Cellos with extra fiber?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I discuss and show 3 cellos made from fiber reinforced composite materials.
0:09 Flax fiber cello
4:00 Glass fiber cello
9:07 Carbon fiber cello
Here you can hear the glass fiber cello played by professional musicians:
• Takemitsu: Orion (for ...
Check out the compilation video of how I made the carbon fiber cello:
• Making a Cello From Ca...
Music at the end by Patrick Housen and Jasmijn Lootens on the carbon fiber cello.
Really creative work and wonderful tone!🙏
i searched the internet high and low for this info. THANK YOU !!!
You're welcome!
I absolutely LOVE the flax fiber cello
The recording of vocals is too low. I had to rely on closed captioning to know what you were saying. But the recording level for the instruments was fine. I'm surprized I didn't see other comments on that
So much for sound experts.
Flax is definitely the most beautiful in my eyes!
I think they all sound fantastic and unique in their own right, I am surprised you haven't started your own company making these for people.
I love the sound of the cellos! Great work!
That is incredibly beautiful!
I like the sound of my home made carbon fiber cello better.
That flax cello looks very good.
do a hemp fiber cello next !
Hemp hell, let's do a Mary J. Huana cello! Just kidding! 😉
Ooooh, that would be an interesting comparison, Mary J fibre, coca fibre, poppy stem fibre, ephedra fibre, etc... JK!
I mean on my phone speaker it's hardly an acid test but none of them seem to possess that ultra rich dark powerful open C string sound.
Well, you said it yourself already a little... on a phone speaker you will not be able to tell. Also: I'm not a great player. I assure you a better cellist can easily make the carbon or flax fiber cello's C string sound 'rich', 'dark', 'powerful' and 'open'. I suggest you listen to the video of a later flax fiber cello on my youtube channel. It's a better recording and a better cellist! And also maybe listen with some good headphones or something instead of your phone speaker ;)
i think the carbon has more amplitude !
That's very interesting! I have been playing with the thought of making a carbon fiber cello, especially one with the fibers running in a similar fashion to wood grain. Do you find that the weave of the fibers affects the tone a lot?
Also, from the few CF cellos and bows I've tried I have found just a bit sterile for my taste. Do you think it can be as complex of a tone as a wooden cello?
Essentially what I want to make is a cello which is as close to a wooden cello as possible in terms of sound and response, but stable in humidity so I could take it sailing and keep in shape without worrying about the sea air apart from maybe having to swap strings when I got home.
Hi Tobias, the weave affects the isotropy of the soundboard which has a huge influence on the sound of the instrument. I think a carbon cello can certainly sound as complex as a wooden cello, but to match the sound and response exactly is a very difficult undertaking. Personally, I think it is more interesting to investigate possibilities for new sounds with these materials. If you work only with unidirectional fibers the soundboard will be fragile, so I would recommend using at least one woven layer in your layup (for example as the middle layer).
@@TimDuerinck Thanks for your reply! Yes, some weaving is necessary, I am aware of that. Just how much is the question.
I agree that exploring new tonal characters is more exciting than chasing down a way of doing what is already achievable, but for my purpose of staying in shape on the cello, I think it's important that the two are as close as possible and that I can still work with colours in the sound etc.
I was wondering, btw. Can you take these apart? I saw your other videos some time ago, but don't remember what glue you used. I would imagine that the few wooden parts would need some maintenance during its life time, even if the plates are very stable?
@@tobiasradmer4276 How much is a subjective question. The more you will use the more durable the instrument will be, but it will change the timbre as well. As you are aiming for a sound close to wood I can't really tell you where the 'optimal' will be. You can try and match the tap tones of the soundboard to that of a conventional soundboard, that could help, but only if the model is the same (so using conventional C-bout corners etc.). I use epoxy to glue the top and back plate together. So it's not really meant to take apart again. You could, but you'll probably have to change or repair the linings and blocks (which are PU foam in my carbon cello). The only wooden parts on the inside are the bass bar and sound post. The sound post can be adjusted as conventional. In normal circumstances I don't think the bass bar will require maintenance. Of course you can opt for a glue which is less strong so you can take the top plate of the body more easily.
