@@michaelsebi they changed a lot in later patches. In early versions if you romance her but turn an illithid she will dump you no matter what. Now she doesn't!
It's implied in older lore that Illithids are what humans and humanoids become far into the future when the universe is dying. So there's no reason why they wouldn't have souls. The old lore says that Illithids traveled back in time to save themselves from extinction and it's implied that they created a predestination paradox where they will be responsible for the evolution of their kind in the future.
@@greetingsargonian actually, yes there is! The mind flayers have some kind of subraces. The Illithid are the standard. They are the common type of mind flayer. Strong psychic squidward, with four tentacles sprouting from their heads like beards. There is a chance, though, after the ceremorphosis, to a Ulitharid be born instead. The are the super psichic squidward. More powerful psionic powers and given enough time, they break from the control from an elder brain with six tentacles instead of four (four normal and two longer ones). The mega brains fear them because of this and ultimately shuns them. They have kind of a cane with them, and when they grow powerfull enough and break from the mega brain, they go away from the colony, take some illithids with them and use that cane to crack open their skull, remove, and become a mega brain themselves.
@thiagovilelagabriel2728 oh these can be seen in bg2 and throne of bhaal! I never know they are a sub race and not like profession-based higher hierarchy because game never explained that but they are stronger for sure! Throne of bhaal even had some sort of vampire+illithid creature
@@greetingsargoniandidn’t know about vampiric mind flayers. Cool thougt. For undead illithid I only knew about the Alhoon (lich mind flayer) that have a intreresting aproach on this debate about souls and mind flayers.
It's a bit complicated. If you play as Gale and transform, Mystra confirms that the change cost him his soul, though it is within her power to restore it. A romanced Karlach who transforms loses that spark we love about her; her memories remain intact, but it's clearly not her anymore. Yet if Tav/Durge become illithid and imprison themselves, Withers/Jergal (who as God of Death should know souls better than anyone) states "something glimmerest within thee. Something is not lost.", and if they choose to kill themselves, you get this scene.
Interesting, I interpret that Karlach doesn't lose the soul either. I had a romanced illithid Karlach who never break up with you after transformation, and her way of feeding was basically going to hospital and offering to euthanize hopeless cases. As for Mystra, I agree, a bit contradictory, but still interesting that ceremorphasis didn't destroyed and erased Gale's soul, so there was something to restore anyway. I think in this game there are endless hints that the souls are not lost. We met Omeluum, we met the Emperor, if you become an illithid yourself there is still something there. Everyone believes that you will lose the souls but it is not the case. Also "appearances may change but this one I know" - withers says this to any illithid in the end, if he doesn't recognize the souls then what is it?
@@greetingsargonian So this maybe an older Dnd thing but it could be Illithid do not have souls but have spirits. Souls are a subcategory of spirits where you go with the cosmology of gods when you die. But if you reincarnate like Elves do then your not part of that cosmology as you return to the earth and are born again. Illithids have a kind of reincarnation where they are constantly in a time loop(the grand design). It could be that Withers is not considering spirits souls as you are no longer part of his domain.
@@nonenone5387 I am not really familiar with dnd lore further than videogames, so very well may be. If we are staying just in the BG 3 frame and look at it as a standalone thing it is very expected from the plot perspective - give that statement but then deconstruct it, a twist is bettering any story after all! If what you described is a dnd understanding of souls in general it adds to it, I never considered this from a point which god can collect what type of soul, but maybe Larian did. After all their previous game wasn't called Divinity for nothing))
@@nonenone5387 As an old DnD dude from what I understand Illithids have "Something like Souls". Can still be used for Soul related stuff like revival (with some spells) and some other things but too alien to be of use to the gods of Faerun as it goes "somewhere else".
@@nonenone5387 You might be on to something, yes. I was quite displeased when I heard Withers claim that "illithids do not have souls", because he is actually quite wrong. As intelligent, sapient, mortal beings, illithids absolutely SHOULD have souls. I'm not sure whether it was Larian or WotC who approved that line, but it actually contradicts existing lore from previous D&D editions. The confusion here is likely arising from the fact that, contrary to what some think, when a tadpole completes ceremorphosis and becomes a mind flayer, that new mind flayer is NOT actually the original host. The host dies during the transformation, and their soul goes on to their appropriate afterlife. The new mind flayer is a completely new creature, untethered to its previous host. In some VERY rare cases, the illithid may still recall something of the memories of their former host, but typically this fades rapidly within a few weeks (especially under the constant psychic indoctrination by the colony's Elder Brain). This means that the Emperor is NOT actually Balduran; it's an illithid that THINKS it is. (Although from the Emperor's point of view, it probably would maintain that there is no true difference since the continuity of consciousness means that, for all intents and purposes, it is Balduran.) But regardless, based on my own knowledge and years of experience as a DM, my own interpretation of this situation is probably as follows: Withers THINKS that illithids do not have souls, because he personally has never seen one, even in all his long existence as a deity. But he is wrong; they DO have souls. It's just that, after illithids die, their souls go on to somewhere unknown. The two most likely scenarios is that a) when illithids die, their souls travel to the closest thing they have to a deity, the god Ilsensine. Ilsensine is famously reclusive and inscrutable even by divine standards, so if he is receiving illithid souls in his realm, the Caverns of Endless Thought in the Plane of Concordant Opposition, it's no wonder nobody has ever seen them. Or b) the souls of illithids travel on even farther beyond the Outer Planes, to the place known as the Far Realm, home to ancient, unfathomable beings who existed long before the gods or even the Great Wheel existed. Who or what awaits the illithid souls there, or what happens to them afterwards, is anybody's guess. As for Tav themselves, it is unclear as to how they managed to hang on to their own soul after their transformation. Perhaps it's due to the Astral Tadpole, perhaps it's because of their divine heritage (if they were a DUrge), or perhaps Tav is just a statistical quirk, something that has never happened before and will never happen again.
