His decision makes absolutely no sense. Why, just why, would he go back to the brain? What possible benefit could this be to him? His individuality would be yet again consumed.
@@zacharyberridge7239 The best explanation I've seen is that Orpheus would instantly kill him when set free, since the emperor was keeping him imprisoned and drained for gods know how long. Without Orpheus' power to shield himself from the Brain, it would take him over. And he still has no faith in Gale to actually pull through and blow up the brain, and thus only free Orpheus after killing the brain. So, it's a simple calculation to him that returning willingly to the brain and ingratiating himself to it would give him the best odds of survival. Really though, in this situation, he should accept the Gale solution and allow the player to free Orpheus later, but that would be a huuuuge extra branch in an already huge game that had to cut a lot of endgame content. XD
@@AegixDrakan orpheus won't because he know an ilithid is needed to counter the brain. He was even willing to sacrifice himself if no one want to turn.
@@arcmen2275 agree, Orpheus saw the party slaughting his honor guard and still dont attack. He is probably the most "big picture" guy in the whole story. He is willing to become a mind flayer (the thing he hates most in the world) to stop the nether brain, not killing the Emperor seems like an easy task. It is one of the few clunks part of the story the way the Emperor leaves. They should have put some aditional reasoning.
It's even sillier that the Emperor went to rejoin the Netherbrain in this context, since it was literally told "We're about to magically nuke the entire area." Like, bro, you're not going to survive that.
It's more stupid when you realize the Emperor is essentially killing himself, he has 0 freewill or individual thought under the Netherbrain. So he's kind of just throwing away any kind of freedom to spite you, presumably because he knows Orpheus will murder him while the brain will just enslave him.
@@lodysseedunedolyen5682 If you would give him the ring of mental protection you get from Omeluun, that might protect him if Orpheus were to cut off his protection and then he’d actually have a base for negotiation with Orpheus. (sorry for leaving out that part)
I hate the emperor. He expects you to trust him, but then betrays you the first chance he gets because you don't want to do exactly what he wants you to do.
my theory is he’s just a separate extension of the elder brain that thinks he’s independent, like an ultron drone or something. he’s just a thrall that thinks he’s independent. that’s why he IMMEDIATELY goes to work with the nether brain, his “enslaver” when you even suggest his plan isn’t right.
@@femboygorou If he was an extension of elder brain then he wouldnt spend the whole game trying to defeat it. What is more likely, he actually behaves like an elder brain. After all he is an ilithid at heart and even if he has some inviduality his instincts compell him to do so. He want to defeat the elder brain only because its a threat to him - if he could become an elder brain he would. Thats why he doesnt care about losing his personality and joining the elderbrain - he is thinking like an illithid. For humans losing yourself is death, but for illithids its just a state of being. That would explain why he joins the brain so easily in the end.
He has two issues that really drive his character: 1) Survival is everything. Better to be a slave to the brain than dead. 2) He always thinks he’s right. He believes that his big brain is so advanced he’s thought of every possibility and is certain that his plan is the only one that will work. So when you refuse to work with him, he sees it as having no other choice than to give up on you for his own safety because in his mind you are guaranteed to fail. But, if you do go along with his plan and work with him, he’s just fine. No double crosses, no surprise twist betrayal, everything goes smoothly and afterwards he even wants to keep working with you
If you resist Emperior the entire game especally when he tries to seduce you he will reveal how he manipulated basically mindcontrolled all of his former allies in the flashbacks from earlier.
I think that's just the game world evolving to fit your narrative. Any decision you make is justified in its own way. Like astarion's ascension, if he succeeds he's happy. If he didn't, he's happy that he didn't have that burden. This is true for shadowheart's path too. There's no right decision. If the emperor is good in your playthrough, he's all the way good. If he's bad, he was cunning from the beginning.
@@InnerFire6213 no actually empror is not good person but not bad either he is an opportunist as long as he thinks he gains something from with siding you he will be in your side but when you do not follow his plan he thinks he will lose this battle and changes sides so yes shadowhearts and astarions characters evolves by the choices you made but empror was same from the begining he only wants to use you for his own purposes
@@InnerFire6213 That’s… an interesting take that I strongly disagree with. Ascended Astarion is very clearly Cazador 2.0 and a much more horrible person. Dark Justiciar Shadowheart is the same, being the empty tool of Shar. Just because they do not regret the change that fundamentally warps their personality, does not mean the game is retroactively “justifying” your playthrough. Emps always used mind control, that never changes per playthrough, you just aren’t given the opportunity to discover this unless you consistently oppose him. That is keeping with his character as a ruthless, if pragmatic, opportunist. If he can work with you? Great, he’ll do just that and keep the manipulations to a minimum. If he can’t? He’ll do what it takes to ensure his survival.
Emperor: “if you're not with me, then you're my enemy” Tav: “Only a Mind flayer would make deals with the absolute… i’ll do what I must” Emperor: “You will try.”
Only sweet noble karlach offered. Truly the best person in the party. For all her talk laezel was never gonna offer herself for sacrifice, not even when her prince was going to become ghaik. The legendary saviour of her race. I think even voss would quickly jump in to save his prince.
Karlach knew she was gonna die anyways, and doesn’t have Lae’zel’s lifelong experience and hatred of Illithids. The idea of becoming one wouldn’t even register to her I don’t think, it’s surprising enough she still finds respect for you if you have transformed.
@@Praetorian349 and laezel knows without orpheus there would be no rebellion, kind of her whole moral compass after turning her back to vlaakith. Can't imagine a higher purpose than that, she was willing to die for vlaakith when she was a fanatic. What would she do when orpheus is gone? Take up a hobby in baldurs gate? I think this was an overlook in the writing room.
@@InnerFire6213 Well from the ending I saw she was very much looking forward to a life with my Tav, endless sex and fighting Vlaakith's Knights in pursuit of her and my Tav as fugitives. Kinda sounds right up her alley. :P
He would, but he's not normal. Lae'zel is a typical gith, they ARE an evil race, selfish, they are raised to be. It's how they survive as a species in such a harsh situation. Red dragons do not ally themselves with good races...ever. Orpheus is as close to a good gith as we encounter in game, but if memory serves he's still part of the faction that wants to end the mind flayers to take over the multiverse themselves, a gith empire instead of an illithid one. The faction that feels it's wrong to do what the illithid do isnt really represented here sadly.
Only the Orphic Macguffin, forged in Hell itself by Raphael, can break the bonds of Orpheus... or apparently some random gith monks. And of course Orpheus is angry you didn't know this.
Well... If there's one thing I've learned in my years of D&D play... The one thing as powerful as a macguffin is a monk's unarmed strike past when the fists turn magical..lol. I guess a sufficiently motivated monk could do the job... Or at least, mine could punch through basically anything that was destructible in the game by 8th level.
Voss can be seen practically begging Raphael to give the hammer or to make a deal with him if he tells you to meet with him at Shar's Caress. Presumably Voss's in some sort of connection with the guards (they're on the same side) who do have to deal with the emperor in the prism. And of course Orpheus is gonna be pissed off that his most loyal guards were slaughtered all because you fell for an illithid's manipulations. But it's not like he attacks you after the fact beyond some harsh words, which is fairly reasonable all things considered for a gith. The writing's pretty good at accounting for a fair chunk of these factors within its own homebrew of 5E so it's not like these are plot holes lol
The end felt rushed when it came to choices. Like, there is nothing that discusses retaining humanity, the destruction of the soul. I played a Cleric, why would I give up my eternal afterlife that was promised by my god? That's why I sent Gale in, it made sense to me.
Honestly I wish there was an option to not turn and not to have to kill Orpheus. It would make the fight incredibly hard, yes - but it would be nice if there was a way.
I always kept thinkng back to Omeluum, who was able to resist without using Orpheus's power. Was wary of trusting him at first until the Iron Throne, when he constantly asks you to save everyone else, but him.
I wish there was an option to say to the emperor something like: I'll give you the stones, but I will free Orpheus. You have my word that IF he turns against us instead of joining us, I will hold him up long enough to let you assimilate him and we will proceed with your plan.
by lore it will make the fight impossible because as they figured out one should have full illithid + orpheus powers to use the stones on the brain, otherwise brain can resist
@@Observer675 Omeluum could resist the Illithid hive mind because he's a Sorcerer. he was born with an affinity for arcane magic that made him resistant to the Elder Brain's control. That's why Mind Flayers canonically find arcane magic abhorrent and shun it's users from their society.
Maybe if there was an extremely hard persuasion roll to convince the Emperor to stay with you, and maybe the only way to get him to do that is to have really high affinity, be half-illithid, or even (though I don’t like it) if you could only TRY and persuade him if you romanced him. I don’t like the last one though since it would lock you out of any other romances just for this so called “best ending”
It's possible that Gale's soul is destroyed based on the new epilogue content, Wither's doesn't seem to want to discuss what happened to gale Best option IMO is just Orph taking the fall, lae'zel becomes a worthy successor if you let her leave to fight against Vlaakith, She actually accomplishes the same feats with or without Orph
That's how it played out for me. I let Orpheus transform. In my mind it made sense. He was already a legend to his people, known to be a hugely successful killer of mindflayers. It seemed a fitting end to his legend that he sacrifice himself to end the mindflayer threat. Laezel taking up the mantel to spread the word and fight to free her people from Vlaakith suits her character arc as well. I was hoping though that since Orpheus gave Laezel his two dragons, that my character might get to ride along Laezel in this next fight.
Lae'zel leading her people to victory over Vlaakith sounds like great sequel content and somehow linked to the hell's and Blade of Avernus and Karlach messing up the devil's plots
@@dragrn5 What's with the hate for gale with everyone, his good ending is so sweet, he becomes a professor for magic, and is just, a generally sweet guy. Mystra fucked him over and his whole arc is dealing with that, dude deserves a break not martyrdom.
It's so annoying that Orpheus says what we as the player could have done to earn his respect for freeing him, when precisely the option he suggests is nothing more than a game over and reloading a save.
Also how are the monks actually going to free him? he can only be freed by the orphic hammer no? It is supposedly the singular way to free him. Makes me question WTF the monks where doing that whole ass time. Honestly this whole part of the game feels very poorly written.
@chrisgeraghty9951 There are two things affecting Orpheus. The chains lock him in the Astral Prism. The Emperor's hold is what protects the party. The guard were about to break the Emperor's hold, not the chains.
Emperor was all too eager to throw away his own ideals and become a servant of the villain he's been helping you defeat, I knew I made the right call not trusting him -- never bet on a mind flayer they will always fuck you in the end
It's the one thing i'd say that was poorly written by Larian. Throughout the Game it's clear that the Emperor is very intelligent, has no intention of submitting to a Netherbrain again, and although he doesn't always tells the whole truth straight away, he does help you in every way he can. It just sucks that there's no way to have the Emperor and Orpheus working together, and the Emperor joining forces with the Netherbrain just feels really forced and makes little sense after everything that happened before.
@@Tomcat_CoyoteIt would have been more realistic if I had activated the boss fight instantly like: “I’m going to take away your nether stones and do it myself” literally nothing was stoping him from do that, he sacrifice too much to just choose to be a slave at the end
The idea seems to be that The Emperor truly has no choice in the matter. Without the protection of Orpheus, he’s going to become another thrall of the netherbrain. It’s not like he can just ask that Orpheus continue to preserve his free will either given that he’s slain his honor guard and kept him bound for this long.
Except Omeluum! He’s a good boi! 1. He was trying to help you and apologized when the potion didn’t work. 2. When he asked you to leave him behind and rescue the others in the Iron Throne. Something about him is a lot more human than the others. I wish we could’ve recruited him vs. The Emperor
@@InkWarlock333the thing is I think even Omeluum knew he had no chance against the Nether Brain. Because mind flayer colonies are a hive mind, Omeluum may have suspected he too would be enthralled if he stayed any longer. Its why I have some sympathy for the Emperor. He could only have his freedom through the subjugation of Orpheus. And even if you did side with him, he can only go back to living in the shadows.
Seeing that I’m even more annoyed that Lae’zel never offers to become illithid so Orpheus doesn’t need to transform. Girl, why you kissing ass but not falling on your sword for Orpheus??
