I am an ordained music minister/choir director/worship leader with 40 yrs of part-time experience, a ministry to which I definitely feel called by God to do. I’m 67, still playing guitars and keyboards, acoustic, electric and digital, and am blessed with a still youthful singing voice. Since I’m now recently “retired”, I spend 30-35 hours a week on my “part-time” job. For most of my life, though, I have had a 40-hr a week job along with my church job. Why? Why didn’t I just get a full- time ministry position? It’s because of the quiet disrespect that is always a part of being any paid staffer who is in a creative position. Why so strong a comment? Creative, artistic people are often disrespected and devalued by those who have no such abilities. The thinking is these abilities are something that we should just give away because “it’s a free GIFT from God, so shouldn’t you just use it for free? Why should you get paid for it?” No matter that we have worked hard and strived to turn our five talents into ten. Or our two into ten, for that matter. Believe me, it’s way better than it used to be, especially for songwriters, arrangers, and musicians, but the devaluation of the arts continues. Thank you both for an interesting discussion and an informative, helpful YT channel!
🎤 I honestly think that everyone looks at this from the Rwrong perspectiveright off the top I have been playing for churches for years so I got paid so I didn’t get paid and some we find creative ways to get paid because when we are paid we’re able to focus more on the spiritual portion of what we do musically and we’re not doing a 40 hour week job it takes us away from being in the church and being a part of the whole concept of praise and worship and Ministry. Should we get paid we sure should a doctor will go off and go to school and do so many years just to be a doctor Lora will do the same thing teachers of every sort will do the same thing and at the end of the day if these people become a part of your church do you ask them to work for free I don’t think so. No as far as I know about hierarchy being a musician in the church a lot of people have said that Drummer‘s get paid the least sometimes that’s true most people don’t understand that being a keyboard player is nothing but being a glorified Drummer I believe the same rate of pay normally works I don’t believe just because you play piano or organ you should get paid more than the Bass Player or the Drummer or the Singer‘s. I think when you’re trying to mix any type of common sense with what you should do spiritually we try to play that game where it’s the clouded area there’s no clouds here nothing but God if God can feed the birds and all the beast and animals across the Earth how much should he do for you or you do for others. The best praise and worship band I’ve ever played in was in a Pentecostal church we all knew what we got paid we all knew what was expected of us and we came and then we did the work with those musicians that have given their lives to Christ and they understand what real ministry is all about where do you stand
This is a great video. I've been a working church musician since I was 12 years old and received $30 per month as a salary. I've played for churches that paid musicians and I have played for those that didn't. Over 40 years I've seen this debate go back and forth and I will say this - if the musician is a blessing to the church then the church should be a blessing to the musician. In college, I worked full-time as a TSA, 20 hours in the engineering lab, and played for 3 different churches in 3 different cities to get through college (I was an electrical engineering major with a whole load of classes simultaneously). I was so exhausted that I fell asleep in the middle of the day while driving and totaled my car. I'm blessed to be alive. A friend of mine that played for the college choir told me about a church that needed a musician. I reached out to them. I was interviewed and after the interview they hired me. That church paid me $200 a week to be the church musician and to work with 5 different choirs but that was enough money for me to get another car, get married to the love of my life, and graduate with my engineering degree. When the church as a whole starts to look at the roles they have that they can compensate I think they should. You don't know what that can do for a musician and his family. Biblically, I think in Number 18, it talks about how all the offerings were taken to take care of the temple. That included an offering for the Levites - the musicians. I could be wrong on that but I do believe it is right to take care of your musicians financially. Thanks for this video.
When I was hired to play Vs volunteering to play I saw difference in how much I was appreciated because the ones that hired me they valued who I was as a musician but the ones that I volunteered to play for them treated me like crap. Ive seen this a lot in the church coming up volunteer musicians are unappreciated.
In a world of sin, the answer to "should?" will be imperfect. In a perfect (unselfish) world, the musician would be willing to play for free, and the church, out of sheer gratitude would pay him.
I play drums for my church from the age of 12 - 32 for both Youth, Sunday morning services, Sunday night service along with every revival service. Never got paid or expected I did it for the Lord, and it was my greatest worship. We had several talented musicians who all gave of their extraordinary talents because they loved the Lord. These guys were country or rock bands saved by God’s Grace, and now are music evangelists. Theses guys help develop our youth band which had to be the best by far in our district. None of these “Real Professionals” were ever paid, they did it for the Lord. I did receive gifts from time to time by different ministries of the church, and at all one point I was asked to come play for a church and they would pay my gas. The only real problem was the fact that it would be a 2 hour drive for all practices and services. That would be a lot of time away from my family after I just got married, and moving there wasn’t really an option. I don’t expect the church to pay that is me personally. Sometimes it’s just not in the means for the church to pay them, no matter the quality of the musician.
Brother! You hit the nail on the head! I played for a church for years and never got paid, but I love God! Even when a new pastor took over and started paying me, God moved on me to leave and play for another church, who didn't pay me, but now I pastor and God had blessed 🙏 so many people will miss there blessings for more money! Love your comment ❤️
You have really spoken well tho bro and God bless for your sacrifice. But I think that something is still left unsaid. What you did was actually a personal sacrifice but should it be the norm and use as standards for treating other church musician ? Yes we can encourage ourselves in the Lord but should not ignore the welfare of the church musicians. The question first seek to solve the misconception about musician being get paid. So if some of the church doesn’t have the means fine, God knows and it is different case. The Pastor in the church where I was playing for made me understood it was their responsibility to take care of me but the church then was not in good financial state. What hurts is that some church don’t consider how these musicians survive and yet need their services anytime. Some actually spent time and money and invested into becoming the said musician who live on their talent professionally but they tell them they should do that for God. The question is who were the levites ? How were they handled? They were handled as the Priests , so if the Priest is been paid and is telling you, yours must be free!, is that not selfishness? That is not love!! Plans must be taken to take care of church musicians who sacrifice to be there for the church with their resources... my opinion though ❤😇much love from Ghana
@@sampsonaborah1190well said my brother. I agree with you and I agree with the original post to an extent as well. There has to be a middle ground. I’m from South Africa, Cape Town and this is a back and forth battle within the church. If I ever become a Pastor someday I will invest into my musicians. Maybe we can’t pay them immediately but we can take young talent and pay for music lessons and invest that way. Train them up professionally and have them pay you back by training up other youth and repeat the cycle. That way, if a musician feels like it’s time for him to leave, he can, because there will be someone suitable to replace him if what we are offering is not sufficient for him.
As a recording studio engineer/owner I have only been involved with Gospel and Contemporary christian music. I do have a real problem with churches who expect their musicians to do "freebies" on a regular basis. All of the musicians would be in their rights to organize and join a sacred music musicians union that protects the rights of their members.
I don't play for churches, music is my job I do for a living. In church I serve but I don't do music. Not because I wouldn't, but the church has an issue with this exact topic. So I would rather clean or usher at church,and do music at work where my gifts are appreciated and I am compensated
Man, love this video. I've been playing with my church for over 5 years. I've seen fill in musicians 150 + for a service. I've never gotten that. I'm their lead guitarist. I play 3 services ,every week. My pastor pulled me aside and started given me 50 dollars in gift cards. But I only see that once every other month. Yet ,once again fill in musicians gets paid. Now ,it's not about the money, but my days( Fri,Sat) off,is learning and practicing the set list. Then play Saturday night service,and two on Sunday. Different set lists. It's work. Well ,just resently I've got a little upset at them, cause they expect me to lose hrs at work,just so that I make it to practice on Thursdays. I work 12 to 15 hr a day, Monday -Thursdays. My days off are invested in the church. Ive never ask them to get paid before. But I do have a meeting with them ,this Fri. And me and my family could use the extra income. On one hand I feel bad,because I'm doing for the lord, but on the other hand, their paying others. I do love my church and now ,alls I could do is pray about this. If you all could keep me in prayer as well ,I'd be very grateful. Once again, you guys nailed ,everything that I've been dealing with ,as a musician. Thank you guys .. Godbless
@Love1010P well.... lol. They basically told me that it's not in their Budget right now. That sunday after the meeting ,pastordid blessme with 150 and 100 worth of gift cards. Now , I get 100 ( here or their) but not all the time. I never know when it come. But God's timing is Impeccable. And they bless me with gift cards as well...like for gas and Groceries. Did get a pretty big raise at work, and they cut my hrs down. Kinda like a double raise. So, God is good! It all workers out . God's will be done..
Karen here. Take up a quarterly collection. Churches have no problem doing that for guest speakers. Musicians buy their own equipment that breaks down. Give them a Christmas check. Food baskets. Etc. Show SOME appreciation. Many have families who give up time for musicians to practice at home and at church. Then play on Sunday and holidays and extra meetings. They also spend more time with Jesus and Holy Spirit, who gives songs and fills them up so worship brings and reveals His presence. It also stands to reason they stay around longer than leaders or Pastors, who move on or split churches, and go off on tangents.
This is about volunteers that have returned the following weeks. Sometimes it may feel disrespectful if the church has the wrong approach with, "we should surely do something, we can't just not give them anything" Then the leadership procedes to give them a food basket or a little gas money, nothing might be better than that. Let them have their giving moment of service to the church & speak to them later about trying to be paid for their full value. That could be the last food gift basket they want to ever see from a church. The leadership should obviously strongly pray about what to do with every situation.
GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF SAID DON'T STRENGTHENING THE HAND OF THE EVIL DOER ALL THAT DO SO IT'S A SIN. GOD GIVETH AND GOD TAKES IT AWAY ALL GIFTS AND TALENTS GIVEN BY HIS PERMISSION. KEEP BABBLING WITH Y'ALL WORTHLESS OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS ARE NOT LIKE GOD SO WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? I KNOW THAT YA'LL ARE LESS THAN NOTHING. GO LISTEN TO MY APOSTLE PASTOR GINO JENNINGS A TRUE MAN SENT BY GOD PREACHING ON SHOULD MUSICIANS GET PAID.
I am the lead musician for my local church and have served for over 40 years in the music ministry. Since then I also serve in other ministries and am also an ordained Evangelist. I am not a salaried musician nor minister of the Word, 1. Because we are a fairly small ministry and 2. It's something I enjoy doing. I am not a "skilled or trained" but Ive learned so much just by being consistent and faithful. However, I've learned much of what I know by ear and my love for worship. One of my concerns for paid musicians exclusively is that many of them are not members of a local church so they consider themselves hired servants and not levitical by calling. Many of them also play other forms of genre of music on the side as gigs so there isn't always a commitment to the service of God.
