Internal vs. External Rotation (Weightlifting vs. CrossFit)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ต.ค. 2024
- Should you internally or externally rotate the shoulders when the bar is overhead?
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Incredible, a fitness TH-camr who does his research, and considers both sides of the argument without calling the other side an idiot. Thanks for the great video, and continue making good content coach ZT.
Weightlifting is not fitness. It's a sport.
Its science and hardwork above all else though.
Its a sport
and yet, fitness arrives as a result.
"Physical fitness is a state of health and well-being and, more specifically, the ability to perform aspects of sports, occupations and daily activities." I'm not really sure what the point you're getting at is, sports are very much in the world of fitness.
I don't Identify as Internal or External. I am lateral rotation. Respect my rotation orientation or I will sue you.
fantastic haha
I am a huge fan of your work.
Oh that is the best comment i have seen on a weightlifting video in some time ;)
So is it really Lateral Rotation? No Internal or External Rotation? Just curious
Alex G
Infinite Elgintensity wants to know your location.
I began Crossfit with a strong background in powerlifting, but not Olympic lifting. So, I had to learn the overhead position. I tried using Crossfit tutorials, but never had much success. Finally, I researched Olympic lifting directly, watching tutorials from Klokov and especially Torokhtiy (among others). I also bought Greg Everett's authoritative guide to Olympic weightlifting (2016, 2018). Soon after studying the Olympic lifting approach, my overhead position improved and subsequently become quite strong. Here is a quote from Everett's book (which is highly praised by Mike Burgener, btw) that aspiring Crossfitters might benefit from.
“In the overhead position, the bony points of the elbows should be directed approximately halfway between backward and down. In other words, this will be about the mid-point between full internal (elbow back) and external (elbow down) rotation of the upper arm. Some degree of variation is allowable here to account for individual anatomical peculiarities - the athlete should place the elbows in this initial neutral position and then adjust slightly into the position that feels most comfortable without a dramatic divergence. This [mid-point] position will provide the greatest structural stability for two basic reasons. First, this elbow orientation encourages and allows correct positioning of the shoulder blades and opens the shoulder joint adequately to bring the arms overhead; second, if the elbows are oriented directly downward, the force of the weight must be resisted almost entirely by muscular strength - with the elbows turned back halfway, the elbows’ articulation is no longer aligned with the downward force and the rigid structure of the skeleton can assist in supporting the load to a greater extent.”
In summary, full internal rotation (elbow points pointing back) is not recommended, nor is full external rotation (elbow points pointing down). Somewhere in the middle is considered ideal, as per Everett. My experiences are entirely consistent with Everett's observations - wish I had read them sooner. It is perhaps also worth noting that this "half-way" position can indeed support enormous loads overhead; e.g., Torokhtiy's 562 lb power jerk. Anyway, hope this helps.
It did help, thank you
My life is in the gutter right now and this is taking my mind of things to focus on my hobby in weightlifting. Thanks brother. It's greatly appreciated. Love your content.
Mark I’m here for you man. Keep working and keep fighting. If you need anything just email or instagram message and I’ll help as best I can.
1 year on and Im right there with you Mark.
@@ugukennedy1 we're 3 years later now, but I'm here as well
How's it going mark
How are you, mark?
4:25 this little chinese kid has better form then all of us
vetjoh than.
SP Riggs when I got serious of lifting I started noticing that kids from the age of about 1 (when they can first start walking) to about age 5 have perfect mobility... like klokov level mobility, and perfect deadlift form without trying, perfect thoracic extension etc etc. It seems to rapidly start declining after age 8. I wonder how much it’s environmental (starting to sit down too much, not playing around as much to maintain flexibility) and how much of it is natural from bones fusing and getting less flexible but more structurally sound. Certainly seems to have a remarkable drop off point at puberty, likely due to the quick growth spurts making one’s body mechanics awkward and hard to adapt to in time. Then after that, most people start becoming sedentary and just accepting their shitty mobility I imagine. Either way, it’s kind of beautiful to watch kids move in such natural and elegant ways (wow that sounded creepy) but you know what I mean.
Not perfect. He pulls with a hyperextended low back. I'm assuming they'll train it out of him before it starts to hurt. More important to keep the chest out position when he's starting out.
