ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 เม.ย. 2022
- Today we return to smash mechanics after another fairly long break. Today we'll be taking a look at grabs and grab ranges. Covering everything you need to know about them and having a look at every grab in the game form worst to best in terms of grab range!
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So I was actually incorrect about the hitboxes on the grabs, its the other way around. Meaning the grabs effectively have less range when trying to grab aerial opponents. Sorry about that!
Yea. we know
We for sure know
Wasn’t blue pikmin the “grab and throw” pikmin?
@@hugeculo Blue has the strongest throws. I think they have standard grab range though.
yeah, was about to say
It's actually kinda nutty how good gunners grab range is considering it's frame 6. It's actually the best 6 frame grab in the game by a good bit.
Makes sense, their kit is worse at the range where you could usually grab
No need to make it even worse when it's already sub-optimal to use
@@rompevuevitos222 I don't think it's sub optimal actually. If gunner had a kill throw, she would be top of high tier. All of her main projectiles are + on sheild, making her get grabs very easily. That and it makes her have a really good upclose mixup game because she can threaten a grab from places a lot of charcters can't.
@@VideoCentral-bh9tf the issue is that a lot of the projectiles that are + on shield are incredibly reactable
@@weebs1051 for sure, but even if you can react to them doesn't mean you can do anything about it. Her projectiles either force a sheild or them to move, so if they move, you can just either not care, or punish them since the projectiles have so little lag.
@@weebs1051 do me a favor...
Have a friend shield, then use Gunner's grenade at close range, then spam grab. It is a free grab almost every time, as long as they're in range.
I don't know why, but Greninja's pivot grab is just enormous. If you included those grabs, his is among the best
His dash grab is unusable tho (༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ)
@@guacodile2528 that's true, his dash grab is not the greatest
ikr I use it at the ledge sometimes when the opponent does a normal get up
His pivot grab is 3x his size and I love it XD
Yep, it literally teleports the opponent into his grab
5:45 Actually, their grab range was terrible in Melee and Brawl as well.
This was actually relevant in certain matchups in Brawl, there was a few characters in Brawl (such as ZSS, Toon Link, and Peach) that had a winning matchup against them purely because the character is too slippery for the ICs to catch.
Yes, but Brawl ICs's grab hitboxes were so big vertically.
he's not talking about their grab range in melee and brawl when referring to their "crimes," i'm pretty sure he's talking about handoffs and wobbling
I dunno is this was the intention or not, but I think the misplaced verticalness of Ryu/Ken's grabs might be a reference to street fighter in that you can't grab airborne opponents normally.
I absolutely hate the deceptively short grab ranges on some characters.
same
(Cough) Ganon (Cough)
Like sephiroth who grabs with his dick instead of his arm
my main
(cough) hero (cough)
@@neog8029 yeah, if only ganon had bowser grab range
Still find it crazy that palutena’s grab used to be even more disjointed at at 15 range. I can understand other characters like Zelda having a higher grab range cause either magic or extending their hurtbox, but palutena just standing still and reaching that far is still ridiculous to this day.
I mean I guess palu is kinda of also using magic
I'd kill to have the old Palu grab range back. By far my least favourite nerf across all of ultimate's patches.
The reference to the infamous "Kind Dedede" typo from Dream Land 3 at 9:51 made me chuckle out loud; good job, lol
It's weird. Cause small characters like Pikachu and pichu have very short ranges that extend outside their own hit box, but *technically* have the same range as other characters whose grab hit boxes are more disjointed. Very weird.
I play Hero for fun and keep wondering why he couldn't grab when it looked like they were close enough. Now I know why, thank you so much.
It's really annoying.
So fortunate for us that Dedede decided to be kind today.
What?
@@elitecombine5373 brawl dedede has a MASSIVE grab range that gave him infinites on practically the whole cast
@@yellowslotcar It was more that his d-throw had set knockback. After certain %s his chaingrab wouldn't work on some characters.
