Podcast 339 - Finding Common Ground in Arrow Curiosity with Troy Fowler
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ส.ค. 2023
- This podcast is with Troy Fowler who many people claim is behind the charge in heavy arrow/FOC & penetration debates. After my recent arrow series “truth about arrows” Troy reached out to discuss some of these topics with me. Although many in the industry have found certain subjects or comments from Troy to be abrasive, I told him I would certainly like to talk more on the topics. I also wanted to understand his background because in the end, all I want is for archers to maximize their abilities and some of the “extremes” just don’t translate to accuracy and tuning.
Going into this podcast I didn’t know much about Troy’s background and wanted first hand information from him about some of the arrow opinions he has. We navigated our first long conversation together while he told me his side of curiosity and I explained my theories based on my experiences on the range and in the field. Although some of Troy’s post and comments within the archery community isn’t from the high ground I think he could choose to take, it becomes clear it’s part of what makes him who he is. Troy has made a few comments to me about the appreciation he has for some of the information I have shared and will lead him down some new paths. I like where we left off and hope I can be of help more if asked but also want to do what’s is possible to make sure the industry moves forward, TOGETHER for the betterment of all those who choose life with a bow. - กีฬา
I’m 50 years old and have been shooting a bow since I was a kid. Dudley taught me form and tuning. Troy opened my eyes to FOC and tuning arrows. Both took my archery to another level. Much respect to both. You shoot what you choose. I can now tune my own bow and arrows and make large fixed blade broad heads fly like field points. Thanks to both.
Well said
Great words brother 👍😎
I'm trying something new this year lighter weight but higher foc 436grain total arrow weight with a high 18 almost 19% foc, with a single bevel. I have a short draw length 26.5" but shot 70#'s, im getting 281fps broadheads hit with field points out to 60 yards
@@tylersweeney22 you're gonna be happy!!!
@@tylersweeney22that's a perfect set up imo
Mad respect to Troy for holding his tounge and being respectful throughout this entire interview. He comes across as an uber confrontational mad scientist when he's by himself but every interview I've seen like this where people are talking down at him he doesn't push it, respectfully listens and just asks questions until they inevitably contradict themselves.
Because of that I really think this interview will have a Streisand effect and actually lead more people to Troys channel which Dudley very obviously does not want.
Yep, Dudley comes off as the "I hang out with Joe Rogan" dude, and Troy seems like the guy who's like everyone else and trying to get the best he can without having to take everything to the "professional" bowshop to drop $1000's on the newest and "best".
I agree. Seems like Dudley just wanted to preach at RF rather than have a conversation to learn from each other. Props to RF.
Dudley doesn't know that Troy preaches perfect arrow flight and recommends 550gr for most people!
@@raybship1 100%
@christopherreitz8962 it's because he knows he can't beat Troy with statistics and science.
What I learned from this was that Troy is one humble SOB. I think he's one of those guys that knows a lot more than he lets on, but isn't interested in arguing about the things he's found to be true. At the same, he's receptive to criticism and likely uses that as fuel to see if that supports his beliefs or pokes a hole in them.
A man who is silent is thought to be wise.
I have learned things from both of these gentleman and I respect them both for different reasons. Ultimately I did go through Troy’s “process” and built 560 grain 17% FOC arrows with single bevel 2 blade heads. I diagonally blew through the first elk (a 5x5) I pointed it at while only shooting 62 lbs. The bull expired in under a minute. From a bow hunters perspective…It’s hard to argue with that.
Felt like Dudley was belittling Troy the whole time. Talking down to him like he was a child. If Dudley would of spent a few days or even a few hours watching some of RF videos he could of saved 30 min of talking. Ive always valued Dudley’s knowledge but after listening to that I probably won’t be tuning in anymore unless I forget how to tie a D loop or something.
Most folks don’t want to shoot groups at a hundred yards they just wanna be able to kill a deer 0-40 yards. I’ve been filming my hunts since the early 2000s been to Africa twice and was sick and tired of not being able to shoot thru animals from a 70lb bow. Trying to figure this out is how I ended up following Troy and it has opened up a whole new world for me. Once you get past the laugh and goofy sarcasm Troy is a pretty sharp guy with valuable info.
I follow both of these guys and have learned a lot from them. This is embarrassing by Dudley. Talked down to Troy, didn’t do his homework on him. Kudos to Troy to keeping his cool and not lashing out.
It’s funny to me that people put Troy in his own little camp and ostracize him when he’s one of the only ones willing to have conversations and find middle ground.
Couldn't agree more; 100%
If you were a professionally trained and certified mechanic, and people kept bringing in cars that were messed up, because the customer choose to mess it up deliberately, and said a guy who knows nothing about cars told them to do it, you’d be pretty pissed as well.
@@matthewlittle9492 except the guys you’re referring to only heard about 25% of what the original guy said…
@@brettmcmurray5915no, we know what Troy said. He wants people to shoot as heavy as they can, and not shoot beyond 40 yards. This is just stupid.
@@matthewlittle9492why would you be pissed off at a first world problem called: continuous work? You're going to get angry at receiving more work, which in turn will pay your bills and your salary? Wow, garbage take.
I was lost a long time ago over that Yetti cup for those of you who understand. This just verified it for me. Thanks Troy for your view on a sport where showing the proof has merit. Multiple ways to achieve your goal.
Don't forget his buddies at Black Rifle Grifter company
What happened?
John says he's not promoting long range shooting but then groups at 75 yards daily, builds bows that shoot out to 100 yards for customers, smoked a wildebeest at 100+ yards and TAC is long range. Troy promotes arrows that kill what they hit and reminds you not to forget to practice with your broadheads and tune your arrows. Dudley really could have taken this another way.
I always thought the point of bow hunting was to get as close as possible. Dudley is a competition archer that also bow hunts therefore he doesn't care about what setup kills the best, his main focus is what will help kill the farthest away. He always go back to distance, when that's not the point of bowhunting
John clearly stated he was a bow hunter first. I guess you didn’t listen.
@progradepainting3755 ppl can say they are a lot of things. His actions are what tell you what he really is. The point of bowhunting is to get close not to see how accurate you are at 100 yards on anything but targets. If your main goal in archery is to be able to kill something at very far distances over getting close as possible than you're an archer not a hunter.
Obviously, the industry is scared of Troy. Just like when they buried the Ashby notes.
@@dannypetersen1138 no, nobody’s scared of Troy dude. Have you ever even gone through his test kit? I have. I have two bows, and one of them is set up with the ez-v sight, and a 650 grain arrow (because that’s where his kit will land you if you follow his method through).
It’s absolutely ridiculous. I can’t even stay in a pie plate at 50 yards. Just the slightest variance in your hold, and its the difference between a complete miss and even hitting the target at all. Forget accuracy all together. 40 yards is the furthest this set up can hit with anything even remotely close to consistency.
It’s just stupid. It’s really not a practical system by any means. It took a lot of time to set it up, and it was only worth it in the sense that I learned this is for clowns, not true bow hunting.
My other bow, it’s shooting a moderate 480 grain arrow, a sevr mechanical head, and it shoots laser beams up to 80 yards. It has nice tight pin gaps, it’s reasonably fast, it hits hard, it’s forgiving, and it’s lethal.
The choice is yours though. I had to find out for myself. So having two bows showed me truth, and the truth is troys method isn’t practical.
You, troy, and MFJJ have elevated my archery game. its important to remember that the more we can understand different perspectives, even if we don't always completely agree, the better we all will be.
Emphasize
Same here man those 3, guys on AT, a few personal mentors over the years you create your own unique archery identity. Mfjj is probably the best middle man between these two on the tube.
I enjoy all three; but MFJJ is a lot more like John than Troy@@jhuntley575
You're talking to the bowhunting community, that's a hard concept to comprehend for a lot of dudes that get emotional over other men's arrow setups.
I’m 21 minutes in and Dudley has said he knows nothing about ranch for the 5th time as if it’s some sort of accomplishment knowing nothing about his guest
Hopefully you made it through the video, but it doesn't get any better...
It's a very passive aggressive way to treat someone and the subject. I didn't like his overall attitude towards Troy.
Hes an arrogant prick now. If you're not joe rogan, Joel turner or cam Newton then you're not worth his time
Basically why I stopped watching Dudley's vids years ago. Don't care for the way that dude comes across.
Dud missed it. Ultimately pick the best tool for the situation! I’m a normal 500 for everything past 45 yards. You can’t dispute weight to retained KE. But biggest turnoff was talking down to RF. Both have tremendous info on real time situations. But remember YOUR NOT THE END ALL BE ALL ON ARCHERY. He was kinda dickhead. Just came off wrong.
Kinda like how RF is on most every video he makes.
