How To Build "The World's Best Speakers" - Are Flat Panel Speakers Really Any Good?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 พ.ค. 2024
- Flat panel speakers built from foam boards and Dayton Audio exciters can't really sound good, right? Over on @TechIngredients they shared a design for "The World's Best Speakers". I just could not believe speakers made out of a $5 piece of foam board outperformed many bookshelf speakers, so I decided to build them so I could hear them for myself. While I'm not sure that they can rightfully claim the title of "World's Best", they are very good, and very cheap to build.
As part of the preparation to do a follow-up video on these panels, I build an inexpensive binaural microphone and added acoustic insulation to my walls. Here's how: • What Is A Binaural Mic...
The full set of speakers from Tech Ingredients includes a total of 8 different panels, using different materials, shapes, and sizes. I elected to build just these 2 panels as a way to dip my toes in the water of DIY speaker systems and to see if their claims could possibly be true. The foam boards each cost me around $5, and the exciters were around $25 each. I can’t believe the sound quality I’m getting out of a set of speakers I built in a few minutes for only $60 in parts!
Tech Ingredients Video: • World’s Best Speakers!
#CheapSpeakers, #DIYAudio, #GarageSpeakers
🕐 0:00 Introduction
🕐 0:42 Parts Required
🕐 1:48 Shaping The Foam Panels
🕐 3:39 Mounting Hardware
🕐 5:18 Placing The Exciters
🕐 7:14 Testing Setup
🕐 7:38 First Impressions
🕐 11:08 Compared To Cell Phone Speakers
🕐 12:00 Other Thoughts
🕐 12:52 Conclusion
🕐 13:44 Bloopers
Need some of the tools or other items I used in this video? Clicking these and buying something will send a few pennies to help this channel, and does not cost you anything extra:
🛒 Dayton Audio Exciter: amzn.to/356Rd7I
🛒 Amplifier: amzn.to/3hAMNuS
🛒 Foam Panels: thd.co/3yMOCNr
🛒 Epoxy: amzn.to/3b3MUy4
🛒 Cotter Pins: amzn.to/38WnFuB
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Follow-up video is here: th-cam.com/video/XC814uQjlaE/w-d-xo.html
The best test of this audio would be outdoors to eliminate the acoustic value of the garage
I saw a these at DoD research facility back in 1980. The engineer used expanded polystyrene foam and the sound wasn't that great. You explained why his sounded so bad. He hung them on the wall vs susended them and his mounting points were on the upper corners. The kind of foam he used probably had a impact too.
@AmplifyDIY I've used those kind of speakers 15 years or more ago, except back then when you bought the 2 speaker set, at if I remember correctly, something like 6x12 in size, they used a stiff cardboard or what looked like cardboard anyway... Another couple of differences were the fact that it somehow made sound by using something like a piezoelectric speaker, such as you find in a talking birthday card, and not an exciter, and also, they weren't hanging off the wall, they were in a plastic shell so they "looked" like a "thin" desktop speaker... Not trying to throw shade on your video, it's just something that I thought you might find interesting
A guy sure does like that hat 😁
@@Wbroach24 Well, I'll be dipped!
I built a pair of these about a year ago, you will need a good amp to drive these but they (can) sound ridiculously good for what they are. After building (or let's better say, slapping them together) I ended up sitting in my basement and listening to all kinds of music for hours because I was so amazed of the sound.
Hearing is believing. I was absolutely stunned by how good they are.
i made concrete pipe speakers 8 inch round 4 foot long it was a 8 foot long pipe cut inb half with a 8 inch bass in the top full freq in the bottom you can paint them the colour of your room and the sound is like this put them in the corner of a rectangler room and the sound travells the floor and ceiling reflects of the back wall and if you are in the middle of the room its surround sound with 2 speakers whereever you are in the room the sound is around you and is strongest dead centre and they are heavy dont vibrate its amazing the loud sound behind and level with your ears its like being on the stage with 2 speakers
Nice.
It's always the "for what they are" part of this discussion that gets me. How do they sound compared to something like a decent set of bookshelf speakers? Is there any comparison there? I'd love to give these a shot, just to have a cool conversation piece, but am actually concerned about sound quality.
Lol that's what I'm thinking! I don't think I'd be going anywhere for a few hours. Just sitting next to my self built speakers and enjoying my favorite tunes as if it was the first time hearing them!
Just a heads up for anyone doing this. I just completed them, but did some more research on home made DML (Flat panels). The audio quality increases IMMENSELY if you coat the front and back of both panels with 2 layers of a 1:1 Wood Glue and Water mixture after sanding. I tested them before and after, and the coating adds a lot more low end, and overall makes the speakers sound significantly better.
I also found it important to hang the speaker wires coming off the panel away from the panel. You can bend the attachment point with pliers, its just important the wires don't touch the panel too much.
I'd also recommend tinkering with your eq settings. I found a round curve downwards shape worked best (Lets say 1 cm downward for the lowest end 60 to 150hz, 0.8 cm for 150 to 400 hz, 0.3 cm for 400 to 1 khz, 0.1 for 1 to 2.4 khz and 0.4 upwards for 2.4 to 15 khz)
Curious as to if putting a couple layers of paint on the panels would affect them the same as the glue mixture.
