UPDATE: In the video I *incorrectly* state the CH Pro Throttle doesn't have an analog axis for thrusters - if you look at the slide it is correct in that it does have this axis. Also I stated in the slide that it has twist - another mistake. Fuck me, I just screwed that one all to hell, didn't I? Apologies for the mistakes everyone!
m'eh :) 3 years on, still a great run-down. . New to Horizons (believe that!) I'm starting to learn that the DBX is everything I dreamed a Cobra 3 would be :D and that a Stick, if not full Hotas, is probably essential.
I have the thrustmaster warthog and it's great, however for Elite I would be extremely comfortable using the X52 pro as elites ship controls are a carbon copy of it, I've used the X52 pro in elite before and it's a great setup
@@zkmarkov2984 Pro X52 still in production, afaik. Seeing local stores are all waiting new units coming next month. Or did you mean specifically the grey X52 model?
I bought an X-52 many years ago for use with FSX, I never liked it because it felt very loose compared to my Logitech 3D pro, but I never refunded it. I started playing like 2 months ago and I realized the controls in Elite look very similar to it. I hadn't used it in years, so I had to take it down from the attic. I have since ditched my Xbox controller for the X-52 and I'm glad it did. I probably wouldn't have started using a HOTAS if it wasn't modeled after the X-52, it just feels cool knowing I'm using basically the same controls as my CMDR in Elite.
I freaking loved my T1600M, it was perfect for elite dangerous in my opinion. But... there seems to be a problem with the the twist axis. I did recalibrate it and it fixed the problem for about a week. But it died today. So I did some research and it seems to be a very common problem with the T1600M sadly. So don't get it, save your money for something better i'd say. It's such a shame tho, Thurstmaster seems to have alot of problem with quality control lately.
I've had the twist problem with mine, but I was able to fix it by opening the handle as much as I could without removing the trigger. Sprayed it with canned air to be safe and put in back together. I've had to do it a couple times but I haven't had any more issues so far
I know this is an old comment, but since it comes up with the Top Comments now, it is worth mentioning there are a couple very cheap fixes for the Z-axis issue.... by replacing the stock sensor with a Hall sensor, either with or without using 3D printed parts. Also, if you were to get the Hotas slider upgrades too, it totally transforms the whole setup to feel more high-end & makes it much better value for the total money.
You must have gotten a bad T16000m (RARE) - I have tried most too and it is excellent, you have 3 easy to reach buttons that can be used as shift so there is nothing you cannot map, even in VR and I don't even need to use any of the buttons on the stick base. I have a setup in an arcade room and have had dozens of people try out the sticks and almost all prefer the T16000m. The Throttle however needs to have a special non-binding grease to really shine (Nyogel 767A) and then it's smooth as butter. The paddles I just use to tab menu's so never an issue and the build quality I found on par or better than all other other plastic hotas's. The Wathog does not even have yaw so I never include that, it's nice but incomplete without major $$ and so out of the price range of others it's not even close to apples to apples. I found the Saitek / Logitech x series ok but often button placement was awkward, In fact I have a new x56 Rhino(New Gray/Black Logitech version even) collecting dust that is likely heading to ebay, for as cool as it is with the lights, switches and all the buttons it just is not as comfortable to me as the T16000M even though twice the price, I have average to maybe slightly above average size hands and the buttons are not where I feel they should be and this was pretty common among guests who have tried it. For the $112 U,S, Amazon has these for you cannot go wrong - I would suggest anyone looking try one of them, worst that can happen is you send it back, best that can happen - like me you get a better more comfortable setup and save $$ too - The build quality is fine on both throttle and stick but the grease will set you back about $25 and literally makes it so much better I do consider it almost mandatory bringing it's price to $137 but it's worth it. Of course as Exigeous mentions, your mileage may vary but quite opposite of my findings.
First I'm curious if you've owned/had every one of these to test for a few weeks like I did? Of course your opinion and nope, there was nothing 'wrong' with the 16000 I had, I just didn't care for it at all. The button layout on the stick is terrible (12 buttons on the base that are impossible to use if you have your left hand on the throttle) with only a single hat and the button layout on the throttle, save for the analog stick for thrusters was really uncomfortable for me. While I didn't grease the throttle, so fair enough, I couldn't get past how cheap and thin the base and plastics were for it. Again all taste - but realize when I compare these to things like the Warthog they are all HOTAS and I made it very clear you need pedals with the Warthog (which I'd run regardless as I WANT pedals). As I said it's all subjective - you'll find someone that loves one and hates another for every one - but as I said in the video for my money I'd get the X52 (specifically the Pro) every single time over the 16000M.
fair enough - I have had them all except the new logitech x56 for quite some time for obvious reasons - I have an "Arcade" room I put together a few years back complete with virtual pinball, mame machines and 2 VR racing / flight cabinets so my stuff gets tested by friends and family pretty often... I agree with you about the buttons on the base of the 16000m being awkward but I never use them as when possible I use a "shift" function if the game allows it which elite does in spades, so you have the 2 buttons on the throttle and the "click" of the analog on the throttle which can easily be used as "shift keys" so for example the hat on the stick can perform 16 different actions alone depending on which button you are holding on the throttle but I don't even need to get that extreme, I have the push on the analog I use along with the buttons on the stick and the 2x 4 ways on the throttle and I am not even really near capacity of that. The one you mention the x52 I did like about the same feel wise but after 3 of them having QC issues I gave up on it and like you I did not want to knock any so I did not mention that one.
I like the FCS, too, but it's way too light for desk use as shipped. It's nice that the slider runs metal-on-metal, but the extremely lightweight base makes the whole thing feel cheap.
Jimmy DaSquid not saying you're wrong at all, that's great you're loving it. But I would be curious what you'd think had you been able to fly them all for a few weeks like I did - that's where I put the T16000M last. The great thing is none of them are crap, these are just my opinions and by definition they are subjective. I did try to be as objective as possible however.
O7, CMDR Exegious. I was curious if there was any chance you might be able to do an updated comparison for HOTASes. Thank you. -CMDR Zane Kata (Edit: spelling)
I fly with an Xbox One controller and use my Logitech G27 pedals as yaw rudders and my H-Shifter for throttle positions. Had a wheel lying around anyways, figure I might as well bind some mappings to it. Works great!
Excelent video as usual. I have the t flight hotas since 2015 and it is an excellent product even after a year on my car trunk getting hit by things and moving around as I drive it still works today. But since 2018 I upgraded to the x52 pro version which is just a beast. Highly recommend both products
I use the legendary Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 and CH Products Pro Throttle. The Sidewinder does have twist and the forcefeedback does work to provide motorized resistance. It has to be plugged into a wall power socket on top of usb, but it truly is fantastic.
I own CH products and love them. however since the sticks have no twist you would need pedals for full control. ch stuff is expensive but to me it is worth it. Also there is a used market where you can save a few bucks.
Not the most expensive thing you can get, but definitely not entry level either. They are supposed to be very durable so you don't have to buy replacements in a very long while and if you buy used, it's more likely to be in decent condition as well.
I have owned a full CH Products setup (Flightsim Yoke, Fighterstick, Pro Throttle & Pro Pedals) for a few years now ... I really love their products and highly recommend them. They work really well and are made to last. PS: I used to have a Saitek X52 Pro ... urgh! ... I got so fed up with it's lack of precision, I threw it out the window one day in a fit of rage. I now stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it ... they only build cheap junk.
I completely agree on the CH Products. Their being made to last was why I purchased them. In my opinion, they're probably the best bang for your buck due to their longevity. I have the Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals for almost 4 years now. They've survived 4 moves as well as a stint in storage and they are still working well and as precise as the day I got them. I definitely recommend getting the pedals for YAW input. They also add 2 more axis's that can be used on top of YAW. Point being, if you want something to last and are fairly durable, they are your best bet from my experience so far. They may be plastic, but they are definitely a solid design and will last a long time.
I I had a ship I would actually ouse a combined setup. HOTAS for the flight controls, and M/KB for all the navigational stuff like menues, oh, and lots of stuff with touch.
I agree completely on the best budget option being the T.Flight Hotas. I used it for years, desipite the lack of a full 6 analog axis. However, I'd say I'd move the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS above the X52/X52Pro (I may be biased since I had an x52 that just died on me. From what I've seen here it is generally these Saitek joysticks that are regularly commented on having poor build quality compared to their price tags.) The Thrustmaster FCS wins out with better functions for a lower price for me. Just a few notes on the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS: The joy does have less than ideal buttons but I managed to get away from that by moving some less important - non combat - functions to the buttons on the base. The throttle acts up a bit indeed on the slide but if you adjust the tension screw to loosen it it becomes smooth. I'd love a 50% range detent but to get that I'd have to downgrade for the T.Flight Hotas or go way up in the price range for the Virpil products. The paddle is big but I use ot for SRV turning only - keeping the index finger ministick purely for thrusters. This way I can independently drive my SRV fully from the throttle while I aim the turret with my mouse. (Using a joystick for aiming like that is just super awkward for my brain). Overall I'd say the FCS is a better option than the X52/X52pro as these are more expensive, can have their electronics just die on the inside and still only have 5 analog axis since the ministick on most versions is aggressively only for moving the mouse pointer. Not sure if later generations changed that.
I accidentally posted my reply when I wanted a line break - hence the edit. Obviously I only have experience with the lower end of the spectrum you have tried. I should add that the weight is indeed a problem with the FCS and I am looking to sort that out but other than what I mentioned I am satisfied with the set up, more so than I was with my older series X52. Maybe in the long run I'll justify getting a Virpil set up.
From what I've heard, older X-52s are still going strong (or at least last a lot longer), it appears the Madcatz produced versions are the ones that started their unreliable reputation As for Logitech upgrading production, it seems they overhauled the X-56 to better standards, but since they didn't change the color during this change (I believe this change in internals occurred during the black/grey livery release. the black/blue version is definitely what was left of the Madcatz production, so stay away from those), the risk is that you are buying a Madcatz legacy product
I bought the X55 Rhino when ED was in Beta. Still have it now with over 1500hrs use. Still works w/o any issues and I love it. Essentially it's down to what you feel you can afford and feel comfortable with. If we all loved the same things life would be boring!
CH products, great great build quality despite the appearance. The throttle has 3 buttons perfectly placed for pip management, and the index finger hat is a nice reset for them. Side buttons are great for thrusters, and landing thrusters as well as assist toggle and FSD activation. the analog stick on the throttle is very useful for thrust and for tuning in the exploration tool set. The actual stick it's self has the same design the the higher priced, flashier models have so far as button placement. The mode switch doesn't have to be a mode switch. That said, you can have 3 different complete bindings if you wish and toggle through them. I just use one and Voice controls. In VR, you can't see what your controls look like and if the old school cosmetics of the CH is the only thing stopping anyone I would highly suggest looking past that. They are accurate, and very reliable. I have over 1k hours and counting on mine (500+ in elite) and they are rock solid. You also get a throttle dial on the joystick with a centering indent and a trim adjuster on the joy stick as well for your tilt and roll. I use the ped set as well, so if a twist stick is a must, maybe just check out the throttle. For pip button placement alone it's worth it heh.
By far the best comparison video I could find. Picked up the T.Flight HOTAS 4 for a marked up $100 (thanks Flight Sim and Squadrons). I actually didn't choose it for the lowest price, I chose it because you made a good point, it's the only one designed for lap use. Since I'll be playing in my room scale VR setup that lacks a desk or office chair it will probably be the best bet when playing from the couch.
I've been using the T-flight as my entry into simulator-style gaming, and it has seriously changed my experience with Elite Dangerous. Having played it since launch with keyboard, when I made the switch half a year ago I can say the difference is night and day. I am no Ace pilot, but using a hotas makes me feel like one. I have no experience with more expensive options, but I can only imagine they further enhance the range of options available. I still have some options mapped to the keyboard and use Voiceattack to make up gaps in convenient access. I strongly recommend anyone curious about HOTAS control for either E:D or games like Star Wars: Squadrons to pick one of these up. It is convenient, mostly plug-and-play and well-supported, and at the price point you really can't go wrong.
Great video as usual, although I strongly disagree on your evaluation of the thustmaster versus the x52. I ordered the x52 and returned it due to the poor quality of hardware and software, I tested the thrustmaster at frontier expo and found the build quality excellent for the price, and the precision is way better than the chproducts I have. I would have probably bought the thrustmaster, if it had been out when I made my purchase. I'm now saving for some awesome high end setup, warthog,virpil... something...
This is what I've heard repeatedly about the Saiteks. It sounds like a real crapshoot, where you don't know what you're going to get when you open the box.
This is actually a fairly recent development. Saiteks used to be very high quality until Mad Catz bought them out. Then their quality control hit rock bottom. Now we can only hope Logitech's acquisition can rectify this... but there's still lots of Mad Catz Saitek gear out in the wild.
Well like I said - some are going to say you're crazy and some will say I'm crazy, I could only go off what I felt having them each for a few weeks. To my hands the quality difference between the X52 and T16000M wasn't even close, didn't even feel in the same product category - and remember as a Warthog fan I love Thrustmaster (and have one of their wheel bases and multiple wheels too). For me I also really disliked the button placement on the FCS, the buttons on the stick base are unusable during flight (have to take your hand off to use them) and the layout and slider throttle to my hands were pretty terrible. The good thing is none of them are shit, it's a good time to be a HOTAS customer for sure (and thanks for the polite strong disagreement :D)
@@Exigeous - You really aren't qualified to make a video like this if you think picking the best HOTAS just means which one feels the best in your hands. There's so much more to it than that and your recommendations are embarrassing.
@@Exigeous I mean, I have to disqualify you on this one. I think you've been led by the touch and feeling and forgot that the t1600m has the same sensor as the Warthog, a top of the line hotas by the way, and the most important part, it has an analog joystick on the thruster that is basically a MUST have for any space sim that uses thrusters, the x52 dosn't have one. I do agree that the x52 looks and probably feels more premium, I personally would love to exchange my t1600m for an x52, but truth be told I won't because it's more expensive and it delivers less, plus the whole quality control problems and nightmare stories we hear about them. So yeah, I feel that this review lacked some objectivity and impartiality.
I have a traditional hotas with rudder pedals (an old x52 with even older thrustmaster pedals). I have thousands of hours using them for Falcon BMS flight sim. Arguably one of the best combat Sims out there. Works great for that! For elite dangerous, I use a combination of g600 mouse, razor tarterus v2, trackir, and voiceattack. It's 100% hands off. With yaw on mouse x, pitch on mouse y, and roll and throttle on keys on the Tartarus, aiming is much, much, easier than with stick, throttle, and pedals. Not even in the same universe. The mouse has 12 buttons and a ring finger button that allows for 24 total. I really only use the 6 buttons close to the front of the mouse, but 12 (using the ring finger toggle) is plenty.
Literally the only person I've ever heard/seen who shit on the 16000m. I actually prefer it to all other HOTAS which I have tried, meaning all of them from this video except the Virpil or VKBSim products. Warthog would beat it if it had twist yaw, as I can't stand pedals, and of course Warthog throttle is king. The Saitek products are pure garbage in my experience, though I'm told the quality has improved since Logitech took them over, mine were/are from the bad old days though.
