It's not about being judgmental or criticizing the facts are facts, someone who doesn't know God, someone who doesn't have the spirit inside, how can they worship God? As a Christian musician, you can't just walk with one without the other. You have to be skilled with your instrument AND be in the spirit. It's better( in my humble opinion) to have one person in the spirit lead worship than to have a stage full of extremely skilled musicians.
@@Cordlby you know that's a valid question..the thing is that God sees what we can't and knows what we can't understand/know. Scripture says that we walk by faith and not by sight.
@@chuckpugsley759 Woah woah woah hold on a sec. There is a difference between seeing something in scripture and purposefully manipulating it. I'm not trying to manipulate it, and I can easily say, why did Jesus use Judas for his ministry then if he was unequally yoked?
@@Cordlby you pose a good question. May we analyze this logically? The video is asking about using a nonbeliever in worship service. Judas was never used in the worship service of the church. He was not there Acts 2 when the church started. We have no example of nonbelievers serving in worship service of the church.
I started playing at church because it was a gig. I always believed in God but through worship I really came to know Jesus. Playing the worship music and seeing it affect people is such a strong way really made me dig into who is this Jesus. So for me and others that I know being on the worship team was really Gods way of guiding me to Jesus and is no longer just a gig at all but a very intimate special time for me to share my spiritual gifts with God and the congregation.
This is just the situation that first came to mind... winning one more soul to the Lord. Thanks for your testimony and praise God for your salvation! I think that it should be a decision bathed in prayer and not just a hard lined policy one way or the other. It depends on the individual being considered and in many aspects, who can know their heart except for the Lord? That individual must submit their gifts to the authority of the Worship Leadership and not be a rock star or super star. The spotlight experience is inverted in leading worship... it is off of the band and on giving glory to God. If that person can find that balance, who knows, but the Holy Spirit may be using that to bring him or her to Christ. God bless and thanks for sharing!
T AN that is exactly what I was thinking when I saw this video pop up. I actually thought about it quite a bit while they were discussing this. I myself have always been a believer, but I went through quite a long period of not being plugged into a church or being strong in my faith. About a decade ago we started going to church, at first for our children, because I wanted them to be saved and have positivity in their lives. I have been a musician since I was a youth, and played the whole various scenes. I first got plugged into the audio team pretty quickly. Soon later I joined the worship team and it has helped me grow in my faith and increased my relationship with Jesus and our great Father. It has been such a blessing to my life and I think it can help non-believers, as long as they aren't the truly evil person as mentioned here; I think it could save more people and help them and their family as well. We are supposed to grow the flock and if it is through music, then I think it should be prayerfully entertained. Very good discussion. I appreciate the insight.
The first church, I were in, would do it so "Someone can play the instrument, tolerates the message, is qualified", but the church after this and the church I'm in says "Worship is related to have a relationship with God, so a person who doesn't follow Christ, isn't qualified".
It’s sad when a church has a band full of talented members but none of them have a profound relationship with God. It sounds so good, yet there’s nothing meaningful about it. And then you got to churches with 2 or 3 band members, who are also leaders at the church and are committed to living a life with Christ and it sounds ok but with great impact upon lives
That quote, "God does not use the person to complete the task, He uses the task to complete the person." Is so absolutely profound. Thank you for sharing that. I have seen that happen in our church. That's more than a worship team thing. That is a life thing.
19 years ago, I was a musician for 6-7 years and the church i was saved in had us wait 6 months before we served. They walked with me through discipleship so that when I served on the worship team, cleaning, or anything I was seasoned. I left to work for a ministry/bible school, when I moved back to town I was part of another church that did have non-saved worship team members. Both instances had people genuinely being saved, some thinking as long as 'I was doing ministry I was saved', and both had Christians who ended up leaving the church and following the passions of the world. To be honest I do believe we saw God move in different ways in both situations, but in a purely worship situation, I do believe that salvation and discipleship before service. The spiritual warfare associated with worship teams, I need my team's prayers (I pray for them too 😂), experience dealing with their walk with God, and sensitivity to the spirit of God to affect the music. I believe people get musical cues, but to consistently hear from the Lord, it's a different ballgame. No condemnation though, like I said, this is what I and my church believe.
This is a great conversation to have. As a pastor, I've run into just about ever scenario imaginable with musicians. I've had the musician that professed to be a believer that committed adultery numerous times. He went through counselling and restoration and continues to serve. I've also had the Christian musician that created more havoc than I can share. Then I've had the talented sympathizer who drew near for a season as we tried to lead him into a deeper relationship with Christ. Every situation is different and if you come into this conversation from just a spiritual perspective, you would be hard pressed to even contemplate the thought. On the other hand, I know of many churches that didn't have musicians, that ultimately paid an outsider (many times a non-believer) to play in their services. Even though some may be locked into a thought, not everyone or every church has the answer to this deep and important question. Thanks for starting the conversation, Pastor J
Good topic. If we look at scripture instead of rationalizing our own wants we see a clear answer. You have to ask what are we doing leading worship and who worshipped in the Bible. The purpose of our worship is to praise, glorify and exalt our King. A non believer can not intentionally do any of that. All is vanity outside of Gods grace. And when we see who worshipped God it was always His people. Yeah God can reach a non believer who is serving on a worship team but let’s not limit where God will go just by the power of our testimony.
Here's my take: I serve at a small church of 150-200 on Sunday mornings. In the small church environment, everyone in the church is required to play many roles. If I'm gone for emergent reasons, any member of the worship team could be asked to step up into the worship leader position. Also, at any moment if the pastor needs someone to step in and pray or guide someone spiritually, the whole of our worship team needs to be ready to do that or fill in as necessary leading. I don't think any of us would hire a nonchristian to lead worship for our church, so asking someone to be ready to step up to that position that isnt a Christian probably isn't a good idea either. (Similar to the US vice president position, if they don't qualify for president, they aren't allowed to be in that position where they could become president) Regardless, I really appreciate you guys addressing this and your ministry! Thanks for all you do!
Love you guys, but I strongly disagree and here's why: 1. Titus 1:5-9 gives the qualifications for a church elder and the bar is pretty high. Elders are not visible on a stage every Sunday, but the worship team is. Why wouldn't the bare minimum of being a Christian be a requirement for the worship team? Personally, I even require church membership to show a level of commitment to the church itself and to a shared doctrine. 2. The worship team is not a means of evangelism to lost team members. We are leading the congregation. We are are part of the church leadership, just like deacons and elders and Sunday school teachers. Would you also allow non-Christians to be Sunday school teachers or elders or deacons? Hiring an electrician to fix your church is different from the asking him to join your church leadership.
Thanks Jared. We are not saying that we feel it's OK for non-Christians to be a part of the team - we are suggesting that churches should consider each case individually through the lens of their ministry, their mission, values, etc. In fact Fuller even said there are not non-Christians on our team. At our church we have a covenant that we ask members to sign, and it involves faith in Christ and active membership, like being a part of a small group, etc. The electrician or parking lot ministry thing was just an example of something we struggle with. Again, the point of this video was to say that sometimes it's more complicated than yes/no, and each case should be carefully considered individually by church leadership. We do agree that when it comes to pastoral leadership, the Bible is very clear about who should be fulfilling it.
I hear ya, and definetly no hard feelings here. I am mainly reacting to personal experience where, when I was in college as a music major, I saw people who would curse God and mock Christianity in the practice halls on campus, but then would get hired to be music directors of churches and fill up the choir section as hired musicians for the local Methodist Church. I remember thinking to myself, "How could this church hire these guys as Choir directors and musicians and vocalists from the university music program who aren't even Christians??"
Hey Brian i dont think the illustration with the apostle Peter and king David (as far as being messed up ppl serving God, as we all are)is the case in that with both , there was an initial encounter with The Lord and a solid profession of faith in spite of later sinful actions (which i think is a different subject)
100% agree, Jared. I love the content on this channel, (you guys are fun to watch and very relatable, not to mention very knowledgeable when it comes to the practical elements of worship ministry) but this video is way off. Reading through the comments, I’m seeing my concern play out. The “yeas” are all presenting emotion-driven anecdotal reasons to say yes, while the “nays” are generally presenting intellect-driven factual THEOLOGICAL reasons to say no. The thing that bothers me most is that you guys are saying, “there is NO answer.” To make that statement is to say that no one, no where is capable of presenting a theological reason that proves it is not okay to have non-Christians on your worship team-because that would mean an objective no. Your stance excludes a “no” answer; however, by leaving the option open for a yes based on individual cases, your answer, by default, becomes “yes.” Even if it is a conditional yes, it is still a yes. Guys, it’s either yes or no. This is Christianity. We’re not discussing whether pizza is better than burritos (it is not), we’re discussing a topic which more than likely has a definitive answer because it deals with allowing non-Christians into an extremely visible role in our ministry. I know you said we’re not talking about some random person you met at WalMart, but usually a relative or friend, but allowing for a yes based on situation (situational ethics?) opens it up for the random WalMart person. One commenter said they invited an unsaved homeless person onto their worship team. Nothing against homeless people, and I would be glad to have a Spirit-filled homeless person play on my team, but this illustrates my point: by allowing the option for yes in certain situations (an extremely vague, wishy-washy stance) you allow for that option in ALL situations because every situation is unique and nuanced. If someone wants to bring an unsaved person into their team, they will rationalize a way to do it, so long as they believe it is not inherently wrong. Seriously, I just found you guys and I have really enjoyed your videos so far. This is a bump in the road, I’m sure, and I’ll keep watching, but I was disappointed to watch this one. If you would, I’d love to see you address Jared’a points directly instead of restating what you’ve already said. Together, his two points build a very solid case against allowing unsaved people to play/sing in WORSHIP teams. I’d like to see your responses. As always, I remain open to have my mind changed if stronger evidence to the contrary of my belief is presented.
I think another main problem is that once you put a person on a 'platform/team'... you are putting that person in a position of authority... and I say that as in being responsible as an 'example' for others to follow. Even if that person humbley denounces any actual authority... it is still an unsaid 'given' in that the Worship Team is a ministry...and being a ministry, their lives should live up to the standard of your church...and particularly the Bible. So think about what it means for that person NOT to be considered a Christian. And we must consider that a young person who looks up to this person's playing ability might very well want to emulate everything about this person... including whatever it is that has kept this person from 'being a Christian'. So in my humble opinion, the pew ... and in everyday life...is where we need to reach the lost... not on the platform. Encourage them in music at your home or when others get together at someones house to play... that will affect them... that is where the contact of love and kindness...and Grace... begins. And in considering the Apostles ...(look at Paul's past) ...or the Tax collector... Yet, each one had to have their own experience with Christ 'first' ...before anything was changed in their heart ...to then serve as 'the face of the Church' ...which is what you are when you get up in front of the congregation to lead them to worship for that service.
Personally, I think if we allow non-Christians to play on a worship team then it loses the significance of worship. God ministers through the musicians during worship, so to have someone that doesn't have or understand a heart of worship then it's pretty much a normal gig. Great topic guys! God bless
Valley Christian Center The main purpose of the music team is to bring the congregation closer to God. We have to put the congregation first, that's why we serve in the first place. We have pastors for a reason and God will minister through our pastors to a Non-believer.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think as long as the Leader is demonstrating the heart of worship, then the guitarist/drummer in the background doesn't necessarily take away from that. Those instruments provide plenty to the worship experience for others by having those musical elements than just having the leader on acoustic guitar (the way I lead our small youth group).
Jacob Morgan Actually, it's a lot different when you play in a big setting. Every Musician, worship leader and backing vocalist play a huge part in making the worship session a good one. If one person is slightly off, say spiritually, people can sense it.
At the end of the day, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. God works in a mysterious way at times and sometimes in situations where we least expect it but as long as it is a calling from God than we as believers should support it.
I've been in worship bands since 1972, so I've been around the block. While on a worship team in Las Vegas, we hired a brass section from the strip to be in our band. Within a few weeks they became believers and were on our team for many years after and they were an awesome addition! And just a reminder, Jesus's disciples weren't actually born again until after Jesus was resurrected, and He sent them out to declare the kingdom of God, to heal and cast out demons! WOW! Just be led by the Spirit!
Don't look for a grey area when there is no such area in the Kingdom of God. Let the one who has not openly professed Jesus the Christ as their savior sing from where they are with the congregation. The praise "team" should consist only of Spirit filled believers, who praise as we are called to"in spirit and in truth ". P&W is so much more than the music, it's the lifestyle of the believer. Black or white, no grey.
I see it similar - they are spiritual limited. About musical skills they wouldn't never hire a guitar player that can play 3 chords only. But in Germany the traditional churches have organ players who needs a special license - but doesn't care about following Jesus or relationship with God.
Thanks for broaching this subject, Brian! It should be a decision bathed in prayer and not just a hard lined policy one way or the other. That time in prayer should involve the whole Worship Team, allowing the Holy Spirit to impart wisdom and discernment. It depends on the individual being considered and in many aspects, who can know their heart except for the Lord? It must not be driven just because the person is a very good musician and the church is sadly lacking in such talent, which is all too common. That individual must be willing to submit their gifts to the authority of the Worship Leadership and be decisively not a rock star or super star. They must be informed as to these expectations in their interview and willing to be in agreement that the spotlight experience is inverted in leading worship... it is off of the band and directed only towards giving glory to God. They must not be in any way, form or fashion, a hindrance to the work of the Ministry. The slightest degree of rebellion can rip like a wildfire through the church, totally undermining the operation of the Holy Spirit. If that person can find that balance, who knows, but the Holy Spirit may be using the worship experience, the fellowship, the bonding and the beautiful music and lyrics to woo their heart to salvation in Jesus Christ. That is, after-all, our first purpose and highest priority, right? If it turns out that it is not working out, then the difficult task to release that member from the Worship Team must be embraced. Jesus said, "Pray the Lord of the Harvest to send out the laborers. The harvest is great, but the laborers are few."
When I first saw the "description" for this video and then hovered over the preview, I saw that it was nearly 20 minutes. I was like, "Really? It shouldn't take 20 minutes to say, 'no'." I get the viewpoint of leading that person TO a relationship with God through Christ, but, I don't find it compelling. As others have very eloquently stated, a spot on the worship team is a congregational leadership position (that should help anybody who gets bent out of shape over the term "church" leadership) whether it is the person who selects and sings all of or the vast majority of the songs or the person who plays the triangle. Regardless of the talent of the person or the need of the worship team (as in, we really NEED a piano player, and Joe has been playing bars for the past 20 years, so...) "non-Christian" should be a non-starter. I also get the statement about how a lot of unsaved people "act" better than a lot of Christians. But, at the end of the day, there is gonna be a lot of "good" people in Hell, so, "good" shouldn't be the standard. I also realize that some of this may come off as a little course and even a little self-righteous, and that's not what I'm trying to do here. That sort of thing irritates me to no end. But, I'm trying to be as short-winded as possible. Otherwise, one could, in theory, spend 20 minutes watching the video and another 20 reading my comment ;)
I got saved by being a non-christian using my skills as a guitarist on a Worship Team10 years ago. Now I'm the Worship Leader of Cornerstone Community Church in Milton Vermont and we are growing faster than I can keep up with (That is not a problem, it's Gods will).
That is awesome - thanks for sharing, Cletus! I think many people who are involved in worship ministry can trace back to someone in the church investing in them before their faith was fully mature.
While I’m glad you came to Christ it’s by pure grace alone that any of us are come to Christ I was brought to church and stayed in church because of lust that doesn’t mean it’s the right way it just means that God works providentially thru even our sin and lack of obedience.
About 9 years ago i was heavy into witch craft. One day my my sister and soon to be brother in-law invited me to play guitar for there church . And well music is my life so of course i said yes. And with in 9 month of playing with the church and becoming part of the family God called me home and was baptized . Now im taking on the roll of worship leader . Looking back at my transformation i am so blessed to be apart of a church who follows the teaching of Jesus and not judge anyone but chooses to show love.
I am a pastor and I struggle with this. I have allowed it in the past with this distinction: I allowed a non believing instrumentalist but not a non believing vocalist. But I been embarrassed as often on social media by the actions of my believers as the unbelievers.
Thanks for sharing Randy. You bring up a good point regarding social media. The people on our stages represent our church - they are the faces people see and associate with us. You also bring up another great point - I've seen plenty of professing Christians embarrass themselves (and their churches) with their actions on social media and elsewhere as well. Thank God for grace :)
But that's when the Pastor goes to that person and talks to them about what they are seeing on social media...if he/she repents and stops... it's a learning point... if not... they need to sit down from service until they can be restored.
and that's not 'judging; ...that's 'teaching' what God requires of us on social media or in person...face to face. We all have to learn and sometimes that learning is from our mistakes being pointed out... right?
