I am aware, I just literally couldn't think of anything clever to say in the moment so I just said something stupid (a tactic that's served me well for a decade!)
If I recall, they really oversold Brian May's involvement at the time, too. People were led to believe he was doing the whole soundtrack or something, but it turned out he did like, one theme. It's something like that, I'm going purely off memory here.
i once had the BS going on several occations as artist. It was in the period where i get that point in time when i make a transition and start to do more monetary income from that. Guys approaching to me saying: "i will give you exposure if you make my story with the script i will give you" ... meaning the person wants me to do a comic out of sheer will without any compensation at all than him trying to stealing the credit of my work. I cut their bullshits from the root , even when a dude want to propouse me an split revenue for do a type of flash animation artwork involving only 2 pics , and ask me to do an example for "him" . as if wasnt enough who i see the BS he was trying to do , and even if i already had done several pics who can be used for what he wanted to do. and my questions was always. WHY not before when i really need it? why not do that before when i was literally a "nobody". And then why this people get angry when i do a few free stuffs to people who stick with me for SO LONG and actually help me out without even ask anything in return at the begin?
@@GeloKuhsang welp!! the kind of people who had a rough introduction into a job of something they do very well, but they doesn't had the experience not the knowledge of how to stand by themselves or call into the company BS. Companies see this as an oportunity to exploit them out , since they target the ones who are in fear of never get a proper job or even some good relevance into the industry. Its infurating and sad at the same time since there is a lot of good well worked talent out there.
"My boyfriend got into an accident! He's in the hospital!" "Well, clearly *someone* has no passion for games! If you were truly passionate, you'd stay to finish "ride to hell 2"
"My mother needs a ride to the hospital immediately!" "I see, I see... well, if you'll excuse me, I have a job interview to perform. I believe a position just opened up here."
"...exploiting developers as young as 16..." Don't stop there Game Industry. Why not bring back child labour? After all, no one's putting a gun to their head, riiiight?
@@AkarZaephyr Why would they put the negative label "slavery" onto a system that is already slavery, and already exists, and that we all seem fine with?
In some states, that *is* child labor. I know in my state, 16-18 yr olds can only work a specific number of hours and what they're allowed to do is very carefully regulated (ex: they are not allowed to handle hot water AKA no washing dishes - too many kids have scalded themselves). If you're under 16, you have to apply for a work permit. And they very rarely approve work permits for anyone under 14 yrs old. There's a hard cut-off by law at 12 yrs old (as in no one under 12 can get a work permit and it's outright illegal to hire anyone for any reason if they're under 12). Yes, mowing your neighbor's lawn, lemonade/sweet corn stands, or babysitting is pretty much ignored. But kids almost never make enough money doing those things that they'd even have to report an income. And of course, there's a nice little exemption for farm labor if it's your family's farm as that's seen as "chores" and is unpaid work. There's an ungodly number of kids that are injured/killed every year doing farm labor on their parents' farm.
The "choice" thing reminds me of the classic video game prompt where you can respond yes or no but any answer other than "yes" won't let you progress in the game.
Or the games that let you choose either, but ultimately, the choice makes NO DIFFERENCE. "You choose to not work overtime? OK. BTW, Deadline is Friday and if you don't meet it, we will have to find someone who can meet deadlines!!"
From what I've been hearing about the industry in the last few months that last one? That's the disgusting standard, you're expected to not take days off, work 100 hour weeks or do "non-mandatory" overtime to keep your job.
@@Aleara27 actually slavery is undesirable, it wasnt banned because it was immoral, it was banned because it was obsolete, all those costs about feeding, housing, cleaning are undesiraable, wage-slaving is way more atractive and passion-slaving even more.
I don't work in gaming, but do work in IT and motivated passionate people are needed. Badly. They really are. But I am the one who didn't have a vacation this year as well. I quit, because I'm not tied to one field of work and can get out of an HR echo-chamber (and also, everyone wanted for me to return so no bad rumors as well). But there's a chance of slipping into this bullshit even if the company doesn't force it. It's gratifying, too. But yeah, the thin line can be defined quite precisely. To keep me so I can train people to reduce bus-factor before I leave I got double pay for two months and could've had it for 4 more. That was a statement on behalf of my boss and that for me what separates exploitation versus force-major situations or "going above and beyond"
Pirates clearly are just passionate about owning games. And the game industry, being passionate about giving people the best gaming experience are fine with just accepting that their passion is its own reward.
^This, so many times this. That's the same defense people demanding free tracks from professional musicians and protesting against commissions coming from professional artists use, and it's invalid there as well.
"Hey Brad Pitt, I know your going rate is $20 million per picture, but movies are art, so we're not going to pay you anyth- wait, where are you going?"
It's really important to get rid of this mentality. Artists work incredibly hard to perfect themselves, and to treat them like what they do doesn't deserve payment is incredibly demeaning. It's why, whenever possible, I buy game soundtracks I enjoy so I don't have to feel bad about listening to songs on TH-cam later.
To the 2 people responding: Yeah, that's a huge fucking problem. Not to mention how most of your clothes are tailored. Any and all professions, including ones with the intention of doing bodily harm to others, have no excuse for not being safe. The bodies in charge of running them are the ones responsible for looking out for their workers, most of which are severely underpaid and exploited like no tomorrow. And the solution isn't to boycott, not like you fucking can because so many things are necessary for your livelihood. Still, you can raise your voices and demand each industry to hold a higher standard for how they treat their workers, and in some cases how their products treat the environment. We live in a world where nearly everything comes at lethal expenses, and it's about fucking time we do better.
I once saw an add in a newspaper where a restaurant actually asked if a band would like to play at their venue for free but they could "show their passion for music" and "get their name out". The band I was in at the time answered: "Hey, would you like to throw a bbq at our place? We can't pay you but you can show your passion for food and recipies as well as getting your name out"
Indeed, that's very often the smoking gun with these things. Never hurts to ask yourself: "How rich is the guy telling me I shouldn't care about money?"
Yeah the Japanese model is poor from the other end of the equation. "The CEO is willing to kill himself to get this product out, why aren't you?!?" I remember a story about Japan Airlines when they went into hard times, the CEO flew coach, cut his salary to a meager $90,000 a year, and worked 17 hour days, six days a week. Which indirectly guilted many employees to *surpass* him. 70% of "static" employees (security, terminal personnel, and so forth) wound up not seeing their families for weeks at a time as they slept at work rather than go home. So noble as it seems _please_ do not follow the Japanese model!
Yup, like the example in the video.. I can be passionate about it, but I need to be paid bro. Possibly more so than if I didn't enjoy it because working all these hours means I can't get a second job to pay my actual rent. The don't accept enthusiasm and passion for payment.
@@paladin181 Its actually why I didn't want to become a professional artist, as sad as it is. People would tell me my painting was good all the time and that I "had to" get into it... But my response was always "would you pay for this? How much? Do you know how much time I spent on this? Too much to charge under $100 considering supplies and time." I knew I couldn't hack it... But it turns out that it's not much different in the medical field. I work with people with varying disabilities in a group home and, since I work for a private company (state work gets good pay and benefits), I get paid only barely above minimum wage (no benefits) because I'm expected to "not be in it for the money." My boyfriend was directly told (and subsequently fired) after a pay discussion with the boss and was told that "if you're in it for the money you need to look for something else." I'm not in it for money, but I'm literally wiping ass for less than McDonald's pays! The bosses get new cars every year! Can't afford to go to college and get my nursing degree, so I'm going to change careers soon.
I think about that particular comic near-constantly, but I'm so used to having it the back of my mind I didn't connect it to Molyneux's statement. Dang.
as an artist who worked in the industry as an employee, contractor and self-employed: (but by no means an expert!) -if someone wants you to work for them and you don't owe them a kidney, they pay you. if they get iffy about paying you and say something along the lines of "but you like doing that" chuck them INTO THE SEA -ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT. if there is a work relationship, you get a contract. in this contract, it should be stipulated that you are compensated for your work, based on what, and what both parties' obligations are to each other. if copyrights are involved it should be clearly indicated for what purpose, so they can't use your work for OTHER things without having to renegotiate. it should be signed by BOTH parties BEFORE any work is done. NO CONTRACT, NO WORK. if they do fuckery by this point you shouldn't work for them anyway so time saved. -communications is key to good relationships -get paid by the hour. always counts your hours at your usual rate if it's a milestone-based contract so you don't overwork. -ALWAYS GET PAID FOR OVERTIME/CORRECTIONS. better to get it in that contract. if it's not in the contract you do not do it. people will try to fuck you over on this part. do not hesitate to ask about company policies regarding those. -don't work if you are sick, or in bad shape. healing need rest. communicate regularly about your state and needs with your employer. if they shame you for it, big red flag. -breaks. take 'em. don't eat at the desk, go outside. a relaxed worker is a better worker. it's more efficient and you will be more focused. -some will try to guilt you or pressure you into doing what they want regardless of contract or laws. don't. they are infringing on your rights as a worker. if it gets too much, get the fuck out. contact your worker's rights associations, etc. -always remember it's a two way relationship, so if you do right by them, they should do right by you, and if they don't, fuck 'em. -you can absolutely fire a client
@@TrueEriel we call you to work whenever we want; we call you to inform you that we will pay you whenever we want (and that's only to save face and PR on the fringe moment).
So let’s do a count... -Don’t pay their employees. -Don’t pay their taxes. -Charge £60 for releases. -Charge between £70 and £200 for deluxe, ultimate and collector’s editions. -Have microtransactions and lootboxes. Honestly, AAA gaming is some of the scummiest businessmen in the world.
@@jackhazardous4008 Nope, but it was a company created by ex Redigit employees (the folks behind Terarria) and built their game around that. I just never knew they abused adolescence software developers for free labor, makes me sick.
As someone who lives with Asperger's, I can safely say his knowledge of the disorder is... laughably pathetic. Judging by his description, he's the one who has it... assuming that fat repulsive fuck ever got a girl in the first place.
I'm taking a business class now and one of the things my professor said after I talked about going into a computer science degree is that people on the spectrum may one day be conceited the "normal" people when it comes to programming and neurologically typical people may be considered disabled in the futcher.
I am related to someone who is a PT who regularly works with people on the spectrum, and I can tell you that saying shit like that is wrong on several levels, but it all too accepted as a statement. Short version on why this is wrong is 1, if making so your workers can work harder means that they will regularly have sensory, life skills, and mental breakdowns the increase of production is offset by the infrastructure needed to keep that worker healthy (and you know, ethics, but that argument went out the window a long time ago) and 2, in programming you need a team of people who can effectively communicate and being on the spectrum tends to disrupt that idea.
Fuck anyone that uses “differently abled” as an excuse to not help people in need.
One thing that (I believe) Jim said about the "paid by exposure" thing was back in the Paul Ryan debacle. That being "if a company can't even pay you, they won't even have the 'exposure' they promise" or something like that. Basically if a company can actually pay you in "exposure" in any amount that is worth anything then they do, in fact, have the clicks and views. If they have clicks and views worth anything, they necessarily also have the money to pay you.
I hate the doing things for free thing, it's doubly painful as on the one hand it's just companies exploiting people, but on the other if everybody agreed not to do it it wouldn't be a thing, but there's always some people willing to try and get a leg up over other people who are better than them by doing it then forcing the better people to do it as well.
When the CEO or what ever says “you should work for passion then everyone around them should ask them when they will work for the passion and not the millions they make.
Unfortunately, business in this country was summed up perfectly by Rom in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine": "(We) don't want to stop the exploitation; we want to find a way to become the exploiters."
The guy is literally using business practices to create socially isolated, and physically/mentally exhausted workforce, which in turn limits their ability to challenge their working conditions or unionise for better conditions. And the Aspergers exploitation is truly disgusting because his using someone's condition (that often results in problems with socialising) to ensure atomisation of the workforce... That guy is fucking disgusting
As a coder who makes games in my free time, I have this to say: When I code on my game in my own time, then I code what I want, I code what it fun to me, or will yield an end result that I believe is nice to have in my finished work. When I code on stuff for my job, then I'm working on stuff that other people want, and not the stuff that I want. So I'm better getting paid for doing what someone else wants me to work on. Huge difference between coding (or doing art) for yourself, versus doing it for someone else. It may still be fun either way, but it may not be what I want. And that alone is worth the compensation. (And heck, even if what my boss/ client wants what I want as well, as soon as the product goes over into the hands of someone else, they better pay me for it, since, you know, they buying my time and work so that they can then resell the finished product.) So remember, everyone: when someone wants something from you for free, don't do it, UNLESS you know the other person and want to be generous towards them (e.g. family)
As a fellow hobby game maker, my thoughts exactly! It's like comparing a kid giving a drawing of their imagination to their parents and an adult hired to paint a portrait of some rich stranger.