@@Jalahr77 No, but you can include paint. As long as you keep the 1:1 ratio of water and glue (maybe with some extra glue) you can add certain pigments. The only thing is, since you're not supposed to add the mixture to the edges, you may have to to make the whole thing look even. If you do do it, make sure you only do one light layer on the edges.
The big thing is hardness vs weight. The Foam panels work so well because of their light weight. By removing the melted surface and adding the glue mixture, it creates a hard but still lightweight surface. This has a whole bunch of complex interactions due to the reverb that leads to the amazing sound, but all you need to know is it sounds great.
@@saimnaeem9 I'm assuming the glue works well because you're adding a bit of rigidity to the panels? So, instead of a paint, maybe try a varnish, or even a couple of light coats of polyurethane. Would be interesting to see how different coatings would affect the sound.
This was just the comment I was looking for. Im building a pair right now and anything I can find on making these better is gold.
It would bind the surface fibers, but wood glue is somewhat elastic, maybe do it with a rigid epoxy, although that would add weight.
I am so glad you did this. I considered trying it out ever since I saw the video a few years ago. You’ve revamped my interest in going for it.
I ordered (and have received) the parts and found that our local hardware store stopped carrying the pink Stryofoam insulation panels. However, their new supplier offers black Styrofoam panels and they assured me that these were just as good (although I didn't tell them I was building speakers either LOL). I opted to try the 1" x 24" x 96 " panel cut into two equal halves and found that these speakers (although not studio quality) are perfect for sitting outside around our fire pit in the summer. They work really well, and the sound is above average...much better than those little outdoor bookshelf speakers one usually sees for sale at 4 times the price.
Awesome, Pacal!
Instantaly liked because you gave credit to techingredients. I love it when people put claims to the test. Subbed
Thank you!
You so damn right
Personally I’d be offsetting using the golden ratio. I base that on nothing
After cutting the boards to golden ratio dimensions, of course.
You moron! Everybody knows the Fibonacci sequence is the only way to go. Unbelievable!
And now you've ripped a hole to the core of the planet
As the bass drops to the same frequency as earth
Sudden doom with the boom 💥
Based on the harmonic wave patterns in the Tech Ingredients video, I believe that would cause even more harmonic resonance which will make the sound very lumpy (some frequencies really loud, others weirdly quiet)
Sorry 😐 know it was a joke but just in case you do try it and are unimpressed, I figured I would say maybe why.
If you want to go for a full sound, you just need to daisy chain a subwoofer with build in Crossover before each panel. That will step up the sound tremendously.
Yup can confirm. I had good results with that setup
I wouldn't do that as you are trying to connect a low wattage thing (the actuator) to a higher wattage thing (subwoofer) and the amp won't play nice at all with a mismatch like that. Everything in a series is going to receive about the same output of power, of course a little diminishing because of resistance from start to finish. If you did this you you are either under powering a sub woofer; which is pointless, or you are overpowering the actuator; which damages that.
Great video. I fell down this rabbit hole a few years ago just for fun. Bought about 8 different exciters and a bunch of materials, from pink insulation sheets, white styrofoam sheets, a ceiling tile, and a few items from a thrift shop, such as a large thin plate and a pane of glass. I even tested with a cardboard pizza box, which sounded better than expected. I also put one exciter on the back of a guitar and one on the back of a full sized upright bass. These two tests turned out better than everything else. No surprise, as they are acoustically tunes enclosures designed to produce food sound.
In every test, the main thing lacking was bass. Adding a subwoofer would be the key to creating a system that delivers good sound for all types of music.
I built a set of these with sheet balsa wood, roughly 90cm x 40cm with the Dayton Audio exciters placed 2/5ths in and 2/5th up from the the bottom corner ( mirrored pair ). The result is very good, good treble, good mids but with light bass. Good enough for a small room / study / bedroom for casual listening. The bass is light but responds better the farther out from the wall you suspend them.They have to be at least one foot from the wall for bass to be half decent. I ended up angling mine slightly towards the 'listening point' which gave better outward reflection of sound off the wall and out around the room. The overall sound is surprisingly good for a very inexpensive project. Definitely worth a try and I have made mine into artwork so that they appear to be paintings, I now have two 'Banksy's' as my speakers.
I'd love to see pictures of your setup. Sounds pretty cool!
That’s an awesome idea 💡
So, whack em together, add a sub and you're pretty much set?
Since bass in non directional why not use a separate unit shooting bass into the floor?
you tried 90cm x 40 cm of balsa, but which thickness ? I might give it a try some day.
I really appreciated this counter-point. Anyone can claim good sound on a youtube video. This is our version of peer review. Thank you for taking the time to do it.
Still… measurements or it didn’t happen. I’m pretty skeptical still.
That was great. I made some of these in the 70's with styrofoam ice coolers tops. They sounded better than any speaker we had for a car back in the day.
I called them transducers. Glued to the tops of the coolers.
I did have a 40 w booster equalizer to give it a loud clear sound. The equalizer made all the difference because I was able to adjust the sound of the music to the best performance.
