ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.พ. 2022
- Once more, we will be taking a look at the stages of smash ultimate. This time we finish out having a look at the final stages of smash ultimate. That being the DLC stages released after the original two videos. So enjoy this little revisit to the banned stages series.
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Kinda hate the “cutting stages for being too similar thing”, I feel like there’s a better solution than to intentionally make the stage list more boring
It's time consuming.
If they didn't care about time constraints Smashville's platform would still move.
Because legalizing them just wastes time and complicates the rules while not really adding anything.
@@Liezuli It adds a lot if you have eyes and ears, Ultimate doesn’t have this problem AS much as other Smash games but diversity is nice. Perhaps these stages could be lumped together in some way? I dunno, I’m not a pro-Smash player but I do watch it from time to time
@@tuxedobird What matters to the players and most of the audience is the gameplay itself, which is heavily influenced by stage layout, and not the music or aesthetics. Which is why people tolerated over a decade of smashville, despite it having sleeper music and visuals.
@@Liezuli if ur going competitive you should be using your brain
I'm surprised you didn't mention Yoshi's Story being fixed. The fruit no longer spawns with hazards on.
He did say in an older video he doesn't think that stage should be legal.
Maybe his opinion hasn't changed, but I agree it should have been brought up.
HOLY SHIT YESSSSSSS
Ultimate players when the stage has a slight slope or a tiny background element: "Waaahh! This is unplayable!"
Melee players when the stage allows for infinites and you can literally just randomly clip through it: "Excellent!"
I never actually put together that the Home Run Contest walls are the same as the KOF Stadium walls
They're not, just similar.
HRC walls have a sort of health system while with KOF it's a simple knockback threshold.
Yggdrasil would be so cool to see in top level cause if it was picked often people would memorize the timing and position of the plats give something to play around (like T&C and Smashville but more extreme)
Also fun fact: The platform spawn after a Slime appears in the background
The altar....
Yeah, it'd be nice to have another more dynamic stage in the mix, even if not in every ruleset. Plus, having another soundtrack to listen to is always a bonus
Yeah, being forced to adapt and integrate stuff like that into the meta is one of the only things I respect the Melee community for. They made an equation to know where a cloud platform will be at all times!
I feel like all the big stages like Mementos, Yggdrasil, and Minecraft World would've been fine with Team matches. Way more space to move around and isn't really that problematic to play around
That was the cleanest pronunciation of Yggdrasil I’ve ever heard
As someone who heard it pronounced in the game its from, I'm disappointed
@@TheRealBatabii mentos
@@TheRealBatabii meme entos
Honestly an unironically good way to decide on a stage list is music. Hollow Bastion is better than Smashville because there's already a stage with Animal Crossing music. Northern Cave is better than Kalos for the same reason. It's also why I prefer Small Battlefield to PS2
Funny you should mention music since copyright strikes were a reason some stages were banned during the Smash 4 days.
It’s too bad you can’t makes playlists for specific smash original stages
Like putting some of the banned stages franchise music onto battlefield (I’d certainly think people would love to listen to castlevania or kid icarus music in competitions)
This on top of many other reasons is why I think we should legalize Northern Cave and Hollow Bastion.
Ps2 makes the best games
@@jmurray1110 You can listen to any song in the game on the smash original stages
"But the thing about Ultimate is that we have options."
And yet all of these options get banned for reasons that wouldn't have gotten stages banned in the past and shouldn't get banned currently. So with the current competitive philosophy, we don't have options because no one wants to see how these stages function in an actual tournament setting.
When you have a lot of options you can afford to have more scrutiny.
Which is why Fountain of dreams is banned in ult. In melee you don't have much of a choice without losing a good portion of stage options.
@@ivrydice0954 it's banned because of framerate issues as well, if i remember
@@sonny259 IIRC that got fixed in a patch for everything except Wario's bike.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
@@ivrydice0954 that may be true, i don't really play on dreamland
It's only because we actually have options that we can afford to be much pickier than before.
Tbh i don't see the reason to ban stages that are fine, even if they are redundant/not optimal compared to similar stages. As long as there isn't anything that makes it unfair to one player or another, the stage should be fair game. For example, Smashville and Hollow Bastion. They are basically the same stage with nothing that really makes one better than the other, so why not just let people pick the stage that has the aesthetic they like?
Exactly. I guess because I play casually the whole stage banning doesn't make sense to me. Like a very slight slant causes discussion about it.
The problem with this is that if there are 3 Smashville-like stages and you don't want to play on Smashville, since you usually only have 2 bans in competitive, you can't prevent your opponent from taking you to Smashville if their character has a clear advantage on that stage. A counter to that could be to just increase how many stages you can ban but that would only be more tedious.
He explained it in the first videos, but it’s because you can ban 2 stages in tournaments. So you could ban smashville and sora’s stage, but then there’s another identical stage that they could still pick.
So you're saying, legalize Wily Castle?
@@randomguy8107 Personally, I think if we are to allow similar stages, we should make a "clone stages" category, and when you ban a stage it also bans that stage's clones. So, as an example, banning Smashville would also ban Hollow Bastian.
Honestly, with the additions of Small Battlefield, Northern Cave, and Hollow Bastion, we basically have the hazardless versions of PS2, Kalos, and Smashville without actually having to turn hazards off. This effectively means that we can keep hazards on and bring back the old Smashville with the moving platform.
