ROCKETS, MISSILES, ARROWS and BOWHUNTING?? (Minds BLOWN 🤯)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2021
- We talk with @RanchFairy and the "Rocketman" Darrel Barnette about arrow momentum and kinetic energy.
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20:35 What Troy's talking about is fluid dynamics and parasitic drag. Parasitic drag is composed of form drag, interference drag, and skin friction drag. Lighter weight arrows lose velocity quicker than slower velocity arrows because they encounter more drag per unit time than the slower arrow.
This is gold for us engineers who love bow hunting. Great content!
I'm feeling nostalgic for high school physics class suddenly.
Never thought I'd say that
Love this! Georgia Tech aerospace engineering grad and former Bell Helicopter engineer here. Spot on Darrel. Can you and Troy do a segment on arrow tuning in the context of aeroelasticity? There's a lot of physics that go into finding that perfect combo of head weight and arrow spine stiffness :)
I can’t wait to see how this impacts the bow hunting world when presented at the ATA.
An excellent presentation. Break it down into hunting terms and what would have put me to sleep in high school and college kept my interest the whole way through. Thank you for an extremely enlightening video.
Jake's like, "I don't know, I just shoot stuff..."
I know I was just here for the hog killing🤯🌭
“I don’t think I’ll be reading that!” Busted me up. Great video guys. I’m sure I’ll end up needing to watch it several times to have any chance of picking it all up. Keep up the great work and thanks from a fellow public land hunter.
This is so awesome! As a physics/engineering student and new bow hunter, I really appreciate Barnette's breakdown perspective. Another great video!
Fantastic explanation. Some of the stuff you said I always had in the back of my mind. Like knowing the speed and the momentum at the target instead of right out of the bow or muzzle of a firearm.
I run and cycle and when I watch people cross the line and see them slow down before the finish line is one of my pet peeves. For myself the actual finish is about 20 feet past the official race finish line. Same way with hunting people think the finish line is when the broadhead meets the animal, but in actuality it is on the other side of the animal in the dirt somewhere. I try to aim where I want the arrow to exit.
Looking forward to some more great content.
Thanks a bunch for sharing this information guys. I’m in the process of moving to a heavier broad head and Sirius arrows. I hit a buck in the shoulder last October and never recovered him and my arrow broke off with very little penetration. I had the same buck on my camera 2 weeks later walking on video without limping. Troy’s plan B speech makes perfect sense. Awesome info boys!
The amount of knowledge @Ranch Fairy and you guys have is unbelievable. All I used to think about when making my setup was, how can I get the biggest blood trail possible. And after consistently not getting pass throughs and lack of success I decided I needed to change something. Watching your videos has changed the way I think about hunting and setting up my arrows to kill the animal not to just get a blood trail. Keep the endless knowledge coming, you guys are awesome!
Great job guys! Can't wait for the next lesson to begin and thanks sharing such valuable information with all of us. Keep up the good work and thanks Troy for leading the way.
I absolutely loved this discussion, thank you all. My geek reservoir in at full. Much appreciated
This is a fascinating discussion. I'm SO glad you guys are talking about this and doing this research. We NEED to know this stuff!
Love all the videos you guys have literally taught me so much stuff that I have felt the need to spread the info making friends and family watch the videos just to understand what in the world I’m talking about. I like the two knob reference
My man using a coffee cup as a spitter. Respect.
Been there before!