This was in 1974 technology.
Enjoyed your show and it sure brought back some good memories.
This is technically a transducer.. but solely for audio
Hey, I remember some of that, back in the day a friend of mine had an old popular mechanics magazine where they explained it (transducers) and called it something like "the speakers of the future"
Now we have DSP's, microphones, and software to tune to the room dynamics. And TH-cam of course.
Love the smile that lights up when you test the speakers.
Well I'll be dipped! A guy just discovered your channel and low and behold... He's only wearing a VGG cap! Respect-O-meter 2000 fully charged!
I went ahead and did the right thing.
@@AmplifyDIY You need to adjust your language a bit... It's not "speakers", it's "vibrulators". And it's not "amplifier", it's "sound-make-it-happener". And so on and so forth...
@@ziiofswe It's all just digicals as far as a guy's concerned.
This sort of thing and a little 10" subwoofer and somebody could have a really clean surround sound in their home
These really bring the thunder. They're basically Fac-tree. A guy is pretty impressed with these soundalators. I will go ahead and do the right thing and build these right now..... no..... no I won't, I'll just like and subscribe so that's good.
Based on all the feedback and comments I've received on this project, I'm planning a follow-up video where I'll test the following:
1) Mount the exciters on posts so that the exciters move less, and compare to the hanging system shown in this video.
2) Compare these panels to a good set of bookshelf speakers.
3) Add a subwoofer.
4) Try painting or possibly fabric-wrapping the panels, and compare with non-painted.
What else do you want to see me try?
Different sizes of panels. Also, play pink noise through them and examine the response curve (there are many apps that use your phone to do this somewhat decently)
Can you hang it in your car and drive around, lol
Do a two-panel per channel setup by running high-pass/low-pass filters in addition to mounting the exciters for better clarity. Play around with separating the waveform coming from the front and the back of the speaker - speakers can cancel out their own sound by not separating the waveform between the front of the speaker and the back... so while it may sound good, you may get much better performance with some sort of box.
@AmplifyDIY Hello! I want to do some projects with those exciters, only problem I can´t find foamular in my country any other material like compressed styrofoam can work?
Increasing the mass of the exciters could help with the low end even more than bigger panels. :)
I'm impressed! This will be a good little project for my back patio.
Very well done video! Great topic, clear, easy to understand, no stupid music killing the voice audio! I am going to build a set for my workshop.
That guy from "tech ingredients" is extremely smart, his projects are crazy good and interesting. Love watching his videos!
Thanks for putting to the test this one, I'm really looking forward to build them myself. I have a good quality amplification and I'm very curious how those panels would perform, but I would definetly build those bigger panels too for the lower frequencies. Cheers!!
All you have to do to realize they are NOT the world's best speakers is look at the measured response curve in the original video. They have no bass response whatsoever. I like his channel too, and this was the first video of his I watched, but I think his claim in this case is pretty bogus.
I've been watching Tech Ingredients years, and full disclosure, am a fan.
That said, and knowing how technical the host is, and the incredibly broad his subject matter is, his "claim" of "best" is up to all the ingredients (meaning criteria) one puts into the word "best".
Personally I think its his dry, New England humor that lets him say "best" with a straight face, and he probably privately rolls his eyes when someone forms an opinion either way ("omg, he said that, so its gott'a be true" or "he's completely bogus") without ever doing their own research.
This channel, does its own research!
Nice content here. But was hoping to find more DIY Amplifier related things :D
@@gorak9000 What are you comparing them to, and in what way? Do you even know what actually goes into a typical off-the-shelf set of speakers?
.
I have no idea what you do or don't know. I'm just trying to find out what your specific basis for comparison is, because your wording really just makes it sounds like you're being contrarian for its own sake.
.
Irrelevant and contextless technical jargon...check
Statement that they lack a feature they weren't claimed to have in the first place, and which is a completely separate consideration anyway...check
Preemptively defensive, passive-aggressive, and completely irrelevant statement of support for the individual who made the disputed claim...check.
.
Just sayin...you might want to reconsider how organize your statements, going forward.
@@DoremiFasolatido1979 I'll admit that I haven't built these DML panels yet to actually compare them (but considering the cost, I will at some point), but I did build a set of these a couple years ago, and they are simply amazing (as they should be, with just the drivers alone being $1k for FL FR and C) speakerdesignworks.com/Finalists_5.html I linked to the page with the measured response curve, but you can navigate to the other pages to see the whole thing. That was my first foray into DIY speaker builds, and honestly my first "big" woodworking project. I think they came out really nice, even if years later, they still don't have veneer on them. Build pics here: goo.gl/photos/icxCcHKanjKtUNLMA They have really flat response down to 40Hz, and up to 20Khz. If anything needs improvement, it's my room response. I definitely have some room resonance issues at the low end as they're in a rectangular, fairly small room. Some measurement with REW and some bass traps are definitely needed! I get everything he mentions in the video - the "wide" soundstage, not being able to identify where the speakers are, but instead being able to point to where each instrument was on the stage in the initial recording, etc. You don't need a panel speaker to get that, just a well designed set of "monitors" (I'm not sure I'd call a ~50lb speaker a "monitor", but that's what the designer called them) can get you that. To my ears, every time I hear these panels, which admittedly is through a youtube video (and probably camera microphone, etc), always in a super echoey room (just important as your speakers is the room they're in, and the acoustic treatment of said room), and they sound thin and tinny, and muffled at the same time - like not only are they missing the low end, but also the high end as well.
