have you read the DS9 companion? People were getting ill cause of the heat in this episode. and Dax's actress is allergic to strong sunlight, so that's why she "got injured"
I love Rematiklan's reaction when Sisko tells him he's been betrayed at 1:20 . He turns around and he doesn't look shocked, more like disappointment & understanding. The actor did a fantastic job expressing that through his heavy make-up.
I find that this gives the scene much more meaning. A life lost just because the Jem'Hardar were programmed this way. She would still be alive if the Jem'Hardar would have surrendered
Lucky shots still happen. This is the loss in the no lose situation. You're not taught that one by Starfleet. You're taught the no win situation. Only one person has ever won the no win situation.
Can't help but pity the Jem'Hadar. They are way smarter and aware of things than people give them credit for, yet they still remain loyal out of an intense sense of honor. I think the group leader here was honestly in agreement with Sisko, and wanted to take the deal.
Remata'Klan wanted a way out of his joyless existence. Like more than a few other Jem'Hadar, some come to really hate what they are and the disgusting Vorta they have to follow. He finds his way out here with this suicide of his whole unit.
The more I think about it, the more disloyal Rematiklan was. The Founders _wanted_ Keevan to die here. That is why they gave them suicide implants in the first place. As leader, it was Remats job to kill him- Instead he comited suicide, allowing Keevan to escape to be taken alive.
@@christopherg2347 if he were the Jem'Hadar first, I would agree with you. He is not. He was Third. It is not his job to kill the Vorta for betraying the Founders. And he knows that.
No. No didn't just because a thing doesn't hold the same values as you, doesn't make your point of view on its reality more "right" (oh God, I sound like one of those purple haired land whales that Critical Drinker goes on about) You cannot read the thoughts of the soldier, but he feels justified in what hes doing. And if you're going to give you're life as a soldier for a cause, that's the really about the best you can hope for.
Remata'Klan should have described Keevan's actions as : "Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!" "I am shocked and chagrined!" "Mortified and Stupefied!"
"I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend." - Romulan Commander, Star Trek: The Original Series, "Balance of Terror"
Remata'Klan shows something you don't normally see in a Jem'Hadar this entire episode. Worry and weariness. Quite a few times in DS9, you come across Jem'Hadar who are more than what they were designed to be, and are coming into conflict with who they are. Ika'Tika who yields to Worf out of great respect for Worf's honor, and gets gunned down. Garranagar, who convinces his whole unit to try and break free of the Dominion and get off the white. Omet'iklan who kills his own Vorta while his entire unit watches because he can no longer follow the orders of one so despicable. Remata'Klan shows a great weariness for his joyless existence and having to take orders from Kee'Van. And in this scene he's found a way out, and deliberately gets himself and his entire unit killed to escape his dreary and torturous existence as a Jem'Hadar soldier. Your usual Jem'Hadar has the look of power with their million mile stare. Remata"Klan's is just used up and tired. Like he's wanted a way out for a long time.
4:25 man, you know Sisko wanted to say 'get this _thing_ against a rock and vaporize him!' but upheld his principles. Avery really conveyed the sheer disgust Sisko held for Keevan. Brilliant acting and direction.
I love the small moment at 4:07. After negotiations have failed and the fighting over with the dead still warm, Sisko sees the Vorta walking over to them, unarmed having willfully sold out his own men to save himself and is seriously contemplating shooting him out of pure disgust for how slimy and self serving the Vorta was.
He was certainly a lot closer to the Jem'Hadar than the Vorta. Soldiers with honor fighting because the Vorta and their masters demand it, not because they by themself would have to fight and kill each other. War never changes.
It makes Keevan's death all the more satisfying, considering how embarrassing and disgraceful things ended for him: shot on accident by a bunch of bumbling Ferengi, turned into a literal meat puppet, then abandoned in a hallway on a derelict station to continually bump into the same wall until either the implants lost power, or his body simply stopped working mechanically. When I saw that episode, I thought of this moment and thought "yeah Keevan, that's what you get; at least if you'd have died on that planet with your men, that would've had dignity. You died like you lived, like a bitch".
I also really enjoyed the moment immediately preceding it. The shooting has stopped, the Jem'Hadar have all fallen over. But O'Brien, the veteran, is still in cover, and still watching for danger. Everyone else has relaxed and assumed its all over just because the noise has stopped.
I think deep down he wanted too go with Sisko, but he knew that not only would it be a hard sell to his own men, but will ultimately be pointless because he has got nothing else to live for but death, honor and his addiction to the white. He would rather have gone down fighting than live a second longer.
@@rowlandbuck2703 nah. He did it purely out of respect to Sisko but he never had any intent but to die in combat. Seems to me there were a few things he wanted to get off his chest before his death.
I think it's slightly more complicated than that. He was in disgrace in the eyes of his people and his (for lack of a better term) country. Death for his perceived errors was the only path to redemption in his mind. Had they won the day instead and returned home, it's highly likely that the scumbag Vorta would have painted them all as disobedient, or at the very least incompetent, for getting them in this situation. And we know the Dominion's consequences for failure. So from his perspective, dying honorably by following orders was really the only way open to him. I think that's what he was trying to tell Sisko in the end.
3:49 I know this is mostly meant to illustrate that the meaningless loss of life affected both sides, but in another way I feel like it illustrates just how frighteningly effective the jem'hadar are as soldiers. Think about it. The jem'hadar were out in the open with no cover, facing an opponent on high ground in full cover with a near ideal killzone on the lower ground, and the jem'hadar STILL managed to kill one enemy combatant before they were all cut down. Add on top of that that this particular group of jem'hadar was also effectively starving and not fighting at full strength and it really puts into perspective why these guys are some of the most feared soldiers in both the Gamma and Alpha quadrants
I love that they give the Jem Hadar strong morals and beliefs that are different but understandable and able to be respected. They are clones but yet each one has it's own personality. Perfect contrast to the Vorta who have strong beliefs but ooze slime and are not respected by anyone, only obeyed.
More than likely vorta are proxy between the Jem’ Hadar so that when a unit has “lost discipline”, run out of white or whatever, a vorta dies instead of a founder.
The Vorta are the Managerial Elite, who run things on behalf of the owners/founders. Everyone in Academia, Journalism, and Human Resources is a Vorta in real-life.
One of the most effective anti-war scenes in this show. The good guys have defeated the bad guys, but there was no honour in it, there's no sense of glory, no one is celebrating. The main cast was essentially reduced to an execution squad here. In terms of Sisko having to violate his most fundamental personal principles to protect the society and values he holds dear, this episode is in my opinion just as poignant and powerful as In The Pale Moonlight.
3:33......Garak is the only one who seems to wear an expression on his face that betrays absolutely no regret at what he just had to do. Those eyes - he killed them and didn't have ANY reservations. All the Starfleet officers bear masks of 'oh this is awful. Ohh I feel so guilty for what I have done' type faces.
My favorite line Garak said in this episode was..."Wrong Doctor, HUMANS have rules for war, rules that tend to make wining that much harder"....spoken like a true assasin.
Which makes sense for a man who once considered shooting Gul Dukat in the back in a battle where they were fighting side by side and only decided against it because there were too many Klingons left to fight
what I find interesting is the Vorta's perspective is never really fully understood. He can't save his men. He doesn't have the resources necessary. They are going to go crazy and die horribly. I think he believed he was doing the right thing FOR THEM. An honorable death in the service of the Founders at the hands a real enemy of the Dominion. Maybe they even take one or two with them.
