Is it worth it? Replacing your carburetor with a Holley Sniper EFI | Hagerty DIY
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.พ. 2020
- Is upgrading from your trusty Holley carburetor to fuel injection worth the trouble? Davin puts the Redline Rebuild Ford 289 on the engine dyno to find out if the Holley Sniper EFI is really an improvement over a standard four-barrel.
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The point of EFI isn't more power, the point of EFI is better starting, better fuel economy, more accurate fuel distribution between cylinders, altitude compensation, fuel grade compensation, knock compensation and vastly improved reliability.
All of which creates more power while dealing with more variables.
I'd add it's safer too as I've seen countless carburetor fires.
@@emptymannull When you're talking SFI with 2 lambdas, full timing control, full electronic single coil igniton and such stuff, well, then you might get a good amount more than with a well tuned carb.
Because with SFI you can do such jazz as cylinder selective adaptations, knock compensation, barometric compensation, pull timing out and in as you like, the only limit is the sky (and the engine).
I would prefer a EFI/SFI with all the electronics and stuff, because it unlocks a good amount of power, can compensate a lot of things and is pretty safe and reliable. ^^
Pfffttt okay my family has Holley snipers and all they ever have is problems my Holley 750 double pumper works fine 🤔
If you have ever driven carbs in the winter, you know that fuel injection runs so much better in these conditions.
After 2 1/2 years of running the Holley EFI system in my 1972 De Tomaso Pantera, we finally gave up two weeks ago. 30 months of the EFI shutting down every time the engine temperature got to 160*F, leaving me stranded in some very dangerous situations, where I was stuck for 20 minutes or so waiting for the engine to cool down, so that I could start and drive again did it for me. 30 months of trying and failing to diagnose the issue, and the last 60 days trying and failing to contact Holley, who is not answering phones at all, was enough for me. I wanted to drive my Pantera before I was too old (68) to be able to do so. The Edelbrock carb is back in and so far running fine. On customer service alone, I would never order another Holley product again!
Thanks for for letting everyone know about your experience with that. I at least know not to go with the Holly setup. I wonder if FiTech, Jegs or Aces are any better?
Davin is the Bob Ross of engine tuning. His calm demeanor is magnetic. The video also left me with ZERO questions about how to install the sniper kit. Very thorough. Thanks
There were actually a couple things done incorrectly in the installation in this video. The first that comes to mind is they connected the main ground to the bell housing bolt and the main power to the starter solenoid. Both of those 100% need to go to the battery. They got lucky it worked fine like that.
I think the biggest benefits are real world situations. The carb is set and done. The EFI is able to make a lot more adjustments according to temperature, humidity etc. They did a video a few years ago to see if its worth it and the fuel economy alone is worth it
Blessed be
@@SmokedTirez "Soon the gov't will be putting an end to all of this........." - yeah right - the government is going to STOP whatever.
@@SmokedTirez you can't run a vacuum distributor with holley EFI because the EFI system can read and adjust a vacuum distributor lol
I having to warm up carbureted engines in the winter is a huge benefit
Just ls swap it
This was pretty cool Davin. You guys just bring something more to this I find. Far more in depth than other shows, it's like a workshop
David, you rock - I am fascinated with your time lapse rebuilds - Very entertaining for me. Great stull - love the scores too - take care brother.
We've installed Snipers now on two of our old cars and they run great. No more starting issues or smelly rich exhaust waiting for things to warm up. Highly recommend the in tank pump with the built in pressure regulator. Saves installing a return line and way quieter than the frame mount pump.
If your carb setup is smelling rich than its either not tuned properly or wrong size carb selected
Sounds like you have no clue how to tune a carb and probably have zero experience with them.
What in tank pump did you use
Good advice madpapa, thanks.
Come on! I love the smell of gas in the morning it it well it smells like victory!
A few points. Ones that I went through. I put a Holley Sniper on a 69 Charger with a 440. Number one was plumbing in the EFI. Fortunately my tank had a return line nipple which I used. I basically used the old fuel supply line as a return. The 3/8" EFI hose was very thick so I ran a line through the subframe/ transmission cross member and shielded the hose all the way to the throttle body. I also used a spacer ( a small 1/2" spacer as I was running an Edelbrock Torker intake on my 440). I did this because the heat created by the engine is not really good for the sensors. I also found that the height of my throttle body and spacer meant that I had to use Holley's drop base filter base to give me a bit more clearance. And speaking of sensors the Holley supplied coolant temperature sensor was NG. As well I ran two coolant temperature sensors. The one for the EFI which was replaced by an aftermarket CTS ( Bluestreak TX9 ). The stock one for the Chargers dash was also retained. I also needed a Lokar throttle cable and in my case a Lokar transmission kickdown cable. I used a Demon carb throttle cable bracket for TVS cables ( with a few washers). I also looked at the cheesy O2 bung and just had mine welded on ( a bit farther away than recommended but still ok). I just had no confidence in the clamp on affair. Other recommendations are a bag or two of split loom and harness clamps in both sizes for the fuel line, the main harness and to keep everything clean. My 440 has alloy heads as well as headers and prior to this it was pretty rough. It was extremely punchy with the Edelbrock 750 AFB but it smoothed out a lot with EFI. It is undeniably better. The fuel consumption is night and day and the car is just amazing now. I am confident in it. In the end it was a pain in the ass but it was worth it. I also think that the longevity of the engine will be far greater because it no longer washes the oil off the cylinder walls. My car has the Mopar Performance electronic ignition conversion and while the Sniper would prefer it's own distributor, it still works well
This has been the best explanation I have seen so far on switching to a efi system, I have a 85 dodge pick up with a 318 in it that is all stock and I have been thinking about doing a few upgrades to the engine and this helped answer a few of my questions, Thank You.
First, the claim of points only being able to fire to 4000 RPM is absolutely absurd, It was a bad set of points..or perhaps condenser. A good fresh set will go 6000+ all day long.