I wound up doing this in my first play through. Character was a fundamentally good person but had a bit of an addiction to knowledge gain situation that lead to him volunteering for tentacle face duty both so that nobody else had to and because think of all he could learn. In the self-reflection moment of clarity afterwards, though, well he wasn’t willing to risk what he might do, so he made sure he couldn’t hurt anyone. Fun story, in your spirit form at the party, you can still move objects with some pretty amusing responses from the people seeing stuff just sort of floating around.
@@greetingsargonian dialogue options at the end of the game are weird for ending possibilities. One “wrong” selection and suddenly you can’t talk to Gale at the epilogue party lol
To those debating whether mind flayers have souls or not, the tadpoles in bg3 are unique because of the crown. So it is possible that the normal rules of illithid kind just don't apply the same.
@greetingsargonian But that doesn't mean he has a soul. It doesn't mean he is the same person he transformed from, and not just a new abomination that inherits some memories from its host.
@jogzyg2036 well that brings us to that "what counts as a soul" discussion. In the common sense he isn't a soulless husk, and we can only speculate how much does he have from the previous life. In other comments someone brought an interesting point that according to dnd rules souls are connected to what god can collect what type of soul. So illithids being from another world have nothing to collect for gods of this realm, however they have their own gods that collect their spirits after death. And here we have Jergal being able to see your soul even though he kinda wasn't supposed to. It may or may not be connected to the nether magic. But it's certainly pleasant to believe that you don't lose everything))
As I understand, mind flayer souls arent collectable to non-mindflayer gods. So when withers is saying they dont have souls he's really just being a hater 😂
@@fisch37 It becomes something different. A Lot of Soul related things simply don't work anymore implying it became something "abominable" and alien but for example an Illithid can still be revived with the right spells. Fun fact, that is the case for everything with the Abomination Subtype.
@@Shear666 do you have a citation for that last part? It sounds like an older edition thing and I'd be curious to learn more. That being said I don't like that concept very much. I'd buy it if the tadpoles consumed the souls or something, but then how would the Emperor make any sense? _I guess it'd work if the tadpole was imitating him, but that's just pulling stuff out of thin air_
@@fisch37 I wonder if perhaps it's just that only renegade illithids (Omeluum, the Emperor, Tav-flayer, etc) participate in the standard afterlife structure? Considering the constant mental connection with their community and its elder brain, and the fact that older editions of canon explicitly state that most mind flayers wish to unite with/be incorporated into the elder brain after their death.... maybe that's where the supposedly missing souls end up?
@@rhuali-6006 The prayer of the Absolute says that they are "one soul" which I take to mean that all the souls of Ilithids bound to a Netherbrain merge into a single Netherbrain supersoul but that a renegade ilithid seperated from the hive mind may retain an independent soul.
@@greetingsargonian The same argument can be made about large language models like chat gpt. Just because it looks and behaves like it has a soul, doesnt mean it has one. The tadpoles our companions get inflicted with were influenced by netherese magic, so, we cant really say that they are regular mind flayer parasites, the game tells us time and time again that this is not the case. If you want in your own head canon that illithids have a sould, you can think that. However, everything points to the contrary.
@@gorgit well no, chat gpt is obviously an artificial entity, not a living being, although I understand what you are trying to say. Then again, Omeluum and Orpheus didn't have the nether tadpole. Also there is that whole conspiracy of the death gods. Why would Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal even want the Absolute to happen. Withers thinks at first that all the illithids that were made will have no souls so nothing to collect. And gods here live to collect souls. So I don't think it is only Tav
@@greetingsargonian what Im saying is, there is no reason to believe that omeluum and the emperor have a soul. They act like they have one, but so does a large language model, it just tricks you by mimicking. Its similiar for your standard mindflayers, at least in dnd lore. Tav and the others have netherese magic influenced tadpoles, so their transformation cant be viewed as the transformation the emperor for example went through. As for, why the dead three supported the absolute: they were almost powerless at this time, so getting your chosens to enslave a world ending army and listening to your command, could bring them back immeasurable power.
@gorgit well, I disagree, there are multiple reasons to believe that it's not that simple. The whole thing is built with a twist in mind. Everyone talks about mimicking and all that from the start, but it becomes debunked with time. In the end Withers will tell that he knows the person who is your illithid, "appearances may change but this one I know" - same phrase for everyone including the emperor and Orpheus who certainly did not had the nether tadpole. I also think the "true soul" is a tongue and cheek to that whole "soulless" concept
Illithids don't have gods. They only have elder brains. They came from the Far Realm, they are alien to material, upper, or lower planes of existence. If they have souls, and I believe they do, their souls just don't obey the same rules, they don't go the standard way of mortal souls to be judged by gods.