I started playing in a youth band 15 plus years ago at a church. I considered myself a Christian at the time, but did not have a heart for worship and did not have a relationship with Jesus like I feel like I have now. I truly believe that allowing me to serve in the worship team DID help with my struggles and help me get through everything that I have. These guys pointed out that even people who followed Christ screwed up and fell short. You never know the people who you let serve may be going through or struggling with, Christian or not, and how being part of a team of fellow believers and worshipers can put you in a position to draw closer or even find Jesus for the first time. Just my 2 cents.
Started playing in my small church before being baptised and have to say it gave me a reason to come to church at least twice a week and spend time with brothers in the faith that showed me their faith through patience with me and the gifts of the holy spirit while singing songs that took me a while to connect with the lyrics instead but eventually was leading every once in a while. Its a beautiful thing when people are shown Gods love rather than just told about it. Any chance to let people "get a chance to play" (vineyard speak) is great. Thanks for tackling some of the harder issues! Great video
Serving in worship ministries is some of the most wonderful as well as the most hurtful experiences around but few Christians dare to speak up on this since many churches would label you “negative and unspiritual”. It is one of the most hypocritical traps for many Christians in the worship ministry to start labeling people as though they were “superior” to others. It can encourage cliques and double-standards/favoritism. Speaking from my own experiences, I was allowed to play guitar at age 15 in Christian retreats when I was still an agnostic but have gave my life to Christ a year or two later. Also, I let this one guy play guitar in a nightly retreat entertainment that was a fantastic guitar player. He was a non-believer and indifferent to the gospel at the time. I come to be his friend and we became closest friends to this day as he shared with me much guitar techniques. After many years of witnessing to him which took more than 10 years, he finally gave his life to Christ and decades later, he lead his elderly mother to the Lord. He is one of the top lead guitarist in a sizable church in a large city for the past decade and has blessed many a younger crowd with his music ministry. Who is to say he can’t be involved because someone in leadership determines he can’t be a worship musician? It is true that churches would let many do hard unglamorous work in a heart beat but not allow same person to be in any spotlight on stage. I am not saying that we must always allow non-Christians be in worship teams but I also seen Christians that have been up there with teams and hurt people in spite of talent. Christians....open your eyes and determine what Jesus would have done in the same circumstances. He was more concerned with getting people into His Kingdom by telling the disciples the most important person is the servant of the other and will do it unto to least of these. What kind of light are we to the world and if they see us, will they see Christ?
My take on it is this: No. With one exception I will later touch upon. It’s a simple as this to me: Should a non-Christian join your worship team? Worship team. The goal of the worship team, band, group is to worship. To worship God. A non-Christian would be part of a group that is serving the purpose of glorifying God, praising God, worshipping and adoring God with their talents, gifts, and abilities. But they wouldn’t be fulfilling their own purpose as part of the group. They may be talented, and gifted, and highly skilled, but if you’re not using those gifts to worship God, for his glory, then you’re in the group for the wrong reason. Now, as for the exception. Maybe a non-Christian joining the worship team could bring them closer to God. God may have planned for them to come to him through the band. I don’t know, we don’t know. I doubt even the person trying to join knows. At my church, the requirements to join the band are that one has to have been an active member for the past 6 months in good standing. We haven’t had any “non-Christians”- I guess that either means secular or those who haven’t accepted salvation - ask to join but we did have a new member who we do allow to practice with us and learn the songs until he is baptized and becomes a member of the church. I don’t think it’s legalistic or exclusivity, but rather the church doing its part to ensure every one serving God is actually serving God.
thats true fren.because in our church too .Some of friends of worship team, have n't known Jesus well but when they continue to worship.time came God change their heart and made them as true worshiper. i can 't judge but if non-christain want to worship him and serve we can't stop because God will touch him/her and bless him/her
So even if they are a Christian they need to be a "church member" for 6 months? From a biblical perspective they're a church member from the day of their conversion. The concept of "church membership" is a modern day construct. Of course you can do what you want :-) IMHO facts and circumstances need to come into play. If they are a solid Christians (and have been for a while ) and meet your other standards for the worship team then maybe some consideration should be given as long as they indicate a commitment to your team.
I get what you say, but maybe what his church's reason for that person to be a regular church goer for 6 months is that they would like to know the character and the spiritual maturity of that person before they would accept him/her to the team.
Do not ask us bro. The Holy Spirit should be the senior pastor of every church. Ask the Holy Spirit. I know that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the right steps in dealing with the situation. :)
I know this is a very polarizing topic to cover and I think you guys did a really good job. We had a guy on our worship team that would come to church with alcohol on his breath but was a great bassist. After discussion with the worship leader and our pastor they still decided to keep him on the team. He didn't cause any disruption to the service, he was just very closed off from interaction and worship. Fast forward 6 months and he had a breakthrough moment with God and gave up alcohol completely and has never looked back. He now still serves on our worship team and is a great mentor and friend. You can now see the spirit of worship within him. He said that the church accepting him where he was at in the time of his darkest days was pivotal in his transformation. All this to say I think we should use sound judgment when accepting someone into the worship team dynamic, but we need to meet people where they are and not where we think they should be.
Excellent topic guys! I'm leading worship this Sunday. I been a Christian for the past 3 years only by the grace of God. Was led in the church where division was happening when we joined, but that didn't really bother us since our focus was God. Then I became a deacon by the nomination of the congregation after a year. Then was asked to worship lead... what I'm saying is this: for me, my main focus was always God, and I would ask Him to guide me, and use me. If it's his plan, he will and no one can stop him. Recently we merged with other church and we all had to step down, and again I just prayed, Lord use me, and now after just 4 months I'm asked to lead the worship this Sunday for the first time. To me, God is in control and as much as you wanna be up there on the stage serving God you can also serve him in the crowds, and the good thing about this is that I have learned to be humble, so I let those people who are in charge make the decision. I think if a person is really willing to serve God then he must be willing to submit to those in authority.
In my eyes my entire worship team are worship leaders as well. They lead the way to the throne-room and he equips the ones who are called and submit to him. We've had talented people want to join our team and we've asked them hey how about you come to our church a few weeks and get acclimated and make sure you're supposed to be here and this is where the Lord has called you to serve and 90% of the time they never make it past week one. Do we want to kick them out to the street? Of course not but even Jesus told the man who wanted to follow him hey sell all your possessions and follow me. Its about making sure that someone from the nursery workers to the lot attendants to the security team is here to serve the Lord and not themselves. We allow struggling people to be on our worship team because they are committed to the Lord, to the Church and to the team but we don't just let anyone come on board. That is my answer I too could be wrong.
I have several people in the church band that are not christian, i'm from a small town where none of the churches have bands, they all have dvd worship, but i lead worship as the worship pastor in a church here and i have non Christians in the band because without them its just me and my acoustic guitar, but here's the thing, the music is legit amazing, because allot of times non Christians are far more professional, Christians turn up late, they don't care, these guys treat church worship with a zeal I've never seen in Christians. and the thing is, we do free worship, like bethel spontaneous stuff, and its sooooo amazing, and the spirit does amazing things, ty for the video guys.
I have had many discussions with friends about this topic and I think this is where I fall on the topic. We call them worship leaders and so as a leadership group, we have agreed that non-Christians couldn't understand how to lead in worship. I don't mean that to sound judgemental but we throw the word "Worship leaders" rather easily and if we don't really mean that term, we shouldn't use it. We have had people come and "preach" in our pulpit who weren't pastors but would we ever use a non-Christian to do so? So this is where we arrived. I have invited people to special "jam" times who weren't Christians but the purpose was always fun, fellowship and building relationships.
Agree soooo much! Specially with the jam time as creative ministering opportunity. We need to come before the presence of God with our Whole heart surrendered to His will and nothing less. If we then allow a Non-believer lead in worship on stage in front of the congregation there's dangers that would rise even in the congregation itself as looking for Christian examples in those who are in the labor of serving God's holy church. We have to always think about that as well. If we are on a stage leading people to Christ everyone becomes a leader in their area.
Thanks for sharing. I have lived in small rural communities most of my life, and if it wasn’t for the odd non christian musician who just wanted to play music we would not have had any music. Best of all some of them came to faith, and went on to use their gifts in other churches as worship leaders.
In my experience, I joined my church's worship team with thoughts and intentions of self glory. At that point in time I was young in faith and I'm also a musician so that's what I had thought. However my plans of achieving self glory were quickly shut down as I didn't get the so called results that I'd desired. Eventually I saw serving as a burden. However as time passed on I had been convicted by the songs that we were singing and I just found that serving God and worshipping Him had brought me great joy and praising His name had given me much more satisfaction than self glory could ever have gotten me. Fast forward to the present, currently I'm a worship leader still trying to improve on serving God's people and putting God first. But funny enough I'm now trying to show others in the team the importance of serving and how great it is to praise His name. God doesn't use us to complete a task, He uses the task to complete us.
I feel the point of music in a church is to stir up people’s emotions, or to get them feeling a certain way with the Lord. How can the people playing the music get people excited about God when they themselves aren’t saved. So, the answer is no, if you’re not a Christian then you shouldn’t be on a worship team. churches nowadays try more to please people more-so than please God. So many churches have drifted so far from God. Very rarely do you actually find one that does things the right way.
I lead worship at a small church where our worship team is a rotation of about 5-8 people, we were in need of an electric guitarist and one of our members has a weekly food truck outreach where we fellowship and feed with the homeless here in Miami. We played some worship songs while our friends were in line for the food one week when one of the guys in line, asked if he could jam with us. He started playing with us and immediately caught on and started soloing in instrumental sections and so forth. We were talking with him after food had been distributed and we found out he’s played guitar for about 30 years and was struggling with homelessness, however he hadn’t been able to play recently cause he was paying off a pawn shop to hold his equipment with the governmental aid he was receiving. We offered to hold his equipment for him and gave him the opportunity to play with us on sundays, he declined each time for awhile, but after a few months of connecting with him weekly at the truck stops, he accepted our invitation and has now been part of our worship team every week for 3 years. He’s not a Christian but I do believe we’re sowing seeds every week. We’ve shown grace when he’s shown up to play under the influence and asked him to not play that day, but invited him back the following. It’s a gradual process, but seeing him be excited to play every week and now be at the point where he’s giving us feedback on songs he thinks we should play, or different ways we could play a song is a blessing. That’s the personal testimony from a little church in Miami, but it’s a big and beautiful testimony! Shalom guys!
I appreciate you bringing this up. In our church, we once allowed a non-believer to play as a guitarist on our band. This was to make the non-believer closer to church and maybe he could have a genuine relationship with Christ. At first we were okay with it up as time goes by, it seems that during sundays when we guide the congregation to worship, all of us with the exception of the non-believer, felt that there was really something wrong. The congregation's worship seemed to be dry and then the message of God through our pastor had no impact on the lives of the people. It went for a month until we decided to make him rest from playing and that next Sunday, we had a great moving of the Holy Spirit. Everyone was worshiping and crying. Everyone was on their knees. I mean you could really feel that the songs that we played was having an impact in the their lives. After that, we decided to disallow non-believers to play in our church. We as a team made our own standard that even how talented a person could be, his spiritual life was more important. We believe that ones relationship with Christ is what makes our worship as a team powerful and makes the Word of God, that is preached by the pastor, impact the life of the listener more directly. We do not want to be legalistic but we believe that bringing a non-believer to play any instrument or even sing in front during worship time contaminates the songs that we sing. That is why we have not compromised any position of our team, no matter how desperate the situation is, we do not give in. Rather, if a non-believer is interested, we let him go through our cell groups and we guide, access and walk with him/her to make sure that she is spiritually ready and pure to lead the congregation. Now me speaking personally, I believe that they should not play in the team. For Paul says that what do we believers of Christ have in common with people who are non-believers. We are called to be a peculiar people, unwavering and uncompromising in our decisions. I love non-believers and I pray that their hearts would open to the Word of God and change their lives. I would give my life for them in an instant. But I must draw a line especially regarding the matters of the church.
When I was a teenager in our worship team I had several school friends who were keen to play, but it was aggressively opposed by some of the other members. At the time I remember the explanation was "we wouldn't let a non-christian pray over us either." I was really unhappy with the way it was handled and it left me feeling "Who are you to judge who is christian enough?" My friends were put off coming to the church. My friends had more grace than some of the church members! God can work with anyone and anything they bring to the table - we are all imperfect.
Here's my story. I visited the church I attend now 22 years ago. I was a non-believer. I was a generally good guy, but didn't know Jesus. On my second visit I bumped into a family friend at that service and she knew I played music. The praise team at the time did not have a drummer. When they found out I had a set of drums, they immediately invited me to play. I acquiesced and brought my drums. I am a guitar player who could keep a beat. So I played. I'm not the kind of person who likes to let others down, so missing church for no reason was not an option. I wasn't going to be with Jesus, I was going to be there for the praise team. I had a responsibility and didn't want to let them down. Eventually as i attended I learned more about Christ and accepted Him into my heart. I also eventually moved to guitar. My point is playing on the praise team is what brought me to Jesus. Had I just been an attender, it would have been much easier to be lazy and stay home on Sunday. It worked in my story, but I think each individual's experience is going to be different. P.S. now I lead worship at a sister church (different time) in addition to playing guitar on the praise team. Giving a non-believer a reason to show up every week is not the worst idea in the world.
I have watched several of your videos and there is always something that speaks to me. One of the things I like is the way you both keep it real by putting in so humor; on occasion downright cutting up. God bless you both and God bless the worship we intend to bring Him.
As a senior pastor, the issue is about the place of, and motivation for, service. I believe only the saved can serve God in the church. Otherwise, the issue of "salvation by works" confuses the unsaved into believing they're "okay" with God.
Thanks for talking about it. As a team leader and media director. I found this very helpful. I will definitely try it. I’m sure God will pour in His spirit and anoint the worship. I always think about this . He used a Donkey to carrying Him through, donkey wasn’t holy or saved and Jesus used him. He’s using me I’ll definitely bring someone in for a “gig” or volunteer work when need it. So far I’ve experience that. No one can’t just gets close to God and not get changed. So. There. Blessings y’all
While on the surface, this question seems pretty simple, it can actually be very complicated. Obviously, the church should be led by people who profess faith in Christ, but many worship leaders and churches have struggled with this topic. While we do not claim to have a definitive answer, we do feel it's a little more complex than simply yes or no. Please watch the video before commenting to see where we're coming from on this one. Also please do not assume that we are saying, "Yes, you should allow non-Christians on your worship team". That is not what we are trying to communicate with this video.
Eli Sanchez perhaps we should say “who exemplify more Christian values” There are very moral people who do not profess faith in Christ, and there are people who profess faith in Christ who’s lives don’t reflect it. That’s what we were saying.
Brian Couldn't agree more with you on that point. I guess its all the more reason to not stop at a mere profession of faith in Christ but also fruit of the Spirit. Years ago i was a worsip leader amd had a guy that wasnt saved on the team and another guy that was saved but with a horrible attitude....guess who got reprimanded more often? Btw great work with your channel God bless
That was really a helpful video you got there! It helped me get rid of a huge barrier in my mind. When I initially read the caption of the video and began watching it, in my mind the scripture portion from Deuteronomy 22:10 was running “Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together” Keeping in mind the portion from 2 Corinthians 6:14 “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? It was nice to have a different view about the topic that I wrestled with a long time ago. Thanks! Good job done in summarising the entire thing, hoping and praying that you will bring in more topics such as these in the near future!
I agree that there may be special circumstances when you might want to ask a non-Christian to be part of your music ministry. But there have been recent cases where some large ministries have shown a shocking lack of discernment, especially in the area of video production. Like the official lyric video for _This is Amazing Grace_ that has a hidden Baphomet image in it. And just last week, Hillsong Young & Free released their video for _Peace_ where an actress is wearing shorts so tight that you can see things only her husband and gynecologist should look at. Seriously-this so-called Christian video is showing actual "camel toe". I can only guess that these failures are the result of ministries bringing in secular artists and giving them creative control.
Yes or No.... I've had several musicians who aren't christians who came to a relationship with with Jesus because they served on the worship team.. I've also had some "christians" who walked away from the faith while on the worship team... God is bigger than we are.. His spirit also leads us to make great decisions..
Thank you for sharing this video! This was the exact answer I needed. I just started building a worship team and my drummer is an atheist. Please pray for him his name is Aaron. He has been faithfully committed in playing with us for the past two months and some of the leaders wanted to get rid of them based on his beliefs. I felt the Lord wanted him to be a part of the community as a musician. Your video has got everyone on the same page so I thank you for that and Aaron will continue to have a position on the team!
