.357 Magnum Snubby- .357 Mag or .38 SPL+P Ammo? The DEFINITIVE Answer
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ค. 2019
- Testing everything one can think of when it comes to the difference in a .357 Magnum snub nose revolver when it comes to using .38 Special+P or using .357 Magnum ammo.
I chose Remington Golden Saber ammunition in both cartridges as the .38 Special+P version is pretty on par with most .38 Special+P ammo, while the .357 Magnum version is a bit lighter in recoil and power than most magnum ammo, which is important for good "shootability" in such a small handgun.
For some reason, YT degraded my video quality by half, dunno why that is.
Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.paypal.me/gunsamrevolver
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I just realized that I failed to visually catch one of the chronograph readings of the .38 Special+P in the 2" barrel of 822 FPS. This would bring the average velocity and energy down from 882/216 to 852/202. Sorry for not catching that. Another point to be made, is that the .357 Mag and .38 SPL Golden Saber is NOT bonded ammo, however there are bonded variants in .357 Sig, .45 ACP, 9mm+P and .40 S&W. Also, I suspect that the size of my video has caused significant quality loss on the upload. My original is very clear, this online version is grainy so have patience with it :)
Certainly looked clear enough to me Sam.
@@WhoWouldWantThisName Thank you. I guess it's one of those things where you don't know what you have until it is gone lol. I have the original on my PC and it's super crisp, but the one online has a lot of fuzzy artifacts that are not in the original.
I feel like you should also add in that 8596 reading as well... give the 38 the credit it's due.
Unless it is marked on the box like 9mm.
Hope you are having a good day.. I am considering a lcr in .357 or .38 special, wanted to round out my .357 carry options. Usually carry a sp101 or a gp100, and have daily for years. Do you think in the lcr the .357 is worth it over the .38?
Well done Sam. You demonstrated the benefits and drawbacks of both types in a snubby giving us practical info for us to choose.
Thank you and thanks for watching!
I watched this video just out of my curiosity, but with either round your attacker would no doubt be dead. I think we focus too much on this round vs this round when in reality, most handgun ammo will be more than effective. 🤷♂️
Use 25 acp. It's a monster
Or a 22 lr......it's devastating!
I agree, we tend to obsess about power. In essence a hand gun is a long distance drill press. If you put holes in the right place you will be fine. Quick and accurate follow up shots and blast are more important than power IMO as long as you get adequate penetration and use a bullet design that is disruptive.
@@mkshffr4936 Power = Penetration, a weak round will not penetrate deeply. A ball round with the same resistance will go further and deeper with more powder behind it. A more powerful round will also have a better chance to break through bone and a heavier bullet will have less of a chance of being deflected off course. E=MC2. Most people assume that their ability to shoot a stationary paper target will translate into a perfect shot when an attacker will probably be moving, may have a weapon, may have friends, may surprise you, may be to close to aim properly, may have cover, ect... That being said a miss with a 308 isnt as good as a hit with a 22lr. Use the most powerful round you can use accurately. If that's a 44 mag then use it, if its a 32 acp then use it. The idea that power doesn't factor into the ability to stop an attacker quickly and that you are going to always be able to hit a fist size target under duress is ludicrous. There are cases where people have been shot multiple time with 9mm and lived so follow up shots isnt 100% of the answer. a pistol is a poor self defense weapon to begin with why handicap yourself further. A hit in the shoulder with a 44 will cause more damage and have a greater chance of disabling the arm than a 38. Yes shot placement matters but hitting your target where you didnt aim matters also. To add to that follow up shots do matter since people shot at least twice greatly increases stopping them. Needing to find a happy balance is important. To some that might be a 38 but a 38 is a sub-par round. Id rather have a revolver in 9mm.
@cloverleafsippa713 you didn't catch my sarcasm. But .22lr is widely used by Israeli forces every day and that says something about this cartridge. Greetings from Texas.
Here is my Combat Revolver CCW Action Shooting Highlight w/ various revolvers th-cam.com/video/ty0lhQ5hVm0/w-d-xo.html and here is link to my new Combatives & Street Jiu-jitsu DVD bjjfanatics.com/products/combatives-and-street-jiu-jitsu-by-dan-the-wolf-man-theodore
Great video, Sam. Thanks for taking the time and energy and cost of doing these very informative tests.
Thank you and thanks for watching. Lately I have been putting in whatever ad revenue come in, into the costs and I even get donations from time to time. It's worth it because it's always good information to find out.
I am more accurate with my Ruger sp 101 with a 3'' barrel than any of my other hand guns that I have. For some reason it just fits my hand better.I prefer low or medium 357 powered ammo so I can manage it better. The golden saber is one of the rounds that I use. Thanks for a well-done video. Lots of good info.
Thanks! I have owned a 3" SP101 but only fired a few rounds through it. It's an interesting story lol, but the 2.25" SP101 I had got lots of use.
Lance Kelly, I'm carrying my Ruger LCRx 3" today loaded with 38 sp +P. I'm a huge fan of 3" revolvers and it seems to me that accuracy comes easily with them. Maybe it's the sight radius. I'm not sure.
Another vote for the 3" barrel. In my case, Colt King Cobra. The little extra weight makes a big difference in terms of controllability and follow-up. My preference is 125 grain flat point .357 magnum load (mainly because +p that is not hollow point is hard to find, and you possess carry hollow point outside your house where I am).
Same here I have the sp101 with the 3" barrel, it's ridiculously accurate. One of my favorite revolvers hands down.
I have a smith and Wesson 686 3 inch barrel. Love it.
Great video, Sam. Thanks for sharing. I especially appreciate your summary at the end of the video.
Thanks!
I really like your testing style, informative and realistic. I carry a j-frame model 649 .357 magnum as a tertiary gun.
357 wins every time... BUT, for indoor defensive use, I think there's an advantage to sub-sonic rounds... One of my long-term objectives for my channel is to demonstrate different noise levels.
GeographyCzar That’s a great idea dude. I hope you have an opportunity to conduct that testing, & I hope I FIND IT on TH-cam or some other more freedom loving video site. Full30?