Just go have a listen around the 1:55:00-2:05:00 mark. Dudley talked about tuning the arrow to the bow and shooter. He talks throughout about this being what he does. He wouldn't throw a target arrow in his hunting bow or a hunting arrow in his TAC bow. This is the starting point. One of these guys has 7-8 bows and 7-8 sets of arrows for very specific situations. I would guess that MOST archery guys don't have that luxury. This segment of the discussion lets me know that Dudley has no clue what RF actually talks about in his content. RF talks about tuning the arrow to the bow. He also doesn't advocate for taking a 300 spine arrow and throwing 500 gr. inserts and a 400 gr broadhead on the front. He advocates for higher FOC with fixed blade broadheads to take more game, something Dudley acknowledges. Instead of seeing this, Dudley spends his time trying to ridicule RF's technique (new flash, RF talks about his poor form in his videos constantly) and trying to counter RF on everything, rather than understanding what RF actually puts out. "That's where you and I don't understand each other, that's exactly what I tell people to do," from RF where Dudley says, "I'm chasing speed." Speed doesn't always equal dead game, this is what every hunter knows. The best part is Dudley literally explains the bare-shaft tuning process until he basically tries to say what he was saying for the last 10 minutes was not what he was actually saying.
Jd: points at bucket of arrows
Rf: what spine are those
Jd:250 and 300 with different inserts
Rf: (thinking yeah you’ve never watched my channel)
I think a lot more archers have more than 1 bow than you might think.
Well done Troy, well done. I see what you were doing here. Excellent skill and class.
We always have a choice on how we react to the way we are treated by others. You chose the high road.
When you can't argue against facts, faking like youre the smarter guy is a usual tactic of a guy with no argument
Who cares? Dud has the skill to back up his position. Troy doesn’t. End of story
@progradepainting3755 youre right his research and testing are meaningless, actually anybody that isn't amazing at something should never have any position on it. Like a lot of sports journalists sucked at sports so they shouldn't have an opinion on sports.
@@ep3389 would you argue with a brain surgeon because you want to feel like you have position too?
@progradepainting3755 haha you don't think there's ppl out there that tell brain surgeons they are doing something wrong or that there is a better way in certain applications that aren't brain surgeons then you're more ignorant than I thought. Troy has much more data and compares to the average hunter much more than dudley to back up what he's saying. Dudley is a target shooter first a hunter 2nd. Those are 2 very different things. Troy only deals in what kills the best. So using your comparison dudley is the brain surgeon when it comes to accuracy but Troy is the brain surgeon when it comes to what kills the best and quickest. I mean to act like Troy is just an average nobody is laughable.. when it comes to hunting dudley wouldn't even be a top 100 guy in that industry.
John, it still comes down to knowing the capability of your equipment. How is hunting with a heavier arrow system vs. lighter any different then someone shooting at an Elk with a TRAD bow @ 170 fps vs. a compound @ 290? The hunter limits his or her distance and shot selection based on equipment capability and personal skill level. Everyone is responsible for what they shoot and how they shoot it. And if someone shoots a 600 grain arrow at TAC, that person is lazy or an idiot and obviously doesn't understand the assignment.
I just don't understand this tone from you the past couple weeks. You say the intent is to educate, but that has been overshadowed by an arrogant and condescending attitude. You didn't treat Joel the same way you treated Troy, not even close. Hunting pedigree doesn't matter if your real goal was to teach and learn because just about everyone has something to offer. It's pretty clear your goal with this podcast was to embarrass Troy and that is a shame. You have an awesome platform and do a lot for the archery industry, but you aren't the only one.
And for the record, I shoot a 500 grain arrow and a fixed blade head. That was settled after testing more arrow setups than I can count. I took info from a lot of great resources but arrived at that weight and head selection by putting in the work. I stuck with it because it has been devastating on whitetails.
In the end the numbers and science doesn't matter to some of these guys with fragile ego's. Dudley showed the emperor has no clothes.
100 percent! Troys Advice has definitely helped me kill more whitetails more efficiently And humanely!
I agree with you three in the comments above. Let each person shoot how they want as long as it’s legal and ethical for their scenario. I flung some field points and broadheads at extended ranges (for me) last week and they performed well! I was surprised. But, 30 and in is where I like to hunt I’m really not going to get an opportunity at anything farther. And the heavy setup suits me well there.
So if you listen to RF and go to 600 grain, and then decide to shot 3D shoots with that very setup so that you get experience with it to be prepared for hunting, that makes you an idiot?
@@shanerRC That what they think. So focused on "Muh pin gaps" and "muh mechanicals". Derrr logic hurts muh caveman brain
John's talking arrow flight & groups at 90 meters while Troy's shooting pigs at 17yds. I don't think they were on the same page more than 20% of the entire interview.
You are 100% right. I feel like John is telling people they need to practice and become Elite as far as accuracy. Troy is trying to help average guy who can't shoot hours a day become more lethal when they hit an animal.
20% - not at all. Clearly John thinks Troy preaches extremes - was taken aback when Troy said the test kit starts at 100 grains - not spears. They actually both in the 500-550 gr ball park.
Spot on.@@african7498
Dudley is the guy preaching extremes, 90 percent of hunters aren't shooting animals past 40 yards. In those distances of 40 and in a bone breaking setup is the best. He can't argue those statements it's why he always pushes the conversation to distances which most people never concern themselves with.
@@stevenpaul4688I don’t think this is right at all. If you’re going to shoot 600+ grains. You better practice 10x more. You can never be as accurate with that heavy of an arrow. If you’re shooting target in your back yard at 20 yards…. Sure. But target is not live animal. Animals move. Animals are 3 dimensional. Animals will not be at known yardage. Difference between 23 and 25 yards is enough to miss by 6”. Its a lot tougher to be accurate so practice is even more critical and a range finder should be used
RF: lets talk about both our points and try to find some common ground for the good of the community
Dud: u dont shoot with absolute perfect form so everything u say must be void.
Exactly, this podcast just solidified Troy's points even more. Even though Troy's shot a bow for 30 years, Dudleys like yeah your form is trash that's your problem. If Troy's form is trash just imagine the average bow hunter lol.
sums up the entire interveiw
Dudley is hanging the sins of all the people who casually follow RF and put in minimal effort educating themselves on the complete Ashby study on Troy in this interview. In rule #6 regarding arrow weight, in bold print to ensure it is not overlooked: "You should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable". The last five words seem to get discarded whenever someone critiques the concept. Dudley hasn't read it, if he had, he wouldn't be complaining about not having enough pins to shoot 80yds. If you want to shoot 80, lower the weight until you have the heaviest arrow that will fly 80 yards. It would be like Troy ripping Dudley for seeing some guy at the range misusing a nock-on product and blaming Dudley for that. It was disrespectful all around. Arrogance personified.
Hey I get it dude. I'm sure there are many heavy arrow disciples who are true archery artists. But let's talk about the big picture...not preaching to the choir. Think about the vast majority - I mean there's a damn good reason I don't go out on public land during modern gun season. The number of moronic knuckleheads running around doing the stupidest shit you could ever imagine is scary. That same dude picks up a bow and does more really stupid shit. That dude listens to some really good info. coming from RF but doesn't listen to all the details and take the effort to really learn how to use the system.
@@kylehardin936 That same stupid person can come up on egotistical dudley video and learn only half the info there and still walk away making mistakes. You can't fix stupid.
Rf always says perfect arrow
Flight is first anyways. Don’t go
Crazy heavy if it doesn’t fly straight.
@@garrettstraffon608he won’t even shoot beyond 40 yards… with a modern compound bow. When do the red flags go off for you here?
@@progradepainting3755because he is shooting hogs over bait in Texas, why would he need to shoot over 40 yards? Did you listen to anything in this video? He said he doesn't hunt whitetails or much of anything else because he enjoys shooting hogs.
A lot of good information from both of these men. I do find it quite disrepectful to not at least know something about the guy you're interviewing though. Kind of hard to try to debate somebody's message when you dont even understand what their message is. Troy has a lot of valuable information that speaks to the every day archer and i think John clearly underestimated that.
It’s not that he doesn’t know anything about Troy, it’s he doesn’t want to know. You can interview people you know nothing about. Joe Rogan does it all the time but at least he asks questions to gain some perspective
@@bigz5262 Nothing you said is accurate so I will disregard it like it deserves. He clearly new nothing about Troy except what he had heard from other people maybe.
@@sethruddock5360 I was agreeing with you dude. He didn’t know anything about Troy. Which wouldn’t be bad if he actually tried to understand his perspective
This was the most frustrating point of the interview. John wasn't interested in listening and knew little to none about Troy's message.
@@bigz5262 Lol. You were obviously agreeing with this dude, and elaborating on that idea. People are nuts man. But, you are correct. Rogan does a great job interviewing people he may know nothing about. He shows respect. Dudley showed zero respect. You can tell he doesn't think he has to show Troy respect. After all, he's John Dudley right?? Yuck. Huge ego, and it showed. Would be nice to see him address the comments on this video and show some humility but he won't. He'll prolly delete this comment. lol
I’ve been bow hunting for 25 years and I’ve never been able to get the arrow flight I do post Ranch Fairy. No matter what Dudley says, I’ve seen mine and others proficiency and kill rate increase without changing any form. AND 90% of those kills aren’t elk, they are Mississippi Delta public lane from a tree! I couldn’t care less about 75 yard groups….. that doesn’t impress me.