Second, there was no accounting for the total CFM difference between the carb and the throttle body.
You're comparing 600 CFM worth of flow, to probably over 800 CFM. No bueno.
Third, that carb spacer alone can account for anywhere between 10 and 20 horsepower all on its own.
Definitely not an apples to apples comparison here...ESPECIALLY when you consider the carb received no tuning at all (jetting, etc.) while the EFI gets the benefit of its self learning features.
I normally love the videos on this channel, but this one is WAY below the standards I'd expect from you guys.
Tell em like it is! This is just a cleverly disguised advertisement.
You would be surprised at how many people don't know about CFM rating or Carb spacers and eat all this up like gospel!
Actually 600 cfm is more than a 289 needs up to around 7500 rpm. There's no benefit in slowing air through a bigger carb. The carb might have been tuned less than optimal, but then again, isn't that part of the argument with EFI... you can tune it with parameters and it can self learn vs needing constant physical changes to match conditions.
The butterflies on a 500 cfm carb even are not your limiting factor for power, your distribution, and timing help, but in all reality HP is limited in all but the most extreme cases by head flow, cam, and how well matched the runners on each side of the head are. Getting air in and out of the cylinder is always your limit.
You can plug at a carb all you want, but they always require RESTRICTION to work, where even the most basic of forced fuel injections do not. This will makes them inferior for power.
With timing and fuel control provided by a processing unit, and a good array of sensors, fuel injection will always net you better torque PER FUEL put through the engine, a cleaner burn, more reliability and better fuel economy. Even if you can manage to get a carb "close" to the same at full throttle, it's still inferior in every single condition you put a vehicle through.
The reality is, the only reason to prefer a carb over fuel injection, is the inability, or stubborn denial, of learning how fuel injection works. OEM fuel injections at this point are even highly adjustable with software hacks or minor hardware mods, and vastly improve any engine they're properly set up on. The only thing a carb has going for it, is that some people who know how to tune them, refuse to learn how the EFI systems work, and as such, lie and pretend they're somehow equal...
@@poetsrevengejoshk1700 click on his channel. This guy has more time building hot rods than you or I have had time on this earth...
@@ohlookadragon His channel shows absolutely nothing.
So, I'd like to offer a counterpoint as some have done before. I've spent about 15 months and hundreds of hours trying to get my car swapped over from a carb to an EFI. I had 2 Snipers, one failed and the second one required fairly constant tuning so I switched (with professional advice) to an HP/EFI multiport. I'm now on my second HP//EFI ecu - the first failed with what Holley Tech called an internal dead short... The reason for the change to start with was "driveability" issues with the carb and ignition set up. BUT the engine ran well and had been recently rebuilt. It is a 383 SBC (in a 1970 Camaro) with a fairly long duration (unknown specs) cam but moderate compression. The FOURTH ECU has now been swapped in and the car is operational and in learning/tuning mode. I can detail pages and pages but here is my short list of conclusions for anyone contemplating this swap.
1.) baseline your engine carefully - make sure you have or understand the cam and valve train specs (I had the wrong cam card) and ignition timing specs. Ignition profile, vacuum behavior etc. I spent hours and hours searching for a vacuum leak that didn't exist...
2.) Neither the guys on the boards nor Holley tech have been consistently helpful.. Wait time and quality of response with Holley tech was a 3 of 10 (IMHO). I had one tech who facilitated a fuel locked cylinder while trying to debug a dead ECU!!! Could have been catastrophic.. I also believe Holley has some significant quality control issues - I currently have a 50% failure rate on ECUs.
3.) Do not underestimate the wiring!! The mechanical is easy - getting the wiring integrated and re-loomed in a stock car can be a very lengthy process. Not to mention that the HP/EFI loom is NOT labelled.. So, don't, as I did, just unpin the ECU connectors to tuck them through your firewall so the ECU can be mounted in the passenger compartment.. continuity testing 80 wires is time consuming.
4.) This change is probably NOT for every engine - I'm still questioning if my tuner can get mine completely dialed in - I hope so - it goes to him next.. And this change is not for the faint of heart when it comes the wiring. Also do a thorough estimation for your fuel system changes, fuel routing changes, linkage changes, etc. before you start..
I feel you about the side effect issues of modification. My biggest is not the hardware or the wiring or Ford's poorly written and edited documentation. It is the insurance company that said we will dump you before the paint is dry. Worse answer than the EPA. V/R Chris
All this crap is made in China. I used to work at Motorola and they used 10x on all their solder joints. China uses 12 year old girls to visually see the solder joints because they're young. It sounds ridiculous, but it's absolutely true. I'm sure their operations have moved to Mexico, but still...these companies are selling you crap that shouldn't be sold for the amount of money they're charging for their incompetence!
The best install video I’ve seen. But like all the others it’s just about a number on a dyno, I would love to see a video of before and after on a vehicle driven normally to see the difference with drive ability, consumption etc. Well done though. Great tip about the manifold.
It's therapeutic to watch this guy work. Just calm and collected this guy. Awesome.
Oh yeah for sure he's passionate about what he does. it's so satisfying to watch his videos especially with the speed up a little bit.
Yep, my video, um... would probably have not been family friendly.... lol. I wish I had patience like this!!
I installed that system on my brothers 57 Chevy last spring and oh boy what a treat! He had dual quads on it which are a pain to tune anyway. The car starts wayyy better and runs wayyy better. So nice to get in, start, and drive away. Best thing I ever did on that car!
I've noticed that as well; about 10 years ago I went to a car show and, all of the converted to FI 1955-57 Chevys, Fords and many others, despite no attention paid to lower emissions levels; once the above vehicles were started up, the difference between the above carb'd and FI, concerning burning eyes, etc was like night and day.
Been there done that twice! First Sniper worked great for about 1 year. Suddenly both coolant temp and air temp went out. System didn’t know what to do and ran horrible. After extremely long hold times I got thru to Holley. They did great and overnighted my a replacement system at no charge. Put that one on and cranked and ran for a week then timing function stopped working. The system stopped cranking after that. My 70 Impala has been sitting over a year in the same spot because life happens. Planning on going back to carb and HEI ignition so can at least enjoy my car again.