Hey Fuller, long time. Thanks for making a video on such a tough topic and tackling it with such care. We've had the same struggles at my current church. The somewhat controversial compromise we've reached is that non christians are allowed to serve, not just in the worship ministry but in any area of the church EXCEPT leadership positions. You don't have to be a Christian to make coffee, park cars, or check families into kids ministry, BUT you do if you are a leader or a ministry coach in those areas. How that applies on worship team is that non christians are welcome on Tech Team (running sound, cameras, video, or pro presenter) and onstage in the band, but because vocalists are declaring God’s word through song (and basically singing the scripture) that is considered a leader position because they are leading people in worship in a way that is fundamentally different from playing an instrument or moving a slider. Not everyone agrees with this policy, and (as you said) an argument can be made for multiple perspectives on the issue, but this is what we’ve come to. Just thought I’d share our policy. Like you said, there is likely no universal answer on this, and each church needs to find the best practice for their congregation. Thanks for the great content on the channel, and hope your family is well. Catch you next time.
I literally stumbled across this channel like half an hour ago, due to a tech question. And as I'm exploring I found this video, which funnily enough explains the situation I'm currently in. I'm attending church with my fiancée for a couple of years now, she is christian, I'm not. At least not really. I'm doubting a lot and I can somewhat relate to God but not to Jesus. However, so many people I met that are believers made me wondering. After 23 years of not being a musician (which is a pity by the way), I started playing guitar last year, learning it by myself. So at first I needed some easy songs for me to play along that I knew well enough and that's where worship songs came into play. Basically I took a couple of books from my fiancée and started playing them all. And naturally after a while you want to play together with other people. So I considered joining the worship team of my fiancée and talked with the team leader. At first she was not really comfortable with the idea, but after a while she reconsidered and came to the conclusion that it might be God's way for me to him. Long story short: After playing with them a couple of times in our church service, I don't want to miss it anymore. It is the most important way for me to get a personal relation to faith, God and Jesus, although I wouldn't consider myself a christian. It's my way to explore I'd say. Hopefully I did not incorporate too many mistakes in my text, since it's already late and English is only my secondary language.
Friend today you could die and go to hell. You must be born again. Playing in some kind of worship group is not the way to a relationship with God, Jesus is the way to God. You must be born again. John 3:3, 5, 7. God loves you.
A thought just came to me after the closing comments: We need to be open to the idea that God may choose someone we didn't expect, to be used in ways we didn't expect.
For me I stand on a leadership aspect. As a leader in the church you should lead by example in the morals of your life. However, you guys really made me think about this, thank you
Thank you for raising this topic. I have heard testimony, that a young guy was playing in pentecostal church worship team even before he got saved. Today that guy is completely devoted to God and ministry. People say-always there can be an exception... Even if we are not slaves of the law, Jesus did not cancel commandments and the law. And law shows, what God likes: faith, holiness,truth. And about ministries God has been very precise. So none of the levites ministering in temple could be someone outside His nation. That means-no nonbelievers in worship team. And I believe, most will agree, that even with believers, there are own struggles and issues to cope with. On other hand-there should be a difference between ministries- like one, that requires a certain skill like electric or car shop specialist, carpenter etc. As I see, Solomon building the Temple invited the most talented and skilled craftsmen of that time, and they were from other nations. So technical skills could be also some exceptions. Relating to music ministry, as preparing some special music, not necessary worship program, might be involved some skilled professionals, but still, we need to filtrate, whom we invite-extremes would not work here also. We need to keep in mind, that we, the church, should be His sweet perfume. What is good, righteous and holy. I believe God has intended church to be self sufficient. I have experienced "amateur" christians doing a rock operas and hired "professionals". And I can say one for sure-the professionals did well and nice, but the anointing was much thicker on devotion and love of the amateurs. That is how I felt it. Thank you for the broadcasts. God bless!
I'm personally not religious but my all time favorite musical experience was serving as a guitar player on a worship team. Although I don't believe the content, I really loved to bring others who do believe closer to their god. It's an amazing feeling to see someone crying of joy because of the music. Being the vessel of that joy meant a lot to me religious or not. I loved it and I will always look for an open guitar spot on a worship team when I want to join a band.
I hope you won't mind me making another comment. I am not qualified to be a worship leader, none of us are. We could never qualify ourselves (although I personally believe that we can disqualify ourselves for some positions but that is another discussion). I think it's important to always remember that because it humbles me that God would choose to use me in such a way because I don't deserve it and can't earn it. I appreciate your asking the question because we should always be willing to have the discussion. I "settled" this for myself a long time ago but I have had countless discussions with others about this very topic. And I listened even though in the end we still didn't come to agreement. But I believe the discussion is worth having. Perhaps some haven't considered the issue but even more so, there is nothing to be afraid of in having a discussion. Some might say "this is so basic" but this is exactly the method that Jesus used to teach. I had a mentor who told me once, "Never teach someone something that you can help them discover for themselves." When I worked with youth, I shied from trying to tell them what to believe but tried to help grow them to discover God, His Word and the application of His Word to their own lives. I think it's worth having the discussion for our sakes and for others. One of the things I have learned in years of ministry and walking with Christ is I have a lot more to learn and I am don't look as much like Christ as I thought I was years ago. The closer I get to Christ the more I see how I need to grow to be like Him. I say that to say, thanks for asking a difficult question that probably got some terse answers. It's worth the asking!
WT, I have always enjoyed your channel for many years now and my question is in past couple of videos you have talked about how auditioning and how a person needs to be qualified “talented” to be part of the worship team at your church. But it would seem to me that the first qualification isn’t how great a person can shred on their guitar, or play drums or sing on perfect pitch. The first qualification should be do they have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Without that they are singing and playing for something that don’t even know and how can they LEAD others into what they have never experienced. In our heart especially with our friends we want to believe that by allowing them to serve that the Holy Spirit will speak to them and that is commendable, we all want people especially those we love to come and know the Lord, but is it the Lord that is drawing them or just music. Music is powerful and for those of us who like to play even more so. I had a very similar issue with my own daughter and I had to make the hard decision to ask her to step down when she stated that she no longer believed. Bottom line is the answer while difficult to hear is clearly is No. Jam with them outside of the church even with worship type music and witness to them.
Hey James, the audition video was more focused on "talent and excellence", this one is clearly a spiritual question. They are definitely separate topics, however, holistically, both must be evaluated before allowing someone on your team. It all comes down to each ministries expectations and values.
So late, but like they said, where do you draw the line? Are they allowed to serve in the parking? As greeters? As anything else? We’re not just talking music in the end. Serving in the church is done in the body of Christ, so it includes all aspect.
I'm in the "We are all worship leaders" camp, especially if we're on stage, and you have to have been coming to our church regularly for six months before taking up ANY role, so we wouldn't be having non-Christians on the team. But I get that others have different stands, and I hope that works for them.
Dudes- Ben Forehand! Have you heard his testimony? His testimony episode on the Worship Online Podcast left me in tears. He took a church gig as a non-believer. The rest is how God does what he does....
This is something I am currently wrestling hard with. I, right now, have decided the answer for me and my team is no. Just because there is no Biblical example or precedent for an unbeliever helping lead Israel or the Body in worship. I don't think I can tell my team "You are worship leaders" in the same breath say "You don't have to be a Christian." But I totally get the very missional opportunity that having unbelievers on the team can provide.
Guess the big thing with non believers in a worship team, is the fear of them worshipping the music instead of God. If you are a none believer, yet humble and respectful of a church and its members, and are not in it to just be known for playing so amazingly. Maybe just do a heart check with someone :) Because I know there can be hardcore christians out there who pretend to be in it for Jesus but their heart is full of pride and selfishness.
I think that God's love described in English words, or any words for that matter is really hard to explain. A lot things that God does for the sake of loving us do not make sense to us. I know that it's all intentional for Him. This song as a whole, tells us that God loves us more than we can understand or describe, and quite frankly sometimes his love for us doesn't make sense. At the end of the day when I here this song I think "God loves me more than I will ever know." We I was his foe, still he fought for me. When I was a sinner he died for me. I think anyone who hears this song comes closer to understanding that. I think that's a win for this song. At the end of the day we waste a lot of time debating one word. I wish sometimes we focused more attention and more of our voice on bigger issues in this world, like injustice, poverty and racism, instead of debating about 1 word in a worship song. I just realized I spent 10 min writing this comment. I hope it wasn't a waste either.
Hey guys! Thank you for this video! My story is VERY similar to what you shared. I’m a worship leader and I was really struggling about a year ago to welcome a high schooler onto my church’s youth worship team. At that point, I knew him, but I hadn’t seen him at youth group or church consistently in years and it seemed like he would only be coming back to youth because he’d be able to play an instrument. I had no way of knowing if he was a follower at this point in his life and I didn’t even know who he really was at this time. I wrestled with this decision and I was talking to the youth pastor and he encouraged me to welcome him in after I prayed about it because it would help him come consistently and, God willing, it would allow the Holy Spirit to move in him, but I saw him playing cajon as just a reason to make him come to youth group when he should want to come to grow in his relationship with Christ. After praying, I welcomed him onto the team and he has been coming every single week to youth group, joyfully serving, and growing deeply in his faith and even reaching out to his other friends to come to youth. I recorded his testimony months ago and he saw that experience of coming onto the worship team as a monumental point in his faith.
I was in a pretty unique situation. I came to church because I wanted to believe in God becuase I felt His presence before, but I struggled with faith and I hadn't given my life to Jesus at that point in time. I was asked to serve the third time i went there because the keys player couldn't make it. I've since believed in Jesus, given my life to Him and while becoming part of the team didn't suddenly make me christian it sure helped in the process. EDIT: It was for our church's youth group. Main church wouldn't allow that.
I feel that praise and worship in the church is a ministry for the Lord first and should be presented holy unto the Lord. However, I do feel, if they have an open heart, you could take them to practice with you and maybe let them play a song or too as to create a friendship but the team should be Holy unto the Lord I feel. But God bless you guys for sure!!
I'm a worship leader and the standard for any platform ministry is 1. Salvation is mandatory 2. Come to church 6 months. Platform ministry should be held to higher standards then a member because people can misrepresent your church and God can damage other new comers and older converts in the church. Talent is second to these standards. Platform ministry is different then serving as a volunteer. So we love to evolve new comers and nonbelievers in volunteer service and the standard for platform ministry is a little higher.
I highly disagree with this.. why on earth would any pastor want a agnostic atheist playing any instrument on their worship team?! It’s not about being judgmental.. it’s more about the spirit leading the congregation and if there’s one person that isn’t in it for the same purpose of leading what other reason are they up there for? Especially if you are against God completely
I personally would have no problem with non-christians being on a praise team. As long as the one(s) who are leading the praise team are believers then I'd have no problem with non-christians in supporting roles in the praise band.
But there are two things I could notice in a band accepting non-Christian band members. When they pray before the service, the non Christians may drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, whatever. And the non Christians can't follow, when the band walks into God's office.
Hi guys. Good topic. I believe in reaching out to the lost. Be creative and draw in those unsaved musicians and artists. Create places and times to interact with them and show them the love of God. Have jam sessions and artists evenings. You don't need to put that person in your worship team to do that.
As I watched this video (the day it came out(I wanted to think some about it before responding ) ), I saw another of your videos on the side bar about auditions. Let's say a guy comes to your audition and loves Jesus, but has no sense of rhythm, and can't carry a tune. Are you going to hesitate in judging his ability? Isn't his relationship with Christ more important than his musical ability? Perhaps a compromise: how about allowing people to sit in on practices and jam sessions but not actually lead in worship? Couldn't you mentor them in either deficiency? Paul talks about not giving new Christians positions of authority so that it doesn't go to their head and cause them to stumble. If that's how he feels about new Christians, I'm thinking non-Christians are right out. So maybe your practice times can serve the double purpose of outreach, but worship is worship, you know?!? Thank you for stepping out on this and inviting this conversation.
Hi Ian From South Africa. I am a beginner guitar player that serves on our worship team at church. I believe that worship is a ministry where we seek God to move among us with our praise and worship. I also believe that worship goes hand in hand with the prophetic gift. So I believe that one should be a Christian to serve on worship team. I do however believe that I should work hard at improving my guitar skills so that I can worship more while playing guitar.
Meanwhile I lead a worship band and put this topic in our WhatsApp group and one person disagreed and our pastor has to say "of course, Christians should be in the worship band" and the person who disagreed with me could say yes. When I asked the person to this, he says, I would exclude Christians, when I speak about reborn ones.
the answer is no. Can't lead someone where you aren't or havent been. anyone on stage is a worship leader, leading worship. pointing to God. Also have to think what theyre doing off stage to reflect the ministry. "Oh you play for so and so church and youre an atheist? must not be a good church if even their leadership doesnt believe in Christ."
point still stands for non believers. "oh so youre a leader at so and so church and you don't know if you believe in God or what you believe in? Must not be a good church where the Holy Spirit is active."
"Oh, so you're a leader at so and so church and say you believe in God; yet, you're out here doing the very things that people who do not believe in God are doing..." People who profess Christ, yet live a life that doesn't resemble Christ in the slightest way, do more damage to the cause, then allowing a non-Christian to play in the band, imo. This is where we need to be careful. A good point was brought up in the video: for the person who is "on the edge," considering following Christ; will allowing them to play, help them be drawn to Jesus? The person who is a believer (or claims to be), on the worship team, yet living a life that is contradictory to what they say...are they drawing people to Jesus? Maybe, just maybe, the response from someone for the church allowing a person who is not a believer, to play, would be, "Wow, you're not sure what you believe, and they're letting you play? Sounds like they're not judgmental. Maybe I'll come and hear you play sometime." While caution should be exercised, I believe God can use a situation like this to show his love to someone, through those in church and on the worship team, and be drawn to him. Each church should make their own decision on these kinds of things, with the leading of the Holy Spirit.
"anyone on stage is a leader" This is an opinion. There is no blueprint in the Bible that says how and who can take part in a modern worship team. We like to start with a biblical principal, take it down a logic chain and treat the outcome with the same authority as the original biblical point we started from. The Bible says 'A' so, logically, 'B' must be true as well. And if 'A' leads to 'B', then 'C' must be the truth as too... and so on, and so on. The next thing you know we are teaching 'W' as biblical truth, even though the Bible says nothing about 'W'. I think the leader is the leader, the rest of the team is supporting him, and a non-believer can still support the leader. God can still move through anyone who is not trying to actively work against him. As far as the 'optics' of having a non-believer on the worship team, who cares what other people think. We're talking about worship, not politics.
@@Mravobike The person doesn't follow Jesus Christ, isn't saved. As long, the person doesn't turn to Jesus, it doesn't help, when she or he plays the instrument, serves in the church and so on. This doesn't save. In German we have the saying "To preach water and to drink wine", what means preach something and not to do it. One leads many people closer to God, but not himself, how should this work?
The last weeks I found two announcements in my city, where worship teams look for musicians and when I asked "Is this for Christians only" they replied "No, you have not to be Christian"...
You guys need to switch places! Lol Thanks for the conversation. We never know the hearts of others or how God is working in their lives. Hey serving by playing gets that individual in church every Sunday and in unity with believers!
I’m 79, recently retired chiropractor after 55 years, and wanting to have another praise and worship team for our church after previous team 20 years ago. I play alto sax, some vocal and rhythm guitar. Previous group had Wednesday evening programs drawing 100 youth, of which 50 would attend Sunday worship. Our leader became a a pastor and moved on. The program eventually failed to be supported and was discontinued. I felt I could bring back a really quality team, one supported by the current pastor and the aging congregation, many of whom just want traditional. We are in SW OKLAHOMA, an old church with challenges, so church growth and attracting youth are very important from my view. I am not real skilled with internet, and I play mostly by ear since 1960 with multiple rock, R&B, country, contemporary christian, gospel. At any rate, after watching your videos I since my learning curve is quite steep. So, any other suggestions you may have for this middle aged guy would be helpful. Any way, thanks for what you have contributed to the christian community and may God continue to bless you and the lives you touch. Fred Phillips, DC.
Hey guys! I think this is a great question. I was that kid. Complete non-believer didnt know this God guy and this Jesus dude. Starting off, I'm a vocalist. But, I started gaining interest in drums through middle school. Fast forward to my mom finding me a drum kit. I had NOWHERE to play it. But the church down the street needed a drum kit and I had one so I ended up playing drums at the church cause they desperately needed one. No audition, the worship leader knew I was a trouble maker, pot smoker. There once was conflict with some members that I was not a believer and that I shouldn't be on the team, but I heard that a gentleman cut that tention in half saying, "Sure he may not be a believer. But, God put him here with us. He could be anywhere else, yet he is right here WITH US! Is it not cool to see how God is working in him?" Fast forward to Now. I've been involved with a wonderful young church. With AMAZING people. I'm locked in the music ministry. I've played drums, percussion, lead/backup vocal, lighting, sound guy and somehow now I'm the bass player as of right now. God has been working on/in me since I was 11. And I didnt truly find him and realize him working in me until I was 18. I'm 23. I'm very thankful for that one man who gave me a chance to serve. I attend Harbor Church on Cape cod in Massachusetts. Couldn't be happier. That's my story. Thanks for letting me share it!