Same boat as you just across the river from you in Louisiana. I like both of these guys and have taken cues from the both of them.
100 percent! I’ve been hunting over 25 years myself! Proof is in the pudding
That's probably because your bow was never tuned right or you were massively underspined.
Then you haven’t hunted out west my friend. 25 yards? Out of a tree? Why do you even need more than one pin? I would be in heaven if all I had to do was make a 20 yard shot out of a tree stand.
@@progradepainting3755then come hunt in the southeast and quit talking down to every single commenter because you don't understand what's needed to make tight shots in a thick swamp.
It is obvious that Dudley has not listened to any of Troy's material. They both tinker to get the best out of what "they" want. John just believes he is better than Troy
I respect John immensely, but sometimes I feel as though he thinks HE IS archery. He danced around arrow lethality just like with IW Bill.
Well when it comes to archery, he is exponentially better than Troy. He also has way more experience testing arrows and bow equipment than Troy does.
John believes he's better than everyone.
That wasn’t my takeaway from this podcast. To me it was 2 guy’s meeting for the first time and feeling each other’s experiences and knowledge out. I like Troy and what he’s doing. But John’s got the long term experience, hunting. So I’m glad they got together and If they continue to communicate and share and compare what they know, it’s better for the entire archery community.
He’s is, by a long shot.
Love John Dudley’s stuff a lot but he really didn’t do a great job on this one. At the very beginning he says he doesn’t really consume much of Troy’s content and doesn’t know much about him and then proceeds to spend an hour and a half plus picking Troy’s body of work apart. Both of these guys contribute so much to the archery industry and in my opinion they both deserve a ton of respect for their respective bodies of work.
Exactly
Yep
Straw man approach. He attacked a fictitious foe.
Picking what he THINKS is Troy's body of work apart. What's he's heard it is from the grape vine
This was the most cringe podcast I’ve ever watched. All he did was try to throw shade at Troy the whole time and dude acts like he is the Bow God. It was disrespectful and tasteless. It also shows that he didn’t do any research on his guest before he had him on. Troy knows what he is talking about and his tests also prove it. I mean for crying out loud he’s got a senior aerospace engineer helping him out.
"Rocketman" Darrel Barnette!
Agree 100%, see my comment above.
Agreed
Couldn’t agree more with your comment. Trying to convey my thoughts on this, but I think only one word is needed and pompous sums it all up. Just left a bad vibe for me. Now whenever I see anything Nockon or his vids pop up I definitely look at him in a different aspect.
@@nathenemmons8301pompous is a lot nicer than the word that came to my mind first.
Fascinating. I have watched both men extensively and have appreciated their work.
I dont know how well either of them fully grasps that the other starts (and focuses attention) on the exact opposite ends of the bow killing process.
Duds: Person to Animal. 1. Form and practice 2. Bow tune. 3. Arrow/arrow flight, 4. broadhead - with an emphasis on hitting your mark as the means to kill the animal.
Troy: Animal to Person. 1. The animal’s anatomy 2. The best type of tool (broadhead) to inflict killing damage. 3. The best mechanism to deliver that damage (heavy arrow) 4. Arrow Flight - with an emphasis on the nature of the tool (broadhead specs and projectile weight) as a means to kill the animal.
Duds is a great guy, but he really needed to do us all a favor and know his opponents arguments and positions before engaging a debate. As a result he kept the conversation in his sphere of expertise (form, bowtune) and talked down to Troy. Man it was cringeworthy. I don’t think Duds is aware he could learn a lot from Troy’s knowledge of cardiovascular systems, cutting mechanisms, and penetration.
Troy is a good dude, but referring to extra heavy arrows (550g +) as “adult arrows” is condescending and itself a bit childish. It also draws a non-existent black and white line in the sand for “proper bow-hunting.” No doubt the folly of this language and attitude has irked some (ie many professional archers/hunters) who know from experience they can devastate animals with lighter setups.
Both of them could benefit spending more time with the other on the opposite end of the “bow killing process.” Because of Duds posture and focus during the podcast Troy now knows this. And because of Duds posture and focus during the podcast John Dudley doesn’t.
Wonderful display of restraint exhibited in the comments. I have watched some Dudley content and to date I have not disagreed with any of it. Obviously, Dudley has a lot of experience and his accomplishments in archery are many. Dudley is most likely the premier authority on all things compound bow archery and seems to be sincere about informing all archers. Thanks Dudley.
I have been killing deer with a bow since the early 80's. I also was a speed guy until one Alpine bow taught me that light arrows made that particular bow as noisy as a screen door on Grandma's house slamming shut. Nevertheless, I killed a lot of deer with that bow, by anticipating the deer gathering themselves to flee and shooting at the lower 3rd of the deer. Reference IBO speed vs. AMO speed. Back in the late 70's and early 80's, we "speed freaks" were trying to build lighter arrows all the way down to the manufacturers IBO speed rating. If I recall correctly, IBO is 5 grains per pound. Now like Dudley, I'm in the middle, if not on the lighter side (75#, 29.5", 518 grains), and I'm actually going to go down 50 grains to 468 just because I like fast bows for certain applications, such as hunting from the ground during the whitetail rut, where being able to shoot accurately at my max of 60 yards has proven to be handy. Prior to the rut, I will fill my freezer by using a Trad bow set up for no more than 15 yards.
My point in all of this is that Troy was shooting big pigs at specifically 20 yards, or less and the big pigs were running off wounded and sometimes mortally wounded. Troy did what any man on a mission would do and developed a system that would effectively penetrate big pigs making the tracking job short. There was very little said about Troy's proven success on large pigs, so let's clear that up. I'm betting that Troy has plenty of pictures of large pigs that were taken with his heavy arrow set up. If I were going after pigs, I'm going Troy's route. If I'm wanting to kill deer at 60 yards, I'm going Dudley's route, so neither are wrong.
What I do disagree with is Dudley about is publicly humiliating Troy about his shooting form. A much more classy approach would have been to discuss that in private. Kudo's to Troy for maintaining diplomacy while under attack. I'm 62 years old and I rarely comment, but this one kinda twisted my tail and I really don't care if I piss off anyone, because sometimes people need to be held accountable. We all put our pants on one leg at a time.
Regards
Shout out to Troy for his patience and respect! That was a rough, cringey podcast and I’ll just leave it at that. I just know that tinkering is fun as hell and that’s what archery is supposed to be, is fun. But yeah I’m glad that’s over 😅
I can’t believe Dudley actually said “I like when my arrow stays in so I can see where I hit”
Than he says all of a sudden penitration is now a big topic what a tool
Not a RF homer but Man, lost some respect for Dud on this one as a podcaster not caring enough to do research on his guest. Very unprofessional and the whole conversation felt like a setup to make Troy look incompetent. John needs to stick to teaching archery and not attempt to relate to the common hunter.
Notice he posted another interview with his mentor 1hr after this one and comments like this started coming through. JD claims he’s trying to unite the community but then tells RF he’s doing more harm than good and assumes he knows everything RF’s tested and recommends despite saying he hasn’t watched a single one of RF’s videos. In a good interview/debate you’d ask a lot of questions up front to figure out where, if any, the disagreement is. This was just a grandstand session.
I’m with you. I’m not a follower of Troy but I’ve been a huge fan of Dudley. This was not a good look for John. Troy pointed out several times things that John couldn’t answer. John’s defense for everything is well you suck at shooting. Then the condescending attitude towards Troy the whole time rubbed me the wrong way.
I agree he comes in saying I haven’t watched any of your stuff. And rf wasn’t going to sit there and argue or talk about his stuff. But Dudley didn’t want to hear any of it, mad respect for rf keeping his cool and acting like he cares about form lol. We just want to kill animals we all no we need to practice. The point rf should have made is people shouldn’t be taking that set up to tac. It’s a hunting set up, and I shoot a 470 grain arrow I’m the in between guy. So I take advice from both. But Dudley failed on this one big time.
I agree with you on this 100 percent.
This just made me unsubscribe. Not enough respect to research your guest, you had him on for a reason. He puts out valuable information and it makes sense. You basically said because he's not a professional archer you can't take him seriously. This was a bury episode. Highly unprofessional.
I’ve never heard Troy recommend a 600gr arrow for TAC. John’s frustration is misdirected.
I personally thought John was off basis on a lot of this podcast or didn’t know what Troy is about. Troy is trying to help the common bow hunter who is not an elite archer, build a bow hunting setup to maximize success even on off shots that happen in real world hunting. It seemed like John was frustrated at Troy for TAC shooters that took Troy’s ideas aimed at bow hunting and bow hunting ranges. In reality, that was never Troy’s intention to build TAC setups or even recommend TAC setups to anyone.