I have a bachelor’s degree in music. I love the Lord with all of my heart and when I play, it is indeed a service unto my God. The church has to understand that good musicianship is a SKILL that is highly developed and takes years and hours.
I agree, what's happening is churches are bringing ln pimps to play music because they often competing with other churches ,😮music is nice and it helps but if you don't have music just do like the bible says, make a joyful noise psalm 100 ,don't compromise pray that God will bless you with a musician instead of a week end pimp
YES THEY SHOULD!!! Just as you would pay a plumber or a janitor, we’re all working. It also creates accountability that you can’t have with volunteers. Furthermore, churches need to raise funds to operate. Good worship music creates the spiritual experience that parishioners long for and in turn will give more and thus helping the church more. Invest a little into your musicians and get a great return.
Volunteer singer here. Basically full time worship leader and director on and off at the church discretion. The ministry has grown throughout the last 12 years I’ve been part of it and I’ve witnessed people coming on to staff but the worship team until last year that someone was brought in on staff to manage and direct us. Long story short, there were hurt feelings through and through and I keep pushing because I’m doing this for the Lord regardless but there is hurt.
I have always been on the fence with this as I work media and have been told that I wouldn't get paid even though some projects take hours, and sometimes days to complete. I still did the job as if I were getting paid for it.
A worker is worthy of his hire. You dont see many pastors who dont get paid. It takes a great investment in time to become proficient in music. It take money for lessons and expensive instruments. It is right and reasonable that a full time professionals who make their living from their craft shoul be paid. You get whay you pay for. Some people can afford to volunteer because they earn money in another field. They might raise to the level of semiprofessional. There are pastors who could take 1 less vacation, or drive something less then a Cadillac, or live a less luxurious lifestyle. You all have made some good points. I say if a church can afford it, pay the musicians.
Great podcast. Completely agree with your stance on this topic. I'm a keyboard player and co worship leader. Our church is one that can afford to pay only the worship leader at this time. We are a smaller church of only around 100-120 and both me and the other worship leader that split the role after our previous worship leader moved out of state to be with family have both agreed that we were unwilling to take the salary. This was also during the pandemic so funds were tight. To me, I don't mind doing it on a volunteer basis. I have a full time job that pays the bills. Our pastor and youth pastor however are dependent upon it and we much more vital to the core function of the church. I would much rather donate my time and make sure they can provide for their families.
Interesting conversation! Thanks for sharing. I haven’t really made up my mind on the topic... In Germany where I live, paying musicians or even worship leaders is basically not a thing (with only so few exceptions that I probably know half the evangelical church musicians in Germany who ARE getting paid by name). So I’ve never been in the position to ask for payment and have only been paid small sums for a handful of events where I was brought on as a fill in. For my own church, paying musicians is hardly an option since we should raise our pastor’s salary before even thinking about employing other people. I think there are three underlying questions that I feel like I’d need to answer for myself before I can even join the conversation that you are having here (and you actually touch on these a little bit but it seems like you both have clear answers to these). 1) Why would we need better musicians? I could think of several hypothetical answers such as "better musicianship (-> less distraction) -> more anointed worship", "better musicianship -> higher production value -> higher attractiveness for unchurched people" and others. 2) What about paying people who work in other capacities? Do you go by skill needed for the task? Dedication? Trustworthiness? Importance in church meetings? I’m thinking FoH engineers, media creators and more. 3) If we decide that better musicians would be desirable (which I can totally get on board with btw), how do we know how to prioritize making salaries for musicians a reality? With all the other financial needs of a typical church, along with our mission to reach the world for Jesus, this is not a self-answering question. I’d be extremely interested in what both of your opinions on these questions are. If you’ve addressed them at some point in the past and I missed it - sorry bout that. =) If not, maybe that would be an interesting topic for a future podcast? As always I appreciate the thoughtful manner in which you guys talk about central topics of worship ministry! God bless you!
I like the tone in which this conversation was had. I have been part of a worship team for years, I am now one of the worship leaders. I think this topic is situational. Do I think musicians should be paid? Yes I do. But with that comes added responsibility for the musician to uphold the standard of music. Some churches cannot afford to pay, each situation is different. Our church has about 30 members, we're on a roster, how do you pay everyone? Do you select the more experienced persons and leave the latter out? Its a tough conversation to have, but a good one.
People without musical talents have always devalued and taken advantage of those without. Whether it's intentional or not. The quality does need to be held to a standard and it is taken for granted. It takes hard work and time. Why is my hard work and time worth nothing? The quality of the music is important and that is trampled on by insisting on volunteers. Not everyone can do this. It is distracting and frustrating to listen to someone mess up constantly or fail to sing notes correctly. The problem is the community and the attitude towards musicians in the church. Of course we give to the church and volunteer in many other ways. But we deserve respect.
I understand the economics of making the church a business. For me, i have seen many churches fail because of money. You cannot serve both mammon and God.
Real easy answer. Pastors minister thru spoken word. Musicians minister thru spoken word (lyrics) and or with instruments. Look to the Bible, the levite musicians we're paid along with the temple workers and priest (present-day pastors). About 4-5 weeks ago I traveled with a buddy who spoke at my old church. I hadnt played my guitar in awhile but I bought it along. I did a guitar-vocal piece and played two songs with the head elder's daughter. They sent the preacher a check and didn't send me anyting. He spoke today. He asked me earlier this week did I want to come along again and bring my guitar. I asked him was there any pay involved and he said he had nothing to do with it. I said, why don't you ask them for me? When he evaded my question again I said, why don't you give me part of your pay, I am ministering too. Anyway we have to prepare and execute just like they do. Although musicians enhance the services and in some cases have more influence over the spoken word, the majority of pastors and churches don't see it that way. If musicians stop offering free services, this will put a halt to this disrespect and undervaluing..
I have participated in church for many decades. I have been on both sides, being paid and for the enjoyment to God. There are positions i believe should be paid: e.i. directors of music in the church. Why? People, especially in the church congregations, do not realize the amount of work done behind the scenes with a great music program in the church. They manage the program, they must consult with the pastor to coordinate music each week, work with various leads in various programs but usually ends up being that sole director, listening to music arrangements, choir gowns, attending conferences, this director if doing their duties take on a lot of time, not simply rehersal time where no one receives any compensation. I also suggest paying the pianist too. They spend hours practicing for the rehearsal in addition to being on call to accompany soloists or groups, they also must be there unless they are dead so the responsibility is heavier on the pianist/organist.
I'm going to add to my comment. I'm at a place in my life and walk with God that I don't want to be paid. now if it's a position where attendance is required then I might expect a little compensation. I'm one of those musicians who takes pride in his craft and don't need a full rehearsal to rehearsal my own to make sure that I know the music as soon as I walk through that door so that's why I say I can miss a rehearsal but if it is required I would expect some type of compensation
I dont think the issue is SHOULD musicians be paid, the question is CAN a musician be paid. To give balance to the conversation, it depends on the size, scale and scope of ministry. Like any other organization. Some people still argue that churches should not be run like a "corporation," but in order to fairly compensate mysician staff as u outlined, a church has to have a corporate structure. You make a good argument for why churches have to be run like aniy other business. In any corporation as the company does better, they pass the proceeds on to employees in the form of raises, bonuses, stock option etc. As a business loses revenue, it is felt in the staff as well.
I don’t expect to be paid, we are in this for God. However, acknowledgment, appreciation, and an occasional display of love would be so appreciated. By and large, church musicians are under appreciated and taken for granted, and sometimes even mistreated by the leadership. Still we press on for the love of Jesus, and for His body.
Let's take a good look at other professions and skills that take time to develop. Imagine a technician or a bricklayer or a carpenter who is a member of your church, are those guys also going to render their to the church for free? Should a tailor sew robes for free? Should a cinematographer cover services for free? Let's take good look at these. This is exactly why a lot of church musicians leave the church for secular establishments.
I've been a church musician for many years..... I think we mix working and serving God too much. Musicians arent supposed to get paid....and they arent supposed to not get paid. It is up to the church and the musician. The only scripture that needs to be read concerning this is "Do unto others as you would have done unto you," and "Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." That is the extent of the bibles take on paying musician..... I've learned, that playing is a job.....a hard job....and you are working for the people...... Yes do everything as unto the Lord......but playing in the church is just as equally done as unto the Lord as driving a city bus. Yet it is ok and good to volunteer to do either. The only time I play for God....is with I am alone playing with my headphones on......where only He can hear me... and I tell you, He has never judged me for a wrong note pressed, playing the same song too much or not increasing in skill level..... In church we play for the enjoyment of the people......which is also fine and good. Let us not mistake a volunteer musician as being more holy than one who demands paid.... For this is unrelated to true holiness. And let us be careful when we judge that another should not receive compensation that they believe they deserve........for as we judge......we are judged. And God is not mocked.......whatsoever a man soweth....that shall he also reap. If we desire to have what we want.....allow musicians to desire more for themselves without judgement......
I'm a musician, I'm not paid now but I was paid years back when I deputised for someone The pay only made me better and more committed not because the money was much but because I had to live up to the billing How much more a very skilled musician with more or less no other source of livelihood
If you are a guest musician and not a member of the church, YOU SHOULD BE PAID! PERIOD!! I played trumpet for Christmas and Easter at churches for years. I got paid. My own church I had a brass quartet for Christmas, was promised money for all of us, and instead they gave us wine. they embarrassed the hell out of me in from of my fellow music students. I ended up sending them checks as if the church had paid us. I left the church I grew up in because of this. why is there any debate about this? what a joke. I've had big corporations that own senior homes NOT pay me for weeks, for singing and playing on guitar etc., months and not at all when another entity takes over. Attitude and spirit will change real fast when you're not paid . Another time a local Nazarene church and college eccentric choir director a arranged all the music, wrote his own cantata for the Easter service, had 20 people playing at Ester service. After saying we would get paid, we never did. I told him off, since he had a higher education. A doctorate Degree in Music, at a small college, he ought to have more common sense and human civilly and honesty to drag in musicians, doesn't matter if it's a church, bar wedding reception, or if your plumber. hard to collect from corporations.
Sorry to hear that happened to you at your own church. I understand your pain having been on a similar receiving end. Not all churches are like that. There are those that honor the Word of God and value their workers.