Once a long time ago I owned CH products, but can't find them anymore here in Sweden. I had a throttle, stick and rudder pedals. This was the age before USB was invented, and we had to use gameports on the soundcard or PC.. And then a couple of years later, got my first Thrustmaster stick. The TopGun. Damn, that was a great stick! I even modified my own T1600m. Whilst doing it, I started to understand more and more about how it works. Most sticks use potentiometers to "measure" where you are. This stick actually use a magnet and a sensor. And it is so good, the throttle is a bit plastic.. But yes. It IS plastic. However, getting an extra X & Y mini stick is great.. Added an extra button and LED lights. Trying to get the throttle to "follow" the led lights, ranging from white, orange, red and green. Yeah the Saitek is a no-go. I have friends and read a lot of negative stuff about it. One is a someone who bought the Pro version and actually it started to malfunction within 2 weeks. He changed it 3 times total. After that he did as the rest, got something else.. Seems that Logi/Sai had some issues with the spring system. But the VIRPIL.. Something I really do want to have!
My first ever joystick was a Saitek, way back in 93ish and was USB1.0 or something, beat the crap out of all the opposition at that time. Such a shame that poor management led them down the road to ruins. And I am no fan of Logitech right now as my G920 wheel has not worked since I got it 5 weeks ago and Logi support lost, yes LOST 4 weeks of emails and correspondence, piss poor imo
I really loved my 16000M. If it had an extra hat and a thumb slide or hat, and a pinky trigger it would be perfect. 16000M Pro? Thrustmaster is so close to a perfect cheapish type controller. I sent it back for a x56 Logitech update model. Hopefully that one is OK!
@@leynadIX Do you use the "twist" function and if so how is it holding up? Apparently the longevity of this feature is chronically poor on the 16000. Curious as to your experience so far?
I 100% agree with your choice of the Warthog and VKBSim Mk4 pedals. Sure they're expensive. Sure I had to fabricate my own center detent for the throttle. Sure I had to build my own stick extension to fly helicopters in DCS, but if I had to do it all over again, I'd do exactly the same thing. Both kits are absolutely worth every penny.
Very weird you didn't like the T16000m. I went from an X-56 that I got for ~$350AUD and having the torsion spring in the stick snapping just over a year later. When I opened it up and had a look the torsion spring metal looked cheap as shit. This is in addition to a few other issues: namely, the stick being made for overly big hands, and a few times the calibration went wonky. I got a T16000m and for half the price it felt better, played better, and I haven't had any real problems with it.
That twist for yaw option is probably a good feature for space sims, but for aviation sims (especially the more "hard" variety), that's just a useless option and a liability, adding just one more thing that can brake. A large rocker with a hefty give is a must at a very least (and what gives the TWCS my personal thumbs up here) and full rudder pedals (if you can afford them and have the place to put them) are of course the preferred way to go. I'm still to find a stick that completely suits my needs. I run with the CH Fighterstick for now (the styling isn't an issue for me, as i have no stomach for futuristic designs anyway), mostly because it has more then enough HATs and buttons in a functional enough layout and a reputation for longevity. The Warthog would be a solid investment, but for me personally is an overkill. I get nothing out of the outer metal construction (same electronics as the T16000), the layout is a replica of an A-10 CAS plane (i plane i don't fly in sims, nor do i plan to) and the price is slightly prohibitive for a product that doesn't suit my needs. Had there been an F-14, F-15 or F-18 based stick of similar quality, i would have probably opted for it. My throttle choice is (as mentioned before) the TWCS (mainly for the reasons mentioned above), but also for the bang for buck ratio. Ideally, i would want a separable double throttle solution, but none exist right now, that feature a rocker rudder control at the same time and i have no room (nor will) to get full rudder pedals in near future. So this combination provides me with a nice mid range HOTAS for DCS and FSX. Again, for space sims, priorities are probably quite different.
I got the T.16000M specifically for playing Elite in VR and it's nearly perfect. Solid build, smooth analog, and enough controls that I can do everything I need to do in game by touch alone (obviously critical in VR) with extra controls left over. I have relatively small hands so I do have to reach a bit for the lower castle on the throttle, but that's set to wingman controls so I almost never need to use it. The buttons on the base of the joystick took a bit of practice to learn to hit without being able to see, but the pips in the buttons make identifying them by touch easy. To me, the paddles on the throttle are fantastic. I have them set for hyperspace/supercruise, scrolling through menu tabs, and SRV turret toggle/handbrake. It's easy to reach when I need it and completely out of the way when I don't. The Warthog is undeniably a fantastic setup with a great feel and built like a tank, but I found it too limited, particularly the lack of twist. Maybe outside of VR it's an acceptable option, but for me it was a no-go.
Super late comment, but I will recommend T.16000M simply due to the contact less HAL sensors for the base. These will outlast ANY mechanical resistance based sensors on other sticks simply due to the fact that they are contact less magnetic sensors. Traditional resistance based sensors will simply shred their surface over time, forcing more and more calibration cycles on you until they die on loss of contact when a gap develops on the resistance rails. And I also say this as owner of Thrustmeter Warthog that also uses these, but if I were on budget I would go for the T.16000M simply for the above reason.
The HAL's are ok but the rest of the joystick in my case was thrashed after the first battle in Elite after using the twist in anger. I'm now buying the Warthog as it is made of steel and has HAL's as well on the latest version. All this tech is pretty useless when the stick is dangling over to one side as mine is now. TBF I talking about the original "green" version. Don't know if the Orange one is any better but since no updates were mentioned about the internals I doubt it is.
I had a T16000M (just the stick) and brought a X-52 (non-pro) only to be disappointed. The X-52 has a horrible stick. The buttons are fine but the actual stick has a horrible deadzone/accuracy issues and feels terrible to control. There are some after market mods that you can do with magnets that apparently help though (and maybe they have fixed it somewhat in newer versions). The T16000M is a decent quality on the actual stick. The thumb buttons seemed fine to me although the base buttons require you to remove a had so they suck. What I ended up doing was using the X-52 throttle with the T16000M stick which works well although there isn't quite enough buttons for ED. With combo buttons it works well and I don't have to use the base buttons. Remember you can use the HAT's as buttons. Still the X-52 throttle is ok but still far from perfect. I had to open it up and physically remove the annoying haptic 'dent' at the halfway mark. Also the throttle has 3 sliders, 1 is useful for zoom/FSS tuning in ED but there is no use for the other 2 in ED. It also has an annoying thumb mouse which isn't much use either (you might be able to turn it into another HAT in software though, unfortunately last time I checked it seem the current version of the software might have been missing the feature. The thumb button placement isn't great either. The hat switch is great though If you are looking at the X-52 series, defiantly get the X-52 PRO not the basic X-52 since apparently it has a much better stick. Opinion seems to be the X-56 is worse because of the silly pinky trigger and general quality but I haven't tried it. As for the higher end stuff, personally I couldn't live without twist on the stick, I don't want pedals taking space under my desk and like to put my legs up, but I can see the appeal for a more 'realistic' or flightsim cockpit setup.
have an old x55, and its LITTERED with problems. the software is highly dated, the drivers have issues recognizing both throttle and stick at once..... and lets get to the fun part. saitek/madcatz are now owned by logitech. there will be no support or profile releases for anything new in the foreseeable future even though i purchased it just a year or two earlier. they will happily drain you of your money, come out with something new, then stop supporting your product. if you think this is isolated? think again. i've owned an array of logitech over the years and they are pleased that their products fail after warranty. mouse, 3 years, kb 2yrs, speakers 2.5 yrs, and the list goes on to now include an x55 that is unusable. tldr? don't buy anything logitech makes, you're going to regret it.
I used to have a Thrustmaster Hotas X for starters, but after that died, I've selected the CH Combatstick matched with the Thrustmaster TWCS, just because I fell in love with the paddle in front of the throttle, which is IMHO the best yaw control without having to bother with pedals...
My x52 pro finally bit the dust the other day after roughly 6 years of use. After such a long time I was very comfortable with the button assignments and feel so I decided to get another one :)
LOVE MY CH PRODUCT'S HOTAS! Been using for 20 years, but think I'll invest in a dual-stick set up with VIRPIL. Will have to do some youtube research on how the Dual Stick is better than a traditional HOTAS.. GREAT CHANNEL!!
Have a look at Noobifier's Star Citizen channel, great content and he flies dual stick. It's not necessarily "better" but it does give you very precise thruster control as that's what the left stick does. For me that's not critical as I'm always full thruster in combat anyway.
I purchased the X56 Logitec about a year ago. I returned it to amazon. Not only are the thumb dials on the throttle cheap and "flexy" but the whole thing was stiff. Even when the tension was turned all the way down you could not quickly throttle up and down. There are guides on how to take it apart and remove grease and stuff, but yeah, no thanks on the voiding of a warranty on a $200(ish) dollar setup. The stick was great. Lots of buttons to bind. But the yaw (twist) was horrible and there was no adjusting it. I can see some people liking it, because it's the "Top of the line" Logitec E-peen. But I personally don't recommend it unless you're willing to rip the thing apart out of the box and cut springs and remove tension disks and lubricate it with something better than the gunk they use.
I've had my CH setup since 2009 with no issues. I simply love my CH Products it. I returned the Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS (predecessor to the Warthog) because it was simply way to stiff to fly with for me. With the Fighter stick, Pro Throttle, Pro Peddles, and Multi Function Panel all play nice together in one ecosystem and operate under the CH-Products Control software making it very easy to use once you take the time to program it. The power of that programing system is awesome. Additionally, the CH Products setup does have a programmable mode switch on the Throttle that can allow you to switch between 3 different modes, and you can set up a button to act as a kind of "shift key" so that each button can be assigned 2 functions in each mode. This means that each button or hat direction can have a total of 6 different functions. This doesn't count the 25 to 50 buttons that you can have on a single MFP in the CH ecosystem and the ecosystem will allow you to have multiple MFP's, Fighter Stick's, Throttles, etc. Honestly, I'm not sure what the limit of the software is.
able724 Could not agree more. Great products. My 4 ch products are from 2005 and they work like a charm in elite and every other sim I have thrown at them. What one can do with programming is mind blowing...but you don’t have to.
Yup, ditto to all the above able724! Had my Fighterstick/Pro-throttle/Pro-pedals for a long time now. Tough, no nonsense hardware with an incredibly flexible programming software GUI. I have yet to find a function that I could not replicate with the powerful, yet simple, scripting language. What I liked best is that the hardware was versatile enough and, at the same time, generic enough that I could use it for flying modern aircraft and WWII warbirds. Sadly CH Products has been somewhat quiet for a while now ... I have not seen any new products aimed at the PC gaming crowd for several years.
From what I've read about them over the years, they like making the stick but don't really like to bother with marketing and all that. These flight simulator controls are small fry for them/their parent company. Making industrial joysticks is where the real money comes from. I have a CH HOTAS and pedals and I love it. Very functional and durable. The software is very powerful too even if it looks like it was designed in the 90s. Hey, if it works, why bother messing with it.
I came from the X-55 which was a little disappointing and switched to a Thrustmaster Warthog with additional TM T.Flight Rudders and TM Multi-Function-Displays. This setup is extremely good for VR in my opinion, as you can identify buttons on the MFD and Throttle with ease, without looking and the rudders compensate for the missing z-axis on the stick, while providing extra control, when in the SRV for example. Excellent video by the way. The overview and info provided should point any buyer in the right direction, where to look and on what to keep an eye on. Well done!
I must admit i think your a little overly harsh on the t16000m, while i agree it's a HOTAS for those on a budget here in the UK at least it represents the best value for money over here as there is a £50 price difference at retail between this and the x52 HOTAS which is significant for us on a budget and compared to the t flight HOTAS is has many more options for configuration. I still feel the t16000M is the best value for money for the lower end of the price range
And at that price it certainly makes it a better deal but I still would choose the X52 every time as for a PC gamer that's not a huge difference for something you're going to use for many hundreds or even thousands of hours. I'm sure many are very happy with the T16000M but those also have never used all the sticks in the review which is where my opinion comes from.
@@Exigeous can u stop riding the x52's nuts. i own one and had had to go out and buy a t16000m because the x52 is so inaccurate it was almost unusable.
Don't forget the VKB Gladiator MK II. More for WW2, but still a very affordable at $100 option and great quality for the price. The only "budget" stick from a really good brand, with quality to match. It's got a minithrottle on it which is surprisingly good and twist so you don't need pedals. It's the only stick with magnetic sensors on all axes (even twist yaw). If I got an entry level stick now, I would get that one over the x52 (with it's terrible software, annoying buttons and mediocre precision).
I would like to point out that the X-56 now has an updated version that is of a much higher build quality. This new version can be distinguished by the black and grey styling instead of the blue. Id recommend testing the new stick yourself as i love the new X56. Logitech really did a great job fixing the saitek screw-up with button quallity improvements and general sturdyness and feel upgrades
I can confirm the plastic they use is exactly the same, and weak AF. A simple move forward the other day and by right side throttle just fell off. Tip to anyone with an X56, if you don't use both throttles, tape them together. The force puts far too much stress on the right stick because of that silly little lock, it adds a slight twist that weakens the crappy plastic they use.
@@DiggitySlice It's a design flaw dude, the catching pin to lock them together, is off center by design, it only goes into the left stick a few mm's, so it pushes the right stick with a slight twist motion as it does it. I've always had it on the mildest friction and been careful with it. But after the grease settles, it adds friction for the first use again. And you can feel the slight twist, as they both do not lock tightly enough to negate the separate movement. It needs to go right into the center of the the right stick not to cause stress on the plastic. It's been used everyday for about 7 months though. Although the backside buttons of the throttle flicker the connection after about a few weeks, the swivel buttons are terrible, and finding the central notch is impossible during game play. The slider switch refuses to bind to anything in Elite so I've never used it Stick is rock solid though, hasn't skipped a beat. Bad hat switch placement but can't complain about it's build quality. I thought it would be the first to go, not the throttle. The X56 looks good, feels good, but is not good. One would assume "1.5mm plastic" would not be used as the throttle supports? A small metal bar would have protected it better. Granted I was mega pissed when I made that comment, it had just broken when I had sat down for a game of Elite with my cousin on the other side of the planet. I lifted the ship, retracted gear and inched forward towards the mailslot, and the right throtlle just fell off into my hand lol. Been playing the night before and it was fine. I later fixed it, and how I know the small twist killed it? Without any glue I positioned it back onto the clean brake, and then duct taped that sucker to the left throttle along the join line of the two throttles, front and back. The pressure was now uniform, and it moves both sliders without issue. So if you don't really ever use both throttles as I didn't, it would add to the lifespan if you prevented any movement at all between the throttles, by just a small strip of strong tape. The whole Logitech RMA process is a frustrating mess, so I'm going to just have to eat the $250 I payed for it. But I'm eyeing up a Warthog setup, not a lot of complaints about those, but they are pricey AF. I'd give the X56 a decent 6/10 before it broke, but after seeing how it's made, I couldn't honestly recommend it to anyone.
Another thing to mention in the video is that top tier hardware (VKB MCG pro, VPC t50 or TM WH) is a single purchase in a lifetime, unless you become sort of a collector like myself. I have the MCG Pro, the virpil throttle (2018 both), the Warthog (since 2011), and the Cougar (2003). All of them work without problems. All of these are in the $300+ league, but I bought them once, and I cannot even remember the number of PCs with further graphics card and memory upgrades they were connected to. Let’s say 4 year lifetime for a PC with an update (second to third year).... More than $6000, fact, so make it 20 times the investment, and, save the current machine, they are out of service. I had as well an X45 (2002), the predecessor of the x52, but they play in a lesser league, with my CH pro pedals (gameport->cougarized) and a Saitek’s one (usb). The only advantageous point is the lesser weight, that makes them really portable, and the Z axis, so no pedals required, so even more portable. But forget about the price, they last much less, and there’s no comparison in look’n’feel. About the pedals, the ones mentioned above are “good enough” for me, so not feeling to make the move into TM-TPR nor Slaws nor Crosswind (You didn’t talked about propper pedals in order to complete the setups).