@@TimDuerinck Right... Matching the tap tones might be a possibility, but then I'm limited to a shape I've built before. I think if I'm going to make one, it will just be one or two layers across.
I suppose you glued the bass bar with epoxy as well, so that's not going to come loose any time soon, What I was thinking of was the blocks and bass bar, but it might just be worrying too much. Especially if your blocks are PU? I actually thought they were wood
Ohhhhhhhh ❤❤❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Open strings always show the true timbre. :)
Oh... I wonder if there are violins made of flax!
There are! I've made one, it sound very warm and round! You can check out my website: timduerinck.be/music-instruments/ or the award I've won with them: www.henryvandevelde.be/en/entry/string-instruments-made-flax
@@TimDuerinck email sent!
Curiosity question, ever made a 5 string flax cello? It looks beautiful, like dark chocolate in the light. So tasty.
Thank you! I have not yet made a 5-string flax cello. The carbon cello from this video currently has a high E string on it (and no low C, so it is still a 4-string). It is very fun to play and the sound works quite well! I would definitly be interested in making a 5-string composite cello on demand!
@@TimDuerinck When I finish chewing down payments on my cello at hand. I am working on becoming solidified as the permanent owner of a mezzo forte cello with 5 strings. If you ever get around to building a 5 string flax, I would make it mine. I would have to arrange these things through my favored violin shop after I'm done with existing payments, and so it's still some years away. Keep in touch? :)
@@alissajohnson1650 Hi Alissa, I make instruments on order, so when you are interested in purchasing an instrument from me I suggest we discuss it then! You can always contact me through my fb-page facebook.com/AtelierDuerinck or we can e-mail or call. If you want to stay updated on my work I suggest following my fb-page, I'm most active on that. All the best, Tim
Thank you very much for this series of videos Tim, this was very insightful... Crazy overtones on these Cellos in general, but especially on the low C. Seems these composites really let most of the sound that's there in the first place through. Might be playing technique as well, so it might have been interesting to hear one of the wooden Cellos played with the same recording setup. Still, very interesting. I've been researching how to build with carbon fiber, since an Instrument I want to build (or rather, an attachment to an instrument) requires that it be built out of carbon for stiffness-thickness ratio reasons.
One question: Is the fingerboard on the cello still carbon, like you showed in the former video? If so, isn't it a pain to work with, compared to ebony? Some people on the other videos also mentioned "string-smack" noise in regard to carbon fingerboards... On the other hand, would it give more sustain and "mwah" on pizzicato, when played with jazz technique? Richlite might be a viable alternative; it's what all the NS-Design electric instruments have for fingerboards... My luthier loved working on my NXT5 basses' fingerboard, said it was much easier to work than ebony.
Hello Jan, thank you for your comment! The fingerboard is indeed carbon fiber, and it is not for everyone. Personally I'm still on the lookout for an affordable alternative to ebony for cellos. My next experiment regarding soundboards will be with flax fibers, in an effort to reduce the string smacking noise. The amount of noise does depend on playing technique, so if you dont hammer down with your fingers too much you do not hear it. Many professional cellists sare therefor not bothered by it, but for amateur players (like myself) it is harder. As such it is a good training for technique ;)
@@TimDuerinck Have you tried Richlite or Rocklite before? As far as I can tell, it's actually cheaper than ebony... In any case, I'd be interested in your results. I'm not a luthier myself, but the crazy ideas I tend to have dictate that I at least familiarize myself with the processes and materials that are out there, if not in practice, then at least in theory.
That said, now that I think about it, a carbon fingerboard might even be preferable for some applications. The Sarod, for example, uses a metal fingerboard after all, and I've not heard people complain about string smack in that regard, even though the metal fingerboard is presumably harder than carbon fiber.
@@dāzainmusic As far as I know, Richlite and Rocklite do not produce fingerboards for cellos? For guitars there are quite some alternatives on the market, but for violins, and cellos especially this is much less the case.
@@TimDuerinck True, one would have to start from a blank slab... Now that I look at it, they don't even sell slabs in the right dimensions per default! One could probably still get a blank with the right dimensions when contacting them, though.