I feel church makes this a bit harder than it is. A medium size church should be able to place a certain amount or percent to the ministry. Simply put…say a church has 500 members and we all know that about 20% give tithes and medium income is 50k and the remaining member just give a $30 offering. This will yield about 1,124,000 a year. If the church just allocates 10% to the ministry say 8 (band of 5 and 2 singers 1 sound guy)….it’s about $112,500 a year or $270 a week for each one. I don’t see how this can be a hindrance to the church. I know that the pastors can say…yeah, but I’m concerned about how your spiritual life is by us paying the musician. To which I understand; however, the spiritual life of each one of the members isn’t supposed to be the determining factor of “an excuse” not to pay…it’s a personal matter of the member and God. (Is the church not going to receive a tithe of an non spiritual member?) I know that not every church can pay. And I’ve served without pay…but it should be a work in progress because if it isn’t a work in progress it will never happen. This to me is indicative of a bad management of funds.
I think it depends on the situation. It's not a blanket answer. In most churches, the worship leader is part time, which means the church probably doesn't have a ton of money to start paying 10 or 15 other people.
In music business, the leader/manager would take the payment at the end of the night, and pay each member who performed. Today's church really not much a difference. Worship leader would take the payment, divide it, and pay each member of the band/choir He does get paid a bit more than say the drummer.
Strings, cables, picks and time is not free. There is a cost. If you are giving of your time and you are not getting paid, then I withhold my monetary giving because my time IS NOT FREE. RARELY is it a case where a church of 300+ people do not have the financial ability to pay you. IT IS the case, that they do not value you and the other musicians.
Guys in the Philippines we have volunteer musicians and they do lay really good and they are worshipping God, it’s better to develop a musician with a good amount of skill and see them grow.
I didn’t even know church musicians got paid to be honest. That would be a dream job to me! I tried finding a video like this because I’m curious about it. I’m a church drummer and I play Sunday mornings, Wednesday evenings sometimes, for youth group, and other special events at church of about 500 ppl. On the one hand, I don’t want it to necessarily be about the money because it’s for God initially, but it is a lot of time dedicated to not get paid. Any thoughts?
My church doesn’t pay musicians (but there again, members who do a myriad of other tasks necessary to run a church don’t get paid either). This church is just too small to pay anyone other than a pastor. Having said that, I still believe that our time has value. As a musician/singer, I’ve worked out how many hours it takes on any given week to prepare, rehearse and participate in a Sunday service. I “pay” myself (at the legal minimum wage per hour) by deducting that amount from what I would otherwise give to the church in tithes/offerings. I know that many would disagree with this (if they knew ☺) and I’d respect their right to have that opinion. But honestly I’ve never regretted or questioned myself about taking this approach.
Let's face it, you've got phenomenal musicians that work at Burger King, teach lessons, substitute teach, etc to try & cobble together a living. For a church to request hours of service, without offering so much as a $10 gas card, is exploitative...Also, a musician who says to a church, "I won't play unless I get paid", is being honest. Nothing wrong with that.
As a pianist who didn’t do any planning and was only expected to be an accompanist and I did this for more than a decade and I was not paid and this was a huge church. I think part of it was because I grew up in that church and the other part was the culture of the church. Now, I’m in a small church that reached out to me because they needed a musician - I plan the music, practice with the choir weekly, play the piano and also lead the worship in singing and sing solos. It’s a very small church and they don’t have a lot of money - but they do pay me.
@@MRJOSHmo44 It depends on the size of the church and what they’ve budgeted. Also it depends on how many services they want you to play and whether rehearsals are also required. I’m not charging for rehearsals at this church.
You can dedicate your life to God and doing His service. Unless you have a constant source of food, shelter, health care, and extra income to afford all of your personal expenses, how can you simply say, "you're supposed to do it for God without getting paid." You have a job that allows that. Thats 37.5 hours to b3 sustainable, then at minimum an additional 10 hours driving, plus 10 hours of rehearsals, then performances, not to mention all the time researching music arrangements if your church is that big. And what if you had a family? So with that time commitment should come remuneration
I've been the worship leader/music director at my small Baptist church for 7 years. I haven't been paid a dime, nor do I expect to be paid. I'm not a full-time musician and have a full time job. I'm 28 and have been playing music for 16 years. God has given me the gift of musicianship, so I use it to give back to Him. All of our musicians are members of the church and are volunteers as well. Our pastor is the only position that is paid, and even then, He still has a full-time job. We have on average 70 members present on Sundays. I put out an ad looking for some volunteer musicians and recieved a very angry email basically saying "how dare you not pay musicians!"
I agree about removing the money factor. Although I get paid, I have largely served as a church musician on a voluntary basis. I would serve regardless of being paid or not.
@Mr. B's Music Why should he? He's entitled to the fruits of his labor. He put years, and years, of practice, refining his craft, and developing his skills to be a musician in the ministry. Sounds to me like you don't have much clue as to what it takes and the sacrifices that have to be made.
And the janitor, and the sound guy, and the light tech, and the person who made the design for the current sermon series, and the people who do kids ministry, the lady who brings cake, and... sorry for being a little sarcastic, but I think it’s far from a no brainer. Who do you pay for what? I mean... you know as well as I do that there are many many people outside of the worship team who invest a lot of time and some of whom have developed quite some skill in their ministry. I guess my question is: What would you say are the criteria for who gets paid and who doesn’t? Because I doubt that all volunteers at church can be paid a noteworthy amount for what they do.
It's not always just "I'm only doing this if I'm paid". Sometimes it's a matter of just going somewhere else if you're not paid fairly. Suppose there's a church who you support 95% of their message who doesn't pay vs a church who you only support 80% of their message, but they pay fairly. I don't think it's wrong to chose the paying church. You can still serve God in a church you don't agree with as much. In some ways, limiting yourself to only churches you agree with most is ego-centric, as if we personally are given some special insight into which church serves God better.
The fact that this is even a question baffles my mind. If someone seriously questions whether they should pay me, I walk. For the record, church isn't my thing. But I have on occasion over the years played in church. The talent spectrum is (how can I put this delicately?) ...pretty broad. I've played with people who've worked with Grammy winners or nominees. I've also played with people who had no clue what they were doing. So for me, as someone outside the church and looking in, it's no surprise that this question gets asked. Here's another thing. It's a matter of economics. Smaller churches simply don't have the funds to pay musicians while larger ones have enough attendance to support that. For me, this is my work. This is how I pay the bills. I have demo work that I can present along with my resume and a B/W headshot. I also invite people who are interested in hiring me to come to a gig where I'm working so they can make an informed decision.
Why don't you pay them $20 each? I worked for a worship leader that paid out of pocket to get good musicians. Give your 10% to the musicians on your praise team. The politics of church is one of the reasons I quit playing at church.
I’m glad the Lord led me to your video. 😢Sadly we are going through church woes at my church and I sing on the choir(not a lead) so does the choir members need to be paid also? I’m just finding out that musicians are paid to play in church and it’s so disappointing because if the “money is not right” they act weird. Which I can discern and disrupts me internally. I hate that in church this is an issue.
to add, the rehearsal and performances should be considered your servitude to God with no other expectation of any gratitude unless it comes from God. However being paid for weddings and funerals is common courtesy to the musicians requested. More of a thank you for your services, there is no set fee. Great topic.
That is what made me leave the church I was attending. I started with the church giving all my best, training the choir, playing the bass, piano at some point, shooting videos, doing sound engineer, doing graphic designs. They feel they can't pay for the same thing I am doing but they bring a filling person and pay them heavily. And that is unfair and there is no Love doing that. They don't even give anything at least to show concern. It's also the attitude of some churches that makes some people get to the point of not wanting to play for any church except they are paid
@@WorshipLeaderHangout there no factor at all. It's just an attitude that some so called "Pastors" have developed, and these ones are only concerned about business and not ministry. Specifically, let me give an example, I help with sound engineering every time, but the day I had an event which they already knew and wasn't on a Sunday or rehearsal day. And they wanted to fix sound check on a day I have another event, I run other business which they need to understand that, and they wanted me to leave what was going to pay me and come for what I won't be paid for. I gave them an alternative day that I can do instead of that specific day. There are so many situations but I was patient till when I couldn't take it again. I just realized I was in the wrong church. Not every place is meant for everyone
I do believe musicians should be paid. There is a lot of time and sacrifice involved that I don't think most people even know or understand. I also understand churches not being able to afford to pay musicians. I'm currently not paid. Here's my current issue, if I'm not being paid then you can't try to dictate when I play or how often I play. If I want to sit out a week to worship with my family then I'm able to do that and shouldn't be getting any pushback.
Also a musician should understand the particular ministry they're going to and the membership like a small congregation may not have funds to pay musicians because of bills and mortgages and utilities.
I really appreciate the heart of your points. As well, some of your perspectives help me see through a different lens. I would like to ask, if you believe the musicians should be paid for their service to the church, how do you feel about skilled dgroup leaders who devote time to preparation, or skilled youth and kid workers?
So... I agree that you should take care of the ministers (including techs and musicians) however, I have seen the opposite issue, where in the name of getting the "Best Musicians" some of the members weren't even believers. but they were great musicians. Like everything, there is a balance.
All church musicians should get paid, all church musicians should not be playing for the money. As the young man said, if you do not pay for musicians, you will not have the worship ministry you desire, and God expects. The members pay for music and TV all the time with no spiritual value, but want to have a powerful experience at church without taking care of the musicians. Most of the time, the best musicians have to move on to paid positions so they do not end up in the "fields." I played for $75 per month for 10 years. That did not cover 1/2 of what I spent on equipment. I would not advise anyone to accept that now that I am older. If a church cannot afford your music ministry, they need to work of why they are not growing, which is not because of the music ministry. One move point, people appreciate what they have to sacrifice for. A free musician is less appreciated, rarely celebrated. just facts. This is coming from a 30 year minister of music. Lay people, I understand if you do not agree, but if you take a Sunday off, nobody notices. Let the minister of music take an unplanned weekend getaway, everyone is mad.
As much as i agree ill ask does the electric turn on in the church only if its paid. Should we hold the gas company or internet service provider to that same standard.....fair question.
Were the levites and the musicians in the Bible “pimping the church “ if not… then you can’t compare biblical times to how musicians depend on paying their bills.
However they did get food, wine, olive oil, and other amenities to help offset being a musician. King David's musicians could not perform until they were in their 40s and 50s. Prior they dedicated their lives to the temple and to the servitude of God. They were also given portions of sacrifices from the priests in the temple. There was some meats set aside for the food of the temple servants: priests, acolytes, musicians, and general servants to the temple. So yes, they were remunerated for being a musician in the temple.
@@robbiehill2344 explain how cities and communities function in biblical days or in the “old” testament? You can’t compare a time when they had no running water…. And when one ate many ate… I think a musician should be paid “if” others are being paid. Often ONLY the musicians are getting paid as if they are special. Is music greater than the word of God? The church is not required to be an employer. Your supposed to “give” to the church not take! Music is their to deliver souls not fill seats. You can justify paying musicians but are those musicians saved? No. But many are on the holy pulpit “entertaining” to keep the service appealing.