WARTHOG! done. Actually CH Products are very good for a cheaper stick. Yes they look cheap and plastic but I will tell you I got my CH Pro Pedals for Christmas of 1997 with the new connector called a USB and yep they still work.
they actually gave me a free replacement potentiometer for my pedals even though they were 3 years past warranty a thrustmaster took 3 months and a lawsuit threat to fix a issue that emerged 3 months after purchase ( buttons went out due to a missoldered wire) amyway best company in my mind
Honestly, I had every Stick there is except that Virpil Stuff. I can tell you a Brief History of my Choices: At the Beginning I played IL-2 Forgotten Battles online and competitive. The Stick I swore my virtual Life on was the Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 1. I also had the X-52´but preferred to use the Throttle of the X-52 together with the MS Stick. Which in my View was the best Combination. I also bought the Saitek Rudders and TM F-16 Stick/Throttle. Later even the Warthog Stick and Throttle. As well as the Rhino. TM Metall Sticks are cool but the Potentiometers are not made for strong Fingers. Mine broke within a Week. I still have them in Storage. I always thought for a Twist Stick the X-52 had not enough grip to use the Twist while working the Hatswitches and the upper Buttons - So I made my own Handrest and screwed it on. After my MS SideWinder FF finally broke the X-52 with that Handrest Mod is my goto for every damn Space/Flightsim and even if I tried different more expensive Stuff the X-52 is my Fallback and stays the best Option. I broke at least 5 of those Sticks and some even came broken in the Box, but if you got a perfect one and be carefull with him - You have a Option for many Years. Some do not like the massive movement the stick has but for a big Hand like mine it allows me very precise Inputs. I never liked those Pedals - They are too slow in movements that allow you getting out or preventing a stall in a WW-2 Fighter in IL-2! It helped me immensly to become a real Pro in the Focke Wulf. That plane has very strong Rudders and so it allows some amazing Rudderwork in Maneuvers where you normally Stall and Crash with other Planes. Elite is very much configured for the X-52, especcially if you don't use the Software for it! I believe that they used that Stick alot in the production of that Sim.
I am looking for a new HOTAS to upgrade from my dual T.16000 sticks. I was debating warthog, virpil and x52, but I think I will choose x52 because it is a lot cheaper, it has some cool input options, it looks like a gutamaya HOTAS, the other options don’t have a rotation axis, and it has a safety cover which the virpil throttle sadly got rid of in the new model. I love safety covers for some reason. It just gives me a lot more immersion for having to make sure I want to press what is under the cover (I don’t know if there is a self destruct or reboot and repair keybind, but silent running could go under the cover for example). So I will probably get x52, do you agree?
@@jdl2327 Remember NOT to install the Software that is included. You do not need it and it also is a waste of time because all Sims now know the X-52 and you can better configure all your Buttons Ingame. Also if you use the Ingame Config while using the Joystick Software, some Buttons won't work.
x52 has a lot more than one throttle button, and i have no idea what the slide is saying about the stick but it has 12 buttons (13 if you count the secondary press on the main trigger, but it's not too useful in my experience). there are no switches on it, and the mode knob can't be used in-game. The throttle also only has 2 knobs and a slider; the knob on the left is only for adjusting how stiff it is. unsure if all of this is applicable to the pro, but since you're claiming to have tested it i imagine it's different.
I had an X52pro but it was beginning to fall apart (lots of squeaks and groans) so I bought a CH products stick and throttle. It's rock solid and after thousands of hours it feels about the same as when I bought it. I'd recommend CH products over and X52 any day.
Yeah, they are pricey. I managed to find a sweet deal on ebay where they were basically half price. Otherwise I would have had a hard time justifying the cost. You're right that it looks a bit old fashioned too. Also, the throttle is really designed for people with large hands. But the build quality is amazing and the included software is pretty useful too.
Exactly that. I have the CH hotas too and the joystick on the throttle is amazing. Was one of the reasons I bought it. Unfortunately the control software does not work for me under Windows 10 anymore. Makros and mode switches were awesome in the software. Edit ok got it to work. Just open the windows store when the buttons are greyed out
I'm definitely appreciate your candor about these items. There's alot of haters about the logitech, in which I was leaning towards. If there's any additional information it will be appreciated.
*I found some aircraft types only partially supported among current products.* As of November 2018 nobody manufactures a counterpart of the Dunlop roll/pitch column used by the Grumman Iron Works (F9F, F11F, A2F, F14F) in addition to British aircraft manufactures - the column is pivoted at the base for pitch, midway up for roll. Nor does anybody manufacture a satisfactory collective-pitch arm for helicopter apps, although the VIRPIL® MongoosT-50® southpaw version would be a satisfactory collective grip. The Logitech HOTAS stick grips (applicable to the in-house G940 Flight System as well as the MadCatz-developed X52/PRO and X56) are panned by real-life pilots for switch placement inconsistent with any plane or helo outside of experimental builds. VIRPIL now supports the THRUSTMASTER® HOTAS WARTHOG® stick grip on the MongoosT-50 base/gimbal unit. For cutting-edge Russian machinery, the ideal sim stick grip isn't yet in production, but it would pack two analog ministicks (both with push select), two four-way and two five-way switches, two folding two-stage triggers of different lengths and swing arcs (àu OKB Kamova), and five pushbuttons in specific locations.
Upgraded from the T-Flight HOTAS X to the T16000M FCS (with TFRP pedals). I don't like the ergonomics of the TWCS throttle, and I'm disappointed with the button placement on the T16000M, though I love how it's ambidextrous. I also play Farming Simulator, and a dual stick forestry setup is choice. Plus, Thrustmaster's TARGET software scratches me right where I itch. But since I'm not using any of the advanced features TARGET has to offer for Elite, other than some slight custom curves on the TWCS paddles, I'm seriously tempted to spring for an X52 or X52 Pro. I'm a lifelong Logitech user, and I'm glad to see them putting out better products than they did before the Saitek acquisition. The X52 throttle looks like it's a million times more comfortable than the TWCS throttle. Why couldn't Thrustmaster just have kept the same sort of contours that they had on the T-Flight HOTAS X? I liked that throttle, even if the joystick as a whole sucked out loud.
By twist do you mean turning the ship left/right on the Z axis right? If so it only has lateral movement? I'm just curious I'm not too familiar with this stuff but I am interested
@@Kurkess I see, after seeing a few yt videos and some more research, and being left handed I'm likely just gonna settle for something low-mid-range with twist and learn to fly right handed :/
@@Boba_Brett13 yeah I ended up going duel stick with x52 and tm1600. The throttle for the x52 while nice, I couldn't get a good feeling for using a button swap to make the throttle go in reverse. I would have to add peddles or go hosas. and since hosas was cheaper I went for it and I love it!
After some many hours with warthog you know, that it does not have any issues with potentiometers as it uses HALL effect instead of classic sensor and it remains very precise. Sadly you did not mentioned that so criticised T16000 also uses this technology and after year or two this stick will be superior over rest which will wobble a lot. Though it is worth mentioning that T16000 uses classic potentiometer for yaw axis and this one becomes loose just after few months of heavy usage. But still, you can't know it after 2 weeks of testing all of sets.
Disagree. The t16000 on my desk got sloppy after the first serious fight and is almost useless for ED right now unless I set a huge dead zone. Will never get near to them anymore.
I still rock the Saitek X45, can get one now for $90. I think it is better than everything else for Elite. X52 is very similar, and if I were to upgrade it’s the only option. I don’t like the direction Logitech took with their line of hotas. Can’t justify upgrading when the X45 works so well. I haven’t heard of the Virpil, but was looking for a quality Hotas, like the Warthog, but more buttons and hats on the stick. Thanks for the suggestions!
You should update by mentioning that Logitech redesigned the X56 with much better internals that what Saitek offered. Also, you might confuse people by including the "Blue" colored X56 (which are still sold on Amazon), since those are the older Saitek models and god awful. The newer "Gray" colored sticks are the ones made by Logitech.
That is an excellent overview. I went from X52 (which I still have) to the Rhino (returned it as the main fire button stopped working) and eventually to the Warthog plus Saitec rudder pedals. What my concern was with these HOTAS was the mounting issues. How to fix it to the desk? With the X52 and Rhino (this was a must as the throttle was very stiff) I had to screw it on a wooden board. The bord I clamped to the desk. That takes a little time for setup ervery time I played Elite. So after reimbursing the Rhino I made the decision to purchase the Warthog. Expensive but I love it since. No need to screw it down. Just wipe the rubber pads on the bottum with a wet cloth. This way the stick to the desk in particular during a fight! With the foot pedals this is a perfect setup. As you rightly point out in your video! NEvertheless I should mention that the red paint is gone at the main trigger button.
Don't forget the VKB Gladiator Mk.II. It comes in both Pro ($249) and non-pro ($129) versions. The non-pro is an excellent stick for Elite, because it has twist, solid VKB quality, is affordable, and has a TON of buttons on the base, plus it comes with a small throttle on the base as well. You could (theoretically) get away with just using that for one-stick Elite... but I wouldn't recommend it. It's a bit sparse on on-stick buttons, but beggars can't be choosers with a VKB stick at that price. It feels good to fly with, and there's not a lot of crap that gets in my way. I've had that stick paired with the CH Throttle for about a year now. The CH Throttle is "okay," but if I don't give it plenty of deadzone room for the sloppy encoders, it can lose calibration fast. Also, 8 bit encoders? 1996 called, they want their encoders back. It's really not very accurate if you figure in the deadzone overhead. I just got in the Virpil Mongoos T-50 Throttle to replace it, and it's a beast. 16-bit encoders on every axis for starters. It feels much less toy-like, and more sim-like. (Still not quite real, but a lot closer.) The controls are just buttery smooth, with adjustable detents, and you can even change the "tightness" of the throttle itself. One downside is catching it on the Virpil shop. It's like trying to catch a unicorn with chopsticks. They go up and sell out in about 3-4 hours. Also, with shipping to the US, it was a little over $400. Shipping alone was $70. OUCH. Also, Elite does NOT support more than 32 buttons per controller, so now I have to set up some virtual controllers just to get all of the buttons on this thing configured. And FDev admits that it's an issue with the game, and it doesn't look like they plan to fix it... just as they increase the bindings in the latest beta to 268. Yay. I'd love to see you do a vjoy or similar tutorial for cramming a bunch of HOTAS buttons into Elite.
Thank you for the guide . I do have a question..... all the research I did when choosing a Hotas there were some issues about reliability. In two of your recommendations were cited for having poor reliability and quality control issues. Have you experience any issues with any of the joysticks that you’ve used ?
Remember somewhere you'll read someone telling you every one of these are total pieces of shit and to avoid, etc. Personally I've only owned the Warthog (and a 52 many many years back) so I could only go on what they felt like in my hands for the 2 weeks or so I had them. None of them are junk at all and while each one could fail in days, weeks, months or years that's very hard for me to say - I can only say what they felt like in my hands which is where my comments come from.
one thing I have noticed with the Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X is that the button markings WEAR OFF very quickly. I am by no means a fullday/night player, yet the markings on the buttons started to worn off after few weeks, while playing casualy 2-6 hours a day Elite Dangerous. as a side note, I have come across a lot of negative QQ about how short the connecting cable is between the thrust and stick when the hotas get's separated, so just to correct this QQ nonsense going around the globe, the lenght of the cable is around 50-60cm, which is not the longest cable but definitely enough long for having a comfortable split-setup. As for the worn off buttons (and by that I mean the colour/marking) you can simply put a stickers on them as a replacement, or paint them with whatever that gonna last.
this excellent review helped me choose! Tnx and kudo's to CMDR Exi.... thought the background music(?) was waaaay too loud and somewhat annoying however
I have the T1600m FCS HOTAS and moved to it from the T.Flight HOTAS X. I would have bought the X52 but, at the time I was looking, the quality control was a hot topic to say the least. The X55/56 (quality control issues aside) and Warthog are really nice sticks, but my hands are on the small side and it's hard to use them. The I like the throttle, with no issues for 2 years now. I only use the paddles for forward/backward navigation in the menus but I find the layout of the rest of the buttons and the hats to be great for me and I've refined my layout over time to really work well. My current layout has all the functions I need quickly on the throttle except for the triggers, pips, target lock and next fire group that are on the stick. I have setup curves on the 4 way analog mini stick on the throttle and I really love rip around outposts using the thrusters. The stick is way better than the T.Flight HOTAS X as it is very accurate and with the TARGET software I can really work the curves to give me great control. Button refinement helps make this stick work well for me and it is just the right size for my hand. The base mounted buttons are pretty useless, on the right side they are used to deploy hardpoints, lights, cargo bay system and gal map and one recenters the HMD. All functions that are not repetitive or overly time critical so I it works well without interrupting the flow of using the stick or I can activate the hardpoints with my pinky easily. On the left side I don't use them at all as it would interrupt my hand being on the stick. But I love the stick. To get around the limited amount of usable buttons I use an Orbweaver since I already owned one. I place it along side the throttle just like the setup in Elite and works very well, the buttons are easy to find even in VR. I have been using one of these (originally a Nostromo from Belkin, that was made by Razor) since playing Battlefield Bad Company 2 and COD Modern Warfare and love them. I can't play an FPS shooter without one and it really adds to the feel of immersion in Elite. I also have the TFRP pedals which I like quite a bit as well. I was starting to get some issues with carpal tunnel using the twist on the sticks (that dang SRV really tore me up!!!) so I decided to get a set of pedals to see if it would help and it did. I didn't want to spend a heap on pedals, in case I didn't like them or it took too long to get used to them, but I took to them like a duck to water. I've had these longer than the HOTAS , and they've held up well. Some people say they are cheaply made, but I haven't an issue with any of them for 2 years now. I feel I've gotten my monies worth out of them, anyway, good review, I enjoyed it.
Also worth mentioning is that the t16000 also has a bundle that gives you pedals for a pretty decent price, so the t16000 is very nice for those first getting into the game.
Bought a Logitech X56. I gave it a go since Logi has taken over for Saitek. Read alot about these products when it was "MadCatz" and they failed regularly, but apparently Logitech has sorted out much of the problems. Took it back to the shop the day after. Reason was the rudder-axis was not working properly. I now own a VKB Gladiator and I am very pleased with it. Doesn't feel cheap as the X56 did. It actually has good ergonomics unlike the X56 which has the most awkward button setup on top of the stick. Can't reach all buttons without lifting my hand if I don't want to touch all the other hat-keys while doing so. My VKB does not have 100 4-way hats, but for the lack of such buttons, I just buy myself a good throttlequadrant with such buttons instead. Be shure to read reviews on common failures on the sticks and be shure to try them out to see if it fits your hand before buying it
Wow! we completely disagree 😂 Had the x52. flimsy and uncomfortable. Had the x56. flimsy, uncomfortable and super hard throttle. Loved the t.flight! Cheap, comfortable and functional. Doesn’t require a reverse button. Now I’m on the t.16000m fcs purely for the comfort of the stick. Guess we got different hands, as no “saitek” product ever fit me :)
Yep, as I said it's a very subjective thing to try to review - and to be clear my main issues with the T16000M were the throttle (flimsy, terrible button layout, hated the slide mechanism) and the placement of the buttons on the base of the stick, which are basically unusable. I was a fan of the T.Flight for the money for sure.