Common story with efi
Exactly!! Same experience...
Word to the Wise...
Don't get rid of the Carb!
it's like an apple phone, vcr, CD player, etc. Good for a year or so then needs an upgrade or replacement. Good ol holley will be rebuildable for 100 years or more.
@@BBBILLY86 Rite! , Put the exhaust gas( mixture gauge) sensor where the O2 was ... Now You can actually read on the gauge your mix ratio... Even on my traditional $#1+ I run one... Hidden of course....
Yep and that’s the beauty of a carb. No bullshit
I just installed a Sniper with the Dual Sync distributor on my buddies truck. I finished it this morning. He has a pretty hot 454 and it has been very finicky for 15 years with the carburetor. It now fires up with no problems and he swears it's the best it's ever run. Of course we didn't have the luxury of a dyno to test it back to back but I can tell you it idles way better and it is much smoother on acceleration. Now I have to have one for my 70 Challenger R/T with a 440!
Ive spent my entire adult life driving, racing, and tuning EFI systems and carbeurators, mostly Holley classic double pumpers, and in the last 10 or so years, holley ultra HPs, with an Innovate dual wideband, which has been installed in so, so, so many vehicles. With sufficient testing and tuning time, and thorough "pen and paper" data logging, i have personally experienced dozens of vehicles that had their "best ever" overall performance and driveability/usability, with Ultra HP 650 & 750 cfms. By simply sticking out the time and effort to get the emulsion and bleed adjustments right, using brass blanks and drilling with a pin vise, or out-of-the-kit holley bleeds (master kit), i have never failed to meet or exceed the original cruise and daily driving fuel evonomy of many OEM EFI systems (most frequently GM LS, Ford SD & MAF batxh/seq. EFI OBD 1 & 2 systems, on stock to heavily modified engines, with stock, mail order, and dyno tunes. Most notably, a "Correctly" set pair of accelerator pumps - (shaving/shaping pump cams, custom drilling pump nozzles, shimming/stiffening pump actuator springs, even removing the springs entirely on high rpm stick cars) have delivered the absolute HARDEST "hitting" engines me and my customers have ever experienced. Im talking about wrinkling up sidewalls on mild slicks in 2nd and 3rd with just WOT hits from zero throttle at a roll. It takes time, passion, dedication, and the full setup of adjustment gear, but it is truly a skill you will be valued and respected for.
You can tune a carburetor only for one optimal air pressure, temperature, and elevation (aka: Density Altitude) and get excellent results under those circumstances. I live in Colorado where the elevation in Denver is 5000 ft and I-70 Loveland Pass is 12,000 ft, temperatures go from -20 F to 100+ F. That yields Density Altitudes from 2000 ft-15,000 ft. A carburetor has to be re-tuned for all these conditions, which is labor intensive. The modern electronic fuel injection tunes itself automatically for these conditions. The carburetor works well in laboratory conditions. The fuel injection works in real-world conditions. The fuel injection is far superior.
Sounds like you know your stuff. Do you have a shop ?
I agree taking the time to tune a carb will give great results
I don't know you, and so can't comment on that other than to say that if you'd mentioned mechanical advance weights, springs, cams, and limits with tailoring different vacuum canisters to get the best advance characteristics, it would sound more credible, especially the last for the economy.
Way back in the day I didn't have much, if any, to do with Holleys - they were several weeks' wages for a 'prentice back then, but I did get to know my way around the QJ pretty well - mostly repairing other peoples'mucking up, but between that and modified mechanical advance curves I did manage to get better driveability and economy in most cases - remember, this was back in the early "smog" days, so that bar was set kinda low. 😉
Nowadays I joke about not trusting I can't see working but, truth be told, EFI is so much easier to work with and, with equal airflow, I'd expect carb's and clockwork to match it at some points, after a lot of work, but overall to be inferior. Throw in significant elevation and temperature variations, as some have said, and it's a no-brainer.
Agree...more guys have spent thousands hoping thier hot rod will behave like thier 2 yrs old OEM car.
They wont...and wont be as trobule free/long lasting, either .Many sell it off and put a carb back on
They are too easy to tune. Unless somoene lived in sb zero conditions cant see why one woud do this
Biggest "way better" comments are from those that spent money or had such a horrible tune up before they never experienced what a good running vehicle is .
I upgraded my '73 Charger with the Sniper EFI system. Is it worth the trouble? YOU BET!! It is by far the absolute best upgrade you can do to an old driver! The car will have all the benefit of a modern EFI system with the heart and sole of a well tuned carburetor. I recommend going the full 9 yards with the Sniper HyperSpark distributor, ignition box, and coil along with a Sniper EFI fuel pump with a Hydramat for best results.
A note about performance: A carburetor can be finely tuned to make more power than EFI for a specific air pressure and temperature. However, as soon as anything changes, you're losing power and need to adjust. An EFI system can be finely turned any environment to provide 98% or better performance of an carburetor 100% of the time.
I agree. I used a similar set up to yours in my Nova. Also great points on tuning.
Ok Holly sales representative....
@@1BigDaDo Ok Carburetors lovers
@@1BigDaDo LOL! I wish Holley would sponsor me based on how much I preach for them. Their Sniper system is really as good as I makes it sound! Go the whole 9 yards, do a returned fuel system, and you won't go wrong!
Now Hagerty. Those Delta Alpha Bravos can Foxtrot Oscar!! They raise my rates by 25% for no damn good reason. Going to switch companies... again.
What engine? Read my comment above. My '69 Charger was not real easy to modify but it was definitely worth it....
I went SEFI 25 yrs ago.
Holley Sniper is great also.
I've done an MSD and have no complaints there.
I’m an old school carb guy.... however I have gone to the dark side, ls turbo injection and Holley efi , I’m having a lot of fun with it I must admit.
