The excitement in Nick's face is like a four year old on Christmas Eve. He definitely loves his job and loves to share his knowledge. It was a joy to watch 👍
Nick is such a great guy, I had a ton of fun at the shop. All the guys at the shop treated me like one of the crew. True blue car guys and thats what its all about
I have to side with Uncle Bucko this vid. I know majority of fans understand wrenching. This man is fixing two nephews multiple drag cars. His bros and sis in laws vehicles. And completed his own S-10 engine swap. Oh oh then goes out to Grandpa's and helps with planting and tractor duties. UB u are a good man,son, uncle , bro ..... See y boys turned into such good young men. Who else watch vids and either share or send text to family member? All it takes. Wish all SRC family great fathers day weekend and b safe.
This is real! Where on the planet can anyone get content like this! Two guys coming together to make these tests between old school Carburator and modern EFI! Greatest show on the Earth. Period
It is amazing just how well a carburetor can work through all the rpm range considering what’s happening, idle circuits, primaries, secondaries, high speed enrichment and all using vacuum as a trigger. I think most of us appreciate EFI when we go out and start the car on a cold winter day, but after spending about 6 months trying to diagnose and fix my EFI engine with an intermittent idle problem, an old Carter AFB is looking pretty good about now.
I had a car with a small block that needed to be ultra reliable, because it was literally a work car. I originally had a Quadrajet on it, and had that tuned so perfectly that I just needed to tap the pedal to set the choke, and she would fire up a lot faster than injection. When I went to a Carter, same thing.
Something you might want to check is on some of the snipers (not sure about other makes) the injector harnesses can become loose and cause intermittent fueling problems. This happened to me on my 67 Cuda, pulled my hair out trying to figure out the problem.
@@dangeary2134 a very common problem is a bad ground cable on the engine, paint or rust on the connection. The resistance between the engine manifold, block and the battery negative post should be virtually zero . I have witnessed a magnitude of problem solved by simply cleaning and repairing grounds . People will spend hours looking at Supply and switch side issues and never check the grounds.
@@artcampbell5315 There is a lot of development over many years. Idle circuit, progression, main circuit, fuel enrichment with power valves, accelerator pump circuit, and of course air jets and choke. In the Quadrajet four carbs in one with two primaries and two vacuum operated secondaries. I Worked in shop for years and very very few knew how they worked. Their fix for a carb, take the screws out and bend the floats arms by putting down the body on the bench instantly causing another problem, blowing out the main jets with air line and put it back together, crank with IGN enabled and as soon as fuel gets into bowls to a certain level the engine fires lean and backfires, as the choke is on the backfire blows the power valves diaphragms and now we a leaking in fuel into airstream. Now carb is well messed up. So their fix was the simple carb is screwed buy a new one, do not forget to prime the float bowls fully. Similar with Rochester although secondaries are all controlled by a small spring that goes weak over time. Leads to flat spot as secondaries open to early leading to less suction through primaries and loss of fuel pickup, if you know about the spring and it’s adjustment then an easy fix. Carburettors on a lawnmower maybe simple but unless your a specialist a Quadrajet is not simple. What is simple is EFI electric fuel pump provides pressure to the jets. Solenoids control the jets. Inlet manifold suction controls fuel pressure to compensate for changes in manifold vacuum, a speed signal from distributor a MAP sensor on Inlet a temp sensor on inlet, engine temp signal, a throttle position sensor, knock sensors and oxygen sensors. Maybe even wide band Oxygen sensors. All those bits just bolt on and are wired up, fuelling is controlled by ECU and easy to adjust with the push of some buttons. It’s all so simple😉😀
I think Nick appreciates someone who is knowledgeable about engines to the point they actually know what they are doing and takes a fresh approach to their TH-cam channel with viewers … great job
Of course he edits or he would not be able to have camera angle changes. Unless he has a crew sitting in a production van and all those camera are running live feeds and some dude sitting at a switcher. ( which he does not) I think what you meant to say is all of the dialogue is running without interruption or cuts. We at least hear the good and the bad audio overlayed on different video tracks. I get what you mean and I'm splitting hairs here.
Yes I agree but he had patience with this setup. Just goes to say he's willing to learn he wanted to see the data he's acar guy like us you could see it on his face great video nick
I was just thinking one more look around after start with EFI - and then Nick gets up and does one more look around at 37:15, man, what a engine doctor he is.....
Hay come on, I like old school & he proved to me Carby still got it over EFI for smoothness of power delivery. That is the engine did not shake with the carby.
I'm an "old school" carb guy, but I'll be the first too admit the fuel control on an EFI unit is considerably more precise than a 4bbl. carburetor. Even "dinosaurs " need some compassion! LOL!
We tried a fuel injection on a 1969 L88 427. The camshaft profile with its solid lifter design did not do well with fuel injection, im not bashing it. Im explaining that cam profile makes a big difference !
@@vhp454 totally agree, under 10 inches of vaccum at idle is usually the cut off for how well fuel injection will work and especially with "self learning" Both carb and efi have their places and both can be made to work great with time and effort.
What a great video on carb vs EFI, and what a solid little engine--a well built small block Chevy with the right parts really shows its reputation for reliability, not even a leak or ticking lifter nothing but HP and they really hammered on it.
Being born right on the edge of carb/efi transition I like both. Efi for the ease of get in and crank it and go. Carbs are cool for the low cost of purchase and cool look of dual carb setup.
Fantastic. Great to see the next generation of gearheads doing their thing. Listening two these two go back and forth with their knowledge and understanding of how it all works is just great. Another fantastic show thanks so much
@@cuttersperformance np,I live and breath this,I drive a dump truck,have been for 30yrs,bought an 18 rt 5.7 6spd with my hard work,I spend all day thinking of how to improve her and get all that engine will give,great show thanks.
Yea, But if brandon has his way there will be no more gearheads.- What fun is it putting in bigger fuses in a glorified golf cart? - We better enjoy it while we can. If the election goes the wrong way the end is near. - Teslas don't use headers or cam shafts.
The best thing about fuel injection is that it can adjust for different altitudes, whereas a carb can not. With fuel injection you could go from sea level to 7000 feet up in the mountains with virtually the same performance, and in Southern California you could easily go from the sea to mountains within a few hours time.
also for diff temp's as well. you need more fuel when its 20 out then you need when its say 90 since the air is a bit thinner. at 7000ft no matter what you are losing power but your not running engine at 10:1 air fuel ratio when up there as a carb would be.
I was on board with GM when EFI was released, but was trained in carbs by some of the smartest guys in my hometown. Whether a Weber, Quad, Holley, down draft, all the way to Tillotsons on boats, Keihin on bikes, even weed whackers and chainsaws, if you have a good ear and sense of feel, you can make a motor purr at idle and sing at WOT. Nick and Pat, thank you for a great time watching two intelligent induction enthusiasts do what they love: Make an engine sing like Chris Cornell and Julie Andrews.
OMG, welcome to Nick's Garage 2.0! Christmas came early this year and the big man delivered something we never thought possible. This is the difference between Hollywood and TH-cam: in Hollywood all the best shows that find perfection also reach a peak where viewers can see the inevitable ending coming because you cannot make perfection more perfect(and you viewers cannot watch the same perfection being achieved over and over for very many years beyond a decade), but in TH-cam all the best shows that find perfection that reach their peak have the opportunity to remake themselves and they do so through collaboration with other shows. It is not collaboration within the show that makes the difference, it is the collaboration with other shows that allows the producers and hosts to bring in new content without losing the viewers and their memory of what makes the perfect Nick's Garage episode. Just when viewers were hoping to get a little bit more from Nick before his retirement, you really came through for us, because the big man himself is delivering the creativity in Nick Panaritis that this show needs to continue into muscle car infinity and beyond! Thank you.