The bit about finding the holy grail of the undiscovered Asperger’s engineer makes me feel sick 🤢. And the bit about not developing attitudes is total bollocks. I’ve got attitudes and opinions. Tons in fact, to the point where there would be searching for my off button to shut me up, but I don’t have one by the way.
Was in a business lunch when i was 20 and just got my first job in the industry with a AAA exec that our studio did a project for. and he completely casually talked about stuff like that. In that case it was mostly about using different asian cultures to overwork and exploit them as best as possible. It was like his lifes work as a studio manager that he found out how he can get the best work to pay ratio out of those asian cultures. (he was from the US) and he ended all that with saying that if you want quality work to fix a problem you go to europe and pay them a shit ton of money and for all the other shitty work there are some indians or chinese. Work regulations are pretty tight in austria so my work there was quite chill but i still left 1 or two months after that.
You say something about attitude and opinions? I have loads of attitude and opinions. Off buttons!?! I'm like a steam engine, need time to get running. Need big levers and miles to get the engine to cool down. Want to do some attitude and opinions? _I can do some attitudes and opinions!_ _Let's do some attitude and opinions!!_ *Come on let's just do it. Here we GOOOO!!!!*
I love the 14:50 "Holy Grail - The Undiscovered Asperger's Engineer" as an 18 year old aspie considering actually working in game dev I would like to personally slap this guy in the face
I'm an asperger trying to make my own game, and I almost feel tempted to work for the asshat just to disappoint him. I have severe problems concentrating on work, even when I do want to do the work. My powers of asperger have not transformed me into a workaholic, like this shitstain assumes.
HI person with aspergers here. Here's your daily reminder we are not robots, we do enjoy having social lives, we have multiple interest and like to feed all of those interests. We are human beings just like you we have needs and wants so do not abuse us please
The fact that we have to remind human beings that we are, in fact, also human beings is sad. Actually that would only be surprising if the heads of these companies were human in the first place.
It's so disgusting to see people act like your problems make you into some perfect employee machine to accept abuse without issue. Disgusting. I'm sorry we live in societies like this...
My only question is...... What is spongebob taking Squidward's words too literally and destroying the Kristy krab a metaphor for..... You know the action that causes all the negotiations Squidward did with Mr. krabs to go up in smoke and basically land him in indentured servitude for eternity.
I would say no to crunch as soon as possible to get fired and get it over with. My rule is that if the job lasts less than one month, I will pretend I never worked there and will leave it off my resume.
I remember reading a comment by a guy upset that CDPR "Theoretically" may not be using crunch for Cyperpunk. He argued that if a game like Witcher 3 needed exploitative crunch to be made, it was worth every bit of worker suffering. Few things have depressed me like that attitude.
@Hakageryuu The creepy thing is - there are actually people that have that attitude BECAUSE they had shitty parts in their live. A "my life was shit, so why should theirs be better". Alex Saint John actually justified his demands at game devs by stating that he had an early live devoid of many luxuries and because compared to that game dev work and life in general and crunch in particular was not that bad, it would be entitled to think otherwise. After all, if normal toilets and heating is already a massive improvement to you, someone taking these things for granted and protests the very life that was a massive improvement to you as unfairly harsh does come of as entitled and "whiny". Though just because that stance is understandable, I still do not like it or people using it and ESPECIALLY not when it concerns working condition or living conditions: Firstly, we could always argue that against any improvement or feeling you deserve something. Secondly, our modern sensibilities of what is too much work or undue pay are not just based on some sense of entitlement. We have scientific studies showing that something like 80 hour weeks are unhealthy and inefficient. Its not a random statement, it has a scientific basis. As has getting paid proportional to your work, this is the most efficient way for the system overall to run. Thirdly and most importantly its just a bad attitude. Its understandable to envy those that have it better, but its still not good. Better to be thankfull that younger generations do not have to go through the same stuff than demand they do. After all, this is how we get forward.
@@bificommander7472 but it's 100% true, and I think very well said. I also don't see how being articulate and impassioned somehow comes off to you in a way that suggest it should be said in a funny voice. (aside from the phrase bottom dollar maybe, but I'm kidding, although I do think it is well said and actually a serious issue, and also I somehow didn't even really notice the use of 'bottom dollar' when I first read it).
@Hakageryuu Huh, well, no offense to the OP, but there's only one comment that deserves to be read in said voice.. also, now that I think about it, I consider it not only glib, but insulting to suggest that being articulate and using somewhat more complex grammar should be equated with having lots of money, or, rich people are smart and poor people aren't. Not really, but I get mad thinking about how evil rich people are, and how fucked up you'd have to be to hoard large amounts of money.
Ah... The 'passion' excuse. Like my primary school teacher used to do to me. 'Yes, I marked her down on her report'. 'why? was her work bad?' 'no, it was nearly flawless.' 'then what?' 'She wasn't enthusiastic enough while doing it'. I mean... Seriously. But no, that IS what the world is like as an adult in some industries huh. Wow.
The irony is that the education industry also runs big on passion and once it's sucked that passion dry out of teachers, it spits them out without a qualm.
Bah... what a disappointment to see Chucklefish being a bunch of shitheads. Thank god for your work Jim, another developer to not support in the future.
Meh, keep buying their stuff. Most companies don't have the marketing insight necessary to know they are being boycotted. Instead write them a short letter on how you feel about their practices. Then write them another at a random time from 1 week to two months from now, so that they get a barrage of critisim now, and they are shown people don't forget these things as well.
Seriously. I love what they put out, I'm going to feel really guilty buying or playing another game from them. Considering it happened years ago, I'd have hoped their statement was "Yes, we treated them poorly before, but we've taken steps since those days, upon growing larger as a company and with a change of management, to better compensate our workers." The "We're sorry you felt like you should have been paid" statement suggests it's still an ongoing issue.
Its about time someone like Jim spoke out against Chucklefish. Back when Starbound was in development and early access, it played out almost exactly like some of the worst Kickstarter disasters. Mismanagement, failure to meet promises, design team upheaval, and an underwhelming product. Its a miracle that game is what it is today. But that doesn't excuse Chucklefish anymore than NMS and Hello Games.
See, the battery is a metaphorical representation of the overworked and exploited worker, so casually discarded when they desperately need time to recharge...
@@raf74hawk12 doesn't sound like a good conversion to me. Can I just buy exposure? That's probably better, if I had any money.. I suppose I should just non-gmo pasteurize my own exposure.
@@dddmemaybe Well the irony is that it actually is quite easy to buy exposure. The more money you have, the more exposure you can get, and anyone who tells you differently is probably trying to sell an Eragon. I suppose in Jim Sterling Analogy Terms, "Passion" is the bullshit free currency, and "Exposure" is the actually useful currency, and they try to get you hooked in by explaining that Passion can totally be exchanged for Exposure, but the cost is in actuality so ruinous that it's not worth it.
It should be obvious, but it bears repeating: the people who talk about "passion" the most tend to make shitloads of money off of the work of others. Apparently *their* true passion is making money. Funny how that works.
I'm 22 and I've learnt already - keep passion away from employers. I'll get the job done for them, but my passion projects? Nah fam, I keep those for myself, so no fucko can interfere with my vision and stand between me and my paycheck. But still, I'll give somebody's idea my full professionalism if they pay me, but it all mostly serves fueling my passion.
Coming from someone who's been fucked over on a freelance project that has been crunched into an unbelievably capable (albeit rushed) product, which has been swiftly abandoned after release because it didn't meet expectations that noone communicated to me... ... Splitting into "work" and "passion" is probably the best advice you could ever give to somebody like us.
I hope you will say the same when you have to employ others to fullfil your projects. When you are a boss you need to keep both the employer and the employees happy. Being a boss Its awfull, but someone has to do It, and its easy to be an awful boss than a good one.
@@samuelhackson828 Yeah, often the sad reality - crunch, lack of direction and playing hot potato with the blame after it flops. And expecting shit without expressing it first - damn, that should be covered by the contract, because that seems very abusable.
@@bemersonbakebarmen Yeah, I think I have this mostly figured out. I'll be more of a leader - since I already do most of the work in many fields of game development myself, I know what's reasonable to expect from others. I'd actually fairly enjoy my job being mostly comming up with ideas and having other people realize them for me, I'd make sure to explain the task well, make many crucial parts myself, and pay as deserved. Also, I think I'd have this policy, that anyone can pitch a game or show me a prototype, and if I'm sold on it, I'd fund boost it a little and keep giving that person their salary while they work on it, in exchange I'd cut some percent of the profit. That way my potential employees would simultaneously get to have a stable job and to fulfill their passion projects from time to time. Yeah, I have plans for this all, the hard part is stopping being too broke to begin :D
To those who don't know yet and might've thought otherwise, Stardew is no longer published by the Chucklefucks, its solo dev went indie. If you feel a very sudden and totally irrational urge to hurl an insult or a tirade at CF, don't do it in SV reviews or forums, it's pointless there and only puts (likely) undeserved excess pressure on the guy.
"If you expect money, you're entitled!" Yes. You are. You ARE entitled to compensation. You are entitled to it BY LAW. That's the foundation of economics: you work, you get paid.
14:55 People with Aspergers can also get overwhelmed very easily and shut down altogether. I have Aspergers and a graduate degree in Meteorology, and the abusive and exploitative nature of corporate work caused me so much fear that I developed ergophobia. I haven't been able to land a full-time job despite trying with the ergophobia. Exploitative employers like Alex St. John is who I irrationally fear in corporate work, and employers like him and others spoil the good employers and make me irrationally afraid of trying to find the good employers. Yes, abusive video game companies make me afraid of any corporate work because the attitudes of exploitation and "profit and nothing else" are not limited to the video game industry. My point is that exploiting Aspies is possibly going to make more of them afraid to work altogether since they have fewer job options due to their disability. If the job they can do is exploitative and abusive, they may not want to work it, leaving them unable to do any job and having to live off of disability or worse. It's a toxic attitude that needs to be punished, but in our archaic corporatist system that treats workers like robots and rewards every way to make a profit, no matter how destructive, amoral, or downright evil it is, I don't see it being reprimanded or deterred anytime soon.
You know, after reading your comment and hearing what Jim says, I hope this guy has a nice long life. Because when he dies, there is a very special place in hell for schmucks like him.
I have ASD, subtype PDA (Pathological demand avoidance), I went to Uni to be a games designer (early 2000s), but couldn't handle the demands of the course-work. That said, I had already started seeing the industry for what it was and where it was going by the time I dropped out, so I have little regret about walking away. Ended up working retail for a few years, till I burned out on that too. I am now on disability (for depression), and doubt I will be capable of working as a 'wage slave' ever again. I also hate corporate rule, so I identify a lot with your post, you are not alone! :)
Now would be a good time to do an episode tearing apart the following ideas: - Homo economicus, or the idea that humans are “rational actors”, despite extensive psychological research showing precisely the opposite (i.e. Luxury Fever, Predictably Irrational, Thinking Fast & Slow) - The just-world fallacy, the idea that nothing good or bad happens to a person unless they truly deserve it. - The self-made man, which is self-explanatory - The idea that the “thinking” part of your brain is always in charge of your emotions or instincts/impulses, despite that having also been disproven by psychologists (i.e. Jonathan Haidt). These four philosophies underlie the arguments made by corporate mouthpieces and game industry executives.
GAME CORPORATION LOGIC DIRECTIVES: 1. ABUSE THE PUBLIC TRUST 2. SCAM THE INNOCENT 3. COINBASE THE LAW DIRECTIVE 4. (CLASSIFIED) but it helps to have a map))
The exploitation of people on the spectrum is especially disgusting more so then the regular exploitation under Capitalism. I have Aspergers and to think about having special interests taken advantage of is appalling.