I think any 2 inch .38/.357 fired inside is going to leave a person deaf for a long time. Even a .22 handgun is just aweful inside.
Good idea.
@@JohnDoeSmith08 Several years ago, around '94 or '95, I lived in an old farm house, with my wife and young kids. A wild cat started coming into my yard and my wife told me I needed to "take care of it" when I seen it. It was hissing and screeching at her and the kids when she took them outside to play. She was afraid it might hurt one of them. I was in the kitchen one day when I seen it-right outside the kitchen window. I had my old Smith model 10-38 special , 4 inch barrel on my side. It was loaded with Federal 125 gr semi jacketed HP's Nickel played casings. I was afraid if I went outside it would run away. So, I unholstered my 38 and took aim through the open window above the sink. The cat was probably 10 feet away from me. I fired single action, hitting him right in the left shoulder. He dropped instantly and was dead. 2 pictures above me on the wall feel from the blast. It was loud but not deafining. I did feel the concussion. My wife came running from the bedroom to see what had happened. I said "I got him!". She didn't seem real happy I had fired from inside, through our screen window. But was glad I had neutralized the threat . The bullet went through it's left shoulder and was just under the skin buy the right shoulder. I dug the slug out before I burried it. It mushroomed damn near perfect and stayed together. It worked very well, but I was some what surprised it didn't go all the way through. After this, I do prefer 158 gr 38 plus P. I think it will have better penetration. Anyway, that is my experience firing a 38 plus P inside my house. The noise really wasn't that bad. The concussion is what I noticed more, and really wasn't expecting that .
@@JohnDoeSmith08 That is true. 38/9mm/ even 22 in handgun is also loud. But 357 is a LOT louder. I have very sensitive ear issues, and I would never fire one indoors. Unless I die if I don't. The muzzle blast will leave you blind for several seconds (not good in home invasion situation you would agree) and deaf for maybe a day or more.
Good stuff Sam. A really good test. Thanks.
Thank you.
Great presentation as always. Good information to have. I went ahead and purchased a S & W Victory Revolver in .38 special with a 4 inch barrel. Thanks to you Sam as well as thank you for all you do.
Thanks. This is my old camera stuff lol. Gritty looking but was fun to make.
You're an awesome guy, Sam! Like I said before, it's great to see you getting more subs; you deserve them! You have a very unique way of doing things! May the force be with you, brother!
Thank you so much for doing these tests with a 605. I just bought one and a love it. Not bad for $375. You are giving me all the information I've been looking for
In a revolver those are my favorite calibers. I did take your advise on the new grips to take my 605. Glad I changed. They help a lot. Thanks for the great videos.
Just purchased a Taurus 605 .357 and carry the Remington HTP 125 grain as my personal ammo choice!!! I feel very comfortable in stopping a threat very fast if needed! Great video!! I will keep watching yours!!!
Great Video thank you.
Have the 4” EAA .357. You answered many of my questions
well organized and effective demonstration
I've really been enjoying your videos. I like your take on the Jug or not box. Good stuff man! You got a new subscriber.
Thank you. My Jug-or-Not is sort of a middle ground between ballistics gel which has specific calibrations and size, and a real human analog with real ribs and all of that. I get a little bit of analog representation with the bologna/wood, but also somewhat specific penetration distances in water.
Excellent job ; well done ! These are practical distances , and it's the same ammunition that most people would probably be carrying . I think the average shooter will place his rounds very similarly , if not exactly , given the same time you used during S/A & D/A Performance Testing . You conducted a test with materials that people have used all their lives to test their ammo with . It was smart & pragmatic . I really enjoyed the way you obtained real-life results . Again , ......... Excellent job & THANK YOU !
Thank you and thanks for watching!
Well done analysis to assist us in knowledgeable selections. In smaller framed revolvers, not only shootablity but attrition of issues like blasting out of timing to frame stretching and cracking should be considered. Hits and good follow up shots with moderate loads trumps misses and periperial hits with the hottest loads. In these times of shortages, we have to use what we have or can get.
I’m starting to get more into wheel guns from watching your channel. Thanks for providing some insight regarding the various ballistics.
Thanks for watching. I remember you commenting a lot on the past but haven't seen you in a year or so.
Thanks for this detailed review. If you want to use affordable full-power .357 magnum ammunition, I recommend Remington-UMC 125 gr. jacketed soft point (JSP). I clocked these at over 1,600 fps in my old GP-100 with a 6" barrel. I also shot these at an indoor range thru my GP-100 4.2" barrel. Bystanders noticed both the loud report and a feeeling of concussion off the concrete range walls. The muzzle flash is also impressive.
I tested the 125 gr SJHP Rem HTP. I hear it's the same ammo but with nickel plated brass. It's good stuff. 1,409 FPS in my 4" barrel and 1,258 FPS in my 2" barrel. I tested it in both guns and the penetration was a little low (jug 2) but in both guns got over .500" expansion.
Nice video. Why are there still some people that insist if you fire .357 mag from a 2” barrel you lose so much you might as well use 38 special +p? Chronographs clearly show us even in a 2” .357 magnum is still clearly very far ahead of 38 special +p in performance. However if 38 special +p is the most recoil you can shoot accurately from a snubby than that’s what you should probably use. To be fair 38 special +p is my daily carry round because my 2” revolver only weighs 15 ounces.
That does it. I'm packin' 158 gr Federal Hydra Shock 357 in my snubby.
Please support the small firearms channels! Link in video description! Buy the man a cup of coffee! Let's keep these channels alive! Thanks for all your contributions Sam!
Thank you. For some reason the video quality is really bad compared to the original one on my PC. I wonder what YT did to it, it's weird.
Had to vent to someone lol
@@GunSam I did not see a video quality issue. Thought everything was dandy! And very well done sir.
@@JohnDoe-vq8bg That's good and thank you. The original though is quite crisp, but this one especially when shade hits it, I see lots of video issues. I think it may be that time of year that I have to move all of my stuff. Typically in summer I have to shift things so that the camera is in the north and i'm in the south as this gives perfect lighting. Right now the camera is in the west getting me in the east and you see the shadowing issues.