Actually, in canon lore Illithid brains are fed to the colony Elder brain when one dies, so Illithid religion actually states that they get absorbed into their Elder brain's consciousness when they die. The secret all elder brains keep is that they actually just absorb the psionic power and then discard the rest.
Withers explicitly state Mind Flayers do not possess apolistic souls, they have spirits (which all dnd creatures have except Halflings, Humans, Demi-Human [these are half elves, genasi, assimar], Orcs, and Dwarves) this means they endlessly reincarnate after spending a brief period in the afterlife.
My new personal theory which I’m respectfully stealing from someone else is fairly simple and makes sense game wise. The absolute absorbs all illithed souls, so withers isn’t wrong, but when tav turns into one, because the absolute is destroyed in such a short time after transforming + Orpheus power, u maintain ur soul due to the absolute not absorbing it. The reason this makes sense to me is that the absolute is made from THOUGHT itself, where else can u get thoughts from other then souls, and when the parasite transforms u, it seems u have a sense of self for a short time because of the crowns magic Take the new born illithed under the Windmill in act 3, undeniably he has a soul, omelum has a soul, the emperor who LOVES being an illithed definitely has a soul, u can’t love smth on top of having passion, interest and goals without some type of internal motives / thoughts of deeper desires. Finally take Orpheus when he transforms he literally tells u, right before u kill him at the end of the game to give him a merciful death, that he doesn’t know how much longer he can maintain his soul because of the conflict within his brain and the pain of being a ghaik. In turn I think there’s undeniable evidence that illthids CAN have souls but under specific circumstances and I think tav/durge fulfill those circumstances
@@joshuaDaniel-y2d I think Omeluum probably the most interesting case. He is an ordinary illithid who has no idea about the Absolute conspiracy, modified tadpoles and even missed all the nautiloids. Yet he clearly has a soul, and not just not a part of a hive mind, he refuses to participate. So I think the whole no souls thing is a big misconception. I also got a lot of interesting comments here, about the understanding what actually counts as a soul. So, in dnd interpretation a soul considered something that can be collected by a certain god. Illithids have their own gods who collect whatever is left after an illithid death. Gods of Faerun usually can't do that. Now we have also a more common understanding which is "a soul is what makes you you". So that's why in the start we think oh, after you turn, this part will be gone, best case scenario a new being will have some memories, but that's it. And during the game we see both understandings being challenged. We see multiple illithids who didn't lost their souls in the common understanding, and we also have a lot of interesting interactions with Withers aka Jergal the scribe of souls, which peaks in this ending, where he admits that he was sure he will not see your soul after you died, since everyone thought that Faerun gods aren't suppose to, but yet here we are
I doubt this proves illithids in general have souls, it seems more like we’re an odd exception to the norm. If all illithids had souls Withers would not be so surprised
Death: “strange. No illithid prior has ever had a soul. None have arrived here in this realm before now. Your presence is unexpected, almost inconceivable, and could very well shake the foundation of everything to its very core. I fucking love it!”
Yeah, Ilithids have souls. They have to have souls because they aren't outsiders, however, they don't have the souls of the host. That's where the confusion happens.
Elder brains are capable of protecting their mind into the Astral Plane. This wouldn't be possible without a soul. Ilithids can become undead and learn magic. This requires some spark. And most important Ulrsliths cen become Liches which is an act of great evil made possible only by corrupting and containing your soul.
i always thought this was the best ending, particular for the dark urge. it really did have to be you that made the sacrifice to become an illithid, karlach didn't deserve to lose herself, orpheus had an enslaved people to fight for and the emperor couldn't be trusted, and beyond those practical reasons you're the leader so you're responsible for the party, not to mentioning durge having a lot of sins to make up for. as for why i think dying is the best option it's just the most realistic, if you don't die you'll be forced to feed on minds which will slowly wipe out your own mind anyway (that doesn't change with having a soul either), so in my mind it's better to lose your life than lose yourself. also it's just very fitting, you'd already righted the wrongs you caused but it was one last act of penance along with sticking one more finger to bhaal
Player character mindflayer is an anomaly not the standard In other words, you have a soul that doesn't mean other mindflayers have a soul Which is why withers is surprised at the end
@greetingsargonian ones separate from the elder brain yes but that absolutely doesn't mean they have souls again the player character is a special case because they have a soul we are told specifically the emperor doesn't have one by withers and he's also a special case meaning your logic doesn't hold true
@TheinternetArchaeologist and yet Withers recognized Emperor if he joins the last battle. He treats him the same as any of your companions or you. I believe the game tries to convince us about no souls thing but it deconstructs as the playthrough goes
@greetingsargonian so what that again does not indicate a soul it indicates withers doesn't treat him differently because he's soulless and he literally tells you he is soulless you can point out the exception and pretend you are proving a rule but im going to pick apart your fallacious logic and the fact that you are objectively wrong on your blanket statement... you are wrong sorry not sorry your inability to come to terms with that but all you are proving here is you can't think logically
the idea is that you died in the transformation and whoever takes over your body is the larva in this logic you are already dead when you are illithid but in this ending it suggests that his soul was transformed along with his body
I thought the transformation straight up kills the orignial person and the mind flayer larva absorbs their memories, feelings etc and basically creates a perfect copy of the original person that is basically a mimic while the soul has passed on but that ineed still begs the question if the larva had a soul to begin with.