Same here, and I find the idea that people on the spectrum somehow wouldn't have emotions or opinions appalling, plus I'm sick to death of the stereotype that all people with Aspergers are inept teenage boys who hate talking and have no friends but are magical savants when it comes to anything mathematical or coding related.
I work in IT, and on the rare occasion I work late I find myself completely unable to think creatively around a particular problem. What we as a team tend to do after hours is the same things we tried earlier which didn't work then either. We don't have the energy to come up with a new solution. E.G Molyneux is talking bollocks, as usual.
Chucklefish - We are saddened to hear the allegations regarding Starbound's early development... York - What's this? Clear as a crisp spring morning: B. S.! In the coffee!
I work a full time job in order to keep the lights on and keep food in my belly but in my time off I'm making a small computer game. It's nothing special, just a fun little project that I hope will eventually be quite fun to play. Though it is currently less than 2000 lines of coding, I have written every single word of it. Solving some of the issues has taken days of working out the bugs, whereas other days I am able to write a whole script without any errors. However my days turn out, it is a daily grind. I come home from work and do a couple of hours coding before bed, and my days off are virtually nothing but hardcore scripting sessions at this point. 2000 lines might not sound like much but trust me, when you're working full time and coding everything solo, it's still not much, but it takes time. Naturally it's only my hobby and I'm financing myself, I expect no monetery compensation for my time and effort, because it's not my job. I'm doing it because I want to, because it's MY project and MY vision. It's heartbreaking to hear that people who went to school to learn coding, the people who are so talented at it that they can be employed by others to complete projects that they themselves have basically zero artistic input into, are being treated as though they themselves are supposed to be passionate about someone elses project to the point that their career is treated like nothing more than a hobby. I pity anyone that took this path now, though I used to envy them. I'm glad that I chose to teach myself and work alone as opposed to a collage education and a job in a real game studio, because apparently it's not even valued as a real job anymore. I'd like to blame the Dunning Kruger effect. It seems easy to outsiders because they've spent so many years studying that it is almost as natural for them as breathing and so you see no value in it, because you don't see the years of studying, only the breathing.
You mean companies in general. I had to work at McDonald's for 3 months and the kitchen manager once accused me of not being passionate enough when I complained my position was wreaking havoc on my back. Mate, I'm making fries and packaging them while using an appliance that is meant for people half my height, sorry I don't want to become a hunchback.
Brother I hear that, at Burger King no matter how fast you make a burger it isn't fast enough, and the high drive through time is somehow always your fault
Don't let those fuckleshits get you permanently injured, record what they say and take it to management and if management doesn't like that get a lawyer and sue the shits because if you don't get a life injury from there inability to manage properly, someone else will. I really enjoyed/had passion for my job at a grocery store with my good boss till they quit and I got a new boss. Being responsible, I told the new boss about my previous back injuries and they immediately told me that if I ever wanted my raise and new job position I would have to be able to do everything required. They then put me on lifting all the heavy deli salads and meats (which of course good boss never had me do); back gave up after a month of that and has had a permanently pinched nerve leaving me on disability for the last decade. I took them all the way through workers tribunal, they showed up late to court and still won... FUCK THEM
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 ah yes. The capitalist system hard at work as it was designed. I feel for you mate. I have my fare share of horrendous work abuse stories myself. Solidarity.
Same. I was told almost constantly that I "don't have to work here" and that I should "help me (the manager) out" by overworking myself in 90+ degree weather with no guarantee of hydration (physical labor, btw). I couldn't quit fast enough.
I had a note from the hospital, couldn't even walk. Spouse had to take it in. They were told I either came in or was fired. Gotta love probation periods. The funny thing being they couldn't even get enough staff to properly staff the place as it was. Yet opened another location in town... Yeah. Long lines no matter how fast you worked, and if you were disabled... A nightmare. This was a gas station that I'm not sure about having locations all that many places.
"Targeting people with Aspergers," Oh frick no he did not! The bloody hell what publishers _can_ I buy from at this point?! 😡 Here's the thing with us Aspies, we have _meltdowns._ If we get too stressed, too overwhelmed, too under or over stimulated (like working at a desk) we frigging *EX-PLODE.* Yelling, loud sobbing, fist pounding, self hitting, if a toddler will do it a twenty something Aspie will. It looks like a tantrum. It feels like a tantrum. But damn if it ain't hella necessary. I won't be surprised if developers shovel in as many Aspies as they can get only for things to break down the moment crunch time happens. Depending on how bad the cause of the meltdown is working on the thing that _caused_ it will be out of the question. Aspies can and will leave once shoved hard enough. Once friends are fired and family gets involved. Producers are just asking for a shit storm if they think combining us with crunch is a good idea. Edit: holy heck there's a good discussion going on here. Thanks guys.
As someone with Asperger's that barely has a social life and can't hold down a job in the first place... Well, yeah, I don't actually know what we're complaining about yet, but fuck it in advance... Edit: oh. There it is. Fuck that right to hell. Arrogant ass that guy is huh. Oh and of course if you then combine it with the earlier slide about the 'mythical' female engineer... Holy crap is that annoying. XD
Nintendo says fuck crunch, their shareholders wig dropping their stock, and the Big N just marches along, dick swinging. With the breeze in their ball hairs.
As someone who's been given the game dev passion speech in the past thank you for what you do Jim. More newbies need to be aware of it and more studio heads need to try paying for their Mercedes with "passion".
"wanna be a game dev? work for free" basically the reason why indie devs are a thing. They effectively work for free but then get a return once their game sells. But then they can ACTUALLY make a game with their passion
Yes it just doesent work if companys are using Startup tatics when not being Start-ups at all. The richer devs sure started to like Kickstarter and following the Image of Indy Studios or outright buying them out.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the developer for Cultist Simulator (Alexis Kennedy) was recently accused of sexually and professionally preying on young women in the game industry.
If they don't public defend this b.s the bosses suggest they might not be a "team player" and suggest This Company might not be the "right environment" for them.
As someone who is officially considered straight-up crazy by the government, Shut Up and deal with it. The world is against you, society is against you. Quit whining about it.
@@jmlkhan5153 a little more positivity mate, not everyone is against you just the dicks who don't understand the concept of fairness and decency. On the other hand that's a good attitude to take when you want to be careful. Just don't overindulge.
Things like that should tick everyone off. It shows that our employers are just wolves waiting for the right isolated lamb to kill. They will pay a regular employee well because regular employees have standards and other options for lines of work. People like you with Asperger's or other conditions that make finding employment unimaginably difficult don't tend to have other options, and so they are ripe to be picked up and kept as slaves. Wage slaves if you're lucky.
Crane: “Now, what will it be? Death or Overtime?” Jim Sterling: “Crane, if you think we're going to work such insane crunch hours willingly, you got another thing coming!” Crane: “So it's death then?” Jim Sterling: “Looks that way.” Crane: “Very well. Death... By Overtime!”
here in Europe it can be quite good. I work in austria and im sometimes in a german studio for collab. Work here is pretty chill. i havent worked any overtime since i started working 3 years ago.
Friendly reminder that Chucklefish is based in London. Honestly, I feel like it might be a good idea to try solo projects at first if you want to make a name for yourself, or just try and find the right people to throw your lot in with.
The entire Business World is fucked beyond all repair really, positive reciprocity (you work hard for an employer and they get your back, IE. Job Stability and keep you advancing IE. Raises and promotions.) yeah all that is fucking deader than disco only the mercs get anywhere and even then only the ones who already have a foot in the door or have friends in high places, the stock market and the obscene amount of power the board of directors have over everyone in the company including CEOs has destroyed the power dynamic between producer and consumer, (the fact that most investors rich enough to be on the board are out of touch boomers makes things even worse!), then there's the systematic annihilation of merit! There's nepotism and networking being given massive priority over actual skill and credentials, diversity hiring, and the political zeitgeist mafia, the last of which will not only unfairly and illegally discriminate job applicants based on political ideology, but will also blacklist them and attempt to destroy their careers in entire industries if they don't fall in line. Entry level job positions don't exist anymore so anyone who doesn't already have work experience has almost no chance of getting into the job market at all in any field. An extremely overcrowded job market, too many people not enough jobs, which has led to this sort of credentials arms race which I believe is a huge part of what destroyed the concept of entry level. Lack of enforcement of anti-trust laws or government outright sanctioning leading to corporate cabal oligarchies operating openly in most fields and choking any meaningful competition that tries to exist into oblivion. I could go on and on and on but TL:DR the entire business world in developed nations is FUBAR most of the problems I listed are not unique to any one nation you're basically screwed no matter where you live or where you go!
I worked for 6 months in game studio this year formed by professionals of the industry. After all that hard work I discovered the boss of the project was giving the credit of my work to his brother to falsely improve his portfolio. almost half a year later and after confronting him with this I'm still waiting for ANY compensation, payment or even aknowledgement that I ever worked in the project at all. If I go public with this the only one that loses for sure is me as with his contacts I would have a really hard time finding any game job again. This is just one of many, many similar or worse cases in this industry. We need union power, now!
That sucks ... I am a QA by profession, and always thought of working the gaming industry, because I love games, so it would be a win-win, right? But I never did (nothing available locally until recently), and I must say, that in the last few years, my desires for that have completely disappeared. I would seriously advice you to find employment outside the industry. It is not as "glamerous" but it is often much better paid and with more reasonable working conditions. I would certainly NEVER advice a fellow QA to work in gaming. They treat people like trash because they can always get another body to do your work. If people stopped looking for those kinds of jobs, then the industry would have to offer proper conditions to attract people.
I'm always so glad when you cover this stuff Jim. A lot of games media tend to pussyfoot around these issues (or undermine their significance), so the importance of having a light shined on these terrible practices every week cannot be overstated. Amazing work as always! =D
It warms my heart whenever Jim makes a video reminding people how ALL of the videogame industry is cesspool of scumbags, and not just big AAA publishers!
Part of the reason the gaming industry is so susceptible to labour abuse is because it's never had Unions. All companies of all businesses will exploit their workers as much as they can get away with. Unions set lines that the companies cannot cross without difficulty. Even after Unions get gutted by conservative legislation, these lines are difficult to move after they've been drawn. Game artists and programmers need to unionize if they want the abuse to stop.
Spot on. It's similar to how the film industry was decades ago before actors, writers etc. began to unionise. Back then film studios basically screwed over their employees in every way they could especially when it came to things like royalties. Screen writers in f.ex the American film and television industry are entitled to royalties while game writers are not. The former has the backing of two fairly powerful unions (Writers Guild of America, East and West) while the latter does not. I doubt that is a coincidence.
I'm sitting here, nodding as I hear the typical corporate exploitative methods, then you mention Asperger's and I nearly blow chunks on the spot. That is just... wow
Wow I have aspergers and that was insulting, exploiting a person's disability or passion for profit or even emotional reasons or any other reason is thoroughly despicable.
you joke but its been proven by multiple studies that piracy increases sales because of word of mouth and people wanting support developers of games they like.
"I'm doing this bit here just out of, ya know, respect for the format." Don't you mean PASSION for the format! I'll see myself face-first into an ant hill.
They got rightfully shit on around the original "Early Access" release of Starbound (For shittons of undelivered promises that were unbelievably impossible in hindsight and they should have known. Also, spending crowdfunding money on seemingly trivial shit.), but they've been having it easy recently. Guess some things never change.
Jim, I wanted to personally thank you for presenting this report several months ago as you did. Thanks to it, I looked into my own past situations and have just today been diagnosed with Asperger's. Not the greatest way to find out, mind you. Thinking about how I previously felt exploited in order to draw the connections, but still, it brings new light to a number of areas in my life I had been frustrated with. So, once again, thank you.
It's also worth mentioning that shorter work hours are linked to higher or equal productivity than those who work 40 hour or longer work weeks. As it turns out, having leisure time in where you can recharge mentally, physically and socially improves one's wellbeing and increases their efficiency as they aren't zoning out from fatigue or ennui.
As someone on the autistic spectrum working very unsocial shifts in an emergency service role struggling to have a social life outside of work to the detriment of my mental health...to hear that CEOs in this industry view people like me with our disability and impaired social skills as cash cows they can make money out of...that fucking sickens me. Greedy selfish fucking Bastards. The industry needs to unionize ASAP.