When I started with my overhead squat I was told I was lacking mobility in my schouders to do a proper one. Then I found somewhere on the webs the que to pull the bar apart while pulling my shoulders to my ears. This puts your scapula in the right position, activates the upper back. Tried it, and behold, an overhead squat.
Hands down best weighlifting channel on youtube. Keep it up!
agreed!!!
Oh man!! You are killing it with this content, thank you soooo much. Honestly, my CF coaches were looking at me like I grew a third eye when I was trying to explain my difficulty with externally rotated shoulders in the snatch. This video was just what I needed to bring my lifting to the next level. Thanks again!
Fred Astaire Why do you do Crossfit?
Of course. Cross fitters don’t know anything.
As a former CrossFit box owner and a former USAW coach, this has been the best explanation of the mechanics of the position that I have heard anywhere, and I wish that I had seen this years ago. My own explanation to my athletes was not nearly so concise and clear.
A lot of good coaches stray away from the push in to the bar cue as well for a similar reason. No relative movement in that direction. I like Greg Everett's cue to pinch the tops of the shoulder blades together. That muscular tension can be felt by even a novice. Good stuff
Thanks for such a well thought-out explanation and great response to Dan Pope's questions below. I'm a CF coach and it's frustrating to see the amount of clips and videos from CFL1 seminars which actively teach the complete opposite to Torokhtiy, Catalyst (Greg Everett) and the Chinese and Russian Olympic coaches.
It really should be a no-brainer when wondering whose advice to follow.
That said, I do hope people understand the positive impact that CF has had on Oly lifting and it's also great that you mentioned it here.
It’s funny I self taught “internal” rotation because I misunderstood the external rotation cue was rotating your hands externally - pits out not forward. It is way more natural and comfortable for me when I realized I was wrong so I kept what worked. Good to hear someone clarify/articulate better than I could.
mmmmm who should i trust... an olympic gold medalist or a lvl 1 crossfit coach???? lol
vetjoh hmmmmhmhmhmmmhmhmhmhmmhmhmh
trust jason blaha
Lol. Very true. But you can’t blame the CrossFit coach. He has no clue what’s he’s doing. He’s just teaching what the franchise taught him. Don’t deviate from the franchise!!!!!
False dichotomy. Many cf L1 course coaches are highly trained and learned from Olympians.
@@iforc cope... thats the hardest cope ive ever heard ever
Tried to front squat today and failed. This is the only video on TH-cam that's been helpful in pinpointing where my weaknesses are!
Hey Zach, enjoyed the video and this is a question I get asked a lot about too. I'm a physical therapist who works for power monkey fitness. We do a lot of continuing education for olympic lifters I agree with you that driving the head through increases torso angle (and creating the shoulder internal rotation as a result). i think this torso angle is going to create a stronger squatting position and allow larger weights to be lifted. What concerns me is that a more inclined torso position causes more flexion of the shoulder joint and also glenohumeral internal rotation (The internal rotation due to lat / pec restriction forces IR to get more flexion). Large amounts of shoulder flexion and IR also impinge the rotator cuff (There's actually a rotator cuff test called Neer's test which replicates this position). Because of this I don't really agree that shoulder IR and hyperflexion at end range is really a "safer" position for the shoulder that will allow you to lift longer without surgery. Also, when people have rotator cuff impingement they generally lose the ability to fully flex the shoulder (especially with added internal rotation) mostly because we know that this position compresses the rotator cuff. In regards to this position creating the most stable position to support load overhead and activate most shoulder blade musculature, I fail to see why. (If you have some sound logic I'd love to hear it). I honestly think the reason why these lifters do well with these positions is because they've built tremendous strength and capacity in these positions over the course of a lifetime (and starting at a very young age). We know that in a lot of sports the body adapts when we stress it through a period of development (boney changes in baseball throwers, boney changes in the hip for hockey/basketball). The body tends to adapt well over time if we consistently stress in a well periodized way especially while still developing in youth (but maybe not so well in the 40 year old trying olympic lifting for the first time). I'm curious as to why you think cueing external rotation leads to future problems? I think the external rotation cue (because I use that cue myself) helps to facilitate posterior tilt of the scapula (to free up some room for the cuff) and minimize some of the end range flexion and internal rotation (which also compresses the cuff).