Everything about her response as is makes sense for her character. It would not make sense for her to INSIST on becoming Illithid instead of him, to the point of making demands and truly criticizing his decisions. Laezel respects that's she's not the leader in the majority of situations. She was reluctant to question Vlaakith under her guidance, and is reluctant to question Orpheus under his guidance, even if she disagrees with it.
You cannot be shamed for not being ready to do a literal kys. It’s good if someone is ready to do this for the sake of the greater good, but it’s not bad if you are not ready.
I feel like the Emperor should’ve had an option to convince him (persuasion check) that releasing Orpheus to fight with us would be more beneficial than simply killing him to consume his power. The “screw it, I’m not getting my way so I’m going back to brainwashed servitude” just doesn’t seem like something that character would do.
I agree too, but I think it makes sense from the Emperor's perspective. Orpheus *hates* mindflayers and not only has the Emperor kept him caged and abused, he also slaughtered his honor guard when they tried to save him. Once Orpheus is free, the Emperor has no cards left to play and it's likely that Orpheus will either curbstomp him the second he gets out or after the Netherbrain is defeated. In every outcome, the Emperor loses. He only has two choices; trust his fate to you, someone he can't control, or take matters into his own hands and forge an alliance with the super-evolved Netherbrain that's on the brink of victory. He chose the logical option for his own survival.
@omniatronic You hit the nail on the head. The Emperor's primary and only perogative is self-preservation. It makes sense that he would choose the only option available to him in that scenario, so long as it means he will survive.
Why would Orpheus work with the emperor and not just kill him on the spot after being freed? There is literally no way that Orpheus is going to forgive the person that kept him imprisoned for all those years.
@@Foodisgood Orpheus is willing to become a mindflayer only to save everyone else. A fate worse than death for Githyanki. Working with a mindflayer seems much less extreme - even if he probably would have some qualms about the possibilty of the emperor controlling the nethebrain.
Would it been cool if there was a way to convince both emperor and prince 2 work together. E.g if every time we befriend the emperor through out the game the difficulty roll to persuade him later will get easier. While choosing to be more hostile will make the difficulty roll increase. Making it more likely to fail and have to choose a side.
Have you checked the texts where the Emperor is the one revealing possiboe brain business to Ketheric, G and O?? Orpheus might be moat reasonable but we would be right to think the Emperor would be into world domination if given the chance.
There's no way that could ever happen with how badly the Emperor abused Orpheus and murdered dozens or possibly hundreds of members of his honour guard. Orpheus 100% would be killing him after the brain is dead.
@@TheHandgunheroto be fair, Orpheus would have killed the party if he knew they were infected, and of still had his honour guard. As Voss pointed out, he would only agree to work with the party because he's forced to. I think there is no perfect resolution to this choice. It is true that freeing Orpheus means a possible liberation of the Githyanki people. But the Emperor "was" Balduran, and did far more for the party than Orpheus did.
It's a little annoying how Orpheus accuses you of stealing the egg even when you talk with the Githyanki Varsh Ko'kuu and convince him to let you keep the egg, since it was going to be destroyed anyways and he wanted it to have a fair chance at life as the rest of the others. You literally are giving it a chance to live instead of prematurely dying and he's mad...
always was annoyed at orpheus' general reactions upon being freed. straight up tells you, "you should have known better and let yourself be fucking killed/kill yourself". bro lmao.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God he's basically the strongest psionic to ever live. He was able to transform himself into a mind flayer without even taking the tadpole. He knows just from looking at you 😂 Another idea might be that he basically knows everything that the emperor was able to see from the prism as the emperor was using his power to shield you, so it would make sense for Orpheus's mind to always be focused at you and your actions
It took me til act 3 to hit me with the Emporer. I had a feeling things were off but when i thought about it, Larian allowing us to create our own dream visitor was brilliant narratively. Most people created the dream visitor to be attractive to them therefore the emporer taking on that visage for the reason it would make us easier to manipulate. From the beginning he encouraged us embracing the tadpoles which would make it harder for us to resist when he tried to force our conversion to a mind flayer. Later he confirmed it if you side against him that he knew everything about us...etc. The whole game he was manipulating and i think his goals was to eventually control the brain himself. He was a villain from the beginning.
Yep, and in a dream dialogue with Emperor (specifically when he was flirting with the player) , he did say he studied the player character's interests, desires, etc. Implying that he shaped the Dream Guardian according to the player's interests and desires. He wanted to manipulate us from the very beginning.
The issue there is that the Emperor is genuinely benevolent until he perceives some act of betrayal or disloyalty, that's when whatever is left of his old personality shuts down and his instincts as a Mindflayer kick in, and a Mindflayer has no qualms about mind-control on others because they don't perceive it as evil; they genuinely think enslaving people to their will is a good thing because it makes them more productive and able to do what the Mind Flayer considers to be the best course of action, and doing so is kind of just a thankless chore they have to do for the Greater Good and not even a necessary evil. Those who can act in a Mind Flayer's interests without being forced to do so are the closest thing a Mind Flayer has to friends and comrades, and the Emperor shows that he values his friends highly, but with how easy it is to break a friendship with him it becomes obvious just how much of a ticking time-bomb he is; he's a genuinely Good person, but his alignment will shift to Evil at the drop of a hat because he's still a Mind Flayer with no self-awareness of what that state of being does to someone.
@@Brutalyte616 I respect your take but i unfortunately disagree. I think Emperor is Neutral at best, not Good. He literally mind-dominated Stelmane, BUT if we act nice to him, the game just won't give us the chance to discover that truth. So if we stay loyal to him until the end it will definitely seem that he is a genuinely good guardian angel all the time, instead of a manipulative Mind Flayer. here's some of his real stuff: [ th-cam.com/video/qIl9fl1HtUs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Y9RICGoWbpjeWDla ]
@@fosaimaginator3920 I'd argue that he's Neutral Good, skirting the law and ethics in pursuit of the Greater Good and not really to his exclusive benefit, although he DOES see himself being in charge and everybody listening to him as part of the Greater Good, as he values free will and autonomy so long as it doesn't run contrary to his idea of what's best for everyone. When he falls back on his Mind Flayer instincts however, all of his previous morals are discarded and he flips over to Neutral Evil; he's not overly malicious, but there's also no hesitation to do immoral and unethical things, because Mind Flayers have a distorted view of morality and ethics since they see themselves as shepherds to all other life in the universe and view all other intelligent life as either prey or potential obstacles to Mind Flayer supremacy and thus an obstacle to the betterment of the universe.
I wish there was an option to convince Gale to turn into a mind flayer instead of persuading him to use the orb. That way, he'd return the crown to Mystra and then she'd return him to his original form - and also return him to her side. He'd physically die, but his soul would live with her in the realm of the gods. I think this would be a perfect ending for a non-romanced Gale. Why isn't this an option???
Because he explains earlier in the game that the transformation itself will set the orb off immediately anyway, since he won't be able to stabilize it himself anymore.
@@jelihai7420 He doesn't need to stabilize it, Mystra has literally locked the orb in place and it will go off only if activated at will. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to fully transform when you play as Gale. I'm just saying, if there is already an option to fully transform when you play as Gale, I see no reason to dismiss this possibility when he's a follower. As it is, if the player wants to keep Orpheus intact, our options are incredibly shitty.
Because it's not possible as the transformation destroys the soul. Withers says in a post credit scene that's how God's realised what the dead three was up to, mass deaths but no influx of souls to the after life
I doubt it. The Emperor basically became the new vlaakith for him after she lost the Astral prism. While inside he was the one killing the honor guard attempting to rescue Orpheus, using his power to keep out of the Netherbrains influence.
To be fair, Emps could have eaten Orpheus at any point, but only chose to after saving the world required an Illithid operating outside of the the prism.
@@gabrielrussell5531 I believe when you find out he's an illithid you have the option to suggest killing orpheus and taking his power. But I forgot what the Emperor replied regarding why it didn't want to do that.
@@NeoCreo1 Exactly. He's selfish and so chose the path that would lead him a mindless slave helping to destroy the world. And most likely other worlds as well. Not exactly the behavior of a good guy there.
The Emperor is the worst kind of DM NPC ever. “No, you have to ally with me and bring me to the final battle where I will beat the final antagonist for you!!!” “Fine, if you don’t do what I say then I’ll attack you even though you’re the only hope of the world living 😡😡😡”
No, you’re just not smart enough to see why it aligned with the plot. When you betray him and free Orpheus you literally sentence him to death, he’s only protected from the brain control bc of Orpheus’s powers, powers that Orpheus’s will withdraw at first sight and then obviously kill him. The emperor makes the only choice he can to survive at that point in hopes he’ll break free somehow in the future
Editted: So initially when I tried this I got auto-transformed by Orpheus. I have since found out this is because I didn't pick the dialogue option when talking to the Emperor that I would change into a Mind Flayer, thus no discussion with the party members on the matter and then him not giving me the Astral Tadpole. This meant Orpheus opened my character to be transformed by the Elderbrain. It is highly important you initially agree to become a mindflayer when talking to the Emperor, have the break in conversation to talk to the party, talk to Lae'zel and Gale, continue conversation with Emperor, agree to become a mindflayer, get the tadpole, get to the point where he talks of chowing on Orpheus in our stead, Lae'zel interupts, you then say you are going to free Orpheus, Emperor bugs off, pick all top options with Orpheus apart from when saying you trust Gale, cue no transformations. (other than that bug near the end of the conversation with Orpheus where for one shot you are ghaik).
@@NeoIsrafil Definitely Lae'zel and Gale, the third can be whomever you want, but at this point if you are going for this ending using Gale's orb, then the game is pretty much over as you can stealth through/around the courtyard and beyond with a little help from jump/flying and a greater invis potion, as long as one person makes it to the stem, the cut-scene then will yoink everyone in party to that scene and then tell Gale to use the orb and enjoy the fireworks and end cut-scenes.
@@SirUlrichVLWhat happens when you follow this route but instead of letting Gale use the orb, could we just climb as a team and face the NB? Or is that option missing once this route is used?
@@cOMM4ND3R Well if you get to the brain stem and tell Gale he can use the orb, it then just goes into a cut-scene of him transporting you and the others away and then climbing. I don't know what would happen if you picked another option, I imagine either the nether brain transforms us and get a fail game game over or maybe Orpheus either transforms himself or us.
I know Orpheus says his honor guard would have freed him but they had no means to break the chains. So even if we had surrendered to his honor guard, he'd still be stuck.
Especially since even with the hammer, they wither wouldn't be able to use it, or would suddenly not use it. Even still, if there is no reason for people to die, why whine and complain about being "granted death" when it would have been a utter wasteful one that only serves to help his enemies and the Netherbrain. A prince is so shortsighted and easy to anger over overly loyal pets, is not one who will likely make a great leader once he is in charge. While he is better than the queen in charge, he seems just as arrogant and insufferable as her in other ways. Especially since, just like the emperor, he just gives you the only ultimatum, and instead of saving his people, he would doom himself. While a noble sacrifice, it is an unneeded one that literally no one considers for some stupid unbeknownst reason.
@@bibby659 I managed to convince him to stay alive after becoming a mind flayer, but was very confused when I didn't get the option to tell him to help his own people with this more powerful form instead of just hiding away somewhere in the Astral plane like a coward. Hell, if he thought him being a mind flayer would be bad PR he could use his powers to just go around and eradicate any mind flayers hiding away in the universe.
@@boianko There is a dialogue option where you convince him, however you have to understand that y'know, if your long lost prince is gone for eons and suddenly comes back as a member of another SPECIES, in particular the species the enslaved you and your sworn enemy, known for controlling people's minds.... that's a hard sell.
This is actually how I did my first playthrough. I was a Githyanki monk romancing Laezel and I didn’t want me, Laezel, or Orpheus to die/become a mindflayer. Me and Laezel flew off to destroy Vlaakith
So I think in the scene where you appear as mind flayer it’s more of a symbolic thing of what Orpheus sees of the future, he’s envisioning you as the only mind flayer that he would ever call a hero/comrade. It could also just be a visual glitch lol but it does feel more intended.