For all the “no”s out there please remember the great things God can do through anyone. When Jacob was beaten and left for dead remember it was the Ishmaelites that brought him to Egypt from the brink of death. God can work in mysterious ways. We should pray for discernment in our decisions. Every situation is different.
Uh...what? Do you mean Joseph sold by the Ishmaelites into slavery in Egypt or the parable of the good Samaritan or are you referring to some story not in the Bible?
I agree with many of the comments that I have read here. Worship is the root of the worship team. Those who worship the father must worship Him in spirit and in truth. An unbeliever can do none of those things. Furthermore, we know that man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. With this in mind what will the Lord think when he sees an unbeliever on the worship team, whose heart is not about worshipping him, but just about playing music? And more so, what will the Lord think of the leader that chooses to put unbelievers in their worship team just to get a certain musical sound, rather than putting Spirit-filled worshippers on the worship team to truly Worship the Lord?
My worship team is very small. I play in a military band in DC and am surrounded by amazing musicians of all different talents. I myself am a brass player but lead worship on guitar and vocals. I brought in a colleague (a bass player from my cover band, a sax player from our "day job") to cover a bass part. He's come in many times to fill the bass spot. He ended up taking communion at one point. Who knew.... The seed may or may not have been planted.
I agree that it is case by case. If your worship team reflects Jesus, the “not yet believer” will soon encounter Christ. I and many of my co-worship leaders have been filled with the Spirit through being shown grace by a church/worship team member.
Hi Gents! You make some good points as we consider the difference in using different folks in other areas of service in the church, but I think we tread in dangerous waters if we use non-believers on the worship team. Like our pastors who share God's Word, we would never ask a non-believer, even a well-versed (non-believing) theologian to step into the pastor's role and minister front and center to the church body. In addition, many times after service, we have an opportunity as members of the worship team to interact with the body, often ministering to and praying with individuals. The examples we see in the earthly life of Jesus using non-believers primarily involve who He ministered to rather than who He ministered with, so I don't see how that applies to the use of non-believing talent on the worship team. I suppose there are exceptions to such rules, but I think that would be the point in itself, it would have to an exception rather than the rule, and not using non-believers should be the rule even when considering the exception. Thank you for the tutorials over the years, they have helped me immensely in my own ministry opportunities. Blessings to you both brothers.
Good topic and good point of view. I serve on a worship team as a bass player. Since I discovered your channel, I have been devouring your videos. You bring a lot of great and useful content. I hope you keep it coming. Incidentally, I first found your channel because I was looking for POD Go presets for acoustic guitar. Thank you!
Of course, I hold that the LEADER has to be a Christian. But, I also think that a non-christian musician can still support the leader as he leads. If the person is not actively working against the spirit of God, God can still work through him. And maybe allowing the non-believer to play on a team is the catalyst that brings him to know God
I say being a Non Christian apart of the worship team can draw you closer to God but I think the people worshiping not on the worship team bring in the Holy Spirit by lifting their hands and praising not just the worship team I thinks it’s a topic you need to pray and ask God for this answer
at 5:00 you note that some non-christians looks more happy than christians. Be careful with this aspect. God looks the heart when human looks at the outside. Worship is a service. How can a non-beliver can serve for a service of God? There is no judment in that way, because only God guide to the service to God, no one else. Does God need the greatest artist of the world for the best worship? Quality music is something great and beautiful. Worship service by true God servant missioned by God is 100% the good plan to prefer. Also, I am agree that for some particular case, lines can move and some exeption can be allow. That is very specific. But please do not make that as a normal or classic way. Because it is only special and guide by God in the heart of the worship/church team. Continue like this guys. Bless you.
Interesting questions. Let me pose a few. 1. Would you allow a non-Christain to speak in front of your congregation each week? What if they are a talented speaker? What if they had great skills and the ability to inspire. What if they could offer a positive experience? What if they connected with people and motivate others? 2. What would then be the incentive to want to be a Christain and live a sacrificial life for Christ, if you are given a position of prominence without the sacrifice and or the calling that is often associated with such a visible position of leadership? 3. Does the purpose of putting a "very talented" non-beliving musician in a position of leadership benefit the non-believer? Or the worship team? 4. Would there even be a consideration for a non-Christian musician to be on a worship team if their talents were far less than that of a believer who wanted the same position? 5. What other leadership positions would you be comfortable allowing a non-Christian to hold? Plumbers, traffic help, electricians, etc. Not exactly leadership positions. 6. How would one see this approach any different than those criticized for missionary dating? 7. Where else in the bible are we told to put the cart before the horse? Even if it's a very talented cart? Again, just my own observations. But it seems this discussion often centers around the "amount of talent" the non-Christian holds. For some church's this often seems to be the only determining factor as to whether someone should be allowed to participate in one of the church's most visible ministries, regardless whether the person is a believer or not. It also seems like a missed opportunity for the non-Christain musician. God's timing is perfect. If someone who is a non-Christain musician truly wants to be part of a worship ministry, perhaps patients should be the priority. Share with them. Study with them. Mentor them. I mean this is a position of leadership. It's been my experience that rarely does the non-Christain seek out a Christain worship band. It seems that it's usually the other way around and that it's worship band that seeks out the 'talented" non-Christain musician. So perhaps motives should be clarified when pursuing such a venture. That being said. I had a very talented friend who was a non-Christain musician and he had been invited to play with several worship bands. Which he did. Almost a decade later I found out that he had recently given his life to Christ. Glory to God!! AMEN!! Can it happen? Yes, it can. But having someone who you choose to lead your congregation for years who does not know Christ. Should that be the exception or the rule? And why then should it be the exception?
I got invited to the worship team of our church. At that time I would have called myself a christian, yet I barely knew (about) Jesus. I would only go to church to play in the band, but it was a reason to keep coming to church. A few years later I got more involved in studies given by our church and it changed me. I would not know Jesus if I didn't stick around for the band. I encourage non-christians and teens to play in the band so that the same might happen to them. For slingers it's a little different I think. They have to sing from their heart. Singers should mean what they sing more than other band members
My personal conviction on this issue is that I want musicians invested in the church and not the worship team. So not only would I not allow non-Christians on the team, I also would not allow non-members to function as regularly musicians on a worship team. I have seen musicians who when no longer involved in the worship team, or not scheduled not attending church. I have an issue with this because I value invested in the church community as greater than musicianship.
Someone took a chance on me when I was 14. And God has been using me ever since. He used music, to draw me closer to Him. You don't know the plan that God has, because we are limited in our thinking. He uses non conventional ways to change people. Let the Holy Spirit change this person and let your testimony be a way for this person to see Jesus in how you worship.
This conversation reminds me of similar ones around the topic of "should I date a non-Christian guy/girl". I hear a lot of "God can/in hindsight did use the situation" there as well. Not sure if I agree. Also, this could also be extrapolated to "Should we allow LGBTQ (Christian or not) musicians on the worship team?"
I’d answer this question with another question. Does God want to be worshiped in a particular way? It seems to me even from Cain and Abel all the way to Ananias and Sapphira that the answer is yes. Some worship was found acceptable and some was not. I see the good in what a lot of people in the comments have said about how they came to know the Lord through their worship teams and I’m so glad they came to know the Lord!!! But God can use anything to bring himself glory. That doesn’t mean anything is acceptable. As a worship leader myself I believe my team is modeling worship for everyone in the congregation. I’m talking about everything that we do on the platform on a Sunday. If my team isn’t involved in daily worship of our creator in things like prayer, confession, dying daily to sin etc. then when I put them up on the platform to lead/play/sing, what I, and the church, communicate to the congregation is that following Jesus just isn’t very important to us.
Non Christians should not be allowed on the worship team. It IS a yes or no answer. Can non Christian worship? No. Should they assist in leading worship? No. Here is a great article: www.desiringgod.org/articles/should-non-christians-lead-worship
"Can non Christian worship? No" ... So if a friend of yours, who wasn't a Christian, came over to your house while you were having a Bible study, and you had an acoustic worship time, and he decided he wanted to sing How Great Is Our God with you... you're saying he couldn't worship? Would you ask him to leave? Just curious...
Well, it isn't wrong for non Christians to sing along or play along to Christian songs. However, they shouldn't be allowed to lead a group or a congregation into praise and worship as this "non Christian" wouldn't have encountered God in their lives yet. How can you lead if you aren't yet a follower?
That's just a biblical fact. Unbelievers CAN'T worship God. Can they sing along to our songs in worship? Yes. But they're not worshiping God. I'm not saying unbelievers shouldn't be allowed in our churches or invited to our Bible studies to get them saved. Of course they should. I'm just saying that unbelievers should NEVER be allowed on worship teams...because they CAN'T worship. Only when we become followers of Jesus can we worship God rightly. And the worship team that's leading the congregation in the worship of the Living God should ALWAYS be staffed with worshiping believers. No matter how talented an unbeliever may be.
Amen!! The bible calls us to be “like minded” and those who dont believe in His death/resurrection/Ascension should never serve the body of Christ. Galatians 5:9 a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
I think it is possible to have a non-christian band members, depending on their demeanor. That non-christian came to Christ in some form. Eventually with all the love and prayers, not to mention maybe listening to God's word will open the doors for someone to accept Jesus Christ. It surely open the door for praise and worship in their heart through their talent. Although ideally it is preferred to have christian band members, we can't close the door on non-christian wanting to serve Christ. Once that door is opened, God can do amazing things. Praise God for open doors, otherwise I wouldn't have formed a relationship with God!
"Worshiping Jesus together may be the single most important thing we do. It plays an indispensable role in rekindling our spiritual fire, and keeping it burning." David Mathis from DesiringGod.org Awesome start to an article he wrote. www.desiringgod.org/articles/five-benefits-of-corporate-worship
I've had a lot of thoughts back and forth on this over the past years. Originally, i was very adamant about the worship team having to be all confessing Christians but over the past year or so my thoughts have changed. Like you mentioned, if someone is the polar opposite of the band, a satanist (to be extreme), then no they shouldn't. However, you may have team members that are confessing Christians that lead lives not indicative of Christ. Yes, a pastor and the church's mission should be taken into consideration in all this. I think it is also important to look at the individual. It would be best that their lives, even if not Christian, displayed soundness of mind (not someone that spends Saturday night in a police car and then shows up Sunday for worship. Looking past all of it to the center of it all, God can use anyone, even those who aren't Christian. God hardened the heart of Pharaoh when Moses spoke to him, so that God would gain glory for Himself. I think even if someone thinks they're just doing it because of the music, God can use them and even use that as a door into their lives. Think of the parable of talents: The servants each had talents and used them, but they weren't their talents to begin with, it was an investment by the master. The servants invested and made more of it. God gave them all voices, ability to play, tech skills, and even things beyond worship if they choose to use them then good. This video gave me a lot of thoughts on the subject and I'm glad ya'll hit even the hard questions. I think it does come down to prayer and who the individual is. We have to follow the call of God, even when it seems nuts. We're trying to make praises but we can't ignore the call of the gospel. Thank you, for your work.
My first question is to all who have cast a definitive NO answer to this question is "Who is to be held responsible to verify and make judgement as to the status of someone else's salvation? I do expect and certainly hope that the worship leader is in a committed relationship with Christ, but every individiual is at a different place in their relationship to Christ. And that relationship may vary from time to time. If a person is wanting to serve as a musician in a worship/praise team, that makes me tend to think that maybe they are on a personal quest for something more in their relationship with God. I have personally seen musicians that have turned their lives around by being involved in Christian music. I think we can all agree that music is a powerful medium that can touch the human heart. I would much rather see a musician being used in a church setting where hopefully he is surrounded by other Christians in ministry that can lift that person up in prayer and fellowship. Consider the alternative: Musicians are going to perform somewhere because it is just in their nature. If not surrounded a body of believers where he can be spiritually nourished by the body, then they are going to find other avenues to use that talent. Would it not be better to play in church than in that club down the road? Secondly, in addition to being a Worship Leader, I am also the choir director at my church. Would you make the same requirement for members of the choir? I can tell you with great probability, that in the many years of directing church music that there have been quite a few choir members that probably do not have a personal relationship with God. I personally do not want (nor am I qualified) to make a judgement call on whether or not someone is a "good enough" Christian to serve in any capacity within the church. Also, who says that God cannot or will not use persons who are "unbelievers" to exact his will. Christ Himself illustrates the value of such people in his response to the expert in the law found in Luke 10:30-37, the story of the good samaritan who was not a believer in the One True God. Yet Jesus Himself agreed with the expert that this man was more of a neighbor than the priest or levite, because of his actions of mercy. Lastly, I pose the question "Is the church only for those who are saved? That would kind of defeat one of the main purposes of the church. Christ told us "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt 28:19) NIV.
At my church we believe that everyone who serves in any area of ministry should be a spirit-filled Christian. That includes ushers, teachers, and especially worship leaders. How can a non-believer even worship a God they don't know? They'll just be playing but they won't be worshipping, and I believe that hinders the move of the Spirit.
There’s no vicinity in our church that will let a nonbeliever serve in a ministry. But we’re not snobs about it. But regardless of how nice you are, our ministry is a service. It’s one thing if it’s hired people to repair something, but another thing if you are serving in the church. The Holy Spirit can use anyone, and God can call anyone, but saved or not saved, we measure where the heart is. And we’re relaxed but there are statutes we follow. Biblical.
I agree that the Lords mercy and grace is wonderful. Lets remember brothers and sisters that the word of God says the the Lord has mercy on who He wants to (Romans 9:18). And what about keeping the altar holy, not only our Spirit,Soul, and body but the stage where as Pastors, Leaders, Worshipers we have the responsibility to make sure that the body of Christ is being ministered by the Holy Spirit and not an outside source. @WorshipTutorials
1 Corinthians 4:15 : So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
i am brazilian and all i can say is that to allow a non-christian on worship team sounds an absolutely crazyyy thing. I think the only way for you to considering it as a possibility is if you consider the worship time in our services as a simply music concert whithout any spiritual significance. Let me ask a question: Should we allow non-Christians on the pastoring team? cause this is the next question you will make in 5 or 10 years. For me, even this topic is an completely absurd.
The Bible is pretty clear about pastor leadership and the requirements of it, but the question churches should ask is whether a guitar player or drummer is part of 'pastoral leadership'. For some, it may be a clear yes, but for others, maybe not. Another question to ask is whether you'd allow a non-believer to serve as a greeter or to help with facilities upkeep. Again - some churches may be very clear on this, but others may not. We don't claim to have the answer to this question (we stated that right from the beginning), but we do feel it's a little more complicated that a simple yes or no. Thanks!
Let’s be real honest jesus taught peter and James to fish I was asked to park cars on a Sunday but really feel like I was not being used I’m no longer at that church and I paid tithes to them but now I don’t attend church st all
Great question. I think in the end it is situational, and no matter what side of the fence you sit on you will occasionally be wrong. :) In my mind it depends on the mindset of the person wanting to join the team. Are they doing it for their glory, or for the glory of God? Do they understand that the band is not the centerpiece of the church, but is there to 'prepare' the audience to hear the message? I think it is absolutely ok to have someone seeking Christ on the worship team, but it is the duty of the Worship Leader to filter out those that might be simply looking for a gig versus those that are there to help the mission/themselves. One exception might be hiring a temporary working musician to fill a role while seeking a full-timer--but even in that situation you might bring that musician into the fold! :) In the end I'd would probably hire a mediocre musician with a thirst for Christ than a pro that is there just to 'jam.'
It's not about being judgmental or criticizing the facts are facts, someone who doesn't know God, someone who doesn't have the spirit inside, how can they worship God? As a Christian musician, you can't just walk with one without the other. You have to be skilled with your instrument AND be in the spirit.
It's better( in my humble opinion) to have one person in the spirit lead worship than to have a stage full of extremely skilled musicians.
How could Jesus use someone like Judas in His ministry?
@@Cordlby you know that's a valid question..the thing is that God sees what we can't and knows what we can't understand/know. Scripture says that we walk by faith and not by sight.
@@Elugalde89 right exactly. These questions are so hard to understand and get answers to lol
@@chuckpugsley759 Woah woah woah hold on a sec. There is a difference between seeing something in scripture and purposefully manipulating it. I'm not trying to manipulate it, and I can easily say, why did Jesus use Judas for his ministry then if he was unequally yoked?
