My Shimano RD-6400, 600 (Original Ultegra) 7 speed from 1989 is still going strong after doing this type of service regularly. In fact all the parts from that groupset are still ok. Only the brake blocks have been replaced. With the right care parts really can last.
This is something that we get asked a lot. Plus, it's a great way to save some cash... Want to see more videos on refurbishing bike parts? Let us know 👇
Would be awesome if you could do the same for a front (shimano) derailleur.. I can't adjust the outer limit on mine, so the chain slips off every once in a while.
Yes!! I'd love to see GCN get ahold of an old bike and fully restore it! it would be awesome, you could acquire it very cheap and then auction it to charity
A tip I was told, and now follow, is to take a picture of the part before you take it off / go to the next step. That way by stepping back through the images you have a the step by step instructions on how to reassemble showing the part's final orientation.
Enjoyed this video Simon. I've just recently done a lot of work on my own bike. Replaced the bottom bracket; replaced front derailleur cable and adjusted setup; replaced both tyres; re-routed rear derailleur cable and re-indexed correctly, after a LBS botched it and charged me top dollar!; cleaned and re-greased the head set and forks; replaced the chain. All these done with inspiration from your videos and a couple from *cough* other presenters. Learned a lot about my bike with doing things myself. Keep up the good work.
Video it all as you go. Camera on a small tripod or maybe a head cam/hat. Great stuff GCN. Watched your derailleur video and tuned my 105 gears last night at 9.30 pm. Saved todays ride. Thanks guys. Your the best.
Love the show! after watching this video refurbished a Ultegra derailer that I was going to throw in the bin now I’m easy going to get a few more years out of it cheers Si
Love how a young person calls something from 2002 old... I love these types of how-to: th-cam.com/video/CPLiW-0zLa4/w-d-xo.html because it's detailed and from go he says "you'll need this..." so I know whether to spend the time watching because it IS something I can do at home!!! More at-home, bare minimum on-a-tight-budget upgrades or esp refurbishing videos are so necessary nowadays! Thank you so much for all the joy, expertise and KUHnowledge you drop on us all!! I hope to see y'all grow old riding bikes, making adjustments as you go as you age and sharing it all right here for us!! Blessings!! Cheers from across the pond lads! So grateful for all the G_N channels!!!
I did this to my cross bike rear mech that wasn't springing back and after you had gone up a climb and shifted down your chain would be loose. This procedure freed it up and it now works good as new , thanks gcn
the last time I tried to reassemble this I turned it into an Aston Martin and I am no longer riding ! but seriously, I would let the pros at my local bike shop handle this process . great video , enjoyed it !
it pisses me off immensely that the adjustable wrench behind si is placed the wrong way round for the outline drawn on the tool board.... come on lads- keep it together...
toasty bear I spotted it immediately and have had to stop the vid and go through the comments to see if anyone has commented about it. I'm glad I'm not the only one. Come on GCN..Get your shit together lads. Your meant to at least look professional.
just what I needed thanks Si ! I had used a strong degreaser to clean my chain and cassette but was way, way way to liberal with it. I think it stripped the grease out of the jockey wheel pivot so it seized up.
Just picked up an old Cannondale R600 for $25.00 someone left outside in the elements.. So far haven't had to mess with to much other than the Campagnolo Ergopower gizmo for the front derailleur.. Wound up being the cable needed cleaning.
One thing that didn't come across in this video was removing the bolts. Where Si had rust on the outer of the bottom pivot sleeve my Ultegra 6700 was rusty on the inside of the sleeve and the grooved bolt preventing the cage from swinging back fully. I had to sand off the rust inside the sleeve with a piece of emery paper and a cotton bud. It may also take Si about an hour but for anyone attempting this for the first time don't be surprised if it takes half a day including getting the mech off and back on again including building the cage and jockey wheels back up on the frame if you don't want to split your chain for any reason e.g. No new pin or quick link
For SRAM mechs the possibility of servicing the main pivot depends - some of them can be disassembled, some can not. For example SRAM X5 mountain derailleur from 2010 can be disassembled with no problem.
today I was servicing my old Sora with a friend and we used a spare rear derailleur hanger to hold the tension plate in place when locking the spring. It was too hard to do it by hand, I think my thumbs are still red from trying to hold the plate against the spring x)
That was a very informative video. Can I make a helpful suggestion, get yourself a small detachable vice so you can hold things you are working on. Peter
In case of Shimano parts you can almost always get a very good (I would even go as far as to call them superb) service manual so you don't really need to rely on something as fiddle as memory to keep track of "how did it went apart ?".