Though if you ask me I never understood why hazard toggle wasn't just an option on the stage select screen instead of needing to manually select it in the rules. Feels kinda dumb to have the legal stagelist affected by a shoddy menu option.
The hazard toggle needs a complete overhaul to let you turn off individual elements of a stage in a way you want, but if not that then just let us press the the little icon that indicates whether hazards are on or off on the stage select screen to toggle hazards in the way the ruleset option currently does, this would also allow us to use the hazard toggle in training mode.
the issue is hazards off ps2 isn't exactly identical & is the single most popular stage to play on, removing it would be like removing smashville from smash 4 play
It still blows me away that Smash players are so vehemently against anything outside the “accepted” stage meta. Even with Sakurai clearly trying to make more competitively balanced stages, the community won’t even do a trial run for them.
Look at Tekken and Soul Calibur, those game has a huge variety of stages layouts, and some that even let certain characters 0 to death you, (looking at you Geese Howard Estate) but the communities actually embrace that and you just know certain stages are better for certain characters.
And then you see games like SF5 and MvC3 in tournaments and all they play on is the training room, so...
@@OGEdger in SF and MvC stages are purely cosmetical, but training ones gives you more information
I love that Steve is the *only* reason apart from being a bit too similar to Smashville that Minecraft World is banned.
Honestly, I really don’t see the issue with Ygg, like…what’s wrong with the appearing and disappearing platforms? It rewards those who memorize the spawn order, and even if some platforms can lead to a very clear shift in advantage, it’s not like those platforms stay forever.
It’s fucking massive that’s the issue. No one wants another huge stage to get camped out on that turns into fd half the time
there's nothing wrong with it, and it often sees legal play in tournaments now, smash players are just a bunch of crybabies that don't want to leave smahville
There was one point with Hollow Bastion I was hoping you would bring up but you didn't, but it's one of the dumbest arguments against a stage ever: the glass pane appearing at the final stock apparently being distracting and blinding. It's baffling considering both Brawl and Smash 4 FD were way worse with distracting background effects. Another argument is motion sickness, which also is argued against Spiral Mountain, but I think it's a lot more warranted there when the actual stage you're fighting on rotates but your character doesn't.
The thing is, on HB with hazards off the dive into the heart for some reason does not occur at all even though it functionally changes nothing besides Steve's resources slightly. So it's even more stupid than you think it is bc they can just turn off hazards and the stage would only change visually.
@@aronspiker72 honestly I wish Hazards Off HB started in Dive into the Heart instead.
Also Final destination in this game has insane background effect’s but it’s like one of 3 stages competitive players use
Smash players whenever anything dynamic happens: *BAN*
But actually though: what's wrong with stages that have slopes/inclines? I understand the asymmetric stage layout problem just fine, but as far as I'm concerned slopes are just another thing to play around and get used to. A positive complication.
Certain characters (think dk spike) can get ridiculously op 02death setups, where the slope bounces characters straight back to another hit
@@CN-yb5gn You mean like certain characters getting ladder combos using platforms on BF layouts? To me it's not really any different.
@@Cheezmonka Or how Bowser Side b kills stupid early on BF layouts. Smash players can be babies sometimes, there's literally no difference.
They HATE trigonometry.
slopes kinda do weird things to stage control, especially when it's an asymmetrical slant ex. castle siege or mementos. the player at the top of the slope is at a slight advantage, as fewer moves have hitbox blindspots above than below, which is exacerbated when one of the characters is really small (think ledgetrapping kirby, pichu, olimar on yoshi's story)
i don't think slopes are inherently a bad thing (as long as they're fairly subtle, looking at you yoshi's island brawl), but smash stagelists have always been slowly trending towards simplicity. removing as many divergent factors as possible is a reasonable goal, but everyone is going to have different standards of what's acceptable divergent gameplay, and slopes are a strange grey area where they're not degenerate like a lot of other stage geometry irregularities, but they still have a subtle yet notable effect on neutral and punish games that could be evaluated either way
Melee: has like 3 legal stages and one of them is Pokémon stadium, the glitchiest mess ever
Ultimate: nooooooo you can’t use a stage that is like another stage nooooooo there’s a slant aaaaaaaaah!!!
Most Melee tournaments will use a hack to make Pokémon Stadium static unless Nintendo is involved with the tournament.
@@jamesalexander5559 yeah I know, it’s just funny how picky people are about which ultimate stages are used
@@jamesalexander5559 That wasn't until recently, Pokemon stadium in its vanilla form was the tournament legal version until around 2020
@@samplesimple0 Frozen stadium has been used in since like 2017. It certainly got more more popular in 2020 though. Not that it matters since Melee has 5 legal stages even without stadium.
@@susparia4724 you don’t understand. Ultimate players have the luxury to be picky with the stagelist because of the amount of stages in the game. Melee does not have that luxury
Ultimate really did try to make the new stages better balanced towards casual and competitive play, so we don't see as many bad new stages as Brawl and Wii U.
Only in competitive smash is "favors the intended mechanics" a reason to ban a stage...