I used to shoot light arrows (about 439gr) and flimsy 100 gr broadheads. On a January hunt, I shot a coues deer quartered to me at about 18 yards and watched him run off with the back half of my arrow sticking out of his shoulder. My buddy found his remains that August, but by that time, I was shooting a 577gr arrow with 175gr machined, sharp, broadheads. In between that time, I got to thinking and experimenting a LOT. I only ever did basic university physics, but I still knew enough to know that the endless articles I read written by "experts" and the piles if forum posts had about zero useful knowledge because nobody understood the concepts they were writing about. I found Ranch Fairy (okay a buddy who was curious about archery found him and shared his videos with me) during this whole process. I had already shot a a bunch of arrows of different weights through a chronograph off my bow and two others by this time, built a pretty cool arrow calculator and settled on an arrow weight. I was really interested to see not only that Troy came to similar conclusions as I did but he could speak about what he figured out and it was obvious that he knew what he was talking about in a way many others did not. I love that he is a curious person and is always thinking about the problem and refining his philosophy. He may not be why I shoot a heavy arrow, but a lot of my success in arrow building is directly because of the advice he shares on youtube. He is also the reason why my hunting arrows are now single bevel two blades with a left hand twisting bevel instead of the three blade broadheads I switched to initially. I still approach the problem of building ideal hunting arrows from the bow end first, but only because my data shows there is a peak in KE (a few percent different) and a peak in momentum(18-25% low weight teated to high), so that tells me the neighborhood of what my arrow should weigh to get the most out of my bow. After that point, my thinking tends to line up with Troy's pretty well in that, what energy you have is what you have, so the projectile should put it to use the best it can and be the best tool for the job when the shot does not land as perfect as you'd like. It is cool to see that he brought in about the smartest person he could find with a similar passion and that both of them have the mentality of "this is the best we know right now" rather than "this is the way."
I just love this collaboration all around, from the brainiac to Troy who has the passion and knows how to approach the problem, to the guys at THP who just want to continuously improve and share their learning with as many outdoorsmen they can reach.
Its such a good thing its definitely better for the sport
Excellent, well thought out and well written comment.
I could listen to another 48 mins. Very good information thanks guys.
Finally! All that Algebra stuff I learned in high school that I always told my teacher I would never use in real life... Now is my chance! Lol
Finally someone brought up sectional density in relation to arrows!
Fantastic information! Now to research my set up and start changing my bolts and broad heads with this new info.
Interesting stuff! Can’t wait for more in depth data down the road.
Good stuff! You MUST do a follow-up on of this discussion, as this is just the starting point. Clearly, a heavier arrow matters for hunting purposes; but how heavy should an arrow be to get optimum results? & what else really matters from a practical point of view of bow-hunting, and how? (FOC, etc....?) And show some test results when you have them please.
Go to Ranch Fairy's channel. You have to test that with your bow to find what foc YOUR bow shoots best. No magic weight that just works across the boards. Watch his Arrow builds/high foc play lists will answer all your questions. It's up to you to put in the time and effort to find what optimal weight is best for "YOUR" bow.
This episode flew by. Thanks to all you guys for the information. Rocket man has an impressive resume.
This is by far my favorite video you have ever done on the tech side! You guys are awesome keep it up!
MR FOWLER IS THE BEST DAMN EXPLAINER NEEDED HIM TO INTERPRET ROCKET MANS LANGUAGE LOL
I was going to say “yep he should be a teacher”… but he is
@@colinbussiere-nichols8524 ha you know he's not even getting paid and he's opened my eyes un many ways God bless him you too bud happy independence day
Absolutely spot on.
I can see the speed guys heads blowing up.
So nice to see you guys talking to another engineer about this stuff. Was wondering when the RF would get in touch with one. I did all my engineering school work on a slide rule for the USN.
So many people just care what type of bow you shoot and never talk about arrows and broadheads like you should! Thanks so much for making this info available for everyone; hopefully it will make more people get involved in archery and fine tuning their whole set-ups starting from the arrow. Good stuff!
Awesome video. Learning a lot from you gentlemen. One thing I do want to mention is arrow speed. KE is super important but after several successful elk hunts, & mule deer I had a white tail jump my string. Ended with a spine shot and follow up lung shot. But I'd be interested in hearing yalls take on what the medium ground is where you combine both. KE, heavy FOC and speed to the target to avoid those sneaky whitail from ducking.
Congratulations on your recent nuptials. I noticed the ring a few videos ago but didn't want to speak out of turn. Good luck this fall.
That was an intense conversation, but it penetrated 😁. Enjoyed the heck out of it guys!