Really great to watch the old master and the young master work together in collaboration. Great video, and amazing that parts chosen by the audience did so well in this build!
Also did you notice the EFI was run up to 6,500rpm and the carb was only 6,300 both are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay under a good testing rpm for SBC. We test at 7,000 and 7,500. If the cam has a ton of overlap, 8,200 & up. SBC can't really be tested at 6,500rpm as there just not at peek performance yet.
@@hydroy1 It ALL depends on what cam the engine has in it... 🤷🏻 There are cams that are all done WAY before 7000 RPMs. In a street car application, NO ONE is going to be running an 8200 rpm cam in their engine.
I use a Holley 950 UXP on most of the engines I run and as a jetting verification I have a set of high speed bleeds (4 brass jets next to the bowl vents looking down on the carb) that's .005" larger and a set .005" smaller than the factory bleeds (.032" is stock on the 950) and it's an extremely quick changeover without spilling fuel. 3 pulls, overlay the graphs, and you'll instantly see what the engine wants.
A little more power with the EFI. Keep in mind; You tune a carb on a beautiful sunny day at 30.25” of Mercury, then, the next day, it’s rainy, humid with a storm approaching at 29.15” of Mercury, and yesterday’s tune is yesterday’s news. Not to mention my comment about altitude. Drive that 428 hp. car out to British Columbia, and it will be lucky to climb a grade without fouling your plugs, or overheating. That EFI has air density compensation.
The Holley Throttle body EFI is great. Not just about peak HP/Torque but cold start first crank and warm up and smooth driveability. You can leave car parked for months and it will start first crank with the EFI.
@UCDhJYUerKf6PqcKX4hFe18Q If you run a electric fuel pump to fill the float bowls of the carburetor if the choke is set correctly and it's jetted right it will start up with one pump . My 440 with a Edelbrock 750 performer rpm intake Dyno tuned and jetted for my engine with a 509 purple shaft and headers can sit for a month and as long as I turn the Holley blue pump on first then pump it once it fires right up every time so yes it can be done. Not so easy with a mechanical pump if it sits and drains back and the float bowls get dried up because the engine has to crank over enough times for the mechanical fuel pump to pull fuel and then fill the float bowls again . On my 82 Chevrolet K10 which is my plow truck with a stock 400 SBC that I put in the truck that I replaced the old worm out Q jet with a spacer to put a Edelbrock 600 with a electric choke on if it sits more than a week it has to crank over some while pumping before the float bowls fill back up before it fire up and stays running so there is an advantage of having the electric fuel pump to pre prime the carburetor and make cold starts easier in cold weather verses a mechanical pump . I could put a electric fuel pump on tne truck but it's my plow truck to plow my driveway with plus the pump works good other than if it sits for a while the fuel drains back and the float bowls dry up and it needs to crank a little before they fill up enough to get a accelerator pump shot to prime the carburetor some so it starts which works fine but it's just slower than a electric fuel pump is . I drive the truck in the spring and summer to the car club I belong to just to drive it at times and it runs good and doesn't starve for fuel at WOT when I get on it hard once in a while to clean it out and the pump works good being it's been on this engine that was in a 78 K5 blazer back in 2006 until I had to pull the engine and drive train out of it because the body was toast and I bought the 82 that just needed a engine and swapped the plow over and kept the extra parts for spares for the 82 .
sounds about right. as long as fuel and air aren't choking your performance there should be no difference. The advantages of FI are cold starts, mid throttle response, fuel efficiency, granularity of control.... WOT performance is not something it helps.
Nick, I once tried to take my AAR into the Rockies in Colorado, but had to drive 100 miles back to Colorado Springs to try and find jets and secondary fuel plates and rip apart my sixbarrel setup just to survive the altitude. Fuel injection would have saved me jets, gaskets, and carb plates not to mention nearly a day’s vCation. Think of that if you’re ever in BC!
That was a very interesting episode... The engine responded well with both types of fuel systems... I am a big fan of carburetors, and drive an older vehicle every day that has a carburetor... It is reliable, gets decent fuel mileage and inexpensive to keep running, and very easy to troubleshoot.......
I've got the same heads and a smaller roller cam. I'm hoping for 400+lb/ft@3000rpms and 325hp at around 5000-5200rpms. It's a baby cam, with 202⁰/212⁰@.050" but comparatively high lift at .585"/.581". Should be great in my old pickup. I've just finished gathering all of the parts for a head/cam swap. My heads haven't had the port work that Pat's have. He helped me by recommending the heads and valvetrain parts. I really like his channel. It is very informative. Thanks for a great collaboration.
Hey Eric! I think you will hit your power goals no problem man! I really didnt do much porting with the heads, mostly just cleaning up the oddly shaped intake port opening and pinch point. Thanks for the support!
Nick and George, what a great video and test on that small block Chevy. That was fun to watch and us old dogs learn alittle too . Very nice of Nick to do that and run those test . One of the Best Dynos setups around . I saw the HEI dist.move on the 1st run too. Good music and shots too George. Take It Easy ...
Viewers pay attention. Both of these gentlemen are very good at what they do. It's still taking eight pulls to dial that EFI in and that's without ignition. The self learning claims aren't true. It takes a lot just to get the car running. My experience says you need to find someone with a wheel Dyno and the experience to make the necessary adjustments to optimize running conditions with EFI. You WONT do it at home.
Believe it or not, I find it easier to get the fuel maps dialed in with these system installed in cars rather than on a engine dyno. Usually I street tune them to get the fuel map dialed in close then they go on a wheel dyno for power and final tweaks. I use the laptop and speed up the process with manual adjustments like I did at Nicks. I also do alot of carb tuning and actually do the same sort of thing, in some cases install a wideband in the exhaust for street tuning. Both systems take a certain type of knowledge and skill but it really just boils down to preference in my opinion.
I'm a die hard EFI guy but I tip my hat to gents like you, Nick. It's the master's like you who fix all the little imperfections with carbs to make them worthwhile to compare to EFI....
Carburetor is good, but efi is excellent. Nick has it down to a science on the Carburetors, it is still a mechanical device and has limitations, where efi is not a limitation.
@@yourolddad6407 wrong.efl is always tuning itself that's the magic of it.thats how it works.thats why every thing is efl.some aftermarket ones like this one are more advanced then a stock and are "tuneable" so if you change parts on the build one can recalibrate for changes.
I've been toying with the idea to go EFI for so many years but every time I entertain the thought and do some research, I find so many people having electrical and reliability issues with EFI systems. My Qjet has never failed me, so I think I'll hold on to it for now.
Thank you for doing a fair test, I think it shows that an "original" car would not be losing out on power with a carb but a daily driver might be better with EFI.
What a great motor with great horsepower and torque numbers. Nobody else's Dyno room sounds as good as Nick's. Great job guys. Really enjoyed this one. Take care all. Cheers
I don't remember how I got to either of their channels, but Piss Cutter Performance has been one of my favorite channels lately! His Vortec porting videos have been great, as have his other engines that have dyno proven numbers, such as this one.