@@kebek3834 I believe that was the canon answer based on general Forgotten Realms knowledge, but the storytelling in the world is based on the characters' knowledge of the world, which means it could be wrong. What we see in BG3 suggests that it is indeed wrong
My speculation based on nothing: I think dnd lore had it since forever because it was a fun concept that illithids are so scary that they eat your soul boo. But if you think about it it is kinda dumb, and what is the soul anyway to begin with, do larvas have it, does mega brain have it, etc.
Essentially it seems like the soul of the original person escapes as it would on death, while the body is now a new Illithid lifeform but with no soul of its own. And the soul cannot return to the body of the mindflayer with resurrection spells etc because its too far gone or alien for the original soul. Its kind of how vampires in other media are described, where the soul moves on and the body becomes its own being, bereft of the original soul and now an undying cursed monster.
Actually that was the first ending I got I was doing a evil play through but by the beginning of act three in the interlude I decided to do a redemption arc for my character
I love how people are just posting day 1 content that isn't even that rare or hard to get and labeling it "NEW RARE PATCH 7 ENDING!" I remember when people were using this ending to help justify that Larian was gonna make a DLC despite the fact that they blew that idea off only a week after release. (And have never made a DLC for any game they've made previously.)
If you romance karlach and she dies while you transform he outright tells you that you will meet her again. If your soul is gone that wouldn't be possible.
There's a rule in the multi-varied world of Dungeons & Dragons, which has been touched by SO many writers: if anything is canon, the largest and oldest bodies of work prevail. If a single sourcebook (or game like Baldur's Gate 3) goes against the prevailing lore, that is not considered canon, but optional for a Dungeon Master. This is one of those cases.
Lame af lore tbh. Just completely throws away the sacrifice you make when you become one and doesn't make sense. The transformation practically kills you
becoming an illithid doesn't suddenly become harmless if you have a soul, unless you immediately die like this you're forced to feed on brains to survive, and every brain you consume is essentially combining the minds of your victims with your own so overtime your actual self will slip away until you're a completely different person. it's still a massive sacrifice that you're making, and while the lore isn't super clear i do think there's a few potential explanations (one of my theories is that the dead 3 had lied about them being soulless and somehow stolen their souls for power, which is what withers figured out and why he was roasting them in the epilogue cutscene)
This is such a stupid retcon. It was great as it is, i played whole game as illithid hater and when in the end i chose to sacrifice my very sou and become this abomination l for the sake of others, it felt dramatic. Now it's just "hey, you still have the soul btw" like it makes this whole sacrifice pointless. Not every story has to end with happy end,. Larian should stop doing everything to make player feel good about themselves.
Going to prison as an illithid ending th-cam.com/video/H8f8S_EvjyY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0KI6nVp5HxmtnXHS
To see Lae'zel of all people saying " NO ! " to a Mindflayer's death is a testimony to the journey and development all the characters went through.
@@michaelsebi they changed a lot in later patches. In early versions if you romance her but turn an illithid she will dump you no matter what. Now she doesn't!
It's rng any companion will say it
what development. its literally fan service LOL
@@foxmulder7436wut you mean?
@@Jdjdjdujakzgsha She just goes wherever the player wants, fan service
Tav: I have ceremorphed! I have no soul and will lose who i once was... Dying is my only option.
Death: Nuh uh
Tav: The f*ck you mean "Nuh. Uh."?
@@daedaluswriting9350 no notes
It's implied in older lore that Illithids are what humans and humanoids become far into the future when the universe is dying. So there's no reason why they wouldn't have souls.
The old lore says that Illithids traveled back in time to save themselves from extinction and it's implied that they created a predestination paradox where they will be responsible for the evolution of their kind in the future.
@@KingOfMadCows oh that's interesting! Was there anything how the mega brain was created? Can an illithid become a mega brain?
@@greetingsargonian actually, yes there is! The mind flayers have some kind of subraces. The Illithid are the standard. They are the common type of mind flayer. Strong psychic squidward, with four tentacles sprouting from their heads like beards. There is a chance, though, after the ceremorphosis, to a Ulitharid be born instead. The are the super psichic squidward. More powerful psionic powers and given enough time, they break from the control from an elder brain with six tentacles instead of four (four normal and two longer ones). The mega brains fear them because of this and ultimately shuns them. They have kind of a cane with them, and when they grow powerfull enough and break from the mega brain, they go away from the colony, take some illithids with them and use that cane to crack open their skull, remove, and become a mega brain themselves.