@@dāzainmusic Yes, probably. The flax fiber fingerboards I would make myself using a mold, so they would already be more or less in shape. If I can make a system like that I would prefer it over a few blanks I could get my hands on.
I wonder how the 'soft' flax/linseed cello would sound with gut strings. This material might also work well for a gamba. The demo already sounds a little like a bass de viole in the higher region, but softer. Or perhaps smaller instruments - viola, or even violin?
Glass fiber cello sounds like it requires a completely different playing style. A soloist would probably have to temper the playing style (attack?) on the instrument as it would easily start to 'clip'.
Carbon fiber: I never liked the sound of that.
But the glass fiber has a wide range of color and I wonder how many new sounds you could get out of it with all those overtones. Sounds that would not be possible with a traditional naturally grown hydrocarbonate foam (a.k.a. wooden) cello.
This instrument is what an electric guitar is compared to a classical guitar: much more 'ugly' and harsh sounds which, for the guitar, have been happily adopted by the blues and rock-and-roll scene.
While I think the flax would work well for higher pitch instruments, the glass fiber might work will in the lower regions....double bass?
@@ErikBongers As I have said in the video, the preference between these instruments is subjective. A violin with a soundboard from flax was liked by listeners in a scientific study I have recently published (asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/10.0001159), so your remarks certainly make sense. I have never made a double bass. It would certainly be an interesting experiment to make one from glass fiber! But I think I might need to hire some help in that case: I'm quivering with the thought of having to make a glass fiber mold for a double bass by myself. It would be huge and impossible to carry by myself. A mold for these cellos was already quite a challenge!
This is so cool! What layers are you using for your flax fiber cello and how thick does the layer get per sheet?
Hey! That is confidential information I'm afraid ^^
These cellos are fabulous! Thank you for sharing the video. I wonder if I could make an order of cello...
Will you please invite cellists to play these for comparison?
C/G/D/A string sound quality ratings:
Flax: 4/6/8/5
Glass: 3/7/7/7 (Lowest note 4)
Carbon: 3/5/8/7
(I'm not talking about EQ but quality of sound.)
Hi Arjuna, quality of sound is an extremely subjective property, so without any specifics I cannot know what you are talking about in this instance. I'm guessing you are rating the 'quality' of sound based on the sound color having or lacking a certain property like warmth, richness, brightness, harhshness, power, clarity, sharpness,...? The idea behind these cellos is that they are made to have a different sound color, which I explain in the video and I'm sure you can hear. Which one you like or dislike is personal. I'm surprised your score changes that much between the strings, as most cellists comment that the sound is very distinctive across all the strings. Perhaps it is due to my playing, which I must admit is quite rusty! ^^ Thank you for your comment, Tim
@@TimDuerinck Exactly!
I'd say I definitely focussed on dynamics, richness, clarity and resolution in this case though.
Obviously the mic might play a part.
I've reviewed quite a few other cello's on youtube. I was definitely impressed by your mid-highs on all the cellos, the lower string is often a problem with these materials.
Have you tried hybrids yet? Bamboo sandwitches?
@@Apoz I have made hybrid violins, but no cellos yet. I have also not worked with bamboo yet. It's a very strong, but also heavy wood. Theoretically it could work in a sandwich material. I have not made the calculations to see what the options of making a sandwich material would be (the variations in how thick the skin and core can be to reach a reasonable stiffness, the resulting weight of the soundboard,...). It would definitly be interesting to take a look at.
Do you prepare your own flax fibres or do you use some sort of unidirectional flax tape, like the Lingrove material? Where do you source the material?
Hi Mark, I got my material from Lineo, now called Eco-Technilin. I mostly use their Flaxtape at the moment.
It looks really great, I’m experimenting with some composite materials myself, I will try their flaxtape sometime. Do you use other fibres below the flaxtape? Like a twill?
@@markmeeus7466 I have tried a number of fibers and fabrics. For the cello I did use a woven fabric between the flaxtape layers for the back, sides and neck.
@@TabletopWargamer FLAXDRY-BL200, also from eco-technilin.
Do you sell flax cellos?