People want to ban Northern Cave because of the background, when the only stages with problematic backgrounds are Fountain of Dreams and Umbra Clock Tower (FD forms, too)
Ironically I find default FD to have the more distracting background. Northern Cave might as well be a static screen compared to FD's dark red vortex lol. Genuinely messes with me every time it happens.
That and copyright issues with the songs on the stage as well
@@JforJonas I don't think the copyright issues are an actual issue
@@flamingpaper7751 All I know is that Twitch VODs have gotten muted in those segments and Fatality complained about getting a copyright claim on a video on that stage
I like the Arms stage, even with the ceiling jank, simply because it's actually pretty rare to run into. Mementos is also pretty fun to play on, but I understand people not liking it for tournaments. KoF should totally be a legal counterpick, I think the stage list should allow some zany picks in certain brackets. I'd love a semi-casual bracket that has FS meter and things like KoF and Mementos hazards off (still no items) as I think that'd make it far more interesting a game.
100% agreed. No more PS2 tryhard BS.
Also why is Minecraft World banned? Who cares if it's "too big" it's reasonable enough.
@@WiiMoteGodYT He said in the video that Minecraft World was banned because it gives Steve a massive advantage over every other character because he'd have easier access to whatever material he needs unlike almost every other stage which gives materials in 1 predictable order. I haven't played Smash in a while but Steve seems to be a pretty unfun character to play against for most players so him having a massive advantage because of the stage rather than matchup, wouldn't that suck if you weren't a Steve player?
@@Zorroark Still makes me sad that
1: Minecraft World is banned (they could have had the material on the stage be the same with Hazards off)
2: Steve is annoying to fight against (He is)
Sad
I'd love FS meter to actually be used in a tournament. Super moves are often the coolest part of watching other fighting games imo, and I was hoping the option of having FS as a non-item would solve this, but no, the competitive snobs still won't allow it.
It just kinda makes me wonder what the point of simplifying some of the new DLC stages to be more competitive if they’re usually not gonna be legal in the first place
It's nice to have "in-between" stages IMO.
I'm not much of a competitive player (I've only been to a few tourneys), but I just don't have very much fun playing on weird stages all the time. Having stages like mementos/northern cave/yggdrasil as options lets me still play the game competitively while also not getting bored with a more limited stage list.
@@Nick_2i I mainly have a problem if they were like super close to being legal
@@Duncaster do y'all just click on these videos to cry in the comments?
By all means, I can understand the dislike for competitive smash, but if you hate it so much why are you here?
@@Duncaster honestly, fair enough
It just comes down to how stage strikes would work in tournament, having multiples would make things more complicated. That said, I do agree that it's kinda stupid to just ban things to avoid dealing with mild complication.
Damn the competitive side really ruin the creativity of the dlc stages they was trying to cater to the people that still won't play other stages
Competitive smash, where 82% of the game is cut.
Sorry, I am not that competitive.
Min Min stage is so cool, the platform layout is cool even tho we have already Smashville and Hollow Bastion, The ARMS soundtrack is incredible.
And Nintendo ruins the stage by adding a ceilling for no reason.
Like, if they were gonna add a ceiling in the first place, the layout should’ve been less “generic competitive stage-y”
I wish hazards off meant the overhead arches became intangible. I mean their tops are already like that. Wonder how much the arches *would* impact a tournament match...
Still a great casual-competitive stage though.
Arms soundtrack incredible? Never played the game but in smash it's just the same theme over and over but arranged differently for each character...
@@elone7744 A lot of Nintendo games do that, man
you'd be shocked to learn about Super Mario 64 and Sunshine's OST
personally I think even without the ceiling, I think the lower part of the stage is a bit too large down there
there's a lot of negative space under the stage and just like Great Plateau Tower, that's a bit too much height
so sadly, even if I wanted this stage legal so badly, I gotta admit it's just not quite
If Cloud Sea of Alrest wasn’t gonna be legal anyway, the cloud sea really should’ve been swimmable
Considering Gramps is endlessly moving forward, wouldn't that mean getting dragged to the blast zone like Jungle Japes and the Midgar Leviathan if you were launched to the left?
@@ArcadianLegend I mean, yes, but it would certainly make the stage more interesting
How they in the sky
@@ken7007 In Xenoblade 2, the Cloud Sea can be swam in, like an actual ocean
@@ken7007 The Cloud Sea isn't actual clouds, it's a mysterious substance that looks like clouds, about as dense as water, covering the whole planet. It's a reference to Noah's Ark, where the cloud sea is the flood and the titans are the ark (or in this case arks).
The reason why NC is played instead of Kalos is because of the height of the platforms. Kalos' platforms are way higher than NC's ones giving characters with great mobility the possibility to circle camp characters who don't have a great mobility. Giving them either a free time out if the opponent doesn't commit to try to get them off the platform, or a free neutral reset/reverse situation if the opponent tries to hit them. In other words, the stage resets neutral for you, polarising some matchups making them unplayable
Oh c'mon we all wanted the slant story
probably glitched off a slant
I still can't believe Ultimate's stage list is so finicky and has so much banned stuff for no real reason, all the while Melee lets people play on Pokémon Stadium, which has 3 asymmetrical layouts and can just straight up be fallen through.
Because melee has no better options for a replacement. Not to mention frozen stadium being widely used now instead.
