Withers Before And After Baldur's Gate 3
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Withers is quite literally an essential character in Baldur's Gate 3 and plays an integral part in the game but Wither's in-game representation is vastly different from his literary and historical depiction. This is neither good nor bad but requires explanation and exploration. Why did Larian change Withers so much from his historical legacy? This then is the purpose of the video, to explore this question and perhaps find answers to it.
Link To Jergal Video:
• Baldur's Gate 3: Jerga...
Link To Illithid Souls Video:
• Baldur's Gate 3: Do Mi...
Unfortunately, just as I was going to add something about the resurrection of the Dark Urge, my recording equipment decided to die a potential final death. That said, I would add the interference and intervention of Withers in the life of the Dark Urge as yet another surprising and ahistorical event that exists for the sake of game flow and continuity.
@@fangslore9988 Where does it state that officially? I have never seen anything official state that.
@@spellandshield I hate it when people delete comments, even if they were wrong it would be nice to at least know what got people to say things like what's stated in your reply. Also, do you know what was said or is it just lost to the ether now? :P
@@azazelblackfire816 people cant help but be cowardly in this day and age.
@@azazelblackfire816 If I recall it was something about Jergal's divine state and I asked for a source about. When I talk about lore I am drawing upon memory from old and current sources as well as directly from sourcebooks I still own so I just wanted confirmation from him.
For a small fee, you can ask Withers to resurrect your recording equipment...
I kinda like the theory that Jergal is also looking for replacements to the dead three and that is part of why he is guiding Arabella.
Or the PC after certain endings.
Strange. I like this idea, but I thought Withers didn't like godhood, and is looking for 'equals' to himself. Maybe I'm wrong though and still love the replacements concept for the Dead Three.
Lol no.
Arabella is going to became new chosen of Mystra. Weave, duh. And she is going to be taught to master it by "beard man". Elminster.
@@ГригорийГ-ч4н Mystra: "Apparently my plan B just became part of the problem. Elminster! Put the boom into that little tiefling girl. We have a pretender god in need of being blown up."
@@cavareenvius7886 the Weave connection was awakened by contact with idol. While Elminster was far away. Then Jergall convinced her to study Weave. Then after act 3 Elminster met Arabella and begun to teach her. It is obvious from epologue letters of Elminster and Arabella.
Well done. I like the lawful neutral interpretation of Jergal. The Lore will probably say that as gods are shaped by their portfolios, Jergal freed himself of tyranny, murder, and rulership over the dead. What is left is an interest in the orderly flow of destiny and fate. Allowing even for a touch of compassion as he helped a small group of mortals stand against a crisis caused by Jergal’s former heirs.
Kinda like Orcus when he killed the god of the robot dudes, he became true neutral when he took his not by choice but because it was the nature of that god he killed
Basically cleaning up his own mess
yes though he kept the scribe of the dead portfolio for himself, i assume it gave him the freedom to nolonger be the big bad boogyman of feyrune. makes sense he probably got tired of being evil
he isn't there by choice he was probably told to render aid to Tav/Dark Urge
Perhaps he feels some responsibility for the actions of his successors
The new Withers is very nosy about your love life
He is indeed very nosy for someone without one...
@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э He's just salty that he cannot pull bitches like the PC so he just resorts to being petty like a high school mean girl
@@ВладиславБулаев-л3э Not according to all the raphael/withers fanfiction XD (If I have to know that exists so does everyone else)
And thus, you are alone.
"Thou hast no maiden"
Withers was PISSED at the dead three, his slapdown of them at the end was the only time he let emotion leak. And it was epic
Maybe on a Tav/other Origin playthrough... but the amount of disappointment and anger in my Dark Urge playthrough has been crazy.
he admonished them in the way he did was because the dead 3 spent the very last of their power. when myrkrul's avatar was defeated he nolonger had any power left to even commune with mortals, when Orin was forced to become the slayer/Dark Urge refused them and being killed/dark urge forced to a mindless husk Bhaal used the last of his power and when Bane gave Gortash his aspect (the giant form) Bane used the last of his power. the dead 3 really are now dead gods in the literal sense they fell to the lowest type of quasi divine which cannot grant aspects nor contact their mortal followers and thus no longer interfere with the mortal realms and any attempt would result probably spend the last embers of their divine sparks with no results at all
@@fangslore9988 Was that ever actually said anywhere?
It's not the only time he's showing genuine emotions, but it's one of the few times where it's striking.
Another instance is when you rescue Arabella, have her in your camp and tell her about her parents. When her magic goes haywire, Withers tells her she must leave. You can respond that you won't send her off by herself. To which Withers raises his voice at you, demanding firmly that "Thou must!"