@@elitecombine5373 Referring to a typo in the video
@@elitecombine5373 9:53
i feel like you should add the frame data to these as well, it would make the reasoning behind the size more apparent
also its weird seeing pikachu and sora have the same grab size but pika's is obviously more negatively disjointed, going with the theme of it having a bad grab like how they normally do.
Funny thing about Ryu and Ken's grab box displacement, in SFIII (and probably most SF games), grab boxes come from a characters foot. Probably just a coincidence that they're both so displaced, but I think it's pretty neat.
Makes sense as maybe they could grab airborne opponents otherwise.
@@4xzx4 that was actually the intention for both games!
Never underestimate Pac-Man's new grab, it's so big and disjointed, and lasts so long it'll suck you in like a vortex if you try to punish it
And cannot be spotdodged.
But he doesnt get a lot from grabs right?
@@godmode3611 he gets an extremely consistent up-throw up air combo at most percents, and a killing back throw at high percents
Length isnt what people are mad about, but moreso how disjointed the grabs are. A lot of grabs in this game are accurate to the model, unlike other games where characters had at least some amount of disjoint
Length is ABSOLUTELY the most maddening thing about grabs. The amount of times standing grabs miss point blank is absolutely infuriating.
And then there's the negative disjoints.
The thing is in most situations the size of the grab hitbox is largely irrelevant and just there to match the model and pose they take while grabbing. What is a much more effective measurement of grabs in terms of utility is the distance from standing as well as the disjoint. Heavy leaning animations like Melee Marth (especially since melee has JC grab) lets them whiff punish with a grab at spacings others can't, and disjoint like Palu has, as mentioned; lets her just flat out beat hitboxes that would have hit her if not for the disjoint. If you measure it that way instead the list looks extremely different.
Large grab boxes inside of the model are only really useful for large characters who the opponent can frequently end up partially inside of the animation like Bowser and DK, or for very fast characters, usually those who have an animation that moves them from their standing location slightly, and so could miss in a scramble, seen in characters like Falcon or Pika/Pichu. After 64 Pika had one of the worst grab ranges in the game because the grab hitbox had basically no range outside of the character model, and that was only fixed in Ult when they just buffed the overall size of the hitbox.
giving the whole "you can't complain about these characters' grab ranges now" while brushing past how puff and pichu's grabs are 90% inside their own hurtbox feels a 'lil silly; raw ranges ain't created equal, which you touched on for palu/zelda's disjoints but not the inverse
Don’t know why he ranked them based off of numeric value only, disjointed grabs are better. Doesn’t matter how big the hitbox is when it doesn’t extend outside your body
@@Mercury-oy1zd and that is fair as far as this ranking goes, it doesn't makes sense at all tho to ask people to stop complaining while also ignoring the single most important factor about grab ranges, it being how far they extend from the hurtbox and collision box of the characters.
Lmao nice Luigi on the thumbnail
Bro XD
In terms of mechanics you could cover, maybe it's time you descended into the rabbit hole of the terrible mechanic known as the gravity penalty, or GravPen!
I never heard of that one, what is it?
@@azellumius8835 It is an attempt to remove the influence of floatiness/fastfalling on vertical survivability, but that targets the wrong stat, ultimately fails to do what it is supposed to do, and inadvertently worsens both the horizontal and vertical survivability of fighters with high gravity stats, despite this stat not being intended to have this effect.
@@TheLobsterCopter5000 didn't brawl and smash 4 also have a similar thing?
@@azellumius8835 Yes, it's the same mechanic
@@TheLobsterCopter5000 Wait, they blatantly fucked up a mechanic, refused to fix it and introduced it into another game afterwards? Damn. Didn't know about that Smash 4 part at all.
The thing I most want for grab range is that I want the ability to grab shields instead of just the character through shield. This will end those funky cases where the entire arm goes into the shield without grabbing, and it will make shielding actually negatively useful against grabs
I have to admit.