Why is Si not wearing safety glasses and gloves?!circlips and springs are a nightmare when they ping off. Cleaners and solvents will ruin your skin. 14 years in F1 has taught me the value of personal protective equipment (ppe). Love the vids
I second that! The gloves and glasses that is.. not the F1 part. You'll feel the pain before you hear the 'ping' of the spring launching at your eye balls.
Bateleur90 for cosworth in U.K., was Minardi Jaguar Jordan Williams. Then Red Bull now Mercedes. Long hours, but great work. Still wear ppe to do simple jobs..
just a word of warning, when taking things apart with springs and circlips in them, best to wear safety glasses, we have a chap at work who had a circlip go into his eye and he now has a glass eye ! ouch
I'm pretty broke, so I've done this alot. Putting that C-clamp back on... I see you cut out the 30 min or swearing and hurting your fingers... Aside from that, nice video, glad to see I'm not the only one who can do it! Maybe don't wait 14 years though.... I do it every 2.... Haven't done my NOS 7700 yet though... next year I think.
Given the corrosion it would seem that the seal shown gave up the ghost a long time ago and surely should have been replaced. Hopefully for people doing maintenance these components are still available?
Great information and informative. However, all the parts really should be totally cleaned of all old grease and grim before you put them back together, just my opinion.
from my experience, to actually remember how to reassemble all the fiddly parts back just simply take a photo of your derailleur, so that you can at least have a picture to get your job done, just as easy as that :)
My Fuji 2.3 rear sora derailleur doesn't like to shift up in gears, but it shifts just fine gearing down (smaller sprokets). So my indexing and cable tension seem good as when I'm forcing the derailleur to move with cable it's good...but it seems the tension of spring or pivot points need to be lubed. Does that make sense for troubleshooting? I was thinking the spring isn't powerful enough anymore...but after seeing this wasn't sure. Thoughts?
Any idea for what to do if the spring is worn out and doesn't have enough tension to get down into the smallest cogs? Is it even possible to salvage a derailleur with that problem?
thank you,very good video, but....what about the "earlier" step, i mean when it seems impossible to take/loosen the derailleur from the frame? I cannot at least, so : HOW to unscrew the allen screw nr 5 ? ;-) without damaging/forcing any part, I tried some different methods ;-( thank you
How about the other spring? The one that controls lateral movement through the gears? Is that replaceable? Because I think mine is soft and the mech won't quite make it to the lowest gear on the cassette. Even with the limiter screw completely open. ???
So glad you did this video great timing as I have just started to suffer a sticky bottom pivot and resulting chain slip. It's like having my own personal channel tailored to my every need. 😀
Hi GCN! This isn't related at all to the video but I was hoping you could give tips on how to carry your phone while riding. I got the new Iphone 7 plus and now I'm having a hard time carrying it in my jersey pocket.
Tomas Mojares I mounted an otter box belt clip case to my front stem with wire ties. It works great and I can also monitor heart rate, speed etc. using Wahoo tickr x software to upload to strava upon ride completion.
Good stuff, but possibly too stiff. Those are very low load and need to spin freely, I use spray lithium. Might try some White Lightening dry lube some time.
LaughingSaint66 You can buy Mass Airflow Sensor cleaner in an autoparts store, that will get the job done safely. Also contact cleaner. Both are sprays.
Allways using degreaser is not a good idea in my opinion. I would use some multioil like wd40 instead. That stuff comes deeper into the moving parts, it is better in removing rust and it is noch washing away all the grease there is. Instead is lubricates it a bit. On a rear derailleur thats maybe not that important, but when in comes to high stress parts like the chain, i would really advice it for long lifespan of the components. After the cleaning, put some proper lubricant on of course.
I really wanted to see this rear derailleur installed in a bike up and running... a technical question: Si, what is the main difference between this muc off translucent grease and a standard opaque white one? Thanks! #torqueback
I've violated the most important guidance: remembering the orientation of the cage and spring. I have a Campy Nuovo Record (1970s) apart and am struggling to put the cage, now a Rally cage for lower gearing, back on. Any guidance very appreciated.