@thiagovilelagabriel2728 oh these can be seen in bg2 and throne of bhaal! I never know they are a sub race and not like profession-based higher hierarchy because game never explained that but they are stronger for sure! Throne of bhaal even had some sort of vampire+illithid creature
@@greetingsargoniandidn’t know about vampiric mind flayers. Cool thougt. For undead illithid I only knew about the Alhoon (lich mind flayer) that have a intreresting aproach on this debate about souls and mind flayers.
@thiagovilelagabriel2728 what dnd lore says about him?
It's a bit complicated. If you play as Gale and transform, Mystra confirms that the change cost him his soul, though it is within her power to restore it. A romanced Karlach who transforms loses that spark we love about her; her memories remain intact, but it's clearly not her anymore. Yet if Tav/Durge become illithid and imprison themselves, Withers/Jergal (who as God of Death should know souls better than anyone) states "something glimmerest within thee. Something is not lost.", and if they choose to kill themselves, you get this scene.
Interesting, I interpret that Karlach doesn't lose the soul either. I had a romanced illithid Karlach who never break up with you after transformation, and her way of feeding was basically going to hospital and offering to euthanize hopeless cases. As for Mystra, I agree, a bit contradictory, but still interesting that ceremorphasis didn't destroyed and erased Gale's soul, so there was something to restore anyway. I think in this game there are endless hints that the souls are not lost. We met Omeluum, we met the Emperor, if you become an illithid yourself there is still something there. Everyone believes that you will lose the souls but it is not the case. Also "appearances may change but this one I know" - withers says this to any illithid in the end, if he doesn't recognize the souls then what is it?
@@greetingsargonian
So this maybe an older Dnd thing but it could be Illithid do not have souls but have spirits. Souls are a subcategory of spirits where you go with the cosmology of gods when you die. But if you reincarnate like Elves do then your not part of that cosmology as you return to the earth and are born again.
Illithids have a kind of reincarnation where they are constantly in a time loop(the grand design). It could be that Withers is not considering spirits souls as you are no longer part of his domain.
@@nonenone5387 I am not really familiar with dnd lore further than videogames, so very well may be. If we are staying just in the BG 3 frame and look at it as a standalone thing it is very expected from the plot perspective - give that statement but then deconstruct it, a twist is bettering any story after all!
If what you described is a dnd understanding of souls in general it adds to it, I never considered this from a point which god can collect what type of soul, but maybe Larian did. After all their previous game wasn't called Divinity for nothing))
@@nonenone5387 As an old DnD dude from what I understand Illithids have "Something like Souls". Can still be used for Soul related stuff like revival (with some spells) and some other things but too alien to be of use to the gods of Faerun as it goes "somewhere else".
@@nonenone5387 You might be on to something, yes. I was quite displeased when I heard Withers claim that "illithids do not have souls", because he is actually quite wrong. As intelligent, sapient, mortal beings, illithids absolutely SHOULD have souls. I'm not sure whether it was Larian or WotC who approved that line, but it actually contradicts existing lore from previous D&D editions. The confusion here is likely arising from the fact that, contrary to what some think, when a tadpole completes ceremorphosis and becomes a mind flayer, that new mind flayer is NOT actually the original host. The host dies during the transformation, and their soul goes on to their appropriate afterlife. The new mind flayer is a completely new creature, untethered to its previous host. In some VERY rare cases, the illithid may still recall something of the memories of their former host, but typically this fades rapidly within a few weeks (especially under the constant psychic indoctrination by the colony's Elder Brain). This means that the Emperor is NOT actually Balduran; it's an illithid that THINKS it is. (Although from the Emperor's point of view, it probably would maintain that there is no true difference since the continuity of consciousness means that, for all intents and purposes, it is Balduran.)
But regardless, based on my own knowledge and years of experience as a DM, my own interpretation of this situation is probably as follows: Withers THINKS that illithids do not have souls, because he personally has never seen one, even in all his long existence as a deity. But he is wrong; they DO have souls. It's just that, after illithids die, their souls go on to somewhere unknown. The two most likely scenarios is that a) when illithids die, their souls travel to the closest thing they have to a deity, the god Ilsensine. Ilsensine is famously reclusive and inscrutable even by divine standards, so if he is receiving illithid souls in his realm, the Caverns of Endless Thought in the Plane of Concordant Opposition, it's no wonder nobody has ever seen them. Or b) the souls of illithids travel on even farther beyond the Outer Planes, to the place known as the Far Realm, home to ancient, unfathomable beings who existed long before the gods or even the Great Wheel existed. Who or what awaits the illithid souls there, or what happens to them afterwards, is anybody's guess.
As for Tav themselves, it is unclear as to how they managed to hang on to their own soul after their transformation. Perhaps it's due to the Astral Tadpole, perhaps it's because of their divine heritage (if they were a DUrge), or perhaps Tav is just a statistical quirk, something that has never happened before and will never happen again.
I wound up doing this in my first play through. Character was a fundamentally good person but had a bit of an addiction to knowledge gain situation that lead to him volunteering for tentacle face duty both so that nobody else had to and because think of all he could learn. In the self-reflection moment of clarity afterwards, though, well he wasn’t willing to risk what he might do, so he made sure he couldn’t hurt anyone. Fun story, in your spirit form at the party, you can still move objects with some pretty amusing responses from the people seeing stuff just sort of floating around.