@@Cordlby you pose a good question. May we analyze this logically? The video is asking about using a nonbeliever in worship service. Judas was never used in the worship service of the church. He was not there Acts 2 when the church started. We have no example of nonbelievers serving in worship service of the church.
I started playing at church because it was a gig. I always believed in God but through worship I really came to know Jesus. Playing the worship music and seeing it affect people is such a strong way really made me dig into who is this Jesus. So for me and others that I know being on the worship team was really Gods way of guiding me to Jesus and is no longer just a gig at all but a very intimate special time for me to share my spiritual gifts with God and the congregation.
This is just the situation that first came to mind... winning one more soul to the Lord. Thanks for your testimony and praise God for your salvation! I think that it should be a decision bathed in prayer and not just a hard lined policy one way or the other. It depends on the individual being considered and in many aspects, who can know their heart except for the Lord? That individual must submit their gifts to the authority of the Worship Leadership and not be a rock star or super star. The spotlight experience is inverted in leading worship... it is off of the band and on giving glory to God. If that person can find that balance, who knows, but the Holy Spirit may be using that to bring him or her to Christ. God bless and thanks for sharing!
T AN that is exactly what I was thinking when I saw this video pop up. I actually thought about it quite a bit while they were discussing this. I myself have always been a believer, but I went through quite a long period of not being plugged into a church or being strong in my faith. About a decade ago we started going to church, at first for our children, because I wanted them to be saved and have positivity in their lives. I have been a musician since I was a youth, and played the whole various scenes. I first got plugged into the audio team pretty quickly. Soon later I joined the worship team and it has helped me grow in my faith and increased my relationship with Jesus and our great Father.
It has been such a blessing to my life and I think it can help non-believers, as long as they aren't the truly evil person as mentioned here; I think it could save more people and help them and their family as well. We are supposed to grow the flock and if it is through music, then I think it should be prayerfully entertained.
Very good discussion. I appreciate the insight.
SS Sandman Beautiful great to hear!
The first church, I were in, would do it so "Someone can play the instrument, tolerates the message, is qualified", but the church after this and the church I'm in says "Worship is related to have a relationship with God, so a person who doesn't follow Christ, isn't qualified".
It’s sad when a church has a band full of talented members but none of them have a profound relationship with God. It sounds so good, yet there’s nothing meaningful about it. And then you got to churches with 2 or 3 band members, who are also leaders at the church and are committed to living a life with Christ and it sounds ok but with great impact upon lives
I wholeheartedly agree relationship with God matters most before even thinking about serving 🙏🏽
That quote, "God does not use the person to complete the task, He uses the task to complete the person." Is so absolutely profound. Thank you for sharing that. I have seen that happen in our church. That's more than a worship team thing. That is a life thing.
19 years ago, I was a musician for 6-7 years and the church i was saved in had us wait 6 months before we served. They walked with me through discipleship so that when I served on the worship team, cleaning, or anything I was seasoned. I left to work for a ministry/bible school, when I moved back to town I was part of another church that did have non-saved worship team members. Both instances had people genuinely being saved, some thinking as long as 'I was doing ministry I was saved', and both had Christians who ended up leaving the church and following the passions of the world. To be honest I do believe we saw God move in different ways in both situations, but in a purely worship situation, I do believe that salvation and discipleship before service. The spiritual warfare associated with worship teams, I need my team's prayers (I pray for them too 😂), experience dealing with their walk with God, and sensitivity to the spirit of God to affect the music. I believe people get musical cues, but to consistently hear from the Lord, it's a different ballgame. No condemnation though, like I said, this is what I and my church believe.
This is a great conversation to have. As a pastor, I've run into just about ever scenario imaginable with musicians. I've had the musician that professed to be a believer that committed adultery numerous times. He went through counselling and restoration and continues to serve. I've also had the Christian musician that created more havoc than I can share. Then I've had the talented sympathizer who drew near for a season as we tried to lead him into a deeper relationship with Christ. Every situation is different and if you come into this conversation from just a spiritual perspective, you would be hard pressed to even contemplate the thought. On the other hand, I know of many churches that didn't have musicians, that ultimately paid an outsider (many times a non-believer) to play in their services. Even though some may be locked into a thought, not everyone or every church has the answer to this deep and important question. Thanks for starting the conversation, Pastor J
Good topic. If we look at scripture instead of rationalizing our own wants we see a clear answer. You have to ask what are we doing leading worship and who worshipped in the Bible. The purpose of our worship is to praise, glorify and exalt our King. A non believer can not intentionally do any of that. All is vanity outside of Gods grace. And when we see who worshipped God it was always His people. Yeah God can reach a non believer who is serving on a worship team but let’s not limit where God will go just by the power of our testimony.
Here's my take: I serve at a small church of 150-200 on Sunday mornings. In the small church environment, everyone in the church is required to play many roles. If I'm gone for emergent reasons, any member of the worship team could be asked to step up into the worship leader position. Also, at any moment if the pastor needs someone to step in and pray or guide someone spiritually, the whole of our worship team needs to be ready to do that or fill in as necessary leading. I don't think any of us would hire a nonchristian to lead worship for our church, so asking someone to be ready to step up to that position that isnt a Christian probably isn't a good idea either. (Similar to the US vice president position, if they don't qualify for president, they aren't allowed to be in that position where they could become president)
Regardless, I really appreciate you guys addressing this and your ministry! Thanks for all you do!
Love you guys, but I strongly disagree and here's why:
1. Titus 1:5-9 gives the qualifications for a church elder and the bar is pretty high. Elders are not visible on a stage every Sunday, but the worship team is. Why wouldn't the bare minimum of being a Christian be a requirement for the worship team? Personally, I even require church membership to show a level of commitment to the church itself and to a shared doctrine.
2. The worship team is not a means of evangelism to lost team members. We are leading the congregation. We are are part of the church leadership, just like deacons and elders and Sunday school teachers. Would you also allow non-Christians to be Sunday school teachers or elders or deacons? Hiring an electrician to fix your church is different from the asking him to join your church leadership.
Thanks Jared. We are not saying that we feel it's OK for non-Christians to be a part of the team - we are suggesting that churches should consider each case individually through the lens of their ministry, their mission, values, etc. In fact Fuller even said there are not non-Christians on our team. At our church we have a covenant that we ask members to sign, and it involves faith in Christ and active membership, like being a part of a small group, etc.
The electrician or parking lot ministry thing was just an example of something we struggle with. Again, the point of this video was to say that sometimes it's more complicated than yes/no, and each case should be carefully considered individually by church leadership.
We do agree that when it comes to pastoral leadership, the Bible is very clear about who should be fulfilling it.
I hear ya, and definetly no hard feelings here. I am mainly reacting to personal experience where, when I was in college as a music major, I saw people who would curse God and mock Christianity in the practice halls on campus, but then would get hired to be music directors of churches and fill up the choir section as hired musicians for the local Methodist Church.
I remember thinking to myself, "How could this church hire these guys as Choir directors and musicians and vocalists from the university music program who aren't even Christians??"
Hey Brian i dont think the illustration with the apostle Peter and king David (as far as being messed up ppl serving God, as we all are)is the case in that with both , there was an initial encounter with The Lord and a solid profession of faith in spite of later sinful actions (which i think is a different subject)
100% agree, Jared. I love the content on this channel, (you guys are fun to watch and very relatable, not to mention very knowledgeable when it comes to the practical elements of worship ministry) but this video is way off. Reading through the comments, I’m seeing my concern play out. The “yeas” are all presenting emotion-driven anecdotal reasons to say yes, while the “nays” are generally presenting intellect-driven factual THEOLOGICAL reasons to say no.
The thing that bothers me most is that you guys are saying, “there is NO answer.” To make that statement is to say that no one, no where is capable of presenting a theological reason that proves it is not okay to have non-Christians on your worship team-because that would mean an objective no. Your stance excludes a “no” answer; however, by leaving the option open for a yes based on individual cases, your answer, by default, becomes “yes.” Even if it is a conditional yes, it is still a yes.
Guys, it’s either yes or no. This is Christianity. We’re not discussing whether pizza is better than burritos (it is not), we’re discussing a topic which more than likely has a definitive answer because it deals with allowing non-Christians into an extremely visible role in our ministry. I know you said we’re not talking about some random person you met at WalMart, but usually a relative or friend, but allowing for a yes based on situation (situational ethics?) opens it up for the random WalMart person. One commenter said they invited an unsaved homeless person onto their worship team. Nothing against homeless people, and I would be glad to have a Spirit-filled homeless person play on my team, but this illustrates my point: by allowing the option for yes in certain situations (an extremely vague, wishy-washy stance) you allow for that option in ALL situations because every situation is unique and nuanced. If someone wants to bring an unsaved person into their team, they will rationalize a way to do it, so long as they believe it is not inherently wrong.
Seriously, I just found you guys and I have really enjoyed your videos so far. This is a bump in the road, I’m sure, and I’ll keep watching, but I was disappointed to watch this one.
If you would, I’d love to see you address Jared’a points directly instead of restating what you’ve already said. Together, his two points build a very solid case against allowing unsaved people to play/sing in WORSHIP teams. I’d like to see your responses. As always, I remain open to have my mind changed if stronger evidence to the contrary of my belief is presented.
Jared Albin great point.
I think another main problem is that once you put a person on a 'platform/team'... you are putting that person in a position of authority... and I say that as in being responsible as an 'example' for others to follow. Even if that person humbley denounces any actual authority... it is still an unsaid 'given' in that the Worship Team is a ministry...and being a ministry, their lives should live up to the standard of your church...and particularly the Bible. So think about what it means for that person NOT to be considered a Christian. And we must consider that a young person who looks up to this person's playing ability might very well want to emulate everything about this person... including whatever it is that has kept this person from 'being a Christian'. So in my humble opinion, the pew ... and in everyday life...is where we need to reach the lost... not on the platform. Encourage them in music at your home or when others get together at someones house to play... that will affect them... that is where the contact of love and kindness...and Grace... begins.
And in considering the Apostles ...(look at Paul's past) ...or the Tax collector... Yet, each one had to have their own experience with Christ 'first' ...before anything was changed in their heart ...to then serve as 'the face of the Church' ...which is what you are when you get up in front of the congregation to lead them to worship for that service.
I forgot to make that point of authority, thanks for sharing that.
True and true
Personally, I think if we allow non-Christians to play on a worship team then it loses the significance of worship. God ministers through the musicians during worship, so to have someone that doesn't have or understand a heart of worship then it's pretty much a normal gig. Great topic guys! God bless
Valley Christian Center The main purpose of the music team is to bring the congregation closer to God. We have to put the congregation first, that's why we serve in the first place. We have pastors for a reason and God will minister through our pastors to a Non-believer.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think as long as the Leader is demonstrating the heart of worship, then the guitarist/drummer in the background doesn't necessarily take away from that. Those instruments provide plenty to the worship experience for others by having those musical elements than just having the leader on acoustic guitar (the way I lead our small youth group).
guitarfrozenintime Amen brother
Jacob Morgan Actually, it's a lot different when you play in a big setting. Every Musician, worship leader and backing vocalist play a huge part in making the worship session a good one. If one person is slightly off, say spiritually, people can sense it.
At the end of the day, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. God works in a mysterious way at times and sometimes in situations where we least expect it but as long as it is a calling from God than we as believers should support it.
I've been in worship bands since 1972, so I've been around the block. While on a worship team in Las Vegas, we hired a brass section from the strip to be in our band. Within a few weeks they became believers and were on our team for many years after and they were an awesome addition! And just a reminder, Jesus's disciples weren't actually born again until after Jesus was resurrected, and He sent them out to declare the kingdom of God, to heal and cast out demons! WOW! Just be led by the Spirit!
Well, when I had a bad marriage, God used this circumstances to meet me, that I could learn about him.
Bur this doesn't make my wrong decision right.
Don't look for a grey area when there is no such area in the Kingdom of God. Let the one who has not openly professed Jesus the Christ as their savior sing from where they are with the congregation. The praise "team" should consist only of Spirit filled believers, who praise as we are called to"in spirit and in truth ". P&W is so much more than the music, it's the lifestyle of the believer. Black or white, no grey.
I don't think that non christians should be on the worship team.
It is called disharmony in the spirit.
I see it similar - they are spiritual limited. About musical skills they wouldn't never hire a guitar player that can play 3 chords only.
But in Germany the traditional churches have organ players who needs a special license - but doesn't care about following Jesus or relationship with God.
Coupons, Samples And Deals very judgmental 🙄
Thanks for broaching this subject, Brian! It should be a decision bathed in prayer and not just a hard lined policy one way or the other. That time in prayer should involve the whole Worship Team, allowing the Holy Spirit to impart wisdom and discernment. It depends on the individual being considered and in many aspects, who can know their heart except for the Lord? It must not be driven just because the person is a very good musician and the church is sadly lacking in such talent, which is all too common. That individual must be willing to submit their gifts to the authority of the Worship Leadership and be decisively not a rock star or super star. They must be informed as to these expectations in their interview and willing to be in agreement that the spotlight experience is inverted in leading worship... it is off of the band and directed only towards giving glory to God. They must not be in any way, form or fashion, a hindrance to the work of the Ministry. The slightest degree of rebellion can rip like a wildfire through the church, totally undermining the operation of the Holy Spirit. If that person can find that balance, who knows, but the Holy Spirit may be using the worship experience, the fellowship, the bonding and the beautiful music and lyrics to woo their heart to salvation in Jesus Christ. That is, after-all, our first purpose and highest priority, right? If it turns out that it is not working out, then the difficult task to release that member from the Worship Team must be embraced. Jesus said, "Pray the Lord of the Harvest to send out the laborers. The harvest is great, but the laborers are few."
When I first saw the "description" for this video and then hovered over the preview, I saw that it was nearly 20 minutes. I was like, "Really? It shouldn't take 20 minutes to say, 'no'." I get the viewpoint of leading that person TO a relationship with God through Christ, but, I don't find it compelling. As others have very eloquently stated, a spot on the worship team is a congregational leadership position (that should help anybody who gets bent out of shape over the term "church" leadership) whether it is the person who selects and sings all of or the vast majority of the songs or the person who plays the triangle. Regardless of the talent of the person or the need of the worship team (as in, we really NEED a piano player, and Joe has been playing bars for the past 20 years, so...) "non-Christian" should be a non-starter. I also get the statement about how a lot of unsaved people "act" better than a lot of Christians. But, at the end of the day, there is gonna be a lot of "good" people in Hell, so, "good" shouldn't be the standard.
I also realize that some of this may come off as a little course and even a little self-righteous, and that's not what I'm trying to do here. That sort of thing irritates me to no end. But, I'm trying to be as short-winded as possible. Otherwise, one could, in theory, spend 20 minutes watching the video and another 20 reading my comment ;)
I got saved by being a non-christian using my skills as a guitarist on a Worship Team10 years ago. Now I'm the Worship Leader of Cornerstone Community Church in Milton Vermont and we are growing faster than I can keep up with (That is not a problem, it's Gods will).
That is awesome - thanks for sharing, Cletus! I think many people who are involved in worship ministry can trace back to someone in the church investing in them before their faith was fully mature.
While I’m glad you came to Christ it’s by pure grace alone that any of us are come to Christ I was brought to church and stayed in church because of lust that doesn’t mean it’s the right way it just means that God works providentially thru even our sin and lack of obedience.
About 9 years ago i was heavy into witch craft. One day my my sister and soon to be brother in-law invited me to play guitar for there church . And well music is my life so of course i said yes. And with in 9 month of playing with the church and becoming part of the family God called me home and was baptized . Now im taking on the roll of worship leader . Looking back at my transformation i am so blessed to be apart of a church who follows the teaching of Jesus and not judge anyone but chooses to show love.
I am a pastor and I struggle with this. I have allowed it in the past with this distinction: I allowed a non believing instrumentalist but not a non believing vocalist.
But I been embarrassed as often on social media by the actions of my believers as the unbelievers.
Thanks for sharing Randy. You bring up a good point regarding social media. The people on our stages represent our church - they are the faces people see and associate with us. You also bring up another great point - I've seen plenty of professing Christians embarrass themselves (and their churches) with their actions on social media and elsewhere as well. Thank God for grace :)
But that's when the Pastor goes to that person and talks to them about what they are seeing on social media...if he/she repents and stops... it's a learning point... if not... they need to sit down from service until they can be restored.
and that's not 'judging; ...that's 'teaching' what God requires of us on social media or in person...face to face. We all have to learn and sometimes that learning is from our mistakes being pointed out... right?
Agreed Lisa
Randy I have a very similar viewpoint.