Great topic! Will you be posting a video of the second part of the podcast? It seems that the visual of that would be very helpful.
Next topic should be how foc changes the flight stability by changing the center of gravity relative to center of pressure, give his hypersonic experience a stretch back to subsonic
Excellent content btw! Really good stuff!
Brian, thanks. We are ON it! Look for the results of the tests soon, either here on THP or on Troy's channel
Great information. I know a lot of people don’t care about the information. I love it.
Troy, this is exactly what I asked you about over a year ago. Thank you
Damn! You guys are getting a top notch, high dollar education for FREE!
I could sit and listen to Ed talk about this stuff for hours!
Aaron beautiful picture congratulations man great looking family!!! You guys never cease to teach entertain and promote hunting love you guys
I just learned a ton of new info. May not understand it yet, but now I know for later discovery.
Can’t wait for more hunting videos!! But love them all!
For a broadhead to have adequate penetration ie (pass through )through infinite armour you need enough momentum to get the job done. Now you have to do your research to figure out how much momentum You need to Punch through all that armour. The armour varies with the size of the animal the angle the movement the thickness of the hide the length of the hair on the hide to name a few.This will vary depending on distance to the animal your hunting, what kind of broadhead to use i.e. two blade three blade four blade cut on contact or chisel tip.
And don’t forget plan for Plan B.
This is what I got out of this video. Great information, this will make better hunters out of all of us.
My spitfire never failed me until 2019 and 2020 really sad I shot two 3-4 year old bucks right through the scapula the thinnest part i was freaking lucky 12 yards watched em fall im like these things are the best had success watching or hearing them fall for 9 seasons straight. Had to lighten poundage to 52, also im on bigger heavier bucks very ironic it started happening when you guys started getting into this gods awesome
Man i really want more podcasts like this
Whoa great talk guys. I can't wait to see the results of the research that Y'all are doing. I gotta agree that we need to look at what happens at impact and what it takes to penatrate with lethality the animals that we hunt.
Absolute gold, thank you!
I’m working on bagging a public land south florida hog with my blowgun. I’ll tag the channel when I make it happen. Going as primitive as I can this year! Hope to see you all on the lake this year. 😉 going October 27th until November 5th. Then headed up to the farm in Kentucky. One month in the woods this fall
Good luck out there! I'll be in SW Ohio same time period.
Man this applies to so much.. great show thp!
Best video of the year guys!!!
I could hang with Troy and do ranch fairy stuff all day hes just a down to earth positive funny ass heck. 40 50 45 what about the shoulder errrrp Van shlup lol
I knew I was going to like this after the first minute!
Like the full nerd approach. It seems from a successful hunting/recovery lense that there is a optimum relationship between penetration and blood trail/ tissue disruption on a per species basis, assuming a plan b impact
Shaft wiggle on impact can effect momentum. As the tip impacts, the momentum energy will travel to the structures area of least resistance. Shooting through paper tells you it flies true, but on impact it will wiggle. Troy should slowmo arrows hitting a hard board target. Check the velocity of tale wiggle, see if that explains the random blips in his data. Cut on contact is the start, easing the entry. Now build from the target.
Wiggle a fishing rod. Where your hand is, is the broad head hitting the target. You will under stand what is happening too the broad head at entry.
I believe what you are describing is what Troy "RF" Fowler calls the "Impact Paradox".
As bows have developed thru the years, the industry push has been for faster arrow velocity. Several factors have driven this, mostly marketing what sells. To me, after 50 years of shooting different weight arrows out of longbows, recurves, compounds, and crossbows, the number one reason to shoot higher velocity is NOT so I can shoot deer at farther distances. It is because I want to hit the deer at CLOSER distances (20 yards), before the animal can SIGNIFICANTLY move at the sound of the shot, and take the arrow strike out of the kill zone. There has to be a happy medium between arrow lethality (good flight, momentum, broadhead design), and arrow velocity, so the arrow can hit the animal BEFORE it can significantly move, and still have the momentum to drive thru the vitals when Plan B happens.