@@ghalansmokescale5542 Withers when he told them that they will not trouble him any more plus in DnD quasi divine entities typically cannot act upon the mortal world without using up all their power yet the dead 3 did so. for myrkrul by giving his chosen his avatar was the last act he could do in the mortal world Bhaal by making Orin the slayer or by taking the durge's power or by driving the durge insane was his last act, and Bane turning gortash into his own aspect drained him of his last amounts of divine power.
the plot in BG3 was the dead 3's last bid for power, if they had success (even if their success would still fail) if they regained their power they could regain their portfolios from Kelemvor but failure cost them everything. they literally cannot act upon the mortal world any more, this is directly because Io decreed that all divine entities gain power from numbers of worshipers, and in BG3 their worshipers had gathered as the top leaders of the cult of the absolute and now they are all dead.
its also likely Io would take action of the dead 3 himself but under Io's Decree all divine beings have a finite amount of power based on their number of worshipers which is why the dead 3 sought to convert the entire sword coast to their worship using the absolute elder brain/netherbrain to do so. in the lore of DnD 5E its very easy to tell that this was their last attempt at anything i don't think it means they're erased but it just means as Quasi divine they are without power and nolonger have the ability to act upon the realms.
i know a lot of people would disagree since they may have only played the BG3 and don't know DnD lore and how after the god-fall where the gods were sundered and brought to the prime material world Io created a decree that is still in act which gives all gods limited amout of power which is finite, and that all gods must gain power by the numbers of their worshipers this also impacted the dead 3 who by the time of the absolute crisis were already extremely weak being reduced to demi-god status since kelemvor has their godly portfolios as the god of death, burials and last rites, murder and tyranny though he is more responsible than the dead 3 being a truly neutral god who's teachings is that all have a due death they are fated for and that one's passing must be celebrated and that person's memories need to be kept alive.
ok in a nutshell the dead 3 basically had finite powers and abilities being quasi-divine/demi-gods, the protagonist either Tav/Durg basically destroyed whatever worshipers the dead 3 had left meaning they lost every bit of the power they did have in conjunction with what they had left was used to attempt to stop Tav/Durg from wining, people also claim Bane didn't aid gortash, but Bane did give gortash his aspect which made him giant.
I would see the "not by choice" less as a "I was told to" rather than a "the developing situation forced my hand"
Could be either, we just don't know.
no, he was sent by kelemvor due to the fact that the gods already knew the Absolute was an elder brain and mortal souls vanish when they become ilithids and this is something that breaks the ballance of life and death. no more due deaths. no mortals to meet their destined death and so no souls would pass through the feugal plane to Kelemvor's realm. if the absolute ever won. Withers was like that of a tiny pebble that alters the current of a stream changing how events played out
Jergal: "If you must know I signed a contract with this damned Vincke person and now I'm forced to help you no matter how stupid you are"
@@fangslore9988 actually no he was not sent by kelemvor it was helm who sent him
@@lightning8577 it couldn't be Helm because Helm has no investment in the mortal souls in this manner and Jergal does not answer to Helm, he only answers to Kelemvor and Kelemvor alone
I think that Larian made Withers' appearance more humanoid simply to make it less obvious that he was indeed Jergal.
I think it was that, the fact he's not necessarily required to appear in a specific way, and probably honestly? Because it's more relatable to the protagonists. If you opened up a tomb and a GIANT FUCKING PRAYING MANTIS SKELETON MAN COMES OUT and goes 'oh don't fear me I'm just a bit undead' I think it'd throw 'why is this undead nice' into 'WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS' same reason Elminster isn't allowed to pull out his canonical dual enchanted 1911 pistols in combat.
@@WereScrib I'm sorry, Elminster has what?
@@sallyforth9905Colt 45 ACP 1911s. If I remember right they have pearl handles and gold plating.
This isn't alone in FR lore, the halfling language is closest to Quebecois French because their culture is influenced mostly by medieval France where they visited and imported foxes from (Foxes literally come from Earth, in FR)
Similarly, Saint Sollars, the most famous Ilmatari saint, 'the twice martyred', is from Texas on Earth, the Monks of the Yellow Rose literally got their symbol from the Yellow Rose of texas, his symbol is a lone-star, and he compares orcs to cartel gangs.
as much as a god who is also a lich (he is the only god to ever become a Lich from what i remember)
@@WereScrib The giant praying mantis was a Netheril exclusive appearance. To everyone else he was either a old grumpy classic wizard looking man or some undead and every appearance of Elminster if you inspect (or accidentally kill) him is indeed a simulacrum (construct tag).
In my mind, I just imagine that following the party has changed Jergal's mentality. Before, he was a dark god of death who became apathetic to the point of a horribly botched retirement. He saw the destruction the dead three wrought- and was tasked to quell the absolute. But in following the trials and tribulations of the party in the events of BG3, he is stirred from his apathy- becoming attached to the stories of the heroes whose fates he will inevitably scribe. Witnessing their lives unfold as more than just ink on a page, for likely the first time in eons. He saved the Dark Urge of his own free will after all, even if he had no say in being sent to help the party. I find it funny how in the epilogue he releases Milil from the fugue plane, on the condition that he play ballads in honor of heroes at Jergal's command. Shows a real character arc from old Withers.
This is my personal interpretation of him as well, travelling with the party in some ways taught the dead god to appreciate life.
For once, he was not writing down someone's fate or reading it by glancing at them. Instead, he lived through one of these tales, and he found it an enjoyable experience.