@@GunSam I hope folks know how much work it is to film and shoot. Then there's fuel, ammo and many other things that cost you. It would be another great loss if this channel faded away... Comments, rating and subscribing are great support. But you really deserve a cup of coffee and some pie! Best regards sir!
Great video, good info and entertaining as always. Thanks Gun Sam!
Thanks!
I love to carry a corbon dpx 38 special round in the model 60 .357 Smithy, as lighter recoil than the heavier 357mag but still a hell of a flower and plenty penetration. As always, great stuff brother!
Thanks, you're right not to carry this stuff as later on like a year later I had bullet creep with this .357 ammo. Currently, the only two good .357 snub loads I've found is Gold Dot short barrel and American Gunner.
I always love your videos. 😎👍
great video, as always, thank you. i only shoot 357 and 38+p out of a ruger blackhawk, which is certainly not a ccw. my rule of thumb is to stay comfortable, i.e. steel 38 snubbies get fmj, airweights get wadcutters. as for effectiveness, i shoot with what im likely to hit my target, misses dont count. with heavy handgun ammo, misses offer no concussive shock wave, no shrapnel from a proximity fuse.
I certainly agree with the wadcutter suggestion
Very informative. Nice job
Thank you!
Good choice using the snubbie, a realistic carry revolver.
Thanks for shooting double action. Shows you're a revolver guy.
BTW, I shoot 180gr hard-cast bear loads in by Smith Model 60 2-1/8" barrel.
Hell yeah! It's not fun to shoot, but even less fun on the other end.
sam that was a very thorough 38/357 mag test with both revolvers, but im sure that 605 was a pain in the web but you got the results with both cartridges and when i do my 2 revolver test the snubby always makes owning a 4" revolver a pleasure in the end..like driving a shaky 4 cylinder engine at 90 mph vs a 427 cid v-8 at the same speed.. the 4 cylinder just cant match it, same with the heavier revolver...it just tames thoses heavy hi-velocity hitters much better but just like the 2 car comparison both will get you to the hospital just the same, just like the 2 revolvers will save your life in a pinch. great video sam i started polishing my 686-6 and finished when your video ended. lol.
Thank you. With the 686 you almost can't tell when you fire light .38's in it. Something about the size of the trigger too like there is more leverage than the small revolvers, and in a sense yes this is true because that leaf spring in the 686 is like pulling back a really smooth bow and the let off is smooth. The coil springs in the small revolvers is nothing like that.
The Golden Saber .357 ammo really isn't that bad at all as the Taurus is 24 oz, but i'd say the recoil is the same as an average low end .38+P through my airweight 342PD. The only ammo so far in the Taurus that really causes pain is the Federal 158 gr Hydrashok magnums, other full house loads like the Speer 125 gr and Rem HTP 125 gr were bad, but the 158 Hydrashok was the worst.
I bought a Colt King Carry 357 snubnose, so your video definitely helped. After much practice, I now load my revolver with the first round being a Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain 357 mag, and the remaining rounds with Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain 38+P. I do this because I am most accurate with my first shot, and even more so if I have time to fire in single action. I use the 38+P as follow-up rounds to mitigate recoil and increase double-action accuracy in what I assume will be a very stressful close range self-defense scenario. I decided on the Hornady ammo because they use a plug that increases initial penetration and expansion...or at least that's what the ballistic tests confirm. Truth be told though? I am sure ANY 38 standard pressure round will do the job if used at less than 5-7 yards, if not further. To each their own, I guess.
God bless America 🇺🇸. Commenting for the algorithm
I am Brazilian and I have this doubt between model 85s (38spl) and Model 605 (357), which are basically the same weapon. but in Brazil, only gun-caliber ammunition can be purchased, and it is necessary to choose between the low recoil of the 38 x 357 energy. Our ammunition is limited by the CBC monopoly and costs around $ 1-1.5, and training is limited. Is it worth it in this case to go from 357 or 38? Congratulations on the excellent channel!
Considering you have limited range time, you might be better off with .357 Magnum. However it depends on whether you can handle a lot of recoil because .38 Special is fun to shoot and get good with it, but .357 Magnum is difficult to shoot well in a small revolver.
Thanks Sam. I'd like to try Golden Saber ammo but have not seen it on the shelves lately. HTP seems more common here.
I have heard rumors that it was discontinued but have not researched into that. Probably just rumors, however the stock levels where I buy it is listed online and they keep getting a lot of it in, so this suggests not. Thanks for watching!
@@GunSam Thanks Sam. I'll check some of my online resources.
I'm a little late with a reply , but I have to totally agree with you regarding the ammo availability . The Golden Sabers are becoming more difficult to find while the HTPs' seem to be the flavor of most Gun Shops & Department Stores . I'm down here in Miami , Fl. , and self-defense rounds are very-very big sellers . Just wondering if it's a problem , nationally ?
I still prefer a 38 plus p load for day to day carry. Good video though. Those Golden Sabre’s seem to be a good load for a 357 flavor. Good shooting as always. Thanks.
Thank you. The Golden Saber, American Gunner and Gold Dot short barrel are so far, the only contenders as a real .357 Mag carry load in a snubby.
Went to the range yesterday and shot .38 Special out of my 2” Taurus 605 in single action at 20 yards. 10 shots all inside the 8 ring. I was happy. I hate shooting .357 with the factory grips. Those grooves on the back of the grip suck. My Pachmayr grips arrived after I went to the range, so today I’m going to change them out and give it a try. Oh, and they’re pretty grips. Maybe I should say handsome grips No, they’re pretty. I never open carry, but with grips that pretty I’m almost tempted.
Thanks for the tests, really informative. Golden Saber 357 are my preferred snub load because of price and recoil, even though it still stings out of my s&w 340. Jacket separation seems to be the only problem with this round. I’d like to see comparisons with Buffalo Bore low recoil .357 and Doubletap heavy 38+p 125gr as other lower recoil snub .357 options.