The strobing effect between the injector pulses and the camera frame rate is cool. You can tell that the Atomic fires the primary and secondary injectors alternately.
Many of those aftermarket TBI type injection units use a batch fire type software with them, and that's why the alternating injectors. The factory F.I. systems used the same thing back in the day, as they fired all the injectors on one bank of the engine all together, then alternated to the other bank and fired them all, and repeat the cycle. Running the injectors in batch fire like that simplified the hardware and software required, as the PCM didn't have to know where exactly the crankshaft was in it's rotation. It didnt have to know exactly what cylinder was about to fire, since it fired all the injectors on a side at once, and it eliminated an extra sensor, or a dual sync distributor.
@@davelowets When fully sequential multi-point injection systems came out, did you notice that the early ones had a very predictable and longer crank cycle when starting up than carbs or the TBI? They had to "figure out" where the engine was in its firing order, which took at least one full camshaft rotation. I remember my first MPEFI car (a v6) would always crank for 6 compressions and fire on the 7th, whether warmed up or stone cold. It seems natural now, but I had been used to carbs that would fire on the first or second compression if everything was warm, so a lot of times I'd bump the key briefly like my carbureted car and it wouldn't start, so I'd have to crank it again.
@@stevelacker358 Yep... Absolutely, they did have to do that. Now SMPFI cars have a reluctor that indicates more than just the number one cylinder to the pcm so that they fire up more quickly. With the higher tech systems, that also allows individual cylinder ignition timing also. The technology today is so far advanced from even just a decade ago.
@@davelowets and crazier still… some cars with automatic start/stop (eg. engine off at traffic lights) not only remember where the engine is when stopped, but can stop it so that a cylinder is ready to fire the instant the crank starts turning, minimizing any lag when the driver lifts their foot off the brake.
@Your Pappy It’s not a race car just shows decent. I’ve replace a lot. Front discs tube a frames. 5 leaf rear springs. 500 series power steering. It’s a driver and want to be dependable. Also putting a 700R4 as well floors repaired and newer seats. Should be ready for spring.
Cool! Very few people can tune a carb as well as Nick, and fewer yet have a dyno! Carb tuning can change with time and conditions. Modern FI is self-learning and self-tuning, no matter where ya go. A thin metal spacer with a gasket or o-ring on each side would give the distributor clamp something solid instead of more gaskets.
I love that Nick and the other guy didn't focus on the EFI as the problem.... its a common problem to get tunnel vision on a new system and not look at all causes....
Timing control is the game changer for EFI, I understand why they kept the same distributor to make it a "fair" test; because EFI with timing control is a blowout.
Hi Nick and others I think it went real well either way. I see the merits in both but still prefer the carb at the end of the day. George your filming was rather cool too. Till next time be cool everyone.
It's been proven that a carb, at WOT, will make a bit more power than fuel injection. But an engine will make the same power because it doesn't care how it gets its air/fuel. It will only take in what I can take in.
That engine is a belter! I bet it would hit 450 hp with electric pump as nick suggested, and more time setting up the carb. It kept making peak power at max revs.
@@NicksGarage Nick, let's do some rare engines and tweaking when you get them in the shop, whenever you do, Mopars,Fords,Chevrolet, buick,pontiac,Chrysler ...etc.. Maybe some old 409's some 427 Ford FE, tri-power 427 BBC I'd love that,
What I glean from this is that nick has a vast knowledge of carbs that most of us will never understand. That being said, efi has leveled the playing field for many who understand the afr importance but make it much easier to adjust. Nick knew exactly which jet size to go to based on the engine and carb. Most of us have to guess and check.
I never heard of ur channel sir but that is a killer idea for a bit of fun on your tube channel !!!!!! Genius 😎 Smart coming to Nick's Cuz u may get new viewers off Nick 😅!!! A FUN daily driver motor !!! It'll look good sitting the cradle 😉 too !!!
I am a carb fan also.. I run a motocraft 2b on my 76 bronco rock crawler and it never dies not matter if i am going up or down climbs along with off camber lean.. All the efi guys ask me what I am running and the expression no their face when I tell them 2b is priceless because other cards flood or starve . I can fix the carb out on the trail.
That was a great comparison of carb vs. EFI ! Both need dyno or track time to get tuned in, Getting the A/F at cruise RPM correct with the Holley takes a lot of road time. Not ready to throw my "controlled leak" fuel device or screwdrivers away yet!
@@NicksGarage I knew this was going to be a long Monday video, and one that I enjoyed from beginning to end. I still would pick the carb over the EFI just because I'm old school. I have EFI on my other cars, but I like the ease of tuning a carb. I liked how the comparison was done trying to be as fair as possible, but it took way more pulls with the EFI to get everything right. There is still more tuning to be done on the EFI, but the extra power is there if you search for it. The carb was dialed in very quickly. Great video George, the quality just keeps getting better.
In the late sixties and early seventies we didn’t have access to a dyno but our ears were miraculous tuners for our carbureted small block Chevys! I’m sure we left a few horsepower untapped but we did the best we could; I understand why Nick loves his carbs! Great video Nick!
Yeah know I stop living the gearhead life back in the mid 1980's and really left that life and go into heavy duty diesel power in my job as a mechanic in the heavy transport industry. Watching this brings me back to the days or more accurate summer nights in a buddies garage, tweaking setting,, making a run, looking for the best performance and dreaming of other add-ons that can be bolted on or exotic engineering to make a screamer. Thanks Nick and Pat.
You can adjust hydraulic lifters. Tightening them to the recommended so many turns is ball parking them. Each hydraulic lifter pressures up at a slightly different rate then another will. And the rate IS significant across the board. The difference it makes on the tune of the motor is remarkable. Adjusting the hydraulic lifter is probably good for another 5 HP and 5 TQ.
Both types are cool. I’ve had both and the coolest thing about the EFI (I had Sniper) was on initial startup it just ran good right away when cold. The system self learned for a bit, but after a few miles, it was solid. Biggest pet peeve for the EFI was it took forever to set it up vs a carb. We had to have someone specifically trained for it to help out and if anything electrical/computer related died, then the whole things was a PITA to troubleshoot. I still prefer the carbs due to the simplicity. I don’t mind warming them up & I don’t have any elevation change where I live.
Agree on all you said, but think EFI (have reg. Atomic) the better choice for my already factory EFI SBC '91 Camaro Convertible on top of the 383 I am building for it. Same heads, but Summit 1103 cam for driveability with power.
Those types of EFI systems totally suck. The point is to atomize the fuel and what happens? They just pool on the throttle plates and turn back into droplets. With all this effort, it's just better to go port fuel injection. And it's funny that this is just a TBI and now it's being resurrected as "EFI", which used to be reserved mostly for port injection.
Thank you and I think this is one of the better apples for apples comparisons, if I had a daily driver that needed EFI I would consider this system, however having a weekend hot rod I will stick with a carb, fiddling around with the computer trying to pinpoint each parameter would drive me crazy. The carb or the EFI is only as good as the person tuning it.
Great test as it’s showing a direct comparison between the carb and the efi throttle body, no other differences. Great to see the Carb guy and the EFI guy working together to get the max out of both setups. 👍😁
Awesome video! Thank you both for this INCREDIBLE comparison! I have to admit I am a 383ci. stroker fan above the 355ci., set up. However that is a masterfully beautiful 355ci. engine! Both of you can be very proud of this build, and comparison! God bless you both! Please keep doing what you do!