Lol, it's definitely a glitch. The option to have Gale sacrifice himself without anyone turning into a mind flayer isn't available unless you go through all these loopholes to get it.
@@AimForMyHead81It's not really a loophole. It seems like an half-finished ending. Some dialogue options are there, others are not. They really should make it more explicit.
@fumoblitzkrie They've updated and patched this game multiple times, and it's still full of unfinished content and glitches. Larian did a great job with Baldur's Gate 3 but numerous issues still remain unfixed, even after all this time.
Damn, I never knew how intense the debate between Karlach and Lae'zel at the end of the battle. I always assume that one of the party just convince you to not be an Illithid, and that's it.
orpheus didn't consider that the party don't want to die and want to save themselves from being a mind flayer. that's dumb of him. if he had offered to save them they would've helped him sooner
He assumes the party all have the typical Githyanki mentality and warrior ethos. Big mistake. These people aren't raised from birth to fear and hate mind-flayers and to sacrifice everything to stop them.
@@SidheKnight Yeah, even if in the end I helped Orpheus and sacrificed Gale, I can understand if someone doesn't care about the giths. I mean, you don't just CASUALLY end up with Vlaakith as a queen.
Did my first complete play through and I was NOT okay losing Gale like that. On my second play through I’m NOT recruiting Lae’zel so I won’t feel guilty of turning Orpheus into a ghaik so we can all live.
Don't worry: Orpheus turning into a Mind Flayer and dying after the fight is the best ending for her. She takes her place and is a more effective leader than him. She is even bringing truce between the Githyanki (Lawful Evil) and the Githzerai (Neutral Good) to fight Vlaakith. She will unite the Gith race once again.
@@NataliaNeeSamaThat also happens if the emperor swallows Orpheus and you convince her to trust you with the DC30 check, she was pretty happy with me in the epilogue even though she told me to go fuck myself 6 months earlier. Was funny though
Best option is to have a friend’s custom character join you and become illithid. This way, everyone lives. Have wyll go with karlach to avernus, and convince a romanced laezel to stay with you. Change my mind. 🤝🏼
I didn't know about the orb option. It's clearly the best solution which also makes Gale a true hero that will be remembered for ages. Given they all know there's an after life of some sort, it's an easy option to pick.
Oh shit this is great to know, thanks! I was considering having Gale use the orb anyway, had no idea you could avoid transformation if he's in party too!
Its funny that the Emperor is such a control freak that if things dont go his way even slightly, he tosses all his work and effort to the side and just calls it quits... what even then was the purpose of all his sacrifices. Why kill all his friends, family, and life long companions... only to end up giving himself over to the thing he spent forever trying to destroy. My guy kept insisting that being an illithid and assimilating Orpheus's power was and is the only way to fight the netherbrain... but refused to elaborate on any other path. If anything, he seemed to have been the only one so deadset on making sure there is only limited options. The Netherbrain was built up by him as something that can predict every move in a matter of seconds no matter how many possibilities. But, maybe, thats only because he was the one only giving himself limited choices to work with from the beginning. Its his own fault for what happens to him, and honestly, its for the best that he dies a true death that time, and forever. For all the people he's hurt in his narrow minded ambition, for the friends he betrayed along the way. For the friends he minipulated along the way, and the one he killed because they simply wanted him to keep his soul. There is no greater a disgrace than he. Even still, its still very annoying and kind of stupid there isnt or doesn't seem to really be many options here to say no one needs to be an illithid to do all this... honestly its pretty annoying, less there is a way and its just super complicated to make work. Because I really dont see how an illithid is needed for the Netherstones to work when we can use them even after stabbing whoever it is that was using them before. Its just kind of annoying st the lack of alternatives here, even when you have the possibility of making everyone live, and yet, no one seems to bother considering it a possibility.
Yeah, I was a bit confused by this as well. The netherstones seemed to work just fine in controlling the crown when split between 3 people, and you're travelling with 3 other high power allies that could do it. The game kind of implied the Elder Brain was somehow not under the full control of the netherstones throughout the story, but it contradicts itself when we clearly see it following orders that are of little benefit to it. Maybe it evolving into a Netherbrain makes the stones not work anymore if wielded by a being that isn't psychically powerful enough to wield them?
The Elderbrain could be controlled by the stones (barely. With the exception of being able to subtly plant dreams etc), but once it evolved into the Netherbrain, it was harder.
Thanks for sharing this. The path here is honestly counter-intuitive. Why did they write it so that the only result where no one has to transform starts by inquiring about yourself becoming a mindflayer, and ends with you saying you're willing to become one?
@dzikdziki2983 Most definently not supposed to happen like this. Like obviously the goal is to have you make a difficult choice on who does the sacrifice
karlach is so sweetheart always believes in you no matter what you decide to do and is also ready to sacrifice herself for save her's friend's and the world. She is a pure soul for sure and she deserves all the good things.
tbf le'zel I took the orphic hammer more as an opportunity to loot a sick demon vault, have sex with a demon, and then slay said demon. the hammer was the journey
I wish there was a way to free Orpheus without the Emperor turning on you. Ngl, the writing in this game is amazing, but it feels out of character for the Emperor to join the Netherbrain if you choose to free Orpheus imo. He's been fighting for his freedom against the Netherbrain this whole time, it doesn't make sense for him to sacrifice his freedom just because you disagree with his plan... if anything he should just fight you there & then for the stones so he can carry out the plan on his own.
As powerful as he is for a mind flayer, he's also not stupid. He's watched you kill avatars of gods and dragons and what not, he knows damn well he has NO shot at beating you let alone your whole party. He'd be better off just removing his protection of you and attempting to kill you while you're still weak from the change. All in all though as much as it feels bad, they did make a fantastic ending sequence where you can't really get a "BEST ENDING", it's more of a choose which double-edged sword you'd like to swing.
@@nonaG123The prince becoming illithid is technically the best ending because its poetical , while Lazel and others continue his will. However the emperors decision in the end leads to a really awkward situation. You basically let the only solution you have go away without any persuasion attempts. There s nothing to summarize either because non of the relationship choices matter. That way druid grove chapter has more variability than the actual finale in comparison. The outcome feels rushed and i think there is still plenty of QOL changes coming im regards to story , specifically chapter 3.
@@nonaG123 If he had any morals he would just kill himself. Joining the nethebrain is akin to suicide but worse. So he either has no morals or is just a badly written moment.
Thank you very much for sharing, this is the best ending in my opinion, unfortunately I couldn't do it in my first run, now I realize it was because I didn't have laezel with me, unfortunately she died in act 2, in the meeting with vlakitth things went wrong control.
**SOME ADDITIONAL BACKGROUND AND FAQS** Hello! I’ve seen a lot of similar comments pertaining to a couple different aspects of the clip since I initially uploaded the video, so I thought I’d answer them here for better visibility. 1.) How do you have so much health? This clip was captured with Explorer Mode active, which doubles your health. My character is also wearing the Amulet of Greater Health from the House of Hope which sets your CON score to 23. He also has the permanent buff Tharchiate Vigor for the extra 20 temporary HP. 2.) Why did you turn into a Mind Flayer for a second? I have no idea. It was a startling bug the first time I had seen it, but upon completion of the rest of the finale, the game recognized that no one had transformed, and Gale was a hero. 3.) Were any mods used? None whatsoever. This was captured after Patch 4 on PS5, so mods are not an option. I have not played this scenario again since Patch 5 and the new Epilogue was added, but based on what I’ve read Lae’Zel’s story ends the exact same way, if she returns to her people, whether Orpheus is transformed or not. If you want a non-illusionary Gale to be at your party, however, you cannot play through this scene as shown, and someone has to transform. Just let Orpheus do it. Lol
I know #2 is probably just a bug, but I'm choosing to see it as a moment of artistic poetry. As if Orpheus already sees your destiny as a mind flayer when he kneels to you and speaks of how you will be hailed as a hero, not something that is literally happening in the moment.
We will probably have to do it through mods... Larian is determined to not finish their game, and just to spend all their time "fixing" bugs that give the players advantages they "shouldn't have". Gotta love it ....
I actually like her ending my Tav + Wyll + Karlach on top of their abilities go to avernus to kick some ass :) nothing wrong with it. Poor little Zariel keep in mind demons always fight each other for power so they the party can find and build some new alliances to overthrow (or negotiate) Zariel at some point. I don't think that Karlach is that important for Zariel to risk everything. (for dnd nerds I checked Zariel starts it's definitely doable after few level ups in Avernus😁 )
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@@j1n2my vengeance paladin illithid with Blood of Lathander, berserker barbarian Karlach with returning trident and blade warlock Wyll are kicking devil's butts in Avernus!
I can only see the Emperor as a manipulative villain. I didn’t want my character to become a mind flayer and he kept pushing it. Once I freed orpheus and he asked me to he basically scolded me and said “fine, I may be the destined savior of my entire race but I’ll be the one to do it. You baby.”
If you use the orb in Act 2, then everyone else becomes a mind flayer who had a tadpole. If you destroy the brain with the crown, you also order the brain to destroy the tadpoles. So if you use the orb this way, do you get a good ending, or do the tadpoles stay around and turn everyone along the coast?
Gale’s sacrifice ending in Act 3 plays out with everyone’s tadpole being destroyed, and the scenes on the docks play out like normal, with everyone acknowledging Gale as the savior of the Sword Coast.
The difference between acts 2 and 3 is that we are making the brain have the tadpoles stop everything / go into forced stasis before we blow up. In act 2 if we blow up there is no such restriction to keep the brain worms from completing their natural life cycle.
@@Denkenobi Weird that if you destroy the Absolute in Act 2, the mind flayers take over the coast, then. So do your party's worms die if Gale sacrifices?
the emperor siding with the netherrealm after all that the party has been through fely a little forced, even if it sees failure as a possible outcome, he can side with the brain at the end, idk it made me hate the character
His whole philosophy is survival and he's basically afraid orpheus will kill him for stealing his power and being illithid, whether before or after the nether brain. Hes escaped the brain 2 times already so it makes sense that it may be his best chance of survival
@@lokiserpentem8534 you got a point there, I must admit. Still when it happened I just felt betrayed. After everything we went through, he could have some faith in us. Either way I guess this shows the great job Larian did.
@FernandoCuadro At the end of the day the Emperor was a truly horrible and evil character. He lies, manipulates and gaslights you the whole way, and when you learn the truth of what he did to Stelmane and his implied threats that he could do the same to you if you reject his advances... Fucking yikes.
This looks like a graphical bug or something more than “no one getting transformed”. It’s actually the path I took in my last playthrough where I got the ceremorphisis achievement because I transformed myself. It looked like you transformed in the final piece of the cut scene but somehow or another weren’t in game. Weird
I kinda felt like they ddint make the emperors end thorough enough, every time you fight an important character, (or youre about to) theres countless oppurtunities to avoid the fight beforehand right up to the point before it happens. I feel like there should have been a dialogue or something before you fight The Emperor and try to get him to help you again or something. Come on Balduran, look around you, look at your city, is this what you truly want? Maybe even convincing him back would've been crucial to ending the brain, as Balduran and Orph kill it together with Tav.