I also tend to disagree that lifters can get deeper with less hip abduction / ER. Generally find the opposite and depth improves with more toe out in the squat (which allows a more upright torso and therefore less flexion/ IR of the shoulder). I do however agree that groin tightness can limit depth and hip abduction at bottom of squat. Didn't mean to be a troll and am genuinely curious of your thoughts. I'm a biomechanics nut like yourself and think probably way too much about this topic. We teach some of the cues you teach against and this is a topic of discussion between myself and the other coaches at power monkey fitness (we have a few olympians on staff as coaches). Definite goal is to keep athletes safe at the end of the day and keep them doing what they love.
Thank you for watching. I'll try to provide as much as I can as a response so here goes.
Lets start with this:
"What concerns me is that a more inclined torso position causes more flexion of the shoulder joint and also glenohumeral internal rotation (The internal rotation due to lat / pec restriction forces IR to get more flexion). Large amounts of shoulder flexion and IR also impinge the rotator cuff (There's actually a rotator cuff test called Neer's test which replicates this position). Because of this I don't really agree that shoulder IR and hyperflexion at end range is really a "safer" position for the shoulder that will allow you to lift longer without surgery"
Aleksey never says to increase torso inclination. It's assumed that torso inclination will occur in the squat but only to a certain end it can be beneficial. Inclination is always secondary to neutral/safe posture. If you watch elite weightlifters they have the distinct ability to hinge and unhinge at the hips while squatting and limit the posterior tilt of the scaps. There is IR but it is controlled and it is static. When he says that teaching external rotation is dangerous by jokingly stating they will require surgery, he is simply saying that when you load this position it will end up to be harmful as your capacity increases. What I said at the end of the video is to not deliberately cue external or internal, rather to focus on missing pieces in the squat.
Next:
"In regards to this position creating the most stable position to support load overhead and activate most shoulder blade musculature, I fail to see why. (If you have some sound logic I'd love to hear it)"
I understand what you mean by this point entirely and again it not be true that it is the most stable position IF the lifter is (what CrossFit L1 staff would call) an immature squatter. However my logic behind internal rotation providing the most stable support derives from an olympic gold medalist who has snatched more than any american in human history telling me so. Pair that with the teachings of coach Jian Ping Ma, who STRONGLY advocates internal rotation, and you may see my logic (coach ma currently coaches multiple world champions and world record holders) please see: instagram.com/p/BfGhlv6Btit/?hl=en&taken-by=mastrength.
Next:
"I honestly think the reason why these lifters do well with these positions is because they've built tremendous strength and capacity in these positions over the course of a lifetime (and starting at a very young age). We know that in a lot of sports the body adapts when we stress it through a period of development (boney changes in baseball throwers, boney changes in the hip for hockey/basketball). The body tends to adapt well over time if we consistently stress in a well periodized way especially while still developing in youth (but maybe not so well in the 40 year old trying olympic lifting for the first time)"
It's interesting you bring this up because this is what I do. I have periodized programs for 20+lifters and have written hundreds of weeks of programming. Many of these lifters have had issues with hip abduction in the squat. Many of these lifters have had issues getting proper depth. Many of these lifters started lifting in there 30's. Not once have I cued external rotation to fix this issue and over the course of 12-16 weeks they fix these issues with TIME and LOAD. If I could show you the progress of one of my masters athletes and his bottom position, front rack, and overhead position, I would. I also have coached 1,000 hours of CrossFit classes (I recieved my L1 in 2013, stopped coaching in 2015, I also have my NSCA-CSCS, USAW-L2, NCSF-CPT). What I can honestly say is that the efficacy of providing a lifter with simple cues and minimal specific practice is nowhere near what I have done for any of my current lifters.
" I'm curious as to why you think cueing external rotation leads to future problems? I think the external rotation cue (because I use that cue myself) helps to facilitate posterior tilt of the scapula (to free up some room for the cuff) and minimize some of the end range flexion and internal rotation (which also compresses the cuff)."