Hey buddy are you Aussie ?? I am from Adelaide, SA so I am doing a EFi swap in my 79 F1OO so you’ve been using this Holley efi ?? I am in between Fi-Tech and Holley please let me know if this Holley is really good thank you
@@chocodiledundee1 yes it really is that good if you want more for the money then term x or term x max is the way to go however it depends on what your goals for the f100 are, performance maybe power adder or you just want all the tune ability Holley offers then terminator x plug n play is really good.
Go on Holley website go to tech resources then fuel injection then terminator x instructions and or watch some Holley videos here.
Devin Vanderhoof is another good one.
Or Matt Happel of sloppy mechanics or Joe Simpson on you tube all do a range of how to stuff with terminator x.
Price wise Holley is giving you a hell of a lot for the money, all the other big ecu brands are easily twice the price for the same or similar.
EFI makes using artificial horsepower adders easier but nothing beats a well tuned carb on a naturally aspirated motor.
As a fifty plus year mechanic, engine builder, it is one of the most clear-cut, simple demonstrations of the benefits. I could tell from the sound of the engine from startup, to running through in the carb and efi, and the simple tone was a clear indicator. Very nicely done, and a very nicely built street engine as well. Thanks.
I have a 1979 dodge magnum which efi should I buy?
@@leebailey1220 I think David would have a far more up to date reply, it's been some years since I messed with EFI myself, and it's a fast field. When they work, they can be dead on, all the time, but they are liable to electrical noise, bad grounds and corrosion, which can scramble their brains. I've gone away from the electronics for reliability and maintenance, but it's a matter of health, changed directions. Enjoy the power!
I can just see exhaust leaks in the future with the sensor adapter. Just weld the bung in and make it permanent. I do like that converting your 60’s V-8 to modern fuel injection is now so relatively simple. Thank you Holley!
I would completely agree, but it's a nice bit for doing testing on a dyno and the like. I need to find something for an old Harley.
But u gain 0 fuel milage. Unless you have a horrific tuned carb there is no magic fuel milage gains.
@@johnsnow1355 wrong. gonna see maybe 5-15% better mpgs.
@@johnsnow1355
What world are you secretly living in? If you have a carb. Toss a real wideband on it and get a video of you going for a drive from cold start to fully warmed up, do cruising, wot pulls, decent coast downs.
Quickly it will be revealed how horrible that carb is for fuel economy compared to the same setup on e85.
@@johnsnow1355if that were the case then carbs would have return lines like EFI. Carbs use all the fuel thats delivered, and EFI returns the unused fuel. You will see about 10% more economy and power as well as way easier starting. Not to mention having a near perfect air fuel ratio constantly will result in way less carbon build up...
Glad someone can get this thing to work. Been messing with mine for about 6 months with no luck. Afr is all wacked
I like carbs, I can set them up half decent. Problem is one day you set it up and get it running perfect then a few months later in the fall it’s off a little and you’re constantly tweaking it if you’re like me.
Sniper efi on a 80 Trans am with a small block installation customer said it had never ran as well or pulled as hard in the 25 years he has owned it, good system highly recommend them.
Nice to see a small cube engine on the dyno for a change. Nice 👍🍻
I installed a Holley Sniper with Complete hyper Spark system and nothing but issues, one after the other. Finally after 6 months , got it running perfect and the ECU failed to trigger ignition Spark Signal to hyper Spark. I just bought a New Holley Carburetor, Holley Fuel Pump, Sending Unit for Gas tank and Blueprint Distributor. The Sniper was sent to Holley for Repair and when I get it back I am selling it as fast as I can. When Sniper works, its great, but when it doesn't work, trying to figure it out is a F'ing nightmare. Just one visit to Holleys Sniper Forums will give you an idea of just how many people have problems with Sniper. everything from RF Interference to Weak Secondary Springs that won't close the blades all the way . I ran my car for 45 years With HEI, Carb, and Mechanical Fuel pump and when it rarely did mess up, I could fix it. I didn't have to wait 2 Months to ship it to Holley in Kentucky and wait for it to come back in car show season. I fell for all the Hype.
I'm currently running a 465 cfm racing beat modified Holley (1848-1) on my large streetport 74-78 4 port 13B with S5 NA rotors and absolutely love it, and is a very reliable setup, but I have been seeing a lot of good results with the sniper holleys on rotaries and think I might hop on the band wagon too as I think it should help me get the most out of this engine
I remember this discussion when EFI came out. If its as reliable as EFI turn out to be it'll blow my hair back but I have a hard time with new things. You really made it simple to consider.
Only EFI Id totally trust is OEM with factory components
No way will aftermarket be anywhere as good.
I remember owning a 1989 Honda Accord with a 2BBL Keihin connected to a number of altitude sensitive vacuum valves and temperature sensitive vacuum bleed valves, along with solenoids and a rudimentary ECU to tie the mess together. It was a latch ditch effort to get good emissions out of a carbureted vehicle before finally switching to EFI
How did it run?
This was an excellent video for me. I'm getting ready to put a Holley EFI on my 84 Corvette replacing the existing cross fire fuel injection system which is the laughingstock of Corvette folks. Thank you for the excellent presentation.
You're really not improving anything over the crossfire unit. Have a friend help you mod your crossfire intake to work with a pair of GM 2 barrel TBI units & keep the OEM operating system.
Great video! Simple, precise and great info. Thanks Man!
Don't tell us you had a problem ("tach sweep") and fixed it. Please share HOW you fixed it.
That's what I said too. How???
Are you talking about where the injectors flood?
At 12:48 is where he had the issue
Either put the msd on a seperate switch if you have a older 6al, newer ones have the sweep turned off or upgrade your 6al or go to the holley hyperspark system
Yeah the 6A boxes have a tach sweep setting to verify the tachometer function of a gauge. You tie into the wire on the sniper for rpm signal, so the unit thinks you’re going wfo as soon as you crank and it washes the intake with fuel.