Ye, the T16000m is basically down to comfort for me :) The setup is far from great. the x56 was disappointing tho. As for everything that relates to ergonomics, it’s down preference. You can recommend a e.g. a mouse for tech, value and functions, but it doesn’t matter if it don’t fit your hand :) thanks for great content!
You're most welcome, thanks for the kind words and debate. I do totally agree on the X56 and comfort/ergonomics - I liked how many inputs it had, especially the throttle, but found it possibly the last comfortable and the second cheapest feeling. No question to my hands the X52 was the most comfortable with the Warthog being a very very close second.
The t16000m was originally built as a stand alone ambidextrous stick, in which case the symetrical button layout makes a lot of sense, the throttle, i like it, but the one button that i use for reverse is hard to reach, the paddles i find seem to really suit navigating the in ship panels but serve no other purpose in elite.
@@davidpritchard7802 i use the paddles to thrust forward and backward when im docking or dogfighting, its analogue so its great for small trotle inputs
I have the T16000 Hotas and like it for the most part. I don't find the paddles on the throttle to be odd, however, I think they should have angled the side with the thumb buttons on it to make them easier to reach. That said, I have not tried others. This one was the right price purchase was made on that and reviews vs the x56
Exactly, and in 16 more they'll still be working. I think I got mine in 2009, there aren't even wear marks from close to daily usage. It's a shame to think someone would pass on them because they don't have gaudy racing stripes and other flashy non-sense, or because "plastic". They make all their gaming peripherals using the same industrial materials that go into the various controls they build for heavy machinery operation. If I recall, I believe CH will replace them if they ever fail, or maybe I'm thinking about how they would convert a set to usb for free if you sent it to them. Though, I do wish there were some toggle switches built in, lol.
@@a10miletooth Only reason I passed on the CH set was that they didn't have enough controls for my liking. For me, the less I have to use the keyboard, the more immersed I am in the game.
@@ChozoSR388 you can set them up using the software where every button can have up to 3 functions. That's 45 buttons each not including the 8-way hats. What could you be doing that requires more than that?! In games like E:D where a combination key press can be mapped it isn't necessary to use the software at all. Were you not aware of the software or just prefer having more physical things to put your fingers on? Totally understandable if that's the case, I've considered getting a button box (or two) for that very reason.
Yes every hat on the Ch system is basically 4 buttons. The amount of buttons is ridiculous and you can control elite dangerous completely in vr without keyboard or voice commands.
Is it the same model that's shown in the video? I'm looking at my first hotas to get ready for SW Squadrons, Star Citizen, and getting back into ED, and it seems CH comes highly recommended but I want to make sure I get the right one.
Surprising to hear a recommendation of the X52 (which has a history of poor quality control) over the T16000m (which has a history of high accuracy for the price).
X52 is my favourite cause of the layout and design... Quality is bad tho. Especially on potentiometers. Using electrical cleaner helps, but it shouldn't be like that.
@@ronaldwatson1951 personally, x52 is my choice. Even with the poor build quality. It's more about your preference. :) There is no right stick for everyone
And I agree - it's funny as someone will tell you every single one that I listed "sux ass", etc. as you're almost always only going to hear from the guys who are unhappy. I know guys that have had X52s for 10+ years and had a Warthog break the first day - when so many are made someone is gonna be unhappy aren't they?
I owned the X55 and X56 and loved them, but i could not recommend due to the poor build quality, in the space of over a 14 months I had to return the products on 3 occasions due to dead switches or axis issues. I gave up with this model and and bought the Warthog, other than lack of z axis twist I can find no faults with it. I'm yet to purchase rudders and rely on a button to change the yaw and roll function
Wow, really, that surprises me given how much combat you do - I'm telling ya man get on it and get yourself some real pedals. I promise you that you'll be glad you did as I couldn't imagine not having them. If you're on a budget the older Thrustmasters are okay, those new ones look great but for $500 are they kidding? For less you can get the MFG Crosswinds or the "Slaw Device" pedals which both rock. I love my T.Rudders but would probably get one of the others if I was buying now.
First I had some ghost button issues with my old X52. Shortly followed by some broken cables inside the throttle. To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare. So, I bought the X56 with the hope that Logitech improved the quality. Now, I have what they call a tennis arm because of the very resistant z-axis of the stick. Besides, the throttle of the X56 is also much harder to slide, much propable because Logitech increased the resistance in order to prevent the cables to be bend to fast. I like the design, the buttons are all at the right places and I was hoping that the X56 will turn the trick. But I cannot really recommend it to anyone and might have to grasp the nettle and buy rudders.
@@noamc8417 "To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease *and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare* " ...I did on my X-55 throttle which started failing after about 250 hours of use, and I had no intention to do it again after I found another axis failing again after 3 months Luckily Virpil came out with their new throttle at that time, so had a good excuse to upgrade my HOTAS, now only to replace my combat rudders, where one of the brakepedal pots already failed after never using it
My story is almost the same. Got an x56, returned it 3 weeks later as the twist axis wouldn't return to center, 2 buttons on the stick and 3 on the throttle never worked. Terrible build quality. Got the warthog instead. Been using it 2 years without any issues.
I'm absolutely torn between the X52 Pro and the T16000M FCS. I hear so many good things and bad things about both constantly, it's really hard to make a choice. Anyone got any advice?
@@mithrandir7372 I ended up choosing the T16000M FCS and couldn't be happier. The reason for this is both the X52 Pro and T16000M have a track record for breaking after a while, or just having issues in general, but while the X52 usually becomes completely unusable, the only issues the T16000M seems to have is the yaw stopping to work. So I felt the Thrustmaster was a worthier risk. And frankly, I've had it for 3 months and it's absolutely great. And the throttle is amazing, so if after a year the joystick does break, I can just buy a new joystick from VKB or something and keep the throttle. I haven't really had any issues, and I totally recommend it! The only thing that made me slightly sad was that I do prefer the design of the X52 a little more, but I play in VR most of the time anyway so it doesn't matter. I've played Flight Simulator 2020, Elite Dangerous and Star Wars Squadrons with it, and so far it's been great with all of them. Sorry for the huge wall of text, but I hope this helps you!
@@drozthewolf Thanks for the information, surely I also end up choosing the t16000 for the same reasons as you, I also play the same games as you, so you helped me make the final decision. Thanks again, and sorry for google translation
I totally disagree ... the X52 is pure junk, it will quit on you within a year and drive you crazy with it's lack of precision. Seriously, save your money a bit longer and buy a better quality product ... stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it, you can thank me later. PS: It's CH Products for me ... perfect in terms of price/quality and really up there in terms of precision and durability.
I have used my CH Stick, Throttle and pedals for about 8 years now, and this setup still works as smooth and reliable as the first day i plugged them in. Computers, screen, mouse and keyboards have come and gone but CH prevails over time and use.
I agree. I bought an X52 a few months ago and have never been able to get it to work. When I plug it in, the mouse pointer rises to the top of the screen and stays there. On the few occasions that the mouse behaved, the stick would suddenly reverse it's pitch programming - makes flying a helicopter pretty tough. It may be a software problem. I can't tell. But out the door it goes - pure junk. Now it's hard to know what to buy. $500 is a lot for a game controller.
Have had my Saitek X52 Pro for at least five years. Purchased two; one for me and one for a housemate, as he didn't have money to burn. He had a switch problem within two weeks (although I never checked whether he was trying to unsuccessfully reassign the "i" button, which I also have never been able to use for anything). Mine still works perfectly.
i owned 3 different sets.. the one i still love and use is the Thrustmaster T16000m FCS! we see ..not everyone has the same taste .. builtquality is excelent maybe you got a bad model.. anyways Good video!
I've been flying the X-56 for a while, and I love it. May be I got lucky but I have 0 QC issues. The 2 extra analog sticks make thrust super precise and landing very easy, and the plethora of buttons make VR flight a breeze
For anyone thinking of shelling out over 100$ on a fancy new Hotas, you should know that I've been using a keyboard and Logitech extreme 3D pro happily for about 2 years. Want to know how much the joystick cost me? $2.50. Yep. I got it at a thrift store for extremely cheap a long time ago and have had no issues whatsoever. Before you go out and empty your wallet for immersion, check your local savers and you might just find something that will work surprisingly well for the price of a snickers.
I use the x52 Pro and i've had it 2 years no problems. I did mod it by adding neodymium magnets to make it more sensitive so I don't have to move it around very much at all. The end result is that I don't put any strain on it and it works really well. Can't imagine what I'd replace it with if it broke. (fingers crossed) If only the Warthog had twist! The Virpil stuff looks NUTS!
I got an x52 used on facebook for 80 bucks and then I got elite dangerous and voice attack. In vr this is the game I have dreamed about since I was a kid .
This is one of those subjects that make horse races interesting. Ask any 2 HOTAS users and you're likely to get 3 opinions. My first HOTAS was the T-16000 which I quickly considered a mistake. Weak materials, poor design and more than half the buttons are essentially unusable. Why put buttons on the stick base AT ALL? The point of a HOTAS is to maximize ergonomic placement, accessibility and economy of movement. The throttle had no midpoint detent feature to allow bi-directional thrust control to have a zero thrust "home" position. That was a problem that I found supremely irritating. My second HOTAS was the Saitek (blue marking) version X-56 Rhino. The stick worked out very nicely and having hands that are a good size fit, I can't complain about the fixed palm-edge feature too much... It could use a little better contour but, meh. The pinky button is a little bit obstructed but nothing severe. My only real wish for the stick is that the secondary trigger button should be about 5mm taller to making reaching over the POV with my thumb arched, a little less crampy. Holding that button down becomes annoying while pulse-wave scanning. The X-56 Rhino Throttle is a whole other story. It had internal cross-talk in the electronics that sometimes caused two mapped keys to be activated by pressing the same button. I initially thought I was just bumping into buttons I didn't mean to but this turned out not to be the case. I documented the problem to reproducibility and for my trouble Saitek deleted my product review from Amazon. My response was to take their products completely off the table for consideration for future purchase or recommendation. A shame because the overall layout and feel was excellent. Currently considering the Virpil M-50s and willing to budget a bit to get them. I was thinking earlier about just filling the gap by adding a Warthog Throttle to my Rhino Stick and calling it good, but the Virpil has a much more robust construction and I've played with second-best. Now I just want the best I can manage and Virpil appears to be just that.
I have to got to add my support to the TM 16000. I did quite a lot of research on the HOTAS available and took the opportunity to experience friends HOTAs setups. However, having purchased the TM 16000 I really enjoy it and get great immersive game experience.
Great now i'm actually considering getting a HOTAS for Elite on my Xbox. Before this Video i was set on that i didn't really need a HOTAS and i don't need a HOTAS but now i really want a Thrustmaster TFlight Hotas, i'll probably ask for it when Christmas comes around. Thanks Obama - I mean Exigeous.
Unfortunately on console the only option is the T.Flight Hotas. I use one and love it, though. Way better than the controller. Just can't beat that immersed feeling. There are some issues with grinding from the fulcrum the tighter it's wound, but it's not really noticeable with headphones. Would definitely recommend to beginners like i was.
I agree on the Hotas T Flight. I have recently purchesed the T Flight X (the one for PC/PS3) and had no problems with it (for a beginner in HOTAS :D) I mapped my buttons to my preference and in like 30 minutes to 1 Hour i was allready used to it and was going all crazy in Elite Dangerous and World of Warplanes. I was lucky and got it for 30 euros from someone that used it once or twice. I could have waited a bit for the T16000 but was not sure if i would get used to a Hotas and giving hundreds of euros and then not using it... so yeah will stick with T Flight for now :)
The best way to pronounce HOTAS is, of course, "Hot ass."
i do this quite a bit XD
and here I am saying "Hoe Toss"
UPDATE: In the video I *incorrectly* state the CH Pro Throttle doesn't have an analog axis for thrusters - if you look at the slide it is correct in that it does have this axis. Also I stated in the slide that it has twist - another mistake. Fuck me, I just screwed that one all to hell, didn't I? Apologies for the mistakes everyone!
Even acknowledging them is leaps beyond what a lot of guys would do
m'eh :) 3 years on, still a great run-down.
.
New to Horizons (believe that!) I'm starting to learn that the DBX is everything I dreamed a Cobra 3 would be :D
and that a Stick, if not full Hotas, is probably essential.
My HOTASS mouse and keyboard is unmatchable.
So now we need to list get rich quick schemes for getting these. Lol
My xbox budget is sweating
How about deep core mining.
Oh wait this is real life.
Road to Riches keeps on failing no matter the distance I put when I try starting from my neighbourhood! 😔🤣
A made a million from kill contracts and bounties in a few hours last night. It's tedious but it pays pretty good the more you grind and rank up.
@@wesleythoman9873 OK how do I buy real world stuff using elite dangerous credits?
Awesome! Now we need a guide how to build a flight chair. For Immersion!
Have a look at my Cockpit tour and guide for the details on my setup.
For some reason I read "immersion" with a Latvian accent.
Look up Obutto.
as do we all - all hail the Yamiks
Yeah, damn Yamiks, I can't think it without hearing him too!
I'm offended that you don't pronounce it "hot-ass Thrust Master"
I have the thrustmaster warthog and it's great, however for Elite I would be extremely comfortable using the X52 pro as elites ship controls are a carbon copy of it, I've used the X52 pro in elite before and it's a great setup
Visually yes, but practically the X52 has far fewer buttons than functions in E:D
FWIW, the stick in Elite: Dangerous is apparently modeled on the X-52.
Yeah I noticed that. I really wanted to get it but they don't make them anymore and second hand sellers bump up the price a lot :/
@@zkmarkov2984 Pro X52 still in production, afaik. Seeing local stores are all waiting new units coming next month. Or did you mean specifically the grey X52 model?
I bought an X-52 many years ago for use with FSX, I never liked it because it felt very loose compared to my Logitech 3D pro, but I never refunded it. I started playing like 2 months ago and I realized the controls in Elite look very similar to it. I hadn't used it in years, so I had to take it down from the attic. I have since ditched my Xbox controller for the X-52 and I'm glad it did. I probably wouldn't have started using a HOTAS if it wasn't modeled after the X-52, it just feels cool knowing I'm using basically the same controls as my CMDR in Elite.
@@zkmarkov2984 Logitech took over Saitek. I believe they still manufacture the X52.
I freaking loved my T1600M, it was perfect for elite dangerous in my opinion. But... there seems to be a problem with the the twist axis. I did recalibrate it and it fixed the problem for about a week. But it died today. So I did some research and it seems to be a very common problem with the T1600M sadly. So don't get it, save your money for something better i'd say. It's such a shame tho, Thurstmaster seems to have alot of problem with quality control lately.
I've had the twist problem with mine, but I was able to fix it by opening the handle as much as I could without removing the trigger. Sprayed it with canned air to be safe and put in back together. I've had to do it a couple times but I haven't had any more issues so far
I know this is an old comment, but since it comes up with the Top Comments now, it is worth mentioning there are a couple very cheap fixes for the Z-axis issue.... by replacing the stock sensor with a Hall sensor, either with or without using 3D printed parts.