The Jem'Hedar (sp?) buried with respect by fellow soldiers who will remember and mourn them. Their Vorta, killed by a negligent discharge by a Ferangi and then pupated by medical devices, left to bump into a wall until his body gave out and rotted on an abandoned space station.
I take some satisfaction in what happens to him, though l personally think he deserved to be handed back to the Dominion as they would have made him suffer far more
It was a truly awful episode, nothing remotely funny about it with a bunch of annoying characters and an awful wooden guest star who really should've been Weyoun wirh Jeff Combs in duel roles as both Brunt and Weyoun and it shoyld've been more serious than it was considering we never saw or heard from Yelgrin again after it. A pointless filler episode.
@@ValiantWrestling Filler episodes were one of the beautiful things about DS9 and this era of TV, getting to spend so much time with characters including their silly holodeck hijinks or whatever, getting fun downtime episodes to take a breath, that it mattered that much more when they were in dire situations. There were lows, sure, but there were soaring heights too. The era of mini-series shows is great and all, but it flattens a show when you have to make every episode in service of one large plot and only have 10 episodes to do it.
The fact that someone still dies on the Starfleet side when they've been given every advantage and the enemy is resigned to death is some of the most compelling proof of what excellent soldiers the Jem'Hadar were made to be; Even with all the odds against them, they still claim a life.
Remataklan steals the scene of course, but sisko has so many good moments here as well. Avery brooks was at the height of his game here. The look around at the sun and sea when he asks if remataklan wants to give up his life, the way he delivers that defeated line "all the wrong things..." And the moment he considers shooting keevan upon seeing them. Hmm, there is a reason this is considered one of the best episodes in all of trek.
"Did you receive your white in your normal fashion?" "They made the vial. You didn't make the vial, did you? Then, some of the vials broke." "They didn't give you enough vials? That is outrageous, egregious, preposterous!! It is in violation of the Jem'Hadar's rights as consumers."
Deep Space 9 has scenes better than anything in TNG, and this is one of them. Also, I know Worf said otherwise, but the Jem'Hadar are more honorable than the Klingons.
At 1:22 : Remata'Klan should have described Keevan's actions as : "Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!" "I am shocked and chagrined!" "Mortified and Stupefied!" "Flouting the Dominion's Conventions!"
I feel like a Starfleet officer's favourite tactic is to use reason and diplomacy to avoid conflict and quite often we see it working but it fails spectacularly here. The Jem'Hadar and the Dominion dont tend to listen to the whole moralising speech routine.
It's a great tragedy, and acted well. But Sisko appealed to him wrong. He's trying to get him to betray the Founders, which he won't do. If he'd argued that dying pointlessly will not serve the Dominion he might have had a chance.
Well yeah Weyoun would have done better but that's kind of the point of Keevan here. He's a sneaky, dishonest little shit that clearly doesn't give a fuck about the Jem'Hadar or the Dominion, he was probably a defective clone.
@@ifound15min35 yeah but he was still serving the dominion, not himself like Keyvon here. Weyoun error was a mistake anyone could have made in that situation. He made the wrong choice in a tough situation, not a selfish choice.
Not really. Dying isn't inherently honorable. The vorta disposed of them like vermin. Sisko would kill those guys without a second thought in a fair fight, but he was understandably hesitant to slaughter them needlessly. They weren't dying for a cause here, they were dying so a coward could live. As enemy soldiers Sisko respects, he has a problem with their lives being thrown away so trivially, and rightly so.
Kevan wasn't consciously trying to do them any favors. He wanted them killed off so he could survive. The fact that it meant they wouldn't suffer and die of drug withdrawal wasn't part of the equation.
@@tenkenrooNot really as a later clone proved he was willing to murder odo to stop a previous Weyoun clone from defecting to the federation and then lied to the female changling about it.
Capt. Sisko says we have phasers locked on every one of you, but there are 10 Jem'hadar below, and his team consists of seven people. Garak was likely a big part of their success in hitting every target.
Speaking as a Star Trek apologist: they probably didn't have them set to wide beam max setting in order not to be slammed with the debris from the short-range explosions. Phasers can only vaporize soft targets completely - at least in the DS9 era.
That piece of s*** vorta doesn't even understand that humans are about to honorably bury their own enemies. This might sound totally weird but Star Trek has made me a better person because of episodes like this. Things that make you think. Moral and ethical dilemmas.
While a fictional story, this is still a good representation of how good and honorable "men" are too often sacrificed on the orders of corrupt lesser "men" based on a sense of duty.
I believe earlier in the episode one of the Jem'Hadar reports he is no longer able to shroud. I can't remember if it was stated or implied that when in withdrawal from the White they cannot concentrate well enough to shroud.
I don't know why Nog was treated as so green in AR558, he had been through many battles in space and on the ground as a core part of the crew of the Enterprises greatest battleship, alongside Siskko who basically fought half of the war himself. He should have been more battlehardened then any of the other soldiers on the ground, PTSD should have been nothing new to him.
I only looked up this clip and came to comment to say that man do I miss the incredible writing of this show. This stuff is Shakespeare compared to the drivel that passes for Trek these days.
Sisko "Have a seat. On earth 100s of years ago dark skinned people such as myself "negros", were slaves. We were bought, sold, beaten, worked to death and murdered with impunity by "white" people. That was the order of things...then. Now I am a commander in Starfleet...the order of things can change."
Phil Morris aka Remata'Klan says, "I likened him to a samurai warrior who is loyal only to his feudal lord, and that's how I played him. His willingness to die, despite Sisko's offer of an alternative is his most honorable moment."
IMO Sisko is responsible for the death of his man. He gave away the element of surprise. It might have led to memorable dialoge but it was wrongheaded to make the offer.
I think out of not just a sense of honor but also bleak hope, he hoped to avoid a showdown altogether because he wanted to save all the Jem'Hadar over Keevan. It would still net him his com unit, potential turncoat soldiers, and take Keevan prisoner anyway.
Jem'Hadar have extremely resilient bodies, such that phaser beams on "stun" intensity had no effect on them. Fighting Jem'Hadar is kill or be killed. During the Dominion War, Federation fighters quickly learned that only lethal settings could be used to stop them. In case you didn't know it was war you're supposed be killing your enemies. That is how you win a war.
@@j.smith1631 No, I think Tony was referring to a subplot in a couple of other episodes (mostly in that episode where the Dominion captures the Defiant and Dax/O'Brien/Bashir save the day from a miniaturized runabout). There was talk of the Founders having introduced a modified series of Jem Hadar, supposedly better-suited to what they had discovered about war in the Alpha Quadrant. (and subtly placing the blame on the older-series JH while omitting the fact that THEY had created them). --- Anyway... the new-model JH that the Vorta leaves in command of Defiant while the Vorta goes on with some other assignment turns out to be major idiot/jerk. Talked a lot of smack about about the "old-timers" reaching the limits of their useful service life, and ridiculing the former commander's recommendations & how he carried out orders. Even "Mr Adventure" from Star Trek III would recognize the need to show more respect for your elders. Anyway, karma being what it was, new-model guy died an ignominious death when the crew retakes the Defiant (which probably wouldn't have happened if he had listened to his predecessor's advice).