Before I start my lengthy rant: If you even so much as consider letting Karlach turn into a Mind Flayer, you too have no soul. No way I'd let that happen to the best devil-mama in all the Realms!!! "You leave me no option but to join the Netherbrain" I've said it before and I'll say it again: This is such horseshit. How was him joining the Brain even *ever* on the table? According to his own words, the Emperor wanted "freedom" - and it doesn't matter if it's his personal freedom or that of the people of Faerun. In joining the Netherbrain, he basically undoes everything that's been accomplished by him and the party and starts to work against his own former wishes and aims. Plus the one thing he won't be getting out of this is freedom. What's the new goal he's pursuing with this? He won't be able to dominate the brain, because he doesn't have the stones or Orpheus' protection and once he leaves the prism, he'll be enthralled. So, best case scenario here would be to help defeat the party and to ensure the Brain taking over the city and probably the entire Swordcoast. And in doing so he would simply be reduced to just another mindless drone in the service of the Brain. Even him staying behind in the prism and ignoring the entire final battle would make *more* sense on a story-level (IMO) than him suddenly doing a 180 and deciding to switch sides. Heck, he could just attack the party right there to try and grab the stones - and/or attempt to absorb Orpheus against the wishes of the party. Anything but *this*. I understand why this has to happen at this point in the story: This is meant to be a point where some sort of bitter sacrifice has to be made - a moment that has lasting consequences beyond the game's ending. I just wish they could've come up with a different explanation why the Emperor feels his only option is one that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Personally, I couldn't give a crap about Lae'zel's people and their problems, so I didn't have any problems letting Orpheus die or to turn him into a Mind Flayer. The Gith seem way too arrogant and narrow-minded WRT the people of Faerun - they're basically only focused on their own problems. That's why I find it hilarious to hear Lae'zel berate the rest of the party for being "selfish", when everyone in the party are willing to turn into Mind Flayers or sacrifice themselves to save the day. While all *she* can think about is herself and her people whom she wants to liberate from her tyrannical queen's rule. BTW: Having the Emperor switch sides makes the final fight a bit harder, but not impossibly so. I did this on my first Tactician run but I struggled more with the final-final bit of the battle that comes after you defeat the Emperor.
Just have whoever became ilithid spam black hole near the dragon to group half the enemies and spam cast AOE spells, works fine to me, especialy with a storm cleric on haste/speed pot and create water spell while giving everyone fire resist pots On the Emperor switchign side, yeah looked very out of chracter considering he sign his own demise regardless, unless he consider his freedom and free will to be lesser than his life, beign a brain dead puppet or dead isn't really different
Letting Karlach transform is the logical choice. She's doomed anyway. Either she commits suicide post battle or she's forced to live in hell for the rest of her life while being chased by her former slavemaster. At least this way she gets to choose to die doing something heroic. Still, not being able to fix her is bullshit. Act 3 is full of reinforced infernal iron from the Steel Watchers. They should have served to permanently fix her engine.
This is honestly where the game lost me in all honesty. The fact that the emperor whines and cries about not trusting him and then goes to join the elder brain out of fucking spite to fight you. What a load of bullshit man and you have nearly no say in it either, despite all you've done and accomplished they make it you HAVE to choose between Orpheus or him. I wish it was different, oh I wish, that you could at least convince him to fight with you at the end despite his frustration in the matter.
Agreed. It just feels like a HUGE slap in the face to the people who refused to eat a tadpole, become half illithid, and want to give Lae'zel an actual good leader to follow. In video games as well as D&D you do require just enough railroading in order to move the story along but this is too much. We should've been able to stop the big brain without sacrificing Gale, without siding with a Mindflayer, or making anyone transform!
@@liamwhite3522with high enough stats, good rolls and proper planning you can always achieve this sort of ending in D&D and in life. The game doesn't allow you to because Larian doesn't know how to DM. Time, brainpower, hard work,are all sacrifices of their own sorts too. Can you achieve with no sacrifice? Probably not, but even if you get a perfectly happy ending you still had to plan THAT well, and set things up that perfectly, and spend all those hours prepping for your win. It's a mistake to think that the only kind of sacrifice that exists in trying to reach your goals is the kind that makes you suffer, sometimes the sacrifice is one of removing simplicity.
Orpheus: My honor guard would have freed me, and I would have stopped the Elder Brain before it turned into a Netherbrain. *checks Orpheus stats* *Checks Orin and Gortash Encounters* *hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm*
I always felt like there should have been a way to persuade Gale to become the Mind Flayer. That way, he can use the orb, destroy the absolute, and live.
I just started my second playthrough and realised the emperor is the bastard who infected us all in the first place. I felt so betrayed coz I thought he was sincere lol. I'm definitely going to free Orpheus, this time around.
Do you know I’ve sunk quite a bit of time into this game and I’m still only on act three. However, I don’t think I can finish this game because quite frankly this is one of the most depressing endings of any video game I’ve ever played. There are no happy endings
Karlach is quite happy to become illithid, for one reason : it shut down her engine permanently She become a saviour and live to tell the tale although she aknowledge she's a tentacle monster (jokingly)
Yah, it's cyberpunk all over again. It's like this generation of writers have collectively decided that if you can get an actually happy ending it's too cheesy or unrealistic because life is pain and suffering so they write in pain and suffering forgetting that that's what we play to ESCAPE.
@@Alpha1598753 There are two problems with Karlach's situation: 1. Her Act 3 quest that was meant to be a continuation of fixing her heart got removed when the Upper City district wasn't added in the launch version of the game, so what we end up with is a variation of her 'bad ending'. 2. Ceremorphosis, although physically excruciating, imposes feelings of ecstasy, contentment and elation on the future/transformed victim. This was portrayed back in early access in the form of Daisy, a conjuration by the tadpole tempting you to give in. But with that also cut and not much additional info, it's easy to mistake Karlach's eagerness to transform and happiness afterward as real. It's mostly the case of number 1, so hopefully the devs would include her complete quest and Omeluum in a future patch, and everyone can live happily ever after.
My ending was pretty happy. Lae'zel stuck around Faerun, Astarion is in the Underdark somewhere leading a bunch of spawn, Karlach and Wyll busting demons in Avernus(so she actually had a friend and Wyll gets to stay the Blade), Gale gets his crown Minsc survives along with Jaheira, and Shadowheart is my bae and has her parents. And the world isn't destroyed.
I’ll admit the emperor gaslit and totally won me over the first time but I wanted to see how it’d be if my dark urge never fully trusts him and he so quickly shows his true character, my gith durge is going to love shittjng on him
I love how between You and Karlach are asking about how to delicate the situation, lae’zael is the only one who first tells you to be Selfless then process to tell you to be selfish to see save her people.
Its a shame that the weakest plot point happens right in the ending... Like, you dont know if this is just unfinished or they really wanted to make a point that the Emperor DGAF the whole time.
This is nope. Just nope…. No matter if romanced or not, i never let Gale die. I like him too much, so i can’t do it ❤ I rather sacrifice Orpheus, than any companion. I mean, he’s some NPC you just met n the end. Your companions ate those who go through everything with you, and you help them through all,their problems. They are your friends or even partners if romanced Does the emperor ending not demand someone become a Mindflayer, too?
The Emperor is a classic abuser. He demands trust, but lies to you constantly (and then straight claims he never has lied to you). He takes the slightest deviation from his plans as an outright betrayal, and then he leaves without giving you a chance to defend your position.
Ugh I can't deal with Orpheus. He's fodder every run for me lol. I love how many details and options there are in this game. It's a freaking masterpiece
Still works in patch 7, For me best ending. Gale gets his redemption. Everybody keeps their souls, including Gale cause he blows himself up, and all Illithids are dead.
I’m so annoyed. My game glitched and I even tried going back to an earlier save but every time I got to this conversation I couldn’t get my companions to jump down to this platform, so I was just there by myself. I wanted to see their reactions and inputs
Imagine being so dumb to think that betraying the Emperor is the right choice since he is the one that makes 90% of the work and saved us many times,only ingrateful bastards would disagree. also the game is about freeing from masters's shackes so Layzel jumping from one god to another would be a bad move, she leading the resistance against Vlakiit is the most Canon ending. If they never make a way to make peace between Orpheus and Emperor the decision is Cristal Clear.
You have to agree to become a mindflayer with the emperor first and take his tadpole. Then reject the emperor. Only then can you convince Orpheus not to turn you then and there.
Emperor: "Trust me bro."
Tav: "Alright bro, but trust me too."
Emperor: "Aight bro, it was good but I gotta bounce."
His decision makes absolutely no sense. Why, just why, would he go back to the brain? What possible benefit could this be to him? His individuality would be yet again consumed.
@@zacharyberridge7239 The best explanation I've seen is that Orpheus would instantly kill him when set free, since the emperor was keeping him imprisoned and drained for gods know how long.
Without Orpheus' power to shield himself from the Brain, it would take him over. And he still has no faith in Gale to actually pull through and blow up the brain, and thus only free Orpheus after killing the brain.
So, it's a simple calculation to him that returning willingly to the brain and ingratiating himself to it would give him the best odds of survival.
Really though, in this situation, he should accept the Gale solution and allow the player to free Orpheus later, but that would be a huuuuge extra branch in an already huge game that had to cut a lot of endgame content. XD
@@AegixDrakan orpheus won't because he know an ilithid is needed to counter the brain. He was even willing to sacrifice himself if no one want to turn.
I always found it funny how quick the Emperor changes sides.
@@arcmen2275 agree, Orpheus saw the party slaughting his honor guard and still dont attack. He is probably the most "big picture" guy in the whole story. He is willing to become a mind flayer (the thing he hates most in the world) to stop the nether brain, not killing the Emperor seems like an easy task. It is one of the few clunks part of the story the way the Emperor leaves. They should have put some aditional reasoning.
It's even sillier that the Emperor went to rejoin the Netherbrain in this context, since it was literally told "We're about to magically nuke the entire area." Like, bro, you're not going to survive that.
Yes, I think that’s a bug in the story.
It's more stupid when you realize the Emperor is essentially killing himself, he has 0 freewill or individual thought under the Netherbrain. So he's kind of just throwing away any kind of freedom to spite you, presumably because he knows Orpheus will murder him while the brain will just enslave him.
It re enthralled him without Orpheus protection.
@@ArneBab no bug in the story, he has not power over Orpheys capacity, so he became controled by the netherbrain
@@lodysseedunedolyen5682 If you would give him the ring of mental protection you get from Omeluun, that might protect him if Orpheus were to cut off his protection and then he’d actually have a base for negotiation with Orpheus. (sorry for leaving out that part)
I hate the emperor. He expects you to trust him, but then betrays you the first chance he gets because you don't want to do exactly what he wants you to do.
my theory is he’s just a separate extension of the elder brain that thinks he’s independent, like an ultron drone or something. he’s just a thrall that thinks he’s independent. that’s why he IMMEDIATELY goes to work with the nether brain, his “enslaver” when you even suggest his plan isn’t right.
@@femboygorou If he was an extension of elder brain then he wouldnt spend the whole game trying to defeat it.
What is more likely, he actually behaves like an elder brain. After all he is an ilithid at heart and even if he has some inviduality his instincts compell him to do so. He want to defeat the elder brain only because its a threat to him - if he could become an elder brain he would.
Thats why he doesnt care about losing his personality and joining the elderbrain - he is thinking like an illithid. For humans losing yourself is death, but for illithids its just a state of being. That would explain why he joins the brain so easily in the end.
I think they just didnt finish fleshing out the story about the prism and emperor
He’s trying to live
He has two issues that really drive his character: 1) Survival is everything. Better to be a slave to the brain than dead. 2) He always thinks he’s right. He believes that his big brain is so advanced he’s thought of every possibility and is certain that his plan is the only one that will work. So when you refuse to work with him, he sees it as having no other choice than to give up on you for his own safety because in his mind you are guaranteed to fail. But, if you do go along with his plan and work with him, he’s just fine. No double crosses, no surprise twist betrayal, everything goes smoothly and afterwards he even wants to keep working with you
If you resist Emperior the entire game especally when he tries to seduce you he will reveal how he manipulated basically mindcontrolled all of his former allies in the flashbacks from earlier.
I'm surprised of How easy we can miss that scene, It changes the context of our relation with the emperor in fundamental levels
I think that's just the game world evolving to fit your narrative. Any decision you make is justified in its own way. Like astarion's ascension, if he succeeds he's happy. If he didn't, he's happy that he didn't have that burden. This is true for shadowheart's path too. There's no right decision. If the emperor is good in your playthrough, he's all the way good. If he's bad, he was cunning from the beginning.
When I got to the romance scene I accidentally misinput and called him a freak, guess I gotta prison shank his ass now.