Before I realized that Zeckmyro's Icon was thd startup to Luigi Up B
I always thought that Zeckmyro's Icon had a hitbox on his nose.
Ridley would have one of the best grabs in the game if he just fully extended his arms
ice climbers: hey can we get some more grab range we only have ten
samus: you've had your fun
something to note about mac: while his standing grab is ok, his dash grab is actual garbage, but there’s a tech that while not unique to mac, is mostly helpful to him because of his very large initial dash and roll range, where Mac inputs initial dash, cancels initial dash with shield, then buffering a shield grab, letting mac add his initial dash and roll range to his standing grab range, giving him equivalent range to samus’ and dark samus’ tether
I would love to see the frame data on the grabs as well. Like greninja has a longer grab than normal but feels unusably slow
I really wish they'd've buffed Ike's grab range a bit. Since he's so much slower than the other characters tied with him for grab range it's a lot harder for him to take advantage of his throws.
1:35 Shulk go zoom
9:54 Kind Dedede
Ah yes, my favorite Smash character: Kind Dedede at 9:52
I find it hilarious that pichu has a 0.1u longer grab than pikachu. The baby version that is mostly identical can reach further for literally no reason at all, i love that so much
If I remember correctly, in Melee Pichu had a longer grab range than Pikachu which is strange
@@bowserfire39 I’d like to think that since Pichu is a child, it’s possible that since children like to hug/grab tightly, that’s why it’s probably a bit longer.
Not sure though.
Probably because in the smash series, Pichu is meant to be a stronger but lighter version of Pikachu
I always found it vary Weird that Pichu dose more damage than pikachu
Pichu the baby Pokemon hits harder than his next evelotion
@@bowserfire39 well pikachu having more control over his attacks means he often restrains himself from full power to not straight up kill people. Pichu on the other hand has absolutely no control over his electricity, and is ALWAYS using full power, to the extent where he actually hurts himself with it
Well you see, white pikmen aren’t actually that great for grabbing. Big range, but not that much damage or power. But blue is great
(1:00) Agreed; mashing in any game I really dislike. Imaging instead if you could "counter" the pummels by pressing the attack/grab button as the pummel hits you, to reduce the damage. So you'll still have some mechanic to do something when grabbed, but it's not destroying the controller.
That sounds like hell for online. Just have people hold a button, instead of mashing.
@@siveon298 Forgot about online, I never play online
@@siveon298 Or just make the cap for the maximum effectiveness of button mashing lower so that you don't need to mash as hard...and also stop control sticks from counting as inputs in that regard. Don't wanna damage the sticks more than Melee players already have.
I like the mechanic, however it is better with arcade controller
This reminds me mario party and hard CPU have a turbo button. This speed is legit impossible for humans to reach as its frame perfect.
Its odd however how shield breaks are better to shake off with buttons, rather than analog stick, yet bury state, its better with an analog stick....
Unless we are talking about inkling roller one... That one still is an enigma...
9:07 iirc Mii Gunner has the longest ranged frame 6 standing grab in the game.
As a pokemon trainer you've made me realize I should reeeeeally be using grabs more. Also wow I should abuse the fuck out of ivy's grab lmao
For sure, all three Mons have great grabs and get insane reward off of them too. Just be aware that Ivysaur's standing grab is quite slow at frame 13.
All of pokemon trainer pokemon have quite good grab games. Heck they gave a kill throw to all of them.
I love when my characters wraps their arms around someone's ginormous head and instead of grabbing them there's just a little push
EVERY TIMESTAMP OF WHEN HE SAYS pikmin IN THE VIDEO, TOTAL OF 21 TIMES + 1 PLURAL!
10:22 10:25 10:28 10:31 10:54 10:56 10:57 11:18 11:22 11:26 11:30 11:44 11:45 12:03 12:04 12:05 12:22 12:23 12:48 12:48 12:55 13:06
11:22 has pikmin with an S but it counts.
12:48 yes there are 2 pikmin in one second.