That little parlay could have cost the life of one of Sisko's men. Jem'Hadar are still good soldiers even deprived of the white. There was no need to parlay. Should have lit them up when they got into range.
Remata'klan's attitude was very common of Japanese Imperial military. The very word "kamikaze" has it's place in English because of this. The ACTUAL definition of kamikaze (Kami = God, Divinity, Celestial, Holy, etc, Kazu = Wind, breeze, air, sky, etc) has nothing to do with suicide but in our language, we use it to indicate a suicide attack on an enemy. Pre-WW II and until the end, Japanese revered their Emperor as a literal living god, in much the way say Jem'Hadar and Vorta do the founders. As such, their lives were inferior, replaceable and ultimately irrelevant to the will of their gods. Japanese military had a similar concept when it came to the divnity of their emperor. One of the reasons for seppuku was to fail your god was shameful and your life forfeit, so you sacrifice yourself for it. In media, we romanticize this as part of some noble, selfless act when it truth, it is fanatical. There are elements of bushido that are noble and good, but kamikaze and seppuku (I still call it hara-kiri, as seppuku is the WRITTEN form, not the verbal form) are not them. As such, Remata'klan saw his life as irrelevant to the will of the founders, which was that the Jem'Hadar obey the Vorta, which by extension is obendiance to the Founders. People crap on Christianity because we teach that suicide is a sin and all life is important and often reference the WORST historical parts of Christian history while completely IGNORING the good parts of it. Likewise with American history, especially by Americans ourselves. We crap on our history and always seek to find a way to feed our feelings of moral superiority by acting like our own country is beneath us. And yet, kamikaze and seppeku are not among our social norms. Nor is social status accepted in our culture, but it is actually criticized. Today, we Americans revere this attitude of kamikaze and hara-kiri. We honor and revere the Samurai that held social status of superiority over others and saw the life of Japanese second-right to their holy god emperor, including their own lives. We teach in history about the NOBLE and WONDERFUL old Japan that allied with the Nazi's, invaded and occupied Korea and tried to committ genocide on Koreans as if they were such a beautiful country and government, WRONGED by nuclear attacks. And we, the HORRIBLE and AWFUL, BIGOTED racist Americans that bombed two cities instead of doing the RIGHT thing and drawing the war out for more years as every Japanese man, woman and child eagerly seeks to sacrifice their life by fighting to the last one in "honorable" combat. And we talk about the WONDERFUL, MORALLY CORRECT Japan that did NO WRONG with Pearl Harbor, NO WRONG to the Korea people and NO WRONG to ally with the Nazi's. Historians try to claim kamikaze were "devastating" with 80% success in sinking US navy ships, while actual reports state very few ships were sank and the Japanese Imperial Air Force and Navy suffered far more losses. Japanese propaganda at the time claimed kamikaze was very successful, until Japanese military reports proved made public later proved they did very little in sinking ships. A country that devalued human life and we revere it. I see this and I pity people like Remata'klan. I do not see anything noble and good, I see misguidance, misdirection and painfully obvious self-deprecation. To die for your country, your people, your family, WHEN NECESSARY is honorable. To die because you do not value yourself is repulsive to me. I'm glad Japan no longer insists on this and holds more value to life. They no longer invade other Asian countries and try to committ genocide. We, the Americans, DESPERATE to criminalize a politician we dislike, will always try to claim we "still invade and destroy" other countries. And yet, those countries still stand, with their same religions, borders and same culture, albeit more modernized and less involved in attacks like 9/11 or using mustard gas to genocide different religions like Saddam. But in truth, World War II removed the concept of a "god" emperor from Japan and the end of the Samurai put an end to the devaluing of human life. No more seppuku or kamikazi, except in the Yakuza. Korea, albeit split apart into a North and South, now have their own government, their own language remains and their own culture (Although I clearly disagree with the North). Germany no longer has gas chambers for Jews, Catholics, gypsies or gays. Two nukes, two cities destroyed. The rest of Japan spared the war, Korea regained independence, the end of a false god, the end of a social hierarchy that devalued human life and Nazi Germany lost it's most powerful ally which helped end the war sooner and made the end of the Nazi concentration camps much sooner. I don't know about you, but I'd call that...a 'bargain'.
When has mainstream history outside of Japan ever tried to paint Imperial Japan as the good guys? You can think Imperial Japan's government was evil and that the system needed to be overthrown while also thinking it was wrong to deliberately target population centres with no military value and kill tens of thousands of Japanese civilians. Also, the idea of Imperial Japanese soldiers as hyper-disciplined and unthinkingly loyal is not entirely true. Very few people volunteered to be kamikaze pilots. Many had to be almost literally dragged into the cockpit kicking and screaming and some had to fly drunk to do it.
@@Talisguy LITERALLY had to argue with an 8th grade history teacher at a school in Racine, WI at the time. She was 1/4 Japanese, born and raised in Madison WI, identified as Asian-American and declared what the US did destructive and horrid to the Japanese traditional way of life. Was teaching my ex girlfriends little girl that crap.
@@azraelknightquest5754 Dropping two nukes on a country, then occupying it and reshaping it in your image, will have an effect on its culture. So will showing up in a gunboat and forcing that country to trade with you at the point of a cannon. She's not wrong about the US having a significant impact on Japan's cultural development through their actions, and she's allowed to think much of it was negative. Especially since Imperial Japan developed the way it did in response to being forcibly pulled out of its isolation at a time of European colonial dominance of the world: Japan's leaders concluded that the only way to avoid being colonised was to rapidly militarise and industrialise, and become powerful enough to hold its own very quickly. And Japan is not a resource-rich country, so its plans would depend on its ability to conquer territory for resources. Saying that Imperial Japan is all America's fault is a massive oversimplification - a European power would very likely have messed with them if the US hadn't got there first, for one thing - but saying that the US's interactions with Japan have had drastic, and not always positive, effects on its culture isn't wrong. Pointing this out doesn't imply that you don't think Imperial Japan was a racist, imperialist aggressor that seemed to be competing with Nazi Germany to speedrun as many horrifying war crimes as possible.
I agree with you, but there's one glaring mistake: "Nazi Germany lost it's most powerful ally which helped end the war sooner and made the end of the Nazi concentration camps much sooner." The nukes weren't dropped until August 1945, the last Nazi army surrendered in May 1945. The war in Europe was over months before the nuclear bombings. They DID bring about the end of the war, though, and prevented an invasion that was projected to have millions of casualties on both sides.
This is also one of the few times you see how deadly yet nerfed light speed weapons are. It's an instant kill even without disintegration and zero way to duck; Ronald D. Moore even said that the battles would take place miles and miles apart but in reality, it could be half a hemisphere away.
Keevan only had 1 vial of Ketracel-White left and without it The Jem'Hadar would have killed Keevan, all of the Starfleet crew and then killed themselves.
@@zincwing4475 Phil Morris who played Remata'Klan said "I likened him to a samurai warrior who is loyal only to his feudal lord, and that's how I played him. His willingness to die, despite Sisko's offer of an alternative is his most honorable moment."
Jem'Hadar have extremely resilient bodies, such that phaser beams on "stun" intensity had no effect on them. Fighting Jem'Hadar is kill or be killed. During the Dominion War, Federation fighters quickly learned that only lethal settings could be used to stop them. In case you didn't know it was war you're supposed be killing your enemies. That is how you win a war.