Real engineers, real gamers, real music, real literature... The word gets abused so much and it's always by people trying to impose their own views on how something should be on others.
@@thepassingstatic6268 Exactly. I hate that attitude, even if it is understandable. I mean I can understand if someone, to whom even video game crunch seems like heaven finds the calling for smaller work weeks and pay that would have been ridicolous in their day entitled. But while understandable, its still the wrong attitude. Instead its better to celebrate that improvement (which Saint John does) AND demand it to be taken further on what is possible and fair (which he does not).
@@darkfyraproductions7958 Honestly, this kind of sentiment is (luckily) decreasing when it comes to literature. Though there is still a holdout that in professional circles "old" literature is often considered better for virtues that might baffle more "normal" readers. But it is in my experience mostly toned down to understandable levels, e. g. simply that older works still relevant today have proven their timeless quality by that more than more recent works. I thought the whole "fantasy is not a real genre" was dead, since even more recent phenomenons are getting more accepted in more classical circles (pop, video games), at least certain variants. I mean fantasy has been established as a real genre pretty much since Tolkien. Of course there were more than just Tolkien, he is just the biggest name and his name alone tends to shut up most debates if fantasy can be a real genre. I understand it on a work-by-work basis, stuff like A Song of Ice and Fire is highly device with everything between "artistic masterpiece" and "uses copious amounts of sex and violence to hide its massive shortcomings". But the entire genre... Did not think these people are still around in any capacity.
Ohhhh, I see how this works! I'll give these companies a similar unpalatable choice. I can either not buy your games or set sail. It's your choice, no pressure.
I've been on the fence about the whole Chucklefish fiasco for a while now, and I was honestly hoping to hear what the company themselves had to say about it. And, well, I don't know what I expected. I don't even feel angry, just... Sad. Sad that one of my favourite games was basically made by 21st century slave labour, sad that people are boycotting the game they already bought (which does fuck all) over this, sad that it all happened when it really didn't need to. The worst thing is, if the contract says they won't be paid, the fish of chuckles won't even be doing anything illegal *to my knowledge* (and by that I mean feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Oh they'll still be a load of manipulative, exploitative twats for doing this in the first place, but it won't technically be fraudulent or lying, as they stated that they won't be paid. Again, if it was implied they'll be paid in conversation, but not written on the contract, it's still INCREDIBLY scummy but I don't think it's fraudulent. However, the saddest thing is that boycotting their games only causes the hard work of those amaetur devs, all of which put their very heart and soul into this stuff, to merely go to waste. It's quite the moral conundrum: boycott the game, it flops and the devs see it as a failure on their part, and so will people looking at what they worked on, which is guaranteed to hurt then later on, or buy it, and the publisher; Chucklefish, in this case, continues to profit of other people's unpaid labour. There is no winning strategy and there are no winners except the ones doing the exploiting, and it just makes me really, really depressed.
Are you perhaps thinking about a way where people will still get to play this game and enjoy it in a way that ensures the exploiters never get payed? If only someone on the internet figured out a way.....
And in a way that ensures the people who worked their asses off actually get the payment they deserve, so straight-up piracy isn't exactly the best way of going about it.
They talk about having the passion to see things through, but any amount of passion can be destroyed by sustained exposure to negative environments. So even if they did have the passion at the beginning, they may not after a few months of unpaid overtime.
i threw my back out unloading a truck at my job, told my manager i was going home early (2hrs left on shift out of 8) and she tried to guilt me into staying despite me literally crying in pain and barely able to move. i went home anyhow since i my personal health is more important to me then my job (not trying to look down on those who fall for the pressure)
@@Thelango99 +500 Points! Next question, what is the song that goes "Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Yay!", and who sings it?
I should point out as a early early backer of starbound, I knew that Starbound was trouble the moment they changed 80% of the game's design and story around year 2-3 of the game's development. The second warning was when they bought an office, lost the original core engine coder, and became a publisher. It is true that they published good games. But it is worth noting none of chucklefishes devs worked on their published games with a few exceptions. Stardew valley was largely the work of one dev. It isn't suprising that a newbie dev company wouldn't be good at business.
Honestly I wouldn't call Starbound worth playing or even finished the story mode is dull and nobody wanted it, the game chugs and struggles to load planets even on good hardware, and the game is horribly repetitive with dull boss fights. The terraria devs havent been exactly perfect of late but their game turned out a hell of a lot better. Hearing that the devs of starbound are apparently total assholes just makes sense to me now
Half Life 2 is one of the best games ever made. And it was delayed twice specifically because it wasn't done. You know what they didn't do? Lock their employees in the building and crunch them to death. I may think Valve's "desks have wheels" policy has prevented them from releasing more than one game a decade in the last decade, but at least it's fucking humane. The Half Life 2 crew literally couldn't be crunched inhumanely because if the bosses tried, all the devs would have wheeled their desks over to the CounterStrike and Team Fortress 2 labs instead. The workers had that little bit of power. And it produced Half Life 2. Imagine that
What you’re saying goes beyond the games industry and into the arts in general. Art and creative work should be valued and respected. Creativity comes at a premium. Most people are not that creative, contrary to popular belief. And more ASMR Jim when?
Nothing gives me more passion for doing my work than me knowing i get paid for it. If my head chef told me that my love for making food would result in him paying me less, then I would stick my middle finger in his face and leave.
I personally believe they should be strapped to a chair and fed all the money they have in blank notes and for their money go to helping the homeless and sick children.
DeadNoob do not think that the contemporary world doesn’t also larp day in and day out itself, extolling virtues that it never amounts to based on a century of propaganda and propped up by anti labour laws and death. The idea that everything is ok whilst the world burns down is the greatest larp of all, it doesn’t hold a candle to tankies, nazis, and anarkids on the Internet.
Uh, Jim there already IS a Rise of the Robots 2.
And Brian May (YES, THAT ONE) did some of the music.
I am aware, I just literally couldn't think of anything clever to say in the moment so I just said something stupid (a tactic that's served me well for a decade!)
If I recall, they really oversold Brian May's involvement at the time, too. People were led to believe he was doing the whole soundtrack or something, but it turned out he did like, one theme. It's something like that, I'm going purely off memory here.
Yeah I think it was only the theme. But it did have an awesome soundtrack. The game...well, that's another thing.
Also pinning this so the comments don't have to fill up with people saying the same oh no too late!
@@JimSterling We want One Must Fall 2
Artists get paid with "exposure"
Game devs get paid with "passion"
I'm sensing a pattern here...
i once had the BS going on several occations as artist. It was in the period where i get that point in time when i make a transition and start to do more monetary income from that. Guys approaching to me saying: "i will give you exposure if you make my story with the script i will give you" ... meaning the person wants me to do a comic out of sheer will without any compensation at all than him trying to stealing the credit of my work. I cut their bullshits from the root , even when a dude want to propouse me an split revenue for do a type of flash animation artwork involving only 2 pics , and ask me to do an example for "him" . as if wasnt enough who i see the BS he was trying to do , and even if i already had done several pics who can be used for what he wanted to do.
and my questions was always. WHY not before when i really need it? why not do that before when i was literally a "nobody". And then why this people get angry when i do a few free stuffs to people who stick with me for SO LONG and actually help me out without even ask anything in return at the begin?
"All the hours of work we're not paying for are SO EXPENSIVE so we need to have every monetisation method in existence to pay for it :((("
But seriously, who signs a contract that doesn't specify your payment?
@@Robert399 yeah! thats the excuse who seems to run down into this "Triple A gaming industry".
@@GeloKuhsang welp!! the kind of people who had a rough introduction into a job of something they do very well, but they doesn't had the experience not the knowledge of how to stand by themselves or call into the company BS. Companies see this as an oportunity to exploit them out , since they target the ones who are in fear of never get a proper job or even some good relevance into the industry.
Its infurating and sad at the same time since there is a lot of good well worked talent out there.
"Please, I just want to see my family!"
"That's not very cash money of you."
"My boyfriend got into an accident! He's in the hospital!"
"Well, clearly *someone* has no passion for games! If you were truly passionate, you'd stay to finish "ride to hell 2"
Haha
"My mother needs a ride to the hospital immediately!"
"I see, I see... well, if you'll excuse me, I have a job interview to perform. I believe a position just opened up here."
"Wait, there's cash money for the non-CEOs?"
"That's not very cash money *for me* ."
"...exploiting developers as young as 16..."
Don't stop there Game Industry. Why not bring back child labour? After all, no one's putting a gun to their head, riiiight?
Why bother with such half-measures? Let's re-introduce slavery and spare those rich fucks the pantomime of giving any shit.
@@AkarZaephyr Why would they put the negative label "slavery" onto a system that is already slavery, and already exists, and that we all seem fine with?
A lot of modders are young and end up having their work incorporated back into the game for no compensation at all. So they're already at child labor.
In some states, that *is* child labor. I know in my state, 16-18 yr olds can only work a specific number of hours and what they're allowed to do is very carefully regulated (ex: they are not allowed to handle hot water AKA no washing dishes - too many kids have scalded themselves). If you're under 16, you have to apply for a work permit. And they very rarely approve work permits for anyone under 14 yrs old. There's a hard cut-off by law at 12 yrs old (as in no one under 12 can get a work permit and it's outright illegal to hire anyone for any reason if they're under 12).
Yes, mowing your neighbor's lawn, lemonade/sweet corn stands, or babysitting is pretty much ignored. But kids almost never make enough money doing those things that they'd even have to report an income. And of course, there's a nice little exemption for farm labor if it's your family's farm as that's seen as "chores" and is unpaid work. There's an ungodly number of kids that are injured/killed every year doing farm labor on their parents' farm.
Nope. 16 is min age to work in office.
it's sometimes the same in acting - apparently quite a few of the backup dancers and singers in West End musicals are unpaid
But what about the experience and expoooooooooooooooooooosure.
Love seeing you 'round these parts, Olly.
@@charliethecockatoo2159 update *Abi :)
@@hayk3000 Yeah, that was two months ago before the Philosophy Tube reboot.
Maybe take that into consideration.
@@charliethecockatoo2159 I did, that's why I said "update"
The "choice" thing reminds me of the classic video game prompt where you can respond yes or no but any answer other than "yes" won't let you progress in the game.
* Glares at the Dragon Quest games *
Even better, the ones where even saying "no" somehow works back around to being forced into it.
Or the games that let you choose either, but ultimately, the choice makes NO DIFFERENCE. "You choose to not work overtime? OK. BTW, Deadline is Friday and if you don't meet it, we will have to find someone who can meet deadlines!!"
"but thou must"
Illusion of choice bullshit should probably be limited to games. Annoying at times, yes, but in-game choices don't carry over into the real world.
So basically:
We want passionate people = we want free labor and guilt tripping you into not taking days off.
From what I've been hearing about the industry in the last few months that last one? That's the disgusting standard, you're expected to not take days off, work 100 hour weeks or do "non-mandatory" overtime to keep your job.
@@Aleara27 actually slavery is undesirable, it wasnt banned because it was immoral, it was banned because it was obsolete, all those costs about feeding, housing, cleaning are undesiraable, wage-slaving is way more atractive and passion-slaving even more.
I don't work in gaming, but do work in IT and motivated passionate people are needed. Badly. They really are. But I am the one who didn't have a vacation this year as well. I quit, because I'm not tied to one field of work and can get out of an HR echo-chamber (and also, everyone wanted for me to return so no bad rumors as well). But there's a chance of slipping into this bullshit even if the company doesn't force it. It's gratifying, too. But yeah, the thin line can be defined quite precisely. To keep me so I can train people to reduce bus-factor before I leave I got double pay for two months and could've had it for 4 more. That was a statement on behalf of my boss and that for me what separates exploitation versus force-major situations or "going above and beyond"
Oooooh don't forget = We want to take advantage of people with intellectual and social disability!!!! Yaaaaaay!😇😓😓
I was onced asked if I had a passion for fashion during an interview for Primark. Primark, and not one of the good ones.
Pirates clearly are just passionate about owning games. And the game industry, being passionate about giving people the best gaming experience are fine with just accepting that their passion is its own reward.
"It's not work, it's art!"
You know what you call art that you spend hours on for other people? Work.