It's because it avoids the abilities necessary to acquire the posterior tilt in the scaps (and maintain said tilt throughout the squat). The person who's scaps are being pulled anteriorly during a squat has end range capacity issues in the lower body that can be built up with proper time and load. Also the ideal position explicitly stated by aleksey himself in his teachings allows for posterior tilt of scaps and glenohumeral internal rotation (facilitated by pressing upward into the bar) As weightlifters you need to have the ability to separate the two actions, something that an untrained lifter struggles with.
Next:
"I also tend to disagree that lifters can get deeper with less hip abduction / ER."
Agree or disagree the lifter I used as an example (in the video) CAN NOT get deeper with his current hip abduction capabilities or lack there of. He avoids abduction to get lower. I'm not stating that is what you should do, Im stating that is what is happening and what does happen to many untrained lifters.
This is the best I can do for times sake, I'm much better at specifically addressing points of performance through dialogue than in writing so please forgive me for the sloppiness. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comment and I hope to see more comments from you in the future.
Best,
Zack
Hey Zack, thanks for the response! I've heard the same argument from elite coaches for the IR but I still see a lack of sound logic / reasoning. Just because its a strong position to support load doesn't mean it's naturally safe. Maybe the athletes who can tolerate these positions well don't get hurt and move on to win due to their natural ability / work ethic and ability to tolerate these positions without getting hurt.
Not sure I follow you with the discussion on scapular tilt. In my mind an external rotation cue will actually force scapular posterior tilt (not the opposite?). The GH IR with scap posterior tilt does make sense to me though. Sounds like a good idea.
Definitely agree with the time and load and agree that fixing issues downstream can certainly help upstream (basically what we teach at power monkey). The overhead position naturally tends to take care of itself generally.
I've also coached CF for 6-7 years, competed nationally in a strength sport, written programming for hundreds of athletes, was a full time S and C coach (2 years), worked with olympic level coaches and athletes (for physical therapy and collaboration with speaking). I don't say that to sound boastful but to let you know I know where you're coming from. That being said, I have also seen a bunch of athletes who get hurt in these positions that are "safe" (I'm not saying it's conclusively dangerous I'm just saying that I see people who get hurt so I can say that it certainly happens sometimes). Just as a therapist who works with a lot of lifters you eventually see people get hurt. Tough to know the cause but I'm still cautious because of the specific injuries seen in weightlifting (impingement) and the movements of the joint that recreate the mechanism of injury (hyperflexion and IR). When you're working to return that athlete to sport and keep future athletes safe, these thoughts come to mind.
@@fitnesspainfree Russians teach IR, chineses teach IR, basically any elite lifter uses that position, and so does everyone else at every level.
Anybody with adequate mobility can tolerate that position, the internal rotation is actually very very slightly and very often not even coached directly BUT it will help a lot with getting the upper back and shoulders tight, in contrary to the armpit pushed forwards of crossfit.
Shoulder injuries in weightlifting are very rare eventho loads, volume and frequency of overhead work are huge, that means the position clearly works; exactly the opposite thing happens in crossfit.
The logic is incredibly simple, this is the strongest position to hold huge weights overhead and comes after a century of research and application on the field.
Have you ever tried holding a 2x bodyweight snatch with that crossfit dude position in this video and how stable was it?
Federico Melis I can agree that a lot of elite coaches teach this position and are very strong to your point. I work with two US Olympians Cheryl heyworth and chad Vaughn who do not actively teach IR, nor did they use those positions during training. I’ll argue that the strongest position is not always the safest. I’m not trying to fear monger about lifting being dangerous but if you look at the research about injuries in Olympic lifting you’ll see the shoulder is typically the most injured joint (up there with the knee and lower back depending on the study). Lastly as far as I know there is no research about what the Safest position is. If there is I’d love to have you share it. To your point I’m not as strong as those athletes but have done jerk recoveries with 425lbs (I weigh 180) with that “crossfit” position.
You dont intentionally internal rotate, its somethihng that naturally happens to different degrees when you set the scapulas and shoulders properly to stabilize the position.
That's the way it gets taught, from russians to chineses to Greg Everett and so on, they don't teach an intentional IR, and honestly the IR isnt even much at all, it's more something in between.