I started playing in a youth band 15 plus years ago at a church. I considered myself a Christian at the time, but did not have a heart for worship and did not have a relationship with Jesus like I feel like I have now. I truly believe that allowing me to serve in the worship team DID help with my struggles and help me get through everything that I have. These guys pointed out that even people who followed Christ screwed up and fell short. You never know the people who you let serve may be going through or struggling with, Christian or not, and how being part of a team of fellow believers and worshipers can put you in a position to draw closer or even find Jesus for the first time. Just my 2 cents.
Started playing in my small church before being baptised and have to say it gave me a reason to come to church at least twice a week and spend time with brothers in the faith that showed me their faith through patience with me and the gifts of the holy spirit while singing songs that took me a while to connect with the lyrics instead but eventually was leading every once in a while. Its a beautiful thing when people are shown Gods love rather than just told about it. Any chance to let people "get a chance to play" (vineyard speak) is great. Thanks for tackling some of the harder issues! Great video
Thanks for sharing, Alex!
Serving in worship ministries is some of the most wonderful as well as the most hurtful experiences around but few Christians dare to speak up on this since many churches would label you “negative and unspiritual”. It is one of the most hypocritical traps for many Christians in the worship ministry to start labeling people as though they were “superior” to others. It can encourage cliques and double-standards/favoritism. Speaking from my own experiences, I was allowed to play guitar at age 15 in Christian retreats when I was still an agnostic but have gave my life to Christ a year or two later. Also, I let this one guy play guitar in a nightly retreat entertainment that was a fantastic guitar player. He was a non-believer and indifferent to the gospel at the time. I come to be his friend and we became closest friends to this day as he shared with me much guitar techniques. After many years of witnessing to him which took more than 10 years, he finally gave his life to Christ and decades later, he lead his elderly mother to the Lord. He is one of the top lead guitarist in a sizable church in a large city for the past decade and has blessed many a younger crowd with his music ministry. Who is to say he can’t be involved because someone in leadership determines he can’t be a worship musician? It is true that churches would let many do hard unglamorous work in a heart beat but not allow same person to be in any spotlight on stage. I am not saying that we must always allow non-Christians be in worship teams but I also seen Christians that have been up there with teams and hurt people in spite of talent. Christians....open your eyes and determine what Jesus would have done in the same circumstances. He was more concerned with getting people into His Kingdom by telling the disciples the most important person is the servant of the other and will do it unto to least of these. What kind of light are we to the world and if they see us, will they see Christ?
My take on it is this:
No. With one exception I will later touch upon. It’s a simple as this to me: Should a non-Christian join your worship team? Worship team. The goal of the worship team, band, group is to worship. To worship God. A non-Christian would be part of a group that is serving the purpose of glorifying God, praising God, worshipping and adoring God with their talents, gifts, and abilities. But they wouldn’t be fulfilling their own purpose as part of the group. They may be talented, and gifted, and highly skilled, but if you’re not using those gifts to worship God, for his glory, then you’re in the group for the wrong reason. Now, as for the exception.
Maybe a non-Christian joining the worship team could bring them closer to God. God may have planned for them to come to him through the band. I don’t know, we don’t know. I doubt even the person trying to join knows. At my church, the requirements to join the band are that one has to have been an active member for the past 6 months in good standing. We haven’t had any “non-Christians”- I guess that either means secular or those who haven’t accepted salvation - ask to join but we did have a new member who we do allow to practice with us and learn the songs until he is baptized and becomes a member of the church. I don’t think it’s legalistic or exclusivity, but rather the church doing its part to ensure every one serving God is actually serving God.
thats true fren.because in our church too .Some of friends of worship team, have n't known Jesus well but when they continue to worship.time came God change their heart and made them as true worshiper. i can 't judge but if non-christain want to worship him and serve we can't stop because God will touch him/her and bless him/her
So even if they are a Christian they need to be a "church member" for 6 months? From a biblical perspective they're a church member from the day of their conversion. The concept of "church membership" is a modern day construct. Of course you can do what you want :-) IMHO facts and circumstances need to come into play. If they are a solid Christians (and have been for a while ) and meet your other standards for the worship team then maybe some consideration should be given as long as they indicate a commitment to your team.
I get what you say, but maybe what his church's reason for that person to be a regular church goer for 6 months is that they would like to know the character and the spiritual maturity of that person before they would accept him/her to the team.
Do not ask us bro. The Holy Spirit should be the senior pastor of every church. Ask the Holy Spirit. I know that the Holy Spirit will guide you to the right steps in dealing with the situation. :)
Why?
I know this is a very polarizing topic to cover and I think you guys did a really good job.
We had a guy on our worship team that would come to church with alcohol on his breath but was a great bassist. After discussion with the worship leader and our pastor they still decided to keep him on the team. He didn't cause any disruption to the service, he was just very closed off from interaction and worship. Fast forward 6 months and he had a breakthrough moment with God and gave up alcohol completely and has never looked back. He now still serves on our worship team and is a great mentor and friend. You can now see the spirit of worship within him. He said that the church accepting him where he was at in the time of his darkest days was pivotal in his transformation.
All this to say I think we should use sound judgment when accepting someone into the worship team dynamic, but we need to meet people where they are and not where we think they should be.
Excellent topic guys! I'm leading worship this Sunday. I been a Christian for the past 3 years only by the grace of God. Was led in the church where division was happening when we joined, but that didn't really bother us since our focus was God. Then I became a deacon by the nomination of the congregation after a year. Then was asked to worship lead... what I'm saying is this: for me, my main focus was always God, and I would ask Him to guide me, and use me. If it's his plan, he will and no one can stop him. Recently we merged with other church and we all had to step down, and again I just prayed, Lord use me, and now after just 4 months I'm asked to lead the worship this Sunday for the first time. To me, God is in control and as much as you wanna be up there on the stage serving God you can also serve him in the crowds, and the good thing about this is that I have learned to be humble, so I let those people who are in charge make the decision. I think if a person is really willing to serve God then he must be willing to submit to those in authority.
In my eyes my entire worship team are worship leaders as well. They lead the way to the throne-room and he equips the ones who are called and submit to him. We've had talented people want to join our team and we've asked them hey how about you come to our church a few weeks and get acclimated and make sure you're supposed to be here and this is where the Lord has called you to serve and 90% of the time they never make it past week one. Do we want to kick them out to the street? Of course not but even Jesus told the man who wanted to follow him hey sell all your possessions and follow me. Its about making sure that someone from the nursery workers to the lot attendants to the security team is here to serve the Lord and not themselves. We allow struggling people to be on our worship team because they are committed to the Lord, to the Church and to the team but we don't just let anyone come on board. That is my answer I too could be wrong.
I have several people in the church band that are not christian, i'm from a small town where none of the churches have bands, they all have dvd worship, but i lead worship as the worship pastor in a church here and i have non Christians in the band because without them its just me and my acoustic guitar, but here's the thing, the music is legit amazing, because allot of times non Christians are far more professional, Christians turn up late, they don't care, these guys treat church worship with a zeal I've never seen in Christians. and the thing is, we do free worship, like bethel spontaneous stuff, and its sooooo amazing, and the spirit does amazing things, ty for the video guys.
I have had many discussions with friends about this topic and I think this is where I fall on the topic. We call them worship leaders and so as a leadership group, we have agreed that non-Christians couldn't understand how to lead in worship. I don't mean that to sound judgemental but we throw the word "Worship leaders" rather easily and if we don't really mean that term, we shouldn't use it. We have had people come and "preach" in our pulpit who weren't pastors but would we ever use a non-Christian to do so? So this is where we arrived. I have invited people to special "jam" times who weren't Christians but the purpose was always fun, fellowship and building relationships.
Thanks Randy!
Agree soooo much! Specially with the jam time as creative ministering opportunity. We need to come before the presence of God with our Whole heart surrendered to His will and nothing less. If we then allow a Non-believer lead in worship on stage in front of the congregation there's dangers that would rise even in the congregation itself as looking for Christian examples in those who are in the labor of serving God's holy church. We have to always think about that as well. If we are on a stage leading people to Christ everyone becomes a leader in their area.
Thanks for sharing. I have lived in small rural communities most of my life, and if it wasn’t for the odd non christian musician who just wanted to play music we would not have had any music. Best of all some of them came to faith, and went on to use their gifts in other churches as worship leaders.
Ian Peters Galatians 5:9 a little bit of leaven leavens the WHOLE lump
In my experience, I joined my church's worship team with thoughts and intentions of self glory. At that point in time I was young in faith and I'm also a musician so that's what I had thought. However my plans of achieving self glory were quickly shut down as I didn't get the so called results that I'd desired. Eventually I saw serving as a burden. However as time passed on I had been convicted by the songs that we were singing and I just found that serving God and worshipping Him had brought me great joy and praising His name had given me much more satisfaction than self glory could ever have gotten me.
Fast forward to the present, currently I'm a worship leader still trying to improve on serving God's people and putting God first. But funny enough I'm now trying to show others in the team the importance of serving and how great it is to praise His name.
God doesn't use us to complete a task, He uses the task to complete us.
I feel the point of music in a church is to stir up people’s emotions, or to get them feeling a certain way with the Lord. How can the people playing the music get people excited about God when they themselves aren’t saved. So, the answer is no, if you’re not a Christian then you shouldn’t be on a worship team. churches nowadays try more to please people more-so than please God. So many churches have drifted so far from God. Very rarely do you actually find one that does things the right way.
I lead worship at a small church where our worship team is a rotation of about 5-8 people, we were in need of an electric guitarist and one of our members has a weekly food truck outreach where we fellowship and feed with the homeless here in Miami. We played some worship songs while our friends were in line for the food one week when one of the guys in line, asked if he could jam with us. He started playing with us and immediately caught on and started soloing in instrumental sections and so forth. We were talking with him after food had been distributed and we found out he’s played guitar for about 30 years and was struggling with homelessness, however he hadn’t been able to play recently cause he was paying off a pawn shop to hold his equipment with the governmental aid he was receiving. We offered to hold his equipment for him and gave him the opportunity to play with us on sundays, he declined each time for awhile, but after a few months of connecting with him weekly at the truck stops, he accepted our invitation and has now been part of our worship team every week for 3 years. He’s not a Christian but I do believe we’re sowing seeds every week. We’ve shown grace when he’s shown up to play under the influence and asked him to not play that day, but invited him back the following. It’s a gradual process, but seeing him be excited to play every week and now be at the point where he’s giving us feedback on songs he thinks we should play, or different ways we could play a song is a blessing. That’s the personal testimony from a little church in Miami, but it’s a big and beautiful testimony! Shalom guys!
Is the guy's name Jeff?
THAT is awesome!
I appreciate you bringing this up. In our church, we once allowed a non-believer to play as a guitarist on our band. This was to make the non-believer closer to church and maybe he could have a genuine relationship with Christ. At first we were okay with it up as time goes by, it seems that during sundays when we guide the congregation to worship, all of us with the exception of the non-believer, felt that there was really something wrong. The congregation's worship seemed to be dry and then the message of God through our pastor had no impact on the lives of the people. It went for a month until we decided to make him rest from playing and that next Sunday, we had a great moving of the Holy Spirit. Everyone was worshiping and crying. Everyone was on their knees. I mean you could really feel that the songs that we played was having an impact in the their lives.
After that, we decided to disallow non-believers to play in our church. We as a team made our own standard that even how talented a person could be, his spiritual life was more important. We believe that ones relationship with Christ is what makes our worship as a team powerful and makes the Word of God, that is preached by the pastor, impact the life of the listener more directly. We do not want to be legalistic but we believe that bringing a non-believer to play any instrument or even sing in front during worship time contaminates the songs that we sing. That is why we have not compromised any position of our team, no matter how desperate the situation is, we do not give in.
Rather, if a non-believer is interested, we let him go through our cell groups and we guide, access and walk with him/her to make sure that she is spiritually ready and pure to lead the congregation.
Now me speaking personally, I believe that they should not play in the team. For Paul says that what do we believers of Christ have in common with people who are non-believers. We are called to be a peculiar people, unwavering and uncompromising in our decisions. I love non-believers and I pray that their hearts would open to the Word of God and change their lives. I would give my life for them in an instant. But I must draw a line especially regarding the matters of the church.
When I was a teenager in our worship team I had several school friends who were keen to play, but it was aggressively opposed by some of the other members. At the time I remember the explanation was "we wouldn't let a non-christian pray over us either." I was really unhappy with the way it was handled and it left me feeling "Who are you to judge who is christian enough?" My friends were put off coming to the church. My friends had more grace than some of the church members! God can work with anyone and anything they bring to the table - we are all imperfect.
Here's my story. I visited the church I attend now 22 years ago. I was a non-believer. I was a generally good guy, but didn't know Jesus. On my second visit I bumped into a family friend at that service and she knew I played music. The praise team at the time did not have a drummer. When they found out I had a set of drums, they immediately invited me to play. I acquiesced and brought my drums. I am a guitar player who could keep a beat. So I played. I'm not the kind of person who likes to let others down, so missing church for no reason was not an option. I wasn't going to be with Jesus, I was going to be there for the praise team. I had a responsibility and didn't want to let them down. Eventually as i attended I learned more about Christ and accepted Him into my heart. I also eventually moved to guitar. My point is playing on the praise team is what brought me to Jesus. Had I just been an attender, it would have been much easier to be lazy and stay home on Sunday. It worked in my story, but I think each individual's experience is going to be different.
P.S. now I lead worship at a sister church (different time) in addition to playing guitar on the praise team. Giving a non-believer a reason to show up every week is not the worst idea in the world.
I have watched several of your videos and there is always something that speaks to me. One of the things I like is the way you both keep it real by putting in so humor; on occasion downright cutting up. God bless you both and God bless the worship we intend to bring Him.
Thanks Paul!
As a senior pastor, the issue is about the place of, and motivation for, service. I believe only the saved can serve God in the church. Otherwise, the issue of "salvation by works" confuses the unsaved into believing they're "okay" with God.
Thanks for talking about it. As a team leader and media director. I found this very helpful.
I will definitely try it. I’m sure God will pour in His spirit and anoint the worship. I always think about this . He used a Donkey to carrying Him through, donkey wasn’t holy or saved and Jesus used him. He’s using me I’ll definitely bring someone in for a “gig” or volunteer work when need it. So far I’ve experience that. No one can’t just gets close to God and not get changed. So. There. Blessings y’all
While on the surface, this question seems pretty simple, it can actually be very complicated. Obviously, the church should be led by people who profess faith in Christ, but many worship leaders and churches have struggled with this topic. While we do not claim to have a definitive answer, we do feel it's a little more complex than simply yes or no. Please watch the video before commenting to see where we're coming from on this one.
Also please do not assume that we are saying, "Yes, you should allow non-Christians on your worship team". That is not what we are trying to communicate with this video.
5:10 "Ive met some unbelievers live more the christian life" ??? ....isnt that kind of going by appearances?
Eli Sanchez perhaps we should say “who exemplify more Christian values”
There are very moral people who do not profess faith in Christ, and there are people who profess faith in Christ who’s lives don’t reflect it. That’s what we were saying.
Brian
Couldn't agree more with you on that point. I guess its all the more reason to not stop at a mere profession of faith in Christ but also fruit of the Spirit. Years ago i was a worsip leader amd had a guy that wasnt saved on the team and another guy that was saved but with a horrible attitude....guess who got reprimanded more often? Btw great work with your channel God bless
That was really a helpful video you got there! It helped me get rid of a huge barrier in my mind.
When I initially read the caption of the video and began watching it, in my mind the scripture portion from Deuteronomy 22:10 was running
“Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together”
Keeping in mind the portion from 2 Corinthians 6:14
“Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
It was nice to have a different view about the topic that I wrestled with a long time ago.
Thanks!
Good job done in summarising the entire thing, hoping and praying that you will bring in more topics such as these in the near future!
I agree that there may be special circumstances when you might want to ask a non-Christian to be part of your music ministry. But there have been recent cases where some large ministries have shown a shocking lack of discernment, especially in the area of video production. Like the official lyric video for _This is Amazing Grace_ that has a hidden Baphomet image in it. And just last week, Hillsong Young & Free released their video for _Peace_ where an actress is wearing shorts so tight that you can see things only her husband and gynecologist should look at. Seriously-this so-called Christian video is showing actual "camel toe". I can only guess that these failures are the result of ministries bringing in secular artists and giving them creative control.
Yes or No.... I've had several musicians who aren't christians who came to a relationship with with Jesus because they served on the worship team.. I've also had some "christians" who walked away from the faith while on the worship team...
God is bigger than we are.. His spirit also leads us to make great decisions..
Thank you for sharing this video! This was the exact answer I needed. I just started building a worship team and my drummer is an atheist. Please pray for him his name is Aaron. He has been faithfully committed in playing with us for the past two months and some of the leaders wanted to get rid of them based on his beliefs. I felt the Lord wanted him to be a part of the community as a musician. Your video has got everyone on the same page so I thank you for that and Aaron will continue to have a position on the team!