EFI had my curiosity but now it has my attention.
It should have 20 years ago
Better now than never.
@@stack3r this kit wasn't available then
Holman Moody! Right on!!!!
We figured out how to get a chevy points ignition to turn 6,500+= rpm on our LMS back in the day when we could only use points and condenser ignition. Little trick dad learned back in the 60s but made it better in the 80s.
A few solid points. The installation into an " old school" carbureted car is going to be somewhat involved. Your fuel tank at least needs a return line provision. If your tank is old and in need of replacement you could use an in tank pump/ tank combination. My tank was new and I just used one of the three vapor line provisions ( though I was told not to), I also just went with the simple kit which maybe I shouldn't have done. This meant I had to supply the fuel pump ( Walbro GSL295) and the pre and post filter. The earlier kits had a fuel pump block off plate but the one I had didn't have one. I am not a fan of mechanical fuel pumps so I had one. I used the original fuel line as a return line and had to get a few feet of EFI rated fuel line and the clamps as well as the fittings for the fuel pump. Due to the size of the fuel line, I had to cut through the transmission cross member and used an old piece of garcon hose as a sleeve to prevent the fuel line from getting chafed. I also used a bit of the residual EFI hose as the initial part of the return line as the fuel pressure will still be fairly significant off the throttle body. Wiring it in required patience and understanding. That was somewhat involved but nothing really ominous. The throttle linkage was another story. I had to go with Lokar cables for the throttle cable and the transmission kickdown. I used a cheap TVS cable adapter for a Demon carb with a few washers as my cable bracket. It would be nice if this was part of the instructions. I also had an old single plane intake. Given that the engine has headers, a set of aluminum heads and an aftermarket intake manifold the heat transfer to the throttle body would likely be significant. That's why like this article I went with a phenolic carb spacer ( use the open centre one). I also took the time and had a proper O2 sensor bung welded in. I did not trust the cheesy bracket. Do it once and do it right. Another issue has been the sensors Holley provides. They are cheap junk. Look up a Blue Steak/ Standard TX9 coolant temperature sensor. Also get a proper wideband O2 sensor. It's caused some consternation but the substitution of these parts has ironed out some bugs. A caveat is that like most aftermarket hot rod parts quite a number of them are designed to use GM related parts. Being as mine was a old Mopar it has taken time to iron out the bugs ( some of which will need more refinement). So. Was it worth it? It sure was expensive and time consuming. It required a good deal of troubleshooting not to mention a plethora of parts that Holley neglected to tell me that turned out to be required. The positives though are pretty significant. Number one is that the EFI ( properly set up) won't " over fuel " the engine. The reduced engine wear alone is worth it. Then the part throttle efficiency and response. Initially my engine was like a light switch. Either on or off. That made it a bit of a handful to deal with. Now it's smooth power and undoubtedly there a lot more mid range power. It's also a whole lot better in corners and daily driving. So I believe that it is worth it.
Thems some nice bananas. I really want to go with this setup on my Caprice when the time comes.
I still like the Holley I have,I don't play with the choke and it fires off every time and I feel is more reliable due to the fact there are no sensors or connectors to suddenly fail.Not to mention all the wiring to deal with,I can see the FI for a daily but to me part of the driving experience in an old vehicle is the less than perfect and "basic" systems it has .
If I want great mileage and a well mannered vehicle I would drive a Prius.
Wow, you summed that up perfectly. I feel the same except I have a edelbrock
yeah all those cab sensors and connectors are stupid arent they?
Yes sir. I have a 540 big block with a 770 Holley carburetor I’m not for EFI at all on my BBC. EXCELLENT VIDEO. THANKS.
Looks like everyone else is in here. So I'll jump in with my good ol Rochester quadrajet👍 Once you get it set up good its great👌
@@motov8-garage832 I agree! The moan they make at full throttle is badass too! My dad could tune the hell outta one.
The main advantages of replacing a carburetor with a bolt-on EFI unit like this is instant cold starting, much improved cold idle quality and cold performance, plus it eliminates the need to constantly fiddle with the carb to compensate for temperature changes (swapping jets and resetting the choke). EFI shold also elimiante that annoying bog or hesitation when you open the throttle on a cold engine. I think EFI is well worth the cost if you drive our vehicle a lot or drive during cold weather. As for the overall power gain, the EFI throttle body has bigger bores so it flows more CFM at higher RPMs. The only way you are going to realize significant power gains with EFi is to go with a Multiport system that has one injector per cylinder. A Multiport system distributes fuel more evenly so the end cylinders don't run lean while the middle cylinders run rich. They all get the same air/fuel mix. The drawback with aftermarket Multiport systems is they cost a lot more than simple bolt-on throttle body EFI systems, and most require laptop tuning on a dyno to really dial them in.
Just go with an LS MOTOR 🤔
Been using Holley carbs for over 40 years! With the gaskets available now the leaking problems are history. You can tune them to do just about anything you want, but you can't make them do everything on one tune! Fuel injection is amazing, but I ain't paying for it!! Let's face it, it's probably going on a Saturday afternoon ride for kicks and giggles! Let ur wallets be ur guide!! Great video!
Great content! You should put 3 of the 2 barrels on the Hemi you did awhile back 😎😁😎😁
Excellent walkthrough, thank you
Best upgrade I did on my classic
The windsor ford is a work of art and simple pushrod engineering. I have been spoiled for the past 30 + years of velvet smooth torque starting with my 68 cougar and now 88 T bird and 88 town car efi windsor 5.0 's.
More stuff like this, please!!!
On a classic car I will always prefer a carburettor, as it's part of the charm. But very clear comparison with unsurprising result😊. All the best. Looking forward to seeing your next video.
Thanks for the video. We are planning on this for a K5 Blazer build.
I've ridden carburetor motorcycles and EFI models. The EFI models have let me squeeze 52 MPG on occasion out of a machine only rated for 42 MPG fully loaded. North of the Canadian border that extra range is a big deal. Super reliable system, and I've really grown to like the EFI better over the last 50K plus miles.