I can see from the overhead video how the fuel is controlled at certain RPMS by the way it is misting from the jets. The pulses are controlled and sequenced according to the programming, at RPM. That's more fun than the GM Crate 350 RamJet I got to run. But there was no laptop to make adjustments. Roadside is no place for tuning engines. Great program today Nick, it was educational. I really appreciate the man behind the camera and editing. I know why your beard is grey. Thanks also for the guest visit from another great channel, this should be done more often. Support one another.
Never once did I ever have a problem with the EFI on my 1994 Chevy 1500 350ci/ 5.7L EFI , the truck is 29 years old. I always thought of the EFI system as being very reliable . I bought it in 1999 with 74,000 miles just sold it a few months ago with 197,000 mile one of the best trucks I had owned. The only reason I sold it was because someone rear ended it, and the insurance totaled it out . The bad part I had just had it repainted it was rust free, rebuilt the transmission, new muffler and tail pipe, 4 new tires and new brakes. About 5 months before.
I enjoy the content so take this as constructive criticism: You spent 10x effort tuning the EFI that had a 100 cfm advantage on the carb to make more hp at the top which was most likely simply due to airflow. On an open plenum manifold this difference would be much less if not non existent. You have one of the most tunable carbs on the planet and you didn't touch an air bleed or an emulsion. You didn't ensure equal fuel flow from the primaries and secondaries, and you tuned the carb to an afr instead of tuning it for best power. The number 1 problem with carbs is they run so well out of the box that very few people actually know how to tune them, popular dyno tuners included.
Hi all. A great in-depth look at carb (Nicks's HP 750 carb) vs. TBI (MSD) at I setup. It is very interesting to see just how close the efi and carb performed. Old tech still works! But of course the efi is infinitely more adjustable and can control timing more accurately. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all at Nicks's Garage.
There is a HUGE difference between running an engine in real life at all sorts of thrills openings and engine revs, compared to running on a dyno and tuning for maximum HP at wide open throttle in a controlled climate environment with pre-set coolant temperature. The EFI will win every day in real world driveability, but theoretically it won't really increase max peak power (provided both are tuned correctly).
850 throttle body VS 750 carburetor the only place it was throttle body, was a couple of peak horsepower! Power under the curve, in tork, goes to the carb! Run it again with an 850 carb! Great job Mr Nick!!!
Being 75, I grew up with SBC's. Still my all-time favorite engine. It was so versatile. I've seen 4 - 48DCOE Webers on one. Amazing sound. Seen one with an early version of a belt driven supercharger. Seen a 302 with Hilborn stacks that was producing 600+HP. I was fortunate to be able to crew for an SCCA Trans-Am Z-28 Camaro in 1969. It was the really tight 302. We overheated at Riverside and dropped out... in third at the time. Oh well... took out a head gasket. Those were some days.... Not knocking the LS engines, at all, but the SBC is a tough act to follow....
I’m guessing that MSD EFI system doesn’t have o2 correction or run in closed loop at WOT since he had to keep adjusting the ranges manually and the afr was still all over the place after each change. 434hp is pretty killer for a budget 355”…
Yeah its does but because of the time crunch I was quickly manually adjusting to speed up the process. The closer the base fuel map is the better the system works. After we filmed this episode I got the tune quite close, added timing control and got even more average power and peak torque. Then we got wild and put a turbo on it...poor little 355 haha 😄 took it like a champ
The excitement in Nick's face is like a four year old on Christmas Eve. He definitely loves his job and loves to share his knowledge. It was a joy to watch 👍
How cool is Nick to work with other guys sharing his vast knowledge and his time which is priceless. What a great guy.
Thanks Charles.
Nick is such a great guy, I had a ton of fun at the shop. All the guys at the shop treated me like one of the crew. True blue car guys and thats what its all about
@@cuttersperformancenice work listening to you explain things really held my interest 👍
@@edward-x3s6f thank you, I live and breathe this stuff and appreciate the positive feedback
@@cuttersperformance Nick is a really great guy!! Super nice and extremely talented.
This is AWESOME to watch the older and the younger WORKING TOGETHER!!
I have to side with Uncle Bucko this vid. I know majority of fans understand wrenching. This man is fixing two nephews multiple drag cars. His bros and sis in laws vehicles. And completed his own S-10 engine swap. Oh oh then goes out to Grandpa's and helps with planting and tractor duties. UB u are a good man,son, uncle , bro ..... See y boys turned into such good young men. Who else watch vids and either share or send text to family member? All it takes. Wish all SRC family great fathers day weekend and b safe.
Love old timers and just being around them to listen and learn from.... Always grateful for everything 🙏🙏🙏
This is real! Where on the planet can anyone get content like this! Two guys coming together to make these tests between old school Carburator and modern EFI!
Greatest show on the Earth. Period
It is amazing just how well a carburetor can work through all the rpm range considering what’s happening, idle circuits, primaries, secondaries, high speed enrichment and all using vacuum as a trigger. I think most of us appreciate EFI when we go out and start the car on a cold winter day, but after spending about 6 months trying to diagnose and fix my EFI engine with an intermittent idle problem, an old Carter AFB is looking pretty good about now.
I had a car with a small block that needed to be ultra reliable, because it was literally a work car.
I originally had a Quadrajet on it, and had that tuned so perfectly that I just needed to tap the pedal to set the choke, and she would fire up a lot faster than injection.
When I went to a Carter, same thing.
Something you might want to check is on some of the snipers (not sure about other makes) the injector harnesses can become loose and cause intermittent fueling problems. This happened to me on my 67 Cuda, pulled my hair out trying to figure out the problem.
Carbs are not that complicated except for the emission controls
@@dangeary2134 a very common problem is a bad ground cable on the engine, paint or rust on the connection. The resistance between the engine manifold, block and the battery negative post should be virtually zero . I have witnessed a magnitude of problem solved by simply cleaning and repairing grounds . People will spend hours looking at Supply and switch side issues and never check the grounds.
@@artcampbell5315 There is a lot of development over many years. Idle circuit, progression, main circuit, fuel enrichment with power valves, accelerator pump circuit, and of course air jets and choke. In the Quadrajet four carbs in one with two primaries and two vacuum operated secondaries. I Worked in shop for years and very very few knew how they worked. Their fix for a carb, take the screws out and bend the floats arms by putting down the body on the bench instantly causing another problem, blowing out the main jets with air line and put it back together, crank with IGN enabled and as soon as fuel gets into bowls to a certain level the engine fires lean and backfires, as the choke is on the backfire blows the power valves diaphragms and now we a leaking in fuel into airstream. Now carb is well messed up. So their fix was the simple carb is screwed buy a new one, do not forget to prime the float bowls fully. Similar with Rochester although secondaries are all controlled by a small spring that goes weak over time. Leads to flat spot as secondaries open to early leading to less suction through primaries and loss of fuel pickup, if you know about the spring and it’s adjustment then an easy fix. Carburettors on a lawnmower maybe simple but unless your a specialist a Quadrajet is not simple. What is simple is EFI electric fuel pump provides pressure to the jets. Solenoids control the jets. Inlet manifold suction controls fuel pressure to compensate for changes in manifold vacuum, a speed signal from distributor a MAP sensor on Inlet a temp sensor on inlet, engine temp signal, a throttle position sensor, knock sensors and oxygen sensors. Maybe even wide band Oxygen sensors. All those bits just bolt on and are wired up, fuelling is controlled by ECU and easy to adjust with the push of some buttons. It’s all so simple😉😀
This video just proved that Nick knows how to tune a carb.