Thanks for watching. So far the best .357 Mag snub loads in my testing have been this, also the American Gunner and Gold Dot short barrel. All of those are about 350-375 ft lbs energy in the snub so very controllable. Also in .38 Special+P I did test the TAC-XP Buffalo Bore and it was about at the same energy level of those low end magnums and did well. Double Tap is something I tested in .357 Mag but not .38 Special and it did pretty well too, however I hear the Buffalo Bore "low recoil" isn't low recoil at all.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ Thanks for the info!
This confirmed what I was afraid of when I said I had reservations about Golden Sabers. Thank you for putting it to the test outstanding once again. I'm gonna shoot that Golden Saber out at next range visit and it will not be purchased again. As always stellar content my good man.
Thank you. I can assume maybe you are talking about jacket separation. I do have some 9mm+P and .45 ACP Golden Saber "bonded" that I will be testing soon and hopefully it will do better.
@@GunSam Yes sir
@@GunSam In most hollow points the lead core is what expands and does the damage. With the Golden Saber the brass jacket "fan blades" are the wounding mechanism. That is why they often separate from the core. This usually occurs well into the target and has little effect on wounding capability.
This was helpful. I wonder, have you revisited this particular test more recently using ballistics gel - same ammo brand/model for each caliber, same gun, different barrel lengths?
Good comparison. Always interested in snubbie ballistics info.
Very nice review. I have the 3" 686 plus w/7rds and love it. As much as I love this wheel gun and it's reliability... I still prefer my semi-auto HK9 Sub com9 and SF Mod2 .40 for carry. I love revolvers but I would rather have the rounds if needed... even though I still live in CT.. an anti-law abiding and pro-criminal State that restricts 10rd mags. Those 3-5 xtra rounds could make a difference. I know this wasn't exactly your point... but I saw your nice leather revolver holster.
I just put my down payment on a snub nose .357 to carry, thanks in part to your videos showing how practical and effective they can be. Not a taurus though, I ended up picking Charter Arms because it's made in CT and they have a reputation for good customer service.
I have been interested in a Charter Bulldog in .44 Special for some time. I hope I can get one someday and do some .44 Special tests. I don't know much about their revolvers in general other than they invented the transfer bar. Thanks for watching.
I recently picked up a .357 Mag Pug. 2.2" barrel. So far, 100 rounds run through with good results. I am especially fond of the Remington UMC .357, 125 grain, JSP. Those bad boys are rated at 1450 fps tested with 4" barrel. My Charter Arms snub is launching that ammo at 1200 fps! I use Hornady Critical Defense .38 special, 110 grain FTX for home protection because of outstanding performance in 2" barrels but mostly because of the noise differences when fired in your bedroom.
Love my mag pug. And when you call charter arms, a nice lady answers and i swear she knows my name. It’s pretty incredible
I was under the impression the Golden Sabre's were better than that, thanks for proving me wrong
One thing that I have notice that I wasn't aware of (and I found this out last night from ordering 9mm+P and .45 Golden Saber ammo with my order) is that some Golden Saber ammo is listed as "bonded" and some is not. I noticed after the fact that the .357 Mag and .38 Special is not specifically listed as bonded as where the 9mm+P and .45 ACP are listed as such.
@@GunSam The Black Belt flavor, at least in 9mm, offers a mechanical bond on the Golden Sabre bullet.
Another great presentation. I like snub nose revolvers, they make me feel like Humphrey Bogart for some reason--and how can that be bad? In any case, Your in depth comparisons in this vid (and others) are very useful. Also, you have a smooth and logical presentation method that is easy to watch. Rock on.
Thank you. I am probably a little young to know the name, I have heard that name but can't put it together who he is. Seems like even in movies from the '80's and '90's, that if the character used a revolver vs the others using a semi auto, that the revolver guy was either the leader or the most "badass" of the bunch.
@@GunSam Ahhh Sam - you and your significant other need to watch the Maltese Falcon with Humphrey Bogart. He plays a 1940's detective named Sam Spade.
Also Casablanca. African Queen is another good Bogart movie
@@Ultrad321 Yes, how ironic "play it Sam. Play it again." Of course everybody quotes it wrong as "Play it again Sam." Still though, what's not to love about Bogart and Sam Spade of that matter?
Yeah mine makes me feel like Sam Spade also.....let's go find the Maltese Falcon.......lol
Ever tried taking a Sharpie to those Golden Sabers? Appreciate all the work behind the data!
Yes, I have to with solid copper and Golden Saber and it does seem to help. With Golden Saber I think they reflect more than regular copper, and with solid copper they are less dense and therefore longer for weight, and again more reflective than normal.
Good stuff 👍
Great video. Being a revolver guy I really enjoy these videos and you pit it to the test before my eyes. I have a request after seeing this... I would be very curious to see the exact same test only compare a snubbie to a 3 inch barrel revolver. I hear how much greater velocity one can get going from a 2 inch to a three inch but I never saw it put to the test.
Oh and please not golden saber again unless it all you have.
I'd have to acquire another 3" as I don't have one at the moment, but if I do ever get a 3" i'd be testing it for sure.
If you know you have trouble with Golden Sabers why use them for a “Definitive” test...? I am glad that you did the test however.
I be re-watching this for a few times! You planned the wind for extra views. 😎 I must know. 😊
Sam, thanks for a very well done video. I've been running the .38 and .357 Golden Saber loads since they were introduced, and have chronographed quite a few of them. I used to play hell trying to get readings as well back when I used a Chrony. I have since switched up to a Competition Electronics unit, which reads Golden Sabers better for me in flat light. I've also shot a few dozen of both loads past a lab grad chrono from a number of guns.
I find that with my guns, 875 fps is a pretty safe bet from a 2-inch gun for the .38 Special, with a 4-inch tube bringing me up by another 100 fps. Both bullets perform about the same in gelatin, with expansion being a bit fuller and more complete from 4-inch guns. Speaking of expansion, early editions of this load would sometimes not expand at all from a snub after denim, but they seemed to have worked this out. In my last test, I fired ten of these into clothed gel out of a Model 442, and ten for ten expanded. For an old load, it performs admirably from either barrel length, and I'm fine with it. It seems acceptably accurate out to 25 yards, but nothing to write home about.