One thing makes no sense to me. Why didn't the Federation gang use the stun setting for their phasers? Once all the Jem'hadar were unconscious Bashir could have sedated them until rescue arrived, like Sisko said.
The Jem'Hadar's orders were to attack and die if necessary. Being stunned and captured would force them to commit suicide to avoid being prisoners of war.
Well In this episode, the vorta much like a spiritual leader. And I understand why did not give the rank The First to Rematiklan. Other firsts are more induvidual, and more cunnig. See the first First ,,,who killed Weyoun.
Did it though? DS9's dominion war arc was one of the best longform stories in all the franchise. Feel free to dislike it all you want but your false claim is laughable at best.
@@Archedgar I do not disagree with "best longfrom stories". I disagree with "in all the franchise". Star Trek had an anthology format. Episodes were unrelated so that writers could tell any story they liked. And if someone didn't like an episode, no problem: Next week's episode would be about something else entirely. Then the Dominion War started, and every episode was about the Dominion War, week after week after week. Was it good? That is a matter of taste. For people who like generic war series, it was very good. Was it Star Trek? No. _
@@ricksimon9867 tl;dr You can keep being wrong all you like. It makes no difference to me but if you want to see actual 'not star trek' there are plenty of examples; STD, pakerd, pyke, voyager, etc. Once again, your false claims are simply laughable but I will give you credit for at least trying to properly formulate a premise. It is far more than I expected.
@@Archedgar Choose a lane. It is either "TL;DR" or "your claims are false". It cannot be both. And I know that other Star Trek shows are terrible. They have been all about pewpewpew! pewpewpew! ever since the Dominion War opened those flood gates. I don't even know if "real Star Trek" (those first 13 seasons) was great because they didn't want fight scenes ... or because they simply could not afford fight scenes ... When CGI became cheap, Star Trek died. pewpewpew! pewpewpew! _
@@ricksimon9867 DS9 is the pinnacle of Star Trek. Trek is not about being on a ship going places. It'a about character and story. Examining issues. The Dominion war storyline did this incredibly well. The war itself was just a backdrop for the characters and story.
![[TH]FFWS SEA 2024 Fall - Knockout Stage Day 5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2tl9xkQyyU/mqdefault.jpg)
My boy Sisko wearing three layers of wool in the desert on a sunny day because he’s so cool he doesn’t overheat.
have you read the DS9 companion? People were getting ill cause of the heat in this episode. and Dax's actress is allergic to strong sunlight, so that's why she "got injured"
@@milquetoasted Yeah the actor who played the lead Jem'Hadar said it was something like 120 degrees that day.
I love Rematiklan's reaction when Sisko tells him he's been betrayed at 1:20 .
He turns around and he doesn't look shocked, more like disappointment & understanding. The actor did a fantastic job expressing that through his heavy make-up.
Well, he's Jackie Chiles.
@@andysahs1599 Like, who cares? Jackie Chiles is a more well-known role of his, as is Mission Impossible.
It's Phil Morris, a guy with more acting credits that could can shake a stick at. Who, incidentally, got his first screen role on the Original Series.
@@Elthenarand several other roles across the Star Trek spectrum. All minor, but all outstanding ✊😑 great actor.
I like how even in a situation that the Starfleet officers literally couldn't lose, one of the redshirts (okay, yellowshirts) still died.
lol. truth. xD
I find that this gives the scene much more meaning. A life lost just because the Jem'Hardar were programmed this way. She would still be alive if the Jem'Hardar would have surrendered
Lucky shots still happen. This is the loss in the no lose situation. You're not taught that one by Starfleet. You're taught the no win situation. Only one person has ever won the no win situation.
What makes it even funnier is how he’s the one who says they won’t have a chance yet he still dies anyway 🤣
@@Hagiman2000 likewise she would still be alive if Sisko had just done the ambush
Remata’Klan is easily one of the best one-off characters in Star Trek.
Too bad he didn't speak like Jackie Chiles.
The Jem'Hadar were consistently the best written antagonists in Trek history.
These vorta plans were audacious, ludicrous and incredulous!
@@tenkenroo "Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!"
"I am shocked and chagrined."
@@YD-uq5fi This comment is lewd, lascivious, salacious, _outrageous_ .
You've got to hand it to the writers of DS9 for humanizing a race of lab-grown monsters bred for battle.
Can't help but pity the Jem'Hadar. They are way smarter and aware of things than people give them credit for, yet they still remain loyal out of an intense sense of honor. I think the group leader here was honestly in agreement with Sisko, and wanted to take the deal.
Remata'Klan wanted a way out of his joyless existence. Like more than a few other Jem'Hadar, some come to really hate what they are and the disgusting Vorta they have to follow. He finds his way out here with this suicide of his whole unit.
Loyalty is genetically hardwired into them which is even worse
The more I think about it, the more disloyal Rematiklan was.
The Founders _wanted_ Keevan to die here. That is why they gave them suicide implants in the first place. As leader, it was Remats job to kill him-
Instead he comited suicide, allowing Keevan to escape to be taken alive.
@@christopherg2347 if he were the Jem'Hadar first, I would agree with you. He is not. He was Third. It is not his job to kill the Vorta for betraying the Founders. And he knows that.
@@davidlewis5312Omet'iklan would disagree with you.
'It's not my life to give up, Captain. And it never was.'
Yeah, the line had gravitas for a guy completely loyal to the state.
That look he gives Sisko after that line was like him dropping the mic.
He's admitting to the weariness of his joyless existence. Explaining his suicidal actions before he deliberately gets himself and his unit killed.
A man chooses, a slave obeys
I felt bad for Rematiklan.
He was a good man. He deserved better than what the Dominion had to give him
They humanized a couple of the jem hadar. The one who broke his addiction, Worf's fighting adversary, this guy
Unfortunately, to the Dominion they were nothing more than tools. To be grown, used and discarded for the greater good of the Dominion.
@@kutter_ttl6786 *THE GREATER GOOD!*
No.
No didn't
just because a thing doesn't hold the same values as you, doesn't make your point of view on its reality more "right" (oh God, I sound like one of those purple haired land whales that Critical Drinker goes on about)
You cannot read the thoughts of the soldier, but he feels justified in what hes doing.
And if you're going to give you're life as a soldier for a cause, that's the really about the best you can hope for.
I love that they give the Jem Hadar strong morals and beliefs that are different but understandable and able to be respected.
Jem'Hadar. The ultimate baddies yet we sympathised with them and their situation. That's good writing.
They are child soldiers
Remetiklan seems like he could have been a friend in another time and place.
Remata'Klan should have described Keevan's actions as :
"Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!"
"I am shocked and chagrined!"
"Mortified and Stupefied!"
"I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."
- Romulan Commander, Star Trek: The Original Series, "Balance of Terror"
Remata'Klan shows something you don't normally see in a Jem'Hadar this entire episode. Worry and weariness. Quite a few times in DS9, you come across Jem'Hadar who are more than what they were designed to be, and are coming into conflict with who they are. Ika'Tika who yields to Worf out of great respect for Worf's honor, and gets gunned down. Garranagar, who convinces his whole unit to try and break free of the Dominion and get off the white. Omet'iklan who kills his own Vorta while his entire unit watches because he can no longer follow the orders of one so despicable. Remata'Klan shows a great weariness for his joyless existence and having to take orders from Kee'Van. And in this scene he's found a way out, and deliberately gets himself and his entire unit killed to escape his dreary and torturous existence as a Jem'Hadar soldier. Your usual Jem'Hadar has the look of power with their million mile stare. Remata"Klan's is just used up and tired. Like he's wanted a way out for a long time.