Also, if you were to get the Hotas slider upgrades too, it totally transforms the whole setup to feel more high-end & makes it much better value for the total money.
You must have gotten a bad T16000m (RARE) - I have tried most too and it is excellent, you have 3 easy to reach buttons that can be used as shift so there is nothing you cannot map, even in VR and I don't even need to use any of the buttons on the stick base. I have a setup in an arcade room and have had dozens of people try out the sticks and almost all prefer the T16000m. The Throttle however needs to have a special non-binding grease to really shine (Nyogel 767A) and then it's smooth as butter. The paddles I just use to tab menu's so never an issue and the build quality I found on par or better than all other other plastic hotas's. The Wathog does not even have yaw so I never include that, it's nice but incomplete without major $$ and so out of the price range of others it's not even close to apples to apples. I found the Saitek / Logitech x series ok but often button placement was awkward, In fact I have a new x56 Rhino(New Gray/Black Logitech version even) collecting dust that is likely heading to ebay, for as cool as it is with the lights, switches and all the buttons it just is not as comfortable to me as the T16000M even though twice the price, I have average to maybe slightly above average size hands and the buttons are not where I feel they should be and this was pretty common among guests who have tried it. For the $112 U,S, Amazon has these for you cannot go wrong - I would suggest anyone looking try one of them, worst that can happen is you send it back, best that can happen - like me you get a better more comfortable setup and save $$ too - The build quality is fine on both throttle and stick but the grease will set you back about $25 and literally makes it so much better I do consider it almost mandatory bringing it's price to $137 but it's worth it. Of course as Exigeous mentions, your mileage may vary but quite opposite of my findings.
First I'm curious if you've owned/had every one of these to test for a few weeks like I did?
Of course your opinion and nope, there was nothing 'wrong' with the 16000 I had, I just didn't care for it at all. The button layout on the stick is terrible (12 buttons on the base that are impossible to use if you have your left hand on the throttle) with only a single hat and the button layout on the throttle, save for the analog stick for thrusters was really uncomfortable for me. While I didn't grease the throttle, so fair enough, I couldn't get past how cheap and thin the base and plastics were for it. Again all taste - but realize when I compare these to things like the Warthog they are all HOTAS and I made it very clear you need pedals with the Warthog (which I'd run regardless as I WANT pedals). As I said it's all subjective - you'll find someone that loves one and hates another for every one - but as I said in the video for my money I'd get the X52 (specifically the Pro) every single time over the 16000M.
fair enough - I have had them all except the new logitech x56 for quite some time for obvious reasons - I have an "Arcade" room I put together a few years back complete with virtual pinball, mame machines and 2 VR racing / flight cabinets so my stuff gets tested by friends and family pretty often... I agree with you about the buttons on the base of the 16000m being awkward but I never use them as when possible I use a "shift" function if the game allows it which elite does in spades, so you have the 2 buttons on the throttle and the "click" of the analog on the throttle which can easily be used as "shift keys" so for example the hat on the stick can perform 16 different actions alone depending on which button you are holding on the throttle but I don't even need to get that extreme, I have the push on the analog I use along with the buttons on the stick and the 2x 4 ways on the throttle and I am not even really near capacity of that. The one you mention the x52 I did like about the same feel wise but after 3 of them having QC issues I gave up on it and like you I did not want to knock any so I did not mention that one.
CMDR Exigeous Had T16000M FCS for months and absolutely LOVE it. And I treat it pretty rough during combat. No complaints. Just my 2 cents worth...
I like the FCS, too, but it's way too light for desk use as shipped. It's nice that the slider runs metal-on-metal, but the extremely lightweight base makes the whole thing feel cheap.
Jimmy DaSquid not saying you're wrong at all, that's great you're loving it. But I would be curious what you'd think had you been able to fly them all for a few weeks like I did - that's where I put the T16000M last. The great thing is none of them are crap, these are just my opinions and by definition they are subjective. I did try to be as objective as possible however.
O7, CMDR Exegious. I was curious if there was any chance you might be able to do an updated comparison for HOTASes. Thank you. -CMDR Zane Kata
(Edit: spelling)
I fly with an Xbox One controller and use my Logitech G27 pedals as yaw rudders and my H-Shifter for throttle positions. Had a wheel lying around anyways, figure I might as well bind some mappings to it. Works great!
I use dual sticks and pedals, but I really enjoyed the video. I appreciate the clean, focused narration and willingness to just share information.
Excelent video as usual. I have the t flight hotas since 2015 and it is an excellent product even after a year on my car trunk getting hit by things and moving around as I drive it still works today. But since 2018 I upgraded to the x52 pro version which is just a beast. Highly recommend both products
Soooo guess I'll just join the airforce or the navyyy?
I use the legendary Microsoft Sidewinder Forcefeedback 2 and CH Products Pro Throttle. The Sidewinder does have twist and the forcefeedback does work to provide motorized resistance. It has to be plugged into a wall power socket on top of usb, but it truly is fantastic.
CH Pro throttle has analog input, the very good thumb stick for thrusters.
Yeah, damn it - sorry I misspoke there - I updated the description to correct for my mistake.
I own CH products and love them. however since the sticks have no twist you would need pedals for full control. ch stuff is expensive but to me it is worth it. Also there is a used market where you can save a few bucks.
Not the most expensive thing you can get, but definitely not entry level either. They are supposed to be very durable so you don't have to buy replacements in a very long while and if you buy used, it's more likely to be in decent condition as well.
I have owned a full CH Products setup (Flightsim Yoke, Fighterstick, Pro Throttle & Pro Pedals) for a few years now ... I really love their products and highly recommend them. They work really well and are made to last.
PS: I used to have a Saitek X52 Pro ... urgh! ... I got so fed up with it's lack of precision, I threw it out the window one day in a fit of rage. I now stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it ... they only build cheap junk.
I completely agree on the CH Products. Their being made to last was why I purchased them. In my opinion, they're probably the best bang for your buck due to their longevity. I have the Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals for almost 4 years now. They've survived 4 moves as well as a stint in storage and they are still working well and as precise as the day I got them. I definitely recommend getting the pedals for YAW input. They also add 2 more axis's that can be used on top of YAW.
Point being, if you want something to last and are fairly durable, they are your best bet from my experience so far. They may be plastic, but they are definitely a solid design and will last a long time.
Keyboard+Mouse doesn't ruin my immersions because if I had a spaceship in real life I'd have it modified for Keyboard+Mouse controls
That's pretty funny - but somehow I doubt that. ;-)
Would love to see you using a mouse while enduring the g-forces during a turn =D
Easy-peasey with my robot arm
I I had a ship I would actually ouse a combined setup. HOTAS for the flight controls, and M/KB for all the navigational stuff like menues, oh, and lots of stuff with touch.
@@salmasrac3351 touchè
I agree completely on the best budget option being the T.Flight Hotas. I used it for years, desipite the lack of a full 6 analog axis.
However, I'd say I'd move the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS above the X52/X52Pro (I may be biased since I had an x52 that just died on me. From what I've seen here it is generally these Saitek joysticks that are regularly commented on having poor build quality compared to their price tags.) The Thrustmaster FCS wins out with better functions for a lower price for me.
Just a few notes on the Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS:
The joy does have less than ideal buttons but I managed to get away from that by moving some less important - non combat - functions to the buttons on the base.
The throttle acts up a bit indeed on the slide but if you adjust the tension screw to loosen it it becomes smooth. I'd love a 50% range detent but to get that I'd have to downgrade for the T.Flight Hotas or go way up in the price range for the Virpil products. The paddle is big but I use ot for SRV turning only - keeping the index finger ministick purely for thrusters. This way I can independently drive my SRV fully from the throttle while I aim the turret with my mouse. (Using a joystick for aiming like that is just super awkward for my brain).
Overall I'd say the FCS is a better option than the X52/X52pro as these are more expensive, can have their electronics just die on the inside and still only have 5 analog axis since the ministick on most versions is aggressively only for moving the mouse pointer. Not sure if later generations changed that.
FCM?
I accidentally posted my reply when I wanted a line break - hence the edit. Obviously I only have experience with the lower end of the spectrum you have tried.
I should add that the weight is indeed a problem with the FCS and I am looking to sort that out but other than what I mentioned I am satisfied with the set up, more so than I was with my older series X52.
Maybe in the long run I'll justify getting a Virpil set up.
still using one of these i.imgur.com/GY8tf8M.jpg (x45) because i despise twist stick yaw and it has two rotary throttles
From what I've heard, older X-52s are still going strong (or at least last a lot longer), it appears the Madcatz produced versions are the ones that started their unreliable reputation
As for Logitech upgrading production, it seems they overhauled the X-56 to better standards, but since they didn't change the color during this change
(I believe this change in internals occurred during the black/grey livery release. the black/blue version is definitely what was left of the Madcatz production, so stay away from those), the risk is that you are buying a Madcatz legacy product
Logitech itself has been shit for build quality for years now, so no surprise there. I love their products design-wise, but they never last very long.
I bought the X55 Rhino when ED was in Beta. Still have it now with over 1500hrs use. Still works w/o any issues and I love it. Essentially it's down to what you feel you can afford and feel comfortable with. If we all loved the same things life would be boring!
CH products, great great build quality despite the appearance. The throttle has 3 buttons perfectly placed for pip management, and the index finger hat is a nice reset for them. Side buttons are great for thrusters, and landing thrusters as well as assist toggle and FSD activation. the analog stick on the throttle is very useful for thrust and for tuning in the exploration tool set. The actual stick it's self has the same design the the higher priced, flashier models have so far as button placement. The mode switch doesn't have to be a mode switch. That said, you can have 3 different complete bindings if you wish and toggle through them. I just use one and Voice controls. In VR, you can't see what your controls look like and if the old school cosmetics of the CH is the only thing stopping anyone I would highly suggest looking past that. They are accurate, and very reliable. I have over 1k hours and counting on mine (500+ in elite) and they are rock solid. You also get a throttle dial on the joystick with a centering indent and a trim adjuster on the joy stick as well for your tilt and roll. I use the ped set as well, so if a twist stick is a must, maybe just check out the throttle. For pip button placement alone it's worth it heh.
By far the best comparison video I could find. Picked up the T.Flight HOTAS 4 for a marked up $100 (thanks Flight Sim and Squadrons). I actually didn't choose it for the lowest price, I chose it because you made a good point, it's the only one designed for lap use. Since I'll be playing in my room scale VR setup that lacks a desk or office chair it will probably be the best bet when playing from the couch.
I've been using the T-flight as my entry into simulator-style gaming, and it has seriously changed my experience with Elite Dangerous. Having played it since launch with keyboard, when I made the switch half a year ago I can say the difference is night and day. I am no Ace pilot, but using a hotas makes me feel like one.
I have no experience with more expensive options, but I can only imagine they further enhance the range of options available. I still have some options mapped to the keyboard and use Voiceattack to make up gaps in convenient access.
I strongly recommend anyone curious about HOTAS control for either E:D or games like Star Wars: Squadrons to pick one of these up. It is convenient, mostly plug-and-play and well-supported, and at the price point you really can't go wrong.
Great video as usual, although I strongly disagree on your evaluation of the thustmaster versus the x52. I ordered the x52 and returned it due to the poor quality of hardware and software, I tested the thrustmaster at frontier expo and found the build quality excellent for the price, and the precision is way better than the chproducts I have. I would have probably bought the thrustmaster, if it had been out when I made my purchase. I'm now saving for some awesome high end setup, warthog,virpil... something...
This is what I've heard repeatedly about the Saiteks. It sounds like a real crapshoot, where you don't know what you're going to get when you open the box.
This is actually a fairly recent development. Saiteks used to be very high quality until Mad Catz bought them out. Then their quality control hit rock bottom. Now we can only hope Logitech's acquisition can rectify this... but there's still lots of Mad Catz Saitek gear out in the wild.
Well like I said - some are going to say you're crazy and some will say I'm crazy, I could only go off what I felt having them each for a few weeks. To my hands the quality difference between the X52 and T16000M wasn't even close, didn't even feel in the same product category - and remember as a Warthog fan I love Thrustmaster (and have one of their wheel bases and multiple wheels too). For me I also really disliked the button placement on the FCS, the buttons on the stick base are unusable during flight (have to take your hand off to use them) and the layout and slider throttle to my hands were pretty terrible. The good thing is none of them are shit, it's a good time to be a HOTAS customer for sure (and thanks for the polite strong disagreement :D)
@@Exigeous - You really aren't qualified to make a video like this if you think picking the best HOTAS just means which one feels the best in your hands.
There's so much more to it than that and your recommendations are embarrassing.
@@Exigeous I mean, I have to disqualify you on this one. I think you've been led by the touch and feeling and forgot that the t1600m has the same sensor as the Warthog, a top of the line hotas by the way, and the most important part, it has an analog joystick on the thruster that is basically a MUST have for any space sim that uses thrusters, the x52 dosn't have one. I do agree that the x52 looks and probably feels more premium, I personally would love to exchange my t1600m for an x52, but truth be told I won't because it's more expensive and it delivers less, plus the whole quality control problems and nightmare stories we hear about them. So yeah, I feel that this review lacked some objectivity and impartiality.
man the music is so load in the back! sry good review tho
Agreed, the music was way too loud
I have a traditional hotas with rudder pedals (an old x52 with even older thrustmaster pedals). I have thousands of hours using them for Falcon BMS flight sim. Arguably one of the best combat Sims out there. Works great for that!
For elite dangerous, I use a combination of g600 mouse, razor tarterus v2, trackir, and voiceattack. It's 100% hands off.
With yaw on mouse x, pitch on mouse y, and roll and throttle on keys on the Tartarus, aiming is much, much, easier than with stick, throttle, and pedals. Not even in the same universe.
The mouse has 12 buttons and a ring finger button that allows for 24 total. I really only use the 6 buttons close to the front of the mouse, but 12 (using the ring finger toggle) is plenty.
Literally the only person I've ever heard/seen who shit on the 16000m.
I actually prefer it to all other HOTAS which I have tried, meaning all of them from this video except the Virpil or VKBSim products. Warthog would beat it if it had twist yaw, as I can't stand pedals, and of course Warthog throttle is king. The Saitek products are pure garbage in my experience, though I'm told the quality has improved since Logitech took them over, mine were/are from the bad old days though.
Once a long time ago I owned CH products, but can't find them anymore here in Sweden. I had a throttle, stick and rudder pedals. This was the age before USB was invented, and we had to use gameports on the soundcard or PC..
And then a couple of years later, got my first Thrustmaster stick. The TopGun. Damn, that was a great stick!
I even modified my own T1600m. Whilst doing it, I started to understand more and more about how it works.
Most sticks use potentiometers to "measure" where you are. This stick actually use a magnet and a sensor. And it is so good, the throttle is a bit plastic.. But yes. It IS plastic.
However, getting an extra X & Y mini stick is great.. Added an extra button and LED lights. Trying to get the throttle to "follow" the led lights, ranging from white, orange, red and green.
Yeah the Saitek is a no-go. I have friends and read a lot of negative stuff about it. One is a someone who bought the Pro version and actually it started to malfunction within 2 weeks. He changed it 3 times total. After that he did as the rest, got something else.. Seems that Logi/Sai had some issues with the spring system.
But the VIRPIL.. Something I really do want to have!
My first ever joystick was a Saitek, way back in 93ish and was USB1.0 or something, beat the crap out of all the opposition at that time.