Part of me wants to see Mementos be legal *so so* bad. Not only because of the Persona aesthetic and music, but the asymmetry is so unique. The left half is Battlefield, and the right half is FD.
Unfortunately, I think the slant and platforms both favor the left side, which any potential campers would absolutely take advantage of T~T
People cry & say it hurts their eyes
@@ken7007 That's FD
I don't think being asymmetrical should be an automatic ban if the other side has a advantage to compensate, like I believe Mententos's problems could be easily fixed if the bottom platform was switched, although I do agree with it's ban
Yeah, and cloud sea of alrest does actually do that. That platform on cloud sea of alrest balances out the asymmetrical main stage, however there’s other problems with the stage that he didn’t mention, like how you can’t wall jump, and how inkling’s ink doesn’t actually work on most of the stage for some reason
Asymmetry is a bit weird. I get why it's considered a bit too much, as it has potential for camping for faster characters, but I also think it's a generally more interesting dynamic to be playing with. Same thing goes to slants in most cases (Lylat is probably the biggest offender of too many slants, though). Smaller stages (and stages with blast zones on the smaller side) being inherently "worse" always felt a bit weird to me too - it's only worse because the metagame is in favor of faster, lighter characters or characters with a ton of mobility that can take advantage of it. If heavies were the dominant archetype and had the most voting power, then I think a stage being larger would be seen as worse. Does this mean we go for extreme examples like Castle Siege or WarioWare? Probably not, but I think a stage being larger is not necessarily better or worse.
Frankly though I think the biggest sin is in regards to having multiple slight variations of different stages - if that's such a problem, why not simply group the archetype for a ban together? If the community is so worried about not being able to ban Battlefield and Dream Land and Midgar or whatever (arbitrary example), can we not just call them "Battlefield-likes" and have a stage ban apply to all of them at once? Anything past a college local in terms of tournaments already have things like stage lists at setups anyway, it wouldn't be a massive stretch to just say Battlefield-likes as one of the listed stages with the individual stages that fall under that banner. It brings variety and gives options without making the bannable stages list as a whole too much bigger.
I'll also still argue Halberd is a good stage until the end of days though, given it's the only stage with a more dynamic change than the platforms above the large slab, while also being a reasonable stage for competitive play, but that's a bit spicier than everything else I've stated so far lol
tl;dr stages need more discussion, as Ultimate is beginning to feel a bit stale with the current stage list, and there's ways of addressing this that aren't the largest shake up known to man
@@WishMakers How to shake the stage list up:
Turn on Hazards
@@TinkC43 Thank you we have a reason to get rid of PS2.
Really wish we could consider a hazards on stage list, especially with Hollow bastion making most of them unique. Surprised you didn't bring those discussions up, since we can have Bastion with Smashville being unique. Though especially with KH music there could be copyright problems.
We probably would but the hazard toggle is too restrictive and having to go into that menu every match would slow down events over time
Hollow Bastion should be a starter in every tournament just like Let's Make Big Moves ruleset
1:56 bruh moment
Honestly they should turn stage hazards back on so there’s an actual reason to run smashville and the kingdom hearts stage together
Is that… a slant???! AHHHH I’M GOING INSAAANE!!
mementos being legal would be a nice mix from all the other super traditional stages, and i think the legal stage list needs some of that
For me all the dlc stages are at least above average
I think Minecraft World should be legalized and Steve should be significantly buffed. Funny block man is my favorite :)
Heck no. You're fine as it is. Steve is also just as powerful without it...
@@Player-jh4ko It'd be even better if he were stronger, though :)
@@Awesomeness-iz3dh Yes, even stronger.
I mean, why don't they Just.... Use the Battlefield/Omega versions of all stages, and then use the aesthetic of whatever the heck people want?
Someone please explain- I'm honestly surprised they don't just do this-
Probably because some stages are visually distracting, I know Bayonetta has one stage that I hate playing on because I just lose sight of characters randomly.
Also I vaguely remember some stages having issues with copyrighted music being played on them, but idk how true that is.
Also, some tournaments actually do this. My local allows it, but I didn't see anyone taking advantage of it while I was there, though my experience is very limited, so ymmv.
@@Nick_2i it can also be because the stage is “2D”, such as Flat Zone or PAC-LAND. This can cause some odd glitches and interactions that wouldn’t otherwise happen.
But in all honesty, I think most competitive players don’t really mind or care what the aesthetics of the stage. Their focus is the match itself, not what stage looks or sounds like.
You know it's way more stages then those worst examples right i guarantee you their actual logic for not using that option because they would go "why would i use that when FD & BF is right"
I shit you not i put Final Destination on the BF version people bitch about it "would you pick this BF is right there" anything that goes against the basic standard they will bitch & moan
There are also plenty of perfectly good stage layouts aside from Battlefield/Omega forms.
Small Battlefield, Town and City, Northern Cave, and Hollow Bastion all have stage layouts that are completely different from Battlefield and FD, but they're all still perfectly fine for competitive play.
yeah like, theres all this discussion about stages being legal because theres this 15 degree slant, when theres battlefield versions of stages. I get that some stages are too visually busy, but thats not like, 90% of the stages, compared to what im seeing here for the currently legal stages
Wait, Northern Cave is legal?