4:25
man, you know Sisko wanted to say 'get this _thing_ against a rock and vaporize him!' but upheld his principles. Avery really conveyed the sheer disgust Sisko held for Keevan. Brilliant acting and direction.
I love the small moment at 4:07. After negotiations have failed and the fighting over with the dead still warm, Sisko sees the Vorta walking over to them, unarmed having willfully sold out his own men to save himself and is seriously contemplating shooting him out of pure disgust for how slimy and self serving the Vorta was.
He was certainly a lot closer to the Jem'Hadar than the Vorta. Soldiers with honor fighting because the Vorta and their masters demand it, not because they by themself would have to fight and kill each other.
War never changes.
It makes Keevan's death all the more satisfying, considering how embarrassing and disgraceful things ended for him: shot on accident by a bunch of bumbling Ferengi, turned into a literal meat puppet, then abandoned in a hallway on a derelict station to continually bump into the same wall until either the implants lost power, or his body simply stopped working mechanically.
When I saw that episode, I thought of this moment and thought "yeah Keevan, that's what you get; at least if you'd have died on that planet with your men, that would've had dignity. You died like you lived, like a bitch".
I also really enjoyed the moment immediately preceding it. The shooting has stopped, the Jem'Hadar have all fallen over. But O'Brien, the veteran, is still in cover, and still watching for danger. Everyone else has relaxed and assumed its all over just because the noise has stopped.
@@irishguy051 Decorated for conspicuous bravery 17 times. Miles is a man who's seen some sh!t. And you Irishguy's are pretty tough. 👍
@@LabTech41"i hate ferengi." *is shot and collapses dead.*
Probably one of the best DS9 episodes ever. Even the background music is intense.
I think deep down he wanted too go with Sisko, but he knew that not only would it be a hard sell to his own men, but will ultimately be pointless because he has got nothing else to live for but death, honor and his addiction to the white. He would rather have gone down fighting than live a second longer.
The fact that he even stopped the assault to talk to sisko again seems to suggest he was open to consider possibilities.
@@rowlandbuck2703 nah. He did it purely out of respect to Sisko but he never had any intent but to die in combat. Seems to me there were a few things he wanted to get off his chest before his death.
I think it's slightly more complicated than that. He was in disgrace in the eyes of his people and his (for lack of a better term) country. Death for his perceived errors was the only path to redemption in his mind. Had they won the day instead and returned home, it's highly likely that the scumbag Vorta would have painted them all as disobedient, or at the very least incompetent, for getting them in this situation. And we know the Dominion's consequences for failure. So from his perspective, dying honorably by following orders was really the only way open to him. I think that's what he was trying to tell Sisko in the end.
3:49 I know this is mostly meant to illustrate that the meaningless loss of life affected both sides, but in another way I feel like it illustrates just how frighteningly effective the jem'hadar are as soldiers.
Think about it. The jem'hadar were out in the open with no cover, facing an opponent on high ground in full cover with a near ideal killzone on the lower ground, and the jem'hadar STILL managed to kill one enemy combatant before they were all cut down. Add on top of that that this particular group of jem'hadar was also effectively starving and not fighting at full strength and it really puts into perspective why these guys are some of the most feared soldiers in both the Gamma and Alpha quadrants
" CHIEF....GET THIS...." ....we all can guess accurately the gist of what he was going to say next
... nice, well mannered fellow ... ...
"Chief, get this..."
"Sir, this is a primetime show"
I love that they give the Jem Hadar strong morals and beliefs that are different but understandable and able to be respected. They are clones but yet each one has it's own personality. Perfect contrast to the Vorta who have strong beliefs but ooze slime and are not respected by anyone, only obeyed.
More than likely vorta are proxy between the Jem’ Hadar so that when a unit has “lost discipline”, run out of white or whatever, a vorta dies instead of a founder.
The Vorta are the Managerial Elite, who run things on behalf of the owners/founders. Everyone in Academia, Journalism, and Human Resources is a Vorta in real-life.
One of the most effective anti-war scenes in this show. The good guys have defeated the bad guys, but there was no honour in it, there's no sense of glory, no one is celebrating. The main cast was essentially reduced to an execution squad here. In terms of Sisko having to violate his most fundamental personal principles to protect the society and values he holds dear, this episode is in my opinion just as poignant and powerful as In The Pale Moonlight.
3:33......Garak is the only one who seems to wear an expression on his face that betrays absolutely no regret at what he just had to do. Those eyes - he killed them and didn't have ANY reservations. All the Starfleet officers bear masks of 'oh this is awful. Ohh I feel so guilty for what I have done' type faces.
Garak's look says to me he sees the whole affair as maybe a bit unfortunate, but not tragic. He certainly wouldn't be losing any sleep over it.
My favorite line Garak said in this episode was..."Wrong Doctor, HUMANS have rules for war, rules that tend to make wining that much harder"....spoken like a true assasin.
Garak is almost terrifying when shooting the Jem'hadar
Which makes sense for a man who once considered shooting Gul Dukat in the back in a battle where they were fighting side by side and only decided against it because there were too many Klingons left to fight
@@hfar_in_the_sky Indeed.....still, he could have killed Dukat right AFTER the Klingons had been defeated in theory.
The best episode of DS9 maybe all of trek.
good, but not the best as there were several better ones in my opinion
what I find interesting is the Vorta's perspective is never really fully understood. He can't save his men. He doesn't have the resources necessary. They are going to go crazy and die horribly. I think he believed he was doing the right thing FOR THEM. An honorable death in the service of the Founders at the hands a real enemy of the Dominion. Maybe they even take one or two with them.
The Jem'Hedar (sp?) buried with respect by fellow soldiers who will remember and mourn them. Their Vorta, killed by a negligent discharge by a Ferangi and then pupated by medical devices, left to bump into a wall until his body gave out and rotted on an abandoned space station.
"I hate Ferangi." *is shot and collapses dead.*
Hadar.
Again, not hard to spell, if you don't know how to spell it look it up.
You're on the internet...
@@ValiantWrestling Thank you for letting me know friend. Have a great day.
Can't wait to see this Vorta again in the Firengi episode!
I take some satisfaction in what happens to him, though l personally think he deserved to be handed back to the Dominion as they would have made him suffer far more
It's poetic that his death is even more senseless than the Jem'Hadars'.
@@CaffeinePandaYup, as humiliating and senseless as he deserved. To be a meat puppet to a bunch of bumbling Ferengi. Soothes the soul almost.
It was a truly awful episode, nothing remotely funny about it with a bunch of annoying characters and an awful wooden guest star who really should've been Weyoun wirh Jeff Combs in duel roles as both Brunt and Weyoun and it shoyld've been more serious than it was considering we never saw or heard from Yelgrin again after it.
A pointless filler episode.
@@ValiantWrestling Filler episodes were one of the beautiful things about DS9 and this era of TV, getting to spend so much time with characters including their silly holodeck hijinks or whatever, getting fun downtime episodes to take a breath, that it mattered that much more when they were in dire situations. There were lows, sure, but there were soaring heights too. The era of mini-series shows is great and all, but it flattens a show when you have to make every episode in service of one large plot and only have 10 episodes to do it.