Dud did no research and it shows….. he honestly looked ridiculous
Dud did no research and it shows….. he honestly looked ridiculous
The problem is Dudley is seeing all these guys at tac events fail bc they are chasing these heavy weights with the FOC to shoot long range. Troy said he wouldn’t shoot past 40 yards outside of practice and for the most part he’s shooting pigs at 20 yards. Also part of the problem is how guys are interpreting Troy’s message. If you are getting optimal broadhead flight from the distances you are going to shoot then I don’t see there being a wrong answer. Shot what is optimal for your style. Not anybody’s fault that they interpret a message improperly
@@marquess11I think people who really like Troy but maybe aren't as experienced shooting or hunting have a tough time seeing when Troy's not completely right.
I think I'd love the guy in person but I just wish he'd get his tone right in his videos. How he comes across in his videos is very prescriptive and this is the science. Without giving an credence to the other side or actively discrediting them. Dudley's number one concern is accuracy and honestly I don't think we would care at all if he stayed in his "area of expertise" being hogs. However, I see The Hunting Public guys (who I like a ton) using these setups for antelope, mule deer and elk. And people are following suit! Good luck getting to 20 yards on an antelope consistently. It's possible on water but God that's boring. Range error is huge guys, it really is.
Lost a lot of respect for Duds on this one. He said in his interview with Iron Will Bill that he was trying to bring the community together but seems like only if they all just listen to him and agree with him.
Exactly. Not the way to go about it at all
Too many yes men on his side. I don’t think Duds took the time to watch any of Troys videos before doing this podcast.
Shooting 630 grains at 20% foc with a fixed blade and I'm never going back. Thanks RF
Dud missed the opportunity on this one. RF biggest thing is in hunting situations animals move its not shooting x's or foam indoor/outdoor. There are factors outside of your control on animals so what will tip the odds in your favor the most.
100%. No arrow is fast enough to beat an animal’s reaction, as is shown by the many videos of whitetails moving on shots inside 30yds with light fast setups.
@@dougderoythis actually hasn't been disproven, at all. Troy's videos on this have been really deceiving. Time in flight being irrelevant is not a valid point. The benefit of a heavy arrow is a slightly quieter bow and arrow.
@@dougderoyI think we're missing the point here - it's not necessarily can a whitetail jump a fast arrow or a light arrow - it's can a faster arrow minimize movement? Math tells us yes. I don't advocate for anyone to shoot faster than 300 fps or to shoot mechanicals. But the math does work to minimize movement.
@@CEMuhlbeier math shows the “minimizing” is minimal at normal hunting distances. For example, even if you pretend arrows don’t lose speed after launch, at 30yds an arrow traveling at 300fps will beat a 250fps arrow to target by only 0.06 seconds. In the real world the difference is even less because lighter arrows exhibit more relative speed erosion than heavier arrows. My point is that animal movement takes control of the ultimate impact point out of the hands of the shooter and then you are relying more on penetration ability than your inherent accuracy as a shooter.
@@CEMuhlbeierEver since I moved my setups into the 450gr-550gr range, I get deer moving far far less due to the quieter shot than when I shot sub 420. Like, amazingly less. There’s definitely a point of diminishing returns, but having a bow go off like a gunshot isn’t helping anything.
Man I'm disappointed in Dud, I was really looking forward to them having a conversation and Dudley was just so dismissive and wouldn't even listen to Troy, and I wish Troy would have explained that his builds are for know short yardage shots and his plan B philosophy. I hope they both absorb each other's information and do this again because I got nothing out of this one
If you listen carefully to everything else that each has to say, you will find that JD is responding to how the archery community is absorbing RF's info. People are going to TAC events with heavy arrow setups and using it for more than just short, know distance hunting scenarios. Each of theses guys has been a credit to archery, and each will tell you that there is not just one right way to do things...it depends on the scenario. Unfortunately, many of the listeners seem to be hearing that.
@@kylehardin936If you’re going to hunt with 600gr, would it really be so bad to shoot at TAC with it? Better to learn how your system works in scenarios like that than on animals in the field. Most ranges/shops don’t go past 20.
@@unsupportedultra Ya, I think it would. For the same reason I would only use a 600+ grain setup in scenarios that RF himself would recommend....big hogs at close, known range or big, dangerous game. Most don't have the skill set or the time to practice lobbing a heavy arrow at ultra long distances. And the time to target allows for too much potential failure - wounded animal. I speak for myself...it would be hard to see a 170 point whitetail at a longer range and not want to let one go. I think if you're going to dedicate all the time and energy into being a good bowhunter, you should probably figure out how you can get outdoors and practice at 20, 30, 40 and beyond. That's not asking too much. I've watched every video RF has ever made - I'm no hater, and I think Troy would agree with me. There is simply not one and only one way of doing things. The heavy arrow has it's place, but I'm not sure most people have the discipline to stay within those limitations.
@@kylehardin936 Tbh, I would throw an 400gr arrow past 40 at a 170” whitetail. I can almost guarantee it would get out of the way even with a 300fps launch.
And Troy (and Ashby) would agree with your statement. It’s even written in the Ashby rule #6 on arrow mass. “Bowhunters should use the heaviest arrow that will deliver a trajectory they can live with.”
@@unsupportedultra LOL...I've never hunted quite that light - I've been in the 470-490 range lately. But that does take us down a whole different rabbit hole. If you can't make an ethical 40 yd. shot with a fast arrow, at what distance can you make an ethical shot with the heavy arrow? Oh boy, that will get the gears grinding. I personally, try my best to judge the demeaner of the deer and it's state of 'alert'. I don't think I'd shoot that doe that is stomping and snorting at 20 yds.
BTW, I appreciate the back and forth.
Dudley is obviously out of touch from the 99% of us that have never had professional archery training. And most dont even have a proshop motivated enough to help their customers learn. Yet he has this Elitist ideology that perfect form and tune is the answer over anything Troy could ever test and prove to help normal bowhunters. Dud was a dud on this one.
How dare an archery expert discuss proper archery….
I was waiting for the discussion about what happens once the arrow hits the animal. Lots of talk about flying it there which is equally important but no discussion on how momentum and FOC effects penetration which is the meat and potatoes of this whole argument.
I can tell you I’ve shot 2 moose, both at over 55 yards. First arrow was 396gn and the second was 448gn. Both iron will 100gn broadheads. Both clean passthrus. Never found either arrow. Heavy doesn’t mean lethal . U miss the sweet spot, arrow weight doesn’t mean a thing. Heavy=misses at distance
@@danielellisporter Both of your arrows are more than acceptable given your broadhead choice. John didn't want to go there just like he danced around it with Iron Will Bill.
@@cjr4497 but we r discussing momentum and foc. Both of those arrows had low foc and didn’t carry much in the way of momentum. That’s my point. Sharpness of the broadhead isn’t something you can factor into archers advantage. Interesting stuff to discuss but I find it pretty funny when people treat recommendations from JD or ranch fairy or anyone else for that matter as the word from on high.
@@danielellisporter funny my 550 grain arrow is going 290 fps I have enough travel to get that set up to 100 yards pin gaps are small now I am shooting 80 pounds at 29 inches and your wrong if you miss the sweet spot with your light arrow might not mean a thing but that heavy arrow most times will get through where your light arrow did not thats why its called a plan B arrow...
@@jasonard7227 that’s the point. Not a chance I’m getting that kind of speed at 27.5” draw. You basically can shoot anything u want with those kinds on f numbers. Not even a comparison
This interview was bad faith. It seemed you, Dudley, came in for a debate and Troy didn't know it. Then, you never defined the terms. What was the argument? You can't debate a guy when you know nothing about him, his philosophy, how he conducts his tests, etc. Your whole argument was based off assumptions. Not cool, dude. If you want what is best for your followers, you may want to watch Troy's catalog then do a debate.
And he started the whole thing off talking about who to trust
He wouldn’t even have to watch his videos, he could have just asked him instead of acting like he knew everything about him
@bigz5262 Agreed.
You dont put down your guest with your intro either. I was shocked to see JD stoop this low.
I love both of these guys. I am a much better archer today because of them. I am my own bow tech because of Dudley and am more lethal because of Troy.
Troy was super humble and I think caught John off guard with his intelligence and even his testing. John on the other hand seemed very arrogant and aggressive. Troy outclassed him by a mile. Super disappointing the way John presented this. Troy , nice work on keeping your composure and professionalism. For the record I shoot exactly what John preaches , this was just very poorly done in my opinion.
Spot on. Not a good look for dud.
Still watching, but John does a claim from authority. He's a good shot, therefore you should believe him. Troy is more empirical than dogmatic. Troy shows what his ideas are based off of. Troy isn't the archery guru; he's a cardiologist.