The look on your face when the music started says it all. Never would have thought this worked.
I seen these years ago, but they never cease to amaze me. Good vidjéo sir!
The edge-on footage was fantastic. That was really cool. Already seen the tech ingredients video, you definitely added to it. He did mention that you do need to add a subwoofer as the sound level from the panels falls off around 120hz. Still really impressive tho.
Tech Ingredients is a remarkable channel and i love to see what they come up with
Some of the stuff they do is simply amazing!
it's a great channel but they're pretty off with speakers. If you want panel speakers that are actually good, you need to go electrostatic and they need to be BIG. I'm speaking 2ft x 6ft5 size.
@@dingdong2103 you clearly did not pay attention when watching their videos, or you would know they actually talk about the drawbacks of their speaker designs, how to compensate for them, and what is actually better.
@@HerbaMachina Yeah granted I stopped watching after they made outrageous claims that I knew couldn't be true.
@@dingdong2103 like what?
Actually mounted a pair to three quarter inch sheetrock when I was building my man cave and they sound superb.
How did you mount them? I’m thinking of building some and I’m curious how to go about it
@@timokirchler use the adhesive it comes with or use heavy duty epoxy. Just buy a couple and mount them to random shit. Its loads of fun. Then you can get serious with it if you want and do the foam board, sheet rock, etc. I highly suggest watching the Tech Ingredients video on using exciters/tactile transducers.
no, no they didnt. lol.
@@d3tach3d lmao
I didn't know sheetrock even came in 3/4 inch thick sheets...
This guy is straight to the point, professional and down to Earth. Instantly Subscribed!
Awesome! Thanks Kimball! Gonna have to try this!
Absolutely awesome thank you very much that clearly was the best video on sound exciters that I found on all of TH-cam including tech ingredients.
Radio Shack used to sell speaker's that were "Flat Panel." They were sold in the mid 70's to early 80's. The sound of theirs was awesome,and were no more than an inch thick!
Hahaha. In the early '70s, I used to obsess over the Radio Shack catalog, checking specs and imagining all the stuff I could buy and/or build. Same with Heath Kit.
I was cleaning an old shed a couple days ago and found 2 of those flat speakers.
Do they still work?
Yup, they sure did. they kinda looked like a lid from a Styrofoam cooler
I've seen versions of the concept, used as car speakers... You just strap them to the sun visors, no need to make holes in the doors. (Probably needed a sub of course... but still.)
I really liked how genuine and informative this video is. Amazing stuff man!! 👏
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is like a rabbit hole project! The panel could be carved or designed in a way to reproduced the bass part of the sound. While maintaining The same size. Very astounding sound!
I would have never thought to make such speakers. Very intriguing. Thank you for spreading this knowledge. 🌎🕊♾♥️
Absolutely incredible! Thanks for the video. Who knew that just a piece of 1 inch foam could do that!
I was really surprised as well!
Wow!! What an awesome video, you have really made my WEEK! Thank You very much, I have to try this now...
I've been wanting to install some speakers for watching films in our living room, but my mum has been adamant about not having speakers on the wall 'ruin' our living room. I might try building these and seeing if you could turn them into decoration at the same time...
I have a pair of Carlsbro flat panel speakers and use one of them for busking. The sound carries amazingly well outdoors even at long distances in noisy places, but they’re not any louder close-to. Also stops the issue of people close to the speaker talking very loud. Flat panel speakers have amazing properties! The sound is also really clean and well-defined even at a distance.
I've been thinking about building some of these for three years. Thanks for convincing me to give it a shot.
I'd love to hear what you think of yours when you are done!
You get best result with multible exciters. But the tweeters to corners and bass mid´range exciters to somewhere middle.
@@wege85 Do you have suggestions for which tweeter exciter and which bass mid range to use? Curious. I assume that also requires a crossover?
@@lancecluster Next time I use better ones but this is my setup: DAEX25X4-4, DAEX25CT-4, DAEX25W-8, two DAEX9CT-4 (these are way too weak but I still added them to the setup). No need crossover. I recommend to use orthodynamic or ribbon tweeter also.
@@wege85 Thank you for the added detail, much appreciated
The first band I was in, back in the late 60s, had polystyrene PA speakers. We were just a small garage band and they worked fine. We ran them from an old Bogen tube amp. They were very fragile.
i had forgotten about these - thnks for the review - i got 4 dual channel Haflers (8x75W) waitin on a build.
The bloopers are great!
Great stuff and nice presentation style, excellent camera work. Thank you.
Glad you liked it, and thanks for watching!
that was incredible!!!! very cool!!
I really hope painting or at least fabric wrapping works on these. Imagine in your living room, on both sides of the TV, 2 decorative paintings hanging on the wall, that are actually speakers! It's like "Stealth Speakers" if such a thing exists. (How to hide the wires? Ummm, we will cross that bridge when we get there...)