If you know, you know.
I know
I dont
One could argue that it's either 12:47 or 12:49 for one of them
@@localidiot450 haha idiot
@@Liggliluff I had so many problems with the seconds not syncing up right for whatever reason, so I just went with the best time. Also 12:49 cuts off the "p"
I thought Sephiroth’s grab would be ranked lower. And wow I had no idea Mac’s grab got buffed from 4.
Loved the video! do one on get up attacks and legde attacks!
Guess Bowser got his revenge by swapping grab ranges with Marth.
Based opinion on mashing mechanics: it's just not fun at all in any game with it and here it also has the potential of making you perform accidental inputs
I love that piranha plant has a bigger grab range than ganon despite not having limbs
Funny you didn't mention Ganon bodyblocking his own grabs, making the range much smaller (although variable, which is admittedly a bit outside the scope of this video). He really doesn't get a break in this game.
Oh, well, at least he has his command grabs, which are actually stellar.
It would be interesting if you went over boost grabs as well. Pichu, pit and shiek get significantly better when you take those into account
I know it is like inhumanely possible, but I could have sworn you can mash out of Incineroar's side B. I think I found it from one of the beefy smash dude's videos.
I think it was actually Pk Beats, and yes in theory, you can mash out of it at low percent and if Incineroar is slowed down (preferably by the timer item) but even at zero percent is insanely difficult to escape
This video really GRABBED my attention
Cool video. I wonder how youre measuring length. Is it relative to how close you can stand (so touching characters = 0 range and it measures the separation)? Or just foot position? Or something else maybe?
"At 11.9 we have pikachu and zorua"
(Among us impostor noise.)
I'm so glad King Dedede has finally become Kind
I think it would've made more sense to measure from the edge of the character's chest hitbox (or collision box if those exist here) to the tip of the grab hitbox to account for how characters can't stand inside each other in Ultimate
Why does squirtle have a kill throw. Ganon the master of evil has no kill throw but a turtle can toss you into the shadow realm
I see Dedede only has a top tier grab range when being nice
I just lost it when we cut to gameplay to see Shulk plummeting to the depths of Hell with Backslash
Luigis grab is super jank
0:59 This does bring up something that I've been thinking. I get that coding is hard and that Rome wasn't built in a day though these people are probably masters of their trade and so certain issues that shouldn't be there in the first place kind of make you wonder what is actually going on with the developers aside from Sakurai and about how Nintendo Studios design games. Just some food for thought from someone who has never coded a single project in his life and a curious question I've been having in my head for a while now, since I don't really 100% understand the scale and magnitude of these games from the eyes of much more experienced teams and I think that it would be cool and neat if Nintendo could explain that to its fans. Maybe upload something on their Social Media or give us some in-game "Developers Journals", something neat like that for reference.
From what I know its a relic of the old age of arcade games. Most notably, the fighting game series "Guilty Gear" still has button mash in as a mechanic when you're hit with a specific kind of stunning attack, even in the most recent entry "Guilty Gear: Strive" (came out just last year). I believe it was first introduced in the title "Guilty Gear: Accent Core", first debuting as an arcade only game before coming to console a few years later. Its also seen as a casual friendly mechanic because anybody can mash buttons, but you'd be surprised how long it takes to teach someone the concept of directional inputs. Rivals of Aether 2 has actually addressed this issue since they've decided to add grabs. Instead of mashing buttons, you just press the same pummel button (there are two types of pummels in that game) that the opponent choses and you break free. Is it better? Can't say, as the game isn't out, but that innovation and creativity is something I'd like to see Smash 6 experiment with (if there ever is one)
@@Blade_the_Cat Yeah, there should definitely be more options to escape grabs. Projectile characters like Snake and Duck Hunt have already shown us some potential to escape some grabs, maybe, just maybe, there should be a secondary set of attacks called counter-throws in which the character can, if they have the right ability to be able to since some characters won't actually have counter throws and instead have their tools to avoid being grabbed in the first place, take whatever throw the opponent might have given them and counter with their own throw. Of course, this would need some serious labbing in order to make it simple and easy to keep it in line with how Sakurai created the Smash games to be a simple party game though I do believe that it is doable to implement a system like this, maybe not as complex as I described though it definitely has to be more efficient and practical than I described. Like flashing colors, since Smash did that with their death animations.