John's complaints are people launching logs at TAC. Troy's complaints are people wounding animals.
I agree , I’m not positive but I’m pretty sure Troy has never promoted he’s ideas to be a good 100 yard arrow. I can appreciate he thinks outside of the box and experiments. John puts himself out as the dictator of TH-cam and if he doesn’t approve of what you’re posting about you shouldn’t be allowed to. I think that’s junk. I was really turned off when he had Dan on too, both of them bragging about how they are not consumers of TH-cam only creators. Shows how disconnected they both are with what they preach. Neither would be as success as they are financially if it weren’t for TH-cam and their subs. Maybe they should offer a little support back or maybe their subs should pay attention to that. Never was a Dan fan in the first place though, so that may be bias. And if you believe John went to all this Tac events to “help everyone” you have drank the koolaid. He’s a business man. He went to sell you he’s brand. Smart , but don’t be fooled. It’s a great marketing model not a favor.
@@jarredmeadows8160 Dan is an asshole, too. Dan will tell you to get whatever kit he just bought, because it's awesome because he bought it.
Bill Vanderheyden is about the best middle ground. I disagree with John on trauma versus penetration. Two holes through the chest cavity drastically reduces the chance of clotting and collapses the lungs faster. One big ass hole with no pass through takes longer to kill the animal. We don't kill by dumping KE like bullets do, we kill by preserving KE all the way through the animal and not blocking the hole.
It's really interesting to see people come away with different conclusions. I thought Dudley went into this open minded and did a great job presenting his opinion. He's done this for 30 years and has tested a PILE of stuff and killed a ton of things. Troy mentions he's not trying to confirm his bias when testing and gives the illusion of objectivity. But when I watch his videos, it's all designed to confirm Ashby or his opinions.
Dudley might be good at archery but he seems like a real narcissistic prick. Much rather spend time with Troy just seems like a good guy!
Troy seems at least as narcissistic. Ever watch his vids?!?
Dud I do believe there are just as many bad shops as there are good. Mine can’t tie a D loop correctly… but thanks to you I’m my own bow tech now.
Shop near me are snobs. Walk in with anything under flagship and they laugh at you. Arrogant elitest jerks with egos don't help the sport.
Soooo true. The next podcast with Joel Maxfield he’s says “the bow shops know this” when talking about the scientific aspects and I almost fell out of my chair.
Same. Dud has a lot of respect for bow shops and that's one thing I disagree with him on. I know there are good ones but that's not the norm in my area.
Only when a bowman works on their own equipment can they then call themselves an archer.
Never let anyone touch your equipment except for you and the manufacturer that made the bow if there is defective things that you as an archer cant fix.
I had so many shops destroy my gear because they had no concept of what they were doing.
From bows and crossbows.
I love both these guys and their content... on their own, in their own space. This interview was horrendous. i can only think Dudley was hoping / looking for a fight and Troy did not give it to him. Condescending isnt even the right word to describe this. Dud, you are better than this.
Dudley is hard to listen to. He talks in circles over and over.
Apparently not. My take away is Dudley has contracts $$$ he needs to say the right thing or else. Mechanicals are not selling like they did 10 years ago.
Mechanicals suck. Seriously, why would you put a component that can fail in the business end of the arrow. It should be as strong as possible, as dependable as possible
Troy is constantly condescending to other shooters and hunters. Its pathetic. He literally sells merch that says shoot adult arrows. As if to say if you dont do what he does then youre a little gay boy.
Pretty sure structural integrity and perfect arrow flight is the first two determining factors in penetration according to Dr Ashby.. i think a bunch of people skip past that. The Ashby foundation has released some data hunting with compounds in Africa. Even if you don't agree entirely with Dr. Ed his original study is huge and full of a bunch of useful information.
They agree with Ed's principles they just can't admit it.
I would probably side with dudleys methodology on most things archery and I appreciate all he does for archery. That being said, he comes across as very condescending in this entire discussion. Humility is a virtue and I hope he can listen to this later and objectively learn from it. I def. Have more respect for Troy after this than before I listened to it. He was very humble throughout the discussion.
As an archer there are a number of factors which effect my ability to not only hitting a target but what happens when it hits the target. As a hunter I've established my own parameters to successfully harvest an animal. Both individuals provide essential elements to make this happen. Interesting discussion but I think it didn't capture the depth of their respective knowledge pertaining to the topic. It is difficult to critique Troy's running process without actually understanding it.
My hunting setup 60lb Elite Remedy 29.75" draw length 602gn Hunter TX with 200gn SB Iron Will broad heads. My max hunting range is 35 yds. Arrow speed 243fps.
My thing with the argument is broadhead flight. I’ve had great shooting setups with field points but you screw a broadhead on and it hits all over the place. Troys way with a high FOC and perfect bare shaft makes Broadheads tune right up with them with no adjustment. Both of these guys deserve a platform in there ways of finding perfect arrow flight. I understand John’s frustration when he goes to tac events and see guys with 600+ grain arrow’s because Troy said this works. If I shot tac tomorrow I’d probably shoot for a 400 grain arrow just to have the flatter trajectory. If I’m hunting 500-575 with a good coc will get the job done everytime. Keep tinkering
Troy's method is the long way around with a slightly less desirable outcome that ultimately ends up limiting your options. They caveat to that though is the average guy with out tools and advanced level tuning knowledge can get a pretty lethal and accurate set-up where big fixed and target points hit the same spot at distance.
John says don't bother trust the shop. The shops wont do dick for you where I'm from. Before ranch fairy it was way more common to see guys hunting with mismatched arrows and dull broadheads. He is an asset to the bow hunting community. Now could RF dial it back a bit with the crazy heavy stuff yes I think so.
I fail to see how it is the long way around.
Seems like the short way when you can do it yourself, from your house. @@cjr4497
@cjr4497 if you own full service bow shop, with level 3 tuning abilities or above then it's the long way around. If you don't have squat other than a arrow building set up ranch fairy is your man. Today's bow companies spend big money on R and D so that we can tune the bow to any arrow within reason. Again you need to understand the tech and have tools like a press, vice, draw board, hand tools ect. Ranch fairys method is actually just traditional bow tuning method. On a long bow all there is to work with is a stick and a string. Short of changing brace height the arrow is all we have so we tune the arrow to the bow. A Long drawn out process of shooting, cutting arrows, adding weights, shooting again over and over until you land on that one arrow that's money. Doing that with a modern compound limits your arrow options and in the end it's still not perfect. Close but not perfect. All over a compound bow there is macro and micro adjustments to achieve perfect arrow flight. Rf method utilizes none of them and simply tunes the bow as If it were a long bow.
@@jhuntley575why are you even archery hunting if you’re not going to get the proper tools to tune your bow in the first place? You’re not a bow hunter. You’re just clowning around. Do it right the first time, and you won’t have to shoot Lincoln logs at animals.
John needs to get off high high horse and research his guests. They are talking the same story, in different languages. Very disappointing...
Ya.. I think I’m like all of us where I enjoy JDs stuff. But, he does come off as dismissive here. And it’s not hard to do 2hrs of research on someone you are interviewing- especially if you’re planning on disagreeing with them.
No, lol, they are not talking the same language.
looks like Ranch fairy got educated....
Ouch… hard to listen to this one. Duds arrogance is bleeding through my speakers… I understand where both men are coming from. Dudley preaches form and and practice until you can shoot tight groups at distance. RF fairly preaches building the best arrow for a pass through… never has he ever said he’s an archery guru… but often acknowledges that 90% aren’t so why not shoot the best set up to kill. Love both guys and will continue to listen to both but wow wasn’t expecting Dudley to patronize RF so badly without even doing some research on his guest. RF never once said his arrow set up was what you should shoot at TAC. And anyone who shows up to TAC with a RF arrow isn’t doing their archery due diligence either.
Shut it off half way though… naively I put it back on hoping it would get better… it didn’t. The stupid thing is Dud is saying the exact same thing… and his arrogance isn’t even listening to RF… Dudley has 80 bows to shoot and says he fine tuned arrows to fly right for the bow… 90 percent of people have one bow… and RF says find the arrow configuration that flies well for your bow all while making it as lethal as possible
Most archery shops treat average Joes like absolute idiots, just like Dudley it's treating Troy.
That's why people don't like going to them. No one wants to be talked to like that, and no one wants to be dismissed.
How do you not see that you (Dudley) are pushing people away!?
Dudley was way too dismissive in this whole podcast. I feel like he brought Troy on to show how he was wrong. I also feel like he treated him like a child. Troy's an average guy trying to help everybody out that doesn't have elite skills when it comes to a bow. I felt like Jon's two-minute introduction to the podcast set everybody up to not believe in Troy and think that he was an amateur. Troy said in the interview he's been bowhunting his whole life. I feel like a lot of John's content is not for the average guy at all
The off phone call intro was kinda cheap shot. Think of how different the conversation would have went if he would have said that intro while they were both on camera.