Hey Fuller, long time.
Thanks for making a video on such a tough topic and tackling it with such care. We've had the same struggles at my current church. The somewhat controversial compromise we've reached is that non christians are allowed to serve, not just in the worship ministry but in any area of the church EXCEPT leadership positions. You don't have to be a Christian to make coffee, park cars, or check families into kids ministry, BUT you do if you are a leader or a ministry coach in those areas. How that applies on worship team is that non christians are welcome on Tech Team (running sound, cameras, video, or pro presenter) and onstage in the band, but because vocalists are declaring God’s word through song (and basically singing the scripture) that is considered a leader position because they are leading people in worship in a way that is fundamentally different from playing an instrument or moving a slider.
Not everyone agrees with this policy, and (as you said) an argument can be made for multiple perspectives on the issue, but this is what we’ve come to. Just thought I’d share our policy. Like you said, there is likely no universal answer on this, and each church needs to find the best practice for their congregation. Thanks for the great content on the channel, and hope your family is well. Catch you next time.
I literally stumbled across this channel like half an hour ago, due to a tech question. And as I'm exploring I found this video, which funnily enough explains the situation I'm currently in. I'm attending church with my fiancée for a couple of years now, she is christian, I'm not. At least not really. I'm doubting a lot and I can somewhat relate to God but not to Jesus. However, so many people I met that are believers made me wondering.
After 23 years of not being a musician (which is a pity by the way), I started playing guitar last year, learning it by myself. So at first I needed some easy songs for me to play along that I knew well enough and that's where worship songs came into play. Basically I took a couple of books from my fiancée and started playing them all. And naturally after a while you want to play together with other people. So I considered joining the worship team of my fiancée and talked with the team leader. At first she was not really comfortable with the idea, but after a while she reconsidered and came to the conclusion that it might be God's way for me to him.
Long story short: After playing with them a couple of times in our church service, I don't want to miss it anymore. It is the most important way for me to get a personal relation to faith, God and Jesus, although I wouldn't consider myself a christian. It's my way to explore I'd say.
Hopefully I did not incorporate too many mistakes in my text, since it's already late and English is only my secondary language.
Friend today you could die and go to hell. You must be born again. Playing in some kind of worship group is not the way to a relationship with God, Jesus is the way to God. You must be born again. John 3:3, 5, 7. God loves you.
A thought just came to me after the closing comments: We need to be open to the idea that God may choose someone we didn't expect, to be used in ways we didn't expect.
For me I stand on a leadership aspect. As a leader in the church you should lead by example in the morals of your life. However, you guys really made me think about this, thank you
Thank you for raising this topic. I have heard testimony, that a young guy was playing in pentecostal church worship team even before he got saved. Today that guy is completely devoted to God and ministry.
People say-always there can be an exception...
Even if we are not slaves of the law, Jesus did not cancel commandments and the law. And law shows, what God likes: faith, holiness,truth. And about ministries God has been very precise. So none of the levites ministering in temple could be someone outside His nation. That means-no nonbelievers in worship team. And I believe, most will agree, that even with believers, there are own struggles and issues to cope with.
On other hand-there should be a difference between ministries- like one, that requires a certain skill like electric or car shop specialist, carpenter etc. As I see, Solomon building the Temple invited the most talented and skilled craftsmen of that time, and they were from other nations. So technical skills could be also some exceptions.
Relating to music ministry, as preparing some special music, not necessary worship program, might be involved some skilled professionals, but still, we need to filtrate, whom we invite-extremes would not work here also.
We need to keep in mind, that we, the church, should be His sweet perfume. What is good, righteous and holy.
I believe God has intended church to be self sufficient. I have experienced "amateur" christians doing a rock operas and hired "professionals". And I can say one for sure-the professionals did well and nice, but the anointing was much thicker on devotion and love of the amateurs. That is how I felt it.
Thank you for the broadcasts. God bless!
I'm personally not religious but my all time favorite musical experience was serving as a guitar player on a worship team. Although I don't believe the content, I really loved to bring others who do believe closer to their god. It's an amazing feeling to see someone crying of joy because of the music. Being the vessel of that joy meant a lot to me religious or not. I loved it and I will always look for an open guitar spot on a worship team when I want to join a band.
I hope you won't mind me making another comment. I am not qualified to be a worship leader, none of us are. We could never qualify ourselves (although I personally believe that we can disqualify ourselves for some positions but that is another discussion). I think it's important to always remember that because it humbles me that God would choose to use me in such a way because I don't deserve it and can't earn it.
I appreciate your asking the question because we should always be willing to have the discussion. I "settled" this for myself a long time ago but I have had countless discussions with others about this very topic. And I listened even though in the end we still didn't come to agreement. But I believe the discussion is worth having. Perhaps some haven't considered the issue but even more so, there is nothing to be afraid of in having a discussion. Some might say "this is so basic" but this is exactly the method that Jesus used to teach. I had a mentor who told me once, "Never teach someone something that you can help them discover for themselves." When I worked with youth, I shied from trying to tell them what to believe but tried to help grow them to discover God, His Word and the application of His Word to their own lives. I think it's worth having the discussion for our sakes and for others. One of the things I have learned in years of ministry and walking with Christ is I have a lot more to learn and I am don't look as much like Christ as I thought I was years ago. The closer I get to Christ the more I see how I need to grow to be like Him.
I say that to say, thanks for asking a difficult question that probably got some terse answers. It's worth the asking!
WT, I have always enjoyed your channel for many years now and my question is in past couple of videos you have talked about how auditioning and how a person needs to be qualified “talented” to be part of the worship team at your church. But it would seem to me that the first qualification isn’t how great a person can shred on their guitar, or play drums or sing on perfect pitch. The first qualification should be do they have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Without that they are singing and playing for something that don’t even know and how can they LEAD others into what they have never experienced. In our heart especially with our friends we want to believe that by allowing them to serve that the Holy Spirit will speak to them and that is commendable, we all want people especially those we love to come and know the Lord, but is it the Lord that is drawing them or just music. Music is powerful and for those of us who like to play even more so. I had a very similar issue with my own daughter and I had to make the hard decision to ask her to step down when she stated that she no longer believed. Bottom line is the answer while difficult to hear is clearly is No. Jam with them outside of the church even with worship type music and witness to them.
Hey James, the audition video was more focused on "talent and excellence", this one is clearly a spiritual question. They are definitely separate topics, however, holistically, both must be evaluated before allowing someone on your team. It all comes down to each ministries expectations and values.
So late, but like they said, where do you draw the line? Are they allowed to serve in the parking? As greeters? As anything else? We’re not just talking music in the end. Serving in the church is done in the body of Christ, so it includes all aspect.
I'm in the "We are all worship leaders" camp, especially if we're on stage, and you have to have been coming to our church regularly for six months before taking up ANY role, so we wouldn't be having non-Christians on the team. But I get that others have different stands, and I hope that works for them.
Dudes- Ben Forehand! Have you heard his testimony? His testimony episode on the Worship Online Podcast left me in tears. He took a church gig as a non-believer. The rest is how God does what he does....
This is something I am currently wrestling hard with.
I, right now, have decided the answer for me and my team is no. Just because there is no Biblical example or precedent for an unbeliever helping lead Israel or the Body in worship. I don't think I can tell my team "You are worship leaders" in the same breath say "You don't have to be a Christian."
But I totally get the very missional opportunity that having unbelievers on the team can provide.
Guess the big thing with non believers in a worship team, is the fear of them worshipping the music instead of God. If you are a none believer, yet humble and respectful of a church and its members, and are not in it to just be known for playing so amazingly. Maybe just do a heart check with someone :)
Because I know there can be hardcore christians out there who pretend to be in it for Jesus but their heart is full of pride and selfishness.
I think that God's love described in English words, or any words for that matter is really hard to explain. A lot things that God does for the sake of loving us do not make sense to us. I know that it's all intentional for Him. This song as a whole, tells us that God loves us more than we can understand or describe, and quite frankly sometimes his love for us doesn't make sense. At the end of the day when I here this song I think "God loves me more than I will ever know." We I was his foe, still he fought for me. When I was a sinner he died for me. I think anyone who hears this song comes closer to understanding that. I think that's a win for this song. At the end of the day we waste a lot of time debating one word. I wish sometimes we focused more attention and more of our voice on bigger issues in this world, like injustice, poverty and racism, instead of debating about 1 word in a worship song. I just realized I spent 10 min writing this comment. I hope it wasn't a waste either.
Hey guys! Thank you for this video!
My story is VERY similar to what you shared.
I’m a worship leader and I was really struggling about a year ago to welcome a high schooler onto my church’s youth worship team. At that point, I knew him, but I hadn’t seen him at youth group or church consistently in years and it seemed like he would only be coming back to youth because he’d be able to play an instrument. I had no way of knowing if he was a follower at this point in his life and I didn’t even know who he really was at this time. I wrestled with this decision and I was talking to the youth pastor and he encouraged me to welcome him in after I prayed about it because it would help him come consistently and, God willing, it would allow the Holy Spirit to move in him, but I saw him playing cajon as just a reason to make him come to youth group when he should want to come to grow in his relationship with Christ. After praying, I welcomed him onto the team and he has been coming every single week to youth group, joyfully serving, and growing deeply in his faith and even reaching out to his other friends to come to youth. I recorded his testimony months ago and he saw that experience of coming onto the worship team as a monumental point in his faith.
I was in a pretty unique situation. I came to church because I wanted to believe in God becuase I felt His presence before, but I struggled with faith and I hadn't given my life to Jesus at that point in time. I was asked to serve the third time i went there because the keys player couldn't make it. I've since believed in Jesus, given my life to Him and while becoming part of the team didn't suddenly make me christian it sure helped in the process.
EDIT: It was for our church's youth group. Main church wouldn't allow that.
I feel that praise and worship in the church is a ministry for the Lord first and should be presented holy unto the Lord. However, I do feel, if they have an open heart, you could take them to practice with you and maybe let them play a song or too as to create a friendship but the team should be Holy unto the Lord I feel. But God bless you guys for sure!!
I'm a worship leader and the standard for any platform ministry is 1. Salvation is mandatory 2. Come to church 6 months. Platform ministry should be held to higher standards then a member because people can misrepresent your church and God can damage other new comers and older converts in the church. Talent is second to these standards. Platform ministry is different then serving as a volunteer. So we love to evolve new comers and nonbelievers in volunteer service and the standard for platform ministry is a little higher.
I highly disagree with this.. why on earth would any pastor want a agnostic atheist playing any instrument on their worship team?! It’s not about being judgmental.. it’s more about the spirit leading the congregation and if there’s one person that isn’t in it for the same purpose of leading what other reason are they up there for? Especially if you are against God completely
We are to Judge:
24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
I personally would have no problem with non-christians being on a praise team. As long as the one(s) who are leading the praise team are believers then I'd have no problem with non-christians in supporting roles in the praise band.
But there are two things I could notice in a band accepting non-Christian band members.
When they pray before the service, the non Christians may drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, whatever.
And the non Christians can't follow, when the band walks into God's office.
Hi guys. Good topic. I believe in reaching out to the lost. Be creative and draw in those unsaved musicians and artists. Create places and times to interact with them and show them the love of God. Have jam sessions and artists evenings. You don't need to put that person in your worship team to do that.
As I watched this video (the day it came out(I wanted to think some about it before responding ) ), I saw another of your videos on the side bar about auditions. Let's say a guy comes to your audition and loves Jesus, but has no sense of rhythm, and can't carry a tune. Are you going to hesitate in judging his ability? Isn't his relationship with Christ more important than his musical ability?
Perhaps a compromise: how about allowing people to sit in on practices and jam sessions but not actually lead in worship? Couldn't you mentor them in either deficiency? Paul talks about not giving new Christians positions of authority so that it doesn't go to their head and cause them to stumble. If that's how he feels about new Christians, I'm thinking non-Christians are right out.
So maybe your practice times can serve the double purpose of outreach, but worship is worship, you know?!?
Thank you for stepping out on this and inviting this conversation.
Hi Ian From South Africa. I am a beginner guitar player that serves on our worship team at church. I believe that worship is a ministry where we seek God to move among us with our praise and worship. I also believe that worship goes hand in hand with the prophetic gift. So I believe that one should be a Christian to serve on worship team. I do however believe that I should work hard at improving my guitar skills so that I can worship more while playing guitar.
Meanwhile I lead a worship band and put this topic in our WhatsApp group and one person disagreed and our pastor has to say "of course, Christians should be in the worship band" and the person who disagreed with me could say yes. When I asked the person to this, he says, I would exclude Christians, when I speak about reborn ones.
the answer is no. Can't lead someone where you aren't or havent been. anyone on stage is a worship leader, leading worship. pointing to God. Also have to think what theyre doing off stage to reflect the ministry. "Oh you play for so and so church and youre an atheist? must not be a good church if even their leadership doesnt believe in Christ."
point still stands for non believers. "oh so youre a leader at so and so church and you don't know if you believe in God or what you believe in? Must not be a good church where the Holy Spirit is active."
Brendan Mac it was an example :)
"Oh, so you're a leader at so and so church and say you believe in God; yet, you're out here doing the very things that people who do not believe in God are doing..." People who profess Christ, yet live a life that doesn't resemble Christ in the slightest way, do more damage to the cause, then allowing a non-Christian to play in the band, imo. This is where we need to be careful. A good point was brought up in the video: for the person who is "on the edge," considering following Christ; will allowing them to play, help them be drawn to Jesus? The person who is a believer (or claims to be), on the worship team, yet living a life that is contradictory to what they say...are they drawing people to Jesus? Maybe, just maybe, the response from someone for the church allowing a person who is not a believer, to play, would be, "Wow, you're not sure what you believe, and they're letting you play? Sounds like they're not judgmental. Maybe I'll come and hear you play sometime." While caution should be exercised, I believe God can use a situation like this to show his love to someone, through those in church and on the worship team, and be drawn to him. Each church should make their own decision on these kinds of things, with the leading of the Holy Spirit.
"anyone on stage is a leader" This is an opinion. There is no blueprint in the Bible that says how and who can take part in a modern worship team. We like to start with a biblical principal, take it down a logic chain and treat the outcome with the same authority as the original biblical point we started from. The Bible says 'A' so, logically, 'B' must be true as well. And if 'A' leads to 'B', then 'C' must be the truth as too... and so on, and so on. The next thing you know we are teaching 'W' as biblical truth, even though the Bible says nothing about 'W'.
I think the leader is the leader, the rest of the team is supporting him, and a non-believer can still support the leader. God can still move through anyone who is not trying to actively work against him. As far as the 'optics' of having a non-believer on the worship team, who cares what other people think. We're talking about worship, not politics.
@@Mravobike
The person doesn't follow Jesus Christ, isn't saved. As long, the person doesn't turn to Jesus, it doesn't help, when she or he plays the instrument, serves in the church and so on. This doesn't save.
In German we have the saying "To preach water and to drink wine", what means preach something and not to do it. One leads many people closer to God, but not himself, how should this work?
The last weeks I found two announcements in my city, where worship teams look for musicians and when I asked "Is this for Christians only" they replied "No, you have not to be Christian"...
You guys need to switch places! Lol
Thanks for the conversation. We never know the hearts of others or how God is working in their lives. Hey serving by playing gets that individual in church every Sunday and in unity with believers!
I’m 79, recently retired chiropractor after 55 years, and wanting to have another praise and worship team for our church after previous team 20 years ago. I play alto sax, some vocal and rhythm guitar. Previous group had Wednesday evening programs drawing 100 youth, of which 50 would attend Sunday worship. Our leader became a a pastor and moved on. The program eventually failed to be supported and was discontinued. I felt I could bring back a really quality team, one supported by the current pastor and the aging congregation, many of whom just want traditional. We are in SW OKLAHOMA, an old church with challenges, so church growth and attracting youth are very important from my view.
I am not real skilled with internet, and I play mostly by ear since 1960 with multiple rock, R&B, country, contemporary christian, gospel. At any rate, after watching your videos I since my learning curve is quite steep. So, any other suggestions you may have for this middle aged guy would be helpful. Any way, thanks for what you have contributed to the christian community and may God continue to bless you and the lives you touch.
Fred Phillips, DC.
Hey guys! I think this is a great question.