^This, so many times this. That's the same defense people demanding free tracks from professional musicians and protesting against commissions coming from professional artists use, and it's invalid there as well.
"Hey Brad Pitt, I know your going rate is $20 million per picture, but movies are art, so we're not going to pay you anyth- wait, where are you going?"
The insidious thing about this argument is how it devalues the labour of the developers. "It's not real work, you make Video Games!"
It's really important to get rid of this mentality. Artists work incredibly hard to perfect themselves, and to treat them like what they do doesn't deserve payment is incredibly demeaning.
It's why, whenever possible, I buy game soundtracks I enjoy so I don't have to feel bad about listening to songs on TH-cam later.
I'm glad that CEOs of game developers refuse being paid, because they thrive on passion alone.
My entertainment shouldn't come at the expense of other peoples health. Full stop.
You don't think martial arts, boxing, MMA, sumo wrestling, movies or porn is entertainment?
Your smartphone comes at the expense people's health, so does your food. And these People arent gettimg payed half the money game developers make.
To the 2 people responding: Yeah, that's a huge fucking problem. Not to mention how most of your clothes are tailored.
Any and all professions, including ones with the intention of doing bodily harm to others, have no excuse for not being safe. The bodies in charge of running them are the ones responsible for looking out for their workers, most of which are severely underpaid and exploited like no tomorrow.
And the solution isn't to boycott, not like you fucking can because so many things are necessary for your livelihood. Still, you can raise your voices and demand each industry to hold a higher standard for how they treat their workers, and in some cases how their products treat the environment. We live in a world where nearly everything comes at lethal expenses, and it's about fucking time we do better.
@@LLtrash Yes, and that's bad.
Sadly most things in your life come at someone or something elses expense
I once saw an add in a newspaper where a restaurant actually asked if a band would like to play at their venue for free but they could "show their passion for music" and "get their name out".
The band I was in at the time answered: "Hey, would you like to throw a bbq at our place? We can't pay you but you can show your passion for food and recipies as well as getting your name out"
*chefs kiss*
Better question is, what don’t they abuse this day?
Well, CEO salaries.
They do get abused, it’s just that they’re abused by the CEOs themselves.
@@onemorescout so CEOs get bosses by more CEOs doesn't sound very chief or executive to me
CEO salaries are the epitomy of abuse, they are that high because of all the abuse.
@@theangryaustralian7624 He mean the salaries of the CEO get abused. Not the CEO themself. Ie he mean that CEO salaries is so inflated and undeserving
Standard contract for internship?
Basically slave labor but since a contract was signed it is legal.
I'd be all for it if the CEO would lead by example and accept passion as payment too.
Indeed, that's very often the smoking gun with these things.
Never hurts to ask yourself: "How rich is the guy telling me I shouldn't care about money?"
We need more Satoru Iwatas.
@@repulser93 No. All due respect to Iwata, but what we need is less CEOs. Or perhaps none at all.
@@lumpofcoal2437 You know what "CEO" stands for, right??? ... nuff said
Yeah the Japanese model is poor from the other end of the equation.
"The CEO is willing to kill himself to get this product out, why aren't you?!?"
I remember a story about Japan Airlines when they went into hard times, the CEO flew coach, cut his salary to a meager $90,000 a year, and worked 17 hour days, six days a week. Which indirectly guilted many employees to *surpass* him. 70% of "static" employees (security, terminal personnel, and so forth) wound up not seeing their families for weeks at a time as they slept at work rather than go home.
So noble as it seems _please_ do not follow the Japanese model!
"You're not a REAL ARTIST if you're 'in it for' the money!"
Nah, bro, people enjoy being able to pay for their own rent without special assistance.
Yup, like the example in the video.. I can be passionate about it, but I need to be paid bro. Possibly more so than if I didn't enjoy it because working all these hours means I can't get a second job to pay my actual rent. The don't accept enthusiasm and passion for payment.
@@paladin181 Its actually why I didn't want to become a professional artist, as sad as it is. People would tell me my painting was good all the time and that I "had to" get into it... But my response was always "would you pay for this? How much? Do you know how much time I spent on this? Too much to charge under $100 considering supplies and time." I knew I couldn't hack it...
But it turns out that it's not much different in the medical field. I work with people with varying disabilities in a group home and, since I work for a private company (state work gets good pay and benefits), I get paid only barely above minimum wage (no benefits) because I'm expected to "not be in it for the money." My boyfriend was directly told (and subsequently fired) after a pay discussion with the boss and was told that "if you're in it for the money you need to look for something else." I'm not in it for money, but I'm literally wiping ass for less than McDonald's pays! The bosses get new cars every year! Can't afford to go to college and get my nursing degree, so I'm going to change careers soon.
Did Peter Molyneux just defend crunch with the Calvin strategy?
"I work best under pressure."
"You _only_ work under pressure."
FFS
well not just, it was three and a half years ago. but yeah.
I think about that particular comic near-constantly, but I'm so used to having it the back of my mind I didn't connect it to Molyneux's statement. Dang.
as an artist who worked in the industry as an employee, contractor and self-employed: (but by no means an expert!)
-if someone wants you to work for them and you don't owe them a kidney, they pay you. if they get iffy about paying you and say something along the lines of "but you like doing that" chuck them INTO THE SEA
-ALWAYS GET A CONTRACT. if there is a work relationship, you get a contract. in this contract, it should be stipulated that you are compensated for your work, based on what, and what both parties' obligations are to each other. if copyrights are involved it should be clearly indicated for what purpose, so they can't use your work for OTHER things without having to renegotiate. it should be signed by BOTH parties BEFORE any work is done. NO CONTRACT, NO WORK. if they do fuckery by this point you shouldn't work for them anyway so time saved.
-communications is key to good relationships
-get paid by the hour. always counts your hours at your usual rate if it's a milestone-based contract so you don't overwork.
-ALWAYS GET PAID FOR OVERTIME/CORRECTIONS. better to get it in that contract. if it's not in the contract you do not do it. people will try to fuck you over on this part. do not hesitate to ask about company policies regarding those.
-don't work if you are sick, or in bad shape. healing need rest. communicate regularly about your state and needs with your employer. if they shame you for it, big red flag.
-breaks. take 'em. don't eat at the desk, go outside. a relaxed worker is a better worker. it's more efficient and you will be more focused.
-some will try to guilt you or pressure you into doing what they want regardless of contract or laws. don't. they are infringing on your rights as a worker. if it gets too much, get the fuck out. contact your worker's rights associations, etc.
-always remember it's a two way relationship, so if you do right by them, they should do right by you, and if they don't, fuck 'em.
-you can absolutely fire a client
What? Workers want to be PAID now? What kind of ridiculous world do we live in?
Hhhhahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha
Bloody entitled millenials ruining everything.
But it's not a job, it's a CALLING!!!
"Honest pay for honest work"
@@TrueEriel we call you to work whenever we want; we call you to inform you that we will pay you whenever we want (and that's only to save face and PR on the fringe moment).
So let’s do a count...
-Don’t pay their employees.
-Don’t pay their taxes.
-Charge £60 for releases.
-Charge between £70 and £200 for deluxe, ultimate and collector’s editions.
-Have microtransactions and lootboxes.
Honestly, AAA gaming is some of the scummiest businessmen in the world.
That's why it's the biggest entertainment industry on the planet, and why AAA CEOs are among the world's richest people.
Is chucklefish even AAA?
@@jackhazardous4008 Nah.
@@jackhazardous4008 Nope, but it was a company created by ex Redigit employees (the folks behind Terarria) and built their game around that. I just never knew they abused adolescence software developers for free labor, makes me sick.
I think the point of today's episode is it's not just a AAA problem.
4:40 Correction at this bit: Starbound DID use Toby Fox's music... But only AFTER he became famous with Undertale, the fuckleshits
Compared to gamefreak with little town hero
@@richardwalker2881 He at least is getting fucking PAID for that, as an employee.
Oh fuck oh fuck...
"I'd say Cucklefish but I'm not an incel" lmfao godbless
The best line in this video. Holy shit haha
"You are free to work 10, 12 or 14 hours a day, with only 8 hours paid"
"The holy grail." I don't think I've ever been so disgusted to hear that term before, to be called that in such a lecherous way.
As someone who lives with Asperger's, I can safely say his knowledge of the disorder is... laughably pathetic. Judging by his description, he's the one who has it... assuming that fat repulsive fuck ever got a girl in the first place.
DeadlockDrago I know. I was the same when I heard it for the first time in the older video. It’s still shocking now.
I'm taking a business class now and one of the things my professor said after I talked about going into a computer science degree is that people on the spectrum may one day be conceited the "normal" people when it comes to programming and neurologically typical people may be considered disabled in the futcher.
I am related to someone who is a PT who regularly works with people on the spectrum, and I can tell you that saying shit like that is wrong on several levels, but it all too accepted as a statement. Short version on why this is wrong is 1, if making so your workers can work harder means that they will regularly have sensory, life skills, and mental breakdowns the increase of production is offset by the infrastructure needed to keep that worker healthy (and you know, ethics, but that argument went out the window a long time ago) and 2, in programming you need a team of people who can effectively communicate and being on the spectrum tends to disrupt that idea.
Fuck anyone that uses “differently abled” as an excuse to not help people in need.
toko099o it’s so sad that people think it is ok to say things like that.
Hearing that actually made me feel sick.
One thing that (I believe) Jim said about the "paid by exposure" thing was back in the Paul Ryan debacle. That being "if a company can't even pay you, they won't even have the 'exposure' they promise" or something like that.
Basically if a company can actually pay you in "exposure" in any amount that is worth anything then they do, in fact, have the clicks and views. If they have clicks and views worth anything, they necessarily also have the money to pay you.
I hate the doing things for free thing, it's doubly painful as on the one hand it's just companies exploiting people, but on the other if everybody agreed not to do it it wouldn't be a thing, but there's always some people willing to try and get a leg up over other people who are better than them by doing it then forcing the better people to do it as well.
@@Barnesofthenorth
What you're describing is a consequence of any industry where supply heavily exceeds demand.
Paul Ryan (not that one), you mean.
Jim...
... we need a "people still worth buying games from" list.
It might be a smaller list than you'd expect.
Think that's going to be an exceedingly short list there friend.
Jim has stated that he has only heard fantastic things about Insomniac from its employees.
I've a suggestion: Spiders' Greedfall looks good and I haven't heard anything bad about them.
There's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism
Oh so that's why ConcernedApe of Stardew Valley cut ties with Chucklefish this year.
You could say.... their methodology was very, *ahem*, _concerning_
Turns out "crunch" is actually the sound of our hopes and dreams being unceremoniously ground to dust.
What a coincidence...
When the CEO or what ever says “you should work for passion then everyone around them should ask them when they will work for the passion and not the millions they make.
Unfortunately, business in this country was summed up perfectly by Rom in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine": "(We) don't want to stop the exploitation; we want to find a way to become the exploiters."
Sad thing is, I can sympathize with that mindset.
The whole "they have no social skills" thing must be because he's worried about threats to his power.
It's unlikely to happen, but I really hope he gets a really high functioning one that plays him like a fiddle.
That one makes me particularly angry, because I'm on the spectrum myself. Hopefully he damn suffers some day.
Aspergers are a stepping stone to AI automation.
The guy is literally using business practices to create socially isolated, and physically/mentally exhausted workforce, which in turn limits their ability to challenge their working conditions or unionise for better conditions. And the Aspergers exploitation is truly disgusting because his using someone's condition (that often results in problems with socialising) to ensure atomisation of the workforce... That guy is fucking disgusting
Tiny cock and a fragile ego for sure
As a coder who makes games in my free time, I have this to say:
When I code on my game in my own time, then I code what I want, I code what it fun to me, or will yield an end result that I believe is nice to have in my finished work.
When I code on stuff for my job, then I'm working on stuff that other people want, and not the stuff that I want. So I'm better getting paid for doing what someone else wants me to work on.
Huge difference between coding (or doing art) for yourself, versus doing it for someone else.
It may still be fun either way, but it may not be what I want. And that alone is worth the compensation. (And heck, even if what my boss/ client wants what I want as well, as soon as the product goes over into the hands of someone else, they better pay me for it, since, you know, they buying my time and work so that they can then resell the finished product.)