Easy explanation, he met Karlach and thanks to her changed for better. She changes everyone. #easySolutions #TrustMeItsTotallyCanon
My headcanon from now on. Beautiful.
I like the concept that Withers is a persona Jergal created for the purposes of his current mission. Meaning he could take another form in the future, or his original form if he wishes. In the final cut scene after the camp party in the epilogue, he has a monologue about the dead 3, and the subtitles calls him 'Jergal as Withers', which to me, suggests it's just a persona or image he has taken.
Perhaps more like an avatar
i have a theory this is his special more social form he can take for missions need him to guide someone lol
Since AD&D the 2nd listed power he explicitly has as a death god is that he can manifest as any undead.
The mantis form meanwhile is a explicit netheril only one and even during 2nd ed he appeared as a old grandpa/wise wizard man.
This reminds me of Terry Pratchett's death:
Sure he has a GRIM job (as he puts it), but underneath the stoicism and stern is a compassionate death with a love of routine and a soft spot for mortals.
One reason for his visual change could also simply be the fact that with such a heavy focus on the illithids and gith, having a third type of alien just hanging around might have been considered too much - having three different types of aliens this prominent in your world will inadvertently make it feel less and less "fantasy"
Or they just thought he'd look better this way. It's not like this is the only change to D&D lore within this game, after all. They changed owlbears from hyperagressive abominations to regular animals that you can have relatively calm conversations with and even adopt one - seemingly for no other reason than because they wanted to.
I think more no other reason than it made a better story.
Which is what DMs do all the time.
It's not like the lore for Forgotten Realms has always been consistent anyway.
And that change is definitely for the better.
It's both more immersive to have Owlbear as just regular Apex predators than just another bloodthirsty creature, nothing about mixing an owl and a bear together screams "they are immediately going for your throat unlike regular bears".
Being able to cast speak with animals to talk with them is just really good for the world building in general too.
@@sephikong8323 Yeah, it's fine to have some "animals" that really are just beasts that have to be dealt with - or in this case, magically created hyper aggressive monsters.
But design wise, the owlbear really doesn't look the part. It just looks like a normal fantasy creature that's just minding it's business (Hippogriffs, Flying Snakes and Stirges are just normal animals too, after all - so being a hybrid animal clearly doesn't make you act like this).
Considering that both BG3 as well as the D&D movie treat them as regular animals, it's not hard to imagine that this is their new "look" going forward.
Not to mention that the old owlbear really doesn't provide anything interesting beyond it being just another random encounter type monster to throw at your players. There are more than enough "walk forward and attack until one side is dead" monsters in D&D.
I like to think the hyper aggressiveness is what people living in Faerun think Owlbears are like because of poor and badly mishandled research.
Also bards like Volo spreading clear misinformation.
In fact you could say that about a lot of creatures Toril natives typically fear.
@@meganparrish807 In case you're interested:
In original D&D lore, the owlbear was created by ancient wizards to serve as guard dogs using the "Alter Beast" spell, a spell so inhumane (considering the word for "beast" at the time just meant "non-caster" - the humanoid yuan ti for example are implied to also have been created via this spell) that it got banned in-universe by the goddess of magic at the time
Personally I think Helm having Jergal do things makes sense since Helm is typically the direct agent of Ao when the overgod wants things to be done
And keeps the "rogue" god under close check
@@BaalFridge he isn't a rogue god as he performed his portfolio tasks very well.
BUT he fucked up by letting the dead three dingalings do their thing.
@@kennethsmith5383 well have to admit tho, he was bored, want something amusing, the dead three came, he did know what he doin, and voila they DID spice things up, but well i guess we cant have fun forever lmao. at least im glad he did favor the good decisions over power hungry one, when he observe the party
Personally, if anyone is breaking bread and having a chat with Ao, I'd expect it to be Jergal, no intermediary needed.
@@SophiaAstatine yeah me too, remember how he said "right as always" at the first time they meet. Who is always right? Whoever controls fate = Ao
Also I like my headcanon when durge is still dying and shipped to neutoloid, their anger, willpower screams, heard by Ao to give them a chance to choose their own fate for once than being a disgraced puppet despite their effort to be the most faithful to their god. That's why NO ONE allowed to tell durge their identity, because NO ONE MESS WITH AO. Not even bhaal. The last time they messing with him, they are back to mortal again.
Its a very specific thing but I just love it when death or the personification of death in a fictional world is not depicted as evil but just something that's necessary to keep the balance its why death from darksiders 2 is one of my favourite protagonists of all time.
Thank you bone man for being nice
In a philosophical way the change of Jergal would tell us that death might not be so scary as it first sounded.
that was more kelemvor like philosophy, but, he works well with him, so i guess he did favor some of kelemvor's judgement and work ethics than with myrkul or even cyric
You keep saying that Larian changed his depiction. It seems like you're forgetting that Wizards of the Coast helped write this plotline, and, most likely, had to have many approvals on depictions of major lore characters before Larian could even consider adding them.
Not saying you're wrong, it was definitely changed to better hide who he is and come off as more appealing to players, but don't leave WotC out of this. They gave the go-ahead.