The most common injured joint is the lower back, then knees and shoulders, and the rates are honestly fairly low compared to the huge amount of work weightlifters do, we are talking people training up to 15 times a week since youth.
Don't you think we would see incredibly high rates of shoulder injury if basically anyone was using the "unsafe" overhead position?
With everyone i mean kids to amateurs to low tier, not only the elite that might have adapted or be more suited to it as you guessed.
Also, do you think Soviets would develop a system based on huge research in the labs and in the field with the unsafe overhead position in it? And then the rest of the world decided to adopt it and even research more on that and stay on it?
The point is, you are not causing any impingement or whatever else risk in that strong position, the internal rotation is extremely sublte and more of a way to set the shoulders right, why would it be unsafe?
On the other hand the ER position we can see in the video or in many crossfit boxes is extremely external rotated, and extremely unstable, how can it be safer?
It's also a position that came out very recently because most beginners in crossfit could not achieve the positions that are usually taught in weightlifting. I can't see how it can be superior in any way.
Crossfit coaches are NOT Olympic lifting coaches. Olympic lifting in crossfit is what boxercise is to boxing
too much boxercise 😂
First sentence is true. However, at our Crossfit box, we have an Olympic Weightlifting coach who competes in the sport. He teaches Olympic lifting twice per week to our Crossfitters. More common than you might think.
I think that is changing. Our box has two coaches that are Olympic lifting qualified (no L1 or CF). We also have pure Olympic lifters coming to the box to teach us. I know not everyone is a CrossFit fan but it does adapt and so improve.
The head coach at my CrossFit Weightlifting Seminar was a 2016 Rio Olympian in Weightlifting.
Dont forget his example of Coach Kevin who created Harrison Mauris... the best Olympic lifter in America at 20 years old... soooooooo theres that.
Thx for this, i struggled with the same dilemma, your thoughts really helped. I will now pay attention to internal rotation in a good torso posture vs. Internal rotation in a rounded back bad posture. This clarified a lot, thx
Brubigo exactly! Always look away from the joint in question to find inefficiencies.
Great video ..love how you critically analysed this topic and didnt just say 1 one is right or wrong but actually tried to figure out y 2 opposing cues exist..mad respect !
Buddy that’s an awesome breakdown of reasons for internal(natural) rotation. I had the same thoughts about it.
Fix the squat first, then worry about all the other movements.
This channel has improved so much in such a short time, fantastic content
Love it. I typically cue “like the ceiling is falling on top of you” and people typically get into a more neutral over head position. But this vid was super helpful and super informative. Thanks!
I really enjoyed your video. I study martial arts where we are constantly taught a strong, correct squat to develop leg mobility. Couldn't agree more about knees over toes and avoiding the rounding of the lower back. I like how you noted the problem lay in leg strength and not correcting further up the body with arm rotation. Sharp observations. Quality vid.
thank you for good video. I was wondering what should I do when I I do press or jerk. In my opinion, Internal rotation is right. Because Internal rotation make scapula be upward and elevated. Then we can keep that space between acromion and humeral head to avoid Shoulder Impingement. And upper traps, pec minor, biceps will work very hard to hold heavy weight.
This video helped a lot. I started internally rotating my shoulders and it was more stable than externally rotating my shoulder.
I tought it could not be possible, but every vid is better than the previous one. Best weightlifting channel hands down.
I do and teach crossfit. For weightlifting and gymnastics I always listen to weightlifters and gymnasts. No questions. And lots of my colleagues do too.
As a PT your analysis of why crossfit teaches external rotation is spot on. I always wondered but this could very well be the answer.
Thanks for this video Zack. I teach yoga and have a structural integration practice (aka rolfing). I have a few crossfitters that attend class that have shoulder pain and I've been watching Olympic lifters like yourself Clarence and others trying to figure out why they are having shoulder issues. I see them retract their scapula and posterior tilt the scapula but I was missing the external rotation they were layering on top. I thought everyone taught the natural IR in the overhead position that I observed the Olympians performing like the Ukrainian Olympian you interviewed in the beginning and now it's making sense why they are having shoulder pain. I'm going to recommend they watch this video. Thanks again.