You could pass them trough the hanging wire to the ceiling, and hide them in there
The good fabrics for speakers are such because they're 'acoustically transparent'. If you fill the pores of the fabric with paint that would no longer be true.
I guess you could place them behind a deep-ish frame or canvas? It would also be useful for the wiring and mounting. But I'd keep the fabric really light so that it doesn't interfere much; probably dyed instead of painted too.
I was thinking of doing the same thing.
How to hide the wires? Just disguise them as wires for the lights for the “paintings”.
Get 2 flat panel lights, mount them to the wall, and put the “paintings” speakers over those lights. Mix the speaker wires in with the light wires.
Love the content, glad to have found you. Well shot, edited and imaginative videos. Great Job. BTW, love the Vice Grip Garage hat. :Thumbs-up:
A guy went ahead and did the right thing.
saw the Tech Ingredients as well, good you have proved their invention. will try to build these as well. the amplifier probably needs to be a very good one to reproduce all those mid-range frequencies? amazing video and best cheap gorgeous speakers!!
They are really good.. Thanks for sharing this and the effort you put to get it and show us here 👍
Thanks for the feedback, Pramod!
I used to have a pair of Wharfedale PPS-1 flat panel speakers back in the day. Think they were about £180 back in the day, and I've seen them going for as little as £90 today if you can find them. On the plus side, they also come with a matched sub woofer to fill in the missing bottom end.
Imagine you make a home theater system with five of these
I mean, that's excactly what I had in my mind...
I'm going to make some as rear channels for my surround set up. A whole array of these with one subwoofer would be sick
@@brandonxvi707 Sounds like a bigger panel would do the trick for more bass.
You can make 5 for less then one set of good tower speakers. Might Aswell put a sub in the seats for a home theatre.
I'll try that soon :)
Its definitely interesting to hear these for the first time. A very pleasant square wall of sound coming at you.
Speakers arriving today. Ordered 3 pairs of exciters from parts express and have shared the video with several friends and family. Thanks for the video.
Awesome! I'd love to hear what you think of them once you've heard them in person. Good luck!
Just made them. 10/10. Thank you for the review and follow up. I really like them.
Glad you like them, Damon!
I definitely need to test a set of these. What an interesting concept
30 years ago i had a set of blaupunkt titanium flat disc speakers in my car. same idea a flat disc and an exciter and it sounded incredible. smaller harder discs should get the high treble sounding good.
The sound extremely well in the high notes.
If you listen to Jazz and classic, they are insane.
Violins, Cellos and Brass instruments sound like they are right next to you.
You definitely NEED to have a sub woofer for the low frequencies. nothing big, i use a 50€ sub woofer and it does the trick.
I compared them to 2000€ home studio setups and the styrofoam speakers are noticably better for this kind of music. All the sounds are much clearer and easier to distinguish.
The 2000€ home studio setuop shines in its versatility and adaptability. it works for all genres, all versions and has a lot of settings that work very well.
I still have the Magnaplanar speakers I bought in 1977, and they are still incredible. The separation between instruments is superb. And you can crank them up to insanely loud without distortion. But I might build a set of these for my garage.
Yes, the older Maggies are assuming that you have the room and amp for them. (Yes I have owned some)
I have some MMGWs and they were only ever happy on my big HK, but they don't have the bottom end I need now I have a bigger space than my apartment.
Thought about upgrading to full size, but I have an idea....
Maggies are terrific, but these are not Maggies. They have their own limitations. But still really good, and terrific when used in numbers with DSP.
Love your vice grip garage hat!! I can appreciate another fan of a great channel
Bring the Thunder!
I bought a pair of Goodmans Plainex speakers in the 70's and still have and use today. They are pretty much exactly what you have got there.
I built those speakers as well and I put one in the center and one at the 2fifths 5fifths and one rounded corners one without. I was able to paint them black. like Tech Ingredients did. They sound amazing. People could hear them from a block away when I played them outside.
You need to keep your mic to the front of the speakers. You've got dipoles for the most part so in between will be plenty of cancellation. Your distance from the front wall will have a strong effect in that regard. Play around with placement (think Magnepans, if you've ever had any experience with those speakers). I need to try this out for myself!
I'm working on a pair of these. I'm waiting for the exciters to come so I'm preparing the foam. I'll tell you, I had a heck of a time getting a good cut, with a razor knife, when rounding the corners. so I cut the panels down with my table saw and started over. This time I used my jig saw. Worked much better. Then I rounded over the edges on the front with a router and a rounding over bit with a bearing. Looks almost factory made now.
Your references and detail are fantastic. Enjoyed the video.
Thanks, Pugnugger! Did you happen to see my follow-up? LOTS more testing etc... th-cam.com/video/XC814uQjlaE/w-d-xo.html
Good video, I saw the original video a while back and did 4 of these in my office and the sound quality is out of this world. I did full 4ftx8ft sections instead of the smaller ones on 2 of the walls, then I did 2 of the smaller 2ftx4ft ones. The larger panels for sure have more low-end compared to the smaller panel. I bought some black ink and painted the surfaces black with the ink and did some white ink making the foam boards look like playing cards. I found when I tried to spray paint them, the sound drastically changed and didn't sound as good. The ink didn't affect the sound as much.