So remember, everyone: when someone wants something from you for free, don't do it, UNLESS you know the other person and want to be generous towards them (e.g. family)
As a fellow hobby game maker, my thoughts exactly! It's like comparing a kid giving a drawing of their imagination to their parents and an adult hired to paint a portrait of some rich stranger.
please keep up the "not that one" gag, is one of my favorites, thanks jim
Indeed
The bit about finding the holy grail of the undiscovered Asperger’s engineer makes me feel sick 🤢. And the bit about not developing attitudes is total bollocks. I’ve got attitudes and opinions. Tons in fact, to the point where there would be searching for my off button to shut me up, but I don’t have one by the way.
Another Aspie here, and with an abrasive attitude, snark and political opinions in tow.
F that guy.
It seems he's confusing "Asperger's" with "Brain dead" and judging by you guys, he's in for a nasty surprise.
"What do you mean they're *people*?!"
Was in a business lunch when i was 20 and just got my first job in the industry with a AAA exec that our studio did a project for.
and he completely casually talked about stuff like that. In that case it was mostly about using different asian cultures to overwork and exploit them as best as possible. It was like his lifes work as a studio manager that he found out how he can get the best work to pay ratio out of those asian cultures. (he was from the US)
and he ended all that with saying that if you want quality work to fix a problem you go to europe and pay them a shit ton of money and for all the other shitty work there are some indians or chinese.
Work regulations are pretty tight in austria so my work there was quite chill but i still left 1 or two months after that.
You say something about attitude and opinions? I have loads of attitude and opinions.
Off buttons!?! I'm like a steam engine, need time to get running. Need big levers and miles to get the engine to cool down.
Want to do some attitude and opinions? _I can do some attitudes and opinions!_
_Let's do some attitude and opinions!!_ *Come on let's just do it. Here we GOOOO!!!!*
Same, just reading that pissed me off so much.
I love the 14:50
"Holy Grail - The Undiscovered Asperger's Engineer"
as an 18 year old aspie considering actually working in game dev I would like to personally slap this guy in the face
NOW THAT'S PASSION!!!
That's the spirit!
I'm an asperger trying to make my own game, and I almost feel tempted to work for the asshat just to disappoint him. I have severe problems concentrating on work, even when I do want to do the work. My powers of asperger have not transformed me into a workaholic, like this shitstain assumes.
bificommander same here
I didn't realise we had "Aspie" as a slang term.
HI person with aspergers here. Here's your daily reminder we are not robots, we do enjoy having social lives, we have multiple interest and like to feed all of those interests. We are human beings just like you we have needs and wants so do not abuse us please
The fact that we have to remind human beings that we are, in fact, also human beings is sad.
Actually that would only be surprising if the heads of these companies were human in the first place.
Wait I'm human too? Couldn't someone have told me sooner;-)
It's so disgusting to see people act like your problems make you into some perfect employee machine to accept abuse without issue. Disgusting. I'm sorry we live in societies like this...
I might talk like Data, but I sure as hell am not an android with infinite stamina. I need my alone time chilling with my cat
The abuse is very blatant in Silicon Valley and other tech hubs
"Nobody gives a care about the fate of labor as long as they get their instant gratification" ~ Squidward Tentacles
What a wonderful idea It is true that lots of people put the highest priority on instant gratification.
What episode was that from?
@@DetectorCliche "Squid On Strike"
@@lukeusernameGoddamn its been forever since I last saw that ep.
My only question is...... What is spongebob taking Squidward's words too literally and destroying the Kristy krab a metaphor for..... You know the action that causes all the negotiations Squidward did with Mr. krabs to go up in smoke and basically land him in indentured servitude for eternity.
Game workers need to unionize at once. God dammit.
I would say no to crunch as soon as possible to get fired and get it over with. My rule is that if the job lasts less than one month, I will pretend I never worked there and will leave it off my resume.
I remember reading a comment by a guy upset that CDPR "Theoretically" may not be using crunch for Cyperpunk. He argued that if a game like Witcher 3 needed exploitative crunch to be made, it was worth every bit of worker suffering. Few things have depressed me like that attitude.
That sounds like a comment that should be read by a 17th century aristocrat.
ROYSTON!!!!
@Hakageryuu The creepy thing is - there are actually people that have that attitude BECAUSE they had shitty parts in their live. A "my life was shit, so why should theirs be better". Alex Saint John actually justified his demands at game devs by stating that he had an early live devoid of many luxuries and because compared to that game dev work and life in general and crunch in particular was not that bad, it would be entitled to think otherwise. After all, if normal toilets and heating is already a massive improvement to you, someone taking these things for granted and protests the very life that was a massive improvement to you as unfairly harsh does come of as entitled and "whiny".
Though just because that stance is understandable, I still do not like it or people using it and ESPECIALLY not when it concerns working condition or living conditions:
Firstly, we could always argue that against any improvement or feeling you deserve something.
Secondly, our modern sensibilities of what is too much work or undue pay are not just based on some sense of entitlement. We have scientific studies showing that something like 80 hour weeks are unhealthy and inefficient. Its not a random statement, it has a scientific basis. As has getting paid proportional to your work, this is the most efficient way for the system overall to run.
Thirdly and most importantly its just a bad attitude. Its understandable to envy those that have it better, but its still not good. Better to be thankfull that younger generations do not have to go through the same stuff than demand they do. After all, this is how we get forward.
@@bificommander7472 but it's 100% true, and I think very well said. I also don't see how being articulate and impassioned somehow comes off to you in a way that suggest it should be said in a funny voice. (aside from the phrase bottom dollar maybe, but I'm kidding, although I do think it is well said and actually a serious issue, and also I somehow didn't even really notice the use of 'bottom dollar' when I first read it).
@Hakageryuu Huh, well, no offense to the OP, but there's only one comment that deserves to be read in said voice..
also, now that I think about it, I consider it not only glib, but insulting to suggest that being articulate and using somewhat more complex grammar should be equated with having lots of money, or, rich people are smart and poor people aren't.
Not really, but I get mad thinking about how evil rich people are, and how fucked up you'd have to be to hoard large amounts of money.
Ah... The 'passion' excuse.
Like my primary school teacher used to do to me.
'Yes, I marked her down on her report'.
'why? was her work bad?'
'no, it was nearly flawless.'
'then what?'
'She wasn't enthusiastic enough while doing it'.
I mean... Seriously.
But no, that IS what the world is like as an adult in some industries huh.
Wow.
What? The fuck? I hate teachers like that man.
The irony is that the education industry also runs big on passion and once it's sucked that passion dry out of teachers, it spits them out without a qualm.
Bah... what a disappointment to see Chucklefish being a bunch of shitheads. Thank god for your work Jim, another developer to not support in the future.
Meh, keep buying their stuff.
Most companies don't have the marketing insight necessary to know they are being boycotted.
Instead write them a short letter on how you feel about their practices. Then write them another at a random time from 1 week to two months from now, so that they get a barrage of critisim now, and they are shown people don't forget these things as well.
Seriously. I love what they put out, I'm going to feel really guilty buying or playing another game from them.
Considering it happened years ago, I'd have hoped their statement was "Yes, we treated them poorly before, but we've taken steps since those days, upon growing larger as a company and with a change of management, to better compensate our workers."
The "We're sorry you felt like you should have been paid" statement suggests it's still an ongoing issue.
Its about time someone like Jim spoke out against Chucklefish.
Back when Starbound was in development and early access, it played out almost exactly like some of the worst Kickstarter disasters. Mismanagement, failure to meet promises, design team upheaval, and an underwhelming product.
Its a miracle that game is what it is today. But that doesn't excuse Chucklefish anymore than NMS and Hello Games.
Coding is basically engineering. It lacks the physical aspect so it's hard to quantify it, but the abstract flow of the work is the same.
See, the battery is a metaphorical representation of the overworked and exploited worker, so casually discarded when they desperately need time to recharge...
That battery comparison is very good I really like it
So, what's the conversion rate of passion to exposure?
Depends on the country. Here in the US, you can get 1 exposure for about every 36.29 passion.
@@raf74hawk12 doesn't sound like a good conversion to me. Can I just buy exposure? That's probably better, if I had any money.. I suppose I should just non-gmo pasteurize my own exposure.
@@dddmemaybe Well the irony is that it actually is quite easy to buy exposure. The more money you have, the more exposure you can get, and anyone who tells you differently is probably trying to sell an Eragon.
I suppose in Jim Sterling Analogy Terms, "Passion" is the bullshit free currency, and "Exposure" is the actually useful currency, and they try to get you hooked in by explaining that Passion can totally be exchanged for Exposure, but the cost is in actuality so ruinous that it's not worth it.
@@dddmemaybe I'm pretty sure that's just called advertising
EA: ohh pick me!...we closed down so many studios and passion project...we got the answer!
It should be obvious, but it bears repeating: the people who talk about "passion" the most tend to make shitloads of money off of the work of others.
Apparently *their* true passion is making money. Funny how that works.
I'm 22 and I've learnt already - keep passion away from employers. I'll get the job done for them, but my passion projects? Nah fam, I keep those for myself, so no fucko can interfere with my vision and stand between me and my paycheck. But still, I'll give somebody's idea my full professionalism if they pay me, but it all mostly serves fueling my passion.
Coming from someone who's been fucked over on a freelance project that has been crunched into an unbelievably capable (albeit rushed) product, which has been swiftly abandoned after release because it didn't meet expectations that noone communicated to me...
... Splitting into "work" and "passion" is probably the best advice you could ever give to somebody like us.
I hope you will say the same when you have to employ others to fullfil your projects. When you are a boss you need to keep both the employer and the employees happy. Being a boss Its awfull, but someone has to do It, and its easy to be an awful boss than a good one.
@@samuelhackson828 Yeah, often the sad reality - crunch, lack of direction and playing hot potato with the blame after it flops. And expecting shit without expressing it first - damn, that should be covered by the contract, because that seems very abusable.
@@bemersonbakebarmen Yeah, I think I have this mostly figured out. I'll be more of a leader - since I already do most of the work in many fields of game development myself, I know what's reasonable to expect from others. I'd actually fairly enjoy my job being mostly comming up with ideas and having other people realize them for me, I'd make sure to explain the task well, make many crucial parts myself, and pay as deserved. Also, I think I'd have this policy, that anyone can pitch a game or show me a prototype, and if I'm sold on it, I'd fund boost it a little and keep giving that person their salary while they work on it, in exchange I'd cut some percent of the profit. That way my potential employees would simultaneously get to have a stable job and to fulfill their passion projects from time to time.
Yeah, I have plans for this all, the hard part is stopping being too broke to begin :D
To those who don't know yet and might've thought otherwise, Stardew is no longer published by the Chucklefucks, its solo dev went indie. If you feel a very sudden and totally irrational urge to hurl an insult or a tirade at CF, don't do it in SV reviews or forums, it's pointless there and only puts (likely) undeserved excess pressure on the guy.
"If you expect money, you're entitled!"
Yes. You are. You ARE entitled to compensation. You are entitled to it BY LAW. That's the foundation of economics: you work, you get paid.
14:55 People with Aspergers can also get overwhelmed very easily and shut down altogether. I have Aspergers and a graduate degree in Meteorology, and the abusive and exploitative nature of corporate work caused me so much fear that I developed ergophobia. I haven't been able to land a full-time job despite trying with the ergophobia. Exploitative employers like Alex St. John is who I irrationally fear in corporate work, and employers like him and others spoil the good employers and make me irrationally afraid of trying to find the good employers. Yes, abusive video game companies make me afraid of any corporate work because the attitudes of exploitation and "profit and nothing else" are not limited to the video game industry.
My point is that exploiting Aspies is possibly going to make more of them afraid to work altogether since they have fewer job options due to their disability. If the job they can do is exploitative and abusive, they may not want to work it, leaving them unable to do any job and having to live off of disability or worse. It's a toxic attitude that needs to be punished, but in our archaic corporatist system that treats workers like robots and rewards every way to make a profit, no matter how destructive, amoral, or downright evil it is, I don't see it being reprimanded or deterred anytime soon.
You know, after reading your comment and hearing what Jim says, I hope this guy has a nice long life. Because when he dies, there is a very special place in hell for schmucks like him.