It sure did and that's because he knows his stuff.
Hey a 750 carb vs he said 800 cfm EFI
With the disposal of Dyno lol
Yeah, Nick Really Knows What He Is Doing... No B.S. On This TH-cam Channel.,
I’d bet the efi flows more than 800 cfm. It’s prob 900 + cfm
I think Nick appreciates someone who is knowledgeable about engines to the point they actually know what they are doing and takes a fresh approach to their TH-cam channel with viewers … great job
I appreciate that! Thank you
I love how Nick doesn’t edit. You see the warts and all . But you also see his genius when he trouble shoots an issue . Great video!
Of course he edits or he would not be able to have camera angle changes. Unless he has a crew sitting in a production van and all those camera are running live feeds and some dude sitting at a switcher. ( which he does not) I think what you meant to say is all of the dialogue is running without interruption or cuts. We at least hear the good and the bad audio overlayed on different video tracks. I get what you mean and I'm splitting hairs here.
Nick is so old school cool- not many like him these days.
Yes I agree but he had patience with this setup. Just goes to say he's willing to learn he wanted to see the data he's acar guy like us you could see it on his face great video nick
I was just thinking one more look around after start with EFI - and then Nick gets up and does one more look around at 37:15, man, what a engine doctor he is.....
I bet Nick listens to vinyl, which is cool also.
It's the only way...old school rules, based in facts, and trial and error
Hay come on, I like old school & he proved to me Carby still got it over EFI for smoothness of power delivery. That is the engine did not shake with the carby.
I was sure hoping they saw the timing moving the first 3 pulls! Glad you figured that out.
i was just like, the distributor just moved? they really missed that out.
ya at 9:44 that distributer was moving !! that`ll make her ping...
still moving @ 53:02
I noticed that right away too! Not good.
Once the distributor is included, I would think you could find a couple more HP up top pulling some timing out.
ya i saw that
I'm an "old school" carb guy, but I'll be the first too admit the fuel control on an EFI unit is considerably more precise than a 4bbl. carburetor. Even "dinosaurs " need some compassion! LOL!
Both work fantastic if setup correctly. If anything its really amazing how well a carb works for a simple device and old technology
We tried a fuel injection on a 1969 L88 427. The camshaft profile with its solid lifter design did not do well with fuel injection, im not bashing it. Im explaining that cam profile makes a big difference !
@@vhp454 totally agree, under 10 inches of vaccum at idle is usually the cut off for how well fuel injection will work and especially with "self learning" Both carb and efi have their places and both can be made to work great with time and effort.
@@cuttersperformance Why do they work so well on NASCAR V8's ?
@@heathwirt8919 total different set up in Nascar
This is a great concept for an engine build. I’m glad they picked Nick. This will be entertaining as heck.
Appreciate that!
i was a carb guy for years.
i just love efi with no fuel spills or jet changes and so easy for tiny changes to be so accurate.
nice vid guys
What a great video on carb vs EFI, and what a solid little engine--a well built small block Chevy with the right parts really shows its reputation for reliability, not even a leak or ticking lifter nothing but HP and they really hammered on it.
Being born right on the edge of carb/efi transition I like both. Efi for the ease of get in and crank it and go. Carbs are cool for the low cost of purchase and cool look of dual carb setup.
Well said!
Fantastic. Great to see the next generation of gearheads doing their thing. Listening two these two go back and forth with their knowledge and understanding of how it all works is just great. Another fantastic show thanks so much
I appreciate that! Thank you
@@cuttersperformance np,I live and breath this,I drive a dump truck,have been for 30yrs,bought an 18 rt 5.7 6spd with my hard work,I spend all day thinking of how to improve her and get all that engine will give,great show thanks.
@@kevinwoolmer5478 thats awesome man! The performance addiction is real but all part of the fun!
@@kevinwoolmer5478 47:44 47:45 47:46
Yea, But if brandon has his way there will be no more gearheads.- What fun is it putting in bigger fuses in a glorified golf cart? - We better enjoy it while we can. If the election goes the wrong way the end is near. - Teslas don't use headers or cam shafts.
The best thing about fuel injection is that it can adjust for different altitudes, whereas a carb can not. With fuel injection you could go from sea level to 7000 feet up in the mountains with virtually the same performance, and in Southern California you could easily go from the sea to mountains within a few hours time.
also for diff temp's as well. you need more fuel when its 20 out then you need when its say 90 since the air is a bit thinner. at 7000ft no matter what you are losing power but your not running engine at 10:1 air fuel ratio when up there as a carb would be.
I was on board with GM when EFI was released, but was trained in carbs by some of the smartest guys in my hometown. Whether a Weber, Quad, Holley, down draft, all the way to Tillotsons on boats, Keihin on bikes, even weed whackers and chainsaws, if you have a good ear and sense of feel, you can make a motor purr at idle and sing at WOT. Nick and Pat, thank you for a great time watching two intelligent induction enthusiasts do what they love: Make an engine sing like Chris Cornell and Julie Andrews.
OMG, welcome to Nick's Garage 2.0! Christmas came early this year and the big man delivered something we never thought possible. This is the difference between Hollywood and TH-cam: in Hollywood all the best shows that find perfection also reach a peak where viewers can see the inevitable ending coming because you cannot make perfection more perfect(and you viewers cannot watch the same perfection being achieved over and over for very many years beyond a decade), but in TH-cam all the best shows that find perfection that reach their peak have the opportunity to remake themselves and they do so through collaboration with other shows. It is not collaboration within the show that makes the difference, it is the collaboration with other shows that allows the producers and hosts to bring in new content without losing the viewers and their memory of what makes the perfect Nick's Garage episode. Just when viewers were hoping to get a little bit more from Nick before his retirement, you really came through for us, because the big man himself is delivering the creativity in Nick Panaritis that this show needs to continue into muscle car infinity and beyond! Thank you.
Really great to watch the old master and the young master work together in collaboration. Great video, and amazing that parts chosen by the audience did so well in this build!
old & young, ..still overlooking some kinks..
Best carb vs. EFI test I've seen. That is one sweet Chevy.
I'm not a Chevy fan but this one is a cut above the rest & the setup was well chosen I think.
Who else saw the distributor move like crazy? It turned a lot
Always lock down the distributor and scribe a mark for Reference .
Also did you notice the EFI was run up to 6,500rpm and the carb was only 6,300 both are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay under a good testing rpm for SBC. We test at 7,000 and 7,500. If the cam has a ton of overlap, 8,200 & up. SBC can't really be tested at 6,500rpm as there just not at peek performance yet.
@@hydroy1 maybe he is still be on the cautious side. the graph shows that the hp is still climbing.
@@hydroy1 It ALL depends on what cam the engine has in it... 🤷🏻
There are cams that are all done WAY before 7000 RPMs.
In a street car application, NO ONE is going to be running an 8200 rpm cam in their engine.
@@davelowets ye of so little faith, my dad's daily is a '76 c10 heavy half with "the biggest hydraulic roller cam in the catalog"
Carbs are amazing for their simplicity..............I have raced Weber DCOE's and they are so easy to look after and keep running perfect.