I followed a guy on a carbed Harley go across the Continental Divide. He had to ride the choak knob to keep the bike running.
Love the shirt "give grease a chance"😂
Your editor deserves a medal.
This is very helpful for when I install my unit! Thanks for the great vid!
Great video and very well presented as usual
I’m guessing the big improvement comes when you also use an electronic ignition & start tying the ignition timing to the EFI computer.
More useful if the timing falls out of where it should be. Either from dynamic running or loss of efficiency etc. engines can run extremely poorly now lol
I am glad to see Holley still make these units. I remember when the first TBI units were introduced. Don't get me wrong, I love 4 barrel carburetors, but the TBI unit made massive improvements to fuel to air and power.
its just an electronic carburetor.
No was was getting you wrong
"Massive improvements"? Hahahaha....
Very cool and informative video, I ve always been a fan of retrofit EFI units on to old engines and car/truck builds since the 90s. I think more so the inherent advantages of the EFI set ups are better precision , compensation and economy ! Thanks for doing this
Then it craps out after a week, floods your engine for no reason, sensors stop working, on and on. Holley EFI sucks.
Excellent!!! Just what I needed to know! Thanks!
I've documented a couple of these sniper installs. One of the best mods ever! More power, better gas mileage, way better drive-ability.
I am guessing if you use the right dissy you can have spark control also, it would be nice if it had knock detection capability to.
And less reliability lol
@@cnebuda7422 no
Picax8398 everyone who I’ve seen install those tbi kits ends up on the side of the road
@@cnebuda7422 It's very possible that everyone you know is an idiot..
Hard to believe this expensive engine is running the sorriest oil filter currently made! (at one time Fram was the leader but lapsed when it got bought out by hedge fund)
Have used Wix for 40 years.
Fram is garbage..I use Wix, NAPA gold(wix rebranded) or K&N. 91 Silverado..over 300,000. Quality parts=longer life. I would like to replace the tbi junk on my truck and the garbage heads(swirl port junk) on my 5.7
I have literally seen RUST inside a SEALED fram filter. Napa wix are great stay away from fram
grame harte also bought out champion labs at the same time and combined the companies and took them in bankrupt court and the champion name has changed names several times in the last couple of years i thank now it is called fram filtration in albion ill
MANN Filters all day
Thank you for this video. Very informative. And easily explained.
Awesome content. You made this look pretty easy.
For all out power? No
For drivability? Yes
At WOT the engine doesn't care how it gets its air/fuel
This test has been done over and over. In tact most say the carb will deliver more power
Your carb wasn't set up right or wrong size.
Couldn't have said it better myself!
@@blairo15 Sniper uses the cheapest sensors Holley can buy. So.
TPS sensor goes bad = No drive.
Water Temperature sensor goes bad = No drive.
MAP sensor goes bad = No drive.
O2 sensor goes bad = No drive.
IAT sensor goes bad = Still can drive.
Also:
Placing ECU next to the distributor is the worst engineering Iv'e seen.
Fuel tank: Look at any NEW car's fuel tank ( like BMW's ). They divide the tank into 2 sumps, with 2 fuel pumps. No modified old school fuel tank is going to give you the reliability of a 2020 cars fuel tank with it's 2 sumps, and 2 fuel pumps.
Ignition: Coil Near Plug will always win. Caps and rotors wear out. This should be mandatory on ALL after market EFI systems.
Then why do the fastest heads up drag race drivers in the world who have a choice of using EFI or Carb use EFI?
@@ERidParasoth Because they double duty there cars, for Uber driving.
You should ask them why.
@@brightstarlastname2812 I already know why, EFI outperforms carbs on a racetrack. The only people that race dynos is Engine Masters.
Not sure exactly how I got here or why I continued to watch ,in the end i was entertained and learned something.
Not only did you learn once, you also learned twice
@@madmax2069 Fair enough LMAO
Worth EVERY PENNY!!!! I will never go back to a carburetor ever again!!! My 383 stroker was a PIG!!! Sniper made it into a monster!!! Thank you HOLLEY!!!!
I just put a Holley Sniper on an 88 Jeep Wrangler. I love it so far. Carburetors need to much adjusting for off-roading. Taking it out next weekend. On road performance is improved we shall see what happens on the rocks.
Thanks for making this video. I am putting the two-barrel system on my Classic Mini Cooper A-Series Supercharged project. This was really instructional and great info. I can't wait to get this retrofitted to my little British engine. :-)
COLE!
@@RakTheGoose Hello this is Cole speaking. :-)
Sorry, totally unsuitable. These units are for at least big 6s or standard v8s. Not maybe a 1275 4.
Quite possible someone is making a suitable unit.
LDN Wholesale thanks for the input but the two barrel unit works perfectly on a forced induction modified a-series. Puts around 130-150hp to the wheels and has been tested running (very well) with a modified supercharger to suite the engine. These two barrel units aren’t much different in size when compared to a Weber DCOE carb setup which is what makes them so great for this very specific niche application. 🙂
I am still running
Powerjection iii will timing control on 70 cougar XR7 428 CJ
Sence 2010 still working great
Love the EFI
Great video!! I’m about to go this route. With the sniper.
Sears would sell Penskie high performance ignition parts in the 70s and the points cap and rotor with the hp coil made no difference on the stock slant six. But it would rev well over 5,000 rpm even before the tune-up.
OK, I found two areas of concern. One is, it's all good unless you have an aftermarket ignition system where the tack sweeps up at key on (like mine does). You figured out that hurdle but didn't say how. Two, you didn't have AFR figures for the carb so we have no idea how if the jetting was set up well as the comparison carb. Other than that, thanks.
I agree, if the Holley Sniper FI system is able to dial in an engine's peak performance, then why did you guys NOT tune-up the carburetor any further with possibly a larger carb and/or further jetting sizes??? I DO like the Sniper system, but I think this was NOT a completely or equally fair comparison.