Totally agree - the intro was plain rude and disappointing. Troy may not be a world class shooter - that includes 99.9% of us - but he has some very scientific dudes (Ashby found and Barnett) and equipment that are sound science. He just acts like a fool at times - don't underestimate him.
The problem with RF, is his “help” isn’t helping anyone, and causing more harm than good. That’s Dudley’s whole point. Guys are going backwards instead of progressing, due to believing his misinformation.
@@matthewlittle9492 if you dont understand physics it is probably not for you. Troy no longer tries catering for those you cannot understand. For the rest - it makes perfect sense.
Dudley has forgotten more about archery, shot placement, arrows, bow setup and so on than RF has ever learned. To say the guy who is the premier expert on all things compound bow related is dismissive of a guy who admits to having bad form...that's not accurate.
Two of my favorite archery people talking about something I love doing. Great job guys!
I actually think Troy handled this conversation really well. He figured out very early on that it wasn't going to be a very productive back and forth. Dudley isn't wrong that repeatable accuracy is extremely important. The problem is that he came into the discussion seeming like he had the assumption that Troy was arguing the opposite...which he isn't. The fact is..what they are talking about isn't mutually exclusive. Dudley seemed to assume that Troy was saying that you shouldn't practice or properly set your bow up...which he's not. Dudley seemed to completely miss the point of the things Troy was talking about, he sounded like a coach trying to argue with a science teacher. He obviously knows a ton about his field...problem is that's not what troy is arguing.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt". I believe the saying also applies to arrogance. Dud just removed all doubt to a huge audience. No one will call him a fool, but an arrogant man he is. He comes off as a humble "servant" of the archery community untill his empire and relevence are threatened. Pretty disappointed at that display of arrogance and disrespect. Not a chance I would have let him say my little brain can't comprehend the info or call me a squirrel because I dont subscribe to nock on philosophy. I can scratch John off the list of people I hope to meet.
WELL SAID!
Very well put, on the flip side Troy as a person really gained a ton of respect!
Dud was really trying to help. I don’t know where you got this from.
Dudley is addressing a problem he sees with shooters that show up in huge numbers to TAC and other venues. He is not trying to deny heavy arrows, he's trying to clarify points.
RF either misspoke a few times or changed his story like with the 400 spine arrow he claimed he used, blamed it on bow shops (I agree there), and then said he'd never use a 400 spine. It's things like that. I've used RF's videos to help me with arrow tuning a little. I've used MFJJ on bow and arrow tuning and I use Dudley for everything archery.
This one statement from Ranch Fairy will always have me be a fan!
"Sharp Broadheads first and camo undies last"
The very idea Dudley didn’t watch any of Troy’s videos shows his disrespect for Troy and the fact that he is not an industry insider but is making waves in the industry. He’s a pro archer and an amateur interviewer. He took two hours of Troy’s time to try to embarrass and lecture him and didn’t take the time to watch any of his stuff. He would have realized they have some common ground if he had. Just absolutely unprofessional. I do think Troy can send people to Dudley’s site to get form lessons no doubt. But Dudley missed the point about those of us who shot light arrows that bounced of or didn’t kill deer that were hit in a good place.
The title says finding common ground but that was obviously not the case. Lost alot of respect for John and sad to see this end up like this. You guys had the chance to set the record straight and teach the community what it takes to make arrows extremly lethal arrows and instead through that aside to scold ranch fairy for his “bad form” and then because he doesn’t shoot well enough ALL OF HIS DATA is essentially invalid. John you really missed it on this one and thats just too damn bad.
Plus the physics they explain when they talk about the testing on RF’s channel. The data. The formulas. And measurable results. But Dudley can’t be bothered to even look at it. You can’t preach ethics and worry about someone else’s content when you brag about killing a deer with a 17lbs bow or 100+ yard shots that most hunters have no business taking.
@@Alex-iv4eeI don’t even agree with Troy on most things but I think it’s clear Dud brought him on to emasculate him and discredit his argument. Troy’s brand took a big hit imo.
@@richstafford1245 it will be interesting to see what RF puts out next. Dudley’s whole series was obviously targeted for that purpose. I have watched a lot of RFs content and have found it helpful. I’ve even purchased a RF test kit to try different things out. For those that don’t know his kit is 4 arrows with accessories for bare shaft tuning/testing. Under $100. How much do you think all those arrows would have cost to do the kind of testing Dudley would approve of??? I’ve never heard RF say anything about you shouldn’t practice with your bow or that accuracy isn’t important. RF seems to get credited with a lot of things that he doesn’t say
@@richstafford1245my exact thoughts. The loyalists will stay with him but this was crushing for his brand. Having dud just laugh at him and say he sucks was uncomfortable to watch...
@@Dinkslayer681 He really did clown Troy hard. The only way it would have been worse is if Dudley would have pulled Troy’s under wear up over his head atomic wedgie style. The level of arrogance was astounding. Dudley could not have come off worse. No way I can continue to follow him or buy his product’s after he showed his true colors in this podcast . Straight bully arrogant know it all…
I watch both of these guys channel to learn but not a fan of John's disrespectful tone towards Troy
I knew this was coming. He sort of did it to Iron Will Bill.
I didn't hear it honestly. It has to be tough for a guy who has made his entire career shooting to be told he's wrong by an amateur. I thought he held his composure quite well. If he had actually watched Troy's videos I'd think he would have lit into him.
@@cjr4497Iron Will Bill has the best advice for arrows TBH
All I know as I’ve been bow hunting 30+ years and I had mixed results until I started using a heavier arrows with a good cut on contact fix blade. There’s definitely something to be said shooting a heavier arrow with structural integrity and sharp Quality fix blade .I also used to shoot expendables and the deer would just act like they got hit in the ass with a 2 x 4 and takeoff now I shoot them they jump maybe take a few steps look around walk a little bit and fall over dead so there’s definitely some merit to what Troy is talking about I’m no professional archer but I have experienced these things! Also I think it’s kind of disrespectful the way he talks to people and talks down on them you can be respectful and disagree at the same time! Also a little ego and bragging is annoying!
I didn’t hear any disrespect. Where was that? I’ll go back to that part
I feel like Dud wasn’t open to even considering other points of view. It was an entire episode of not talking about the right things and trying to convince Troy that he’s not experienced enough to preach the results of his studies
Dr Ed Ashby and Barnett have a life time of experience - maybe not world class shooters but when it comes to physics and trajectory aerodynamics etc. they lack nothing.
There's proof that ed and ranch fairy are right. There's proof of people's success and lethality increasing due to Ed's studies. That's what troy was trying to get at but, I agree, I feel like JD just wasn't going to hear it. He seems to be more my way or the highway approach.
I think if the two of them, mainly Dud, could truly find common ground by learning and supporting each other’s methods then they could be an unstoppable force in archery.
I have a killer set and learned alot from u bolth but Troy's method is not wrong and worked great for me
The question RF should have asked was….. if your way works and bow shops are ssssooo good, why has RF taken off? RF wouldn’t be needed if bow shops were doing what was best for customers and not churning out equipment for money.
Agreed
Would of circled that question just like the rest.
This
What troys doing is bullshit too though. It’s still not the right way. He’s using stupid-heavy arrows to compensate for tuning issue. If you’re bow hunting, and have done so for over five years, and you still don’t even fletch and cut your own arrows, the only person to blame is the person in the mirror.
@@progradepainting3755
You are missing the point and going overboard with the heavy stuff. 550 isn't that heavy. That's middle ground. There is no way around the science and on meat performance. 400grain with expandables don't cut it. ( pun intended) with a tuned bow there are 10,000 or more arrows shot on video in ribs and don't get pass throughs. That horrible and should tell you something is wrong with your system. Ppl have started tinkering and have found a better way. You being mad at that is insane. Do what works for you. But stop telling ppl what they are doing is working better. We have all shot that shit. And proved it fails. This system is highly more effective at killing. 🤷🏼♂️
Yup... well, this interview proved a couple things to me.
1. Troy is a real class act. He said multiple times during this podcast that he doesn't know how to build his bow, nor has he had any training on form while shooting... but even with the constant snide remarks from Dudley, he keeps objective and let's it roll right off.
2. Dudley is a very small man. In not talking about stature. A disclaimer at the beginning of the video, constantly jabbing at his form and saying "I don't know you" etc. Everything he has done was intended to discredit Troy and under value him.
I think Dudley hurt himself, and his cause on this one. Pretty distasteful to have a guest on, and insult him. The only intelligent conversation i saw in this podcast came from the ranch fairy.