@@InnerFire6213 no actually empror is not good person but not bad either he is an opportunist as long as he thinks he gains something from with siding you he will be in your side but when you do not follow his plan he thinks he will lose this battle and changes sides so yes shadowhearts and astarions characters evolves by the choices you made but empror was same from the begining he only wants to use you for his own purposes
@@InnerFire6213 That’s… an interesting take that I strongly disagree with. Ascended Astarion is very clearly Cazador 2.0 and a much more horrible person. Dark Justiciar Shadowheart is the same, being the empty tool of Shar. Just because they do not regret the change that fundamentally warps their personality, does not mean the game is retroactively “justifying” your playthrough. Emps always used mind control, that never changes per playthrough, you just aren’t given the opportunity to discover this unless you consistently oppose him. That is keeping with his character as a ruthless, if pragmatic, opportunist. If he can work with you? Great, he’ll do just that and keep the manipulations to a minimum. If he can’t? He’ll do what it takes to ensure his survival.
Emperor: “if you're not with me, then you're my enemy”
Tav: “Only a Mind flayer would make deals with the absolute… i’ll do what I must”
Emperor: “You will try.”
Only sweet noble karlach offered. Truly the best person in the party. For all her talk laezel was never gonna offer herself for sacrifice, not even when her prince was going to become ghaik. The legendary saviour of her race. I think even voss would quickly jump in to save his prince.
Karlach knew she was gonna die anyways, and doesn’t have Lae’zel’s lifelong experience and hatred of Illithids.
The idea of becoming one wouldn’t even register to her I don’t think, it’s surprising enough she still finds respect for you if you have transformed.
@@Praetorian349 and laezel knows without orpheus there would be no rebellion, kind of her whole moral compass after turning her back to vlaakith. Can't imagine a higher purpose than that, she was willing to die for vlaakith when she was a fanatic. What would she do when orpheus is gone? Take up a hobby in baldurs gate? I think this was an overlook in the writing room.
@@InnerFire6213 Well from the ending I saw she was very much looking forward to a life with my Tav, endless sex and fighting Vlaakith's Knights in pursuit of her and my Tav as fugitives.
Kinda sounds right up her alley. :P
He would, but he's not normal. Lae'zel is a typical gith, they ARE an evil race, selfish, they are raised to be. It's how they survive as a species in such a harsh situation. Red dragons do not ally themselves with good races...ever.
Orpheus is as close to a good gith as we encounter in game, but if memory serves he's still part of the faction that wants to end the mind flayers to take over the multiverse themselves, a gith empire instead of an illithid one. The faction that feels it's wrong to do what the illithid do isnt really represented here sadly.
There is a relatively small cameo of the Githzerai (the "good gith" faction) in the Mind Flayer colony.
8:36 The Emperor complementing us on our manipulation skills is probably the highest praise you could get from someone like him.
More trickery
Only the Orphic Macguffin, forged in Hell itself by Raphael, can break the bonds of Orpheus... or apparently some random gith monks. And of course Orpheus is angry you didn't know this.
Well... If there's one thing I've learned in my years of D&D play... The one thing as powerful as a macguffin is a monk's unarmed strike past when the fists turn magical..lol. I guess a sufficiently motivated monk could do the job... Or at least, mine could punch through basically anything that was destructible in the game by 8th level.
tbh there is almost nothing that can't be broken with either a dispel magic, an adamantine mace, or a disintegrate
I think the implication is that they would get the optic hammer. I mean Voss was mid deal with Raphael
@@danieljames6138^^this
Voss can be seen practically begging Raphael to give the hammer or to make a deal with him if he tells you to meet with him at Shar's Caress. Presumably Voss's in some sort of connection with the guards (they're on the same side) who do have to deal with the emperor in the prism.
And of course Orpheus is gonna be pissed off that his most loyal guards were slaughtered all because you fell for an illithid's manipulations. But it's not like he attacks you after the fact beyond some harsh words, which is fairly reasonable all things considered for a gith.
The writing's pretty good at accounting for a fair chunk of these factors within its own homebrew of 5E so it's not like these are plot holes lol
Oh by the way saving Omelum from the prison for him to help us in the end wouldve been so rewarding
This should be a secret ending
Unfortunately, he doesn't join the fight. Hands you over some trinkets and skedaddles after the rescue mission.
Well look at that Mystra's idiotic plan was the best option all along.
yea
Of course it was
Only if Gale survives.
Does he at least get to go to her? I don't think I'll ever make the decision tbh. Maybe this honor mode pt, I guess
@@greyngreyer5 yeah he joins her as her chosen in Elysium
dude spends the whole game working against the brain and just rejoins with it at the end to spite us for finding an alternative
I keep telling people.
Balduran is an asshole
In his opinion, once Orpheus was freed he will be instantly killed, go to the brain is to be a slave again yes but a slave can still live
I was literally like “🤨🤔🤔🤔 dafuq???? Just like that??” Damn, I knew my spider senses weren’t wrong.
Because his goal is to control it.
The end felt rushed when it came to choices.
Like, there is nothing that discusses retaining humanity, the destruction of the soul.
I played a Cleric, why would I give up my eternal afterlife that was promised by my god?
That's why I sent Gale in, it made sense to me.
Honestly I wish there was an option to not turn and not to have to kill Orpheus. It would make the fight incredibly hard, yes - but it would be nice if there was a way.
I always kept thinkng back to Omeluum, who was able to resist without using Orpheus's power. Was wary of trusting him at first until the Iron Throne, when he constantly asks you to save everyone else, but him.
I wish there was an option to say to the emperor something like:
I'll give you the stones, but I will free Orpheus. You have my word that IF he turns against us instead of joining us, I will hold him up long enough to let you assimilate him and we will proceed with your plan.
by lore it will make the fight impossible because as they figured out one should have full illithid + orpheus powers to use the stones on the brain, otherwise brain can resist
@@Observer675 Omeluum could resist the Illithid hive mind because he's a Sorcerer. he was born with an affinity for arcane magic that made him resistant to the Elder Brain's control.
That's why Mind Flayers canonically find arcane magic abhorrent and shun it's users from their society.
Maybe if there was an extremely hard persuasion roll to convince the Emperor to stay with you, and maybe the only way to get him to do that is to have really high affinity, be half-illithid, or even (though I don’t like it) if you could only TRY and persuade him if you romanced him. I don’t like the last one though since it would lock you out of any other romances just for this so called “best ending”
It's possible that Gale's soul is destroyed based on the new epilogue content, Wither's doesn't seem to want to discuss what happened to gale
Best option IMO is just Orph taking the fall, lae'zel becomes a worthy successor if you let her leave to fight against Vlaakith, She actually accomplishes the same feats with or without Orph
I agree, Orpheus becomes basically Gith Jesus.
That's how it played out for me. I let Orpheus transform. In my mind it made sense. He was already a legend to his people, known to be a hugely successful killer of mindflayers. It seemed a fitting end to his legend that he sacrifice himself to end the mindflayer threat.
Laezel taking up the mantel to spread the word and fight to free her people from Vlaakith suits her character arc as well.
I was hoping though that since Orpheus gave Laezel his two dragons, that my character might get to ride along Laezel in this next fight.
Lae'zel leading her people to victory over Vlaakith sounds like great sequel content and somehow linked to the hell's and Blade of Avernus and Karlach messing up the devil's plots
Gale isn't really worth saving, best option for him is to follow Mystras will and sacrifice himself.
@@dragrn5 What's with the hate for gale with everyone, his good ending is so sweet, he becomes a professor for magic, and is just, a generally sweet guy. Mystra fucked him over and his whole arc is dealing with that, dude deserves a break not martyrdom.
It's so annoying that Orpheus says what we as the player could have done to earn his respect for freeing him, when precisely the option he suggests is nothing more than a game over and reloading a save.
Yep. And killing the Emperor at that point is also a game over. Infuriating!
Also how are the monks actually going to free him?
he can only be freed by the orphic hammer no?
It is supposedly the singular way to free him. Makes me question WTF the monks where doing that whole ass time.
Honestly this whole part of the game feels very poorly written.
@@chrisgeraghty9951 they were trapped inside de Astral Prism, they didn't have another choice i believe, only thing they could've done was to try
@chrisgeraghty9951 There are two things affecting Orpheus. The chains lock him in the Astral Prism. The Emperor's hold is what protects the party. The guard were about to break the Emperor's hold, not the chains.
@@henriquealves5740 they weren't trapped, they chose to stay because of their duty to Orpheus. maybe it was futile but they were his honor guard
Emperor was all too eager to throw away his own ideals and become a servant of the villain he's been helping you defeat, I knew I made the right call not trusting him -- never bet on a mind flayer they will always fuck you in the end
It's the one thing i'd say that was poorly written by Larian. Throughout the Game it's clear that the Emperor is very intelligent, has no intention of submitting to a Netherbrain again, and although he doesn't always tells the whole truth straight away, he does help you in every way he can.
It just sucks that there's no way to have the Emperor and Orpheus working together, and the Emperor joining forces with the Netherbrain just feels really forced and makes little sense after everything that happened before.
@@Tomcat_CoyoteIt would have been more realistic if I had activated the boss fight instantly like: “I’m going to take away your nether stones and do it myself” literally nothing was stoping him from do that, he sacrifice too much to just choose to be a slave at the end
The idea seems to be that The Emperor truly has no choice in the matter. Without the protection of Orpheus, he’s going to become another thrall of the netherbrain. It’s not like he can just ask that Orpheus continue to preserve his free will either given that he’s slain his honor guard and kept him bound for this long.
Except Omeluum! He’s a good boi!
1. He was trying to help you and apologized when the potion didn’t work.
2. When he asked you to leave him behind and rescue the others in the Iron Throne.
Something about him is a lot more human than the others. I wish we could’ve recruited him vs. The Emperor
@@InkWarlock333the thing is I think even Omeluum knew he had no chance against the Nether Brain. Because mind flayer colonies are a hive mind, Omeluum may have suspected he too would be enthralled if he stayed any longer.
Its why I have some sympathy for the Emperor. He could only have his freedom through the subjugation of Orpheus. And even if you did side with him, he can only go back to living in the shadows.
Seeing that I’m even more annoyed that Lae’zel never offers to become illithid so Orpheus doesn’t need to transform. Girl, why you kissing ass but not falling on your sword for Orpheus??
She can't
Everything about her response as is makes sense for her character. It would not make sense for her to INSIST on becoming Illithid instead of him, to the point of making demands and truly criticizing his decisions. Laezel respects that's she's not the leader in the majority of situations. She was reluctant to question Vlaakith under her guidance, and is reluctant to question Orpheus under his guidance, even if she disagrees with it.
@@asyanimasi3d If a gith like Orpheus can, and Tav/Karlach can, then what's stopping Lae'zel?
You cannot be shamed for not being ready to do a literal kys. It’s good if someone is ready to do this for the sake of the greater good, but it’s not bad if you are not ready.
I feel like the Emperor should’ve had an option to convince him (persuasion check) that releasing Orpheus to fight with us would be more beneficial than simply killing him to consume his power. The “screw it, I’m not getting my way so I’m going back to brainwashed servitude” just doesn’t seem like something that character would do.
I agree :|
I agree too, but I think it makes sense from the Emperor's perspective. Orpheus *hates* mindflayers and not only has the Emperor kept him caged and abused, he also slaughtered his honor guard when they tried to save him. Once Orpheus is free, the Emperor has no cards left to play and it's likely that Orpheus will either curbstomp him the second he gets out or after the Netherbrain is defeated. In every outcome, the Emperor loses. He only has two choices; trust his fate to you, someone he can't control, or take matters into his own hands and forge an alliance with the super-evolved Netherbrain that's on the brink of victory. He chose the logical option for his own survival.
@omniatronic You hit the nail on the head. The Emperor's primary and only perogative is self-preservation. It makes sense that he would choose the only option available to him in that scenario, so long as it means he will survive.
Why would Orpheus work with the emperor and not just kill him on the spot after being freed? There is literally no way that Orpheus is going to forgive the person that kept him imprisoned for all those years.
@@Foodisgood Orpheus is willing to become a mindflayer only to save everyone else. A fate worse than death for Githyanki. Working with a mindflayer seems much less extreme - even if he probably would have some qualms about the possibilty of the emperor controlling the nethebrain.
Would it been cool if there was a way to convince both emperor and prince 2 work together. E.g if every time we befriend the emperor through out the game the difficulty roll to persuade him later will get easier. While choosing to be more hostile will make the difficulty roll increase. Making it more likely to fail and have to choose a side.