Right? Every time I hear that question, "why did Larian change this..." Probably because they were told to? 😂😂
Nothing was even changed.
Since AD&D (the Netheril box set to be specific) he explicitly only appeared in the Naraskr/Locust form in Netheril and in adventures and lore could take on the form of ANY UNDEAD and did/would appear as a old wizard style grandpa (long flowing beard, glint of ancient wisdom in eyes, etc) to adventurers. Or as the sound of a closing book (_insert joke DM throwing DMG at player here_).
I like that jergal was the original death note. Also I really want to see more renderings of old jergal. That would be a cool bg3 mod/ miniature to paint.
I really like the jolly-retired-god-of-death-skeleton approach for jergal
Durge is like "Grandpa Jergal! ❤❤❤"
I suspect that, personally, the reason withers is more compassionate is because his more cruel nature was what ultimately caused the crisis which he was sent to assist with preventing. So where he would previously acted coldly, he is instead trying a different path to avoid creating a cycle that repeats itself until nothing is left to repeat.
Great video. I always liked Withers since I started playing BG3 but when he does that one thing in Act 3 during my resisting durge playthrough.....I teared up lol.
" may be head cannon" but gale changed quite a bit when he ascended, personality wise and physically. I'm sure I'm wrong but to me this would happen when leaving Divinity losing parts of your personality. But amazing I couldn't agree more about this topic you really hit the nail on the head.
I think that was always an element of Gale's personality tbh. He always had that potential to be an arrogant prick basically.
True@@spellandshield
Dead 3 didnt change when they fell, tiamat barely changes (even tho her true body is stuck in the cave in avernus/we fight avatars or corpses of gods she stole and remolded 99% of the time). Jergal likely didnt, its just one of his powers to appear as any type of undead (which is likely also what the Netheril bug form is, a location specific undead form as there is a undead monster in AD&D and 3e that looks a decent bit like his Netherese appearance).
@@spellandshield Yeah, him ascending just magnifies the worst parts about him by 1000%
Hearing Jergal verbally beating on the Dead Three was just so satisfying. Also I'm fairly certain since Jergal is still quite powerful, that Withers is an avatar or extension of him, but not his true form. After all; we find a statue of Jergal in the temple with find Withers in, which looks nothing like Withers and on closer look does look closer to Jergal's true form. Almost no-one in the mortal world remembers him any more.
Or the fact that, as many gods do, including ones as minor now as the Dead Three, have avatars (like Bhaal has the Slayer, Kazgoroth and the Ravager, three avatars despite being a quasi-deity); extensions of themselves that take on different guises and even personalities.
I didn't know a lot about Jergal before delving into Baldur's Gate 3 besides his old work and history with the Dead Three, but even then I thought he was being strangely nice to your character (besides calling you maidenless if you're not romancing anybody, of course). I do like the approach, though. He's serious and somewhat aloof but is fair and capable of compassion when the moment calls for it.
Hope to see more of him as the franchise goes on.
I like to think Jergal just decided to be nicer now and becomes more chill and cool after a couple thousand years of retirement.
Yeah, games (less so films) have to walk a careful line between established lore and what might please gamers. I think Larian made a decent compromise with Withers. Nice video!
I really enjoyed this take.
I do wonder about the gods quite often in the sense that they are not static entities; they change as their domains evolve and develop. As seneschal for myrkhul and latterly kelemvor the Anthropocene traits of the worshippers are often superimposed onto the deity and their servants.
The Jergal from the past took his form probably from those that worshipped him.
As for his alignment I genuinely think this may also be indicative of his affiliation with worship.
Historically insectoid races are brutal. They are perceived as neutral evil or lawful evil because they only exist to serve their colonies.
Later editions have changed this to unaligned.
Given his boredom and apathy towards godhood it completely stands to reason that he’d take more of an interest in the fleeting lives and motivations of mortals; he was a god for longer than most gods existed, there is precious little that he hasn’t experienced.
Mortality is that one thing he can never have. It goes some way to make his empathy with Arabella less jarring as well as helping her understand the power she gained (which may or may not be god like powers).
Damn, this is fascinating stuff. No one else covers this!
It's because of Jergle that the gods all agreed that there will never be another god who can have the domains of Death and Undeath. He was considered so incredibly powerful that no one but Elminster could take him down. One of the biggest bads of Faerun and possibly all of D&D in its entirety.
I had just learned about Jergal from a few books at the House of Healing. I stumbled onto this video while I was exploring around it and the minute you said "Judge of the Damned" I came upon the book, Judge of the Damned. Spooky.
From his dialogue, I got that he is here in service of balance.
As such, it's not another deity that forced or ordered him to come, but the course of events, the flow of destiny, the natural and inevitable direction of fate.
To protect balance, he had to intervene, and so it is not by choice but by obligation necessity and fate. Not by coercion.
"So He has spoken, and so thou standest before me. Right as always." Doesn't sound like he was given an order, rather that he was told of destiny and fate.