Next step: a graphene cello! Too expensive for now I'm afraid :-) I wonder: would it be possible to mix fibers? Create a hybrid between the three?
Hi Job, using multiple fibers is definitly possible, but it's not really a simple case of 1+1=2. There are certain restrictions to take into account for example in order to not have your piece warp during construction. There are some other issues as well. I have created violins in which the top plate is made from a different material than the body (ribs, back, & neck). That's the easiest way to make a hybrid.
@@TimDuerinck that makes sense - like the top and back of a traditional instrument are made from different kinds of wood. Did you like these hybrid violins?
@@jobterhaar yes, although I always make my top plates differently than my back plates, even when working with the same fiber. The one I made with a flax fiber top plate and carbon fiber body was especially liked by many listeners and players looking for a warm and easy sound. I do like them myself, but I also really like to push the boundaries of what is possible with just one material, because depending on how you use this material it effects the sound.
@@TimDuerinck I'm curious to try or hear some instruments in the future!
@@jobterhaar always welcome to visit my workshop and try some instruments!
Machinery to work with such materials costs a lot?
I make bowed istruments as a hobby and id like to experiment with unorthodox methods, do you think it is possible for a hobbyist to get the necessary equipment?
Hi Simone, I have selected my making method (which you can see in my video's on making a carbon cello by hand) to be relatively low tech. For the infusion of the composites you do need a vacuum pump and degassing chamber. I cut the composites using a dremel. So not that much machinery required!
@@TimDuerinck thanks! It seems doable, i will search the right vacuum pumps and degassing chambers.
Recently i have seen an italian luthier that makes ukuleles with a very unexpected material: sack cloth, he'called marco todeschini, check his stuff if you wamt
@@simonecamplani2430 Check out EasyComposites, they sell everything you need to get started at a reasonable price. They also have video's in which they use their own gear, so it's easy to learn how it works.
@@TimDuerinck thanks, very helpful
@@simonecamplani2430 Best of luck! Have fun!
Do you sell the carbon violins???
Hi Jonathan, yes, I make and sell instruments on order!
I want to test this cello with Sting gut !!!!
You can try to make a baroque copy ?
And have you test to build a cello with different part of fiber ?
Thanks for your response
Show #twosetviolin
I would love then to play these. :)
They just show old Stradivari and instruments alike, so I don't think they are open enough to play these instruments and take them seriously. It's a shame but the musicians' world is full of traditionalists, that even a simple carbon fiber bow is considered bad, just because it isn't wood.
@@189Blake i know right? I actually prefer these better. Less worry of accidental destruction.
@@189Blake because pernambuco wood is much better. If CF bows were any good many top musicians would use them on stage and recordings. Many don't care about what it is. The best CF bows are very musically dull to play. Sound lacks warmth and sensitivity to bow pressure micro-variation.
How to have one of your cello? Where to buy it?
Hi Jacques, I make and sell my cellos to order. If you are interested in buying one of my instruments just send me an e-mail at timduerinck@gmail.com or send me a message on my fb page: facebook.com/AtelierDuerinck All the best, Tim
Audio is veel te stil. Audiolevel van video staat op max en van PC ook, en toch is, vooral het praten, amper te horen.
Ah, bij mij is het wel luid genoeg om alles te verstaan. Ik let er op bij volgende video's! Bedankt voor de opmerking!
@@TimDuerinck the Audio of the Cellos sounds very great, only adjustment needed is for your Voice
did you try e glass or plain fibreglass ?
It's regular fiber glass! :)
That would be an interesting comparison for glass fibre; E-glass (alumino-boro w
@@FredtheDorfDorfman1985 A good question that cannot be known if you don't try. Personally I think the influence of lay-up and including a lightweight core is 'easier' to influence the sound.
Would you produce and sell these cellos?
Yes, I have a waiting list for when I start production to sell. At the moment the instruments are made for research purposes.
@@TimDuerinck I bet that's a long waiting list too. I'd have to say the flax is my fav.
Too quiet(
Can you make Steel Cello? 😆
No. Even if I could, steel is way to heavy to make a functional instrument from. Both for sound and practicality purposes. :)