Have you checked the texts where the Emperor is the one revealing possiboe brain business to Ketheric, G and O??
Orpheus might be moat reasonable but we would be right to think the Emperor would be into world domination if given the chance.
You aren't actually becoming his friend, though. He can't have friends. Illithids are soulless psychopaths.
There's no way that could ever happen with how badly the Emperor abused Orpheus and murdered dozens or possibly hundreds of members of his honour guard. Orpheus 100% would be killing him after the brain is dead.
@@TheHandgunheroto be fair, Orpheus would have killed the party if he knew they were infected, and of still had his honour guard. As Voss pointed out, he would only agree to work with the party because he's forced to.
I think there is no perfect resolution to this choice. It is true that freeing Orpheus means a possible liberation of the Githyanki people. But the Emperor "was" Balduran, and did far more for the party than Orpheus did.
The Emperor can't allow Orpheus to survive. He still believes in the Grand Design, he just wants to run the thing.
It's a little annoying how Orpheus accuses you of stealing the egg even when you talk with the Githyanki Varsh Ko'kuu and convince him to let you keep the egg, since it was going to be destroyed anyways and he wanted it to have a fair chance at life as the rest of the others. You literally are giving it a chance to live instead of prematurely dying and he's mad...
What? Did they add that in a patch, because all 3 times I freed Orpheus I had the gith egg on me and he didn't mention it at all.
Pretty silly he would mention it all. How would he know unless you pulled it out and told him how you stole it? 😂
always was annoyed at orpheus' general reactions upon being freed. straight up tells you, "you should have known better and let yourself be fucking killed/kill yourself". bro lmao.
@@Zyklon_B_still_and_know_God he's basically the strongest psionic to ever live. He was able to transform himself into a mind flayer without even taking the tadpole. He knows just from looking at you 😂
Another idea might be that he basically knows everything that the emperor was able to see from the prism as the emperor was using his power to shield you, so it would make sense for Orpheus's mind to always be focused at you and your actions
@@flamesofhellstudio I gave the egg to the Society of Brilliance, and he mentioned it for me.
It took me til act 3 to hit me with the Emporer. I had a feeling things were off but when i thought about it, Larian allowing us to create our own dream visitor was brilliant narratively. Most people created the dream visitor to be attractive to them therefore the emporer taking on that visage for the reason it would make us easier to manipulate. From the beginning he encouraged us embracing the tadpoles which would make it harder for us to resist when he tried to force our conversion to a mind flayer. Later he confirmed it if you side against him that he knew everything about us...etc. The whole game he was manipulating and i think his goals was to eventually control the brain himself. He was a villain from the beginning.
Did you play the game? Are you dumb? Do you even know what a villain is?
Yep, and in a dream dialogue with Emperor (specifically when he was flirting with the player) , he did say he studied the player character's interests, desires, etc. Implying that he shaped the Dream Guardian according to the player's interests and desires. He wanted to manipulate us from the very beginning.
The issue there is that the Emperor is genuinely benevolent until he perceives some act of betrayal or disloyalty, that's when whatever is left of his old personality shuts down and his instincts as a Mindflayer kick in, and a Mindflayer has no qualms about mind-control on others because they don't perceive it as evil; they genuinely think enslaving people to their will is a good thing because it makes them more productive and able to do what the Mind Flayer considers to be the best course of action, and doing so is kind of just a thankless chore they have to do for the Greater Good and not even a necessary evil. Those who can act in a Mind Flayer's interests without being forced to do so are the closest thing a Mind Flayer has to friends and comrades, and the Emperor shows that he values his friends highly, but with how easy it is to break a friendship with him it becomes obvious just how much of a ticking time-bomb he is; he's a genuinely Good person, but his alignment will shift to Evil at the drop of a hat because he's still a Mind Flayer with no self-awareness of what that state of being does to someone.
@@Brutalyte616 I respect your take but i unfortunately disagree. I think Emperor is Neutral at best, not Good. He literally mind-dominated Stelmane, BUT if we act nice to him, the game just won't give us the chance to discover that truth. So if we stay loyal to him until the end it will definitely seem that he is a genuinely good guardian angel all the time, instead of a manipulative Mind Flayer.
here's some of his real stuff:
[ th-cam.com/video/qIl9fl1HtUs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Y9RICGoWbpjeWDla ]
@@fosaimaginator3920 I'd argue that he's Neutral Good, skirting the law and ethics in pursuit of the Greater Good and not really to his exclusive benefit, although he DOES see himself being in charge and everybody listening to him as part of the Greater Good, as he values free will and autonomy so long as it doesn't run contrary to his idea of what's best for everyone.
When he falls back on his Mind Flayer instincts however, all of his previous morals are discarded and he flips over to Neutral Evil; he's not overly malicious, but there's also no hesitation to do immoral and unethical things, because Mind Flayers have a distorted view of morality and ethics since they see themselves as shepherds to all other life in the universe and view all other intelligent life as either prey or potential obstacles to Mind Flayer supremacy and thus an obstacle to the betterment of the universe.
I wish there was an option to convince Gale to turn into a mind flayer instead of persuading him to use the orb. That way, he'd return the crown to Mystra and then she'd return him to his original form - and also return him to her side. He'd physically die, but his soul would live with her in the realm of the gods. I think this would be a perfect ending for a non-romanced Gale. Why isn't this an option???
OMG that is so clever! That comment deserve more likes. I wish there was an ending for it!
Because he explains earlier in the game that the transformation itself will set the orb off immediately anyway, since he won't be able to stabilize it himself anymore.
@@jelihai7420 He doesn't need to stabilize it, Mystra has literally locked the orb in place and it will go off only if activated at will. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to fully transform when you play as Gale. I'm just saying, if there is already an option to fully transform when you play as Gale, I see no reason to dismiss this possibility when he's a follower. As it is, if the player wants to keep Orpheus intact, our options are incredibly shitty.
@@Emmerlaus007 There is an ending like that, but only if you play as Gale
Because it's not possible as the transformation destroys the soul. Withers says in a post credit scene that's how God's realised what the dead three was up to, mass deaths but no influx of souls to the after life
To think the Emperor would jump ship like that was insane.
To think, if the Emperor had just stayed with us after freeing Orpheus, he'd be the rebel Mindflayer hailed and spared by the prince.
Was thinking the exact same thing, but I could understand that orpheus could be quite mad about using/abusing his powers.
I doubt it. The Emperor basically became the new vlaakith for him after she lost the Astral prism. While inside he was the one killing the honor guard attempting to rescue Orpheus, using his power to keep out of the Netherbrains influence.
That’s brilliant!
More likely decapitated the second Orpheus is free. Gyth have no chill and all the reason to want smoke with mindflayers.
I can't fathom how anyone tries to claim that the Emperor wasn't a villain who showed his true colors when you wouldn't let him eat Orpheus.
To be fair, Emps could have eaten Orpheus at any point, but only chose to after saving the world required an Illithid operating outside of the the prism.
Because he wanted people to manipulate. The moment you were outside of his manipulation he peaced out on you
@@gabrielrussell5531 I believe when you find out he's an illithid you have the option to suggest killing orpheus and taking his power. But I forgot what the Emperor replied regarding why it didn't want to do that.
@@foxxknight8847 well, no shit? Of course he’s not going to go with the plan that guarantees his death
@@NeoCreo1 Exactly. He's selfish and so chose the path that would lead him a mindless slave helping to destroy the world. And most likely other worlds as well. Not exactly the behavior of a good guy there.
The Emperor is the worst kind of DM NPC ever. “No, you have to ally with me and bring me to the final battle where I will beat the final antagonist for you!!!” “Fine, if you don’t do what I say then I’ll attack you even though you’re the only hope of the world living 😡😡😡”
No, you’re just not smart enough to see why it aligned with the plot. When you betray him and free Orpheus you literally sentence him to death, he’s only protected from the brain control bc of Orpheus’s powers, powers that Orpheus’s will withdraw at first sight and then obviously kill him. The emperor makes the only choice he can to survive at that point in hopes he’ll break free somehow in the future
Editted: So initially when I tried this I got auto-transformed by Orpheus. I have since found out this is because I didn't pick the dialogue option when talking to the Emperor that I would change into a Mind Flayer, thus no discussion with the party members on the matter and then him not giving me the Astral Tadpole. This meant Orpheus opened my character to be transformed by the Elderbrain.
It is highly important you initially agree to become a mindflayer when talking to the Emperor, have the break in conversation to talk to the party, talk to Lae'zel and Gale, continue conversation with Emperor, agree to become a mindflayer, get the tadpole, get to the point where he talks of chowing on Orpheus in our stead, Lae'zel interupts, you then say you are going to free Orpheus, Emperor bugs off, pick all top options with Orpheus apart from when saying you trust Gale, cue no transformations. (other than that bug near the end of the conversation with Orpheus where for one shot you are ghaik).
Yah that's frigging confusing. So you have to have these party members with you to do this ending?
@@NeoIsrafil Definitely Lae'zel and Gale, the third can be whomever you want, but at this point if you are going for this ending using Gale's orb, then the game is pretty much over as you can stealth through/around the courtyard and beyond with a little help from jump/flying and a greater invis potion, as long as one person makes it to the stem, the cut-scene then will yoink everyone in party to that scene and then tell Gale to use the orb and enjoy the fireworks and end cut-scenes.
I was wondering why you were suddenly ghaik in that one shot.
@@SirUlrichVLWhat happens when you follow this route but instead of letting Gale use the orb, could we just climb as a team and face the NB? Or is that option missing once this route is used?
@@cOMM4ND3R Well if you get to the brain stem and tell Gale he can use the orb, it then just goes into a cut-scene of him transporting you and the others away and then climbing. I don't know what would happen if you picked another option, I imagine either the nether brain transforms us and get a fail game game over or maybe Orpheus either transforms himself or us.
The Emperor lacks everything paarthurnax has.
I know Orpheus says his honor guard would have freed him but they had no means to break the chains. So even if we had surrendered to his honor guard, he'd still be stuck.
Especially since even with the hammer, they wither wouldn't be able to use it, or would suddenly not use it. Even still, if there is no reason for people to die, why whine and complain about being "granted death" when it would have been a utter wasteful one that only serves to help his enemies and the Netherbrain. A prince is so shortsighted and easy to anger over overly loyal pets, is not one who will likely make a great leader once he is in charge. While he is better than the queen in charge, he seems just as arrogant and insufferable as her in other ways.
Especially since, just like the emperor, he just gives you the only ultimatum, and instead of saving his people, he would doom himself. While a noble sacrifice, it is an unneeded one that literally no one considers for some stupid unbeknownst reason.
@@bibby659 I managed to convince him to stay alive after becoming a mind flayer, but was very confused when I didn't get the option to tell him to help his own people with this more powerful form instead of just hiding away somewhere in the Astral plane like a coward. Hell, if he thought him being a mind flayer would be bad PR he could use his powers to just go around and eradicate any mind flayers hiding away in the universe.
@@boianko There is a dialogue option where you convince him, however you have to understand that y'know, if your long lost prince is gone for eons and suddenly comes back as a member of another SPECIES, in particular the species the enslaved you and your sworn enemy, known for controlling people's minds.... that's a hard sell.
This is actually how I did my first playthrough. I was a Githyanki monk romancing Laezel and I didn’t want me, Laezel, or Orpheus to die/become a mindflayer. Me and Laezel flew off to destroy Vlaakith
I love how Lae'zel can't say Ghaik without doing a disgusted expression and head movement
So I think in the scene where you appear as mind flayer it’s more of a symbolic thing of what Orpheus sees of the future, he’s envisioning you as the only mind flayer that he would ever call a hero/comrade. It could also just be a visual glitch lol but it does feel more intended.
Lol, it's definitely a glitch. The option to have Gale sacrifice himself without anyone turning into a mind flayer isn't available unless you go through all these loopholes to get it.
@@AimForMyHead81It's not really a loophole. It seems like an half-finished ending. Some dialogue options are there, others are not. They really should make it more explicit.
@fumoblitzkrie They've updated and patched this game multiple times, and it's still full of unfinished content and glitches. Larian did a great job with Baldur's Gate 3 but numerous issues still remain unfixed, even after all this time.