Fuck me, the way Andrew Robinson looks, that could kill me if he stared at me like the way he did in this scene in real life.
....and then the Vortau is later killed by Ferngi
The fact that someone still dies on the Starfleet side when they've been given every advantage and the enemy is resigned to death is some of the most compelling proof of what excellent soldiers the Jem'Hadar were made to be; Even with all the odds against them, they still claim a life.
I like the one superfluous shot at the end
The Jem'Hadar were well written and had fantastic makeup, and expensive, so bring on the cheaper Breen.
"Our death is glory to the Founders... and Keevan's eventual ignominious death at the hands of the Ferengi will be karma!"
Garak had no right to look so damn fine in this scene
Remataklan steals the scene of course, but sisko has so many good moments here as well. Avery brooks was at the height of his game here. The look around at the sun and sea when he asks if remataklan wants to give up his life, the way he delivers that defeated line "all the wrong things..." And the moment he considers shooting keevan upon seeing them. Hmm, there is a reason this is considered one of the best episodes in all of trek.
"Did you receive your white in your normal fashion?"
"They made the vial. You didn't make the vial, did you? Then, some of the vials broke."
"They didn't give you enough vials? That is outrageous, egregious, preposterous!! It is in violation of the Jem'Hadar's rights as consumers."
Deep Space 9 has scenes better than anything in TNG, and this is one of them.
Also, I know Worf said otherwise, but the Jem'Hadar are more honorable than the Klingons.
The conversation between Sisko and Rematiklan is amazing Avery Brooks and Phil Morris aka Jackie Chiles did a very good job in this scene .
At 1:22 :
Remata'Klan should have described Keevan's actions as :
"Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!"
"I am shocked and chagrined!"
"Mortified and Stupefied!"
"Flouting the Dominion's Conventions!"
If you think the vorta walks funny in this scene, just wait.
That red headed security chick is smoking hot.
So is Garak
This jemhadar was stupendous, gregarious and OUTRAGEOUS!
I feel like a Starfleet officer's favourite tactic is to use reason and diplomacy to avoid conflict and quite often we see it working but it fails spectacularly here. The Jem'Hadar and the Dominion dont tend to listen to the whole moralising speech routine.
I would like to see Remata'Klan speak like Jackie Chiles.
3:15 "Magnificent valor..."
The way Kevan treated his men is disgusting.
It's OUTRAGEOUS, EGREGIOUS, PREPOSTEROUS! I am SHOCKED AND CHAGRINED! MORTIFIED AND STUPIFIED!
Masterpiece episode
It's a great tragedy, and acted well. But Sisko appealed to him wrong. He's trying to get him to betray the Founders, which he won't do. If he'd argued that dying pointlessly will not serve the Dominion he might have had a chance.
That was not Sisko's job to do.
The Jem'Hadar wanted to die.
@@CD-yr8tw He’s a Starfleet Officer. Yes it was. He wasn’t perfect, he failed, but that’s okay.
What a disgusting Vorta. I think Weyun would have done better. Yuck.
Well yeah Weyoun would have done better but that's kind of the point of Keevan here. He's a sneaky, dishonest little shit that clearly doesn't give a fuck about the Jem'Hadar or the Dominion, he was probably a defective clone.
The last time Weyoun led a Jem'Hadar unit, he was killed by them so he probably wouldn't have done well here
@@ifound15min35 but lasted longer right?
@@ifound15min35 yeah but he was still serving the dominion, not himself like Keyvon here. Weyoun error was a mistake anyone could have made in that situation. He made the wrong choice in a tough situation, not a selfish choice.
True warriors respect each other. They do what they are supposed to do.
In the context of their culture, the Vorta gave them an honorable death.
Humans only see it as him saving his own skin.
The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
Neither view is wrong.
Not really. Dying isn't inherently honorable. The vorta disposed of them like vermin. Sisko would kill those guys without a second thought in a fair fight, but he was understandably hesitant to slaughter them needlessly.
They weren't dying for a cause here, they were dying so a coward could live. As enemy soldiers Sisko respects, he has a problem with their lives being thrown away so trivially, and rightly so.
Kevan wasn't consciously trying to do them any favors. He wanted them killed off so he could survive. The fact that it meant they wouldn't suffer and die of drug withdrawal wasn't part of the equation.
@@dhinton1 that's liberal BS sometimes wrong is wrong
True Patriots🇺🇸
Ooops, shot the vorta, itchy trigger finger!
Remata’Klan was truly the most respectfull and reasonable Jemhaddar I have ever seen
One of the saddest scenes in trek honestly.
Weyoun would have never done this. I’m not sure what he would have done, but he was too loyal to do this.
Indeed Keevan is pretty vile even by Vorta standards
every Vorta had done the same
Weyoun was killed in his first appearance because he didn't bother hiding his contempt for and distrust of the Jem'Hadar.
Weyoun would likely had advocated for putting the jemhadar in stasis. The man was a pragmatist but loyal to the founders
@@tenkenrooNot really as a later clone proved he was willing to murder odo to stop a previous Weyoun clone from defecting to the federation and then lied to the female changling about it.
today i learned that Remata'klan is Jackie Chiles.
In another life Sisko could have called him friend.
Leader of a Jem'Hadar warrior unit to Kramer's lawyer. Phil Morris can do it all.
he can even do impossible missions
Sisko. Line was. "All the Wrong things". 2:44
Like the J.H. always talk Military
Linggo
The order of things is more desirable commanda
Check out the Jem’Hadar having invaded Southern California.
Capt. Sisko says we have phasers locked on every one of you, but there are 10 Jem'hadar below, and his team consists of seven people. Garak was likely a big part of their success in hitting every target.
Shouldn't phasers set on maximum vaporize the rocks?
It still takes time to aim
Speaking as a Star Trek apologist: they probably didn't have them set to wide beam max setting in order not to be slammed with the debris from the short-range explosions. Phasers can only vaporize soft targets completely - at least in the DS9 era.
Isn't that the Vorta who was killed by the Ferengi when the Vorta had Quark's mother?
Yes.
I randomly say, “It is the order of things” hoping someone gets the reference.
I'm doomed to be considered a nerd…
It is the order of things.
If I had soldiers like this under my command, I could take over the Goddamn planet
That piece of s*** vorta doesn't even understand that humans are about to honorably bury their own enemies.
This might sound totally weird but Star Trek has made me a better person because of episodes like this. Things that make you think. Moral and ethical dilemmas.
While a fictional story, this is still a good representation of how good and honorable "men" are too often sacrificed on the orders of corrupt lesser "men" based on a sense of duty.
Never noticed before the look of pain and regret on O'Brians face when he realizes they have to fight.
Not a really fight, it was more of an execution
Was this before or after the episode where he destroyed the potential cure for the Jem Hadar addiction?
@@Sephlock after. Well spotted!
It's O'Brien with an e, not an a.
You're on the internet, ignorance of spelling is not an excuse.
@@ValiantWrestling pedantry makes you look so cool dude
That feeling when they dont Shroud and outflank the Federation. Maybe shroud doesnt work when they are White starved
I believe earlier in the episode one of the Jem'Hadar reports he is no longer able to shroud. I can't remember if it was stated or implied that when in withdrawal from the White they cannot concentrate well enough to shroud.