400 grain arrow with a 3 inch 150 grain shwacker zipping along at 350 fps with 108 KE out of my crossbow passed straight through a rib, deployed inside the deer (after passing the rib) and passed through. He went 25 and dropped
@@CatfishCody I have not been much of a fan of mechanicals. Ranch was shooting dozens of hogs a year with mechanicals and having terrible recovery percentages, so went back to the drawing board and found Dr. Ed's research. In order to shoot traditional, heavy duty style broadheads, out of any bow or crossbow, the arrow has to be tuned with high FOC to get the arrow flight required to shoot them accurately. The trade off is a more lethal arrow, but much slower velocity, allowing the animal more time to move significantly before the arrow arrives.
@@Kurtdog63 that's why I shoot swhackers, they tend to deploy after they pass bone. I'm learning how to shoot compound and I'll stick to ranch fairy advice when it comes to that. I bought a Mission Sub-1XR last December, I'm shooting a 490 grain arrow at around 350 fps. I'm not too worried about bone penetration with that kind of KE and a shwacker
Omg I need more of this in my life..
Awsome guys...yrs ago I changed up.to a heavier arrow an broadheads...told everyone I was shooting power poles an they were shooting broom straws...they would look at me like I was crazy...but I was wanting more on impact....I got it...great point on buffalo...Indians used spears on them because arrows weren't enough........
thanks guys lots learned
The rocket man! 🤯 great stuff!
Great content in this video!! Definitely going to have a few friends watch this that are all about light setups and speed over weight see if you can change their minds lol
This is an EXTREMELY cool departure from the usual. Bravo!
How do I get a huge arrow like the one on the table in the video? Great video as well. Learned so much which is going to change archery for me forever.
That dang song just popped in my head rocket man!
Thanks. Now it's in mine! 😂
In one of the video's someone mentioned that you change the spine of the arrow when you cut it down. Is there a way to know what inches=spine is? So I have a 400 spine arrow cut down to 27" is it still a 400 spine arrow?
I'm loving the videos and the data it's changed my set up for ever but what blows my mind is its the same thing as with bullets 150grain and 180grain same bullet the 150 leaves muzzle going faster with more energy but 180 leaves muzzle alittle slower but down range it carrys more energy surpassing the 150. How did we not put this together before.
Awesome discussion
This is awesome! I really hope you do a follow up. Can we go even more nerdy? I want to know more about how FOC actually improves arrow flight. I have heard people explaining the benefits of FOC by talking about lever arms, but I don’t understand how a heavier point would change where the arrow flexes. I have also heard that higher FOC can cause the arrow to fly tangent the curve of its flight path (which would obviously improve penetration). Does this get increasingly better as we approach 100% FOC? What is the point of diminishing return? Why does this happen? I would love to have the rocket man break all of this down. Thank you again
Sit tight! We are doing that! I've got the trajectory codes written, and the tests planned! We don't know all the answers before hand, but I promise when we figure it out, we will get the information out there. Also, effects of FOC in cross winds...
Great content guys, well done. It's amazing to see the bowhunters argue against science, yet they trust it enough to not challenge gravity by jumping from a 10 story building. I'm thankful Troy ignores the rabid Ranch Fairy haters and keeps moving forward.
As a nerd I could have watched this for hours. Please upload more
Now that was some superaphysiological rabbit holes!
1-If I ever start hunting tanks or armored vehicles (or Cape buffalo or even wild hogs) I'll definitely remember this stuff.
2-But since I am hunting thin skinned whitetails in the South, and penetration is simply not an issue, but mis-judging distances by a few yards in a hurried moment (no time to range I have to judge it)...I'll stick to faster, flatter shooting, distance judging error correcting lighter arrows with cut on contact razor sharp heads!
I came over from the ranch fairy channel subscription added to your side
Good looking shirt you wearing during the intro.
Wow what a source!
It’s nice to hear someone talk physics who has at least taken a class for a change!😂
All I can say is WOW!!