Thank you for teaching accessible movement. There is no one way, as you mention. All bodies are different, so we should be teaching to the one body. As you say, "observe and fix - don't cue specific things". And this requires paying attention on the part of the instructor. And they have to know how to really dissect movement. Group classes present a huge challenge, because they require that we teach, to some degree, to all bodies. And that's financially inefficient. :) You're a real treat to the world of functional movement, through all means of movement. Thanks Zack.
LOOVE this video. Solid analysis and personal judgement.
You fixed me falling backwards with your explanation at the end, with your words. I paused the video, stayed at 90 degrees able to control all the way to the floor and up and back down again
Great video, thank you so much for these. As a teenager trying to learn in the U.S. without a coach, it can be difficult to get good information.
Awesome video but could you recommend what you *do* consider good cues for holding the overhead position in a beginning lifter? Scapular retraction? Anything else?
Great explanation of understanding the process of movements. Keep up the great content, these help me tremendously with my workouts while learning right now
I don't know if you still think this way but you should definitely take a look at the Chinese, the kings of the snatch. They externally rotate their shoulders as much as possible for the catch of the snatch. Slight internal rotation will happen as you try to stand up from the snatch since your torso needs to be able to lean forward. But the static pressing at the catch is a completely internally rotated static press (for the Chinese). Teaching internal rotation in the catch is going against best practice. I suggest you look at pictures of Liao Hui, Lu Xiaojun and Li Fabin at the bottom of the snatch for examples.
I really appreciate your videos. This video really explains why there ought to be a period of strength and mobility training before adding on heavier weights to the clean&jerk or snatch. Crossfit is usually marketed toward the (for the lack of better term) casual athlete, and their strategy is to try to get someone with no experience to be able to execute these movements in the shortest period of time possible. If every Crossfit coach emphasized on 6 months of conditioning before teaching their members how to do the Olympic lifts, I would imagine that a lot more people would drop out and go to a calisthenics gym. Weightlifting is used in Crossfit as an accessory that adds onto their high intensity program, so it makes sense why they do this. Many who do Crossfit aren't concerned about being the best weightlifter - they are concerned more about becoming a more fit athlete [and those who do wish to focus more on weightlifting end up transitioning into Olympic weightlifting as shown in this video].
Normally, I would say that this isn't morally questionable, but these movements are quite dangerous on their own. Even with good form and execution, overhead lifts carry the risk of permanent damage. You don't *need* to learn the clean&jerk or snatch to become fit. You can simply do every other Crossfit workout and achieve a high level of fitness without risk of damaging your body. Crossfit coaches are morally obligated to teach their students how to do these lifts with proper form and technique, as they are risking physical injuries by intentionally doing otherwise.
IM SORRY
I asked for this video way after you posted this. thank you so much Zachary!
Bloody hell you fixed my squat issues in a video about shoulder positioning.. glad I subscribed.
Love the content! Keep it going! I will say personally I had more shoulder injuries in weightlifting with cuing internal rotation and agree with you in that it should not be cued though it does happen. What are your thoughts on lack of rotator cuff activation with internal rotation? Also, I tend to see in beginners and have felt myself less tricep activation (soft elbows overhead) with internal rotation. Lastly, what are your thoughts on wrist position (extended or stacked) overhead?
I just love your content and this is become one of my favorite videos instantly! Keep it up!
To support Zack’s posture. There are more muscles that assists or do internal rotation and more powerful.
For external rotation we have, infraspinatus, supraspinatus, teres minor and may be middle delt.
For internal rotation we have subscapularis, teres major, lats, anterior delt, pectoralis and indirectly, serratus anterior.
And now the question is, for being in that position, where do you have a bigger and stronger base basing in the biomechanics of the muscles in the upper body?
Give this man a fucking medal!!! 🏅🏅🏅
You are the best online coach...ever..
Great video, but is scapula retraction (like you're supposed to do on a bench press) in addition to a trap shrug part of "..the bar supported by the most possible musculature in the back?" Or does scapula retraction add to "external rotation"?
This is puts everything into perspective. Thank you much for simplifying.
Hey man, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: your videos are top notch! Have you considered making videos about low bar vs. high bar and the bulgarian method?