@@VestigialLung you got the party after that ending?? I got this, then credits
@@greetingsargonian same :/
@@greetingsargonian THIS KINDA INSANE!!
@@tylergracyne2511 yeah I am surprised too. For me it is always like that, maybe it was a bug?
@@greetingsargonian dialogue options at the end of the game are weird for ending possibilities. One “wrong” selection and suddenly you can’t talk to Gale at the epilogue party lol
"Bro just wait until that priest of yours revives you, you seem to have a soul so she will feel that can be done."
@voodooozo3755 😆
To those debating whether mind flayers have souls or not, the tadpoles in bg3 are unique because of the crown. So it is possible that the normal rules of illithid kind just don't apply the same.
@@jogzyg2036 well, looks like there is something there still! You get the nether tadpole and also can get this ending
@greetingsargonian exactly. My point is if this were a normal tadpole you'd be gone. Soul go bye bye.
@jogzyg2036 Omeluum had the regular one I suppose but he still was himself
@greetingsargonian But that doesn't mean he has a soul. It doesn't mean he is the same person he transformed from, and not just a new abomination that inherits some memories from its host.
@jogzyg2036 well that brings us to that "what counts as a soul" discussion. In the common sense he isn't a soulless husk, and we can only speculate how much does he have from the previous life. In other comments someone brought an interesting point that according to dnd rules souls are connected to what god can collect what type of soul. So illithids being from another world have nothing to collect for gods of this realm, however they have their own gods that collect their spirits after death. And here we have Jergal being able to see your soul even though he kinda wasn't supposed to. It may or may not be connected to the nether magic. But it's certainly pleasant to believe that you don't lose everything))
As I understand, mind flayer souls arent collectable to non-mindflayer gods. So when withers is saying they dont have souls he's really just being a hater 😂
Yeah that makes sense. The whole "people's souls vanish when they become mind flayers" thing really does not track at all
@@fisch37 It becomes something different. A Lot of Soul related things simply don't work anymore implying it became something "abominable" and alien but for example an Illithid can still be revived with the right spells. Fun fact, that is the case for everything with the Abomination Subtype.
@@Shear666 do you have a citation for that last part? It sounds like an older edition thing and I'd be curious to learn more.
That being said I don't like that concept very much. I'd buy it if the tadpoles consumed the souls or something, but then how would the Emperor make any sense?
_I guess it'd work if the tadpole was imitating him, but that's just pulling stuff out of thin air_
@@fisch37 I wonder if perhaps it's just that only renegade illithids (Omeluum, the Emperor, Tav-flayer, etc) participate in the standard afterlife structure? Considering the constant mental connection with their community and its elder brain, and the fact that older editions of canon explicitly state that most mind flayers wish to unite with/be incorporated into the elder brain after their death.... maybe that's where the supposedly missing souls end up?
@@rhuali-6006 The prayer of the Absolute says that they are "one soul" which I take to mean that all the souls of Ilithids bound to a Netherbrain merge into a single Netherbrain supersoul but that a renegade ilithid seperated from the hive mind may retain an independent soul.
Illithids as a "species" have no soul, Withers here is acknowledging that an inexplicable exception is happening with Tav.
and yet all the others we've met seem to have souls as well. Omeluum, Emperor, any companion that turns, even Orpheus
@@greetingsargonian The same argument can be made about large language models like chat gpt. Just because it looks and behaves like it has a soul, doesnt mean it has one. The tadpoles our companions get inflicted with were influenced by netherese magic, so, we cant really say that they are regular mind flayer parasites, the game tells us time and time again that this is not the case.
If you want in your own head canon that illithids have a sould, you can think that. However, everything points to the contrary.
@@gorgit well no, chat gpt is obviously an artificial entity, not a living being, although I understand what you are trying to say. Then again, Omeluum and Orpheus didn't have the nether tadpole.
Also there is that whole conspiracy of the death gods. Why would Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal even want the Absolute to happen. Withers thinks at first that all the illithids that were made will have no souls so nothing to collect. And gods here live to collect souls. So I don't think it is only Tav
@@greetingsargonian what Im saying is, there is no reason to believe that omeluum and the emperor have a soul. They act like they have one, but so does a large language model, it just tricks you by mimicking. Its similiar for your standard mindflayers, at least in dnd lore. Tav and the others have netherese magic influenced tadpoles, so their transformation cant be viewed as the transformation the emperor for example went through. As for, why the dead three supported the absolute: they were almost powerless at this time, so getting your chosens to enslave a world ending army and listening to your command, could bring them back immeasurable power.
@gorgit well, I disagree, there are multiple reasons to believe that it's not that simple. The whole thing is built with a twist in mind. Everyone talks about mimicking and all that from the start, but it becomes debunked with time. In the end Withers will tell that he knows the person who is your illithid, "appearances may change but this one I know" - same phrase for everyone including the emperor and Orpheus who certainly did not had the nether tadpole. I also think the "true soul" is a tongue and cheek to that whole "soulless" concept
I am... Well, *delighted* by Withers' delight.
same
Mindflayers/Illithids do have gods after all so they would need to have some form of soul to collect
@@TsulaAngenati2292 I agree. I think at least in bg3 it is safe to say that they have a soul
Illithids don't have gods. They only have elder brains. They came from the Far Realm, they are alien to material, upper, or lower planes of existence. If they have souls, and I believe they do, their souls just don't obey the same rules, they don't go the standard way of mortal souls to be judged by gods.