This was really well done. Just discovered your channel. Eager for more
Thanks
See his picture on page 26 of the novel "Prince of Lies.", he was a spellweaver, not some insect
Well, they do have quite a bit of bug anatomy (2e monster compendium art shows one naked, 3e art with over the pedestal shows maw pincers and chitinous head plate. But yes, a undead spellweaver was one of the forms he could take and would while appearing for residents of netheril specifically.
Hi, first video. This was so thorough and informational. I loved your speculation on the likely reasons for the changes. I found myself reaching the same point, only for you to cover that when I let you get to it😂 good shit, fam.
I wonder if losing spheres, such as tyranny, would have an effect. If you are no longer have things such as Tyranny, Murder, etc. in your portfolio, would that mean you would be less compelled to act like those sphere would suggest, thus freeing up more space for compassion or at least less indifference.
Probably. There was a god of war before Tempus called Targus during the time of Netheril and was CN. When he lost his portfolio of war to Tempus, he became more evil and essentially became the demigod of bloodlust and plunder. So it certainly is powerful.
I feel like helm would have been one of the few that could push Jergel to do anything. Despite his monotone inflection, it sounded so dejected and defeated when he admits it is not by choice. from at least what I know about helm he can fairly easily push the buttons of other gods in the realms at least when they were in mortal form.
A slightly mundane explanation for Jergal's redesign as Withers is Larian making another homage to their Divinity series. The player created Undead in Divinity Original Sin 2 have the option to have their skulls with metalic inlays of silver, gold, and onyx; notice how Withers' head (and partially his body from what we can see) is also inlayed with gold.
Like your lore and not that spoilers vids, great job🎉🎉🎉
Great video. My two cents on it: It's not just reaching the screen. It's often enough for another author to pick up a character to completly change the outlook on them.
I also think that this is generally a good thing as it allows new takes on ideas without discarding the whole thing and starting from zero. That being said a moderatly consistent canon can make it easier to set expectations in a kind of collaborative storytelling medium like DND.
Anyway props to Larian for walking that line and coming up with a narrative that fits the world sufficiently but also feels fresh and novel.
The Destiny concept art in the background is cracking me up. 😂
I never understood the old Description of Jergal. It always struck me as weird how they made them some kind of insectoid race. I don’t know if that was a literary tool to make them seem completely alien, or maybe it was supposed to be a Thri-Kreen or some sort of former demon or devil. However, having played the game, some things in it stood out to me. Two parts, actually. One is where Withers very pointedly asks about why You haven’t taken on a relationship with someone else. The other part is at the end. Under certain circumstances, he will say “my party”. I almost take that to mean that he has become invested in the characters. Perhaps he -is- being forced to pay penance. By becoming intertwined in the mortal realm, he is actually taking an interest in it. He can better relate now that he’s been forced to step into the shoes of the living realm. Even Wither’s smile at Arabella made it seem like it was the first time he’d ever done anything like that, and actually got a level of happiness from it.
It wasnt. It was his netherese form. The OG Netheril box set even states so and is likely based on a monster that existed in AD&D lore (and was given full statblock in 3e). Since his very first description, like all other FR gods with part of the death/undeath domain, he can take on the form of any undead creature.
As for being interested in player, likely. After all he stepped down from divinity out of boredom.
Changing his appearance also makes it less obvious who he is to people who know the source material.
Its hinted at then only spelt out later in a book you find.
So gives a different and I think much better experience.
I'm kind of surprised that a video that has basically no visuals has done so well; it's essentially a PowerPoint presentation. Of course I watch videos in the background all the time, so maybe that's intentional since it's really just a vehicle for the audio. Anyway, thanks for the lore.
It's my opinion that multiple God's sent him. He's a neutral third party and is passing along information to the God's. That's why things get harder, they're sending help and tipping the balance.
I like the idea of Jergal as a tired entity, *withered* from his eons of dedication, one might say. I'm not surprised he decided to just step down when confronted by the Dead Three. I probably would too by the time of it. It's a heavy responsibility to be in charge of, well, half of what consists of the entirety of existence. I am not that surprised he transitioned from evil to neutral either; an unknown eternity of being callous and malicious is probably quite tiring for anything that isnt a demon. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if the end result of most non-chaotic gods, good or evil, is to transition to neutral just from weariness and lack of empathy after countless years of buffeting.
It wasnt even that, he explicitly got bored (of being the hammy villain) of his position after having done every plot trick and scheme (likely as you say countless times).
@@ANDELE3025 Aye, good point.
Great video as usual.
I'm surprised you didn't mention his namesake from Chult. 'Withers' is the name of the undead spellcaster who managed the construction of the Tomb of Annihilatio for the lich Acererak. His appearance in BG3 Seems highly based on that character as well, even though his role in the story and powers place him far more in line with the Cyrik.
Love the Illusive Man theme in the background!
This makes VERY much sense when you play dark urge amd you choose to sacrifice yourself. Then you have the talk with him.
He had the original Death note.