@Allister, yesss in Jamaica 🇯🇲 church musicians are not paid. I’ve only heard of payment since living in America🤷🏾♀️. I do understand their perspective tho, that if music is their only earnings then they need compensation🙏🏾
@@busybutbalanced24 totally agree. But then if the musicians get paid then me as a worship leader or BV should also.....so i believe it comes back to why, affordability for the church and your purpose and calling as a worker in the kingdom......hope i made sense there
I played in churches since I was 17 years old now I’m in my sixties never asked for one penny from the church I’m a bass player just not worth it anymore always in confict with the music director a total ass hole now I play for a recording studio making 5times the amount what a blessing so much for caring for band members and vocalists my heart goes out to them leave when can it’s not worth it
Wow. I just stumbled across this. I didn’t even know that the church entertainment industrial complex even existed. I guess every institution eventually grows to the point where this sort of thing happens
Bruh, I studied Music at college and got a degree, I play for my home church for a decade now. Since I am a member, I usually play for free, But for some reason, they tripled my work load (from accompanying the choir to being the choir director handling 2 choirs and at the same time I play the piano for the choir, also I play the organ for hymns during service + Praise and worship team + Christmas/Easter Cantatas for choir) I did this for 1 whole year! for free But I realized that this is not good I felt exploited because I can't reject or stop doing his because I am the only one able to do it. So I told them that I wanted, to get a stipend because it is not sustainable for me doing all sorts of job. Bruh, I acquired my skill over years so I am quite conflicted about the attitude that you are talking about. So frankly, I really snapped off and had that attitude that you are talking about, if they won't pay me, I won't play! So who is at fault here? them exploting me or me demanding to get paid? Currently, they are requesting for me to rehearse the choir for Christmas Cantata, and they will pay me 50$ ....like bruhhh really!!??? Will I ACCEPT THIS? so if I don't accept this, I have this attitude now? I would definitely understand if we are a small church but we are not! Although I get your point that your motivation should not be money at all but if you kept on doing things freely, this happens, "EXPLOITATION" thus I am having mixed emotions about this.
I do agree that musicians without a job should not seek out a church to simply get paid but sometimes a church seeks out a musician and in these cases, they should not be guilted into volunteering their services to a church especially if they are able to be paid as a pro musician elsewhere. Pastoring, teaching, worship, and more are all callings. So if requested a musician, can determine for themselves the time and work it takes to serve and request compensation. Think of it this way compared to now, how many of the Apostles, teachers, and others who shared and served the good news in the new testament were paid? So if not many why do churches today pay Pastors, executive pastors, teachers, youth pastors, janitors, secretaries, etc...if they were not paid in the new testament early assemblies. And so why of all these services provided do we choose to not pay certain people like perhaps a musician who may be the church worship leader.
I have been a church musician for over 30 years in several churches and have never been offered any pay or even expenses for equipment and yet the Bible states quite clearly that all church workers should be paid out of the tythe. Even those who serve coffee after the service should be paid the same rate as they would be outside after all the people expect their coffee to taste just as good and normally pay the same price. If God said musicians and workers should be paid why do so many churches ignore him
I think generally musicians are abused, but it is worse when it is the church that appears to be doing it. Every pastor who needs musicians should not have to debate wether to pay or not to pay them, when they know the right thing to do. Based on the scripture you just read and one in the new Testament by the Apostle Paul....who says that THOSE WHO WORK IN THE CHURCH - ALL OF THEM, INCLUDING MUSICIANS, should eat in the church. How do they eat in the church: musicians like every working person, commute to/from place of worship, they are required to be at their best at all times, on time, and they have needs like everyone else, etc. Given all these needs, it is best that all musicians be paid, otherwise, the church will loose them to the world. The musician who wants to negotiate his salary at the outset, may have worked for numerous churches, without his needs being taken care of. Remember, some of the musicians are bread-winners of their households. So, the musician who has had a track record of not being paid for his services in the church, may be weary that he gets used over and over by the church. The church should not be responsible for causing people to sin!! If you want volunteers, spell it out, so that there is no misunderstanding, but as soon as the church is able to can make good on paying musicians, then, the church must do so.
yes i think every area should get pay but they don't majority of church use the lord and the bible as a weapon for not paying you specially when they making millions of dollars even Thoe the bible and the commandments you have to pay if you doing business with a person are provide some type of value.. specially if you have to buy your own instruments and stuff its crazy.
10:51 even if the church don’t lay musicians directly - if there is a way for church to give gas cards - to cover travel and like accessories like strings Hardrive so whatever needed to offset cost would suffice ! It doesn’t make sense to have such a gifted talented musician and they struggle to get gas and maybe food or even iPad or sound. Packs lol Like church should supply that to ensure musician don’t have to cut there own budget ! Be a blessing to us not a lesson!
First off, the music director is different than the “musicians”. They should always be compensated. Some churches are at a level in which they want highly skilled musicians. However many professional level musicians gig on weekends for money. The church is asking you to give up a weekend of paid work to serve at church for free? You can’t do both without compromise. (You cannot serve two masters.😇) I see it as a church by church basis based on the commitment required. A church of one, relaxed service is different then the commitment of a multi day/ multi service, high production church with rehearsals.
The problem here is that its under the umbrella of spirituality. This is mostly a problem for talented musicians who expects to be paid verses talented musicians who doesnt view this as work, but rather volunteered service in worshipping, thereby having the church making an obvious monetary decision in their favor. The separation of Church and State makes this practically impossible to have a union for church musicians to be protected. Unlike the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) that protects actors who becomes a member of the union. Finally, having a musician hired who is not affiliated with the church and not spiritually connected can be detrimental for the church, as the overall gesture from the assembly is to please man and not God.
Pastor ever told me the answer to this qn. If he pays me. Then all the other church volunteers would also ask to be paid - wardens. Lectors, choir singers etc etc.
@@WorshipLeaderHangout because churches don’t pay musicians enough as it is and to have to give some back makes it where we might as well play for free and then we’re back to square one. Now if it’s in the musicians heart to do so that’s up to them but shouldn’t be required.
Just for me, I'm not sitting through a brainwashing session without being compensated. Lot of ridiculous stuff goes on in "church". Really wish human beings would grow up.
I think musicians should as well keep their faith in God to reward them for their works both physically and spiritually, because their is alot of situations where churches are unable to generously compensate the musicians
@@sr80bassguy thats true but should it be a priority at certain stages? My church is new, we are still getting instruments, speakers, mics, we just got a computer to run the live service lol etc. Imo giving priority to paying the musicians a standard pay would slow down the growth of the more important aspects, after a church settles and has good equipment etc I think then they could invest in those things. I think every musician should be understanding in the situation and regardless focus on God working miracles in their life due to their faith and faithfulness in God. God would work things out all in the right time. I think in the stages where standard or consistent pay is hard at least a sum of money once in a while would be sufficient. Of course every setting is different because a church finance team would know to themselves if they indeed just not choosing to pay their musicians well but for the heart of the musician to remain pure to give good worship to God i believe again he should look to God as his supplier and not be quick to think evil of his leaders. Secondly what about cleaners, handimen, persons who do transport, persons who organize hampers, etc. I think when paying any particular group the church leaders should be wise and the members of the individual groups should be understanding to the situation. Of course musicians are maybe the most skilled of the teams along side audio/visual persons but still things to keep in mind. Finally i think every church should reach a point where their musicians are paid very well and able to live comfortably off of their salary. (If they are able to).
Good subject one that’s never been talked about yes churches should pay every musician and vocalist it’s about time played for a church that on a wedesnday night rehearsal the music director called me out and attacked my character in front of the whole band because my bass ghitar didn’t sound right worst night of my life what an ass so much for forgiveness and humility never came back to play not worth it anymore now got a job at a music studio at least they are non christians and love you for who you are instead of being treated like an animal
It is a long time to wait for that answer. But of course, it would be irresponsible to only say "Yes," while being silent about the reasons *why* , and where in God's Word we find all this.
Why is there no where, where you can buy backing tracks for korg Yamaha Roland etc arranger keyboards, and audio tracks. like in the style like Boyce avenue, dies songs, full production backing tracks sound stupid when you have one or two or even three people on stage. Bass, drums, guitar, piano strings light backing vocals is the maximum that most churches want. You don't want it to sound like you are listening to a CD. Or Karaoke.
I am an ordained music minister/choir director/worship leader with 40 yrs of part-time experience, a ministry to which I definitely feel called by God to do. I’m 67, still playing guitars and keyboards, acoustic, electric and digital, and am blessed with a still youthful singing voice. Since I’m now recently “retired”, I spend 30-35 hours a week on my “part-time” job. For most of my life, though, I have had a 40-hr a week job along with my church job. Why? Why didn’t I just get a full- time ministry position? It’s because of the quiet disrespect that is always a part of being any paid staffer who is in a creative position. Why so strong a comment? Creative, artistic people are often disrespected and devalued by those who have no such abilities. The thinking is these abilities are something that we should just give away because “it’s a free GIFT from God, so shouldn’t you just use it for free? Why should you get paid for it?” No matter that we have worked hard and strived to turn our five talents into ten. Or our two into ten, for that matter. Believe me, it’s way better than it used to be, especially for songwriters, arrangers, and musicians, but the devaluation of the arts continues. Thank you both for an interesting discussion and an informative, helpful YT channel!
ordained music whateversssss leader there is no such thing.. ur a lobbyist😆
🎤 I honestly think that everyone looks at this from the Rwrong perspectiveright off the top I have been playing for churches for years so I got paid so I didn’t get paid and some we find creative ways to get paid because when we are paid we’re able to focus more on the spiritual portion of what we do musically and we’re not doing a 40 hour week job it takes us away from being in the church and being a part of the whole concept of praise and worship and Ministry. Should we get paid we sure should a doctor will go off and go to school and do so many years just to be a doctor Lora will do the same thing teachers of every sort will do the same thing and at the end of the day if these people become a part of your church do you ask them to work for free I don’t think so.
No as far as I know about hierarchy being a musician in the church a lot of people have said that Drummer‘s get paid the least sometimes that’s true most people don’t understand that being a keyboard player is nothing but being a glorified Drummer I believe the same rate of pay normally works I don’t believe just because you play piano or organ you should get paid more than the Bass Player or the Drummer or the Singer‘s. I think when you’re trying to mix any type of common sense with what you should do spiritually we try to play that game where it’s the clouded area there’s no clouds here nothing but God if God can feed the birds and all the beast and animals across the Earth how much should he do for you or you do for others. The best praise and worship band I’ve ever played in was in a Pentecostal church we all knew what we got paid we all knew what was expected of us and we came and then we did the work with those musicians that have given their lives to Christ and they understand what real ministry is all about where do you stand
Who ordained you ? God ? Jesus ? Holy Spirit ?