We need to see R.O.B's hitboxes next xD i have a feeling that it'll be funky lol
(1:00) Is there any details of how exactly mashing works? Which buttons can be used? How often are inputs registered? As in, can you get really good results without having to destroy the controller?
The Smash Wiki has a great article on it. Basically, the best way to mash is just to rotate the stick in a quick circle while pressing random face buttons. When you begin to flash yellow (meaning you only have a few frames left until you escape), stop pressing buttons so that you don't accidentally input something when you escape. Just keep rotating the stick until you're free (or thrown, in most cases)
@@matthewhitchcock9555 if I am remembering correctly, you should not rotate the stick and press buttons at the same time because the game will only register one input at a time so doing both at the same time will actually make your mashing slower. It is most effective to choose either only rotating the control stick or only pressing face buttons. It should also be noted that the trigger buttons are just worse for mashing out of grabs than face buttons.
@@nathanaellazaro3347 I don't think so? But maybe you're right
But triggers and bumpers are definitely not buttons that should be pressed yeah
just wondering what was palutena's value before the nerf? because i remember it being kinda nutty
I’m glad I watched this. I main fox and wario and after playing wario for a while and switching to fox I would miss grabs constantly and could not understand what was happening. Now I know lol
One thing I was thinking is that they could add a crouch grab to also hit opponents lying on the floor (missed-tech)
you should do this from the end of their standing hurtbox to the end of the grab because unit collision makes it so that many of the larger bodied characters (like ridley, rob, and DDD) can't use most of their grab length
If it weren't for the length of the hitboxes, the thumbnail would be very suggestive
Maybe for the next mechanics cover wall jump/cling/tech/other interactions. They seem really derpy and I can never quite get how they do what they do
Great video!
Is there frame data associated with acting out of dashes like dashdancing, foxtrotting, or instant dash attacks if that's of any significance? I think that'd be a neat thing to look into, though unsure how useful
Ganons grab range should not be worse than Roys and Chroms. I could see if it was frame 6 but it's frame 8, the same as Bowsers and K. Rools which has SIGNIFICANTLY better range at 20 units rather than than the sorry a$$ 14 units.
The devs did Ganon dirty
I wanna see grab range with grab speed ranked, like byleth grab is slightly better than banjo, banjo has .9 more than byleth but comes out a frame faster, where joker is a lot better than little mac, joker has .6 less range but it comes out 3 frames Faster. And tether grabs could be separate from normal ones if need be, but that’s up to you
Min Min needs it as her grab has the slowest startup in the game
Yeah but Min Min bad according to the video
I just want to know that nice sound that plays in the end
Can I just say it is hilarious that Pichu grabs Bowser by the nose
0:42
7:27 LOL, this made me laugh so hard, I main cloud and I complain about his grab range a lot. Good to know that his is actually pretty standard
One tier list I think would be fun is an Airdodge/Airdodege distance tier list. We always say Ness has the best but HOW good is it compared to other characters?
Airdodge distance is practically uniform among the cast
Ness and Lucas are tied for the longest, followed by Mythra in 2nd. Literally every other character in the game except those listed here are tied for 3rd, followed by Bayonetta and Steve in 4th, Pyra in 5th, and Little Mac in dead last because why wouldn’t he be
@@dunsparce3883 ^^^^
@@dunsparce3883 Pyra's is worse than Bayonetta's!? I always feel how terrible Bayos airdodge is whenever I play her, but I play Pyra a lot and I never noticed her airdodge being especially bad. Weird.