Over here in Germany it's basically banned everywhere because "muh background so distracting"
Ironically default FD has the more distracting background lmao. That damn red vortex.
@@RacingSnails64 considering we played on that stage in Sm4sh, despite omega forms being available... I mean come on!
@@dieblauebedrohung Omega stages had different layouts in Smash 4 over regular FD. Some promoted camping, friction was different, or the stage caused z-axis shenanigans. Some tournaments did allow you to play on a specific Omega stage in Smash 4 (forgot which one) if FD's background bothered you though since it was almost identical.
@@jamesalexander5559 ye excactly. That's basically what I mean. People played on Fd, despite there being alternatives. Maybe you couldn't play on every omega stage, but you could play on some at the very least, and people still didn't do that.
@@dieblauebedrohung Those aren't really alternatives though other than like 2 omega stages and I already mentioned that some regions accounted for that. Sorry yours didn't.
I really wanted Mementos as a legal stage. It would've added something unique to the current pool of stages.
People tried it and it promotes circle camping cause of how big it is
It makes me so sad. Spiral Mountain was so close but that one tiny ledge ruined everything. Other layouts of the stage would've worked fine
I doubt it’d be legal even with it, those plats are VERY close to the blastzone
Plus I’d say that that’s one of the only times when the background is LEGITIMATELY distracting. It personally makes me nauseous.
Aha! I was wondering when this would happen! I'm glad it's finally here
In my personal opinion , using the small features of a stage to your advantage is part of the game. So a lot more stages should be legal
Agreed.
Like as an example, the ARMS stage, the ceiling can lead to some weird angles and let people tech, but that's an intentional part of the game that requires a fairly precise input to pull off.
Literally banning stuff based solely on the potential for using certain very much skill-based moves, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Yes, techs let you survive when you wouldn't otherwise, that's literally the point, and it's not like it's RNG.
No
Man, this video has really reminded me just how absolutely lame and boring the smash stage list is. I really miss when a stage with a slight quirk to it was considered a counterpick rather than just banned in the place of what, like 5 stages now? Like 100 stages and only like 5 get used. Really a shame
(This isn’t to bash the video though. Video was good, I just wanted to get that little rant out)
Honestly, I really like the slight bits of spice some stages can give. No walk offs or mega camping spots obviously, but some asymmetry and minor slopes. And the fact that hazards isn't a toggle like omega and battlefield is tragic, because the stages like smashville that move just a bit were definitely fun.
And dear god the amount of hype Hollow Bastion's transformation could cause in a high stakes match is unreal.
Looking at these stages that released, I'm surprised the DLC Stages were so... simple. Without much wild, considering what surreal environments many represent & how they were to be some of Smash's last stages. I wonder if they were so simple just to appeal to Competitive Smash?
Anyway, neat analysis video Thanks for uploading!
Honestly I think that Hazzards On Smashville should be legal and Hazzards Off Hollow Bastion should be legal thus giving us both versions.
Also Small Battle Field is legal as far as I know...
Too bad you can't select which stages should have hazards or not. Switching from one to the other is tedious, especially for tournament play.
@@arcyarcanine Sure but not impossible
@@CodyTheBlackChickenSubscribe *hold B*
*edit ruleset*
*enable hazards*
*save ruleset*
Again, no one wants to do that for just one stage.
@@arcyarcanine No need to edit just have two sets already made
I dont have this problem, but ive heard a lot of people say that NC and HB make people motion sick or whatever, which is why theyre sometimes banned
I remember the big thing with Northern Cave was the bright white flash when the cinematic is resetting being an issue for certain players' sight which is an understandable thing. Yes the stage is pretty but one should not be able to use epilepsy as a counterpick in tourneys.
@@Triforce_of_Doom tell that to FD.
But yet fd is just fine lmao
Hey they can stay playing the same 6 stages years on end
@@DarkAura19 that was a problem in s4 not ultimate
I don’t really understand getting rid of stages because they “change how you have to approach” or something like that.
Here’s a thought. If it changes how the game works, then why don’t you try *gasp* adapting to the stage?
Precisely. Wanting to get rid of cheap kills and camping makes complete sense, but sometimes, pro players are just pussies lol. Slants make me uncomfortable, but that's *precisely why* they have value as a counterpick option.
However, that's not to say you shouldn't try to prevent camping and other unfair advantages. Take Mementos for example. A slant and asymetrical platforms actually sound like a really really welcome change to me, however, they BOTH favor the left side. Imagine a Belmont camping there. It'd be unfair to the right side, so unfortunately it holds back Mementos from getting legalized.
I've seen plenty of people say things such as that, only to get angry when they learn that the best strategies tend to involve (circle) camping and engaging as little as possible.
I’d just like to give a quick example. I’m currently doing this thing for fun where I take stages and try to make them competitively viable while still making them feel like the original stages. One of these were PS2, and I realized that most of the variants in PS2 were (or should be) viable.
The flying variety just has a fan have you’ levitate, which doesn’t give a certain player any advantages, especially since it’s just completely flat.
Electric just has conveyer belts, which is also pretty alright, although it may promote circle camping. I’m not sure.
Ice is just slippery, and it has slanted platforms. That’s legal.
None of those things give a significant advantage to any character or player, but if they existed on their own they would probably be banned.