On the .357 Magnum, I've never had one of these rounds clock faster than 1,250 fps, regardless of barrel length, but with my 4-inch guns, velocity hovers between 1,200-1,250 and recoil is very mild for a Magnum. If I run Magnums in my vintage K-frames at all, it is this load. From my 2.5" Model 66, I get right at 1,100 fps, so that inch and a half difference costs me something. But still I'm running the equivalent of a good 9mm +P load in that revolver, in a package that I can shoot very well without a lot of conscious thought. My 2-inch SP101 is a little bit speedier, according to my notes, I'm getting about 1,140 fps from it with the Magnum load, but it is a much newer gun and has not been shot nearly as much as my snub Model 66. I did shoot some of this load out of a borrowed 3-inch Model 65, and noticed very little difference between its velocities and my 4-inch Model 19. Again, accuracy at 25 yards was acceptable. I did get about 4 inches more penetration with this load from a 2-inch snub than I did from a 4-inch, but with similar expansion (the 4-inch shots may have expanded slightly more fully but you would have to look hard to tell).
So, based on years of testing this load, for what it is worth, I got about the same results you did, except that I think your chronograph might have been a tad optimistic. I carry the .38 Special load daily in the Model 442, and carried it on police duty as a backup on my ankle as well. I like it as well as anything else out there, except maybe the new HST load, but that can be hard to find. In the Magnum, I think a load like it, scaled back just a bit from full-house .357 levels is a great idea, and what most people really ought to be carrying in a small to medium sized Magnum snub, if they can handle it.
Thanks for doing videos for those of us who still like revolvers!
Thank you. I have noticed that now days there is the variation of the Golden Saber ammo with a different name in "full size handgun" or "compact handgun". From what people say the bullet is slightly different, and I know that the Golden Saber bonded is yet again different than the others too. Interesting how Remington just keeps tweaking rather than making something new, which is fine by me. I still have a bunch of the magnum ammo left to test in the future, i'll come up with something i'm sure :)
Sam, from watching your previous vids using Golden Saber from a snub-nose having chrony issues, (yet, from the longer barrel, you're not having the same issues it seems). I'm going to suggest that there is a significant amount of unburnt powder obscuring the sky screens and leading to the error readings. See if stepping back a couple yards improves your chrony readings
I have tried from 10 yards+ with still no reads. I also tried to color the exposed bullets with a black marker and that reduced the no reads greatly. This says to me that the brass jacket's reflection is the cause.
@@GunSam So, why do you suppose your longer barreled examples have greater success?
Never had good luck with the golden sabers.I have been very interested in the damage of the lehigh defense extreme defense ammo. It looks not to be velocity dependent , barrier blind and has double the wound channel. My next batch of handloads im gonna try them out. Good video as always. .357 mag all the way for snubby but with the lehigh bullet design I may switch to .38 sp lol
Thank you. I have tried the Underwood version of the extreme defender and wasn't that impressed. It's a good concept, but without slow motion cameras it's nearly impossible to test if it tumbles or does some weird thing that will match a HP expansion, so for me personally i'm not the best guy to test it.
@@GunSam yah it seems like the people who have tested have had to slow it down to see it do its deed. But that does not take away from the videos you have made which are great and show the merits of the snub nose .357 magnum in all its glory. Do you ever plan to do some testing with .38 sp vs .380acp?
@@TrueMesa I have done a whole series on .38 SPL vs .38 Special last year, and recently I added the .38 vs .380 in Rem HTP and Federal HST to my new testing method with the jug-or-not.
@@GunSam oh man have to catch up on watcging them good stuff
I just got a Taurus 605. Can’t wait to test it at the range.
9 months later, I'm interested what you think. I'm eyeballing one while waiting for my permit to come in.
@@joshthompson112 I have been carrying it and got no complaints or mechanical problems of any kind. I’m being daring when I say it’s as good as a smith and Wesson.
@@danielaramburo7648 nice. I just have to find one in stock now.
@@joshthompson112 good luck.
Another detailed, informative video. Started shooting DA revolvers a couple years ago. Especially snubs. Love your insight and expertise. Keep up the great work!
Thank you and thanks for watching! DA is very fun, once you get that knack of how to shoot it you never go back to SA. I find that the DA extra pressure needed to squeeze the trigger also stabilizes slight shaking that one can get with a light trigger pull.
" Take a moment to think about recovering from recoil " ? IF one is to contemplate using ( particular load with significant recoil ) for social purposes , it is incumbent to train with it until that IS your muscle memory , And you can control it in reasonably rapid fire with good accuracy .
Thought #1 - Yes , it is certainly possible to do . It will require repetitions , and likely subtle refinements of your grip, stance, etc .
The side benefit is that once you master full power .357 , dropping back to mere .38spl will feel like a .22lr , and you can control it like greased lighting .
Thought #2 - With these types of guns , the limiting factor is the Shooter, not the ammunition . Try different things, and be honest with yourself . Hitting accurately , and rapidly with great control is more important that absolute power .
If that's .38+P , that's certainly Reasonably Adequate .
A mid level .357 is even better , and gives nothing up to the class of " duty pistols generally considered pretty damn effective " .
I always use 357 Hornady Custom or Barnes. For me, it's my normal recoil, but it takes a lot of regular range time and a LOT of extra money. Not saying anything negative about a 38, I have and carry a light weight 38.
I do the same thing. I feel like the .357 Mag is superior, however you just can't carry as light as an alloy .38 Special. Like today, needed to go grocery shopping and take the kids. I don't want a lot of weight dragging me down, so I slip the alloy .38 in my pocket.
Good comparison test. For the average shooter, .38 + p is the way to go. It's a very effective round. I own several .357 magnum and .38 revolvers, so you would be right to accuse me of being a fan of both rounds. Overall, .38 special + p is all you really need. Remember that this what most law enforcement used for decades going into some very bad situations and it worked for them. If you can handle the increased recoil, noise and heat blast, then go for the magnum. I would definitely recommend wearing ear muffs if you are carrying it to meet uninvited guests in your house. As far as the recoil goes, it becomes a non issue with experience and you just learn to ride it. Just remember even though the extra power gives you an edge, it doesn't turn it into a nuke.