This takes a lot of practice, swinging the b tension over with your hands is near impossible, RJ the bike guy illustrates how to do it by removing the b tension screw and using a plyers to swing it over while properly seating the seal at the same time. I thought these guys were pros, I guess if they look authentic they must be, but not so...
@@LTPottenger i gave up on it, everything was broken. shifters, brake levers and brakes, wheels tires tubes pedals etc. only the frame was fine. Turned my MTB into a hybrid instead, it's lighter and feels pretty great.
@@zokizoki2524 it was impossible to make it work nowadays, would be more expensive to fix the 80's bike than to buy a new one :( I like Decathlon's RC 520 with the shimano 105 groupset, it's not super expensive and it's a nice bike.
why always dura ace?I've had sora on my old trek winter bike for years and it works faultlessly,just maintain your bike regularly.Most of us mortals need nothing better than 105.
My Shimano RD-6400, 600 (Original Ultegra) 7 speed from 1989 is still going strong after doing this type of service regularly. In fact all the parts from that groupset are still ok. Only the brake blocks have been replaced. With the right care parts really can last.
This is something that we get asked a lot. Plus, it's a great way to save some cash...
Want to see more videos on refurbishing bike parts? Let us know 👇
Global Cycling Network absolutely! and not just parts, I want to see a project bike!
Would be awesome if you could do the same for a front (shimano) derailleur..
I can't adjust the outer limit on mine, so the chain slips off every once in a while.
Global Cycling Network maybe get a retro frame, and equip it with modern Dura ace componentry, than compare it to a modern day equivalent.
Yes!! I'd love to see GCN get ahold of an old bike and fully restore it! it would be awesome, you could acquire it very cheap and then auction it to charity
Brake calipers. One of my bike's rear caliper is gunked up and no amount of spray / soaking seems to get it back to its springy self.
A tip I was told, and now follow, is to take a picture of the part before you take it off / go to the next step. That way by stepping back through the images you have a the step by step instructions on how to reassemble showing the part's final orientation.
Enjoyed this video Simon. I've just recently done a lot of work on my own bike. Replaced the bottom bracket; replaced front derailleur cable and adjusted setup; replaced both tyres; re-routed rear derailleur cable and re-indexed correctly, after a LBS botched it and charged me top dollar!; cleaned and re-greased the head set and forks; replaced the chain. All these done with inspiration from your videos and a couple from *cough* other presenters. Learned a lot about my bike with doing things myself. Keep up the good work.
Video it all as you go. Camera on a small tripod or maybe a head cam/hat. Great stuff GCN. Watched your derailleur video and tuned my 105 gears last night at 9.30 pm. Saved todays ride. Thanks guys. Your the best.
Thanks for this. I have just serviced a Campag rear mech and agree the top pivot is a pain to get back in place!
Love the show! after watching this video refurbished a Ultegra derailer that I was going to throw in the bin now I’m easy going to get a few more years out of it cheers Si
Love how a young person calls something from 2002 old... I love these types of how-to: th-cam.com/video/CPLiW-0zLa4/w-d-xo.html because it's detailed and from go he says "you'll need this..." so I know whether to spend the time watching because it IS something I can do at home!!! More at-home, bare minimum on-a-tight-budget upgrades or esp refurbishing videos are so necessary nowadays! Thank you so much for all the joy, expertise and KUHnowledge you drop on us all!! I hope to see y'all grow old riding bikes, making adjustments as you go as you age and sharing it all right here for us!! Blessings!! Cheers from across the pond lads! So grateful for all the G_N channels!!!
I did this to my cross bike rear mech that wasn't springing back and after you had gone up a climb and shifted down your chain would be loose. This procedure freed it up and it now works good as new , thanks gcn
Take a photo of it when you take it apart. And at any stage inbetween where you might forget. Basically take lots of photos and use those.
the last time I tried to reassemble this I turned it into an Aston Martin and I am no longer riding ! but seriously, I would let the pros at my local bike shop handle this process . great video , enjoyed it !
I just recovered my Dura-Ace 7800! Immediately upgraded to 1x10.
Thank you GCN
it pisses me off immensely that the adjustable wrench behind si is placed the wrong way round for the outline drawn on the tool board.... come on lads- keep it together...