Such a shame that poor management led them down the road to ruins.
And I am no fan of Logitech right now as my G920 wheel has not worked since I got it 5 weeks ago and Logi support lost, yes LOST 4 weeks of emails and correspondence, piss poor imo
I really loved my 16000M. If it had an extra hat and a thumb slide or hat, and a pinky trigger it would be perfect. 16000M Pro? Thrustmaster is so close to a perfect cheapish type controller.
I sent it back for a x56 Logitech update model. Hopefully that one is OK!
So do I, first negative impression on 16000, I'm in love, it only needs at least 3 more buttons in joystick to be perfect
@@leynadIX Do you use the "twist" function and if so how is it holding up? Apparently the longevity of this feature is chronically poor on the 16000. Curious as to your experience so far?
I 100% agree with your choice of the Warthog and VKBSim Mk4 pedals. Sure they're expensive. Sure I had to fabricate my own center detent for the throttle. Sure I had to build my own stick extension to fly helicopters in DCS, but if I had to do it all over again, I'd do exactly the same thing. Both kits are absolutely worth every penny.
Very weird you didn't like the T16000m. I went from an X-56 that I got for ~$350AUD and having the torsion spring in the stick snapping just over a year later. When I opened it up and had a look the torsion spring metal looked cheap as shit. This is in addition to a few other issues: namely, the stick being made for overly big hands, and a few times the calibration went wonky.
I got a T16000m and for half the price it felt better, played better, and I haven't had any real problems with it.
That twist for yaw option is probably a good feature for space sims, but for aviation sims (especially the more "hard" variety), that's just a useless option and a liability, adding just one more thing that can brake. A large rocker with a hefty give is a must at a very least (and what gives the TWCS my personal thumbs up here) and full rudder pedals (if you can afford them and have the place to put them) are of course the preferred way to go. I'm still to find a stick that completely suits my needs.
I run with the CH Fighterstick for now (the styling isn't an issue for me, as i have no stomach for futuristic designs anyway), mostly because it has more then enough HATs and buttons in a functional enough layout and a reputation for longevity. The Warthog would be a solid investment, but for me personally is an overkill. I get nothing out of the outer metal construction (same electronics as the T16000), the layout is a replica of an A-10 CAS plane (i plane i don't fly in sims, nor do i plan to) and the price is slightly prohibitive for a product that doesn't suit my needs. Had there been an F-14, F-15 or F-18 based stick of similar quality, i would have probably opted for it.
My throttle choice is (as mentioned before) the TWCS (mainly for the reasons mentioned above), but also for the bang for buck ratio. Ideally, i would want a separable double throttle solution, but none exist right now, that feature a rocker rudder control at the same time and i have no room (nor will) to get full rudder pedals in near future. So this combination provides me with a nice mid range HOTAS for DCS and FSX. Again, for space sims, priorities are probably quite different.
I got the T.16000M specifically for playing Elite in VR and it's nearly perfect. Solid build, smooth analog, and enough controls that I can do everything I need to do in game by touch alone (obviously critical in VR) with extra controls left over. I have relatively small hands so I do have to reach a bit for the lower castle on the throttle, but that's set to wingman controls so I almost never need to use it. The buttons on the base of the joystick took a bit of practice to learn to hit without being able to see, but the pips in the buttons make identifying them by touch easy.
To me, the paddles on the throttle are fantastic. I have them set for hyperspace/supercruise, scrolling through menu tabs, and SRV turret toggle/handbrake. It's easy to reach when I need it and completely out of the way when I don't.
The Warthog is undeniably a fantastic setup with a great feel and built like a tank, but I found it too limited, particularly the lack of twist. Maybe outside of VR it's an acceptable option, but for me it was a no-go.
same here, bought it for ED in VR, its great, i use the paddles for precise throttle controll when docking
Super late comment, but I will recommend T.16000M simply due to the contact less HAL sensors for the base. These will outlast ANY mechanical resistance based sensors on other sticks simply due to the fact that they are contact less magnetic sensors. Traditional resistance based sensors will simply shred their surface over time, forcing more and more calibration cycles on you until they die on loss of contact when a gap develops on the resistance rails. And I also say this as owner of Thrustmeter Warthog that also uses these, but if I were on budget I would go for the T.16000M simply for the above reason.
The HAL's are ok but the rest of the joystick in my case was thrashed after the first battle in Elite after using the twist in anger. I'm now buying the Warthog as it is made of steel and has HAL's as well on the latest version. All this tech is pretty useless when the stick is dangling over to one side as mine is now. TBF I talking about the original "green" version. Don't know if the Orange one is any better but since no updates were mentioned about the internals I doubt it is.
I had a T16000M (just the stick) and brought a X-52 (non-pro) only to be disappointed. The X-52 has a horrible stick. The buttons are fine but the actual stick has a horrible deadzone/accuracy issues and feels terrible to control. There are some after market mods that you can do with magnets that apparently help though (and maybe they have fixed it somewhat in newer versions).
The T16000M is a decent quality on the actual stick. The thumb buttons seemed fine to me although the base buttons require you to remove a had so they suck.
What I ended up doing was using the X-52 throttle with the T16000M stick which works well although there isn't quite enough buttons for ED. With combo buttons it works well and I don't have to use the base buttons. Remember you can use the HAT's as buttons.
Still the X-52 throttle is ok but still far from perfect. I had to open it up and physically remove the annoying haptic 'dent' at the halfway mark. Also the throttle has 3 sliders, 1 is useful for zoom/FSS tuning in ED but there is no use for the other 2 in ED. It also has an annoying thumb mouse which isn't much use either (you might be able to turn it into another HAT in software though, unfortunately last time I checked it seem the current version of the software might have been missing the feature. The thumb button placement isn't great either. The hat switch is great though
If you are looking at the X-52 series, defiantly get the X-52 PRO not the basic X-52 since apparently it has a much better stick. Opinion seems to be the X-56 is worse because of the silly pinky trigger and general quality but I haven't tried it. As for the higher end stuff, personally I couldn't live without twist on the stick, I don't want pedals taking space under my desk and like to put my legs up, but I can see the appeal for a more 'realistic' or flightsim cockpit setup.
have an old x55, and its LITTERED with problems.
the software is highly dated, the drivers have issues recognizing both throttle and stick at once..... and lets get to the fun part.
saitek/madcatz are now owned by logitech. there will be no support or profile releases for anything new in the foreseeable future even though i purchased it just a year or two earlier. they will happily drain you of your money, come out with something new, then stop supporting your product.
if you think this is isolated? think again. i've owned an array of logitech over the years and they are pleased that their products fail after warranty. mouse, 3 years, kb 2yrs, speakers 2.5 yrs, and the list goes on to now include an x55 that is unusable.
tldr? don't buy anything logitech makes, you're going to regret it.
I used to have a Thrustmaster Hotas X for starters, but after that died, I've selected the CH Combatstick matched with the Thrustmaster TWCS, just because I fell in love with the paddle in front of the throttle, which is IMHO the best yaw control without having to bother with pedals...
god damn those ch sticks look pretty much the same as the one my dad had when I was a kid like 20 years ago
They're a very 'if it ain't broke' company. They know what they're good at and they never stray outside that comfort zone. For better or worse.
I bet it still works and is as accurate as it was fresh out of the box, too.
My x52 pro finally bit the dust the other day after roughly 6 years of use. After such a long time I was very comfortable with the button assignments and feel so I decided to get another one :)
You forget to mention that Ch fighterstik also need pedal's
LOVE MY CH PRODUCT'S HOTAS! Been using for 20 years, but think I'll invest in a dual-stick set up with VIRPIL. Will have to do some youtube research on how the Dual Stick is better than a traditional HOTAS.. GREAT CHANNEL!!
Have a look at Noobifier's Star Citizen channel, great content and he flies dual stick. It's not necessarily "better" but it does give you very precise thruster control as that's what the left stick does. For me that's not critical as I'm always full thruster in combat anyway.
Actually picked up the t16000m after the new years and find it so much more enjoyable and a great setup for a beginner like myself :)
I purchased the X56 Logitec about a year ago. I returned it to amazon. Not only are the thumb dials on the throttle cheap and "flexy" but the whole thing was stiff. Even when the tension was turned all the way down you could not quickly throttle up and down. There are guides on how to take it apart and remove grease and stuff, but yeah, no thanks on the voiding of a warranty on a $200(ish) dollar setup. The stick was great. Lots of buttons to bind. But the yaw (twist) was horrible and there was no adjusting it. I can see some people liking it, because it's the "Top of the line" Logitec E-peen. But I personally don't recommend it unless you're willing to rip the thing apart out of the box and cut springs and remove tension disks and lubricate it with something better than the gunk they use.
I've had my CH setup since 2009 with no issues. I simply love my CH Products it. I returned the Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS (predecessor to the Warthog) because it was simply way to stiff to fly with for me. With the Fighter stick, Pro Throttle, Pro Peddles, and Multi Function Panel all play nice together in one ecosystem and operate under the CH-Products Control software making it very easy to use once you take the time to program it. The power of that programing system is awesome. Additionally, the CH Products setup does have a programmable mode switch on the Throttle that can allow you to switch between 3 different modes, and you can set up a button to act as a kind of "shift key" so that each button can be assigned 2 functions in each mode. This means that each button or hat direction can have a total of 6 different functions. This doesn't count the 25 to 50 buttons that you can have on a single MFP in the CH ecosystem and the ecosystem will allow you to have multiple MFP's, Fighter Stick's, Throttles, etc. Honestly, I'm not sure what the limit of the software is.
able724 Could not agree more. Great products. My 4 ch products are from 2005 and they work like a charm in elite and every other sim I have thrown at them. What one can do with programming is mind blowing...but you don’t have to.
Yup, ditto to all the above able724! Had my Fighterstick/Pro-throttle/Pro-pedals for a long time now. Tough, no nonsense hardware with an incredibly flexible programming software GUI. I have yet to find a function that I could not replicate with the powerful, yet simple, scripting language. What I liked best is that the hardware was versatile enough and, at the same time, generic enough that I could use it for flying modern aircraft and WWII warbirds. Sadly CH Products has been somewhat quiet for a while now ... I have not seen any new products aimed at the PC gaming crowd for several years.
From what I've read about them over the years, they like making the stick but don't really like to bother with marketing and all that. These flight simulator controls are small fry for them/their parent company. Making industrial joysticks is where the real money comes from.
I have a CH HOTAS and pedals and I love it. Very functional and durable. The software is very powerful too even if it looks like it was designed in the 90s. Hey, if it works, why bother messing with it.
I came from the X-55 which was a little disappointing and switched to a Thrustmaster Warthog with additional TM T.Flight Rudders and TM Multi-Function-Displays. This setup is extremely good for VR in my opinion, as you can identify buttons on the MFD and Throttle with ease, without looking and the rudders compensate for the missing z-axis on the stick, while providing extra control, when in the SRV for example.
Excellent video by the way. The overview and info provided should point any buyer in the right direction, where to look and on what to keep an eye on. Well done!
Thanks my friend and yeah, the Warthog really is something special isn't it?
I must admit i think your a little overly harsh on the t16000m, while i agree it's a HOTAS for those on a budget here in the UK at least it represents the best value for money over here as there is a £50 price difference at retail between this and the x52 HOTAS which is significant for us on a budget and compared to the t flight HOTAS is has many more options for configuration. I still feel the t16000M is the best value for money for the lower end of the price range
And at that price it certainly makes it a better deal but I still would choose the X52 every time as for a PC gamer that's not a huge difference for something you're going to use for many hundreds or even thousands of hours. I'm sure many are very happy with the T16000M but those also have never used all the sticks in the review which is where my opinion comes from.
@@Exigeous - Then you're a fool because the X52 is garbage inside and no where near as accurate as the T16000m.
@@Exigeous can u stop riding the x52's nuts. i own one and had had to go out and buy a t16000m because the x52 is so inaccurate it was almost unusable.
Don't forget the VKB Gladiator MK II. More for WW2, but still a very affordable at $100 option and great quality for the price. The only "budget" stick from a really good brand, with quality to match. It's got a minithrottle on it which is surprisingly good and twist so you don't need pedals. It's the only stick with magnetic sensors on all axes (even twist yaw). If I got an entry level stick now, I would get that one over the x52 (with it's terrible software, annoying buttons and mediocre precision).
I would like to point out that the X-56 now has an updated version that is of a much higher build quality. This new version can be distinguished by the black and grey styling instead of the blue. Id recommend testing the new stick yourself as i love the new X56. Logitech really did a great job fixing the saitek screw-up with button quallity improvements and general sturdyness and feel upgrades
I can confirm the plastic they use is exactly the same, and weak AF. A simple move forward the other day and by right side throttle just fell off.
Tip to anyone with an X56, if you don't use both throttles, tape them together. The force puts far too much stress on the right stick because of that silly little lock, it adds a slight twist that weakens the crappy plastic they use.
@@branjosnow6244 OR you could move both at the same time and not try to yank the throttle from the end
@@DiggitySlice It's a design flaw dude, the catching pin to lock them together, is off center by design, it only goes into the left stick a few mm's, so it pushes the right stick with a slight twist motion as it does it. I've always had it on the mildest friction and been careful with it. But after the grease settles, it adds friction for the first use again. And you can feel the slight twist, as they both do not lock tightly enough to negate the separate movement.
It needs to go right into the center of the the right stick not to cause stress on the plastic. It's been used everyday for about 7 months though. Although the backside buttons of the throttle flicker the connection after about a few weeks, the swivel buttons are terrible, and finding the central notch is impossible during game play. The slider switch refuses to bind to anything in Elite so I've never used it
Stick is rock solid though, hasn't skipped a beat. Bad hat switch placement but can't complain about it's build quality. I thought it would be the first to go, not the throttle.
The X56 looks good, feels good, but is not good. One would assume "1.5mm plastic" would not be used as the throttle supports? A small metal bar would have protected it better.
Granted I was mega pissed when I made that comment, it had just broken when I had sat down for a game of Elite with my cousin on the other side of the planet. I lifted the ship, retracted gear and inched forward towards the mailslot, and the right throtlle just fell off into my hand lol. Been playing the night before and it was fine.
I later fixed it, and how I know the small twist killed it? Without any glue I positioned it back onto the clean brake, and then duct taped that sucker to the left throttle along the join line of the two throttles, front and back. The pressure was now uniform, and it moves both sliders without issue.
So if you don't really ever use both throttles as I didn't, it would add to the lifespan if you prevented any movement at all between the throttles, by just a small strip of strong tape.
The whole Logitech RMA process is a frustrating mess, so I'm going to just have to eat the $250 I payed for it. But I'm eyeing up a Warthog setup, not a lot of complaints about those, but they are pricey AF.
I'd give the X56 a decent 6/10 before it broke, but after seeing how it's made, I couldn't honestly recommend it to anyone.
Another thing to mention in the video is that top tier hardware (VKB MCG pro, VPC t50 or TM WH) is a single purchase in a lifetime, unless you become sort of a collector like myself. I have the MCG Pro, the virpil throttle (2018 both), the Warthog (since 2011), and the Cougar (2003). All of them work without problems. All of these are in the $300+ league, but I bought them once, and I cannot even remember the number of PCs with further graphics card and memory upgrades they were connected to. Let’s say 4 year lifetime for a PC with an update (second to third year).... More than $6000, fact, so make it 20 times the investment, and, save the current machine, they are out of service.