I have a SP101 2.25" barrel. Was planning on getting a GP100 4". Not sure it will do anymore than the SP101. I might put the money into a rifle.
A GP100 4" would be similar to my 4" S&W 686. I have owed a couple of SP101's in 3" and 2.25" and they are pretty good guns, but going from 2.25" to 4" with lets say a full house 125 gr magnum will increase your velocity from maybe 1,275 FPS to 1,450 FPS, plus the recoil will be significantly less.
Could it be more unburned powder from the snubby that's interfering with you chrono? I suggest putting a piece of cardboard just before the chrono with as small a hole as possible that you're comfortable shooting through. SAAMI specs are mostly 15' from the chrono.
Shot placement is king. 2events stop a BG.blood lost and disruption of the central nervous system.
I used to carry a snub nosed revolver a lot.For me it takes a lot of practice to master and maintain the skill to shoot 357 mag well in a snubby. So when I was practicing a lot with the 357 and was really good with it I'd carry that ammo. If I wasn't practicing as much with it I'd carry 38's. IMO a 357 snub nose is an expert's gun, most people would be better off with a 38, even experts.
It's always a pain that in a snubby, the round is twice the power of a 9mm and twice the recoil too, but the performance is only 20% more. But, hard core revolvers guys will never give it up because they love punishment!
@@GunSam Haha...true.
😄 well, I guess I’m a glutton for punishment.
Actually, I’ve found that the Critical Defense standard .38 with the 110 gr FTX is fairly comfy to shoot, even in an Airweight J-Frame with the standard S&W OEM boot grips. And the performance numbers on it are good enough that I feel confident carrying it.
Plus, “this gun fits my hand better than that one does”. 😂
@@timsharkey1993 I should try the standard pressure. I know that the +P compared to other +P's, the Critical Defense +P sounds like a big boom sound like a magnum. I shouldn't be surprised as I was getting 1,130 FPS in a 4" barrel. That's 9mm velocity with a lot less pressure, so obviously there's a lot of powder in the +P Critical Defense.
It may be the individual firearms (both snubbies), but I find I shoot my .44 Spl. better than my .357 even if it's loaded with .38 or .38+P. It has me in the market for a snub .44 mag but the Ruger Alaskan is a tad out of my price range at the moment. ;)
More good info Sam!👍👍
Thanks!
What would you say about the rt 85 ultralite vs this rt 605 for ankle carry, as a backup gun?
I have tried ankle carry and I can never do it well. If you go with the lightest possible and use an ankle holster that is very slim, like the ones that are more of a pocket with a strap rather than a molded holster, those ones work alright.
@@GunSam thanks for the answer. will test the options, great video btw.
I never shoot 357 magnum out of a 2 inch J frame size revolver unless it was my only option. I have a smith 640 and a Taurus 605 and I use 38 special plus P in both of them because it’s to much muzzle blast and recoil to deal with.
I would suggest using a permanent marker to darken the bullets on those Golden Sabers to help them register on your chrono. Thanks for another interesting vid. I carry a Taurus 605 with 38 special handloads with 140 gr Lehigh Defense defender bullets - about 1000 fps.
I have done it. Doesn't work. Totally different issue, which I figured out like 3 years ago.....this video is old. I always laugh at the comments on videos 4, 5, 7 years old "next time" do this comments.
Does shooting 38sp in a 357 cylinder wear it down more or no ?
One thing I probably need to do is find out which ammo my SP101 is most accurate with and easiest to shoot and stick with that. I have been buying alot of different make and type of .38/ .38+p and .357 ammo. Probably a waste of money.
If you like Sam's tests think about supporting him on Patreon. TH-cam isn't subsidizing him and these tests take time and money.
A black magic marker on those golden sabres will do wonders for your chronograph.
I actually already did that about a week ago lol, have yet to test them. I figure coloring the exposed bullet should help some.
Sam, since I know you handload, I would like to see a test using a 38 spl +p with a 110 grain Hornady XTP over a max charge of Unique. I think Lymans lists it a 7.1 grains.
Use a j frame from to launch it with the 1 7/8 inch barrel.
This is my EDC carry load.
Thanks!
It's possible if I remember. I don't have that powder currently but have Titegroup and Universal.
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ see what you can do about getting the velocity up to about 1000 fps. That’s in the area that mine are with Unique. +/- a few fps depending... thanks!
@@GunSam
I am interested in the 110 grain XTPs as well. Only I am more curious about them in a 357 mag. Maybe load up some magnums too. Don't have to be max loads or anything, maybe 1250-1400 fps. I'm pretty confident that the XTP is tough enough to handle a magnum loading.
I have a 605 last Wednesday I shot a Buffalo Bore 38 special+P 158 grain hard cast against Winchester white box 357 mag 110 grain hollow point and I can definitely say the Buffalo Bore 38+P had a stronger felt recoil.
Yes. I had done the recoil calculations in the past, I cannot remember the numbers but it was something along the lines of maybe 10 ft lbs of recoil with a magnum and like 27 ft lbs recoil with the Buffalo Bore .38+P. I'm estimating, I just remember it was surprising.
@@GunSam yes it really surprised me that the 38 had more kick than the magnum....but hey the world is full of surprises
damn im digging that sleeveless denim...
Someone have me several of them lol.
I like the Ruger SP101 snub. .38spl +p is adequate. .357mag is a beast, however. People tell me my ear drums will get thrashed with .357mag. My response is “If I stopped my attacker does it matter?”
Good video but I was actually searching for a 38 special plus P plus versus 357 mag
That's what I used here.
@@GunSam oh ok the video description says +p not +p+
I used +P. I thought that's what you said, not i'm not using +P+ ammunition. The only +P+ .38 Special I know of is law enforcement ammo and hard to find.