It also wouldn't matter if they were being ordered into a killzone where they could be easily heard.
I don't know why Nog was treated as so green in AR558, he had been through many battles in space and on the ground as a core part of the crew of the Enterprises greatest battleship, alongside Siskko who basically fought half of the war himself. He should have been more battlehardened then any of the other soldiers on the ground, PTSD should have been nothing new to him.
just because you are loyal to your commanders doesn't mean your commanders are loyal to you. such is the fate of all soldiers. :(
Who put the balm on? I didn't tell you to put the balm on.
I only looked up this clip and came to comment to say that man do I miss the incredible writing of this show. This stuff is Shakespeare compared to the drivel that passes for Trek these days.
Strange New Worlds has been really solid.
I’m here after BGS IBMOR’s video on the plight of the black man in the Gynacracy
None of those words are in the Bible.
Man!
That Jemhadar was GANGSTER!😢
That Vorta was a jerk!😡
Kinda wish Worf challenged him one on one
Remata’Klan played by Phil Morris.
What'd he say?
All the wrong things😮💨
despite what they look like they are child soldiers
The actor who plays Rometaklan also played Jackie Chiles in Seinfeld 🤯🤯🤯
Remata'Klan should have described Keevan's actions as :
"Outrageous! Egregious! Preposterous!"
"I am shocked and chagrined."
He also played a little kid in Star Trek "Miri" episode in the original series, Phil Morris.
omg i watched the clips and lost it laughing lol Hard to fathom that actor playing a Jemmie and had a funny bone like he did in Swinfeld!
Yes, and around the same time too.
3:20 - 3:21 For Cardassia! -- 3:34 - 3:35 Enemies of the state deserve no mercy.
Sisko "Have a seat. On earth 100s of years ago dark skinned people such as myself "negros", were slaves. We were bought, sold, beaten, worked to death and murdered with impunity by "white" people. That was the order of things...then. Now I am a commander in Starfleet...the order of things can change."
Benjamin Sisco, the most bad ass captain in Startrek history!!
"It is not my life to give up."
Someone tell me what he meant by that.
He doesn't own his life.
Phil Morris aka Remata'Klan says, "I likened him to a samurai warrior who is loyal only to his feudal lord, and that's how I played him. His willingness to die, despite Sisko's offer of an alternative is his most honorable moment."
At least Kevan got what was coming to him later.
A dishonorable man who died the most dishonorable death.
A wasted death in a throwaway joke of an episode.
@@ValiantWrestling It's a great episode.
Kevon is his name.
It's spelled Keevan in the script. Not that that really means anything; the Dominion doesn't use our alphabet.
IMO Sisko is responsible for the death of his man. He gave away the element of surprise. It might have led to memorable dialoge but it was wrongheaded to make the offer.
I think out of not just a sense of honor but also bleak hope, he hoped to avoid a showdown altogether because he wanted to save all the Jem'Hadar over Keevan. It would still net him his com unit, potential turncoat soldiers, and take Keevan prisoner anyway.
This was powerful!! Made me think of Sparta!
27 settings and none of the stun settings work on J'em Had'r?
Jem'Hadar have extremely resilient bodies, such that phaser beams on "stun" intensity had no effect on them. Fighting Jem'Hadar is kill or be killed. During the Dominion War, Federation fighters quickly learned that only lethal settings could be used to stop them. In case you didn't know it was war you're supposed be killing your enemies. That is how you win a war.
Were these Alpha or Delta Jem Hadar?
Deltas
@@j.smith1631 No, I think Tony was referring to a subplot in a couple of other episodes (mostly in that episode where the Dominion captures the Defiant and Dax/O'Brien/Bashir save the day from a miniaturized runabout). There was talk of the Founders having introduced a modified series of Jem Hadar, supposedly better-suited to what they had discovered about war in the Alpha Quadrant. (and subtly placing the blame on the older-series JH while omitting the fact that THEY had created them).
---
Anyway... the new-model JH that the Vorta leaves in command of Defiant while the Vorta goes on with some other assignment turns out to be major idiot/jerk. Talked a lot of smack about about the "old-timers" reaching the limits of their useful service life, and ridiculing the former commander's recommendations & how he carried out orders. Even "Mr Adventure" from Star Trek III would recognize the need to show more respect for your elders.
Anyway, karma being what it was, new-model guy died an ignominious death when the crew retakes the Defiant (which probably wouldn't have happened if he had listened to his predecessor's advice).
we have a lock on every single one of u. But we will keep misfiring and threaten our own lives to make u feel better
That little parlay could have cost the life of one of Sisko's men. Jem'Hadar are still good soldiers even deprived of the white. There was no need to parlay. Should have lit them up when they got into range.
Remata'klan's attitude was very common of Japanese Imperial military. The very word "kamikaze" has it's place in English because of this. The ACTUAL definition of kamikaze (Kami = God, Divinity, Celestial, Holy, etc, Kazu = Wind, breeze, air, sky, etc) has nothing to do with suicide but in our language, we use it to indicate a suicide attack on an enemy.
Pre-WW II and until the end, Japanese revered their Emperor as a literal living god, in much the way say Jem'Hadar and Vorta do the founders. As such, their lives were inferior, replaceable and ultimately irrelevant to the will of their gods. Japanese military had a similar concept when it came to the divnity of their emperor. One of the reasons for seppuku was to fail your god was shameful and your life forfeit, so you sacrifice yourself for it. In media, we romanticize this as part of some noble, selfless act when it truth, it is fanatical. There are elements of bushido that are noble and good, but kamikaze and seppuku (I still call it hara-kiri, as seppuku is the WRITTEN form, not the verbal form) are not them.
As such, Remata'klan saw his life as irrelevant to the will of the founders, which was that the Jem'Hadar obey the Vorta, which by extension is obendiance to the Founders. People crap on Christianity because we teach that suicide is a sin and all life is important and often reference the WORST historical parts of Christian history while completely IGNORING the good parts of it. Likewise with American history, especially by Americans ourselves. We crap on our history and always seek to find a way to feed our feelings of moral superiority by acting like our own country is beneath us. And yet, kamikaze and seppeku are not among our social norms. Nor is social status accepted in our culture, but it is actually criticized.
Today, we Americans revere this attitude of kamikaze and hara-kiri. We honor and revere the Samurai that held social status of superiority over others and saw the life of Japanese second-right to their holy god emperor, including their own lives. We teach in history about the NOBLE and WONDERFUL old Japan that allied with the Nazi's, invaded and occupied Korea and tried to committ genocide on Koreans as if they were such a beautiful country and government, WRONGED by nuclear attacks. And we, the HORRIBLE and AWFUL, BIGOTED racist Americans that bombed two cities instead of doing the RIGHT thing and drawing the war out for more years as every Japanese man, woman and child eagerly seeks to sacrifice their life by fighting to the last one in "honorable" combat. And we talk about the WONDERFUL, MORALLY CORRECT Japan that did NO WRONG with Pearl Harbor, NO WRONG to the Korea people and NO WRONG to ally with the Nazi's. Historians try to claim kamikaze were "devastating" with 80% success in sinking US navy ships, while actual reports state very few ships were sank and the Japanese Imperial Air Force and Navy suffered far more losses. Japanese propaganda at the time claimed kamikaze was very successful, until Japanese military reports proved made public later proved they did very little in sinking ships. A country that devalued human life and we revere it.