I like to imagine this as being the end of his development from being once a harsh and malicious god to handing off his responsibilities and upon working with kelemvor coming to learn that while death is inevitable and ones should not act to spite it through undeath or seeking eternal lofe, one should still get to live to fullest, that they may grow and be shaped to their best selves for the afterlife leading to his form becoming more humanoid and his personality more compassionate. I really likr this depiction of Jergal and it has inspired my Grave domain cleric I'm now playing in a dnd game (even if she worships kelemvor not jergal)
I remember Jergal from Neverwinter nights games he was shown as a massive giant so my first knowledge of him was as a giant.
I honestly feel like Jergal is the kind of guy who never needed godhood to begin with and was just as fine being rid of it. There's plenty of suggestion that he is from beyond the existence of realmspace and the genesis of deities like Shar and Selune. The way he can act just makes it seem more true. Like Ao's buddy from the next cubicle in the office, who offered to help out with a hobby project and somehow got even more invested in its finer details than Ao.
while long ago he was shown to be apathetic, he's already changed in 5th edition official material.
Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse. - Sigil and the Outlands - Sylvania - Yearning Timbers: "A nocturnal club nicknamed the Afterparty resides beneath the tree’s roots. It’s a who’s who of Undead-liches, vampire lords, and skeletal folk of all shapes and sizes. Jergal, the apathetic former Lord of the End of Everything, regularly challenges visitors to a game of skull bocce. Legend has it he’s been defeated only once."
He plays games with other undead in a social environment.
yeah, sounds like withers there. probably invite morena as spectator lmao
That is entirely optional per DM choice with the suggestion being Jergal, as per text itself its just any death deity or otherwise morbidly adjacent character.
The best companion of this kind i have ever seen. super cool
I love your videos and even more with the illusive man theme
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Helm who made Withers help in BG3, he was probably doing it on behalf of Ao. If I remember correctly, Helm was the only god who was not forced to take on mortal form during the time of troubles, and was tasked by Ao to prevent the now mortal gods from returning to the heavenly realms. He actually killed Mystra while doing this because she felt she had to return to the weave and Helm wouldn't let her pass.
I'm not an expert on the lore or when it was written but it does kinda make sense the change of Jergal from a cultural perspective. more often we're seeing depictions of Death not as cruel or indifferent but kind or at the least not evil, most notable example to me being Death in the sandman comics.
At the end of BG3 there’s a scene where he expresses additional clues to his motives.
I wonder, how many players with BG2 and/or D&D experience had a first impression - It´s a Lich! Eloquent and a polite one! DECEPTION! Must be extra devious!.
Roll Attack!
I'd like to think that after relinquishing his former powers Jergels form could have changed. Also Jergel not being able to exist on the mortal plane could make make Withers simply an avatar of sorts in the service of Jergel explaining why he isn't in your service of his own volition.
Idk if it’s the same Withers, but there is a “Withers” in the campaign tomb of annihilation. Makes me wonder if that is his avatar, which is why he looks different.
I was hoping Tomb of Annihilation would be mentioned in the video as Withers isn’t entirely too different from that design, and when playing BG3, I assumed the “entity” commanding him was Acererak.
Thank you for another great video. You have a great voice, do you do playthroughs? Ever considered making a podcast?
Just realized, while listening to your description of Jergal in the apex of his power, that there were a lot of similarities to the Slayer form. 🤯
Check out the AD&D Monstrous Compendium Volume One on page 105. You might recognize something which if undead-ified might fit the description slightly better (even if the statblock itself mostly focuses just on the chromatic disc before being fully codified in 3e, as it is the annual compendium which were more "monster to slap in and throw at party" packs).
Jergal has actually been depicted as a withered and mummified corpse before, if I remember correctly. So both the insectile design and Withers do have precedent, and it’s not unheard of for deities in the Forgotten Realms to have multiple avatars either. Selune has three different human avatars alone.
Jergal seems to slowly change in general over the timeline of Faerûn, first having a distinct hatred for the world as the lord of the end, then an entirely apathetic view when he willingly gave his divine portfolios to the dark 3, to a sense of understanding and acceptance of the world with Kelemvor, and finally an appreciation and even affection for the mortal realm as Withers. This might just be the conclusion of his character arc, so to speak.
On the other hand, Jergal has always been one of the most mysterious and inexplicable deities in the Forgotten Realms lore. Being able and choosing to hand over his divinity to the dark 3 alone is unprecedented, and arguably impossible considering that gods in the realms require mortal worship to continue to exist. Withers is just the latest in a long line of unusual choices from and unanswered questions about Jergal. I don’t think we’ll have definitive answers anytime soon.
At the end of the day, there could be any number of reasons aside from necessity for the actions of Withers. As deep as a fundamental change of views, or as simple as curiosity. But each possibility has fun and unique storylines to explore, which was the intent of the Realms from the beginning. So the choice of what is true can vary from game to game and table to table. And much credit to Withers for one of the best character creation questions ever
“What is the worth of a single mortal life?”
Like all death deities, he can manifest/appear as any undead. Be it a undead spellweaver without a orb or undead human with bling similar to Vecnas redesign.
I think it's should be noted that Jergal is much more than a demigod, he might also be the third aspect of the Sun-god - Lathander is Dawn, Amaunator is Noon, and Jergal is Dusk. Amaunator was actually present in BG2, and we know he got better since then.