They had one. Orcus clapped it out though.
@@Asgaardiangatekeeper Two. Ilsensine is still around and Maanzecorian... might still be around...?
Actually, in canon lore Illithid brains are fed to the colony Elder brain when one dies, so Illithid religion actually states that they get absorbed into their Elder brain's consciousness when they die.
The secret all elder brains keep is that they actually just absorb the psionic power and then discard the rest.
Withers explicitly state Mind Flayers do not possess apolistic souls, they have spirits (which all dnd creatures have except Halflings, Humans, Demi-Human [these are half elves, genasi, assimar], Orcs, and Dwarves) this means they endlessly reincarnate after spending a brief period in the afterlife.
This was the ending of my first run. Absolutely regretted all my choices in life 😂 it's so heart-wrenching
@@tainadeoliveira I loved that this type of ending exists at all!
My new personal theory which I’m respectfully stealing from someone else is fairly simple and makes sense game wise.
The absolute absorbs all illithed souls, so withers isn’t wrong, but when tav turns into one, because the absolute is destroyed in such a short time after transforming + Orpheus power, u maintain ur soul due to the absolute not absorbing it. The reason this makes sense to me is that the absolute is made from THOUGHT itself, where else can u get thoughts from other then souls, and when the parasite transforms u, it seems u have a sense of self for a short time because of the crowns magic
Take the new born illithed under the Windmill in act 3, undeniably he has a soul, omelum has a soul, the emperor who LOVES being an illithed definitely has a soul, u can’t love smth on top of having passion, interest and goals without some type of internal motives / thoughts of deeper desires.
Finally take Orpheus when he transforms he literally tells u, right before u kill him at the end of the game to give him a merciful death, that he doesn’t know how much longer he can maintain his soul because of the conflict within his brain and the pain of being a ghaik.
In turn I think there’s undeniable evidence that illthids CAN have souls but under specific circumstances and I think tav/durge fulfill those circumstances
@@joshuaDaniel-y2d I think Omeluum probably the most interesting case. He is an ordinary illithid who has no idea about the Absolute conspiracy, modified tadpoles and even missed all the nautiloids. Yet he clearly has a soul, and not just not a part of a hive mind, he refuses to participate. So I think the whole no souls thing is a big misconception. I also got a lot of interesting comments here, about the understanding what actually counts as a soul. So, in dnd interpretation a soul considered something that can be collected by a certain god. Illithids have their own gods who collect whatever is left after an illithid death. Gods of Faerun usually can't do that. Now we have also a more common understanding which is "a soul is what makes you you". So that's why in the start we think oh, after you turn, this part will be gone, best case scenario a new being will have some memories, but that's it. And during the game we see both understandings being challenged. We see multiple illithids who didn't lost their souls in the common understanding, and we also have a lot of interesting interactions with Withers aka Jergal the scribe of souls, which peaks in this ending, where he admits that he was sure he will not see your soul after you died, since everyone thought that Faerun gods aren't suppose to, but yet here we are
I doubt this proves illithids in general have souls, it seems more like we’re an odd exception to the norm. If all illithids had souls Withers would not be so surprised
@@otalek9250 looking back at the experience with other illithids including my companions I want to believe otherwise)
jokes on you, i never even saw any ending of this game
@@serpouncedk3933 it is time to spend a couple of thousands hours in it then))
Alternative title: Player believes an illithid's word
@@StormEagle5 more like withers's word
"Noooooooo"
~Withers
Death: “strange. No illithid prior has ever had a soul. None have arrived here in this realm before now. Your presence is unexpected, almost inconceivable, and could very well shake the foundation of everything to its very core. I fucking love it!”
@@fireblast133 I love it too honestly))
This proves for sure that he is jergal lol you literally see him after you die.
@@Aventrixmusic withers being Jergal is not a secret, you can roll successful roll at his temple in act 1 and learn that
@@greetingsargonian that doesn't tell you he is jergal it just tells you that he has a divine aspect.
@Aventrixmusic that tells you it is his temple, and then you find him in the most guarded tomb, and he is like "I am the scribe"))
Yeah, Ilithids have souls. They have to have souls because they aren't outsiders, however, they don't have the souls of the host. That's where the confusion happens.
Elder brains are capable of protecting their mind into the Astral Plane. This wouldn't be possible without a soul. Ilithids can become undead and learn magic. This requires some spark. And most important Ulrsliths cen become Liches which is an act of great evil made possible only by corrupting and containing your soul.
i always thought this was the best ending, particular for the dark urge. it really did have to be you that made the sacrifice to become an illithid, karlach didn't deserve to lose herself, orpheus had an enslaved people to fight for and the emperor couldn't be trusted, and beyond those practical reasons you're the leader so you're responsible for the party, not to mentioning durge having a lot of sins to make up for. as for why i think dying is the best option it's just the most realistic, if you don't die you'll be forced to feed on minds which will slowly wipe out your own mind anyway (that doesn't change with having a soul either), so in my mind it's better to lose your life than lose yourself. also it's just very fitting, you'd already righted the wrongs you caused but it was one last act of penance along with sticking one more finger to bhaal
This is the first ending I took.