This is a great video. I've been a working church musician since I was 12 years old and received $30 per month as a salary. I've played for churches that paid musicians and I have played for those that didn't. Over 40 years I've seen this debate go back and forth and I will say this - if the musician is a blessing to the church then the church should be a blessing to the musician.
In college, I worked full-time as a TSA, 20 hours in the engineering lab, and played for 3 different churches in 3 different cities to get through college (I was an electrical engineering major with a whole load of classes simultaneously). I was so exhausted that I fell asleep in the middle of the day while driving and totaled my car. I'm blessed to be alive.
A friend of mine that played for the college choir told me about a church that needed a musician. I reached out to them. I was interviewed and after the interview they hired me. That church paid me $200 a week to be the church musician and to work with 5 different choirs but that was enough money for me to get another car, get married to the love of my life, and graduate with my engineering degree.
When the church as a whole starts to look at the roles they have that they can compensate I think they should. You don't know what that can do for a musician and his family.
Biblically, I think in Number 18, it talks about how all the offerings were taken to take care of the temple. That included an offering for the Levites - the musicians. I could be wrong on that but I do believe it is right to take care of your musicians financially. Thanks for this video.
I can relate to the $30 a month
When I was hired to play Vs volunteering to play I saw difference in how much I was appreciated because the ones that hired me they valued who I was as a musician but the ones that I volunteered to play for them treated me like crap. Ive seen this a lot in the church coming up volunteer musicians are unappreciated.
In a world of sin, the answer to "should?" will be imperfect. In a perfect (unselfish) world, the musician would be willing to play for free, and the church, out of sheer gratitude would pay him.
I play drums for my church from the age of 12 - 32 for both Youth, Sunday morning services, Sunday night service along with every revival service. Never got paid or expected I did it for the Lord, and it was my greatest worship. We had several talented musicians who all gave of their extraordinary talents because they loved the Lord. These guys were country or rock bands saved by God’s Grace, and now are music evangelists. Theses guys help develop our youth band which had to be the best by far in our district. None of these “Real Professionals” were ever paid, they did it for the Lord. I did receive gifts from time to time by different ministries of the church, and at all one point I was asked to come play for a church and they would pay my gas. The only real problem was the fact that it would be a 2 hour drive for all practices and services. That would be a lot of time away from my family after I just got married, and moving there wasn’t really an option. I don’t expect the church to pay that is me personally. Sometimes it’s just not in the means for the church to pay them, no matter the quality of the musician.
Brother! You hit the nail on the head! I played for a church for years and never got paid, but I love God! Even when a new pastor took over and started paying me, God moved on me to leave and play for another church, who didn't pay me, but now I pastor and God had blessed 🙏 so many people will miss there blessings for more money! Love your comment ❤️
You have really spoken well tho bro and God bless for your sacrifice. But I think that something is still left unsaid. What you did was actually a personal sacrifice but should it be the norm and use as standards for treating other church musician ? Yes we can encourage ourselves in the Lord but should not ignore the welfare of the church musicians. The question first seek to solve the misconception about musician being get paid. So if some of the church doesn’t have the means fine, God knows and it is different case. The Pastor in the church where I was playing for made me understood it was their responsibility to take care of me but the church then was not in good financial state. What hurts is that some church don’t consider how these musicians survive and yet need their services anytime. Some actually spent time and money and invested into becoming the said musician who live on their talent professionally but they tell them they should do that for God. The question is who were the levites ? How were they handled? They were handled as the Priests , so if the Priest is been paid and is telling you, yours must be free!, is that not selfishness? That is not love!! Plans must be taken to take care of church musicians who sacrifice to be there for the church with their resources... my opinion though ❤😇much love from Ghana
@@sampsonaborah1190❤❤❤
@@sampsonaborah1190well said my brother. I agree with you and I agree with the original post to an extent as well. There has to be a middle ground. I’m from South Africa, Cape Town and this is a back and forth battle within the church.
If I ever become a Pastor someday I will invest into my musicians. Maybe we can’t pay them immediately but we can take young talent and pay for music lessons and invest that way. Train them up professionally and have them pay you back by training up other youth and repeat the cycle. That way, if a musician feels like it’s time for him to leave, he can, because there will be someone suitable to replace him if what we are offering is not sufficient for him.
As a recording studio engineer/owner I have only been involved with Gospel and Contemporary christian music. I do have a real problem with churches who expect their musicians to do "freebies" on a regular basis. All of the musicians would be in their rights to organize and join a sacred music musicians union that protects the rights of their members.
I don't play for churches, music is my job I do for a living. In church I serve but I don't do music. Not because I wouldn't, but the church has an issue with this exact topic. So I would rather clean or usher at church,and do music at work where my gifts are appreciated and I am compensated
Awesome point...I have done that....
They will pay for backing tracks but not live music
Well said
Man, love this video. I've been playing with my church for over 5 years. I've seen fill in musicians 150 + for a service. I've never gotten that. I'm their lead guitarist. I play 3 services ,every week. My pastor pulled me aside and started given me 50 dollars in gift cards. But I only see that once every other month. Yet ,once again fill in musicians gets paid. Now ,it's not about the money, but my days( Fri,Sat) off,is learning and practicing the set list. Then play Saturday night service,and two on Sunday. Different set lists. It's work. Well ,just resently I've got a little upset at them, cause they expect me to lose hrs at work,just so that I make it to practice on Thursdays. I work 12 to 15 hr a day, Monday -Thursdays. My days off are invested in the church. Ive never ask them to get paid before. But I do have a meeting with them ,this Fri. And me and my family could use the extra income. On one hand I feel bad,because I'm doing for the lord, but on the other hand, their paying others. I do love my church and now ,alls I could do is pray about this. If you all could keep me in prayer as well ,I'd be very grateful. Once again, you guys nailed ,everything that I've been dealing with ,as a musician. Thank you guys .. Godbless
How did you make out
@Love1010P well.... lol. They basically told me that it's not in their Budget right now. That sunday after the meeting ,pastordid blessme with 150 and 100 worth of gift cards. Now , I get 100 ( here or their) but not all the time. I never know when it come. But God's timing is Impeccable. And they bless me with gift cards as well...like for gas and Groceries. Did get a pretty big raise at work, and they cut my hrs down. Kinda like a double raise. So, God is good! It all workers out . God's will be done..
GOD got you ! 🙏🏿
Karen here. Take up a quarterly collection. Churches have no problem doing that for guest speakers. Musicians buy their own equipment that breaks down. Give them a Christmas check. Food baskets. Etc. Show SOME appreciation. Many have families who give up time for musicians to practice at home and at church. Then play on Sunday and holidays and extra meetings. They also spend more time with Jesus and Holy Spirit, who gives songs and fills them up so worship brings and reveals His presence. It also stands to reason they stay around longer than leaders or Pastors, who move on or split churches, and go off on tangents.
This is about volunteers that have returned the following weeks.
Sometimes it may feel disrespectful if the church has the wrong approach with, "we should surely do something, we can't just not give them anything" Then the leadership procedes to give them a food basket or a little gas money, nothing might be better than that. Let them have their giving moment of service to the church & speak to them later about trying to be paid for their full value. That could be the last food gift basket they want to ever see from a church.
The leadership should obviously strongly pray about what to do with every situation.
GOD ALMIGHTY HIMSELF SAID DON'T STRENGTHENING THE HAND OF THE EVIL DOER ALL THAT DO SO IT'S A SIN. GOD GIVETH AND GOD TAKES IT AWAY ALL GIFTS AND TALENTS GIVEN BY HIS PERMISSION. KEEP BABBLING WITH Y'ALL WORTHLESS OPINIONS AND THOUGHTS ARE NOT LIKE GOD SO WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? I KNOW THAT YA'LL ARE LESS THAN NOTHING. GO LISTEN TO MY APOSTLE PASTOR GINO JENNINGS A TRUE MAN SENT BY GOD PREACHING ON SHOULD MUSICIANS GET PAID.
I am the lead musician for my local church and have served for over 40 years in the music ministry. Since then I also serve in other ministries and am also an ordained Evangelist. I am not a salaried musician nor minister of the Word, 1. Because we are a fairly small ministry and 2. It's something I enjoy doing. I am not a "skilled or trained" but Ive learned so much just by being consistent and faithful. However, I've learned much of what I know by ear and my love for worship. One of my concerns for paid musicians exclusively is that many of them are not members of a local church so they consider themselves hired servants and not levitical by calling. Many of them also play other forms of genre of music on the side as gigs so there isn't always a commitment to the service of God.
I have a bachelor’s degree in music. I love the Lord with all of my heart and when I play, it is indeed a service unto my God. The church has to understand that good musicianship is a SKILL that is highly developed and takes years and hours.
I agree, what's happening is churches are bringing ln pimps to play music because they often competing with other churches ,😮music is nice and it helps but if you don't have music just do like the bible says, make a joyful noise psalm 100 ,don't compromise pray that God will bless you with a musician instead of a week end pimp
@@heyheyhey40 Well said. I also have a BM in performance and am in 100% agreement of this.
YES THEY SHOULD!!! Just as you would pay a plumber or a janitor, we’re all working. It also creates accountability that you can’t have with volunteers. Furthermore, churches need to raise funds to operate. Good worship music creates the spiritual experience that parishioners long for and in turn will give more and thus helping the church more. Invest a little into your musicians and get a great return.
Thank you brother well said!!!!!
Good point
Volunteer singer here. Basically full time worship leader and director on and off at the church discretion. The ministry has grown throughout the last 12 years I’ve been part of it and I’ve witnessed people coming on to staff but the worship team until last year that someone was brought in on staff to manage and direct us. Long story short, there were hurt feelings through and through and I keep pushing because I’m doing this for the Lord regardless but there is hurt.
I have always been on the fence with this as I work media and have been told that I wouldn't get paid even though some projects take hours, and sometimes days to complete. I still did the job as if I were getting paid for it.
I do too
@@roccog7333 even I do
What do you believe God says about this?
I am so glad you guys are talking about this because it needs to be spoken about
I just dont understand why the payment of instrumentalists is always a debate. Nobody questions whether the pastor should be paid or not. WHY???
A worker is worthy of his hire. You dont see many pastors who dont get paid. It takes a great investment in time to become proficient in music. It take money for lessons and expensive instruments. It is right and reasonable that a full time professionals who make their living from their craft shoul be paid. You get whay you pay for. Some people can afford to volunteer because they earn money in another field. They might raise to the level of semiprofessional. There are pastors who could take 1 less vacation, or drive something less then a Cadillac, or live a less luxurious lifestyle. You all have made some good points. I say if a church can afford it, pay the musicians.