I'm surprised Myrkul is still around, I think I thoroughly banished him in NVN2.
As for Bhaal, in my head cannon, my character let go of their Bhaalspawn essence but eventually was attacked by a last Bhaalspawn, and after defeating them, Bhaal was reborn and the rebirth killed my character.
I guess the way I see it is that Jergal gave up his position to the Dead Three and had nothing to do with his time but to explore the world and through the thousands of years, came to understand mortals better and thus became less cold and apathetic to them. It only makes sense to me that way anyway, unless he was just sleeping in his sarcophagus all these years which would have been terribly boring for such a once powerful demigod.
Never thought about that. If everyones a mindflayer theres no souls for the gods
To be fair i would like a more turian look to jergal, but the Undead drip is cool.
That was a good video, I shall leave a like.
I enjoyed Withers tone at the end of my playthrough but then i saw a lets play of someone where after having turned into a MF they tried to eat Astarion and gor obliterated by Withers. It made me question if he wasn't a tad more powerful than i had thought until then and now i get this revelation : Jergal, ok it kinda makes sense...
Jergal could still be the same. Jergal can not manifest himself on the material plane but he would be able to control a dead scrivener. And a dead scrivener would not be mantis. Jergal speaks through Withers in BG3.
I always thought this jergel was a high priest that was mummified to take on the avatar of Jergel but thats my assumption
I don't really have any evidence but from discussions with other people I was assuming that Ao was the one who has him set to the task of helping the player and companions. So I was also assuming that he sent Withers because of the very direct meddling that the Dead Three seem to be doing in mortal affairs.
To be fair, being Neutral in alignment doesn’t and probably shouldn’t preclude any character from having a complex psychology. I don’t don’t do much think that Withers having this more compassionate angle to his character is incompatible with alignment, more so with the fact that he’s a god. Gods, in my opinion at least, do not and should not think like humans. They should be something fundamentally hard for us to grasp.
That said, I like the suggestion of other people here that the change in personality is the influence of Kelemvor somehow. Just as the once honorable and goodly Kelemvor became more detached after becoming god of the dead, maybe the influence of the mortal-turned-god has seeped into Jergal, who is now a “mere” demigod. Sure he was under Myrkul and Cyric before him, but I imagine Myrkul was a very apathetic supervisor, and in Cyric’s case I think outright abuse of Jergal wouldn’t be out of the question.
I personally believe that Withers is the chosen of Jergal. This is because i have yet to see Withers called Jergal, only ever implied, and the implications can just as easily be assigned to his chosen.
The dead three are about to immensely fuck up faerunn, I wouldn’t be surprised if withers stepped in voluntarily.
Perhaps Withers is still his old self and was just using disguise self and passing all deception checks?
Jergals progression is possibly the most interesting story in BG3 but while it seems like Helm I think it's actually Ao, and the diversion of souls with possible involvement from Asmodeus trying to get more souls than just those that forsake the gods. It would be funny if it was all a orcestration of Vecna of the 3, through his mastery of secrets and death.
I think the physical change is well argued, but the first time I saw Jergal I clocked him as enemy. For me the most important characteristic was his voice. The same was the case for the illithid in the underdark. Voices and mannerism matter a lot.
The script for BG3 reveals how Withers was in the crypt and why he's helping us. It wasn't Kelemvor who put him there. It was... *spoilers*
Helm, the god of Justice. He put Withers/Jergal there as punishment for giving the Dead Three his powers and portfolio. As part of the deal, Withers was also sworn to help whoever got him out of the sarcophagus (which would be us). Helm is the "he" Withers speaks of when we first meet him.
Honestly, I think part of this is a broader influence that's had impact on many representations of a deity or personification of death: they start talking in small caps and taking an interest in things being as they should be for mortals. I do not disapprove.
I never interpreted Withers as being Jergal’s true form. It seems pretty straightforward that Withers’ body is the mummified corpse of a long-dead high priest of Jergal. Why would Jergal himself have a physical tomb in a temple in some random rural area on the Sword Coast? And one that is far too exposed and intact to be as old as Jergal must be. As such I don’t think Withers’ appearance challenges the pre-existing lore about Jergal’s true form. That body is as much an empty vessel as the hirelings he can supply the player with.
10:57 - Kelemvor was implied to have already been cucked by Jergal out of power for being a idiot during NWN2 (not to mention that the Knight Captain and Spirit Eater ending is the most likely canon seeing as per SCAG the wall exists but requires souls to manually be slapped in before it got reprinted out of mentioning it at all) with the number of secondary undead allies you can get that help bring down the wall that poof away after (implied being key word as he is the only god mentioned to not bother with it while kelemvor is panicking and personally up your face the entire final act of MoB, but it is possible other mortals did the scheming as some like Akachi himself explicitly did). Which is far more likely to be the "past crimes" he has to repent for as Ao is the one who chooses if a (native/non-invader pantheon) god remains a god and the one who returned them to life (and with it later to semi-godhood).