I had as well an X45 (2002), the predecessor of the x52, but they play in a lesser league, with my CH pro pedals (gameport->cougarized) and a Saitek’s one (usb). The only advantageous point is the lesser weight, that makes them really portable, and the Z axis, so no pedals required, so even more portable. But forget about the price, they last much less, and there’s no comparison in look’n’feel.
About the pedals, the ones mentioned above are “good enough” for me, so not feeling to make the move into TM-TPR nor Slaws nor Crosswind (You didn’t talked about propper pedals in order to complete the setups).
WARTHOG! done. Actually CH Products are very good for a cheaper stick. Yes they look cheap and plastic but I will tell you I got my CH Pro Pedals for Christmas of 1997 with the new connector called a USB and yep they still work.
they actually gave me a free replacement potentiometer for my pedals even though they were 3 years past warranty a thrustmaster took 3 months and a lawsuit threat to fix a issue that emerged 3 months after purchase ( buttons went out due to a missoldered wire) amyway best company in my mind
Honestly, I had every Stick there is except that Virpil Stuff. I can tell you a Brief History of my Choices: At the Beginning I played IL-2 Forgotten Battles online and competitive. The Stick I swore my virtual Life on was the Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 1. I also had the X-52´but preferred to use the Throttle of the X-52 together with the MS Stick. Which in my View was the best Combination. I also bought the Saitek Rudders and TM F-16 Stick/Throttle. Later even the Warthog Stick and Throttle. As well as the Rhino. TM Metall Sticks are cool but the Potentiometers are not made for strong Fingers. Mine broke within a Week. I still have them in Storage. I always thought for a Twist Stick the X-52 had not enough grip to use the Twist while working the Hatswitches and the upper Buttons - So I made my own Handrest and screwed it on. After my MS SideWinder FF finally broke the X-52 with that Handrest Mod is my goto for every damn Space/Flightsim and even if I tried different more expensive Stuff the X-52 is my Fallback and stays the best Option. I broke at least 5 of those Sticks and some even came broken in the Box, but if you got a perfect one and be carefull with him - You have a Option for many Years. Some do not like the massive movement the stick has but for a big Hand like mine it allows me very precise Inputs. I never liked those Pedals - They are too slow in movements that allow you getting out or preventing a stall in a WW-2 Fighter in IL-2! It helped me immensly to become a real Pro in the Focke Wulf. That plane has very strong Rudders and so it allows some amazing Rudderwork in Maneuvers where you normally Stall and Crash with other Planes. Elite is very much configured for the X-52, especcially if you don't use the Software for it! I believe that they used that Stick alot in the production of that Sim.
I am looking for a new HOTAS to upgrade from my dual T.16000 sticks. I was debating warthog, virpil and x52, but I think I will choose x52 because it is a lot cheaper, it has some cool input options, it looks like a gutamaya HOTAS, the other options don’t have a rotation axis, and it has a safety cover which the virpil throttle sadly got rid of in the new model. I love safety covers for some reason. It just gives me a lot more immersion for having to make sure I want to press what is under the cover (I don’t know if there is a self destruct or reboot and repair keybind, but silent running could go under the cover for example). So I will probably get x52, do you agree?
@@jdl2327 Remember NOT to install the Software that is included. You do not need it and it also is a waste of time because all Sims now know the X-52 and you can better configure all your Buttons Ingame. Also if you use the Ingame Config while using the Joystick Software, some Buttons won't work.
Huge mistake about Virpil ! - You are showing constelation delta grip and telling us that it dosnt have twist ! Not true
This video is bad. From the format to the misleading info.
x52 has a lot more than one throttle button, and i have no idea what the slide is saying about the stick but it has 12 buttons (13 if you count the secondary press on the main trigger, but it's not too useful in my experience). there are no switches on it, and the mode knob can't be used in-game. The throttle also only has 2 knobs and a slider; the knob on the left is only for adjusting how stiff it is. unsure if all of this is applicable to the pro, but since you're claiming to have tested it i imagine it's different.
I had an X52pro but it was beginning to fall apart (lots of squeaks and groans) so I bought a CH products stick and throttle. It's rock solid and after thousands of hours it feels about the same as when I bought it. I'd recommend CH products over and X52 any day.
Not at all saying your wrong but realize the price is almost double for the CH stuff so that's why I recommend the X52 when factoring in everything.
Yeah, they are pricey. I managed to find a sweet deal on ebay where they were basically half price. Otherwise I would have had a hard time justifying the cost.
You're right that it looks a bit old fashioned too. Also, the throttle is really designed for people with large hands.
But the build quality is amazing and the included software is pretty useful too.
Saitek stuff is junk and money thrown down the drain ... save your money and buy a good product once (ie: CH Products).
I like your honesty with the products. This is awesome! i can only imagine with VR(opinionated)
Not even a mention about analog joystick On CH Throtlle ?
Tel Fer he also got it wrong about the buttons. The three buttons are mode buttons that can alternately just be used as single function buttons.
Exactly that. I have the CH hotas too and the joystick on the throttle is amazing. Was one of the reasons I bought it. Unfortunately the control software does not work for me under Windows 10 anymore. Makros and mode switches were awesome in the software. Edit ok got it to work. Just open the windows store when the buttons are greyed out
I'm definitely appreciate your candor about these items. There's alot of haters about the logitech, in which I was leaning towards. If there's any additional information it will be appreciated.
*I found some aircraft types only partially supported among current products.* As of November 2018 nobody manufactures a counterpart of the Dunlop roll/pitch column used by the Grumman Iron Works (F9F, F11F, A2F, F14F) in addition to British aircraft manufactures - the column is pivoted at the base for pitch, midway up for roll. Nor does anybody manufacture a satisfactory collective-pitch arm for helicopter apps, although the VIRPIL® MongoosT-50® southpaw version would be a satisfactory collective grip.
The Logitech HOTAS stick grips (applicable to the in-house G940 Flight System as well as the MadCatz-developed X52/PRO and X56) are panned by real-life pilots for switch placement inconsistent with any plane or helo outside of experimental builds. VIRPIL now supports the THRUSTMASTER® HOTAS WARTHOG® stick grip on the MongoosT-50 base/gimbal unit. For cutting-edge Russian machinery, the ideal sim stick grip isn't yet in production, but it would pack two analog ministicks (both with push select), two four-way and two five-way switches, two folding two-stage triggers of different lengths and swing arcs (àu OKB Kamova), and five pushbuttons in specific locations.
Upgraded from the T-Flight HOTAS X to the T16000M FCS (with TFRP pedals). I don't like the ergonomics of the TWCS throttle, and I'm disappointed with the button placement on the T16000M, though I love how it's ambidextrous. I also play Farming Simulator, and a dual stick forestry setup is choice. Plus, Thrustmaster's TARGET software scratches me right where I itch. But since I'm not using any of the advanced features TARGET has to offer for Elite, other than some slight custom curves on the TWCS paddles, I'm seriously tempted to spring for an X52 or X52 Pro. I'm a lifelong Logitech user, and I'm glad to see them putting out better products than they did before the Saitek acquisition. The X52 throttle looks like it's a million times more comfortable than the TWCS throttle. Why couldn't Thrustmaster just have kept the same sort of contours that they had on the T-Flight HOTAS X? I liked that throttle, even if the joystick as a whole sucked out loud.
I've been close to buying the Warthog several times. The lack of the twist-function held me back. I think I'm gonna settle with the X56.
By twist do you mean turning the ship left/right on the Z axis right? If so it only has lateral movement? I'm just curious I'm not too familiar with this stuff but I am interested
Yes. The warthog only has lateral movement. No twist.
@@Kurkess I see, after seeing a few yt videos and some more research, and being left handed I'm likely just gonna settle for something low-mid-range with twist and learn to fly right handed :/
@@goofball1_134 being a lefty myself, you'll love the x52
@@Boba_Brett13 yeah I ended up going duel stick with x52 and tm1600. The throttle for the x52 while nice, I couldn't get a good feeling for using a button swap to make the throttle go in reverse. I would have to add peddles or go hosas. and since hosas was cheaper I went for it and I love it!
Great Video, I may not agree with you on the fcm but you make some great points and well versed. Thank you.
Yeah, not everyone is going to agree on something subjective but I tried to be as objective as I could without shitting on any of them.
After some many hours with warthog you know, that it does not have any issues with potentiometers as it uses HALL effect instead of classic sensor and it remains very precise. Sadly you did not mentioned that so criticised T16000 also uses this technology and after year or two this stick will be superior over rest which will wobble a lot. Though it is worth mentioning that T16000 uses classic potentiometer for yaw axis and this one becomes loose just after few months of heavy usage. But still, you can't know it after 2 weeks of testing all of sets.
You're totally right - I just couldn't get into that level of detail for every stick as the video already went super long, especially for my content.
@@Exigeous 11 minutes, super long? Wow! The attention span of today is down in hell.
Disagree. The t16000 on my desk got sloppy after the first serious fight and is almost useless for ED right now unless I set a huge dead zone. Will never get near to them anymore.
I still rock the Saitek X45, can get one now for $90. I think it is better than everything else for Elite. X52 is very similar, and if I were to upgrade it’s the only option. I don’t like the direction Logitech took with their line of hotas. Can’t justify upgrading when the X45 works so well.
I haven’t heard of the Virpil, but was looking for a quality Hotas, like the Warthog, but more buttons and hats on the stick. Thanks for the suggestions!
You should update by mentioning that Logitech redesigned the X56 with much better internals that what Saitek offered. Also, you might confuse people by including the "Blue" colored X56 (which are still sold on Amazon), since those are the older Saitek models and god awful. The newer "Gray" colored sticks are the ones made by Logitech.
That is an excellent overview. I went from X52 (which I still have) to the Rhino (returned it as the main fire button stopped working) and eventually to the Warthog plus Saitec rudder pedals. What my concern was with these HOTAS was the mounting issues. How to fix it to the desk? With the X52 and Rhino (this was a must as the throttle was very stiff) I had to screw it on a wooden board. The bord I clamped to the desk. That takes a little time for setup ervery time I played Elite. So after reimbursing the Rhino I made the decision to purchase the Warthog. Expensive but I love it since. No need to screw it down. Just wipe the rubber pads on the bottum with a wet cloth. This way the stick to the desk in particular during a fight! With the foot pedals this is a perfect setup. As you rightly point out in your video! NEvertheless I should mention that the red paint is gone at the main trigger button.
I use the CH Products hotas and yaw pedal. Fantastic gear. If you don't need flashy looking design then you cannot go wrong with CH Products.
I’ve got the dual t 16 setup and I have to say I am absolutely in love with them. They’re my babies.
Don't forget the VKB Gladiator Mk.II. It comes in both Pro ($249) and non-pro ($129) versions. The non-pro is an excellent stick for Elite, because it has twist, solid VKB quality, is affordable, and has a TON of buttons on the base, plus it comes with a small throttle on the base as well. You could (theoretically) get away with just using that for one-stick Elite... but I wouldn't recommend it. It's a bit sparse on on-stick buttons, but beggars can't be choosers with a VKB stick at that price. It feels good to fly with, and there's not a lot of crap that gets in my way.
I've had that stick paired with the CH Throttle for about a year now. The CH Throttle is "okay," but if I don't give it plenty of deadzone room for the sloppy encoders, it can lose calibration fast. Also, 8 bit encoders? 1996 called, they want their encoders back. It's really not very accurate if you figure in the deadzone overhead.
I just got in the Virpil Mongoos T-50 Throttle to replace it, and it's a beast. 16-bit encoders on every axis for starters. It feels much less toy-like, and more sim-like. (Still not quite real, but a lot closer.) The controls are just buttery smooth, with adjustable detents, and you can even change the "tightness" of the throttle itself.
One downside is catching it on the Virpil shop. It's like trying to catch a unicorn with chopsticks. They go up and sell out in about 3-4 hours. Also, with shipping to the US, it was a little over $400. Shipping alone was $70. OUCH.
Also, Elite does NOT support more than 32 buttons per controller, so now I have to set up some virtual controllers just to get all of the buttons on this thing configured. And FDev admits that it's an issue with the game, and it doesn't look like they plan to fix it... just as they increase the bindings in the latest beta to 268. Yay.
I'd love to see you do a vjoy or similar tutorial for cramming a bunch of HOTAS buttons into Elite.
Thank you for the guide . I do have a question..... all the research I did when choosing a Hotas there were some issues about reliability. In two of your recommendations were cited for having poor reliability and quality control issues. Have you experience any issues with any of the joysticks that you’ve used ?
Remember somewhere you'll read someone telling you every one of these are total pieces of shit and to avoid, etc. Personally I've only owned the Warthog (and a 52 many many years back) so I could only go on what they felt like in my hands for the 2 weeks or so I had them. None of them are junk at all and while each one could fail in days, weeks, months or years that's very hard for me to say - I can only say what they felt like in my hands which is where my comments come from.
one thing I have noticed with the Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X is that the button markings WEAR OFF very quickly. I am by no means a fullday/night player, yet the markings on the buttons started to worn off after few weeks, while playing casualy 2-6 hours a day Elite Dangerous.
as a side note, I have come across a lot of negative QQ about how short the connecting cable is between the thrust and stick when the hotas get's separated, so just to correct this QQ nonsense going around the globe, the lenght of the cable is around 50-60cm, which is not the longest cable but definitely enough long for having a comfortable split-setup.
As for the worn off buttons (and by that I mean the colour/marking) you can simply put a stickers on them as a replacement, or paint them with whatever that gonna last.
this excellent review helped me choose! Tnx and kudo's to CMDR Exi.... thought the background music(?) was waaaay too loud and somewhat annoying however
I have the T1600m FCS HOTAS and moved to it from the T.Flight HOTAS X. I would have bought the X52 but, at the time I was looking, the quality control was a hot topic to say the least. The X55/56 (quality control issues aside) and Warthog are really nice sticks, but my hands are on the small side and it's hard to use them.
The I like the throttle, with no issues for 2 years now. I only use the paddles for forward/backward navigation in the menus but I find the layout of the rest of the buttons and the hats to be great for me and I've refined my layout over time to really work well. My current layout has all the functions I need quickly on the throttle except for the triggers, pips, target lock and next fire group that are on the stick. I have setup curves on the 4 way analog mini stick on the throttle and I really love rip around outposts using the thrusters.
The stick is way better than the T.Flight HOTAS X as it is very accurate and with the TARGET software I can really work the curves to give me great control. Button refinement helps make this stick work well for me and it is just the right size for my hand.
The base mounted buttons are pretty useless, on the right side they are used to deploy hardpoints, lights, cargo bay system and gal map and one recenters the HMD. All functions that are not repetitive or overly time critical so I it works well without interrupting the flow of using the stick or I can activate the hardpoints with my pinky easily. On the left side I don't use them at all as it would interrupt my hand being on the stick. But I love the stick.
To get around the limited amount of usable buttons I use an Orbweaver since I already owned one. I place it along side the throttle just like the setup in Elite and works very well, the buttons are easy to find even in VR. I have been using one of these (originally a Nostromo from Belkin, that was made by Razor) since playing Battlefield Bad Company 2 and COD Modern Warfare and love them. I can't play an FPS shooter without one and it really adds to the feel of immersion in Elite.
I also have the TFRP pedals which I like quite a bit as well. I was starting to get some issues with carpal tunnel using the twist on the sticks (that dang SRV really tore me up!!!) so I decided to get a set of pedals to see if it would help and it did. I didn't want to spend a heap on pedals, in case I didn't like them or it took too long to get used to them, but I took to them like a duck to water. I've had these longer than the HOTAS , and they've held up well.