Great podcast. Completely agree with your stance on this topic. I'm a keyboard player and co worship leader. Our church is one that can afford to pay only the worship leader at this time. We are a smaller church of only around 100-120 and both me and the other worship leader that split the role after our previous worship leader moved out of state to be with family have both agreed that we were unwilling to take the salary. This was also during the pandemic so funds were tight. To me, I don't mind doing it on a volunteer basis. I have a full time job that pays the bills. Our pastor and youth pastor however are dependent upon it and we much more vital to the core function of the church. I would much rather donate my time and make sure they can provide for their families.
Much respect
Great outlook....it's situational....
Interesting conversation! Thanks for sharing. I haven’t really made up my mind on the topic... In Germany where I live, paying musicians or even worship leaders is basically not a thing (with only so few exceptions that I probably know half the evangelical church musicians in Germany who ARE getting paid by name). So I’ve never been in the position to ask for payment and have only been paid small sums for a handful of events where I was brought on as a fill in. For my own church, paying musicians is hardly an option since we should raise our pastor’s salary before even thinking about employing other people.
I think there are three underlying questions that I feel like I’d need to answer for myself before I can even join the conversation that you are having here (and you actually touch on these a little bit but it seems like you both have clear answers to these).
1) Why would we need better musicians? I could think of several hypothetical answers such as "better musicianship (-> less distraction) -> more anointed worship", "better musicianship -> higher production value -> higher attractiveness for unchurched people" and others.
2) What about paying people who work in other capacities? Do you go by skill needed for the task? Dedication? Trustworthiness? Importance in church meetings? I’m thinking FoH engineers, media creators and more.
3) If we decide that better musicians would be desirable (which I can totally get on board with btw), how do we know how to prioritize making salaries for musicians a reality? With all the other financial needs of a typical church, along with our mission to reach the world for Jesus, this is not a self-answering question.
I’d be extremely interested in what both of your opinions on these questions are. If you’ve addressed them at some point in the past and I missed it - sorry bout that. =) If not, maybe that would be an interesting topic for a future podcast?
As always I appreciate the thoughtful manner in which you guys talk about central topics of worship ministry! God bless you!
I like the tone in which this conversation was had. I have been part of a worship team for years, I am now one of the worship leaders. I think this topic is situational. Do I think musicians should be paid? Yes I do. But with that comes added responsibility for the musician to uphold the standard of music. Some churches cannot afford to pay, each situation is different. Our church has about 30 members, we're on a roster, how do you pay everyone? Do you select the more experienced persons and leave the latter out? Its a tough conversation to have, but a good one.
People without musical talents have always devalued and taken advantage of those without. Whether it's intentional or not. The quality does need to be held to a standard and it is taken for granted. It takes hard work and time. Why is my hard work and time worth nothing? The quality of the music is important and that is trampled on by insisting on volunteers. Not everyone can do this. It is distracting and frustrating to listen to someone mess up constantly or fail to sing notes correctly. The problem is the community and the attitude towards musicians in the church. Of course we give to the church and volunteer in many other ways. But we deserve respect.
The best music churches I've been to have paid the musicians. Music brings in the tithers it brings in the money. It is a fact.
I understand the economics of making the church a business. For me, i have seen many churches fail because of money. You cannot serve both mammon and God.
Real easy answer. Pastors minister thru spoken word. Musicians minister thru spoken word (lyrics) and or with instruments. Look to the Bible, the levite musicians we're paid along with the temple workers and priest (present-day pastors). About 4-5 weeks ago I traveled with a buddy who spoke at my old church. I hadnt played my guitar in awhile but I bought it along. I did a guitar-vocal piece and played two songs with the head elder's daughter. They sent the preacher a check and didn't send me anyting. He spoke today. He asked me earlier this week did I want to come along again and bring my guitar. I asked him was there any pay involved and he said he had nothing to do with it. I said, why don't you ask them for me? When he evaded my question again I said, why don't you give me part of your pay, I am ministering too. Anyway we have to prepare and execute just like they do. Although musicians enhance the services and in some cases have more influence over the spoken word, the majority of pastors and churches don't see it that way. If musicians stop offering free services, this will put a halt to this disrespect and undervaluing..
I have participated in church for many decades. I have been on both sides, being paid and for the enjoyment to God. There are positions i believe should be paid: e.i. directors of music in the church. Why? People, especially in the church congregations, do not realize the amount of work done behind the scenes with a great music program in the church. They manage the program, they must consult with the pastor to coordinate music each week, work with various leads in various programs but usually ends up being that sole director, listening to music arrangements, choir gowns, attending conferences, this director if doing their duties take on a lot of time, not simply rehersal time where no one receives any compensation. I also suggest paying the pianist too. They spend hours practicing for the rehearsal in addition to being on call to accompany soloists or groups, they also must be there unless they are dead so the responsibility is heavier on the pianist/organist.
I'm going to add to my comment. I'm at a place in my life and walk with God that I don't want to be paid. now if it's a position where attendance is required then I might expect a little compensation. I'm one of those musicians who takes pride in his craft and don't need a full rehearsal to rehearsal my own to make sure that I know the music as soon as I walk through that door so that's why I say I can miss a rehearsal but if it is required I would expect some type of compensation
Consider this as a lead musician I m pouring back into the ministry financially to improve our quality
I dont think the issue is SHOULD musicians be paid, the question is CAN a musician be paid. To give balance to the conversation, it depends on the size, scale and scope of ministry. Like any other organization. Some people still argue that churches should not be run like a "corporation," but in order to fairly compensate mysician staff as u outlined, a church has to have a corporate structure. You make a good argument for why churches have to be run like aniy other business. In any corporation as the company does better, they pass the proceeds on to employees in the form of raises, bonuses, stock option etc. As a business loses revenue, it is felt in the staff as well.
I don’t expect to be paid, we are in this for God. However, acknowledgment, appreciation, and an occasional display of love would be so appreciated. By and large, church musicians are under appreciated and taken for granted, and sometimes even mistreated by the leadership. Still we press on for the love of Jesus, and for His body.
Let's take a good look at other professions and skills that take time to develop. Imagine a technician or a bricklayer or a carpenter who is a member of your church, are those guys also going to render their to the church for free?
Should a tailor sew robes for free?
Should a cinematographer cover services for free?
Let's take good look at these. This is exactly why a lot of church musicians leave the church for secular establishments.
I've been a church musician for many years..... I think we mix working and serving God too much. Musicians arent supposed to get paid....and they arent supposed to not get paid. It is up to the church and the musician. The only scripture that needs to be read concerning this is "Do unto others as you would have done unto you," and "Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart." That is the extent of the bibles take on paying musician..... I've learned, that playing is a job.....a hard job....and you are working for the people...... Yes do everything as unto the Lord......but playing in the church is just as equally done as unto the Lord as driving a city bus. Yet it is ok and good to volunteer to do either. The only time I play for God....is with I am alone playing with my headphones on......where only He can hear me... and I tell you, He has never judged me for a wrong note pressed, playing the same song too much or not increasing in skill level..... In church we play for the enjoyment of the people......which is also fine and good.
Let us not mistake a volunteer musician as being more holy than one who demands paid.... For this is unrelated to true holiness. And let us be careful when we judge that another should not receive compensation that they believe they deserve........for as we judge......we are judged. And God is not mocked.......whatsoever a man soweth....that shall he also reap.
If we desire to have what we want.....allow musicians to desire more for themselves without judgement......
Yes we should be paid🔥🔥🔥
Yes we should bro!!!!!
Yes sir!!
I'm a musician, I'm not paid now but I was paid years back when I deputised for someone
The pay only made me better and more committed not because the money was much but because I had to live up to the billing
How much more a very skilled musician with more or less no other source of livelihood
If you are a guest musician and not a member of the church, YOU SHOULD BE PAID! PERIOD!! I played trumpet for Christmas and Easter at churches for years. I got paid. My own church I had a brass quartet for Christmas, was promised money for all of us, and instead they gave us wine. they embarrassed the hell out of me in from of my fellow music students. I ended up sending them checks as if the church had paid us. I left the church I grew up in because of this. why is there any debate about this? what a joke. I've had big corporations that own senior homes NOT pay me for weeks, for singing and playing on guitar etc., months and not at all when another entity takes over. Attitude and spirit will change real fast when you're not paid . Another time a local Nazarene church and college eccentric choir director a arranged all the music, wrote his own cantata for the Easter service, had 20 people playing at Ester service. After saying we would get paid, we never did. I told him off, since he had a higher education. A doctorate Degree in Music, at a small college, he ought to have more common sense and human civilly and honesty to drag in musicians, doesn't matter if it's a church, bar wedding reception, or if your plumber. hard to collect from corporations.
Sorry to hear that happened to you at your own church. I understand your pain having been on a similar receiving end. Not all churches are like that. There are those that honor the Word of God and value their workers.
I feel church makes this a bit harder than it is. A medium size church should be able to place a certain amount or percent to the ministry. Simply put…say a church has 500 members and we all know that about 20% give tithes and medium income is 50k and the remaining member just give a $30 offering. This will yield about 1,124,000 a year. If the church just allocates 10% to the ministry say 8 (band of 5 and 2 singers 1 sound guy)….it’s about $112,500 a year or $270 a week for each one. I don’t see how this can be a hindrance to the church.
I know that the pastors can say…yeah, but I’m concerned about how your spiritual life is by us paying the musician. To which I understand; however, the spiritual life of each one of the members isn’t supposed to be the determining factor of “an excuse” not to pay…it’s a personal matter of the member and God. (Is the church not going to receive a tithe of an non spiritual member?)
I know that not every church can pay. And I’ve served without pay…but it should be a work in progress because if it isn’t a work in progress it will never happen. This to me is indicative of a bad management of funds.
I think it depends on the situation. It's not a blanket answer. In most churches, the worship leader is part time, which means the church probably doesn't have a ton of money to start paying 10 or 15 other people.
what is the going rate for keyboardist
In music business, the leader/manager would take the payment at the end of the night, and pay each member who performed. Today's church really not much a difference. Worship leader would take the payment, divide it, and pay each member of the band/choir He does get paid a bit more than say the drummer.
Strings, cables, picks and time is not free. There is a cost. If you are giving of your time and you are not getting paid, then I withhold my monetary giving because my time IS NOT FREE. RARELY is it a case where a church of 300+ people do not have the financial ability to pay you. IT IS the case, that they do not value you and the other musicians.