Withers is likely an Avatar of Jergal and the body of someone felled during the Spellplague; unofficially conscripted by Helm to assist the party in stopping the Grand Design and ultimately save the whole of Toril
It's an interesting thought that Withers is Jergal, and I could very well accept it for a lot of reasons if it were given in an official, canon capacity. If it has been, I've missed it, as all I've seen is that BG3 is canon. It's never confirmed that he is Jergal, however, at least in the game itself (the datamining Jergal/Helm stuff notwithstanding). A vassal or Chosen of Jergal, perhaps. Such beings can act as they will, so long as they serve their purpose and follow tenants of their deities, which Withers does insomuch as we know.
Who can say? If he is enacting Jergal's will at the behest of Jergal or someone else (maybe Helm, but that doesn't make much sense, really), maybe there's some plot. Maybe Arabella is meant to be the next vassal or Chosen of Jergal or the power commanding him, what/whoever that may be. Him actually BEING Jergal, though? I don't think so.
If I'm wrong I'm wrong, so if I missed anything and anyone has some canonical insight that I'm not privy to, I'm certainly willing to hear it.
I assumed it’s because they have enough alien types to keep track of.
I think him saying it's not his choice to help does not necessarily mean that someone else told him too. He frequently talks about maintaining balance and how the other death gods are upsetting it. He may have no choice because he thinks he has a duty to help the players restore order.
I think I like the Baldur's Gate 3 interpritation of him. My ultimate view of his character is that he's so true neutral that he's the only character who doesnt care what you do. You can slaughter all the tieflings, he wont complain at all. Kill your whole party? Great! That's why he's here! Now we have a new party of soul slaves and one psychopath. Withers literally doesnt care.
Also if you go around helping people giving all your gold or items away and forming deep lasting relationships and saving the town. He doesn't care. He doesnt praise or criticize you. He isn't evil, he isnt good.
One thing he does criticize you for though? Romancing someone. He thinks you are getting distracted from the mission. A true neutral thing to say.
So in some ways yeah, he helps that little girl and is compassionate. But I do think he does fit the bill of neutral rather than good for all of the stuff he doesnt mind the player doing. The fact that he is an evil player's whole party is part of the reason he will always have a tinge of evil to me.
The line he says so often actually captures his entire worldview, "fate spins along as it should"
He also criticizes you (or at least he did criticize me) when you are not romancing anyone.
Something along the line of keeping people at a distance making you weaker and having strength in relying on each other.
He still said no though when I tried to flirt him after this 😂
Withers said "it is not by choice" which doesn't necessarily mean that he is acting as a result of someone else's choice. Jergal not believe that we have a "choice" in what we are fated to do, in fact that is what "fate" is. If we are fated to sdo a given, we cannot choose to do otherwise.
What if the version we see in Baulder's Gate 3 is just an avatar of him, a deceased priest's body that he is using.
I don't know... the canonical appearance would identify him as Jergal immediately. I think the statue of Jergal still have the appearance described. Withers might be just his proxy. After all he was buried for ages at that temple. It's weird to think that's actually Jergal instead of a proxy set there.
He has dialogue with the kid you rescue in Act two who tried stealing the idol from Act one, if they survive.
He tells her that he's neither undead, nor living. When she asks what he was before what he is now, he just responds "there was no before." I can't remember the exact quote, but generally suggesting he's eternal in his current form, and always has been.
Well, sure, he is one of the oldest gods in Faerun as I said in the beginning.
where's my withers dating mod
At 7 7:59 there’s a background and I recognize it, but I don’t know where from.
I don’t think it’s BG3 because there’s a gun. I feel like it’s from Destiny. Am I correct l
I would figure the lack of the insect look is probably after giving power away to the kther three. The inenform to Bhaal's chosen looks somewhat insect looking. Perhaos it was armor he used to have that looked like an insect.
Funny you should mention the avatar thing. Withers controls the hirelings as pawns, speaks through them if you hire them. If you think about it, Withers could be a Scrivener of Doom's mummified body, possessed by Jergal, possibly even Jergal's new host, perhaps Jergal's mantis-man body is no more.
His statue is much more frightful than the Jergal you have at camp, so it's not like they're erasing Jergal's appearance from history. The statue looks more skeletal than alien, but it does look like it's got some mantis going on.
It gets easier if you think of Jergal as a Dungeon Master and Withers as his deus ex machina, but the narrator kinda flies in the face of that theory, unless there are two dungeon masters, one whose job it is to speak to the player directly and the other whose job it is to speak in the game.
He never was the mantis bug man, its just a form he took for ancient netheril (explicitly, per Netheril box set itself, the species of whose undead version he appeared at even being a thing from AD&D up to now), otherwise appearing as any undead of his choice or old grandpa wizard looking man for adventurers/heroes/notable folk (or the sound of a closing book).
To move towards a lesser power from divinity is to move towards humanity. The gain in understanding is inherent in the transition. This is the nature of his change.
Perhaps Ao told him to clean up after the Dead Three.
From some of Withers responses when you pick the dialogue options that annoy him, I think I can still see some of the old Jergal there. He's not necessarily kind and is capable of holding the player character in contempt, after all.