Had my previous boss basically tell me it was my fault for witnessing a shooting once
I have ASD, subtype PDA (Pathological demand avoidance), I went to Uni to be a games designer (early 2000s), but couldn't handle the demands of the course-work. That said, I had already started seeing the industry for what it was and where it was going by the time I dropped out, so I have little regret about walking away. Ended up working retail for a few years, till I burned out on that too. I am now on disability (for depression), and doubt I will be capable of working as a 'wage slave' ever again. I also hate corporate rule, so I identify a lot with your post, you are not alone! :)
Now would be a good time to do an episode tearing apart the following ideas:
- Homo economicus, or the idea that humans are “rational actors”, despite extensive psychological research showing precisely the opposite (i.e. Luxury Fever, Predictably Irrational, Thinking Fast & Slow)
- The just-world fallacy, the idea that nothing good or bad happens to a person unless they truly deserve it.
- The self-made man, which is self-explanatory
- The idea that the “thinking” part of your brain is always in charge of your emotions or instincts/impulses, despite that having also been disproven by psychologists (i.e. Jonathan Haidt).
These four philosophies underlie the arguments made by corporate mouthpieces and game industry executives.
That's a lot of words. You can just say "There is no ethical capitalism" and be just as correct.
@@SomeBlokeOrWhatever Non of the cited misconceptions exist exclusively in one worldview.
GAME CORPORATION LOGIC DIRECTIVES:
1. ABUSE THE PUBLIC TRUST
2. SCAM THE INNOCENT
3. COINBASE THE LAW
DIRECTIVE 4. (CLASSIFIED) but it helps to have a map))
The exploitation of people on the spectrum is especially disgusting more so then the regular exploitation under Capitalism. I have Aspergers and to think about having special interests taken advantage of is appalling.
Same here, and I find the idea that people on the spectrum somehow wouldn't have emotions or opinions appalling, plus I'm sick to death of the stereotype that all people with Aspergers are inept teenage boys who hate talking and have no friends but are magical savants when it comes to anything mathematical or coding related.
As a fellow Autism person, i'm right there with you
I work in IT, and on the rare occasion I work late I find myself completely unable to think creatively around a particular problem. What we as a team tend to do after hours is the same things we tried earlier which didn't work then either. We don't have the energy to come up with a new solution. E.G Molyneux is talking bollocks, as usual.
Chucklefish - We are saddened to hear the allegations regarding Starbound's early development...
York - What's this? Clear as a crisp spring morning: B. S.! In the coffee!
It's as if some fat cat CEO heard the saying that, 'if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life', and took it literally.
"people wiht asperger's don't develop attitudes or politiacl positions" boy hes in for a rude awakening
Alex St. John is a fucking bastard.
I work a full time job in order to keep the lights on and keep food in my belly but in my time off I'm making a small computer game. It's nothing special, just a fun little project that I hope will eventually be quite fun to play.
Though it is currently less than 2000 lines of coding, I have written every single word of it. Solving some of the issues has taken days of working out the bugs, whereas other days I am able to write a whole script without any errors. However my days turn out, it is a daily grind.
I come home from work and do a couple of hours coding before bed, and my days off are virtually nothing but hardcore scripting sessions at this point.
2000 lines might not sound like much but trust me, when you're working full time and coding everything solo, it's still not much, but it takes time.
Naturally it's only my hobby and I'm financing myself, I expect no monetery compensation for my time and effort, because it's not my job. I'm doing it because I want to, because it's MY project and MY vision.
It's heartbreaking to hear that people who went to school to learn coding, the people who are so talented at it that they can be employed by others to complete projects that they themselves have basically zero artistic input into, are being treated as though they themselves are supposed to be passionate about someone elses project to the point that their career is treated like nothing more than a hobby.
I pity anyone that took this path now, though I used to envy them. I'm glad that I chose to teach myself and work alone as opposed to a collage education and a job in a real game studio, because apparently it's not even valued as a real job anymore.
I'd like to blame the Dunning Kruger effect. It seems easy to outsiders because they've spent so many years studying that it is almost as natural for them as breathing and so you see no value in it, because you don't see the years of studying, only the breathing.
You mean companies in general.
I had to work at McDonald's for 3 months and the kitchen manager once accused me of not being passionate enough when I complained my position was wreaking havoc on my back.
Mate, I'm making fries and packaging them while using an appliance that is meant for people half my height, sorry I don't want to become a hunchback.
Brother I hear that, at Burger King no matter how fast you make a burger it isn't fast enough, and the high drive through time is somehow always your fault
Don't let those fuckleshits get you permanently injured, record what they say and take it to management and if management doesn't like that get a lawyer and sue the shits because if you don't get a life injury from there inability to manage properly, someone else will.
I really enjoyed/had passion for my job at a grocery store with my good boss till they quit and I got a new boss. Being responsible, I told the new boss about my previous back injuries and they immediately told me that if I ever wanted my raise and new job position I would have to be able to do everything required. They then put me on lifting all the heavy deli salads and meats (which of course good boss never had me do); back gave up after a month of that and has had a permanently pinched nerve leaving me on disability for the last decade. I took them all the way through workers tribunal, they showed up late to court and still won... FUCK THEM
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 ah yes. The capitalist system hard at work as it was designed.
I feel for you mate. I have my fare share of horrendous work abuse stories myself. Solidarity.
Same. I was told almost constantly that I "don't have to work here" and that I should "help me (the manager) out" by overworking myself in 90+ degree weather with no guarantee of hydration (physical labor, btw). I couldn't quit fast enough.
I had a note from the hospital, couldn't even walk. Spouse had to take it in.
They were told I either came in or was fired. Gotta love probation periods.
The funny thing being they couldn't even get enough staff to properly staff the place as it was. Yet opened another location in town... Yeah. Long lines no matter how fast you worked, and if you were disabled... A nightmare.
This was a gas station that I'm not sure about having locations all that many places.
"Targeting people with Aspergers,"
Oh frick no he did not! The bloody hell what publishers _can_ I buy from at this point?! 😡
Here's the thing with us Aspies, we have _meltdowns._ If we get too stressed, too overwhelmed, too under or over stimulated (like working at a desk) we frigging *EX-PLODE.* Yelling, loud sobbing, fist pounding, self hitting, if a toddler will do it a twenty something Aspie will. It looks like a tantrum. It feels like a tantrum. But damn if it ain't hella necessary. I won't be surprised if developers shovel in as many Aspies as they can get only for things to break down the moment crunch time happens. Depending on how bad the cause of the meltdown is working on the thing that _caused_ it will be out of the question. Aspies can and will leave once shoved hard enough. Once friends are fired and family gets involved. Producers are just asking for a shit storm if they think combining us with crunch is a good idea.
Edit: holy heck there's a good discussion going on here. Thanks guys.
As someone with Asperger's who has a social life can change their job and has a healthy work-life balance f*** you hard
As someone with Asperger's that barely has a social life and can't hold down a job in the first place... Well, yeah, I don't actually know what we're complaining about yet, but fuck it in advance...
Edit: oh. There it is. Fuck that right to hell. Arrogant ass that guy is huh.
Oh and of course if you then combine it with the earlier slide about the 'mythical' female engineer... Holy crap is that annoying. XD
All Publishers Are Bastards
Aspergers I worked with were actually the first ones to call bullshit on things, so I encourage him to employ them lol
Nintendo says fuck crunch, their shareholders wig dropping their stock, and the Big N just marches along, dick swinging. With the breeze in their ball hairs.
To quote Jimmy Neutron:
"Let the exploitation begin!"
That's a quote?
@@hyperx72 It is now.
@@hyperx72 From the episode Krunch Time (which is even more awkward)
As someone who's been given the game dev passion speech in the past thank you for what you do Jim. More newbies need to be aware of it and more studio heads need to try paying for their Mercedes with "passion".
"You want money? You're entitled!" classic psychological projection.
"wanna be a game dev? work for free"
basically the reason why indie devs are a thing. They effectively work for free but then get a return once their game sells. But then they can ACTUALLY make a game with their passion
Yes it just doesent work if companys are using Startup tatics when not being Start-ups at all. The richer devs sure started to like Kickstarter and following the Image of Indy Studios or outright buying them out.
"i would say Cucklefish but i'm not an incel"
spat my goddamn coffee lmao, nice
"Chucklefucks" sounds better anyway.
As Cultist Simulator puts it: "A job is an arrangement to exchange one's life for money".
0.0 I like that.
Cultist simulator? I'll be looking that up later.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the developer for Cultist Simulator (Alexis Kennedy) was recently accused of sexually and professionally preying on young women in the game industry.
@@havenkayes Source plz
www.rockpapershotgun.com/2019/09/04/alexis-kennedy-denies-allegations-of-abusive-or-coercive-behaviour/
The saddest thing is the exploited workers who invariably come out to defend abusive companies in response to stories like this.
If they don't public defend this b.s
the bosses suggest they might not be a "team player" and suggest This Company might not be the "right environment" for them.
Even sadder when you realize they're forced to do that.
Aaayyyy Amazon and Disney, amirite?
As someone with Asperger's...that bit ticked me off.
As someone who is officially considered straight-up crazy by the government, Shut Up and deal with it. The world is against you, society is against you. Quit whining about it.
@@jmlkhan5153 a little more positivity mate, not everyone is against you just the dicks who don't understand the concept of fairness and decency.
On the other hand that's a good attitude to take when you want to be careful. Just don't overindulge.
Things like that should tick everyone off. It shows that our employers are just wolves waiting for the right isolated lamb to kill. They will pay a regular employee well because regular employees have standards and other options for lines of work. People like you with Asperger's or other conditions that make finding employment unimaginably difficult don't tend to have other options, and so they are ripe to be picked up and kept as slaves. Wage slaves if you're lucky.
@@jmlkhan5153 *don't shut up and deal not WITH it, but with IT. Aggressively. Until it stops.
@@jmlkhan5153 But that means no more pity points and actually facing your problems instead of enjoying them.
"IT's a ChoICe!" Yeah, like between execution and exile in The Dark Knight Rises...
"Slavery was a choice."
Haha, that's a good analogy.
Crane: “Now, what will it be? Death or Overtime?”
Jim Sterling: “Crane, if you think we're going to work such insane crunch hours willingly, you got another thing coming!”
Crane: “So it's death then?”
Jim Sterling: “Looks that way.”
Crane: “Very well. Death... By Overtime!”
@@markcobuzzi826 Damn that's good, only way it could be better would be if it was Bobby Kotick(not that one) saying it.
I will definitely enjoy this latest episode of the documentary "Never Work in the Game Industry"
here in Europe it can be quite good. I work in austria and im sometimes in a german studio for collab. Work here is pretty chill. i havent worked any overtime since i started working 3 years ago.
I think "Never Work In Any Industry In The USA" is probably quite apt.
Friendly reminder that Chucklefish is based in London.
Honestly, I feel like it might be a good idea to try solo projects at first if you want to make a name for yourself, or just try and find the right people to throw your lot in with.
The entire Business World is fucked beyond all repair really, positive reciprocity (you work hard for an employer and they get your back, IE. Job Stability and keep you advancing IE. Raises and promotions.) yeah all that is fucking deader than disco only the mercs get anywhere and even then only the ones who already have a foot in the door or have friends in high places, the stock market and the obscene amount of power the board of directors have over everyone in the company including CEOs has destroyed the power dynamic between producer and consumer, (the fact that most investors rich enough to be on the board are out of touch boomers makes things even worse!), then there's the systematic annihilation of merit! There's nepotism and networking being given massive priority over actual skill and credentials, diversity hiring, and the political zeitgeist mafia, the last of which will not only unfairly and illegally discriminate job applicants based on political ideology, but will also blacklist them and attempt to destroy their careers in entire industries if they don't fall in line. Entry level job positions don't exist anymore so anyone who doesn't already have work experience has almost no chance of getting into the job market at all in any field. An extremely overcrowded job market, too many people not enough jobs, which has led to this sort of credentials arms race which I believe is a huge part of what destroyed the concept of entry level. Lack of enforcement of anti-trust laws or government outright sanctioning leading to corporate cabal oligarchies operating openly in most fields and choking any meaningful competition that tries to exist into oblivion. I could go on and on and on but TL:DR the entire business world in developed nations is FUBAR most of the problems I listed are not unique to any one nation you're basically screwed no matter where you live or where you go!