Yup i have hunted for almost 30 years Troys channel gave me the information I desperately wanted after seeing stuck deer over the years. So this year will be the first year I attempt to harvest a deer with a bow & crossbow (my 10 yo choice). The last time I was going to bow hunt carbon arrows were starting to hit the market I went to my local archery shop to buy some and ran into a guy like Dudley that was very condescending telling me "If you dont go carbon you can never take a shot past 20 yards" at that time I was using some cheap Easton aluminum arrows probably close to 600gr tw and I was consistently grouping about 4 inches at 40 yards. So yeah even though Troy doesnt have perfect form or could care-less what you are shooting the fact that he brought to light Dr. Ashbys study to me that I was actually able to see research on FOC rather than some marketing video from a manufacturer. I also love the fact that RF stepped down from the board because he is working with tuffhead on his own broadhead now thats class right there.
If Dudley wants to bring more people to archery he made a terrible impression on me and im nobody but considering all the comments here I think he did more harm than good.
The thing about it all, is Dudley is so out of touch with his demographic. Sure, nobody can deny that he is a professional competitive level archer. Of course he is going to have some of those people watch and follow him. But 95% of the people that follow him and buy the products he endorses are just average level archers that hunt on weekends, or shoot their bows as their daily life allows.
What Troy promotes is first and foremost, all of the things that any other "pro" like Dudley also promotes. Bow in tune, form repeatable... at that point Troy's process ACTUALLY GETS YOU BETTER ARROW FLIGHT. Start from 32" carbon, shoot it bareshaft, playing with point weight. Keep cutting a bit off each time of the carbon UNTIL your arrow enters the target straight. Just like you would do to "tune" a stick bow by manipulating your arrow to match it to the bow. Then do all the things most pro level competitive archer does. Nock tune, (through paper or into a target) to get perfect and efficient arrow flight. Don't just go to a chart and accept what the piece of paper tells you to shoot.
Dudley coming across as the “do you even lift bro” guy in this one. I mean yeah he knows a lot but to come on here and tell Troy he’s not even good enough at archery to have an opinion just isn’t a good look. That said both of these gentlemen do good things for archery but with two different approaches. Troy dares people to experiment and find out what works best for them and Dudley has a more of a my way or the highway approach.
Good information, rough delivery on this one. John used the tactic of belittling Troy's experience and accolades to make his point...rather than addressing the point. This one made me feel icky. Again, fine information..but this one did not achieve the goal of uniting the archery community. Do better.
What about, now hear me out on this, doing both? Pefectly tuned bow with perfect shot mechanics, and a perfectly tuned adult arrow. Seems like that could be a pretty lethal combination.
The I know nothing about you but I’m better than you attitude is extremely off putting
Agreed
I want to see you 2 go to the ranch and hunt hog with your current setups and see the results on each one from each setup. I think it would be fun for you guys, I think both of yous could learn from each other honestly.
Think Dudley would let them post it if he got shit penetration and lost a big boar? I would love it if he did let them show it.
That would be cool. BUT, He won't. Heck, he wont even address the comments.
@motivationnow7821 I've had both respond to my comments before. Think Troy is one of the most misquoted person on TH-cam when it comes to archery. I dont shot heavy arrows but he has good points. And if your shooting low poundage and/or short draw length it will help tremendously.
Like alot of people say he tells people to shoot 650gr + arrows he doesn't, he mentions that's the bone breaking threshold and will help but also go to thw heaviest arrow that your still achieving perfect arrow flight and a trajectory your cool with. I've heard him suggest 550gr alot which guess what JD arrows weigh? Right around that lol. They need to meet up and spend a week together and I think both can learn from each other, Troy would learn more obviously but I think JD could actually get a better grasp on what Troy's talking about as he's never watched his videos and he's trying to bash him on some of the stuff that's what kills me. If your going to do a podcast on someone that you know nothing about them at least spend a few hours watching some of their videos, that actually kinda mad me a little disappointed in JD here he's going of what other people have told him and not what he's actually heard come out his mouth, very unprofessional in my opinion
This is a really good idea! They should put their money where their mouths are! I think shooting together would help them understand eachother too.
No way John could come off his high horse to do that. Also ranch said he would come to John for lessons.
Not impressed with how Dudley talking down to Troy. Not cool man. You're a massively respected person in the archery and hunting
community and this made you look stuck up. Do better man.
Dudly what Troy is doing is proving what hes saying. And Ive found he is correct and thats why people are following him. They too find what hes saying works. Not everybody shoots a 10k dollar bow at 10k fps at 5k yds at elephants like you. Some of us shoot 55lb bows at 240 fps at 40 yds.. And heavier arrows with cut on contact works much better than what archery shops were selling me on. THANK YOU TROY!!!! You made archery much more deadly and eye opening.
So it only took a little over 2 hours for Troy to finally say what anyone paying attention already understood - they’re both doing the same thing differently.
If Dudley could set his ego aside he’d realize they share way more common ground than differences - they both want properly setup bows with perfect arrow flight. This was a bad look for John and it wasn’t at all a conversation amongst piers, John was coming from a place of assumed authority over a subordinate. Kudo’s to Troy for sitting there and taking it.
If Troy is tuning his bow and achieving oerfect arrow flight,,, WTF DOES IT MATTER IF HE HAS PERFECT DUDLEY APPROVED FORM??
Omg there’s more than one way to skin a cat. Everyone will choose their own way. Learned from both of you and respect you both. Oh and Troy is not weird and I understand everything he says. It’s all so simple and it works.
Respect to both parties for jumping on.
Can't wait to see the video of Troy learning to shoot!! Much respect to John and Troy for the things they do to try and make archery better. Really hope they stay in contact and get a better understanding of each other's process. Between the two and (maybe a few others) i think they could come up with a solid "gospel" on arrow building/ tuning, as well as dialing the bow for a bullet proof set up.
Tough episode to get through. I had to come back to it 5 times to get through it. Very frustrating to listen to.
I took school of nock and got my form dialed! Then I took troys information and now I shoot darts! Information from both guys and feel more confident then ever! Blowing through hogs, deer, and elk out to 80
I feel like Dudley came off arrogant and Troy was very humble. If your going to have someone on your show you could do basic background info about your guest and make them feel welcomed. I shoot what Dudley preaches and he could have came off allot better to someone who is willing to learn. I do get the frustration of dud though after what I’m sure he saw at TAC. Most people haven’t been in the industry for decades and have thousands of dollars of tech equipment in their house to tinker and hundreds of arrows to find a perfect set up and I think he forgets that. Most shops are not good like he’s saying especially to someone new they get them in and out. Unless you know what to ask shops for 98% won’t do it like check cam lean help you yoke tune ect. It’s the industry’s fault people have flocked to a guy whose basically showing you how to Stone Age tune a bow because most of the shops suck.
This episode made the Ranch Fairy look like a a common guy that knows his stuff. Made John look like a know it all that has his mind sett and that is never gonna change. Mad respect to Troy!!!!
Dudley is condescending. Hadn’t even tried to understand what Troy is trying to do. All he is interested in is telling everyone how they have to be perfect archers (target) and how good he is. Everyone has to build arrows that will shoot out to 100yds+. And most people don’t have the time to practise every day and shoot 100+ arrows everyday. Troy is not interested in 100 yards. He wants an effective arrow for the average guy to kills things to 30yards. That’s all. Anyone who would take a Ranch Fairy arrow to a TAC event obviously has missed the point all together.
Dudley's arrogant and uncharitable personality overshadows his vast archery wisdom. I hope that he and Troy do some shooting and hunting together soon. I think they will be able to find common ground and that Troy will distill Dudley's wisdom into a more digestible form for his viewers.
Whaaaa!
As this is my first introduction to Dudley I'm not sure I will ever be able to respect him enough to ever utilize his content. Definitely respect the example of a Troy who showed a lot of patience in light of such an ignorant elitest.
Your loss then. John is a way bigger wealth of archery than Troy could ever be.
The only thing I wholeheartedly disagree with Jon about is that it is okay to one lung game. He can hammer RF all he wants about "irresponsible" arrow tunes making people worse shots beyond hunting distances, but he is just as much if not more irresponsible to promote one lung hits. I don't give a damn how much he has killed. You don't always lose them but you do sometimes. That is a well known fact. You also don't always get blood from one big ass hole high in a deer's chest. No blood equals lost deer a lot, especially from a tree stand. We don't all have access to tracking dogs and outfitters to find our animals. This is where I wish the conversation went. For John with his 300 win mag power he can get away with a 2" mechanical in most situations. Guys will hear this message, follow it, and then not understand why they lost a deer even though they did what Dudley said. This is the same beef he has with Troy.
Yup that was extremely ignorant to think one lunging is okay, one lung hits are where things get sketchy. There’s a big tracking dog community in Florida and whenever they inquire someone calling for a track during archery season they ask what type of broadhead and did you pass through. Do with that as you may. Those dog guys always want to see a pass through.
I'm getting really exhausted with all the archery disagreements lol. Figure out what works best for what your trying to do and go with that. Practice as much as you can and don't get too sucked into other people's opinions. Take whatever relevant information you can from people you trust and build off that but there's no way you can convince me that any of these guys is 100% right all the time.