I see this and I pity people like Remata'klan. I do not see anything noble and good, I see misguidance, misdirection and painfully obvious self-deprecation. To die for your country, your people, your family, WHEN NECESSARY is honorable. To die because you do not value yourself is repulsive to me. I'm glad Japan no longer insists on this and holds more value to life. They no longer invade other Asian countries and try to committ genocide. We, the Americans, DESPERATE to criminalize a politician we dislike, will always try to claim we "still invade and destroy" other countries. And yet, those countries still stand, with their same religions, borders and same culture, albeit more modernized and less involved in attacks like 9/11 or using mustard gas to genocide different religions like Saddam. But in truth, World War II removed the concept of a "god" emperor from Japan and the end of the Samurai put an end to the devaluing of human life. No more seppuku or kamikazi, except in the Yakuza. Korea, albeit split apart into a North and South, now have their own government, their own language remains and their own culture (Although I clearly disagree with the North). Germany no longer has gas chambers for Jews, Catholics, gypsies or gays. Two nukes, two cities destroyed. The rest of Japan spared the war, Korea regained independence, the end of a false god, the end of a social hierarchy that devalued human life and Nazi Germany lost it's most powerful ally which helped end the war sooner and made the end of the Nazi concentration camps much sooner.
I don't know about you, but I'd call that...a 'bargain'.
When has mainstream history outside of Japan ever tried to paint Imperial Japan as the good guys? You can think Imperial Japan's government was evil and that the system needed to be overthrown while also thinking it was wrong to deliberately target population centres with no military value and kill tens of thousands of Japanese civilians.
Also, the idea of Imperial Japanese soldiers as hyper-disciplined and unthinkingly loyal is not entirely true. Very few people volunteered to be kamikaze pilots. Many had to be almost literally dragged into the cockpit kicking and screaming and some had to fly drunk to do it.
@@Talisguy LITERALLY had to argue with an 8th grade history teacher at a school in Racine, WI at the time. She was 1/4 Japanese, born and raised in Madison WI, identified as Asian-American and declared what the US did destructive and horrid to the Japanese traditional way of life. Was teaching my ex girlfriends little girl that crap.
@@azraelknightquest5754 Dropping two nukes on a country, then occupying it and reshaping it in your image, will have an effect on its culture. So will showing up in a gunboat and forcing that country to trade with you at the point of a cannon. She's not wrong about the US having a significant impact on Japan's cultural development through their actions, and she's allowed to think much of it was negative.
Especially since Imperial Japan developed the way it did in response to being forcibly pulled out of its isolation at a time of European colonial dominance of the world: Japan's leaders concluded that the only way to avoid being colonised was to rapidly militarise and industrialise, and become powerful enough to hold its own very quickly. And Japan is not a resource-rich country, so its plans would depend on its ability to conquer territory for resources. Saying that Imperial Japan is all America's fault is a massive oversimplification - a European power would very likely have messed with them if the US hadn't got there first, for one thing - but saying that the US's interactions with Japan have had drastic, and not always positive, effects on its culture isn't wrong. Pointing this out doesn't imply that you don't think Imperial Japan was a racist, imperialist aggressor that seemed to be competing with Nazi Germany to speedrun as many horrifying war crimes as possible.
I agree with you, but there's one glaring mistake: "Nazi Germany lost it's most powerful ally which helped end the war sooner and made the end of the Nazi concentration camps much sooner."
The nukes weren't dropped until August 1945, the last Nazi army surrendered in May 1945. The war in Europe was over months before the nuclear bombings. They DID bring about the end of the war, though, and prevented an invasion that was projected to have millions of casualties on both sides.
Engage.
This is also one of the few times you see how deadly yet nerfed light speed weapons are. It's an instant kill even without disintegration and zero way to duck; Ronald D. Moore even said that the battles would take place miles and miles apart but in reality, it could be half a hemisphere away.
Isn't deliberately killing your own men a war crime?
Keevan only had 1 vial of Ketracel-White left and without it The Jem'Hadar would have killed Keevan, all of the Starfleet crew and then killed themselves.
@@ff3player He should have surrendered with the group, and he would have been fine.
@@zincwing4475 Phil Morris who played Remata'Klan said "I likened him to a samurai warrior who is loyal only to his feudal lord, and that's how I played him. His willingness to die, despite Sisko's offer of an alternative is his most honorable moment."
Why not just STUN them?
Jem'Hadar have extremely resilient bodies, such that phaser beams on "stun" intensity had no effect on them. Fighting Jem'Hadar is kill or be killed. During the Dominion War, Federation fighters quickly learned that only lethal settings could be used to stop them. In case you didn't know it was war you're supposed be killing your enemies. That is how you win a war.
One thing makes no sense to me. Why didn't the Federation gang use the stun setting for their phasers? Once all the Jem'hadar were unconscious Bashir could have sedated them until rescue arrived, like Sisko said.
The Jem'Hadar's orders were to attack and die if necessary. Being stunned and captured would force them to commit suicide to avoid being prisoners of war.
As i recall stun doesnt work on Jem'Hadar
@@craigturner6661 It would probably work on these Jem'Hadar because they are starved of white but we'll never know for sure.
Well In this episode, the vorta much like a spiritual leader. And I understand why did not give the rank The First to Rematiklan. Other firsts are more induvidual, and more cunnig. See the first First ,,,who killed Weyoun.
The first "First" who killed the first Weyoon? Yeah, Weyoon had it coming.
Shame. Star Trek used to be a show for young adults. Starting with the Dominion War, the age of the target audience dropped by five years.
Did it though? DS9's dominion war arc was one of the best longform stories in all the franchise.
Feel free to dislike it all you want but your false claim is laughable at best.
@@Archedgar
I do not disagree with "best longfrom stories". I disagree with "in all the franchise". Star Trek had an anthology format. Episodes were unrelated so that writers could tell any story they liked. And if someone didn't like an episode, no problem: Next week's episode would be about something else entirely.
Then the Dominion War started, and every episode was about the Dominion War, week after week after week.
Was it good? That is a matter of taste. For people who like generic war series, it was very good.
Was it Star Trek? No.
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@@ricksimon9867 tl;dr
You can keep being wrong all you like. It makes no difference to me but if you want to see actual 'not star trek' there are plenty of examples; STD, pakerd, pyke, voyager, etc.
Once again, your false claims are simply laughable but I will give you credit for at least trying to properly formulate a premise. It is far more than I expected.
@@Archedgar
Choose a lane. It is either "TL;DR" or "your claims are false". It cannot be both. And I know that other Star Trek shows are terrible. They have been all about pewpewpew! pewpewpew! ever since the Dominion War opened those flood gates.
I don't even know if "real Star Trek" (those first 13 seasons) was great because they didn't want fight scenes ... or because they simply could not afford fight scenes ...
When CGI became cheap, Star Trek died.
pewpewpew! pewpewpew!
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@@ricksimon9867 DS9 is the pinnacle of Star Trek. Trek is not about being on a ship going places. It'a about character and story. Examining issues. The Dominion war storyline did this incredibly well. The war itself was just a backdrop for the characters and story.
Any Jem'Hadar that attacks Sisko should be named KuKlux'Klan.
*The Caucasus mountains so-called Caucasians understand a clinch FIST, not a open hand.*
Wow so funny
YoMama’Klan sounds way better
So funny I forgot to laugh