@@gareno6713 The fans are annoying and do give characters with more spammable/long reach aerials a huge advantage.
Electric's conveyor belts have slant problems tenfold. It also has random platform layouts.
Ice physics don't affect ice climbers, if we follow the clause to ban Minecraft World because of Steve, the same applies here.
Also, Ground's walls are fairly obvious.
@@monchete9934 You’re not seeing my point.
My point is that people will write off stages that are “annoying” for no reason other than that. I was showing those stages as a showcase of to at. They have gimmicks, but most of the stage layouts are competitively viable, at least on paper. If they do give an advantage to certain play styles or characters, then that’s my bad, but I was trying to convey that competitive players will swap a stage with actual interesting ideas because it’s different, rather than realizing how much more fun and interesting that stage could make the competitive game.
Also, I never mentioned Ground for that exact reason.
That clip at the beginning with Young Link might be one of the most Elite Smash things I’ve seen…
Bro so eager to camp, ran into the Holy Fire that you threw from a mile away, and pulled out a Fire Arrow, and it cost him his stock.
I'm surprised you didn't cover 2 dimensional stages in this series, they affect hurtboxes and hitboxes a lot
I kinda wish they never "fixed" Omega Mach Monastery's blast zones. It was fun being able to play a lower ceiling version of FD, and its not like it really caused any harm since there are so many Ω forms anyway, that one of them not being allowed in tournaments just wouldn't matter.
Wasn't it battlefield?
@@Matanumi It was both versions
The difference was extremely minimal though
I still don't get why "too similar" is a reason to ban a stage.
With so many players just going to FD or Battlefield anyway, why not have these stages that are ever so slightly different in a non-detrimental way just for a different music selection.
Or heck, after 3-20 years of playing the same stages, those differences would probably give people a much needed breath of fresh air
Stage lists may need to be super small anyway, no matter how many good competitive candidates there are, for stage banning reasons
@@jomaq9233 then perhaps instead of banning 20 perfectly acceptable stages for being too similar, maybe use some kind of draft system. Have the Melee fanboys get their favourites of FD, BF and PS, and then let each competitor pick maybe 2-4 stages and they'd have their own pool to pick and ban from. With computers, keeping track of choices on a by-person basis would be simple and you'd avoid having "too many"
Turns out competitive NEEDS to have a small stage pool for stage ban reasons, regardless of how many viable competitive stages there are
@@jomaq9233 which is why my draft idea would be good.
Have a small list for ban picks, but let the larger community technically have full access, just not all at once
@@velvetbutterfly That sounds extremely tedious and time consuming.
I would be all for it though.
As long as I'm not organizing that lmao.
So basically with KOF stadium and Mishima Dojo they're basically saying "fuck traditional fighting games we don't play like that here"
I mean, because it's not a traditional fighting game
@@NAFEDUDE yeah which further emphasizes that smash isn't a fighting game at all why ban the fighting game stages when you claim smash is a fighting game
It's a platform fighter. It has elements of traditional fighters, but ultimately the platform aspect of it is what really makes Smash its own subgenre.
How I've waited for this.
I've been waiting for this for a long time!
I've been waiting for this
You can memorize almost 100 characters, but not more that two stages,
Okay.
Were you dropped as a baby?
Why do people hate certain stage hazards so much? Is it like, from melee where there was like one or two stages that were fair and everything else was like brinstar and pokefloats? The main example is the ARMS stadium, literally it's completely equal without any crazy gimmicks. People seem to cry about little ceiling bits that can be used by both competitors..... And they're not really character biased like KOF favoring base knockback moves. Someone please explain smashers aversion to any hazards >.
It possibly comes from the amount of options that exist in Ultimate
To me the answer is adding more stages to competative play while allowing more ban slots.
I guess something that is still unique about Garreg Mach Monestary is that because specific sections prevent star KOs from happening it's the only omega/battlefield form in the game to allow star KOs on a stage that normally prevents it.
well here on year later and yggdrasil and the kof stages are legal and often used, and i've even seen mementos in some tournament tho it's rare, goes to show that slent isn't a problem at all, and is a good way to counterpick zoners or specific characters that don't like slented stages, and the kof stage did find a solution to fix walk offs, and is a god sent for characters with garbage recoveries, again as a counterpick tho
I scrolled through out the comments and see no mention of how the outer walls of the Mishima Dojo have similar properties to Kalos! Cool detail to add!
It’s been a great series! Thank you so much!
I agree that Small Battlefield and PS2 shouldn't both be starters. They're too similar-not similar enough to entirely replace each other, but too similar to both be starters.
I honestly think that "echo" stages that are very similar to current stages should count as one stage w/ the similar stage in regards to the amount of bans a player has during a set. Ex: if you ban HB then you also ban Smashville during that set, banning NC also bans Kalos. Summary: you should be able to use the stages normally when they're not banned, but banning a stage should also ban it's clone during the set.
@@aronspiker72 The problem that arises there is that some of the "echo" stages as you call them have key differences that might make you want to ban one but not the other--blast zone sizes, platform heights, and stage length can matter a lot, even if the platform layout looks similar; different combinations of these can lead to significant gameplay differences. A good stage list will not have a skewed distribution of these things, but rather present them evenly in different combinations while providing enough bans to where an extreme of any one particular aspect (long stages, lack of significant platforms, etc.) can be fully eliminated.