@@AimForMyHead81 I don't understand why with Gale blowing himself there still needs to be one mindflayer... It just doesn't make sense.
Damn, I never knew how intense the debate between Karlach and Lae'zel at the end of the battle. I always assume that one of the party just convince you to not be an Illithid, and that's it.
orpheus didn't consider that the party don't want to die and want to save themselves from being a mind flayer. that's dumb of him. if he had offered to save them they would've helped him sooner
He assumes the party all have the typical Githyanki mentality and warrior ethos. Big mistake.
These people aren't raised from birth to fear and hate mind-flayers and to sacrifice everything to stop them.
@@SidheKnight Yeah, even if in the end I helped Orpheus and sacrificed Gale, I can understand if someone doesn't care about the giths. I mean, you don't just CASUALLY end up with Vlaakith as a queen.
Did my first complete play through and I was NOT okay losing Gale like that. On my second play through I’m NOT recruiting Lae’zel so I won’t feel guilty of turning Orpheus into a ghaik so we can all live.
Don't worry: Orpheus turning into a Mind Flayer and dying after the fight is the best ending for her. She takes her place and is a more effective leader than him. She is even bringing truce between the Githyanki (Lawful Evil) and the Githzerai (Neutral Good) to fight Vlaakith. She will unite the Gith race once again.
@@NataliaNeeSamaThat also happens if the emperor swallows Orpheus and you convince her to trust you with the DC30 check, she was pretty happy with me in the epilogue even though she told me to go fuck myself 6 months earlier. Was funny though
@@NataliaNeeSamaShe does that if he’s alive too.
The Emporer is blind to the fact that hes part of the grand design. Spurning him is the good way to go.
Plus the asshole killed the dragon that initially saved him.
Best option is to have a friend’s custom character join you and become illithid. This way, everyone lives. Have wyll go with karlach to avernus, and convince a romanced laezel to stay with you. Change my mind. 🤝🏼
Maybe we could have turned one of those revenants that Withers is puppeting.
wait this is brilliant
I didn't know about the orb option. It's clearly the best solution which also makes Gale a true hero that will be remembered for ages. Given they all know there's an after life of some sort, it's an easy option to pick.
Withers confirms and playing as Gale confirms if you use this option his soul is destroyed so no afterlife for him if he uses the orb.
I never ever trust the Emperor after his disguise as our guardian, couldn't shave off this lie
Thank you for this. Spent quite a while trying to finagle this outcome and this was indispensable!
Thanks for posting this. Now I have a reason not to cut Gale’s arm off at the beginning of every play through.
Oh shit this is great to know, thanks! I was considering having Gale use the orb anyway, had no idea you could avoid transformation if he's in party too!
Its funny that the Emperor is such a control freak that if things dont go his way even slightly, he tosses all his work and effort to the side and just calls it quits... what even then was the purpose of all his sacrifices. Why kill all his friends, family, and life long companions... only to end up giving himself over to the thing he spent forever trying to destroy.
My guy kept insisting that being an illithid and assimilating Orpheus's power was and is the only way to fight the netherbrain... but refused to elaborate on any other path. If anything, he seemed to have been the only one so deadset on making sure there is only limited options. The Netherbrain was built up by him as something that can predict every move in a matter of seconds no matter how many possibilities. But, maybe, thats only because he was the one only giving himself limited choices to work with from the beginning.
Its his own fault for what happens to him, and honestly, its for the best that he dies a true death that time, and forever. For all the people he's hurt in his narrow minded ambition, for the friends he betrayed along the way. For the friends he minipulated along the way, and the one he killed because they simply wanted him to keep his soul. There is no greater a disgrace than he.
Even still, its still very annoying and kind of stupid there isnt or doesn't seem to really be many options here to say no one needs to be an illithid to do all this... honestly its pretty annoying, less there is a way and its just super complicated to make work. Because I really dont see how an illithid is needed for the Netherstones to work when we can use them even after stabbing whoever it is that was using them before. Its just kind of annoying st the lack of alternatives here, even when you have the possibility of making everyone live, and yet, no one seems to bother considering it a possibility.
Yeah, I was a bit confused by this as well. The netherstones seemed to work just fine in controlling the crown when split between 3 people, and you're travelling with 3 other high power allies that could do it. The game kind of implied the Elder Brain was somehow not under the full control of the netherstones throughout the story, but it contradicts itself when we clearly see it following orders that are of little benefit to it. Maybe it evolving into a Netherbrain makes the stones not work anymore if wielded by a being that isn't psychically powerful enough to wield them?
The Elderbrain could be controlled by the stones (barely. With the exception of being able to subtly plant dreams etc), but once it evolved into the Netherbrain, it was harder.
So, the emperor just... Leaves? What an idiot lol
Thanks for sharing this. The path here is honestly counter-intuitive. Why did they write it so that the only result where no one has to transform starts by inquiring about yourself becoming a mindflayer, and ends with you saying you're willing to become one?
I think it's not supported to happen.
@dzikdziki2983
Most definently not supposed to happen like this.
Like obviously the goal is to have you make a difficult choice on who does the sacrifice
@@teoteo6185 well. GALE??? Gale does sacrefice so why the fuck on top of that there needs to be mindflayer?
"No good choice" endings are becoming cliche at this point , most of the time they are forced and dont make sense.
karlach is so sweetheart always believes in you no matter what you decide to do and is also ready to sacrifice herself for save her's friend's and the world. She is a pure soul for sure and she deserves all the good things.
tbf le'zel I took the orphic hammer more as an opportunity to loot a sick demon vault, have sex with a demon, and then slay said demon. the hammer was the journey
I wish there was a way to free Orpheus without the Emperor turning on you.
Ngl, the writing in this game is amazing, but it feels out of character for the Emperor to join the Netherbrain if you choose to free Orpheus imo.
He's been fighting for his freedom against the Netherbrain this whole time, it doesn't make sense for him to sacrifice his freedom just because you disagree with his plan... if anything he should just fight you there & then for the stones so he can carry out the plan on his own.
As powerful as he is for a mind flayer, he's also not stupid. He's watched you kill avatars of gods and dragons and what not, he knows damn well he has NO shot at beating you let alone your whole party. He'd be better off just removing his protection of you and attempting to kill you while you're still weak from the change.
All in all though as much as it feels bad, they did make a fantastic ending sequence where you can't really get a "BEST ENDING", it's more of a choose which double-edged sword you'd like to swing.
Because he knows that freeing Orpheus means all mindflayers will die. His whole sthick is to manipulate his way into power any way he can
I agree :(
@@nonaG123The prince becoming illithid is technically the best ending because its poetical , while Lazel and others continue his will. However the emperors decision in the end leads to a really awkward situation. You basically let the only solution you have go away without any persuasion attempts. There s nothing to summarize either because non of the relationship choices matter. That way druid grove chapter has more variability than the actual finale in comparison. The outcome feels rushed and i think there is still plenty of QOL changes coming im regards to story , specifically chapter 3.
@@nonaG123 If he had any morals he would just kill himself. Joining the nethebrain is akin to suicide but worse.
So he either has no morals or is just a badly written moment.
Thank you very much for sharing, this is the best ending in my opinion, unfortunately I couldn't do it in my first run, now I realize it was because I didn't have laezel with me, unfortunately she died in act 2, in the meeting with vlakitth things went wrong control.
**SOME ADDITIONAL BACKGROUND AND FAQS**
Hello! I’ve seen a lot of similar comments pertaining to a couple different aspects of the clip since I initially uploaded the video, so I thought I’d answer them here for better visibility.
1.) How do you have so much health?
This clip was captured with Explorer Mode active, which doubles your health. My character is also wearing the Amulet of Greater Health from the House of Hope which sets your CON score to 23. He also has the permanent buff Tharchiate Vigor for the extra 20 temporary HP.
2.) Why did you turn into a Mind Flayer for a second?
I have no idea. It was a startling bug the first time I had seen it, but upon completion of the rest of the finale, the game recognized that no one had transformed, and Gale was a hero.
3.) Were any mods used?
None whatsoever. This was captured after Patch 4 on PS5, so mods are not an option.
I have not played this scenario again since Patch 5 and the new Epilogue was added, but based on what I’ve read Lae’Zel’s story ends the exact same way, if she returns to her people, whether Orpheus is transformed or not. If you want a non-illusionary Gale to be at your party, however, you cannot play through this scene as shown, and someone has to transform. Just let Orpheus do it. Lol
I know #2 is probably just a bug, but I'm choosing to see it as a moment of artistic poetry. As if Orpheus already sees your destiny as a mind flayer when he kneels to you and speaks of how you will be hailed as a hero, not something that is literally happening in the moment.
Karlach is an angel and I love her. I wanna save her sooo bad. Let us fix her Larian.
We will probably have to do it through mods... Larian is determined to not finish their game, and just to spend all their time "fixing" bugs that give the players advantages they "shouldn't have". Gotta love it ....
I actually like her ending my Tav + Wyll + Karlach on top of their abilities go to avernus to kick some ass :) nothing wrong with it. Poor little Zariel
keep in mind demons always fight each other for power so they the party can find and build some new alliances to overthrow (or negotiate) Zariel at some point. I don't think that Karlach is that important for Zariel to risk everything. (for dnd nerds I checked Zariel starts it's definitely doable after few level ups in Avernus😁 )
@@j1n2my vengeance paladin illithid with Blood of Lathander, berserker barbarian Karlach with returning trident and blade warlock Wyll are kicking devil's butts in Avernus!
New patch gives you a glimpse to her good ending :)
@@j1n2Devils are not demons.
Sure looked like someone transformed.
I can only see the Emperor as a manipulative villain. I didn’t want my character to become a mind flayer and he kept pushing it.
Once I freed orpheus and he asked me to he basically scolded me and said “fine, I may be the destined savior of my entire race but I’ll be the one to do it. You baby.”
The Emperor is the epitome of that abusive asshole that goes "look what you made me do".
I got Orpheus to change and lived happily ever after with Kar’lach in hell.
Omeluum ending when Larian...
It doesnt make any sense why the emporer doesnt wait to see if your plan works before rejoining the elder brain
Cant you have omeluum here if he stayed alive?
If you use the orb in Act 2, then everyone else becomes a mind flayer who had a tadpole. If you destroy the brain with the crown, you also order the brain to destroy the tadpoles. So if you use the orb this way, do you get a good ending, or do the tadpoles stay around and turn everyone along the coast?
Gale’s sacrifice ending in Act 3 plays out with everyone’s tadpole being destroyed, and the scenes on the docks play out like normal, with everyone acknowledging Gale as the savior of the Sword Coast.
The difference between acts 2 and 3 is that we are making the brain have the tadpoles stop everything / go into forced stasis before we blow up. In act 2 if we blow up there is no such restriction to keep the brain worms from completing their natural life cycle.
In the end battle in act 3, everyone that had a parasite (and is not protected by Orpheus) is already transformed.
My friend is romancing Gale with every intention of letting him sacrifice himself in act three
@@Denkenobi Weird that if you destroy the Absolute in Act 2, the mind flayers take over the coast, then. So do your party's worms die if Gale sacrifices?
13:17 Wait, when did Tav become an illithid?
Just a visual bug- I suspect it came from Patch 4, as it was only a few days old at the time of capture.
the emperor siding with the netherrealm after all that the party has been through fely a little forced, even if it sees failure as a possible outcome, he can side with the brain at the end, idk it made me hate the character
MK1 on the mind I see
@@LolchaiProductions ha ha ha I didn't realized hahaha
His whole philosophy is survival and he's basically afraid orpheus will kill him for stealing his power and being illithid, whether before or after the nether brain. Hes escaped the brain 2 times already so it makes sense that it may be his best chance of survival
@@lokiserpentem8534 you got a point there, I must admit. Still when it happened I just felt betrayed. After everything we went through, he could have some faith in us. Either way I guess this shows the great job Larian did.
@FernandoCuadro At the end of the day the Emperor was a truly horrible and evil character. He lies, manipulates and gaslights you the whole way, and when you learn the truth of what he did to Stelmane and his implied threats that he could do the same to you if you reject his advances... Fucking yikes.