Why did you say that? No i can't stop looking...
Ialso noticed that, and it pisses me off as well.
toasty bear I spotted it immediately and have had to stop the vid and go through the comments to see if anyone has commented about it. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Come on GCN..Get your shit together lads. Your meant to at least look professional.
Curb your OCD ;-)
David Torr I did the same exact thing. It's so infuriating!
not only is Si a great cyclist but also a jolly good bike mechanic!!
I love you guys for making this video! Have a 1992 dura ace derailleur that clearly needs a job like this. Looking forward to trying this!
I know its old vid but was very satisfying to watch and results great.
I have tiagra from 2000 and It still works beautifully
i love old dura ace
the moral of teh story is don't buy SRAM
***** I have sram red and it's great
thank you from Germany, boys you are really the best!!!
just what I needed thanks Si ! I had used a strong degreaser to clean my chain and cassette but was way, way way to liberal with it. I think it stripped the grease out of the jockey wheel pivot so it seized up.
This system of gearing have been around forever and is so delicate - it would be interesting if you can test some other more integrated systems
Si, you do a very fine repair video. I enjoyed this one, thanks!
Watch RJ The Bike Guy's derailleur disassembly video.
The small adjustable wrench "spanner" is on the wall backwards.
YOU are awesome guys!!!👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Sometimes the key lesson from a video is identifying those things that I will leave to my LBS.
Just picked up an old Cannondale R600 for $25.00 someone left outside in the elements..
So far haven't had to mess with to much other than the Campagnolo Ergopower gizmo for the front derailleur..
Wound up being the cable needed cleaning.
One thing that didn't come across in this video was removing the bolts. Where Si had rust on the outer of the bottom pivot sleeve my Ultegra 6700 was rusty on the inside of the sleeve and the grooved bolt preventing the cage from swinging back fully. I had to sand off the rust inside the sleeve with a piece of emery paper and a cotton bud. It may also take Si about an hour but for anyone attempting this for the first time don't be surprised if it takes half a day including getting the mech off and back on again including building the cage and jockey wheels back up on the frame if you don't want to split your chain for any reason e.g. No new pin or quick link
could you guys make a video on repairing road bike cage hanger when it's bent?
The Glorious Cycling Master Race
For SRAM mechs the possibility of servicing the main pivot depends - some of them can be disassembled, some can not. For example SRAM X5 mountain derailleur from 2010 can be disassembled with no problem.
Just bought an old second hand bike with 7700 shifters and brakes. Good to know there's probably a lot of good kilometers still to be ridden with it.
Any chance you could make a video about types of grease? Which one goes where and why
today I was servicing my old Sora with a friend and we used a spare rear derailleur hanger to hold the tension plate in place when locking the spring.
It was too hard to do it by hand, I think my thumbs are still red from trying to hold the plate against the spring x)
That was a very informative video. Can I make a helpful suggestion, get yourself a small detachable vice so you can hold things you are working on. Peter
In case of Shimano parts you can almost always get a very good (I would even go as far as to call them superb) service manual so you don't really need to rely on something as fiddle as memory to keep track of "how did it went apart ?".
great video! looking forward to more of these
Why is Si not wearing safety glasses and gloves?!circlips and springs are a nightmare when they ping off. Cleaners and solvents will ruin your skin. 14 years in F1 has taught me the value of personal protective equipment (ppe). Love the vids
F1? That is interesting! What team(s) have you worked for, and what was your job, if you don't mind me asking?
I second that! The gloves and glasses that is.. not the F1 part. You'll feel the pain before you hear the 'ping' of the spring launching at your eye balls.
Bateleur90 for cosworth in U.K., was Minardi Jaguar Jordan Williams. Then Red Bull now Mercedes. Long hours, but great work. Still wear ppe to do simple jobs..
just a word of warning, when taking things apart with springs and circlips in them, best to wear safety glasses, we have a chap at work who had a circlip go into his eye and he now has a glass eye ! ouch
Can someone please tell Simon to turn over the small adjustable spanner. My OCD is killing me.
You could also use some rust remover to take the rust off those parts.