However, when it comes to starter stages, a greater variety of layouts is needed so it's more likely for there to be a neutral stage available in any given matchup while not favoring characters who like a certain type of stage too much. Therefore, the starter stages should be as different as possible while still having potential to be neutral stages in various matchups. So if different platform layouts are available, they should be utilized in the starter stage list to cover more options, provided there isn't something that makes a stage less neutral in general such as extreme blast zones.
Of course, finding a perfect balance of all of these is extremely difficult or almost impossible given the large number of characters and therefore matchups in the game, which is why there is no universal stage list at the moment. However, I do think many TOs aren't quite considerate enough of all of these factors when deciding on stage lists.
I could see yggdrasil's altar being a thing since we have Town and City being legal.
Also I can’t believe he forgot custom stages
One possible solution against the "clone stages" problem would be to categorize all of them with the stage that they're similar to, so for example if you ban Smashville, Hollow Bastion gets banned as well. That way we can have a little more variety on both aesthetics and music.
I also really wish the Dragon Quest stage was legal. It would be fun to see how would players adapt to the different platform layouts. The stage itself also looks cool, but sadly the music sucks.
Smashville and Hollow Bastion aren't really that similar in practice; often, a character prefers Smashville because it's significantly smaller than other legal stages, which is something Hollow Bastion doesn't offer despite its similar platform layout.
Every stage in smash is banned.
on spring stadium you should have also mentioned just how huge that stage is. Its way too big even without the ceiling
IMO there should be a huge list of stages to play, every fine stage is allowed and even some with slight problems like mementos and cloud sea of Aldress (however tf u spell that)
then people either start from a neutral stage, or gentlemen to any legal stage. After round 1, the loser can pick any stage they want after the opponent does bans (but similar stages will get banned together such as hollow and smashville,) and then you go into etc.
also if a stage is legal with or without hazards then once u pick the stage u then will pick hazards on or off.
About the hazards off choice, one problem is that it's really annoy to change that setting bc you have to change your ruleset instead of there being a button you can press on the stage select screen which would make way more sense. Also I personally think cloud sea is a bad stage even in a less serious environment bc it actually looks bad and the bottom blast zone is annoyingly close to where the main platform is with the camera not moving at all when you fall (I have a vendetta against this stage bc I beat Xenoblade 2 spirit battles w/o spirits myself and the layout of cloud sea was a massive issue in one of the battles)
you can't have smashville hazards on & off count as the same stage because they're fundamentally different in which characters it favours, middle platform basically favours camping under while side moving platform favours chasing out aggressively
I can't believe that we have stages removed for being too similar. On top of that,, banning them for having any form of slanting whatsoever is moronic. We could have so many more legal stages but they keep finding dumber and dumber reasons to limit the stage selection. God forbid we have some interesting choices that could actually cause people to have to be creative on the fly instead of having every pixel memorized.
It's because of how the stage banning process in competetive play works. The winner of the previous game in a set will get to ban a few stages to ensure that counterpicks don't have too strong of an effect. But to ensure that's fair, you need to make sure stages that have similar functions are either banned together or are minimal in number.
Imagine you were playing Mario, a character who benefits heavily from Battlefield-style layouts, against someone like Link, who typically will avoid those stages. If we had Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Midgar, Dreamland, and Fountain of Dreams all as legal stages, Mario would be at an unfair advantage there, as each of those stages is heavily benefitting Mario, and even after banning all of them, Mario will still get to choose from a wide variety of stages that might not be beneficial for you.
But if you had room to ban all 5 of them, that might work against a character like Bowser who would prefer to go to a smaller stage like Smashville; the only viable stages that are notably smaller than average are Smashville and Yoshi's Story, and in a 5 stage ban ruleset, the opponent will get to ban both the small stages and 2 other stages that they might not like for any other reason.
Character balance is a delicate thing, and we want the stagelist to have as little of an impact on it as we can.
That and we've all played against Mario on Yoshi's Story and we don't ever want that to happen again.
I play a character who loses half of her movesets with slants meanwhile Bayonetta on Lylat is one of the hardest characters to approach in the game because her bullet climax takes up the entire stage. Slants are fine so long as there's enough strikes in the striking phase to avoid them.
1:55 nice one
One of the platforms is 3cm lower than optimal
Smash Community after mastering the game for 1689hours: BANN THIS
I think it would be funny as heck if KOF stadium stage to be legal if both player plays character from fighting games
I wish these diagrams had been there in the previous videos
So from what I've learned from these 3 videos is:
People who do tournaments have a phobia of the asymmetric
This vid tells me one thing, competitive rules are shit
eh
Competitive scene is shit.
mish8ma dojo is nice, its like fd but the walls make it a bit more interesting, and i like breaking stages.
mementos with hazards is my favorite stage in the game to play on
I know people like to complain about “Melee/competitive elitists”, but honestly, “casual elitism” is just as bad, if not worse
just let competitive people have their sometimes restrictive rules, they can still enjoy the game with them
Right. You can play Smash in different ways. Comp rules are meant to make the game as much as a test of pure skill as possible with no chances for randomness or cheapness. With that in mind, comp rules makes absolute sense.