Troy and THP are a blessing to me! If not for you I'd be scratching my head like a damn caveman lol I need a total shoulder replacement on my left shoulder had to lower lbs from 62 to 52 never changed my arrow setup started having penatration issues lost two bucks one lifetime buck. Went to my bow guy he got my 536 arrow making pin holes i hope I get a shot this season gotta sharpen the shit outta my 150 stinger buzz getting fired up wheres a hog lol
So is there a "Happy Medium" for arrow mass to give maximum lethality at 30 - 50 meters? Obviously there are so many other factors but for a given person/ of given strength/bow setup etc.
Well it was good seeing ya. It will be suttle but it will come to an end. Rip brother.
This is why I follow THP, Troy and read Ed Ashby's work. Incredible content.
One of the most interesting THP videos I have seen in what? Five years?
Thank goodness for Ashby 👏🙌
Guys, I enjoyed the video, but I think it might have confused more hunters than it helped. I think what most bowhunters are looking for is the best balance of penetration and trajectory. I think everyone would agree that mass is the only constant in the equation. A five hundred grain arrow will still weigh five hundred grains at impact. At the same time, velocity will vary significantly from the bow to the target depending on numerous variables like wind, distance, air pressure, etc. Since most archery shops use KE, measured at the bow, and gives velocity an edge over mass, most archers will choose a lighter arrow and broadhead combination.
For example, a 500-grain arrow at 270 FPS has a KE of 80.92 but drops the velocity to 200 FPS, and the KE drops to 44.4. If you raise velocity by just 30 FPS, the KE jumps to 99.9 for a 300 FPS setup. Conversely, going up in arrow weight by a hundred grains to a 600-grain arrow at 270 FPS only nets you a KE of 97.11. You can see how bow hunters can be misled into thinking velocity is more important than mass by the KE equation.
Great stuff!
Excellent video 💪🏽🇺🇸🏹
Go figure. Comparing Tanks to deer and it actually makes perfect sense.
Haha. Thanks, Kellan! When i made that analogy, I was thinking more along the lines of 250+ lb pigs, but I'm glad you enjoyed the comparison! To give you an idea of composite armor, here's a link to a description of one type of composite armor: below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.com/2016/11/chinese-tank-composite-armor.html
This video could have been 5 hours long and I would watch every second. Just fascinating. I've worked in bow shops and this is stuff I've always sort of known right......I just didn't understand it. Freaking awesome video.
Well done.
Wouldn't it be ironic if this team developed the most efficient broad head possible and it ended up shaped like the ones native Americans used to kill buffalo thousands of years ago? This is good stuff. Anything that increases lethality is good for our sport. Thanks!
I could tell you the answer but its classified.......great stuff guys
Awesome video 👍
Great stuff
Great episode! Sadly enough they just ended the rail program for the Navy. An awesome technology but there's up and coming weapons that leave it in the dust.
One thing you all didn't mention or I missed.... but on the cutthroats for example, do you shoot right or left bevel??? And what weight do you guy's generally shoot??? I know it depends on setup, but I was just curious.
If using a single bevel, use which ever grind that matches your fletching. If you have bare shafts still you can mark the top of your arrow with a sharpie and shoot it a few feet from the target to see which way it naturally spins off the bow.
Ur back
This episode deeply satisfied my nerd needs.... glorious....
Umm....... yeah this video was too short. Maybe? Great content guys!
Anyone going to comment on Rocketman's statement that the loss of the higher KE of the faster arrow starts to become a factor at "60-70-80 yards."? Very few people shooting game with a bow at those distances. Maybe in Africa?
I would think most of those long shots are actually taken place in western United States, Mulies and Antelope. From what I've read and seen Africa is up close and personal, a lot of watering holes and known distances etc.
Love Jakes hair in this one. Bed head. 😂 😂 😂
Like hitting a deer with a train or a prius which is going to stop first 🧐😄😄
If you go to Tire Warehouse...for a tire, what do you go to Men's warehouse for?
Attire