I use a Holley 950 UXP on most of the engines I run and as a jetting verification I have a set of high speed bleeds (4 brass jets next to the bowl vents looking down on the carb) that's .005" larger and a set .005" smaller than the factory bleeds (.032" is stock on the 950) and it's an extremely quick changeover without spilling fuel. 3 pulls, overlay the graphs, and you'll instantly see what the engine wants.
This video is a testament of the carb tuning skills of Nick, same power without a computer.
A little more power with the EFI.
Keep in mind;
You tune a carb on a beautiful sunny day at 30.25” of Mercury, then, the next day, it’s rainy, humid with a storm approaching at 29.15” of Mercury, and yesterday’s tune is yesterday’s news. Not to mention my comment about altitude. Drive that 428 hp. car out to British Columbia, and it will be lucky to climb a grade without fouling your plugs, or overheating. That EFI has air density compensation.
@@edhackett6058 so false. You're not even close.
@@tahcogunworks ;
How so? Explain please.
The Holley Throttle body EFI is great. Not just about peak HP/Torque but cold start first crank and warm up and smooth driveability. You can leave car parked for months and it will start first crank with the EFI.
I can do that with my Holley carb on press of throttle to set choke turn key fires right up.
@@nhlba3301 ok whatever you say.
@@nhlba3301 well my old man did first but I keep her tuned right. lol
@@Thumper68 oh Gotcha 👌🏼👌🏼!!! That knowledge is key believe me lol
@UCDhJYUerKf6PqcKX4hFe18Q If you run a electric fuel pump to fill the float bowls of the carburetor if the choke is set correctly and it's jetted right it will start up with one pump . My 440 with a Edelbrock 750 performer rpm intake Dyno tuned and jetted for my engine with a 509 purple shaft and headers can sit for a month and as long as I turn the Holley blue pump on first then pump it once it fires right up every time so yes it can be done. Not so easy with a mechanical pump if it sits and drains back and the float bowls get dried up because the engine has to crank over enough times for the mechanical fuel pump to pull fuel and then fill the float bowls again . On my 82 Chevrolet K10 which is my plow truck with a stock 400 SBC that I put in the truck that I replaced the old worm out Q jet with a spacer to put a Edelbrock 600 with a electric choke on if it sits more than a week it has to crank over some while pumping before the float bowls fill back up before it fire up and stays running so there is an advantage of having the electric fuel pump to pre prime the carburetor and make cold starts easier in cold weather verses a mechanical pump . I could put a electric fuel pump on tne truck but it's my plow truck to plow my driveway with plus the pump works good other than if it sits for a while the fuel drains back and the float bowls dry up and it needs to crank a little before they fill up enough to get a accelerator pump shot to prime the carburetor some so it starts which works fine but it's just slower than a electric fuel pump is . I drive the truck in the spring and summer to the car club I belong to just to drive it at times and it runs good and doesn't starve for fuel at WOT when I get on it hard once in a while to clean it out and the pump works good being it's been on this engine that was in a 78 K5 blazer back in 2006 until I had to pull the engine and drive train out of it because the body was toast and I bought the 82 that just needed a engine and swapped the plow over and kept the extra parts for spares for the 82 .
355 Hydraulic Cam
SBC Carb 424.6 hp 6000 and 417.2 ft/lbs 4700
F.I. 429.7 hp 6200 and 420.0 ft/lbs 4700
sounds about right. as long as fuel and air aren't choking your performance there should be no difference. The advantages of FI are cold starts, mid throttle response, fuel efficiency, granularity of control.... WOT performance is not something it helps.
I was going to go with fuel injection for my 67 Camaro restore with a 383 ….but after watching this i think I am gonna stay with Carb for sure
Great to watch you to guys working together. Oh to be 55 years younger. Yes I know; careful what you wish for.🦊
Nick, I once tried to take my AAR into the Rockies in Colorado, but had to drive 100 miles back to Colorado Springs to try and find jets and secondary fuel plates and rip apart my sixbarrel setup just to survive the altitude. Fuel injection would have saved me jets, gaskets, and carb plates not to mention nearly a day’s vCation. Think of that if you’re ever in BC!
never get tired hearing the growl of an engine pumping serious power and RPM!
That was a very interesting episode... The engine responded well with both types of fuel systems... I am a big fan of carburetors, and drive an older vehicle every day that has a carburetor... It is reliable, gets decent fuel mileage and inexpensive to keep running, and very easy to troubleshoot.......
I have always enjoyed seeing Nick work. He is always seeking to learn the possibilities without detonating the engines.
wow just wow, this was the most informative carburator comparison Ive ever seen.
Thank you!
That was a pleasure to watch...You guys kept it simple,easy to understand and very informative.
I've got the same heads and a smaller roller cam. I'm hoping for 400+lb/ft@3000rpms and 325hp at around 5000-5200rpms. It's a baby cam, with 202⁰/212⁰@.050" but comparatively high lift at .585"/.581". Should be great in my old pickup. I've just finished gathering all of the parts for a head/cam swap.
My heads haven't had the port work that Pat's have. He helped me by recommending the heads and valvetrain parts. I really like his channel. It is very informative. Thanks for a great collaboration.
Hey Eric! I think you will hit your power goals no problem man! I really didnt do much porting with the heads, mostly just cleaning up the oddly shaped intake port opening and pinch point. Thanks for the support!
Nick and George, what a great video and test on that small block Chevy. That was fun to watch and us old dogs learn alittle too . Very nice of Nick to do that and run those test . One of the Best Dynos setups around . I saw the HEI dist.move on the 1st run too. Good music and shots too George. Take It Easy ...
nice to be in on this test, thanks so much, fun to see this on the dyno!
Vanishing Point Poster , on the wall 52:49
Damn Good Film
I learned so much from watching this video.
Dude built a solid little engine.
Really appreciate that! Thank you
This is one of the best tuner review videos I have ever seen.. Very well done Thanks Nick and Pat and crew!!
Viewers pay attention. Both of these gentlemen are very good at what they do. It's still taking eight pulls to dial that EFI in and that's without ignition. The self learning claims aren't true. It takes a lot just to get the car running. My experience says you need to find someone with a wheel Dyno and the experience to make the necessary adjustments to optimize running conditions with EFI. You WONT do it at home.
Believe it or not, I find it easier to get the fuel maps dialed in with these system installed in cars rather than on a engine dyno. Usually I street tune them to get the fuel map dialed in close then they go on a wheel dyno for power and final tweaks. I use the laptop and speed up the process with manual adjustments like I did at Nicks. I also do alot of carb tuning and actually do the same sort of thing, in some cases install a wideband in the exhaust for street tuning.
Both systems take a certain type of knowledge and skill but it really just boils down to preference in my opinion.
I'm a die hard EFI guy but I tip my hat to gents like you, Nick. It's the master's like you who fix all the little imperfections with carbs to make them worthwhile to compare to EFI....
Carburetor is good, but efi is excellent. Nick has it down to a science on the Carburetors, it is still a mechanical device and has limitations, where efi is not a limitation.
How fast Nick had that carb dialed in was amazing! Great Videos Guys please keep them coming!
It's that easy when you have a wide band.
@@reifonseca5767 and decades of experience. The EFI matched it on the first pull with diddly for tuning.