Some people say they are cheaply made, but I haven't an issue with any of them for 2 years now. I feel I've gotten my monies worth out of them, anyway, good review, I enjoyed it.
Also worth mentioning is that the t16000 also has a bundle that gives you pedals for a pretty decent price, so the t16000 is very nice for those first getting into the game.
The t16000 has ridiculously few buttons it, and reaching for the base buttons is a pain
Bought a Logitech X56. I gave it a go since Logi has taken over for Saitek. Read alot about these products when it was "MadCatz" and they failed regularly, but apparently Logitech has sorted out much of the problems. Took it back to the shop the day after. Reason was the rudder-axis was not working properly. I now own a VKB Gladiator and I am very pleased with it. Doesn't feel cheap as the X56 did. It actually has good ergonomics unlike the X56 which has the most awkward button setup on top of the stick. Can't reach all buttons without lifting my hand if I don't want to touch all the other hat-keys while doing so. My VKB does not have 100 4-way hats, but for the lack of such buttons, I just buy myself a good throttlequadrant with such buttons instead. Be shure to read reviews on common failures on the sticks and be shure to try them out to see if it fits your hand before buying it
Wow! we completely disagree 😂
Had the x52. flimsy and uncomfortable. Had the x56. flimsy, uncomfortable and super hard throttle. Loved the t.flight! Cheap, comfortable and functional. Doesn’t require a reverse button.
Now I’m on the t.16000m fcs purely for the comfort of the stick.
Guess we got different hands, as no “saitek” product ever fit me :)
Yep, as I said it's a very subjective thing to try to review - and to be clear my main issues with the T16000M were the throttle (flimsy, terrible button layout, hated the slide mechanism) and the placement of the buttons on the base of the stick, which are basically unusable. I was a fan of the T.Flight for the money for sure.
Ye, the T16000m is basically down to comfort for me :) The setup is far from great. the x56 was disappointing tho.
As for everything that relates to ergonomics, it’s down preference. You can recommend a e.g. a mouse for tech, value and functions, but it doesn’t matter if it don’t fit your hand :)
thanks for great content!
You're most welcome, thanks for the kind words and debate. I do totally agree on the X56 and comfort/ergonomics - I liked how many inputs it had, especially the throttle, but found it possibly the last comfortable and the second cheapest feeling. No question to my hands the X52 was the most comfortable with the Warthog being a very very close second.
The t16000m was originally built as a stand alone ambidextrous stick, in which case the symetrical button layout makes a lot of sense, the throttle, i like it, but the one button that i use for reverse is hard to reach, the paddles i find seem to really suit navigating the in ship panels but serve no other purpose in elite.
@@davidpritchard7802 i use the paddles to thrust forward and backward when im docking or dogfighting, its analogue so its great for small trotle inputs
Virpil does have some sticks with twist, the twist is in the stick not the base.
I have the T16000 Hotas and like it for the most part. I don't find the paddles on the throttle to be odd, however, I think they should have angled the side with the thumb buttons on it to make them easier to reach. That said, I have not tried others. This one was the right price purchase was made on that and reviews vs the x56
That one thumb button on the very bottom is a little awkward to reach, yeah.
With the x 52 I am definitely mapping my fsd under the safe switch it just feels natural for me
I have had a CH set for what must be going on 16+ years.
Exactly, and in 16 more they'll still be working. I think I got mine in 2009, there aren't even wear marks from close to daily usage.
It's a shame to think someone would pass on them because they don't have gaudy racing stripes and other flashy non-sense, or because "plastic". They make all their gaming peripherals using the same industrial materials that go into the various controls they build for heavy machinery operation. If I recall, I believe CH will replace them if they ever fail, or maybe I'm thinking about how they would convert a set to usb for free if you sent it to them.
Though, I do wish there were some toggle switches built in, lol.
@@a10miletooth Only reason I passed on the CH set was that they didn't have enough controls for my liking. For me, the less I have to use the keyboard, the more immersed I am in the game.
@@ChozoSR388 you can set them up using the software where every button can have up to 3 functions. That's 45 buttons each not including the 8-way hats. What could you be doing that requires more than that?! In games like E:D where a combination key press can be mapped it isn't necessary to use the software at all.
Were you not aware of the software or just prefer having more physical things to put your fingers on? Totally understandable if that's the case, I've considered getting a button box (or two) for that very reason.
Yes every hat on the Ch system is basically 4 buttons. The amount of buttons is ridiculous and you can control elite dangerous completely in vr without keyboard or voice commands.
Is it the same model that's shown in the video? I'm looking at my first hotas to get ready for SW Squadrons, Star Citizen, and getting back into ED, and it seems CH comes highly recommended but I want to make sure I get the right one.
a good medium price setup is a vkb gladiator nxt with a twcs throttle
Surprising to hear a recommendation of the X52 (which has a history of poor quality control) over the T16000m (which has a history of high accuracy for the price).
X52 is my favourite cause of the layout and design... Quality is bad tho. Especially on potentiometers. Using electrical cleaner helps, but it shouldn't be like that.
@@clarion-z2929 I'm in the market, so it's your experience to go with thrustmaster verses x 52 ?
@@ronaldwatson1951 personally, x52 is my choice. Even with the poor build quality. It's more about your preference. :) There is no right stick for everyone
@@clarion-z2929 thanks for your response and candor.
I use the x 52 since 2018 i had never problems with it i think its one of the best flight sticks out there
And I agree - it's funny as someone will tell you every single one that I listed "sux ass", etc. as you're almost always only going to hear from the guys who are unhappy. I know guys that have had X52s for 10+ years and had a Warthog break the first day - when so many are made someone is gonna be unhappy aren't they?
@@Exigeous mine is from saitek not from logitech and on the box it says windows vista or higher 😂
Yeah, damn, that's a pretty old one.
I owned the X55 and X56 and loved them, but i could not recommend due to the poor build quality, in the space of over a 14 months I had to return the products on 3 occasions due to dead switches or axis issues. I gave up with this model and and bought the Warthog, other than lack of z axis twist I can find no faults with it.
I'm yet to purchase rudders and rely on a button to change the yaw and roll function
Wow, really, that surprises me given how much combat you do - I'm telling ya man get on it and get yourself some real pedals. I promise you that you'll be glad you did as I couldn't imagine not having them. If you're on a budget the older Thrustmasters are okay, those new ones look great but for $500 are they kidding? For less you can get the MFG Crosswinds or the "Slaw Device" pedals which both rock. I love my T.Rudders but would probably get one of the others if I was buying now.
First I had some ghost button issues with my old X52. Shortly followed by some broken cables inside the throttle. To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare. So, I bought the X56 with the hope that Logitech improved the quality. Now, I have what they call a tennis arm because of the very resistant z-axis of the stick. Besides, the throttle of the X56 is also much harder to slide, much propable because Logitech increased the resistance in order to prevent the cables to be bend to fast. I like the design, the buttons are all at the right places and I was hoping that the X56 will turn the trick. But I cannot really recommend it to anyone and might have to grasp the nettle and buy rudders.
@@noamc8417
"To change the cables was not an option, because the inside of the throttle is full of grease *and once you start with one cable you have to do them all, which would be a nightmare* "
...I did on my X-55 throttle which started failing after about 250 hours of use, and I had no intention to do it again after I found another axis failing again after 3 months
Luckily Virpil came out with their new throttle at that time, so had a good excuse to upgrade my HOTAS, now only to replace my combat rudders, where one of the brakepedal pots already failed after never using it
My story is almost the same. Got an x56, returned it 3 weeks later as the twist axis wouldn't return to center, 2 buttons on the stick and 3 on the throttle never worked. Terrible build quality. Got the warthog instead. Been using it 2 years without any issues.
I'm absolutely torn between the X52 Pro and the T16000M FCS. I hear so many good things and bad things about both constantly, it's really hard to make a choice.
Anyone got any advice?
me too, which one did you choose in the end?
@@mithrandir7372 I ended up choosing the T16000M FCS and couldn't be happier. The reason for this is both the X52 Pro and T16000M have a track record for breaking after a while, or just having issues in general, but while the X52 usually becomes completely unusable, the only issues the T16000M seems to have is the yaw stopping to work.
So I felt the Thrustmaster was a worthier risk. And frankly, I've had it for 3 months and it's absolutely great. And the throttle is amazing, so if after a year the joystick does break, I can just buy a new joystick from VKB or something and keep the throttle.
I haven't really had any issues, and I totally recommend it!
The only thing that made me slightly sad was that I do prefer the design of the X52 a little more, but I play in VR most of the time anyway so it doesn't matter.
I've played Flight Simulator 2020, Elite Dangerous and Star Wars Squadrons with it, and so far it's been great with all of them.
Sorry for the huge wall of text, but I hope this helps you!
@@drozthewolf Thanks for the information, surely I also end up choosing the t16000 for the same reasons as you, I also play the same games as you, so you helped me make the final decision.
Thanks again, and sorry for google translation
I totally disagree ... the X52 is pure junk, it will quit on you within a year and drive you crazy with it's lack of precision.
Seriously, save your money a bit longer and buy a better quality product ... stay away from ANYTHING with the name Saitek on it, you can thank me later.
PS: It's CH Products for me ... perfect in terms of price/quality and really up there in terms of precision and durability.
I have used my CH Stick, Throttle and pedals for about 8 years now, and this setup still works as smooth and reliable as the first day i plugged them in. Computers, screen, mouse and keyboards have come and gone but CH prevails over time and use.
They got bought my logitech over a year ago
I agree. I bought an X52 a few months ago and have never been able to get it to work. When I plug it in, the mouse pointer rises to the top of the screen and stays there. On the few occasions that the mouse behaved, the stick would suddenly reverse it's pitch programming - makes flying a helicopter pretty tough. It may be a software problem. I can't tell. But out the door it goes - pure junk. Now it's hard to know what to buy. $500 is a lot for a game controller.
Have had my Saitek X52 Pro for at least five years. Purchased two; one for me and one for a housemate, as he didn't have money to burn. He had a switch problem within two weeks (although I never checked whether he was trying to unsuccessfully reassign the "i" button, which I also have never been able to use for anything). Mine still works perfectly.
I have seen on Gumtree the CH products fighterstick for really low price, is it worth it?
i owned 3 different sets.. the one i still love and use is the Thrustmaster T16000m FCS!
we see ..not everyone has the same taste .. builtquality is excelent maybe you got a bad model.. anyways Good video!
Yeah I've had it for about a year now and it's the tits!
I've been flying the X-56 for a while, and I love it. May be I got lucky but I have 0 QC issues. The 2 extra analog sticks make thrust super precise and landing very easy, and the plethora of buttons make VR flight a breeze
For anyone thinking of shelling out over 100$ on a fancy new Hotas, you should know that I've been using a keyboard and Logitech extreme 3D pro happily for about 2 years. Want to know how much the joystick cost me? $2.50. Yep. I got it at a thrift store for extremely cheap a long time ago and have had no issues whatsoever. Before you go out and empty your wallet for immersion, check your local savers and you might just find something that will work surprisingly well for the price of a snickers.
Back in my day it was a ZX Spectrum and A,S,D,X,O,P.
Hardcore.
I use the x52 Pro and i've had it 2 years no problems. I did mod it by adding neodymium magnets to make it more sensitive so I don't have to move it around very much at all. The end result is that I don't put any strain on it and it works really well. Can't imagine what I'd replace it with if it broke. (fingers crossed) If only the Warthog had twist! The Virpil stuff looks NUTS!
I got an x52 used on facebook for 80 bucks and then I got elite dangerous and voice attack. In vr this is the game I have dreamed about since I was a kid .
Jason D I totally agree. With voice attack and VR E:D is amazing.
Love the tflight 1600 tbh, felt it was better than the warthog(owned both)
theres nothing better than vkb sim or virpil sticks.. rest of them is piece of plastic shits
"Ambidextrious"
This is one of those subjects that make horse races interesting. Ask any 2 HOTAS users and you're likely to get 3 opinions.
My first HOTAS was the T-16000 which I quickly considered a mistake. Weak materials, poor design and more than half the buttons are essentially unusable.
Why put buttons on the stick base AT ALL? The point of a HOTAS is to maximize ergonomic placement, accessibility and economy of movement.
The throttle had no midpoint detent feature to allow bi-directional thrust control to have a zero thrust "home" position. That was a problem that I found supremely irritating.
My second HOTAS was the Saitek (blue marking) version X-56 Rhino.
The stick worked out very nicely and having hands that are a good size fit, I can't complain about the fixed palm-edge feature too much... It could use a little better contour but, meh.
The pinky button is a little bit obstructed but nothing severe.
My only real wish for the stick is that the secondary trigger button should be about 5mm taller to making reaching over the POV with my thumb arched, a little less crampy. Holding that button down becomes annoying while pulse-wave scanning.
The X-56 Rhino Throttle is a whole other story. It had internal cross-talk in the electronics that sometimes caused two mapped keys to be activated by pressing the same button. I initially thought I was just bumping into buttons I didn't mean to but this turned out not to be the case. I documented the problem to reproducibility and for my trouble Saitek deleted my product review from Amazon.
My response was to take their products completely off the table for consideration for future purchase or recommendation. A shame because the overall layout and feel was excellent.
Currently considering the Virpil M-50s and willing to budget a bit to get them.
I was thinking earlier about just filling the gap by adding a Warthog Throttle to my Rhino Stick and calling it good, but the Virpil has a much more robust construction and I've played with second-best.
Now I just want the best I can manage and Virpil appears to be just that.
With the warthog i use the pinky button ( not the lever) mapped to switch to yaw ( mapped to roll ) that feels ok to me.
Game sound in this was insanely loud
Taphosthewarlock It sounded fine for me.
Man, your videos are actually on another level. Quality content
It's H.O.T.A.S. not H.O.T.I.S
I have to got to add my support to the TM 16000. I did quite a lot of research on the HOTAS available and took the opportunity to experience friends HOTAs setups. However, having purchased the TM 16000 I really enjoy it and get great immersive game experience.
Great now i'm actually considering getting a HOTAS for Elite on my Xbox. Before this Video i was set on that i didn't really need a HOTAS and i don't need a HOTAS but now i really want a Thrustmaster TFlight Hotas, i'll probably ask for it when Christmas comes around. Thanks Obama - I mean Exigeous.
You're welcome, sorry for being your local crack, err, Elite dealer :D
Unfortunately on console the only option is the T.Flight Hotas. I use one and love it, though. Way better than the controller. Just can't beat that immersed feeling. There are some issues with grinding from the fulcrum the tighter it's wound, but it's not really noticeable with headphones. Would definitely recommend to beginners like i was.
Not a bad roundup, but the one thing you don't go into is the feel of the stick. Some are lighter than others and matter for different games.
I agree on the Hotas T Flight. I have recently purchesed the T Flight X (the one for PC/PS3) and had no problems with it (for a beginner in HOTAS :D) I mapped my buttons to my preference and in like 30 minutes to 1 Hour i was allready used to it and was going all crazy in Elite Dangerous and World of Warplanes. I was lucky and got it for 30 euros from someone that used it once or twice. I could have waited a bit for the T16000 but was not sure if i would get used to a Hotas and giving hundreds of euros and then not using it... so yeah will stick with T Flight for now :)