I would guess that when paint hardens, it made the boards less flexible-so either much more power was needed, or certain frequencies weren't reproduced, or both.
You can buy dye in spray cans made by SEM. It would probably work perfectly as it's not a paint.
How many sound exciters on the 4*8 panel?
Love to see or have one that has a little artistic finish. That surface is so enticing to work on.
I’m moving my old “home/pro”) recording studio into a new house, and the control room isn’t huge. These seemed like a great thing to try. Can’t wait. I imagine a nice parametric EQ unit will be in order, but I have that, and I expected to need it in any case, so I’m excited to try this!
Good presentation and good video. After watching I almost feel like I do it myself.
My uncle was an inventor, and designed many speakers. Many of which were flat panel HiFi designs. However, he built magnet coil diaphragms, much like a traditional cone speaker- except custom built of course, with a flat Kevlar or carbon fiber as the surface material.
What’s interesting about this is, his speakers have a very similar effect of “lacking body, too much high range” when playing digital material... despite having a completely different design. The only similarity is the nature of the speaker having a very large, flat, fast response surface area. My uncle would always frown heavily on digital mediums for audiophile playback, saying the signal was very “dirty” and didn’t carry any detail when compared to an analog recording medium.
Now, I’m speaking as a professional sound engineer, and I work with digital equipment every day. I’ve researched in depth the nyquist theorem, and all of the reasons digital *should* be better than analog. But when you play an original record from the pre-digital era and compare it to a digital mastering on flat panels, it’s a night and day difference. High quality digital recordings, mastered well, with a good DAC also makes a difference. The biggest difference has been listening to a recording I made of a classical concert, where I recorded simultaneously to 15IPS reel to reel tape, AND to digital. The difference between the two on the flat panels is absolutely ridiculous.
I’d be really curious to hear if that difference is also present on this design. Maybe I should build a pair, and carry the torch for my uncle. 😂
Interesting!
So what exactly is the difference you are talking about?
4:15 alternatively flip the drill bit around , heat the end with a propane torch ,and burn the holes in.
Wouldn't drilling in reverse do the same thing?
Love the Vice Grip Garage Hat! Nice!
A guy went ahead and did the right thing. :)
Thank you. I am tempted to make one.
You should!
Excellent presentation and testing. I'm curious how these would sound if the speakers were put in a frame to separate the compression/rarefaction of the sound waves....
Thank for the video... and is that a Vice Grip Garage hat I see?! Subscribed.
Well I'll be dipped!!
Thats pretty cool, I just picked up a small exciter for another audio project. Amazing for such a small piece of equipment.
Lilac skies is the jam. Thanks for showing me some new music.
I need to try this, for how simple they are why not build some!
As soon as I clicked on this channel the first thing that crossed my mind was about fig newtons.
I don't know why...
Love to see the followup video you proposed with the bigger panel for more base. :)
Just saw this on TT. I’m gonna make two of these for my office computer speakers thank you for the tutorial on how to make these looks amazing.
You're very welcome!
You are correct. You need to add the other 2 panels if you want to hear what he was calling "best." He explains how the 4 different types and mountings together yield a flat response across the spectrum at 28:36 on their video. Glad you didn't just dismiss exciters in general however. They are very versatile and allow you to do things like simply add a larger model to the under side of a deck for music outside without a visible speaker.
I've been thinking about making a pair of these - happy to hear they made it past your initial skepticism! Great video!
3 things that come to my audio-engineer mind:
* I think the 24 x 48 panels would both increase the frequency response, and cut down on what may be contributing to the "missing" tonality.
* Also, having both speakers use the 2/5th's arrangement may improve the sonic quality of the speakers. The purpose of the 2/5th placement was to mitigate resonance nodes. Giving the same treatment to both speakers would also have made them both equivalent sound-wise (instead of having a different frequency response between L/R)
* Appreciate the demo for the listeners using the Lav mic. One thing: the single microphone placed centered between the two speakers is tricky, particularly when near phanom center of the pair. The sound is very sensitive to "phasing" from slight left/right movement in this zone - the same sound arriving at slightly different times based on distance (eg. fractions of a millisecond). Consequently, there will be dynamic "comb filtering" in the Lav mic audio. Maybe a more authentic recording for us via the Lav would have been to disengage one of the speakers and then use the Lav mic to capture the mono output straight on from the remaining panel.
Thanks!
Hey Zach - thank you for your thoughts and ideas! According to Tech Ingredients, the larger 24x48 panels provide more low end, but sacrifice the highs. They recommend a blend of both sizes, as well as mixing in some panels made of acoustic ceiling tile.