Use lemon juice & scouring pad to remove rust, then re grease to avoid further oxidisation 👍
#gcnhack
I'm pretty broke, so I've done this alot. Putting that C-clamp back on... I see you cut out the 30 min or swearing and hurting your fingers... Aside from that, nice video, glad to see I'm not the only one who can do it! Maybe don't wait 14 years though.... I do it every 2.... Haven't done my NOS 7700 yet though... next year I think.
Given the corrosion it would seem that the seal shown gave up the ghost a long time ago and surely should have been replaced. Hopefully for people doing maintenance these components are still available?
Great information and informative. However, all the parts really should be totally cleaned of all old grease and grim before you put them back together, just my opinion.
5.50+ VERY LUCKY ! #spring Big hand to Si REAL HARD JOB THIS !!! 👍
good video, make same that focuses on pulley wheels,clicking sound
Always have safety glasses to hand!!!
The correct way of spelling 'mech' is 'deraiellièoiauéèérré'. It's a French word, you know.
Maxz OH MY GOD YOU IGNORANT BLOKE ITS SPELLED DESREILOUER
Y'all are both bonkers, it's a Durraillikoenigseggerfahferwafflenugen, which in Cycle-chat translates to "Made in China".
Maxz Thank God, where would we be without you
Maxz ... why too fast legends - no time to read and assimil their meanings -- ???
lol
from my experience, to actually remember how to reassemble all the fiddly parts back just simply take a photo of your derailleur, so that you can at least have a picture to get your job done, just as easy as that :)
14 years old, man my newish 105 derailleur gummed up in only 2 years.
My Fuji 2.3 rear sora derailleur doesn't like to shift up in gears, but it shifts just fine gearing down (smaller sprokets). So my indexing and cable tension seem good as when I'm forcing the derailleur to move with cable it's good...but it seems the tension of spring or pivot points need to be lubed. Does that make sense for troubleshooting? I was thinking the spring isn't powerful enough anymore...but after seeing this wasn't sure. Thoughts?
Is there a video on unsticking the brake quick release???? My rear ones are always sticking
afraid not, try a few drops of oil on it, make sure it doesn't go on the rim/tyre though
pro bike video of Si's of cyclocross bike !!!
Any idea for what to do if the spring is worn out and doesn't have enough tension to get down into the smallest cogs? Is it even possible to salvage a derailleur with that problem?
Tks! This video helped me a lot!
What is the Park tool on the right of the large adjustable spanner used for?
Pedal axles.
what about using an ultrasonic cleaner with some degrease and hot water?
great video,guys. thx for that
First lesson of bike mechanics, when working on springs always wear safety glasses...
Degreaser in the eyeballs is a bit of a wakeup call too.
Also keep your mouth closed.
I was thinking the same thing. Glad someone spotted it. only got one pair of eyes
thank you,very good video, but....what about the "earlier" step, i mean when it seems impossible to take/loosen the derailleur from the frame? I cannot at least, so : HOW to unscrew the allen screw nr 5 ? ;-) without damaging/forcing any part, I tried some different methods ;-( thank you
Safety glasses on in the workshop - ALWAYS.
Plus, they're not Jockey Wheels. There is a Guide Wheel and a Tension Pulley.
I use dura ace 7700 derailures and I prefer it over a 7800 and 7900
The longest spring in the RD that is meant to pull inward does not work...can anyone help to sort it out.
How about the other spring? The one that controls lateral movement through the gears? Is that replaceable? Because I think mine is soft and the mech won't quite make it to the lowest gear on the cassette. Even with the limiter screw completely open. ???
Performance wise is better to have a Dura-Ace from 2002-2004 or a Sora or a Tiagra form 2012-2013 ? #askgcn #tourqback
I ride a Dura-Ace 7700 from 2002 and I think a modern Tiagra would shift a little bit smoother, but the DA would be more reliable.
So glad you did this video great timing as I have just started to suffer a sticky bottom pivot and resulting chain slip. It's like having my own personal channel tailored to my every need. 😀
BBC presents - Simon Richardson: The Reassembler :))
I'd like to see what happens between 4:26 and 4:27? Seems like the jockey cage self assembled.
Good video congratulations there is no filling better than taking something apart and putting it back together (without any extra parts)
Hi GCN! This isn't related at all to the video but I was hoping you could give tips on how to carry your phone while riding. I got the new Iphone 7 plus and now I'm having a hard time carrying it in my jersey pocket.