I was that kid. Complete non-believer didnt know this God guy and this Jesus dude. Starting off, I'm a vocalist. But, I started gaining interest in drums through middle school. Fast forward to my mom finding me a drum kit. I had NOWHERE to play it. But the church down the street needed a drum kit and I had one so I ended up playing drums at the church cause they desperately needed one. No audition, the worship leader knew I was a trouble maker, pot smoker. There once was conflict with some members that I was not a believer and that I shouldn't be on the team, but I heard that a gentleman cut that tention in half saying, "Sure he may not be a believer. But, God put him here with us. He could be anywhere else, yet he is right here WITH US! Is it not cool to see how God is working in him?" Fast forward to Now.
I've been involved with a wonderful young church. With AMAZING people. I'm locked in the music ministry. I've played drums, percussion, lead/backup vocal, lighting, sound guy and somehow now I'm the bass player as of right now. God has been working on/in me since I was 11. And I didnt truly find him and realize him working in me until I was 18. I'm 23. I'm very thankful for that one man who gave me a chance to serve. I attend Harbor Church on Cape cod in Massachusetts. Couldn't be happier. That's my story. Thanks for letting me share it!
For all the “no”s out there please remember the great things God can do through anyone. When Jacob was beaten and left for dead remember it was the Ishmaelites that brought him to Egypt from the brink of death. God can work in mysterious ways. We should pray for discernment in our decisions. Every situation is different.
To what scripture is you comment to be read please
Uh...what? Do you mean Joseph sold by the Ishmaelites into slavery in Egypt or the parable of the good Samaritan or are you referring to some story not in the Bible?
I agree with many of the comments that I have read here. Worship is the root of the worship team. Those who worship the father must worship Him in spirit and in truth. An unbeliever can do none of those things.
Furthermore, we know that man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. With this in mind what will the Lord think when he sees an unbeliever on the worship team, whose heart is not about worshipping him, but just about playing music? And more so, what will the Lord think of the leader that chooses to put unbelievers in their worship team just to get a certain musical sound, rather than putting Spirit-filled worshippers on the worship team to truly Worship the Lord?
My worship team is very small. I play in a military band in DC and am surrounded by amazing musicians of all different talents. I myself am a brass player but lead worship on guitar and vocals. I brought in a colleague (a bass player from my cover band, a sax player from our "day job") to cover a bass part. He's come in many times to fill the bass spot. He ended up taking communion at one point. Who knew.... The seed may or may not have been planted.
I agree that it is case by case. If your worship team reflects Jesus, the “not yet believer” will soon encounter Christ. I and many of my co-worship leaders have been filled with the Spirit through being shown grace by a church/worship team member.
Hi Gents! You make some good points as we consider the difference in using different folks in other areas of service in the church, but I think we tread in dangerous waters if we use non-believers on the worship team.
Like our pastors who share God's Word, we would never ask a non-believer, even a well-versed (non-believing) theologian to step into the pastor's role and minister front and center to the church body.
In addition, many times after service, we have an opportunity as members of the worship team to interact with the body, often ministering to and praying with individuals.
The examples we see in the earthly life of Jesus using non-believers primarily involve who He ministered to rather than who He ministered with, so I don't see how that applies to the use of non-believing talent on the worship team.
I suppose there are exceptions to such rules, but I think that would be the point in itself, it would have to an exception rather than the rule, and not using non-believers should be the rule even when considering the exception.
Thank you for the tutorials over the years, they have helped me immensely in my own ministry opportunities. Blessings to you both brothers.
Good topic and good point of view. I serve on a worship team as a bass player. Since I discovered your channel, I have been devouring your videos. You bring a lot of great and useful content. I hope you keep it coming. Incidentally, I first found your channel because I was looking for POD Go presets for acoustic guitar. Thank you!
Of course, I hold that the LEADER has to be a Christian. But, I also think that a non-christian musician can still support the leader as he leads. If the person is not actively working against the spirit of God, God can still work through him. And maybe allowing the non-believer to play on a team is the catalyst that brings him to know God
I say being a Non Christian apart of the worship team can draw you closer to God but I think the people worshiping not on the worship team bring in the Holy Spirit by lifting their hands and praising not just the worship team I thinks it’s a topic you need to pray and ask God for this answer
Great topic.I love that you are talking about REAL stuff.
Thanks!
at 5:00 you note that some non-christians looks more happy than christians. Be careful with this aspect. God looks the heart when human looks at the outside.
Worship is a service. How can a non-beliver can serve for a service of God? There is no judment in that way, because only God guide to the service to God, no one else.
Does God need the greatest artist of the world for the best worship?
Quality music is something great and beautiful. Worship service by true God servant missioned by God is 100% the good plan to prefer.
Also, I am agree that for some particular case, lines can move and some exeption can be allow. That is very specific. But please do not make that as a normal or classic way. Because it is only special and guide by God in the heart of the worship/church team.
Continue like this guys. Bless you.
Interesting questions. Let me pose a few.
1. Would you allow a non-Christain to speak in front of your congregation each week? What if they are a talented speaker? What if they had great skills and the ability to inspire. What if they could offer a positive experience? What if they connected with people and motivate others?
2. What would then be the incentive to want to be a Christain and live a sacrificial life for Christ, if you are given a position of prominence without the sacrifice and or the calling that is often associated with such a visible position of leadership?
3. Does the purpose of putting a "very talented" non-beliving musician in a position of leadership benefit the non-believer? Or the worship team?
4. Would there even be a consideration for a non-Christian musician to be on a worship team if their talents were far less than that of a believer who wanted the same position?
5. What other leadership positions would you be comfortable allowing a non-Christian to hold? Plumbers, traffic help, electricians, etc. Not exactly leadership positions.
6. How would one see this approach any different than those criticized for missionary dating?
7. Where else in the bible are we told to put the cart before the horse? Even if it's a very talented cart?
Again, just my own observations. But it seems this discussion often centers around the "amount of talent" the non-Christian holds. For some church's this often seems to be the only determining factor as to whether someone should be allowed to participate in one of the church's most visible ministries, regardless whether the person is a believer or not.
It also seems like a missed opportunity for the non-Christain musician. God's timing is perfect. If someone who is a non-Christain musician truly wants to be part of a worship ministry, perhaps patients should be the priority. Share with them. Study with them. Mentor them. I mean this is a position of leadership.
It's been my experience that rarely does the non-Christain seek out a Christain worship band. It seems that it's usually the other way around and that it's worship band that seeks out the 'talented" non-Christain musician. So perhaps motives should be clarified when pursuing such a venture.
That being said. I had a very talented friend who was a non-Christain musician and he had been invited to play with several worship bands. Which he did. Almost a decade later I found out that he had recently given his life to Christ. Glory to God!! AMEN!! Can it happen? Yes, it can. But having someone who you choose to lead your congregation for years who does not know Christ. Should that be the exception or the rule? And why then should it be the exception?
I got invited to the worship team of our church. At that time I would have called myself a christian, yet I barely knew (about) Jesus. I would only go to church to play in the band, but it was a reason to keep coming to church. A few years later I got more involved in studies given by our church and it changed me. I would not know Jesus if I didn't stick around for the band. I encourage non-christians and teens to play in the band so that the same might happen to them. For slingers it's a little different I think. They have to sing from their heart. Singers should mean what they sing more than other band members
Thanks for sharing Dennis!
My personal conviction on this issue is that I want musicians invested in the church and not the worship team. So not only would I not allow non-Christians on the team, I also would not allow non-members to function as regularly musicians on a worship team.
I have seen musicians who when no longer involved in the worship team, or not scheduled not attending church. I have an issue with this because I value invested in the church community as greater than musicianship.
This is a very nuanced discussion. But, at the end of the day, my opinion is that it would cause a hindrance to the move of the Holy Spirit.
Someone took a chance on me when I was 14. And God has been using me ever since. He used music, to draw me closer to Him. You don't know the plan that God has, because we are limited in our thinking. He uses non conventional ways to change people. Let the Holy Spirit change this person and let your testimony be a way for this person to see Jesus in how you worship.
This conversation reminds me of similar ones around the topic of "should I date a non-Christian guy/girl". I hear a lot of "God can/in hindsight did use the situation" there as well. Not sure if I agree.
Also, this could also be extrapolated to "Should we allow LGBTQ (Christian or not) musicians on the worship team?"
So good approach to this question!! I totally agree with you!
I’d answer this question with another question. Does God want to be worshiped in a particular way? It seems to me even from Cain and Abel all the way to Ananias and Sapphira that the answer is yes. Some worship was found acceptable and some was not. I see the good in what a lot of people in the comments have said about how they came to know the Lord through their worship teams and I’m so glad they came to know the Lord!!! But God can use anything to bring himself glory. That doesn’t mean anything is acceptable. As a worship leader myself I believe my team is modeling worship for everyone in the congregation. I’m talking about everything that we do on the platform on a Sunday. If my team isn’t involved in daily worship of our creator in things like prayer, confession, dying daily to sin etc. then when I put them up on the platform to lead/play/sing, what I, and the church, communicate to the congregation is that following Jesus just isn’t very important to us.
Non Christians should not be allowed on the worship team. It IS a yes or no answer. Can non Christian worship? No. Should they assist in leading worship? No. Here is a great article: www.desiringgod.org/articles/should-non-christians-lead-worship
"Can non Christian worship? No" ... So if a friend of yours, who wasn't a Christian, came over to your house while you were having a Bible study, and you had an acoustic worship time, and he decided he wanted to sing How Great Is Our God with you... you're saying he couldn't worship? Would you ask him to leave? Just curious...
Well, it isn't wrong for non Christians to sing along or play along to Christian songs. However, they shouldn't be allowed to lead a group or a congregation into praise and worship as this "non Christian" wouldn't have encountered God in their lives yet. How can you lead if you aren't yet a follower?
That's just a biblical fact. Unbelievers CAN'T worship God. Can they sing along to our songs in worship? Yes. But they're not worshiping God. I'm not saying unbelievers shouldn't be allowed in our churches or invited to our Bible studies to get them saved. Of course they should. I'm just saying that unbelievers should NEVER be allowed on worship teams...because they CAN'T worship. Only when we become followers of Jesus can we worship God rightly. And the worship team that's leading the congregation in the worship of the Living God should ALWAYS be staffed with worshiping believers. No matter how talented an unbeliever may be.
Truth.
Amen!! The bible calls us to be “like minded” and those who dont believe in His death/resurrection/Ascension should never serve the body of Christ. Galatians 5:9 a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
The worship ministry is a place of leadership
I think it is possible to have a non-christian band members, depending on their demeanor. That non-christian came to Christ in some form. Eventually with all the love and prayers, not to mention maybe listening to God's word will open the doors for someone to accept Jesus Christ. It surely open the door for praise and worship in their heart through their talent. Although ideally it is preferred to have christian band members, we can't close the door on non-christian wanting to serve Christ. Once that door is opened, God can do amazing things. Praise God for open doors, otherwise I wouldn't have formed a relationship with God!
"Worshiping Jesus together may be the single most important thing we do. It plays an indispensable role in rekindling our spiritual fire, and keeping it burning." David Mathis from DesiringGod.org Awesome start to an article he wrote. www.desiringgod.org/articles/five-benefits-of-corporate-worship
I've had a lot of thoughts back and forth on this over the past years. Originally, i was very adamant about the worship team having to be all confessing Christians but over the past year or so my thoughts have changed. Like you mentioned, if someone is the polar opposite of the band, a satanist (to be extreme), then no they shouldn't. However, you may have team members that are confessing Christians that lead lives not indicative of Christ. Yes, a pastor and the church's mission should be taken into consideration in all this. I think it is also important to look at the individual. It would be best that their lives, even if not Christian, displayed soundness of mind (not someone that spends Saturday night in a police car and then shows up Sunday for worship.
Looking past all of it to the center of it all, God can use anyone, even those who aren't Christian. God hardened the heart of Pharaoh when Moses spoke to him, so that God would gain glory for Himself. I think even if someone thinks they're just doing it because of the music, God can use them and even use that as a door into their lives. Think of the parable of talents: The servants each had talents and used them, but they weren't their talents to begin with, it was an investment by the master. The servants invested and made more of it. God gave them all voices, ability to play, tech skills, and even things beyond worship if they choose to use them then good.
This video gave me a lot of thoughts on the subject and I'm glad ya'll hit even the hard questions. I think it does come down to prayer and who the individual is. We have to follow the call of God, even when it seems nuts. We're trying to make praises but we can't ignore the call of the gospel. Thank you, for your work.
My first question is to all who have cast a definitive NO answer to this question is "Who is to be held responsible to verify and make judgement as to the status of someone else's salvation? I do expect and certainly hope that the worship leader is in a committed relationship with Christ, but every individiual is at a different place in their relationship to Christ. And that relationship may vary from time to time. If a person is wanting to serve as a musician in a worship/praise team, that makes me tend to think that maybe they are on a personal quest for something more in their relationship with God. I have personally seen musicians that have turned their lives around by being involved in Christian music. I think we can all agree that music is a powerful medium that can touch the human heart. I would much rather see a musician being used in a church setting where hopefully he is surrounded by other Christians in ministry that can lift that person up in prayer and fellowship. Consider the alternative: Musicians are going to perform somewhere because it is just in their nature. If not surrounded a body of believers where he can be spiritually nourished by the body, then they are going to find other avenues to use that talent. Would it not be better to play in church than in that club down the road?
Secondly, in addition to being a Worship Leader, I am also the choir director at my church. Would you make the same requirement for members of the choir? I can tell you with great probability, that in the many years of directing church music that there have been quite a few choir members that probably do not have a personal relationship with God. I personally do not want (nor am I qualified) to make a judgement call on whether or not someone is a "good enough" Christian to serve in any capacity within the church.
Also, who says that God cannot or will not use persons who are "unbelievers" to exact his will. Christ Himself illustrates the value of such people in his response to the expert in the law found in Luke 10:30-37, the story of the good samaritan who was not a believer in the One True God. Yet Jesus Himself agreed with the expert that this man was more of a neighbor than the priest or levite, because of his actions of mercy.
Lastly, I pose the question "Is the church only for those who are saved? That would kind of defeat one of the main purposes of the church. Christ told us "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations" (Matt 28:19) NIV.
At my church we believe that everyone who serves in any area of ministry should be a spirit-filled Christian. That includes ushers, teachers, and especially worship leaders. How can a non-believer even worship a God they don't know? They'll just be playing but they won't be worshipping, and I believe that hinders the move of the Spirit.
There’s no vicinity in our church that will let a nonbeliever serve in a ministry. But we’re not snobs about it. But regardless of how nice you are, our ministry is a service. It’s one thing if it’s hired people to repair something, but another thing if you are serving in the church. The Holy Spirit can use anyone, and God can call anyone, but saved or not saved, we measure where the heart is. And we’re relaxed but there are statutes we follow. Biblical.
I agree that the Lords mercy and grace is wonderful.
Lets remember brothers and sisters that the word of God says the the Lord has mercy on who He wants to (Romans 9:18).
And what about keeping the altar holy, not only our Spirit,Soul, and body but the stage where as Pastors, Leaders, Worshipers we have the responsibility to make sure that the body of Christ is being ministered by the Holy Spirit and not an outside source.
@WorshipTutorials
1 Corinthians 4:15 : So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.
i am brazilian and all i can say is that to allow a non-christian on worship team sounds an absolutely crazyyy thing. I think the only way for you to considering it as a possibility is if you consider the worship time in our services as a simply music concert whithout any spiritual significance. Let me ask a question: Should we allow non-Christians on the pastoring team? cause this is the next question you will make in 5 or 10 years. For me, even this topic is an completely absurd.
The Bible is pretty clear about pastor leadership and the requirements of it, but the question churches should ask is whether a guitar player or drummer is part of 'pastoral leadership'. For some, it may be a clear yes, but for others, maybe not. Another question to ask is whether you'd allow a non-believer to serve as a greeter or to help with facilities upkeep. Again - some churches may be very clear on this, but others may not.
We don't claim to have the answer to this question (we stated that right from the beginning), but we do feel it's a little more complicated that a simple yes or no. Thanks!
Let’s be real honest jesus taught peter and James to fish I was asked to park cars on a Sunday but really feel like I was not being used I’m no longer at that church and I paid tithes to them but now I don’t attend church st all
Great question. I think in the end it is situational, and no matter what side of the fence you sit on you will occasionally be wrong. :) In my mind it depends on the mindset of the person wanting to join the team. Are they doing it for their glory, or for the glory of God? Do they understand that the band is not the centerpiece of the church, but is there to 'prepare' the audience to hear the message? I think it is absolutely ok to have someone seeking Christ on the worship team, but it is the duty of the Worship Leader to filter out those that might be simply looking for a gig versus those that are there to help the mission/themselves. One exception might be hiring a temporary working musician to fill a role while seeking a full-timer--but even in that situation you might bring that musician into the fold! :) In the end I'd would probably hire a mediocre musician with a thirst for Christ than a pro that is there just to 'jam.'