I did a follow-up video a while ago that you may be interested: I stuck with the same square panel, but played with different treatments: sanded vs non, rounded corners vs sharp, painted, covered in a fabric, dual exciters vs single, with and without a subwoofer, all the above compared to a decent set of bookshelf speakers, etc. I also used a binaural mic to record all the tests. There are some parts of the video that overpower the mics and wind up clipping (especially with the sub) but I think someone with a sensitive ear will be surprised by just how much tiny changes affect the sound: th-cam.com/video/XC814uQjlaE/w-d-xo.html
I would have a pair of 24x24 on each side, hung in vertical pairs, drivers in parallel (obvs!), & lock all the drivers down to stands of some sort. wondering what sort of finish you could apply to the foam, for domestic integration purposes. also, want to hear more demos where the sound source is a voice recording. that's the real acid test of the realism of speakers.
I built a pair for my shop when the tech ingredients vid posted. I have two large traditional and a big subwoofer and it's much better than my Klipsch set up in the house. My shop system gets blasted very loud for hours each day. They are really durable as well. Good video.
Very cool!
I had to buy an 8ft sheet so used most of it to build two pairs of different sizes panels. Did all the sanding and painting and gave them away as a Christmas present along with a cheap class d amp that had a seperate sub out put. It needed it couple months later picked up a very cheap junk shop passive sub. Just picked out the one that felt heaviest to get and idea of cabinet and driver quality. Now it works very well for peanuts money.
I have seen this speaker design several times on YT and it is really fascinating. One guy did a 2 stage speaker design with one rectangle being made of the foam board and another out of balsa wood ... which might act to give the sound that mid-range "heart". I am really thinking of doing this ... though my music blasting days are pretty far behind me for the most part.
Going to have to try this (especially for "garage" use!)... a few tips I noted, others probably have already volunteered also... #1 - For the mounting support holes, use a nail (bolt, or even the cotter pins themselves) in a pair of vice grips, heat up with a torch, and plunge them into the foam (rather than trying to drill it)... they'll easily melt their way in to make nice holes (if you want larger holes, use whatever is appropriately large enough).
Also, classic error, don't make the mounting holes "straight in"... angle each mounting hole a bit from "outside to inside" (so they start closer to the edge, and angle inwards inside the foam so their tips are closer together than the loops on the outside).... then, after epoxying in place, tie/attach a string, wire, etc (something fine and unnoticeable, doesn't have to be super strong, light fishing line for instance) between the loops, binding them together. Now, because of the angles, neither pin can come out fully, if one loses it's grip, and starts trying to slide out of it's hole, the string between them will pull it towards the other pin, but since the holes are angled outwards, they can't go anywhere (in fact, no need to epoxy if the foam was strong enough, just leverage would hold them in, but I'd use the epoxy given this is foam and not really strong). That's just a backup method to ensure no pull-out. (Same way baseboard (or other lengths of materials) nails should be installed at alternating angles, so if the board tries to warp from the wall, the counter-angled nails keep it from budging).
Finally, I don't know how it would affect the sound, but there is a "bedcoating" spray from rustoleum (available in rattle can at wally world and elsewhere I'm sure, rumors are the roll-on variety has a different consistency, don't use that). I'd actually spray that on the back of these before mounting the transducers. It dries to an EXTREMELY tough surface (it's not rubbery, which I'd originally hoped for in my application, but live and learn)... anyhow, that would probably greatly strengthen the backside of the panel, and probably have little to no affect on the sound reproduction (worth an experiment anyhow)...
If I do this, I'll follow some of these tips myself and maybe put something together to share, I'm not good at that though, I always "do" projects and never really do good documenting them. Thanks for this, it was fun!
Awesome write up! I actually have a can of that bed liner spray from a different project. However, based on the testing I did in the follow-up video to this one, I'm pretty sure spraying the back of the panel will have a pretty large effect on the performance: th-cam.com/video/XC814uQjlaE/w-d-xo.html
I'd love to hear about it if you do put something together. Good luck!
This is one of the most awesome videos I've seen lately. Very interesting & inspiring. Liked and subbed.
Wow, thanks!
I wondered about what these would actually sound like. Thank you, sir.
Liked & subbed!
Awesome, thank you!
After watching your video couple weeks ago I pulled the trigger and purchased my pink panels that have already been modified by rounding the corners taking the sharp edges off sanding front back sides I've received my 40 watt exciters from parts Express just waiting on my speaker wire and my Bluetooth amp and I can't wait to give it a go I also bought some gorilla glue or some people say sometimes the 3M tape let's go and they can fall off sometime so I don't want to take a chance and I've read on quite a few forms where people say if you use a one-to-one solution of water and wood glue and put two coats on the back where the Exciter goes and one coat on the front along with when the Exciter breaks in it makes a noticeable to huge difference in the sound so I'm definitely going to try that 👍🤗
Awesome! I'd love to hear if you think the glue solution makes a difference. Good luck!
What?!... No cold snacks while you're working?! At least you know what you're doing with the digicals.
Love the VGG subtle comment
@Billy McCord - The problem with a lot of us long time fanaticals is that Derek's unique etiquette is now so second nature, that we now speak it in our every day lives without even knowing we're doing it. It's fine.
I watched the tech ingredients video.
Curious if there are small versions of those. I'm guessing they'd need thinner foam board.
Great to see someone else build these and react to the sound. 👍
Great video, thanks for including the proper placement measurements. I like the idea of building these for my garage shop. Inexpensive, with better than good sound. I was wondering, would it be possible to buy larger panels of this stuff, or could you glue two or three panels together for longer vertical panels? I don't really like the idea of using ceiling tile, because that stuff is so heavy and would be harder to hang.