10:39
*Big purple rod coming out between big purple DK's legs*
Impressive indeed
0:40 - 4:15
nice info on grabs
60 frames (1 sec) for a re-grab and some characters having ungrabable parts
props to Pacman for the largest Grab that isn't a projectile of sorts
Ness literally holds you with psychokinesis why does he need to grab you physically with his hands
Really surprised by Sephiroth grab, I always feel like it's inexistant when I play
Tho it might be because, looking at his animation being like magically grab and holding your opponent in place instead of literally grabbing it in his hand, I expected him to have a similar grab to Mewtwo, definitly not to Cloud or Belmonts
9:55 Kind Dedede
Nice thumbnail. Luigi's really packing that plunger
I laughed at IC’s range knowing how ironic it was - was this the same in their previous appearances as well, or a sure fire why to prevent IC’s inherently broken nature?
2:00 clutch sonic matchup knowledge
"Popo's And Nana's Passable and Neat" hitboxes ?
Can you do a tier list for Standing grab oos? It would change up the list because some characters like rob have a bad range oos because a lot of the grab is in his body. Also, some characters like Meta Knight don't shift forward so being pushed off the shield because of collusion outranges the standing grab.
Yeah, unfortunately just looking at raw hitbox size isn't that useful, the important thing is how big the gap between the two character's hitboxes can be for the grab to still connect.
A new Smash Mechanics, surprising
The one thing no one noticed is that this video doesn't account for where the grabbox is placed on a character for example Ness and pythra have the same grabbox but ness' is halfway through his model and since you can't pass through characters in this game his grab range is actually shorter than shown but since pythra's is barely through their model they have a larger grab range than shown
Do fall speed, it doesn't get talked about nearly enough yet it's so important.
If there were to be a grab tier list you gotta include the speed and hurtbox shifting of a grab besides it's range
Crazy Steve got an antiair grab
Because Hitgrabs are also grabs, so they trade with grabs or do they beat them because they're hitboxes, as well?
Okay so something I wish was mentioned is hitbox placement, so cloud and pyra and mythra have the exact same hitbox but pyra/mythra's is clearly much better because the hitbox is placed closer to the fingertips, clouds grab only extends like a pixel past his fingers while pyra mythra have a big ass disjoint
Huh .. weird how certain grabs feel to be more ranged, but they arent and vise versa.
I thought that sephiroths grab range was dog shit. Or hell even ganon too lol
pure hitbox length doesn't matter that much (a hitbox far within the character's model rarely does anything). It's more about the placement, disjoint and collision interaction.
@@qwormuli77 im fully aware of that.
I meant it from despite the distance given, the placements of it are way depended on character model.
If it were just LIKE models... Pikachu would be able to grab 1 pixel upclose lmao
@@deoxysandmew2162 Definitely. You just said _you thought_ they were dogshit, implying they aren't. They are.
At least Inkling has a long Dash Grab! yay!
I'm not exactly sure what is going on with the way you're measuring this, but functionally, you have to be closer to grab someone as cloud than as wii fit, I've played both characters. Maybe it's because cloud leans in more so it's less disjointed?
1:58 (talking about gameplay the background) CPU moment.
Olimar does not care that each character "only has 1 grab", and has 9 different grab ranges
Luigi is packing in that thumbnail.
Oh ye, grabbin things.
Another good vid my man.
do different characters have different item throw distances?
fun fact: before 13.0 palutena had a longer standing grab than villager
Give it back...
bruh luigi is packing in the thumbnail
Could you do a follow up video on little mac? Im intrested to see if your impression of his viability in ultimate has changed
And relating to Mac. He didn't talk about how there are roll cancel dash grabs that every character in ultimate has access to. And Mac benefits from doing this grab.
9:52 ah yes. Good ol' Kind Dedede
You got me started. I play much of the cast at this point
Ive been out here playing duck hunt, lucario, corrin, pokemon trainer, little mac, min min, piranha plant, banjo, miis, and so on. Just have no friends.