Finally. An analysis that is fair and helpful and didn't just shit on Crossfit. Great video.
Crossfit seem associate internal rotation with the Humeral head rolling forwards and becoming displaced. In reality, with the proper mobility and teaching, the Humeral head can remain retracted and still be internally rotated, directing the load into the upper back.
Sonny Webster (GB) is a good example of a weightlifter who uses external rotation. You need an upright torso for it to work, which he has.
But look at the position his hips, knees and ankles have to be in to accommodate that. His is flat footed for a start, and his femurs actually internally rotate, the knees end up inside the toes.
So his knees pay the price for the vertical spine. He makes it work, as do others, but he is probably on the hypermobile spectrum and the vast majority of people can't replicate that.
Very good video Zach ! I have man CrossFit athletes that transition to weightlifting and come to my gym, and they have a hard time understanding the proper overhead position !
Wow. Amazing explanation, cleared it up a lot for me. thanks!
So when you clean or snatch, you pull your shoulder blades back and down? Normally I just pull back on the bar like a deadlift, but that doesn’t retract my scapula (just engages my lats)
Excellent video. Completely convinced me to subscribe.
Great video! Is there a way to get more internal rotation, through shoulder mobility or similar? I'm struggling with jerks and snatches overhead as I have imbalanced shoulders one of which partially dislocates regularly, so need more stable and mobile shoulders
Tom Ingram you really need to balance your shoulders or no technique will help
you dont want to internally rotate your glenohumeral joint overhead. external rotation is what will reduce capsular slack and increase congruency of the joint, ultimately leading to more intrinsic stability to supplement what your delts and rotator cuff can generate. internal rotation in the overhead position leads to slack in the capsule connecting the humerus to the scapula and allows for translation movement rather than axial 3D rotation
The Nicks Strength and Power of weightlifting 🤣
So Do I actively try to rotate my arm in overhead squat or do I push against the bar and the rest of the arm will sort of adjust itself
Gosh! I’ve been wondering this issue for years! Thanks man.
Hi Zack nice video, very exhaustive. Greetings from Italy 🇮🇹 👋🏻
So is external rotating wrong ??
I external rotate both in my snatch and CJ since day one and I haven’t encountered any issues 🤔
As always, quality content! would love to see more videos on programming!
Great content Zack, per usual.
Video idea: shrugging the bar up vs pulling yourself under the bar. I want to hear your thoughts on trap involvement and timing in the clean and snatch. I
Awesome video, I had issue with my shoulder from bad Xfit tips. Well done.
I just found your videos. Amazing content you are putting out. Keep it coming
Hi, just wanna ask how do I fix my hyper extension at the OHS position
I really like how you technically lay the smackdown on many things CrossFit in here but at no point blame crossfit or really shit on it. It's all very calm, collected, evidence based and forgiving.
:)
CrossFit: but you have externally....
The Zack: IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW EXTERNALLY ROTATED YOUR SHOULDER IS!!!
After 5 years of externally rotating overhead as CrossFit taught me, I tore my labrum. Spent 2 years in pain, and haven't put a bar overhead since. This matters.
You just answered my question before I asked it o.0 you are the Jeff Cavaliere of Oly 💪🏽🙌🏽
Don’t insult, Telander! He knows what he’s talking about, unlike all the noobs hero and apostle.
Brilliant content ma dude, keep it coming.
Hi, i have a grade 2 AC shoulder injury, what can i do to continue doing my clean and jerk?
what about the set up. would you externally rotate like in a dealift, stay nuetral or prime the internal rotation?
Thanks a lot Zack, I've been concentrating on that external rotation thing as I start adding weightlifting to my powerlifting programme so I am glad to hear what you have to say before I start trying to add more weight. Gonna just observe and see if I can't drive my arms up harder (My shoulders are pretty weak lol).
You're fucking fantastic man. Great video.
I love the video. It's very lucid. Would you say that an athlete shouldn't even start putting weight on a bar for a snatch until he can do an efficient full-squat SOTS press @, say, 45-95#? I can't do it, and I've been screwing around with the snatch (and hurting my shoulders) for a few years now (having been taught external rotation is king). It seems to me, from your video, that unless I've solved the problems below my shoulders, I shouldn't be putting any kind of load on my shoulder.