I thought I just had would be to take a .44 magnum marker sold at Walmart or a black sharpie and color the golden saber bullets before firing to possibly make them more visible.
I have used the sharpie marker after the fact since this video and it does indeed work for Golden Saber. However, other rounds that I have also had an issue with are not fixed by the sharpie. Those are the full copper rounds, just like Golden Saber there's excessive reflection vs a standard weight jacketed bullet with regular copper, but because those full copper bullets are less dense and long for caliber, only 1/3 of it is out of the case to color with the marker.
I honestly think you need a better chronograph because of all the errors you are getting but otherwise I really enjoy your videos. I own 5 different 357 magnum revolvers. 1 Taurus 605 and 2 Ruger Security 6s, one SP101 and a 4” GP100. All are stainless except the Security 6 .357 magnum revolvers but I love them all. Thank you for your efforts
Chronograph has been flawless lately. Bad lighting isnt the machine's fault
SUBBED! Good channel bud! Nice setups, nice quality, good narration. To improve tests, a bag of oranges or watermelon might be better to simulate lung tissue (ala Paul Harrell) than water jugs ( though water jugs, and jugs in general, are fun... but I digress)... SUBBED! Great for education, and as the great P.H. would say “It tells us what it tells us”. Thanks man! #2A.
Water jugs & water in general tends to just slow down bullets without much in the way of “ballistics science”. But hey, you’re doing WAY MORE than I’m doing. I’m stuck in the People’s Republic of Maryland (PRoMD) and I need to buy some property in West Virginia (a TRUE Constitutional Carry state, 👍) so I can safely & freely build my own test range. Again, thank you! I’m really learning from what you are doing. SUBBED! SUBBED! SUBBED!
Thank you. If I changed my test medium I would completely throw off a year worth of comparison though. I know how my medium compares exactly to other rounds vs current test rounds and also exactly how my medium compares to gel, so i'm not changing it.
Can you take a black (sharpie) and blacken the golden sabers to get a read?
I have done that before. I happened to get readings however I don't know if it was from the marker or just a good day for lighting conditions.
@@GunSam it was just a thought......you put your heart and soul into your tests and I like to see you get the best results possible
Just as in your video the Golden Saber bullets usually shed their jackets in Paul Harrell's meat test.
My take away from this and other info is that if you are committed to a 2" barrel, then use .357. If you are committed to 38 Special use a 4" barrel.
I usually feel the opposite as a 2" barrel is easy to handle .38 Special in it and a 4" is easy to handle .357 magnum.
Personally the .357 is a superior load then the +P’s, even in snubby’s! It’s what I carry in my RIA AL 3.1. 6 shot.
It almost seemed like you were rooting for the +P but in the end had to admit that, for this ammo, the 357 was the winner. If you look back at your video (I know you've seen a whole lot of it when editing), the only thing objectively visible with he 357 was that you shot it a tad slower. I'm sure this is because you mostly shoot specials. I would be loading the 357 between these two rounds. I don't think the split times matter too much in the real world because the bad guy can only fall down so fast.
It would be interesting to see how the Golden Saber performs next to the HTP in 125gr. I've got a bunch of the HTP. For reasons, I can't just pick up a case of the Golden Saber. Credit Card has it's limits ;-)
I think the takeaway out of this whole test, (and as the shooter it's very clear but it's not clear to some viewers that don't shoot .357 Magnum in a snubby) is that a full house .357 Magnum is nearly useless as a short barrel load, certainly it does well if it hits the target, but the recoil is terrible, so the confidence with a full house is low and confidence is extraordinarily important. Between a full house .357 Magnum and a .38 Special+P, the .38 Special wins hands down for confidently shooting it well.
The exception is the light .357 Magnum, it's in between the .38+P and full house Magnum, has similar performance to the full house load but similar confident controllability to the .38 Special.
@@GunSam It certainly would be nice if more manufacturers created 357 loads specifically optimized for ~2" barrels that were somewhere between +P and proper 357 levels. The real difficulty with that, IMO, is all that case space. I suspect that they can over come that issue by loading HP wadcutters that sit deep in the case and are jacketed (essentially a new bullet) and borrowing tricks from the shotgun world like adding fiberboard spacers so that the powder charge is compressed into a smaller volume. I know most of the blast comes from the powder. For the lighter bullets, I'm pretty sure most of the recoil also comes from the powder. That may seem strange, but consider that if the muzzle pressure was still at 30k PSI levels, that is 1.5 tons of force pushing back on you!
@@GunSam I've just had another thought (a record for the year?). I've found that I get comfortable with a particular cadence when shooting. Recoil certainly does enter into it and more recoil does slow down my cadence.
Yes. I see no reason why they cannot make a short barrel load and load it like a Federal HST, for all "intents and purposes" lol, it would be a 9mm load. Also it would be perfectly efficient as even a 2" barrel gets almost 3" of interior ballistic travel after detonation.
Yes. And I find that above 135 gr, it's just not right in a snubby, for me anyhow. Now those .45 Auto guys would feel perfect with 180 gr .357's as that muzzle jump is their cup of tea.
It would be entirely within the realm of handloading to roll up a load that took advantage of a .357RM's higher chamber pressure with the view toward maximizing a snubbie's potential. A very fast powder behind a heavy bullet so that the powder is almost completely burnt before the back of the bullet reaches the cylinder gap would be the way to go, I think. [Ie, max pressure for the shortest interval.] But nobody seems to offer this commercially. Meanwhile, why is it so difficult to find a .357 with a 3" barrel? Best of both worlds. Where's Locutus when you need him? 😁
I feel that 327 federal magnum is the best alternative. More powerful than 38+p and less recoil than 357 magnum.
I been liking the .327 Federal and .32 H&R I have been testing. I like the Hydrashok .327 Federal because it's only 250 ft lbs energy, low recoil but lots of energy for how small the bullet is. The Gold Dot .327 Federal was not lower recoil than the Gold Dot .357 Mag, but it was also more powerful than the .357 Mag. The .32 H&R can only be described as the recoil of a .22 but damage of a .38 Special.