@@yourolddad6407 wrong.efl is always tuning itself that's the magic of it.thats how it works.thats why every thing is efl.some aftermarket ones like this one are more advanced then a stock and are "tuneable" so if you change parts on the build one can recalibrate for changes.
@@reifonseca5767 What if its closed loop.
Thank you guys! The one other advantage of EFI I kept thinking about is daily climate changes and or altitude.
Shoutout to Dwayne too for being right in there and catching multiple things because any mechanic knows a 2nd set of eyes is a life saver!
Either or set up is fine. Thing is with FI, you can dial it in precisely all over the board without getting your hands dirty and wasting extra time.
I've been toying with the idea to go EFI for so many years but every time I entertain the thought and do some research, I find so many people having electrical and reliability issues with EFI systems. My Qjet has never failed me, so I think I'll hold on to it for now.
Glad to see the collaboration two great engine builders!
Thank you for doing a fair test, I think it shows that an "original" car would not be losing out on power with a carb but a daily driver might be better with EFI.
Congrats to Pat's subscribers! The engine they designed is a Goliath slayer. Nice job.
420 of torque isn't exactly a 'Goliath' slayer.
VERY COOL VIDEO GUYS 👍. I'M AN OLD SCHOOL CARB GUY MYSELF, BUT YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT EFI IS THE FUTURE.
Holy cow!! Gotta be hard core to watch 80 minutes of carb vs fuel injection!
And for a 355 with parts picked from fans seemed to make a good little small block!
I was really impressed at what was put together too. It's a good sleeper motor that one.
What a great motor with great horsepower and torque numbers. Nobody else's Dyno room sounds as good as Nick's. Great job guys. Really enjoyed this one. Take care all. Cheers
Dr. Nick, this is why I like this channel, all ways good content, good work George, cheers.
I don't remember how I got to either of their channels, but Piss Cutter Performance has been one of my favorite channels lately! His Vortec porting videos have been great, as have his other engines that have dyno proven numbers, such as this one.
Appreciate that alot!
The strobing effect between the injector pulses and the camera frame rate is cool. You can tell that the Atomic fires the primary and secondary injectors alternately.
Isn't that cool?
Many of those aftermarket TBI type injection units use a batch fire type software with them, and that's why the alternating injectors. The factory F.I. systems used the same thing back in the day, as they fired all the injectors on one bank of the engine all together, then alternated to the other bank and fired them all, and repeat the cycle.
Running the injectors in batch fire like that simplified the hardware and software required, as the PCM didn't have to know where exactly the crankshaft was in it's rotation. It didnt have to know exactly what cylinder was about to fire, since it fired all the injectors on a side at once, and it eliminated an extra sensor, or a dual sync distributor.
@@davelowets When fully sequential multi-point injection systems came out, did you notice that the early ones had a very predictable and longer crank cycle when starting up than carbs or the TBI? They had to "figure out" where the engine was in its firing order, which took at least one full camshaft rotation. I remember my first MPEFI car (a v6) would always crank for 6 compressions and fire on the 7th, whether warmed up or stone cold. It seems natural now, but I had been used to carbs that would fire on the first or second compression if everything was warm, so a lot of times I'd bump the key briefly like my carbureted car and it wouldn't start, so I'd have to crank it again.
@@stevelacker358 Yep... Absolutely, they did have to do that. Now SMPFI cars have a reluctor that indicates more than just the number one cylinder to the pcm so that they fire up more quickly. With the higher tech systems, that also allows individual cylinder ignition timing also. The technology today is so far advanced from even just a decade ago.
@@davelowets and crazier still… some cars with automatic start/stop (eg. engine off at traffic lights) not only remember where the engine is when stopped, but can stop it so that a cylinder is ready to fire the instant the crank starts turning, minimizing any lag when the driver lifts their foot off the brake.
That’s what I have being built for my 57 Chev. Hoping for around 300 hp.
Nice job Guys!
@Your Pappy
It’s not a race car just shows decent.
I’ve replace a lot. Front discs tube a frames. 5 leaf rear springs.
500 series power steering.
It’s a driver and want to be dependable.
Also putting a 700R4 as well
floors repaired and newer seats.
Should be ready for spring.
Cool! Very few people can tune a carb as well as Nick, and fewer yet have a dyno! Carb tuning can change with time and conditions. Modern FI is self-learning and self-tuning, no matter where ya go.
A thin metal spacer with a gasket or o-ring on each side would give the distributor clamp something solid instead of more gaskets.
I love that Nick and the other guy didn't focus on the EFI as the problem.... its a common problem to get tunnel vision on a new system and not look at all causes....
Timing control is the game changer for EFI, I understand why they kept the same distributor to make it a "fair" test; because EFI with timing control is a blowout.
Hi Nick and others I think it went real well either way. I see the merits in both but still prefer the carb at the end of the day. George your filming was rather cool too. Till next time be cool everyone.
This is the type of content folks like to see.
It's been proven that a carb, at WOT, will make a bit more power than fuel injection. But an engine will make the same power because it doesn't care how it gets its air/fuel. It will only take in what I can take in.
An excellent video comparing carbs and efi. Thanks to both of you for the videos you put out.
Thank you!
That engine is a belter! I bet it would hit 450 hp with electric pump as nick suggested, and more time setting up the carb. It kept making peak power at max revs.
Great video! I really learned about EFI and how it can be played with. I agree 100% when he said it becomes addicting!
Always chasing that perfect tune haha
@18:11 results messed us as the distributor moved. Legend has it that this distributor still has a mind of it's own to this day.
One of your best videos ever! Thanks Nick.
Wow, thanks!
@@NicksGarage Nick, let's do some rare engines and tweaking when you get them in the shop, whenever you do, Mopars,Fords,Chevrolet, buick,pontiac,Chrysler ...etc..
Maybe some old 409's some 427 Ford FE, tri-power 427 BBC
I'd love that,
Nick has lived and breathed engines and combustion for decades. We are so glad he shares his know-how with us.
What I glean from this is that nick has a vast knowledge of carbs that most of us will never understand. That being said, efi has leveled the playing field for many who understand the afr importance but make it much easier to adjust. Nick knew exactly which jet size to go to based on the engine and carb. Most of us have to guess and check.
I like the the EFI bolt on got the same numbers out of the box! It will cold start and idle too! love my 600DP but am going to get a sniper....
Nick, Pat and George, Awesome job on this video. Fantastic comparison between carb and EFI.
Blowing me away how much that dizzy is walking around. The overhead camera view is priceless, thx
I never heard of ur channel sir but that is a killer idea for a bit of fun on your tube channel !!!!!! Genius 😎
Smart coming to Nick's
Cuz u may get new viewers off Nick 😅!!!
A FUN daily driver motor !!! It'll look good sitting the cradle 😉 too !!!
I am a carb fan also.. I run a motocraft 2b on my 76 bronco rock crawler and it never dies not matter if i am going up or down climbs along with off camber lean.. All the efi guys ask me what I am running and the expression no their face when I tell them 2b is priceless because other cards flood or starve . I can fix the carb out on the trail.
That was a great comparison of carb vs. EFI ! Both need dyno or track time to get tuned in, Getting the A/F at cruise RPM correct with the Holley takes a lot of road time. Not ready to throw my "controlled leak" fuel device or screwdrivers away yet!
This was a really good video Nick, and two of my favorite engine guys working together Nick and P Cutter....that was the best!
H Nick, I'm interested in seeing this comparison, between carb, and EFI.