Not saying one is better than the other. A free for all with hazards is GREAT. It just depends on my mood!
The irony LOL
Yeah, i've seen more people that don't even play competitive complain about competitive smash than competitive players do about items. Heck, some of these competitive players do play with items on from time to time. It's a completely valid to play Smash like any other.
Eh
@@monchete9934 I'm not sure I'd agree with that sentiment (The complaining part, not the valid play part). It's understandable for people coming from the casual side to see large swathes of the game's mechanics removed and go 'But why?', as it is making a dramatic change to the base game. Likewise it's a situation where that's the only real competitive play you see, without much in the way of options for people who want to play big tournaments but don't want to discard those options.
It's valid decisions from the Competitive community but I think there's a difference in situation between 'People complaining about changes made by competitive' vs 'Competitive players complaining about something they don't have to ever encounter'. I also think we'd see plenty of complaining if somehow Nintendo magically went 'all tournaments now have items' as it would make the default tournament standard something they don't like, rather than the default being their preferred option.
The Trademark Mishima Magnetic Wind God Fist
where do you get the collision data images for the stages?
One thing that can also affect a stage's legality is music copyright, if big tournaments are going to have issues with their stream being copyright claimed because the stage's music they will most likely not use it.
The thing is that is mostly a problem with Smash 4 with certain tracks, but the copyright problems for NC seem to have calmed down a few months after the stage was added, and HB specifically went out of its way to include songs that do not have complicated rights issues by focusing entirely on themes from KH original areas and not any crossover worlds, also the DQ music in this game sucks anyways bc they did midi songs and one of the songs was terrible in DQ 11 anyways, so I think copyright was the least of your worries with the Dragon Quest music.
Also, the game lets you adjust the music probabilities to make specific songs nigh impossible to get, if there is an issue with a small number of songs in a stage with a broad overall list.
Wait, in which episode was Big Battlefield covered? I can't seem to find it in both previous episodes I feel like I'm missing something obvious.
it's right after Battlefield in part 1.
@@Triforce_of_Doom Thanks
ok but yggdrasils altar should be legal
Unfortunately the beginning of a match on that stage is always a walk-off which are never legal
@@outofthecoral it’s not actually a walk off but it’s that much better either
@@outofthecoral literally just don't get hit for, like, the first 10 seconds
@@MajoraWaffle Yeah but still a wal-koff. Fast characters can easily sneak up a early K.O if good enough
@@MajoraWaffle "just don't get hit lol"
After just seeing parts 1 and 2 just today I find it odd the a 3rd one just came out. Im just saying thats strange for me.
I vaguely remember people saying that TOs don't like using Northern Cave or Hollow Bastion because the songs trigger copyright bots on streams and youtube, lol
What’s the point for the devs of trying to design tournament legal stages if the Smash community will always find a way to get the stage banned.
I have an honest question, why aren't custom stages allowed? I feel like that would open so many avenues for specific play.
I think it's because the official stages basically cover all the potential layouts that would be fit for tournament play. Tri plat, 2 plat, single plat, Kalos's platforms covering the ledges, FD being flat...so there's not much more custom stages could provide that wouldn't start becoming too crazy or abused by campers.
However, there *are* a few potential platform layouts that are marred by hazards, slants, small blast zones, etc. that might be able to be legal. I've recreated Warioware, Lylat Cruise, and the Zelda pirate ship with all the problems ironed out, and they're actually pretty fun competitively! Whether or not tournaments see the value in those layouts is up to them I guess, but maybe they'll become more desperate for other stages now that all the DLC is out and there's nothing new to look forward to.
Custom stage has jank, the ledges always have a very tiny 45 degree angle for some reason, and soft platforms have walls for some reason. There is a work around to remove the walls, but I doubt most people know how to do that. Also for specifically online tournaments, every player would have to download the stage online which is a major inconvenience
@MT_Rathian So ban Steve specifically for tournaments involving custom stages. Very easy solution.
@@Missingno_Miner that is far from a solution actually
@@ONLY_RR7 If one character is the sole reason for not having something which would be its own dedicated thing anyways, then banning that character is, in fact, a solution.
I wish Minecraft World was legal cuz I just want to imagine an newbie picking up the game and them seeing tournaments take place in Minecraft lol
Also i was kinda surprised you said you wouldn't believe Steve would be the reason for the stage's legality rather than the stage being Minecraft itself literally lol
Why not have stages with very similar overlap be grouped together for counterpicks? That way you have the increased variety of competitively viable stages, but it doesn't mess with counterpick banning (ex. banning Kalos would also include banning Northern Cave)
Anyone else go back to rewatch?
KOF arena not being legal sucks. It’s the coolest stage in the game and would be awesome to see in competitive
I wonder why battlefield and omega forms of stages arent considered
stage striking
Rekzius do you main belmonts? Just wondering
He does
Isn't Northern Cave's legality in question? From what I heard, stages with busy backgrounds tend to be unfavored due to serving as a distraction or screwing with the lighting at certain points, which is certainly true for a stage that is relaying the entire final act of Final Fantasy VII.
I don't personally see that as too big an issue, but tournament organizers tend to be picky about it.
I love small battlefield.
Honestly I've been seeing hallow bastion used a lot more.