You know. When I have a character with just below 300HP my first thought is also "I should probably just grab 20 more temp HP"
This looks like a graphical bug or something more than “no one getting transformed”. It’s actually the path I took in my last playthrough where I got the ceremorphisis achievement because I transformed myself. It looked like you transformed in the final piece of the cut scene but somehow or another weren’t in game. Weird
The emperor tries so hard to convince you that Orpheus will kill you, when in reality the only one Orpheus would probably kill is the emperor
Exactly. His own guilty conscious and fear is the only reason.
I kinda felt like they ddint make the emperors end thorough enough, every time you fight an important character, (or youre about to) theres countless oppurtunities to avoid the fight beforehand right up to the point before it happens.
I feel like there should have been a dialogue or something before you fight The Emperor and try to get him to help you again or something.
Come on Balduran, look around you, look at your city, is this what you truly want? Maybe even convincing him back would've been crucial to ending the brain, as Balduran and Orph kill it together with Tav.
Anyway to save all companions and have Karlach go back to avernus with Wyll and have no one turn into mindflayer along with fyling off with Laezel?
Before I start my lengthy rant: If you even so much as consider letting Karlach turn into a Mind Flayer, you too have no soul. No way I'd let that happen to the best devil-mama in all the Realms!!!
"You leave me no option but to join the Netherbrain"
I've said it before and I'll say it again: This is such horseshit. How was him joining the Brain even *ever* on the table? According to his own words, the Emperor wanted "freedom" - and it doesn't matter if it's his personal freedom or that of the people of Faerun. In joining the Netherbrain, he basically undoes everything that's been accomplished by him and the party and starts to work against his own former wishes and aims.
Plus the one thing he won't be getting out of this is freedom.
What's the new goal he's pursuing with this? He won't be able to dominate the brain, because he doesn't have the stones or Orpheus' protection and once he leaves the prism, he'll be enthralled. So, best case scenario here would be to help defeat the party and to ensure the Brain taking over the city and probably the entire Swordcoast. And in doing so he would simply be reduced to just another mindless drone in the service of the Brain.
Even him staying behind in the prism and ignoring the entire final battle would make *more* sense on a story-level (IMO) than him suddenly doing a 180 and deciding to switch sides. Heck, he could just attack the party right there to try and grab the stones - and/or attempt to absorb Orpheus against the wishes of the party. Anything but *this*.
I understand why this has to happen at this point in the story: This is meant to be a point where some sort of bitter sacrifice has to be made - a moment that has lasting consequences beyond the game's ending. I just wish they could've come up with a different explanation why the Emperor feels his only option is one that doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
Personally, I couldn't give a crap about Lae'zel's people and their problems, so I didn't have any problems letting Orpheus die or to turn him into a Mind Flayer. The Gith seem way too arrogant and narrow-minded WRT the people of Faerun - they're basically only focused on their own problems. That's why I find it hilarious to hear Lae'zel berate the rest of the party for being "selfish", when everyone in the party are willing to turn into Mind Flayers or sacrifice themselves to save the day. While all *she* can think about is herself and her people whom she wants to liberate from her tyrannical queen's rule.
BTW: Having the Emperor switch sides makes the final fight a bit harder, but not impossibly so. I did this on my first Tactician run but I struggled more with the final-final bit of the battle that comes after you defeat the Emperor.
Just have whoever became ilithid spam black hole near the dragon to group half the enemies and spam cast AOE spells, works fine to me, especialy with a storm cleric on haste/speed pot and create water spell
while giving everyone fire resist pots
On the Emperor switchign side, yeah looked very out of chracter considering he sign his own demise regardless, unless he consider his freedom and free will to be lesser than his life, beign a brain dead puppet or dead isn't really different
Letting Karlach transform is the logical choice. She's doomed anyway. Either she commits suicide post battle or she's forced to live in hell for the rest of her life while being chased by her former slavemaster.
At least this way she gets to choose to die doing something heroic.
Still, not being able to fix her is bullshit. Act 3 is full of reinforced infernal iron from the Steel Watchers. They should have served to permanently fix her engine.
This is honestly where the game lost me in all honesty. The fact that the emperor whines and cries about not trusting him and then goes to join the elder brain out of fucking spite to fight you. What a load of bullshit man and you have nearly no say in it either, despite all you've done and accomplished they make it you HAVE to choose between Orpheus or him. I wish it was different, oh I wish, that you could at least convince him to fight with you at the end despite his frustration in the matter.
The emperor was always using you. There is some dialog that will reveal his former allies were all subdued and mind controlled by him like puppets.
Agreed. It just feels like a HUGE slap in the face to the people who refused to eat a tadpole, become half illithid, and want to give Lae'zel an actual good leader to follow. In video games as well as D&D you do require just enough railroading in order to move the story along but this is too much. We should've been able to stop the big brain without sacrificing Gale, without siding with a Mindflayer, or making anyone transform!
@@KollbjornYT"We should be able to win everything without any sacrifices or losses!"
@@liamwhite3522 Now you get it!
@@liamwhite3522with high enough stats, good rolls and proper planning you can always achieve this sort of ending in D&D and in life. The game doesn't allow you to because Larian doesn't know how to DM. Time, brainpower, hard work,are all sacrifices of their own sorts too. Can you achieve with no sacrifice? Probably not, but even if you get a perfectly happy ending you still had to plan THAT well, and set things up that perfectly, and spend all those hours prepping for your win. It's a mistake to think that the only kind of sacrifice that exists in trying to reach your goals is the kind that makes you suffer, sometimes the sacrifice is one of removing simplicity.
this seems to be bugged? at the end, tav is briefly shown to be illithid and orpheus implies he is one but the not
Orpheus: My honor guard would have freed me, and I would have stopped the Elder Brain before it turned into a Netherbrain.
*checks Orpheus stats*
*Checks Orin and Gortash Encounters*
*hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm*
I always find it strange that The Emperor has gone through all this trouble to then just all of a sudden switch sides....so easily....
I always felt like there should have been a way to persuade Gale to become the Mind Flayer. That way, he can use the orb, destroy the absolute, and live.
I just started my second playthrough and realised the emperor is the bastard who infected us all in the first place. I felt so betrayed coz I thought he was sincere lol.
I'm definitely going to free Orpheus, this time around.
What just happened? Looked like Tav transformed, but then back to normal?
Perhaps a glitch or edited
Some kind of glitch. 🤷🏻♂️
The rest of the ending goes on recognizing that no one transformed.
@@Denkenobiact 3 is Bethesda games levels of buggyness but I love this game
Do you know I’ve sunk quite a bit of time into this game and I’m still only on act three. However, I don’t think I can finish this game because quite frankly this is one of the most depressing endings of any video game I’ve ever played.
There are no happy endings
Karlach is quite happy to become illithid, for one reason : it shut down her engine permanently
She become a saviour and live to tell the tale although she aknowledge she's a tentacle monster (jokingly)
Yah, it's cyberpunk all over again. It's like this generation of writers have collectively decided that if you can get an actually happy ending it's too cheesy or unrealistic because life is pain and suffering so they write in pain and suffering forgetting that that's what we play to ESCAPE.
@@Alpha1598753 There are two problems with Karlach's situation: 1. Her Act 3 quest that was meant to be a continuation of fixing her heart got removed when the Upper City district wasn't added in the launch version of the game, so what we end up with is a variation of her 'bad ending'.
2. Ceremorphosis, although physically excruciating, imposes feelings of ecstasy, contentment and elation on the future/transformed victim. This was portrayed back in early access in the form of Daisy, a conjuration by the tadpole tempting you to give in. But with that also cut and not much additional info, it's easy to mistake Karlach's eagerness to transform and happiness afterward as real.
It's mostly the case of number 1, so hopefully the devs would include her complete quest and Omeluum in a future patch, and everyone can live happily ever after.
That's precisely how I feel lol
My ending was pretty happy. Lae'zel stuck around Faerun, Astarion is in the Underdark somewhere leading a bunch of spawn, Karlach and Wyll busting demons in Avernus(so she actually had a friend and Wyll gets to stay the Blade), Gale gets his crown Minsc survives along with Jaheira, and Shadowheart is my bae and has her parents. And the world isn't destroyed.
Hopefully we get a mod where we can free orpheus in earlier and have him join us from act2 onward
I’ll admit the emperor gaslit and totally won me over the first time but I wanted to see how it’d be if my dark urge never fully trusts him and he so quickly shows his true character, my gith durge is going to love shittjng on him
I love how between You and Karlach are asking about how to delicate the situation, lae’zael is the only one who first tells you to be Selfless then process to tell you to be selfish to see save her people.
Its a shame that the weakest plot point happens right in the ending... Like, you dont know if this is just unfinished or they really wanted to make a point that the Emperor DGAF the whole time.
This is great for honor mode since you can basically skip all the big final fights
At 13:13 there’s a scene bug.
Because this whole thing is a glitch. He's supposed to demand one of you transforms (or himself) as an insurance policy to Gale's orb.
Actually Gale loses his soul. The explosion so massive, his soul is destroyed and he can't be revived
I didn’t even talk to the emperor at all and ran straight to Orpheus to bust him free. Had Orpheus change. Good ending for all
I enjoyed every occasion in the game when I did something emperor did not want/expect just to make him feel uneasy 😅 it was fun.
Emperor was with Absolute from the beginning, it was a Great Plan to free Absolute. This video shows it.
This is nope. Just nope…. No matter if romanced or not, i never let Gale die. I like him too much, so i can’t do it ❤
I rather sacrifice Orpheus, than any companion. I mean, he’s some NPC you just met n the end. Your companions ate those who go through everything with you, and you help them through all,their problems. They are your friends or even partners if romanced
Does the emperor ending not demand someone become a Mindflayer, too?
But how can I open the portal in the crown since no one turns into a mind flayer?
The Emperor is a classic abuser. He demands trust, but lies to you constantly (and then straight claims he never has lied to you). He takes the slightest deviation from his plans as an outright betrayal, and then he leaves without giving you a chance to defend your position.
Ugh I can't deal with Orpheus. He's fodder every run for me lol. I love how many details and options there are in this game. It's a freaking masterpiece
still makes no since that the "emporer" takes off like that
What a baby gets mad that you won't work with him so switches sides
Ahhhhh, now I understand what I did wrong in my resisting Dark Urge playthrough: I forgot to bring Lae'zel.
Still works in patch 7, For me best ending. Gale gets his redemption. Everybody keeps their souls, including Gale cause he blows himself up, and all Illithids are dead.
you have to turn to a mind flayer in the last battle though
Eh, this is basically choosing one of the bad endings to avoid transforming Orpheus into a Ghaik. Not something I'd ever do.
I made Orpheus turn, romanced Lazeal and went on a war campaign against the Queen as a high vampire, karlach died though 😢, but it was a great ending!
I’m so annoyed. My game glitched and I even tried going back to an earlier save but every time I got to this conversation I couldn’t get my companions to jump down to this platform, so I was just there by myself. I wanted to see their reactions and inputs
Orpheus would kill the Emperor on the spot.
Why is your character shown as Mind Flayer during the last bit of speech with the Gith Prince, just to revert back to your human character model?
Imagine being so dumb to think that betraying the Emperor is the right choice since he is the one that makes 90% of the work and saved us many times,only ingrateful bastards would disagree. also the game is about freeing from masters's shackes so Layzel jumping from one god to another would be a bad move, she leading the resistance against Vlakiit is the most Canon ending. If they never make a way to make peace between Orpheus and Emperor the decision is Cristal Clear.
Is this some new addition of the patch 4? Because I followed the same pass but Orpheus just says he doesn't trust Gale and transforms.
You have to agree to become a mindflayer with the emperor first and take his tadpole. Then reject the emperor. Only then can you convince Orpheus not to turn you then and there.
@@ianchapman6254 so, is it new addition? Because I've tried it before.
@@ianchapman6254 When does the Emperor says that to me?
@@zeny5159 It's LITREALLY IN THIS VIDEO.... wtf
@@honestbenny Jesus Christ. No need to answer angryly. It has been two months. I though you would need to do something before this final cutscene