Or 9mm revolver
I bought Golden Saber 124 grn +P 9 mm, BJHP, thinking it was 'bonded', come to find out the 'B' stood for brass, not bonded. Just checking to make sure your boxes actually said 'bonded'? Come to find out the boxes labelled clearly as 'bonded' are quite a bit more expensive also.
I have tested both, I happened to pay the same amount for the bonded and not bonded, but they are really a totally different design. I suspect that the bonded version isn't even brass jacketed as it looked like copper and very orange, as where the original is clearly brass as it's really yellow.
@@GunSam Well I am keeping these in my rotation. Will look for bonded when the price comes down. That is probably what I saw, the huge price gouging going on these days. But I prefer bonded. I don;t care for jacket separation if I can avoid it.
@@nathanlambshead4778 There's a lot of good bonded ammo out there other than Remington. As far as a plated bonded I really like the Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger/Defender. Also a good mechanical bonded bullet like Critical Duty or HST does well too.
@@GunSam Might also get SIG Elite V crown (or whatever it's called)
S w 442 or lcr 357 im stuck and want to make the right purchase the first time.
Personally i'd go with the Ruger LCR. The Ruger LCR however doesn't represent a true revolver trigger pull and all of that, but still it's better than a 442 because you have a lot more options of ammo and also .38 Special will have less recoil in the .357 LCR from the added weight. A 442 is fine, but it's not really made for shooting .38 Special all the time, a LCR .357 Mag IS made to shoot .38 Special all the time with the added option to shoot .357 Magnum ammo.
Great video very informative. What holster are you using for the Taurus 2"?
Thanks. It's a Desantis thumb break designed for the Ruger SP101
This was probably the best video you have ever done. Thank you. I would like to see a comparison through the Jug-Or-Not box of three Hornady rounds out of your Airlite snubby. The Critical Defense +P, Critical Defense standard pressure and Critical Defense LIte. I would be willing to fund such a test via your Paypal account if you would agree to do it. Thanks again
Thank you. That would be an interesting test for sure. If I was going to do a test like that I would extract as much usable information as possible from 3 boxes. I would run all three through the 2" barrel and also 4" barrel through the chronograph and catch the accuracy during that and then run each through the bologna target in each barrel length, so 6 chronograph/accuracy readings and 6 ballistic tests. It would be pretty cool to see and easily done with one box of each ammo, as 12 rounds from each 20 round box would complete the test.
@@GunSam Ok, I will send the funds. In the future you might consider a study of standard pressure 38 Special loads for use in older revolvers that are not rated for +P.
@@Pointblank2U Thank you. I will work on the video as soon as time and availability of ammo permit. I have seen all the ammo varieties online but I will have to pick up other supplies at the beginning of next week and I will then plan it all out. Standard pressure .38 ammo is one I have not worked on much other than in 200 gr and wadcutters as HP's usually fail to expand, but there are a few good standard pressure ammo varieties out there.
@@Pointblank2U Everything transferred successfully. I will order the ammo and it should arrive by Thursday-Friday depending on when the order is put in when the paypal clears the bank. Thanks, it will be an interesting test for sure.
@@GunSam Thanks for the update. Are you on Patreon?
I carry a 1911 in .45acp. My wife carries a Taurus 605 with .357 loads. She keeps telling me , " If you're not getting adequate penetration... you're just wasting your time."
Hmmm.
We don't want to here about u and your wife's sex life
What holster is that
38+p in smaller frame 357...357 for heavier built snubs
I'm a 38+ p fan for better control with nice power...less hurts
I'm probably going to get roasted here for this comment, but I don't really see too much of a purpose for a 22mag or 22lr snub. Do people use these as back up guns? I love to plink targets with a nice single action in 22, but I definitely get dud rounds. Too many to be comfortable with carrying. I don't want the rimfire to become obsolete, they have their purpose. I just won't bet my life on it.
The only advantage I see for 357 in a snubbie is for black bear defense. Otherwise I carry 38+P.
@Whoop!
I've never been impressed with the accuracy of the golden saber. What ever firearm I fired it in it always sucked. It just not you....
I would love to see a .38 Special compared to a.45 Long Colt. I’m thinking more of the low velocity cowboy loads. Say, 4.75 barrel? It’s not common but I’ve heard people who live or work on ranches will sometimes carry a .45 LC. I imagine the stopping power is similar to a .38. I wouldn’t carry a .45 but I must confess, the SAA Colt feels very comfortable to me (I haven’t tried a Model 10 .38 but I imagine it would be comfortable too).
Ranchers do sometimes carry .45 Colt, although I'd say probably about equally carry .357 magnum. Some guys like the .45 Colt mostly for reasons of tradition and in reality, we don't really anticipate using them against humans. They're more for snakes, pests, and annoying coyotes so speed of firing and reloading aren't big factors. It's pretty common to carry a round of snake shot as the first up and the .45 Colt carries a bigger shot payload than any other common caliber. Also, .45 Colt comes in a huge variety of power factors from "cowboy" loads which are about in the .357 magnum power range to heavy loads which rival the power factor of .44 magnum. The powerful stuff isn't safe in older and "cowboy clone" revolvers but the popular Ruger Vaquero and Ruger Blackhawk handle it fine. At the end of the day, I'd have to say many of us carry single-actions on the ranch more for nostalgia than for practical reasons. For our purposes it isn't really a handicap compared to a double-action revolver or semiauto pistol but you just feel more like a cowboy with a single-action.
Internet tells me there is no such thing as long colt.
Perhaps you could try a different chronograph?
I see no reason for that. With most ammo on most days if I shoot accurately over it, it works great. And if you see my latest video with Golden Saber, you will know I for sure would never buy them again, so no reason to spend money just because of them.
Try that with 38 HST, not having an exposed projectile is nearly impossible to reload
I have. They are a little odd as ammunition goes as does not represent the HST line very well. They only do 775 FPS so the lowest energy +P rounds I have tested. They under penetrate, however they are accurate.
If I had 357 can used 38 special ammunition why I would buy it 38 I had gun shot 357 and 38