I didn't even know they made that. Pretty cool!
as a user of the holly sniper system.. it’s a game changer and worth every penny
Suggestion: if your o2 sensor dosn't already come with it, put a little anti-seize on the threads while being careful not get any on anything but the threads. Next time you take the sensor out you'll thank me.
Thank u
So....could I program this EFI to run ‘way too rich and lumpy with lots of smell at idle-so it sounds and smells like nostalgia?
02 sensors make a perfect mixture all the time.
That's the point.
Good video. Your conclusions were spot on and you covered it all.
He missed some significant items but it is a good sales pitch.
My hat's off to all of you carb guys, I still don't consider myself a carb guy even though I've learned a lot since going to the first generation Holly fuel injection setup, after switching over I was in the same freaking boat as I was with carburetors with my first EFI. I'm going to date myself here but I was about to throw in the towel went to my favorite Super Shops location very knowledgeable guy at the counters flipped open his book and said you know you need one of these the items he was referencing happened to be led air fuel meters he went on to tell me that if I wanted the most accurate setup to go ahead and get Chrysler four wire O2 sensors so that the sensors would give a more accurate reading at cold startup. So I ended up with a setup that no carb guy in the world can compete with, what that means is simply rolling down the road I can change my air fuel ratio and my timing on the fly as I'm driving down the road now if you have a carb setup that allows you to do that I would love to hear about it.
I'm 73 years old and have been hot rodding everything since my coaster wagon....really enjoy your videos and the common sense and good explanations. You remind me of all the guys I grew up with...anyway, I was surprised a bit how well the Sniper learned. Would it function better with a locked-out distributor and let the computer take its timing off crank position? Just wondering. Thanks, Tom P.S. Is there a reason for the tri-Y headers? More torque?
For me, the single most important advantage to Fuel Injection is that you no longer have a carburetor pouring raw fuel into the high vacuum created by releasing the throttle during deceleration! In the Carburetor Age, when engines neared 100K Miles, you could tell by the blue vapor trail out of the exhaust pipes and piles of carbon caked on piston, rings, valves, head, and spark plug! More modern carburetors tried to compensate for throttle closing by damping the closure and by actively restricting fuel jetting during those high vacuum deceleration events, but in the end they were never reliable enough or performed well enough to greatly increase engine life.
There are also two more incredible advantages to Injection. They are that you will never have a sticking float valve! "But that's only one advantage", you say. Well, not only will you never have a float valve stick closed and need to beat on your carburetor, you will also never have one stick open and burn your car down!
There are a lot less boat fires at the launch ramp since EFI...
A lot of those old timer guys would blow their minds if they had a wideband in their stinky old carb cars. 14:1 idle stoich would probably make them weep since most of them tune to idle @ like 7-8:1 for some reason.
im an old car noobie, and even im looking at EFI to get my L78 off the motor mount. I just want ideal flow/fuel mixture at all times for an engine with solid lifters, w.o having to worry about old fuel/exhaust causing cycling issues. Something that will work with the stock/shared plenum SS manifold as well as a long runner tube/single plenum with split intake/throttle if NEED be or if i really want to have ideal operation. For low flow/low rpm/fuel ap, and fully open plenum/intake high power, etc STREETABILITY aspects. The idea of being able to customize my head a lil or change my fuel/injector operation for this street use sounds fun. Thinking i could be able to tune or set a tune for "cruising" and all out/track/drag strip. fun. As a noobie...has me motivated to get that engine a roller. The engine is a family/pass down. So i really want to keep the lifters/cam stock/solid as it was factory intended to be used/driven at 11:1..vs the 10:1 ppl swap to with a roller cam /402 build. The engine had pushed 15:1 in their nascar HIPO build. So i just want something "close" to that level of FEEL/noise under operation when being pushed that still offers ideal carb/fuel operation down low or a way of setting ideal idles etc. Knowing im not doing damage to my pistons/head during deceleration helps me think i can make that engine/car more of a streetable/FUN build vs a "PURE" weekend cruiser...or implementing a mild cam. Seeing that 780cfm from factory as a limting factor EFI has me Motivated to put a long runner/high rise manifold on the 396 with some LTH into a C3 or a Chevy II roller. Prior the headache of tube/length/geometry etc and the proper CFM carb/etc system had me "Scared" to get the L78 running again....but EFI IMO helps me think its possible.
Well done. Honest and Common Sense useful info. The quality of the drivability all the way across the board is the difference. That's what the $ went to.
We have a similar application in our Ford 351W Engine. Most important advantage is tu adjust the injection fuel and the ignition point. Also easier to hold a good idle.
But where's the entertaining whoosh of flame that's supposed to come out of the top of the engine? I thought that was a sign of maximum power!
Lol it is !
It is. Until it gets out of control and you'll be needing a "little" more than a EFI system.
i caught my hood on fire quite a bit when I was a kid ... 63 olds 394 4 barrel ... fun fun !!
Have you been spying on my cars?
Hooray for not reading the "no parking" sign.
Great informative video. Learned a lot.. but treat your high performance engine to a better oil filter than a FRAM. Cut one open and see for yourself.
I just switched over to this exact same one on my SS 86 MC 🔥🔥🔥
did you use the quadrajet version or the normal version throttle body, thinking of putting this on my Pontiac that has a quadrajet
Was there a significant improvement?
Power is only part of the story, the huge benefits of injection is cold starting, smoothness, part throttle response, out of corner response. The more parameters you can tune will make all these areas better and better.
Awesome outstanding job have a great time thanks
This is something I've been wanting to do to my '86 F250. It has a 460/c6 with 33s and gets 7.3MPG highway at 70mph. No OD hurts, but I'm sure the carb is leaving a lot of efficiency on the table as well. I don't daily drive the truck(for 7.3MPG reasons), so I'm having a hard time justifying spending $2K on this swap. Still, this seems like something the truck would benefit greatly from.