Oh yeah, one other thing. Why not paint the speakers with your logo on them, I think that would look really cool.
My local Home Depot sells this in 4 foot by 8 foot sheets... Check your local hardware store. I'll bet you can find it. Good luck!
In December a local department store had a couple small drivers stuck to the inside of their main display windows, and the sound from just two drivers filled the whole space in front of the store with incredible, non-directional seasonal music. So maybe try a pair on some old glass windows?
Creation of this speaker, and the look on his face proves it's Awesome
Really great video and it's so cool to see someone else rocking the VGG hat!
A guy went ahead and did the right thing. :)
I find they work better with larger rectangular panels. The low end is dependent on the maximum dimension of the panel, so you can reach lower with longer pieces.
Another great product is hanging ceiling panels for lows
@@MinecraftManSteav Many people use panel speakers like that for surround of Atmos effect speakers. With wide soundstage should be perfect for that.
@@MinecraftManSteav that's what I used.
I made mine 2ft x 4ft and they sound Excellent. 2 Exciters per Panel and my regular home Amp at 100 watts per channel. The only way to go !
Hello Scott- thanks for the post. What amplifier and music source did you use?
I just found your channel through this video. The YT algorithm has actually done something good. Instantly liked and subscribed. I refuse to hit that bell icon though. I'd love to do it to help, but I loathe entirely all notifications... Great content! About to watch your car detailing video!
Wow, thanks!
That was a lovely introduction.
This just raised so many questions for me. I miss having a garage/shop too.
Did the sound vary between the two panels as expected.
Do the strings vibrate, and if so, how much?
What if you suspended it by the exciter instead of the panel?
What if you suspend it horizontally from the ceiling?
If hung horizontally, will something sprinkled on the back (top) show the dead spots?
What if the board was round?
How much does size matter? 😉
What other materials could be used? (after this I found video using veneered plywood, and another using a type of glass or plexiglass)
What properties make for a good sound?
What if two exciters are placed on one panel?
Yeah I was wondering about doubling them up as well. Or even 4 with a center weight in the board.
I have a suggestion: what if, what happens, if you fix the driver on the wall, so the only vibrating part is the panel? At the very first seconds when you started the test, you look really amazed!
I'd be interested to see what difference that makes. Nice idea.
Yeah, or simply make a stand out of 4x4 post or something. Even 2x4s are probably sturdy enough.
I’ve had a lot of people ask about this. I think a new video based on all the feedback is in order!
I was thinking the same thing. On one hand these are almost ideally mechanically decoupled from the structure of the room, which is what you want for a pair of speakers. On the other hand I wonder if affixing the drivers to an inert mass would improve the power output and bass response.
Was thinking same thing! Plus the rebound effect off the wall may effect sound depth
man this is cool! And so simple that even I will try it!
Great video, man!
Glad you liked it, DJ!
If you do decide to build the 24x48 sheets of Bamboo as the bamboo can capture different audio frequencies and you’ll be amazed by combining the two I’ve Liked & Subscribed
The deeper notes need more air being moved. These don’t move air much but just vibrate. These plus a sub would be solid
Incredible!!
I know this isn't audiophile level design, but I thought I'd add some thoughts. That very large amount of free swinging and inertia complications, especially in placed close to the wall behind it causes clarity and phase problems. With its' surface area and problems I mentioned, maybe that can be worked to your favor with near room corner placement, with a diagonal orientation. This can enhance some frequencies, plus the added wall reflected sound will give you a wider/deeper/more complex soundfield, sort of like old Bose direct/reflecting speakers for a bit more 'concert hall' effect.
Good idea! If it's missing depth or meat as he says it could be like mid range frequencies or resonance being off either too little, in which case I was thinking that could be mimicked by adding more surface area larger plates, and resonance could be mimicked on a flat plane with increased perimeter, like a string being either lengthened or loosened makes a deeper tone, but each method has a different depth or meat 😂..
maybe a kites and darts pattern like veratasium used in his penrose tile video or those fractal antennae designs they use in cell phones. 3d cut one add a speaker and try it experimenting is the only way to know. I'm a science girl, But I have a woman's intuition that because Fibonacci sequence is found in musical notes, that kites and darts or sunflower holes or some other fractal containing phi would be an ideal design constraint if you wish to keep a flat surface. The easiest way to check nodes and anti nodes is by laying it level and sprinkling salt while scanning through frequency ranges. ❤
Lol I wanna try this now!!
@@wssometimesavowel3639 That definitely would be a great way to see the various frequency locations.
I can report that these sound way more roomy and bassy when mounted up in the corner at an 45° angle (center of the speaker is pointing into the corner)
i recommend getting an amp with an equalizer as the mids are kinda weak.
@@wssometimesavowel3639 That's interesting - the stereo distributed-mode + subwoofer might be described as 2.1 - are you heading towards 5.1?
- now you mention 'soundfield', might there be any mileage in some form of 'reverse-soundfield microphone' -style speaker (employing drivers/exciters instead of mics?)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundfield_microphone