Settle in! We did lots of tests in this one!
@@NicksGarage I knew this was going to be a long Monday video, and one that I enjoyed from beginning to end. I still would pick the carb over the EFI just because I'm old school. I have EFI on my other cars, but I like the ease of tuning a carb. I liked how the comparison was done trying to be as fair as possible, but it took way more pulls with the EFI to get everything right. There is still more tuning to be done on the EFI, but the extra power is there if you search for it. The carb was dialed in very quickly. Great video George, the quality just keeps getting better.
In the late sixties and early seventies we didn’t have access to a dyno but our ears were miraculous tuners for our carbureted small block Chevys! I’m sure we left a few horsepower untapped but we did the best we could; I understand why Nick loves his carbs! Great video Nick!
@frankjacoby9460 😮that's exactly right ..we seldom used a timing light. Just loosen the distributor and dial it in with our ears.😅
Yeah know I stop living the gearhead life back in the mid 1980's and really left that life and go into heavy duty diesel power in my job as a mechanic in the heavy transport industry. Watching this brings me back to the days or more accurate summer nights in a buddies garage, tweaking setting,, making a run, looking for the best performance and dreaming of other add-ons that can be bolted on or exotic engineering to make a screamer. Thanks Nick and Pat.
You can adjust hydraulic lifters. Tightening them to the recommended so many turns is ball parking them. Each hydraulic lifter pressures up at a slightly different rate then another will. And the rate IS significant across the board. The difference it makes on the tune of the motor is remarkable. Adjusting the hydraulic lifter is probably good for another 5 HP and 5 TQ.
Both types are cool. I’ve had both and the coolest thing about the EFI (I had Sniper) was on initial startup it just ran good right away when cold. The system self learned for a bit, but after a few miles, it was solid. Biggest pet peeve for the EFI was it took forever to set it up vs a carb. We had to have someone specifically trained for it to help out and if anything electrical/computer related died, then the whole things was a PITA to troubleshoot. I still prefer the carbs due to the simplicity. I don’t mind warming them up & I don’t have any elevation change where I live.
Agree on all you said, but think EFI (have reg. Atomic) the better choice for my already factory EFI SBC '91 Camaro Convertible on top of the 383 I am building for it. Same heads, but Summit 1103 cam for driveability with power.
Awesome! This is the one I’ve been waiting for, a bow tie small block!
Hope you like it!
@@NicksGarageOh I will. I like all of them! Love the channel! I’m asking for merch for Christmas!🎅🏻 🎄 🎅🏻
haven't seen a small block ford in awhile!
@@josephf593 keep waiting on it. God Gm ls lt SBC bbc for the win.
@@god1st.530 whatever you say pal. Government motors
Those types of EFI systems totally suck. The point is to atomize the fuel and what happens? They just pool on the throttle plates and turn back into droplets. With all this effort, it's just better to go port fuel injection. And it's funny that this is just a TBI and now it's being resurrected as "EFI", which used to be reserved mostly for port injection.
You can see the distributor turning at 9:42 and 18:13, retarding the timing and losing power.
Thank you and I think this is one of the better apples for apples comparisons, if I had a daily driver that needed EFI I would consider this system, however having a weekend hot rod I will stick with a carb, fiddling around with the computer trying to pinpoint each parameter would drive me crazy. The carb or the EFI is only as good as the person tuning it.
Great test as it’s showing a direct comparison between the carb and the efi throttle body, no other differences. Great to see the Carb guy and the EFI guy working together to get the max out of both setups. 👍😁
Awesome video! Thank you both for this INCREDIBLE comparison! I have to admit I am a 383ci. stroker fan above the 355ci., set up. However that is a masterfully beautiful 355ci. engine! Both of you can be very proud of this build, and comparison! God bless you both! Please keep doing what you do!
Thanks for watching!
I can see from the overhead video how the fuel is controlled at certain RPMS by the way it is misting from the jets. The pulses are controlled and sequenced according to the programming, at RPM.
That's more fun than the GM Crate 350 RamJet I got to run. But there was no laptop to make adjustments. Roadside is no place for tuning engines.
Great program today Nick, it was educational.
I really appreciate the man behind the camera and editing. I know why your beard is grey.
Thanks also for the guest visit from another great channel, this should be done more often. Support one another.
Never once did I ever have a problem with the EFI on my 1994 Chevy 1500 350ci/ 5.7L EFI , the truck is 29 years old. I always thought of the EFI system as being very reliable . I bought it in 1999 with 74,000 miles just sold it a few months ago with 197,000 mile one of the best trucks I had owned. The only reason I sold it was because someone rear ended it, and the insurance totaled it out . The bad part I had just had it repainted it was rust free, rebuilt the transmission, new muffler and tail pipe, 4 new tires and new brakes. About 5 months before.
I enjoy the content so take this as constructive criticism: You spent 10x effort tuning the EFI that had a 100 cfm advantage on the carb to make more hp at the top which was most likely simply due to airflow. On an open plenum manifold this difference would be much less if not non existent.
You have one of the most tunable carbs on the planet and you didn't touch an air bleed or an emulsion. You didn't ensure equal fuel flow from the primaries and secondaries, and you tuned the carb to an afr instead of tuning it for best power.
The number 1 problem with carbs is they run so well out of the box that very few people actually know how to tune them, popular dyno tuners included.
Hi all. A great in-depth look at carb (Nicks's HP 750 carb) vs. TBI (MSD) at I setup. It is very interesting to see just how close the efi and carb performed. Old tech still works! But of course the efi is infinitely more adjustable and can control timing more accurately. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all at Nicks's Garage.
Good explanation! Yes the Tbi is basically a very adjustable carb. Cheers and Merry Christmas!
There is a HUGE difference between running an engine in real life at all sorts of thrills openings and engine revs, compared to running on a dyno and tuning for maximum HP at wide open throttle in a controlled climate environment with pre-set coolant temperature.
The EFI will win every day in real world driveability, but theoretically it won't really increase max peak power (provided both are tuned correctly).
Old school versus new school thanks for the master class
850 throttle body VS 750 carburetor the only place it was throttle body, was a couple of peak horsepower! Power under the curve, in tork, goes to the carb!
Run it again with an 850 carb! Great job Mr Nick!!!
Being 75, I grew up with SBC's. Still my all-time favorite engine. It was so versatile. I've seen 4 - 48DCOE Webers on one. Amazing sound. Seen one with an early version of a belt driven supercharger. Seen a 302 with Hilborn stacks that was producing 600+HP. I was fortunate to be able to crew for an SCCA Trans-Am Z-28 Camaro in 1969. It was the really tight 302. We overheated at Riverside and dropped out... in third at the time. Oh well... took out a head gasket.
Those were some days....
Not knocking the LS engines, at all, but the SBC is a tough act to follow....
I’m guessing that MSD EFI system doesn’t have o2 correction or run in closed loop at WOT since he had to keep adjusting the ranges manually and the afr was still all over the place after each change. 434hp is pretty killer for a budget 355”…
Yeah its does but because of the time crunch I was quickly manually adjusting to speed up the process. The closer the base fuel map is the better the system works. After we filmed this episode I got the tune quite close, added timing control and got even more average power and peak torque. Then we got wild and put a turbo on it...poor little 355 haha 😄 took it like a champ
02 correction is typically only for idle and cruise. Heavy throttle means running on a fuel map