@@punkdigerati bold choice!
Player character mindflayer is an anomaly not the standard In other words, you have a soul that doesn't mean other mindflayers have a soul Which is why withers is surprised at the end
We've met more than one unusual mindflayers though...
@greetingsargonian ones separate from the elder brain yes but that absolutely doesn't mean they have souls again the player character is a special case because they have a soul we are told specifically the emperor doesn't have one by withers and he's also a special case meaning your logic doesn't hold true
@TheinternetArchaeologist and yet Withers recognized Emperor if he joins the last battle. He treats him the same as any of your companions or you. I believe the game tries to convince us about no souls thing but it deconstructs as the playthrough goes
@greetingsargonian so what that again does not indicate a soul it indicates withers doesn't treat him differently because he's soulless and he literally tells you he is soulless you can point out the exception and pretend you are proving a rule but im going to pick apart your fallacious logic and the fact that you are objectively wrong on your blanket statement... you are wrong sorry not sorry your inability to come to terms with that but all you are proving here is you can't think logically
@TheinternetArchaeologist so far you are not doing a great job but please continue. He never told that Emperor is soulless. There is also Omeluum.
This is not exclusive to p7 I had this ending half a year ago
How would the transformation remove one's soul anyway
the idea is that you died in the transformation and whoever takes over your body is the larva
in this logic you are already dead when you are illithid
but in this ending it suggests that his soul was transformed along with his body
I thought the transformation straight up kills the orignial person and the mind flayer larva absorbs their memories, feelings etc and basically creates a perfect copy of the original person that is basically a mimic while the soul has passed on but that ineed still begs the question if the larva had a soul to begin with.
@@kebek3834 I believe that was the canon answer based on general Forgotten Realms knowledge, but the storytelling in the world is based on the characters' knowledge of the world, which means it could be wrong. What we see in BG3 suggests that it is indeed wrong
My speculation based on nothing: I think dnd lore had it since forever because it was a fun concept that illithids are so scary that they eat your soul boo. But if you think about it it is kinda dumb, and what is the soul anyway to begin with, do larvas have it, does mega brain have it, etc.
Essentially it seems like the soul of the original person escapes as it would on death, while the body is now a new Illithid lifeform but with no soul of its own. And the soul cannot return to the body of the mindflayer with resurrection spells etc because its too far gone or alien for the original soul. Its kind of how vampires in other media are described, where the soul moves on and the body becomes its own being, bereft of the original soul and now an undying cursed monster.
Actually that was the first ending I got
I was doing a evil play through but by the beginning of act three in the interlude I decided to do a redemption arc for my character
I was not prepared for Jolly Jergal
Man... this is my first ending... and was a year ago... its not new patch
*stabby* Darn I still have 120 hp.
I love how people are just posting day 1 content that isn't even that rare or hard to get and labeling it "NEW RARE PATCH 7 ENDING!"
I remember when people were using this ending to help justify that Larian was gonna make a DLC despite the fact that they blew that idea off only a week after release. (And have never made a DLC for any game they've made previously.)
If you romance karlach and she dies while you transform he outright tells you that you will meet her again. If your soul is gone that wouldn't be possible.
@@Douglas-nt7jd and if she transforms she still will be herself
There's a rule in the multi-varied world of Dungeons & Dragons, which has been touched by SO many writers: if anything is canon, the largest and oldest bodies of work prevail. If a single sourcebook (or game like Baldur's Gate 3) goes against the prevailing lore, that is not considered canon, but optional for a Dungeon Master.
This is one of those cases.
@@jupiterrising887 well this makes all the games not a canon, isn't it? And I am interested in the games before anything else
Lame af lore tbh. Just completely throws away the sacrifice you make when you become one and doesn't make sense. The transformation practically kills you
@@r.m.5926 idk I am all here for the happy end
becoming an illithid doesn't suddenly become harmless if you have a soul, unless you immediately die like this you're forced to feed on brains to survive, and every brain you consume is essentially combining the minds of your victims with your own so overtime your actual self will slip away until you're a completely different person. it's still a massive sacrifice that you're making, and while the lore isn't super clear i do think there's a few potential explanations (one of my theories is that the dead 3 had lied about them being soulless and somehow stolen their souls for power, which is what withers figured out and why he was roasting them in the epilogue cutscene)
@@aldrichunfaithful3589 I think that was a hoax too
This is literally the first ending I got. This isn't new
Sigh... No they don't
Ours does because we're special
Likely because of the different way we became one
@@infernoblitz2449 looks like at least in this game they do
This is such a stupid retcon. It was great as it is, i played whole game as illithid hater and when in the end i chose to sacrifice my very sou and become this abomination l for the sake of others, it felt dramatic. Now it's just "hey, you still have the soul btw" like it makes this whole sacrifice pointless. Not every story has to end with happy end,. Larian should stop doing everything to make player feel good about themselves.