I worked for 6 months in game studio this year formed by professionals of the industry. After all that hard work I discovered the boss of the project was giving the credit of my work to his brother to falsely improve his portfolio. almost half a year later and after confronting him with this I'm still waiting for ANY compensation, payment or even aknowledgement that I ever worked in the project at all. If I go public with this the only one that loses for sure is me as with his contacts I would have a really hard time finding any game job again. This is just one of many, many similar or worse cases in this industry. We need union power, now!
That sucks ... I am a QA by profession, and always thought of working the gaming industry, because I love games, so it would be a win-win, right?
But I never did (nothing available locally until recently), and I must say, that in the last few years, my desires for that have completely disappeared.
I would seriously advice you to find employment outside the industry. It is not as "glamerous" but it is often much better paid and with more reasonable working conditions.
I would certainly NEVER advice a fellow QA to work in gaming.
They treat people like trash because they can always get another body to do your work. If people stopped looking for those kinds of jobs, then the industry would have to offer proper conditions to attract people.
Get up, stand up. There's a power in a Union.
Sneakily make all the work look really shitty? Or maybe put your name in the code as proof? I'm not sure what you could do I'm sorry.
That's really sad to hear. Maybe PM Jim and tell him your story? I don't know what else to suggest I'm afraid.
I'm not saying this would work. But maybe you could feign incompetence. So at least you're not the one doing someone else's work.
I'm always so glad when you cover this stuff Jim. A lot of games media tend to pussyfoot around these issues (or undermine their significance), so the importance of having a light shined on these terrible practices every week cannot be overstated. Amazing work as always! =D
It warms my heart whenever Jim makes a video reminding people how ALL of the videogame industry is cesspool of scumbags, and not just big AAA publishers!
Remember, if what Chucklefish did concerns you, you are against companies going unchecked in how they do business.
Thanks, Captain Obvious.
@@KuroNoTennoDon't remain silent on the system that allows them to do it.
Part of the reason the gaming industry is so susceptible to labour abuse is because it's never had Unions. All companies of all businesses will exploit their workers as much as they can get away with. Unions set lines that the companies cannot cross without difficulty. Even after Unions get gutted by conservative legislation, these lines are difficult to move after they've been drawn. Game artists and programmers need to unionize if they want the abuse to stop.
you can't tell your political stance from your comment at all ;)
Then they might be as good as public schools.
@@pawwilon sanity is a political stance yes
@@pawwilon wanting better conditions for workers isnt a political stance you fucking twat
Spot on. It's similar to how the film industry was decades ago before actors, writers etc. began to unionise. Back then film studios basically screwed over their employees in every way they could especially when it came to things like royalties.
Screen writers in f.ex the American film and television industry are entitled to royalties while game writers are not. The former has the backing of two fairly powerful unions (Writers Guild of America, East and West) while the latter does not. I doubt that is a coincidence.
Wow Jim, it's impressive that you actually got the real Peter Molyneux to voice his own quote there!
The term for it is "Assion", where you're taking the pee out of passion.
Brilliant, thank you for making my day
I went to my local shop and tried getting a game just by quoting these _brilliant_ and _always honest_ CEOs: "ArT haS nO pRiCe!"
*I got thrown out*
AAA execs need consumer passion like Dementors need happiness because they themselves have none, but for the green.
Not just gaming companies, you can apply it to every major company.
I hear it all the time.
I'm sitting here, nodding as I hear the typical corporate exploitative methods, then you mention Asperger's and I nearly blow chunks on the spot. That is just... wow
Wow I have aspergers and that was insulting, exploiting a person's disability or passion for profit or even emotional reasons or any other reason is thoroughly despicable.
I pirated EASTWARD then told my friends that it was good, therefore i didnt really pirate it because i gave it exposure, right?
you joke but its been proven by multiple studies that piracy increases sales because of word of mouth and people wanting support developers of games they like.
You're clearly just very PASSIONATE about games, and considering 'passion' seems like gold dust to publishers, that's already payment enough. :)
Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb would concur! Especially since Greenlight broke itself and crap flooded his category.
"I'm doing this bit here just out of, ya know, respect for the format."
Don't you mean PASSION for the format!
I'll see myself face-first into an ant hill.
Finally someone is calling out Chucklefish. Thanks!
They got rightfully shit on around the original "Early Access" release of Starbound (For shittons of undelivered promises that were unbelievably impossible in hindsight and they should have known. Also, spending crowdfunding money on seemingly trivial shit.), but they've been having it easy recently. Guess some things never change.
Ah, I suppose this might be related to ConcernedApe splitting from Chucklefish.
Boy am I glad they are no longer associated I really like Stardew
JudgementRyu999 THANK GOD I WAS WORRIED FOR HIM
Makes one wonder doesn't it?
They were just a publisher so I'm guessing the huge success of Stardew and all the money with it was the decision.
One might say @Spiraling Downward was
concerned
Jim, I wanted to personally thank you for presenting this report several months ago as you did. Thanks to it, I looked into my own past situations and have just today been diagnosed with Asperger's.
Not the greatest way to find out, mind you. Thinking about how I previously felt exploited in order to draw the connections, but still, it brings new light to a number of areas in my life I had been frustrated with.
So, once again, thank you.
It's also worth mentioning that shorter work hours are linked to higher or equal productivity than those who work 40 hour or longer work weeks. As it turns out, having leisure time in where you can recharge mentally, physically and socially improves one's wellbeing and increases their efficiency as they aren't zoning out from fatigue or ennui.
As someone on the autistic spectrum working very unsocial shifts in an emergency service role struggling to have a social life outside of work to the detriment of my mental health...to hear that CEOs in this industry view people like me with our disability and impaired social skills as cash cows they can make money out of...that fucking sickens me. Greedy selfish fucking Bastards.
The industry needs to unionize ASAP.
Real engineers, real gamers, real music, real literature...
The word gets abused so much and it's always by people trying to impose their own views on how something should be on others.
Yep. Just because you came up in a way that was harder doesn't mean that it has to remain that way. Times change like nickels and dimes.
@@thepassingstatic6268 Exactly. I hate that attitude, even if it is understandable. I mean I can understand if someone, to whom even video game crunch seems like heaven finds the calling for smaller work weeks and pay that would have been ridicolous in their day entitled. But while understandable, its still the wrong attitude. Instead its better to celebrate that improvement (which Saint John does) AND demand it to be taken further on what is possible and fair (which he does not).
@@darkfyraproductions7958 Honestly, this kind of sentiment is (luckily) decreasing when it comes to literature. Though there is still a holdout that in professional circles "old" literature is often considered better for virtues that might baffle more "normal" readers. But it is in my experience mostly toned down to understandable levels, e. g. simply that older works still relevant today have proven their timeless quality by that more than more recent works.
I thought the whole "fantasy is not a real genre" was dead, since even more recent phenomenons are getting more accepted in more classical circles (pop, video games), at least certain variants.
I mean fantasy has been established as a real genre pretty much since Tolkien. Of course there were more than just Tolkien, he is just the biggest name and his name alone tends to shut up most debates if fantasy can be a real genre.
I understand it on a work-by-work basis, stuff like A Song of Ice and Fire is highly device with everything between "artistic masterpiece" and "uses copious amounts of sex and violence to hide its massive shortcomings". But the entire genre... Did not think these people are still around in any capacity.
Ohhhh, I see how this works!
I'll give these companies a similar unpalatable choice. I can either not buy your games or set sail. It's your choice, no pressure.
I've been on the fence about the whole Chucklefish fiasco for a while now, and I was honestly hoping to hear what the company themselves had to say about it. And, well, I don't know what I expected. I don't even feel angry, just... Sad. Sad that one of my favourite games was basically made by 21st century slave labour, sad that people are boycotting the game they already bought (which does fuck all) over this, sad that it all happened when it really didn't need to.
The worst thing is, if the contract says they won't be paid, the fish of chuckles won't even be doing anything illegal *to my knowledge* (and by that I mean feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Oh they'll still be a load of manipulative, exploitative twats for doing this in the first place, but it won't technically be fraudulent or lying, as they stated that they won't be paid. Again, if it was implied they'll be paid in conversation, but not written on the contract, it's still INCREDIBLY scummy but I don't think it's fraudulent.
However, the saddest thing is that boycotting their games only causes the hard work of those amaetur devs, all of which put their very heart and soul into this stuff, to merely go to waste. It's quite the moral conundrum: boycott the game, it flops and the devs see it as a failure on their part, and so will people looking at what they worked on, which is guaranteed to hurt then later on, or buy it, and the publisher; Chucklefish, in this case, continues to profit of other people's unpaid labour. There is no winning strategy and there are no winners except the ones doing the exploiting, and it just makes me really, really depressed.
Are you perhaps thinking about a way where people will still get to play this game and enjoy it in a way that ensures the exploiters never get payed?
If only someone on the internet figured out a way.....
And in a way that ensures the people who worked their asses off actually get the payment they deserve, so straight-up piracy isn't exactly the best way of going about it.
Put Born Depressed up on Spotify
...
you have 24 hours to comply
They talk about having the passion to see things through, but any amount of passion can be destroyed by sustained exposure to negative environments. So even if they did have the passion at the beginning, they may not after a few months of unpaid overtime.
Huh...That chuckling smiling fish seems a lot more sinister now, doesn't it?
i threw my back out unloading a truck at my job, told my manager i was going home early (2hrs left on shift out of 8) and she tried to guilt me into staying despite me literally crying in pain and barely able to move. i went home anyhow since i my personal health is more important to me then my job (not trying to look down on those who fall for the pressure)
Irony: A company named after an inability to sleep being one of the companies that gives it's employees the most time they can spend sleeping.
Insomniac?
@@Thelango99 +500 Points! Next question, what is the song that goes "Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Undercover Date, Yay!", and who sings it?
I should point out as a early early backer of starbound, I knew that Starbound was trouble the moment they changed 80% of the game's design and story around year 2-3 of the game's development. The second warning was when they bought an office, lost the original core engine coder, and became a publisher. It is true that they published good games. But it is worth noting none of chucklefishes devs worked on their published games with a few exceptions. Stardew valley was largely the work of one dev.
It isn't suprising that a newbie dev company wouldn't be good at business.
Honestly I wouldn't call Starbound worth playing or even finished
the story mode is dull and nobody wanted it, the game chugs and struggles to load planets even on good hardware, and the game is horribly repetitive with dull boss fights.
The terraria devs havent been exactly perfect of late but their game turned out a hell of a lot better. Hearing that the devs of starbound are apparently total assholes just makes sense to me now
Half Life 2 is one of the best games ever made. And it was delayed twice specifically because it wasn't done. You know what they didn't do? Lock their employees in the building and crunch them to death.
I may think Valve's "desks have wheels" policy has prevented them from releasing more than one game a decade in the last decade, but at least it's fucking humane. The Half Life 2 crew literally couldn't be crunched inhumanely because if the bosses tried, all the devs would have wheeled their desks over to the CounterStrike and Team Fortress 2 labs instead. The workers had that little bit of power. And it produced Half Life 2.
Imagine that
What you’re saying goes beyond the games industry and into the arts in general. Art and creative work should be valued and respected. Creativity comes at a premium. Most people are not that creative, contrary to popular belief.
And more ASMR Jim when?
I designed a Tshirt for No More Heroes 2 and only noticed I won the contest when I saw my shirt in the game. I love videogames.
Nothing gives me more passion for doing my work than me knowing i get paid for it. If my head chef told me that my love for making food would result in him paying me less, then I would stick my middle finger in his face and leave.
Ah, capitalism. Looking forward to the day my passion for building guillotines comes into demand.
lol keep larping buddy.
I personally believe they should be strapped to a chair and fed all the money they have in blank notes and for their money go to helping the homeless and sick children.
@@DeadNoob451 ok projector
@@inkaf225 Username checks out.
DeadNoob do not think that the contemporary world doesn’t also larp day in and day out itself, extolling virtues that it never amounts to based on a century of propaganda and propped up by anti labour laws and death. The idea that everything is ok whilst the world burns down is the greatest larp of all, it doesn’t hold a candle to tankies, nazis, and anarkids on the Internet.