Tomas Mojares I mounted an otter box belt clip case to my front stem with wire ties. It works great and I can also monitor heart rate, speed etc. using Wahoo tickr x software to upload to strava upon ride completion.
looks like the parts you put back where the b tensioner sits are still dirty... WHY?????????????????????????????????
I'm thinking of lifting the seals up on my jockey wheel bearings and injecting some Phill Woods grease in there.
Good stuff, but possibly too stiff. Those are very low load and need to spin freely, I use spray lithium. Might try some White Lightening dry lube some time.
What is good store bought cleaner for di2 mechs found in US hardware or auto parts store ?
LaughingSaint66 You can buy Mass Airflow Sensor cleaner in an autoparts store, that will get the job done safely. Also contact cleaner. Both are sprays.
Mahalo!!
A sandpaper ?! Come oooon ! lol
How about electronic drivetrains? eTap Di2 and EPS?
perwiratempur You have to take it apart and put the new protons and electrons in.
xD
Part numbers please?
Allways using degreaser is not a good idea in my opinion. I would use some multioil like wd40 instead. That stuff comes deeper into the moving parts, it is better in removing rust and it is noch washing away all the grease there is. Instead is lubricates it a bit. On a rear derailleur thats maybe not that important, but when in comes to high stress parts like the chain, i would really advice it for long lifespan of the components. After the cleaning, put some proper lubricant on of course.
The shimano RD 7700 is from 1994. My bike has all 7700 parts except the RD, which is the later 7800 model for a 10s😂
Not touching the parallelogram at all??
When doing this: take pictures! Better too many than too few.
make a video while dissembling, watch back during re-assembling (while keep filming) and upload everything on youtube as instruction video
At 1:02 , might be OCD but tha small wescott is flipped from the drawing on the wall ;)
Should i lube rear derailleur with engine oil ?
I've got a very nice eighties Peugeot bike (Peugeot Champagne men's bike) with a Simplex 6 speed rear derailleur. Any special advise on that?
I really wanted to see this rear derailleur installed in a bike up and running...
a technical question: Si, what is the main difference between this muc off translucent grease and a standard opaque white one? Thanks! #torqueback
I've violated the most important guidance: remembering the orientation of the cage and spring. I have a Campy Nuovo Record (1970s) apart and am struggling to put the cage, now a Rally cage for lower gearing, back on. Any guidance very appreciated.
Did you fix it?
Stuart Walker I took it to my LBS.
nice one
Use your camera and take lots of pictures when you take it apart. It makes it a lot easier to get back together.
rjthebikeguy has videos like this and though he films them solo 1 can actually see what he's doing
This takes a lot of practice, swinging the b tension over with your hands is near impossible, RJ the bike guy illustrates how to do it by removing the b tension screw and using a plyers to swing it over while properly seating the seal at the same time. I thought these guys were pros, I guess if they look authentic they must be, but not so...
I’ve got a 1987 shimano tourney rd ty10
2002 is old?? I'm trying to bring one back from early 80's... i'm screwed :C
The 80s ones are easier, less crap to go wrong. Scrub it in soap and water with a brush then degrease it and see how it's doing and go from there.
@@LTPottenger i gave up on it, everything was broken. shifters, brake levers and brakes, wheels tires tubes pedals etc. only the frame was fine. Turned my MTB into a hybrid instead, it's lighter and feels pretty great.
yeah anything made after 2010 is just rubbish
@@zokizoki2524 it was impossible to make it work nowadays, would be more expensive to fix the 80's bike than to buy a new one :( I like Decathlon's RC 520 with the shimano 105 groupset, it's not super expensive and it's a nice bike.
My OCD is kicking in.........Your small adjustable spanner is hung up backwards..................Whats the point in drawing the little outlines?
IK the feels.
Working out (spending time in a gym) once a decade is not helping there (3:27), right Si?
why don't you do a series where you build up a winter bike out of all the old bits you must all have laying about?
why always dura ace?I've had sora on my old trek winter bike for years and it works faultlessly,just maintain your bike regularly.Most of us mortals need nothing better than 105.
I opened my derailleur and now it lost its tension, I cant get the spring back in. Its a shimano nx. Does anyone have tips?
I’m 6’ tall, should I get XL?
What about the front mech?
Can you turn the rest of the tools around to match the one backwards please? Let's keep things consistent here! Muahaha