I think Yes !! because sometimes the musician has another job and doesn't have time to rehearse for the Saturday service.
Guys in the Philippines we have volunteer musicians and they do lay really good and they are worshipping God, it’s better to develop a musician with a good amount of skill and see them grow.
I didn’t even know church musicians got paid to be honest. That would be a dream job to me! I tried finding a video like this because I’m curious about it. I’m a church drummer and I play Sunday mornings, Wednesday evenings sometimes, for youth group, and other special events at church of about 500 ppl. On the one hand, I don’t want it to necessarily be about the money because it’s for God initially, but it is a lot of time dedicated to not get paid. Any thoughts?
100% YES!!!
My church doesn’t pay musicians (but there again, members who do a myriad of other tasks necessary to run a church don’t get paid either).
This church is just too small to pay anyone other than a pastor.
Having said that, I still believe that our time has value. As a musician/singer, I’ve worked out how many hours it takes on any given week to prepare, rehearse and participate in a Sunday service. I “pay” myself (at the legal minimum wage per hour) by deducting that amount from what I would otherwise give to the church in tithes/offerings.
I know that many would disagree with this (if they knew ☺) and I’d respect their right to have that opinion.
But honestly I’ve never regretted or questioned myself about taking this approach.
Where is the sacrifice for the Lord?
I'm not apposed to money for musicians especially in a very large church but where is the sacrifice and will heart because of what Christ has done
Let's face it, you've got phenomenal musicians that work at Burger King, teach lessons, substitute teach, etc to try & cobble together a living. For a church to request hours of service, without offering so much as a $10 gas card, is exploitative...Also, a musician who says to a church, "I won't play unless I get paid", is being honest. Nothing wrong with that.
The male speaker do not have any base in his voice and appear a little soft in his manuisium
Well said
You guys are addressing the root of the problem
As a pianist who didn’t do any planning and was only expected to be an accompanist and I did this for more than a decade and I was not paid and this was a huge church. I think part of it was because I grew up in that church and the other part was the culture of the church.
Now, I’m in a small church that reached out to me because they needed a musician - I plan the music, practice with the choir weekly, play the piano and also lead the worship in singing and sing solos. It’s a very small church and they don’t have a lot of money - but they do pay me.
what is the going rate for keyboardist
@@MRJOSHmo44 It depends on the size of the church and what they’ve budgeted. Also it depends on how many services they want you to play and whether rehearsals are also required. I’m not charging for rehearsals at this church.
@@pamelaredd5967
You are not supposed to be paid.
You should do it for the Lord.
You can dedicate your life to God and doing His service. Unless you have a constant source of food, shelter, health care, and extra income to afford all of your personal expenses, how can you simply say, "you're supposed to do it for God without getting paid." You have a job that allows that. Thats 37.5 hours to b3 sustainable, then at minimum an additional 10 hours driving, plus 10 hours of rehearsals, then performances, not to mention all the time researching music arrangements if your church is that big. And what if you had a family? So with that time commitment should come remuneration
I've been the worship leader/music director at my small Baptist church for 7 years. I haven't been paid a dime, nor do I expect to be paid. I'm not a full-time musician and have a full time job. I'm 28 and have been playing music for 16 years. God has given me the gift of musicianship, so I use it to give back to Him. All of our musicians are members of the church and are volunteers as well. Our pastor is the only position that is paid, and even then, He still has a full-time job. We have on average 70 members present on Sundays. I put out an ad looking for some volunteer musicians and recieved a very angry email basically saying "how dare you not pay musicians!"
I agree about removing the money factor. Although I get paid, I have largely served as a church musician on a voluntary basis. I would serve regardless of being paid or not.
Why didn't you give your church checks back then?
@@mr.bsmusic2317 because I appreciated the blessing. But again, I do it for the love of ministry, not for the honorarium.
"Would have, but didn't"
@Mr. B's Music Why should he? He's entitled to the fruits of his labor. He put years, and years, of practice, refining his craft, and developing his skills to be a musician in the ministry. Sounds to me like you don't have much clue as to what it takes and the sacrifices that have to be made.
As long as the pastor takes a salary, I or any other musician should collect also. It's a no brainer!
And the janitor, and the sound guy, and the light tech, and the person who made the design for the current sermon series, and the people who do kids ministry, the lady who brings cake, and...
sorry for being a little sarcastic, but I think it’s far from a no brainer. Who do you pay for what? I mean... you know as well as I do that there are many many people outside of the worship team who invest a lot of time and some of whom have developed quite some skill in their ministry. I guess my question is: What would you say are the criteria for who gets paid and who doesn’t? Because I doubt that all volunteers at church can be paid a noteworthy amount for what they do.
Pastors should not be paid. Paul had a job.
Great perspective guys, thanks for the honest conversation.
This is so powerful and so needed in the body of Christ.
excellent topic and great points guys. Thank you! I agree 100 percent.
I gotten this question a lot,especially at the family churches
It's not always just "I'm only doing this if I'm paid". Sometimes it's a matter of just going somewhere else if you're not paid fairly. Suppose there's a church who you support 95% of their message who doesn't pay vs a church who you only support 80% of their message, but they pay fairly. I don't think it's wrong to chose the paying church. You can still serve God in a church you don't agree with as much. In some ways, limiting yourself to only churches you agree with most is ego-centric, as if we personally are given some special insight into which church serves God better.
The fact that this is even a question baffles my mind. If someone seriously questions whether they should pay me, I walk. For the record, church isn't my thing. But I have on occasion over the years played in church. The talent spectrum is (how can I put this delicately?) ...pretty broad. I've played with people who've worked with Grammy winners or nominees. I've also played with people who had no clue what they were doing. So for me, as someone outside the church and looking in, it's no surprise that this question gets asked. Here's another thing. It's a matter of economics. Smaller churches simply don't have the funds to pay musicians while larger ones have enough attendance to support that. For me, this is my work. This is how I pay the bills. I have demo work that I can present along with my resume and a B/W headshot. I also invite people who are interested in hiring me to come to a gig where I'm working so they can make an informed decision.
Why don't you pay them $20 each? I worked for a worship leader that paid out of pocket to get good musicians. Give your 10% to the musicians on your praise team. The politics of church is one of the reasons I quit playing at church.
I’m glad the Lord led me to your video. 😢Sadly we are going through church woes at my church and I sing on the choir(not a lead) so does the choir members need to be paid also? I’m just finding out that musicians are paid to play in church and it’s so disappointing because if the “money is not right” they act weird. Which I can discern and disrupts me internally. I hate that in church this is an issue.
The whole only the drummer getting paid deal is another subject matter that i am conflicted about
to add, the rehearsal and performances should be considered your servitude to God with no other expectation of any gratitude unless it comes from God. However being paid for weddings and funerals is common courtesy to the musicians requested. More of a thank you for your services, there is no set fee. Great topic.
I respect the hearts in this video.
That is what made me leave the church I was attending. I started with the church giving all my best, training the choir, playing the bass, piano at some point, shooting videos, doing sound engineer, doing graphic designs. They feel they can't pay for the same thing I am doing but they bring a filling person and pay them heavily. And that is unfair and there is no Love doing that. They don't even give anything at least to show concern. It's also the attitude of some churches that makes some people get to the point of not wanting to play for any church except they are paid
Were there other factors that they claimed to be the reason why they couldn’t pay you? Just curious. Thanks for sharing.
@@WorshipLeaderHangout there no factor at all. It's just an attitude that some so called "Pastors" have developed, and these ones are only concerned about business and not ministry. Specifically, let me give an example, I help with sound engineering every time, but the day I had an event which they already knew and wasn't on a Sunday or rehearsal day. And they wanted to fix sound check on a day I have another event, I run other business which they need to understand that, and they wanted me to leave what was going to pay me and come for what I won't be paid for. I gave them an alternative day that I can do instead of that specific day. There are so many situations but I was patient till when I couldn't take it again. I just realized I was in the wrong church. Not every place is meant for everyone
I do believe musicians should be paid. There is a lot of time and sacrifice involved that I don't think most people even know or understand. I also understand churches not being able to afford to pay musicians. I'm currently not paid. Here's my current issue, if I'm not being paid then you can't try to dictate when I play or how often I play. If I want to sit out a week to worship with my family then I'm able to do that and shouldn't be getting any pushback.
Also a musician should understand the particular ministry they're going to and the membership like a small congregation may not have funds to pay musicians because of bills and mortgages and utilities.
I really appreciate the heart of your points. As well, some of your perspectives help me see through a different lens. I would like to ask, if you believe the musicians should be paid for their service to the church, how do you feel about skilled dgroup leaders who devote time to preparation, or skilled youth and kid workers?
The Word of God should be deeply studied in context, and surrendered to, in order to answer that question.
So... I agree that you should take care of the ministers (including techs and musicians) however, I have seen the opposite issue, where in the name of getting the "Best Musicians" some of the members weren't even believers. but they were great musicians.
Like everything, there is a balance.
Yeah you gotta watch out for that. Thanks for watching.
All church musicians should get paid, all church musicians should not be playing for the money. As the young man said, if you do not pay for musicians, you will not have the worship ministry you desire, and God expects. The members pay for music and TV all the time with no spiritual value, but want to have a powerful experience at church without taking care of the musicians. Most of the time, the best musicians have to move on to paid positions so they do not end up in the "fields." I played for $75 per month for 10 years. That did not cover 1/2 of what I spent on equipment. I would not advise anyone to accept that now that I am older. If a church cannot afford your music ministry, they need to work of why they are not growing, which is not because of the music ministry. One move point, people appreciate what they have to sacrifice for. A free musician is less appreciated, rarely celebrated. just facts. This is coming from a 30 year minister of music. Lay people, I understand if you do not agree, but if you take a Sunday off, nobody notices. Let the minister of music take an unplanned weekend getaway, everyone is mad.
As much as i agree ill ask does the electric turn on in the church only if its paid. Should we hold the gas company or internet service provider to that same standard.....fair question.
Were the levites and the musicians in the Bible “pimping the church “ if not… then you can’t compare biblical times to how musicians depend on paying their bills.
However they did get food, wine, olive oil, and other amenities to help offset being a musician. King David's musicians could not perform until they were in their 40s and 50s. Prior they dedicated their lives to the temple and to the servitude of God. They were also given portions of sacrifices from the priests in the temple. There was some meats set aside for the food of the temple servants: priests, acolytes, musicians, and general servants to the temple. So yes, they were remunerated for being a musician in the temple.
@@robbiehill2344 were they saved and members of the church or were they hirelings? Look it up.