@marcum exe seriously 🤔
If you're not able to tune a carb, this will help you. However, how many miles will it take and how many fuel tanks will it take on the old setup is up to you to mathematically think about. If you only get a 3 more miles to the gallon then you'll be wasting your time for years...depending on how much you drive it.
I prefer carburetors on my classic Mopars . Aftermarket stuff like this is fine for something that is seldom driven , or not driven for long distances . But you have to take into account that parts for this stuff are not available over the counter at the local parts stores . If you happen to be 100 miles away from home and something fails in that fuel injection setup you better have a good pair of nikes in the trunk .
Another enjoyable vid - thank you. In my experience, dumping that Fram oil filter was good for a 5 hp gain.
Wait, they took off an undersized, poorly tuned carb running an air filter and put on a bigger / higher cfm throttle body injection system running no filtration and made 15 or so hp more? Hmmm...
In some fairness to that system, it would probably keep improving through a little more useage. Though, that comparison wasn't all that fairly done.
luckeycat I agree, the more you drive the better it will get. Also people need to understand it isn’t just about the horsepower. Better drivability, throttle response, and adjusting to weather conditions is where this system will shine.
Hi
Great job !!!
I would like to know if you Redid this test run and added a 1" spacer or the size spacer to the Holley carburetor What will the results be?
Thanks you
Yes that is sad considering the sniper flows 950 cfm if i am not mistaken
There is zero chance that holley carb was “undersized.” It definitely wasn’t tuned right. That 289 only needs like 450 cfm. Don’t believe me then find a carb calculator. Everyone wants to slap a 750 DP on (straight out of the box) then complain about carbs being junk....
Would have been interesting to see the spacer used with the carburetor before the swap. Plenum volume as well as a partially open duel plane intake might have increased peak power with the carburetor. Good video! Thanks!
67 Mustang, 67 SS Camaro, 1970 SS El Camino, 1984 Silverado, 1987 Silverado, 1988 Mercury Sable, 1991 Silverado, 1995 3/4 ton Suburban, 2002 F 150, 2008 F 350, 2018 Tacoma, 2019 Tacoma........and my ultimate favorite car I've ever owned? A 1979 CJ-7 with a straight six and a factory Turbo 400. For me old school simple has always been the most fun to own and work on.
The carb needed more tuning. Thats said, I'm converting to this system because of drivability. No heat soak issues after stopping for 15 minutes. No stink in the garage after parking it for a half hour with the door shut. (no float bowls to vent) No retuning for winter/summer...etc. I took the plunge after having three of our customers vehicles in the shop and heard their feedback and drove them. We do not do custom work, mostly restoration but a few of our customers will mod their original cars for drivability. They all were very pleased with this system. One caveat....they all had the Holley Sniper system....after trying the other systems....just an fyi.
I would have liked to see this in a more "apples too apples" comparison, say with at 3310 Holley instead of the base model 1850 650. The Sniper is fated a 900CFM of flow.
My brother used to "SMOKE" aftermarket recommended setups with a junkyard 351W and a variable venturi. V/R Chris
Now please do it again with timing control and see how much power it makes
Do you expect to see massive gains with timing control. Im curious i have dynoed my car twice but without timing control. I am interested in timing control but leary about opening up a seperate can of worms
@@cfmechanic It will definitely broaden up your power band. With mechanical or vacuum timing advance, you can only really set two points where your timing is dead-nuts-on, and everywhere else is just a linear or parabolic graph between those two points. The further away from optimal, the less power, efficiency, and response you'll get. A good electronic system should be nearly perfect at all times and all driving conditions.
Depending on how well your parts all run together now, you can see anywhere from 0 to ~5% improvements at your worst ranges.
Timing control made a vast difference with my sniper
Dyno runs are usually from 3500 rpm and up you should have all your timing in by then anyway
@@dallaswiens126 i like your Answer best spoken like a wise man
Just ordered my sniper kit for my monte carlo!
For folks on a budget an electronic distributor isn't mandatory . Higher tension points are available to avoid point float so higher RPM's can be acheived.Secondly across the board the full consumption is considerably much better.A great Video for DYI car folk.
have been running efi on my 440 for two years now without problems. if you install it as holley instructions it's superior to the carburetor.
What's the mpg?
It won't be that much of an improvement over a well tuned carb. No matter what it takes the same fuel air ratio to run. Just most carbs that are thrown on and not tuned will run rich and suck gas. My carbed 1976 460 f250 got very similar mpg as my friends 1992 f250 with a efi 460 he maybe got 5 mpg better....maybe . His cold starts were better vs my choke. It would make you cry from the rich fumes burning your eyes. I'm going efi not for mpg, just for better starts and the self tuning. My carb was just a bolted on edlebroc no dyno. The self tuning you don't need a dyno for them to run the best. A carb is a dying art to tune and dyno fees add up fast
Long story short what little mpg you get will take you min 10 years of daily driving for it to pay for its self in gas money.
I had one on my 85 k10. It was pretty cool, but I want to let anybody know that you can’t just crank it and go. You have to let the engine get to operating temp and it will then go from open loop to closed loop so it can learn and tune thing while it’s driving for optimal drivability. After you go through the break in period and get it all set up of course. So it’s no different then a carb in that aspect. And the little touch screen display is cheap AF. And if the IAC motor goes bad then your screwed. And don’t leave your key in the forward position unless your gonna start your vehicle because the O2 sensor has a heater to burn of any dew, if you leave it forward it will burn up, and once your O2 sensor burn the whole thing is junk. And you have to buy your O2 sensor from holley, it’s the only one that works. Other than that it’s pretty cool.
Sounds like some conspiracy b.s. to get you to only buy from Holley
What an excellent vid! Thank you!
I'm thinking about putting one of these on my toyota 22re. I'm actually thinking about scrapping the stock efi set up for the 2300. Mainly so I can turbo it easily, but also because I could carry the weber from my old set up in my tool box and be able to swap everything out if I run into trouble with the efi setup out in the mountains.
I would be curious to see how well this would work with a turbo