Man… this one was tough to watch. Even being a very proficient archery hunter, I’ve always subscribed to Dudley and the Nock on TH-cam. I’ve watched the School of Nock to its entirety and have learned MANY valuable things from him. That being said, I lost a lot of respect for John after this podcast. RF is eccentric and wild and believes in what he teaches or talks about. The countless personal attacks from John, “your squirrel brain,” c’mon man… that’s ridiculous. Props to Troy for keepin his head straight and staying respectful. Huge kudos. Also, my 80#, 30.5” draw with Black Eagle, 250 spine, 650 grn total weight with 125 grain iron will single bevel, 4 fletch max hunters, fly perfectly true out to 100 (I don’t hunt this distance) but who doesn’t like throwing some bombs to test your skills?!
Dudley I think you put entirely too much faith in local archery shops. Before the newest one in my town that just opened up we were left with garbage. I mean if you didn't want a hoyt they didn't even care if you needed help. And even if you had a hoyt they couldn't accurately help. I am talking so bad they would tie d loop knots with and leave a tag end to tie a stopper knot on it and then burn a mushroom on the stopper knot.
Yes man. I gotta drive 30 minutes to a guy in his garage, doing it as a side business and half the time he acts like I’m bothering him. He is competent but it’s just a hassle all around. Thought about getting my own press as a workaround but they’re too much
I've followed both of these guys for a while now, and they both have given a ton to the archery industry. Both of them have helped me tremendously! And, kudos to both for giving so much back!
I know a lot of people are on Dudley's ass about talking down to Troy, but Troy will be the 1st one to tell anyone that his archery fundamentals are horrible and he is not a bow technician. All Dudley wants is for everyone to be the best archer they can possibly be and to be fundamentally sound. This is what he preaches day in and day out and I believe that he feels this is the best way to be the most lethal hunter. And, honestly, he isn't wrong.
Troy, on the other hand, knows he and others have limitations and he's working his ass off to try to help as many people as he can become the most lethal they can be. He's has 1st hand experience with what is lethal and what isn't on one of the toughest and cagiest animals in North America.
At the end of the day, Dudley is right...Chase Groups, not Ghosts. And, if anyone really listens to Troy, he isn't wrong either. They just have different methods of getting to the same place.
I will say, since I started shooting Traditional Equipment, Troy's teachings have been an absolute lifesaver in getting my arrows tuned perfectly.
cant disagree more, Dudley is wrong. IF you listen to the pod cast, he literally tells troy, I have a bucket of arrows with different spines and different weights and I shoot them and let the bow tell me what it wants.....ummmm hello thats exactly what troy has been doing as well. Dudely dropped the ball big time.
THanks for all you do! Much better archer because of your content
Glad to hear it!
@@nockonarcheryLOL IDK if it is all the epoxy building these arrows into the AM, but when is round II 😂😂😂
John Dudley: “Come on my show so I can tell you how little I know about you and how wrong I think you are even though I have never seen anything you’ve made.”
I don’t even like RF’s content but I was so angry listening to John talk shit on him the whole time, under the guise of trying to become his freaking Yoda or something. Yuck. Cringe AF and Dudley has lost a fan he could have earned with a respectful manner.
Dudley, this was not a good look for you. You start off by making fun of the Troy’s character name, telling him you actually don’t know anything about him or his channel repeatedly, telling him that his form sucks, and that he is really doing more harm than good. Even if you don’t agree with him you can be respectful and at least try to understand his point of view. You didn’t do anything to research his stuff beforehand and talked down to him the whole time. Respect to Troy for keeping his cool and responding professionally. I was hoping that this would be a good honest conversation and I was disappointed
Dudley you’re the man, I have a signed nockon bitz jig and shoot a nock2it. I lost some respect for you watching this interview. You were pretty condescending and didn’t do your homework on Troy. You interviewed Bill with total respect.
Absolutely agree. There was a MASSIVE difference in the atmosphere of the entire podcast.
I’d like to know why.
I dont feel like Dudley had much of an argument. Cool podcast though
I could have argued his point better.
Dudley,
You talk about how you starting as a young guy and working through different setup to get to where you are at and what you like, but then you tear Troy down for doing the very same thing. I believe you are a great archery, but you set yourself on a pedestal and discount everyone else.
The new series you are working on seems to just be episode after episode of tearing others down to try to elevate yourself. I have followed you for years but now see you for what you really are, a self absorbed narcissist that is pushing product he is paid to push.
At some point we all have the same goal: hunt legally and ethically and enjoy the sport with our family and friends. People like you have the bully pulpit and should be using it to bring the industry and community together and not tearing it down.
Like him or not Troy is a great guy and is just talking about things that work for him and he has data behind what he is talking about. Ashby has data behind what he suggests (white papers). You suggested a ton of great archers that have experience but haven’t shown the data or the baseline they used. Without data, it’s all opinion and in some cases just bullshit! Give Troy credit for his thoughts and data, agree with it or not.
In short, show some respect. Keep helping those you can but until you can walk on water and feed the masses with fish and bread, shut up unless you have something positive to say.
Been waiting for this podcast since the first arrow video!
Hope you enjoyed it!
You were so condescending that I had to unsubscribe. I will look up your tuning info when I need it, you are great on that subject. You keep taking what Troy says about hunting arrows and trying to apply it to target archery and super long range shooting. That is not what Troy is talking about. Even your write up assumes Troy and Dr. Ashby are wrong. @@nockonarchery
@@nockonarcheryNo. You were disrespectful and rude. 99% of the comment say the same.
Dudley you missed it at 1:43:00. The great’s instantly rise to the top where as an average guy never gets to that level. The average guy should never shoot past 35 yards and should go heavy to compensate for average hit. Which is plan B and is everything Troy speaks to.
100%
Facts!
What you don't get though is your way more likely to pull a shot back in the guys and the plan B then would be way better with a big cut mechanical. What are the chances you hit that little shoulder bone compared to liver/ gut?
@@jhuntley575 not if you cheat shoulder when you aim. People used to avoid the guts at all costs back in the day. Now, they aim liver and guts. Then you have John here praising the virtues of one lung hits, showing his ignorance or arrogance. I couldn't tell.
@@jhuntley575go watch Waddell bounce a big cut mechanical off a rib on a shot you would have thought was perfect then tell me big cut mechanicals are safe off the shoulder
I’ve watched you and Troy a lot , I thought maybe you should have watched Troy’s videos before the podcast , I did ! He has allways said to work for good arrow flight ( getting as much weight up front as you can) his thinking is to kill things with out blood trailing them to death , a lot of people watch one video, or watch where Ashby say the bone breaking thresh hold is 630 grain arrow , but doesn’t tell them that’s what they should shoot , on the contrary they both say perfect arrow flight is the most important thing, not foc. Troy as made more videos about razor sharp broad heads and what happens when the broad head gets inside the animal than how much the arrow weighs, I agree with both of you to a degree, but know to sort out what is right for me. Thanks for bringing him on your podcast , it shows what kind of a man he is ,,,,,,,
Both of these guys are great but Dudley should have researched what Troy is really about. Troy is right. Bowshops push rage broadheads and 400 spine arrows. A tech guy at a major bow manufacturer told me to shoot 400 spines and 100 grain heads. I'm surprised we are having to debate whether a pass through is a good thing.
It’s so easy to tell the one with the humility.
FINALLY!!! Two of my favorite people in archery!!
I really enjoy Troy and his RF show !!
Wow. After watching John's recent videos obliquely referencing Troy's FOC ideas, rather than talking over him, he has a podcast with Troy. Amazing.
What surprises me the most is that comments haven’t been disabled yet!
I've only watched a bit of Dudley's stuff because I always found him a bit too arrogant and condescending even when just talking to a camera... Despite knowing he worth listening to I couldn't bring myself to do it. Came to the comments to see if everyone else felt the way I did about the interview. Glad I wasn't alone.
I felt like so many of his points about Troy "doing more harm that good" were based off grapevine rumors he's heard about Troy. If you're actually listening to all of Troy's messaging you know he doesn't say heavier is always better. There are breaking points that vary from setup to setup when it's too heavy and too FOC laden.
Troy would bring in points (like that the heavier arrow has more KE at 60 than the light arrow at 0 yards) and Dudley changed the subject essentially.
Ultimately I feel like they are both preaching the same thing. Accuracy is paramount. A gut shot is bad no matter the arrow. Troy has said if you're aiming off shoulder a mechanical will be better because it's all soft tissue and you want more cut since penetration will happen either way. Dudley said he prefers to aim back a bit. Same thing. Troy just provides alternatives thoughts to help people prepare for eventualities of hitting harder stuff and for some reason John is opposed to that.....? I don't think he would be as opposed or as jerky looking if he actually watched Troy's stuff and understand his message before telling him it's wrong.