@@robbiehill2344 explain how cities and communities function in biblical days or in the “old” testament? You can’t compare a time when they had no running water…. And when one ate many ate… I think a musician should be paid “if” others are being paid. Often ONLY the musicians are getting paid as if they are special. Is music greater than the word of God? The church is not required to be an employer. Your supposed to “give” to the church not take! Music is their to deliver souls not fill seats. You can justify paying musicians but are those musicians saved? No. But many are on the holy pulpit “entertaining” to keep the service appealing.
Been in loved in a church with musicians being all volunteers and the music was awesome.....this was in the Caribbean though
@Allister, yesss in Jamaica 🇯🇲 church musicians are not paid. I’ve only heard of payment since living in America🤷🏾♀️. I do understand their perspective tho, that if music is their only earnings then they need compensation🙏🏾
@@busybutbalanced24 totally agree. But then if the musicians get paid then me as a worship leader or BV should also.....so i believe it comes back to why, affordability for the church and your purpose and calling as a worker in the kingdom......hope i made sense there
We need to get back to the basics. Church is becoming more of a production.
I played in churches since I was 17 years old now I’m in my sixties never asked for one penny from the church I’m a bass player just not worth it anymore always in confict with the music director a total ass hole now I play for a recording studio making 5times the amount what a blessing so much for caring for band members and vocalists my heart goes out to them leave when can it’s not worth it
Wow. I just stumbled across this. I didn’t even know that the church entertainment industrial complex even existed. I guess every institution eventually grows to the point where this sort of thing happens
Bruh, I studied Music at college and got a degree,
I play for my home church for a decade now.
Since I am a member, I usually play for free,
But for some reason, they tripled my work load (from accompanying the choir to being the choir director handling 2 choirs and at the same time I play the piano for the choir, also I play the organ for hymns during service + Praise and worship team + Christmas/Easter Cantatas for choir) I did this for 1 whole year! for free But I realized that this is not good I felt exploited because I can't reject or stop doing his because I am the only one able to do it. So I told them that I wanted, to get a stipend because it is not sustainable for me doing all sorts of job. Bruh, I acquired my skill over years so I am quite conflicted about the attitude that you are talking about.
So frankly, I really snapped off and had that attitude that you are talking about, if they won't pay me, I won't play! So who is at fault here? them exploting me or me demanding to get paid?
Currently, they are requesting for me to rehearse the choir for Christmas Cantata, and they will pay me 50$ ....like bruhhh really!!??? Will I ACCEPT THIS? so if I don't accept this, I have this attitude now? I would definitely understand if we are a small church but we are not!
Although I get your point that your motivation should not be money at all but if you kept on doing things freely, this happens, "EXPLOITATION" thus I am having mixed emotions about this.
I do agree that musicians without a job should not seek out a church to simply get paid but sometimes a church seeks out a musician and in these cases, they should not be guilted into volunteering their services to a church especially if they are able to be paid as a pro musician elsewhere.
Pastoring, teaching, worship, and more are all callings. So if requested a musician, can determine for themselves the time and work it takes to serve and request compensation. Think of it this way compared to now, how many of the Apostles, teachers, and others who shared and served the good news in the new testament were paid? So if not many why do churches today pay Pastors, executive pastors, teachers, youth pastors, janitors, secretaries, etc...if they were not paid in the new testament early assemblies. And so why of all these services provided do we choose to not pay certain people like perhaps a musician who may be the church worship leader.
Do churches have the whole heart of the lanscape guy or janitor or plumber etc. We must put music in the working service catagory
I have been a church musician for over 30 years in several churches and have never been offered any pay or even expenses for equipment and yet the Bible states quite clearly that all church workers should be paid out of the tythe. Even those who serve coffee after the service should be paid the same rate as they would be outside after all the people expect their coffee to taste just as good and normally pay the same price. If God said musicians and workers should be paid why do so many churches ignore him
Culture
Exactly. Not just culturally, but they've flat-out chosen to ignore this fact in the Word.
I think generally musicians are abused, but it is worse when it is the church that appears to be doing it. Every pastor who needs musicians should not have to debate wether to pay or not to pay them, when they know the right thing to do. Based on the scripture you just read and one in the new Testament by the Apostle Paul....who says that THOSE WHO WORK IN THE CHURCH - ALL OF THEM, INCLUDING MUSICIANS, should eat in the church. How do they eat in the church: musicians like every working person, commute to/from place of worship, they are required to be at their best at all times, on time, and they have needs like everyone else, etc. Given all these needs, it is best that all musicians be paid, otherwise, the church will loose them to the world.
The musician who wants to negotiate his salary at the outset, may have worked for numerous churches, without his needs being taken care of. Remember, some of the musicians are bread-winners of their households. So, the musician who has had a track record of not being paid for his services in the church, may be weary that he gets used over and over by the church. The church should not be responsible for causing people to sin!!
If you want volunteers, spell it out, so that there is no misunderstanding, but as soon as the church is able to can make good on paying musicians, then, the church must do so.
yes i think every area should get pay but they don't majority of church use the lord and the bible as a weapon for not paying you specially when they making millions of dollars even Thoe the bible and the commandments you have to pay if you doing business with a person are provide some type of value.. specially if you have to buy your own instruments and stuff its crazy.
Great pod cast guys!! Miss you both!!!
Thank you Oscar. Miss you too
thats all i want!!!!! too not need money for church's !
may good bless me
10:51 even if the church don’t lay musicians directly - if there is a way for church to give gas cards - to cover travel and like accessories like strings
Hardrive so whatever needed to offset cost would suffice ! It doesn’t make sense to have such a gifted talented musician and they struggle to get gas and maybe food or even iPad or sound. Packs lol
Like church should supply that to ensure musician don’t have to cut there own budget ! Be a blessing to us not a lesson!
The common sense podcast ive been waiting for.
First off, the music director is different than the “musicians”. They should always be compensated. Some churches are at a level in which they want highly skilled musicians. However many professional level musicians gig on weekends for money. The church is asking you to give up a weekend of paid work to serve at church for free? You can’t do both without compromise. (You cannot serve two masters.😇) I see it as a church by church basis based on the commitment required. A church of one, relaxed service is different then the commitment of a multi day/ multi service, high production church with rehearsals.
They're already tax free, they should be able to pay the people who create the entire atmosphere
If the musicians are the ones creating the atmosphere something is wrong with the church. Worship is more than song and dance.
The problem here is that its under the umbrella of spirituality. This is mostly a problem for talented musicians who expects to be paid verses talented musicians who doesnt view this as work, but rather volunteered service in worshipping, thereby having the church making an obvious monetary decision in their favor. The separation of Church and State makes this practically impossible to have a union for church musicians to be protected. Unlike the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) that protects actors who becomes a member of the union. Finally, having a musician hired who is not affiliated with the church and not spiritually connected can be detrimental for the church, as the overall gesture from the assembly is to please man and not God.
Pastor ever told me the answer to this qn. If he pays me. Then all the other church volunteers would also ask to be paid - wardens. Lectors, choir singers etc etc.
Yes....
Just a thought-- if we pay the musicians, then what about the Sunday school teachers? Please don’t entertain me at church- hard subject.
Is it to pay the musicians or instrumentalist player
If the pastor is paid and church staff is paid,isn't the musicians part of the church staff? We should be paid as well.
Should musicians tithe (financially) back into the church from which they are paid?
No
Why
I believe so. I tithe on my Worship Pastor salary.
@@WorshipLeaderHangout because churches don’t pay musicians enough as it is and to have to give some back makes it where we might as well play for free and then we’re back to square one. Now if it’s in the musicians heart to do so that’s up to them but shouldn’t be required.
@@WorshipLeaderHangout just curious about the line of thinking. Our musicians are paid, but they don’t tithe (they openly shared that info).
Church musicians should only be paid if, 1. They are born again believer, and have taken up full time ministry.
Just for me, I'm not sitting through a brainwashing session without being compensated. Lot of ridiculous stuff goes on in "church". Really wish human beings would grow up.
I think musicians should as well keep their faith in God to reward them for their works both physically and spiritually, because their is alot of situations where churches are unable to generously compensate the musicians
They ARE able if they make it a priority
@@sr80bassguy thats true but should it be a priority at certain stages? My church is new, we are still getting instruments, speakers, mics, we just got a computer to run the live service lol etc.
Imo giving priority to paying the musicians a standard pay would slow down the growth of the more important aspects, after a church settles and has good equipment etc I think then they could invest in those things. I think every musician should be understanding in the situation and regardless focus on God working miracles in their life due to their faith and faithfulness in God. God would work things out all in the right time.
I think in the stages where standard or consistent pay is hard at least a sum of money once in a while would be sufficient. Of course every setting is different because a church finance team would know to themselves if they indeed just not choosing to pay their musicians well but for the heart of the musician to remain pure to give good worship to God i believe again he should look to God as his supplier and not be quick to think evil of his leaders.
Secondly what about cleaners, handimen, persons who do transport, persons who organize hampers, etc. I think when paying any particular group the church leaders should be wise and the members of the individual groups should be understanding to the situation. Of course musicians are maybe the most skilled of the teams along side audio/visual persons but still things to keep in mind.
Finally i think every church should reach a point where their musicians are paid very well and able to live comfortably off of their salary. (If they are able to).
You mentioned an ad. Is common place to put out ads for volunteer musicians in local papers and stores?
Of course!!!! The preacher gets paid!!! Plus the money collected in the church is for the well being of the church!!!
I love this channel
Playing an instrument is work. Work is for pay. Preacher gets paid.
Good subject one that’s never been talked about yes churches should pay every musician and vocalist it’s about time played for a church that on a wedesnday night rehearsal the music director called me out and attacked my character in front of the whole band because my bass ghitar didn’t sound right worst night of my life what an ass so much for forgiveness and humility never came back to play not worth it anymore now got a job at a music studio at least they are non christians and love you for who you are instead of being treated like an animal
And also I’m getting paid for playing its like night and day my advice is churches respect your mucisians they have feelings too
5:45 If God took away your ability should you still get paid ?
The musicians should tithe … no matter paid or not
Money changes everything
Thirty-five minutes and twenty seconds is a long time to say the word yes.
It is a long time to wait for that answer. But of course, it would be irresponsible to only say "Yes," while being silent about the reasons *why* , and where in God's Word we find all this.
Why is there no where, where you can buy backing tracks for korg Yamaha Roland etc arranger keyboards, and audio tracks. like in the style like Boyce avenue, dies songs, full production backing tracks sound stupid when you have one or two or even three people on stage. Bass, drums, guitar, piano strings light backing vocals is the maximum that most churches want. You don't want it to sound like you are listening to a CD. Or Karaoke.