I transitioned as well from CrossFit to weightlifting, and the internal rotation of the shoulders is one of the first things coaches teach here in Colombia.
Diametric means in direct opposition. So diametrically opposed means direct opposite the opposite?.. Ive heard this so many times, where did this come from?
Best youtube channel
4:29 future podium finisher in the World's or Olympics. Calling it
Had to shoot you a sub man. Your excellent at teaching great form, thanks.
you're great!!! Doing a great job! Please come over Australia to do a seminar! :)
so what movements is it effective to externally rotate the humeral joint??
Excellent video. More please.
This is just the video i needed to watch today, good morning! Off to the weights.
8:09 i believe his name is pronounced like AptI (stress on the last i) AukhAdov. Source: am native in russian and follow the guy myself
Would it be worthwhile to make a video of releasing the thumb when receiving the bar during the snatch?
I'm a Crossfit coach who recently has gotten much more into olympic lifting. I have always felt stronger and more stable with the dreaded "internal rotation" when doing overhead squats or snatches, but I've always been told to externally rotate despite feeling like my shoulders are going to get torn to shreds. Eventually, I just ignored the external rotation dogma and started doing what felt more natural. I think there's a lot of good Crossfit coaches out there who simply don't know. It would be great if they would bring in some more advanced teachers when it comes to the olympic lifts.
Thank goodness to Zach for his videos while learning WL. I have been told I have a weird form and bad thoracic mobility for internally rotating and having my back in an angle while OH squatting or snatching. Meanwhile I am able to continue making progress while they deal with recurring shoulder issues.
Hey Zack! Nice videos! Could you please help me find a video you made, i don't remember the context, but I remember that you was talking about a program and at one point in the video you said something like "someone has called it CrossFit"...
Thx
Sorry my bad English...
Best video on this topic ever.
Really good and informative, thanks man
Another great video! Could you make one on how to hit proper depth in the squat?
It's the little things! Great video!
I have dislocated my left shoulder because of external rotation with Overhead Squats ...Your absolute right man
I feel like whenever I pull my wrists back to catch the bar like I'm told to do, my shoulders are forced externally as opposed to when I push back against he bar with straight wrists I remain in internal rotation.
Hip clean vs normal clean!
Yes! Would like to see a comparison between aleksey's clean and chinese weightlifters clean. A lot of questions come to my mind with this.
This one will happen
I second this! Hip vs normal clean!
What's the difference, I don't get it but I'm interested, please people explain?
Cerdelimo So the difference between hip clean and „normal“ clean. In the normal clean the bar makes contact with your thighs at the first third of it with your arms fully extended. In the hip clean the bar is pulled higher into the hip crease, resulting in mostly an arm pull (bent arm) in someway. Go watch an Video of Aleksey Torokhtiy doing an clean and then watch Tian Tao‘s clean. You can also watch an video of Rob Blackwell of CalStrength although i would say his Clean looks the worst of those 3.
Very informative on weightlifting man, this is the truth 👍
I can''t pick if I should rotate external or internaL???????????
At 2:22, who is the bearded guy in the bottom of the screen? Anyone recognize him from the video of the guy breaking the world record clean & jerk and the snatch? He was in it multiple times, clapping with exactly that same enthusiasm.
Amazing as always, 10/10 information and quality wise (ane evrything else I guess :D). Can you make some video about quad strength? You made video how to improve pulling strength, what about pushing (legs/squat) strength?
So is internal rotation tricep facing back or down?
Great video,
I took the level one three years ago and was taught the external rotation in the overhead squat. but found that I naturally gravitated toward a slightly internal rotation just because it was more stable. It is fantastic to finally understand this more fully! keep up the awesome videos man!
right before my lifting session! today can only be a good training day!
Hey Zack, can you do a video about Smolov training..? I heard about it, I want to know what do you think about it.
Is that a lacrosse photo in the background?
Zack: What is it in 8:11 that allows him (forgot his name) to get into that squat jerk position with the head through position like that. What mobility/flexibility are we all missing to not be able to do this? :) Thanks, great content as always! Big fan!