For a lot of reasons, I can see these Midas StageCONNECT boxes are going to be popular for a lot of uses. And one of them is definitely packaging the DB4816-O with an XR18 for a digital splitter in what can be a very compact IEM rack. But that said, they are not the same as an analog splitter. An analog splitter is a pretty simple thing and it just works. It doesn't require anything from either the FOH or Mon consoles. The StageCONNECT box is digital and it requires a power source (power supply is included, you just have to remember to plug it in 🙃), and it needs an interface like the monitor console (XR18 or MR18 in this case). That means there are options, and mistakes that can be made. Both in routing and operation. So that is what this video addresses. Trying to make sure if someone want to go down this path they do it correctly so both the band and the FOH provider can interface with each other and have a smooth gig. And where things work like everyone expects, and hopefully understands. As long as the band does things correctly on their end with their IEM rig with the StageCONNECT box in place, the venue/event provider should have no issues and it should be pretty much seamless and operate like an analog splitter as far as they are concerned. EXCEPT... the DN4816-O is line level out versus mic level like FOH would see from an analog splitter. But any FOH person that understands how to watch the input meters and set input gain should have no issue with that. Likes and subscribes always appreciated. Feel free to share the video link. Leave your questions and comments below. 🚀🎤Sweetwater Affiliate Link: sweetwater.sjv.io/PybnYY 🚀🚀Items on Sweetwater from video: Midas DN4816-O on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/LXVA0Y Behringer XR18 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/baNBrm Midas MR18 Digital Mixer on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/rQDKqd Gator Shallow 4sp rack on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/k0eD4d Behringer Wing on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/zNEZyr Digital Mixers (Midas/Behringer/etc) on Sweetwater- sweetwater.sjv.io/g16Eng 📦Amazon Affiliate Links: Proreck Analog Splitter- amzn.to/4fhnA66 Elite Core Fan to Fan Snake Cable- amzn.to/3YnPSWR Cat 8 Ethernet Cable- amzn.to/3WyJaM6 Items Used to Make This Video- PROAR 414 XLR Microphone and accessories: amzn.to/4aCrUK4 Sony ZV1 Camera on Amazon: amzn.to/3z9MHny Canon M50 MkII Camera on Amazon: amzn.to/3z6c8X5 “As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.” "I earn from affiliate link purchases" Items purchased thru affiliate links come at no additional cost to viewers, but these purchases can earn the channel commissions. ----------------- 🎚✨ Support via Patreon: www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio 🎶🎶Channel Facebook Page: facebook.com/groups/livesoundproduction
This video has given me other ideas. I also think this will be a popular option. And also (and if I'm not wrong) adding the Klark Teknik DN4816U to the equation, would allow for a church (as an example) that does not require a greater number of physical inputs, but does require a greater number of outputs/mixes, to continue having a USB option for recording/transmission on another computer, while using a first computer dedicated to making additional mixes (received by the console's USB), which will have their output buses through the Midas DN4816-O for the respective monitoring. The potential is in the USB/Ultranet combination.
I like the simplicity, but I don't like having to rely on the monitor console for proper gain structure, nor do I want FOH going down if the monitor console does. I'm using simple, inexpensive passive splitters in three of the bands I work with. We've been using them for a few years without any issues. Takes a bit more space, but it's simple, and it works.
The analog tap looks like it would be a great way to send a "copy" of all the inputs to a separate mix team like a broadcast crew who are preparing a mix for livestream consumption. they can just patch in from the midas box to their own mixer. Thats an alternative to giving them access to your mixer so they can build their own aux mix.
We have a small studio where we use this setup to record and playback digitally with the X18, and use the 16 outputs with a snake to a physical mixing desk. So we have best of both worlds. We record to the laptop, but have it simultanously on our mixing desk so we have physical faders and the use of outboard gear. We then bounce the mixes to input 17-18 on the X18 back to the laptop when finished
We also use XR18 and DN4816-O for our band as IEM rig. But it happened several times that the FOH sound engineer reported that the signal from DN4816-O is too hot when I set the gain to average (and recommended) -18dB on XR18. So our solution is to set the gains to -30dB. Of course, this results in a lower signal-to-sum ratio, but it's still imperceptible for live playing. Another problem that gave us quite a hard time was occasional loud noise on some output channels on the DN4816-O. Eventually we found out on reddit that it was probably a bad masterclock synchronization. The solution is simple - turn on DN4816-O after XR18 is fully up and running.
I'd say the FOH person didn't know what they were doing if they thought the signal was too hot and couldn't work with it. Assuming your gains are as you say (averaging -18dBFS) then the FOH should have plenty of room to adjust the gains on the FOH console to compensate for the line level outputs of the Midas box. You're sending them line level signals, but any modern FOH console should be capable of dealing with line level signals. It's simply hotter than they expected is what it probably was and for whatever reason they didn't understand that and thought something was wrong. I'd just tell them it's a line level signal, don't expect mic level like a normal splitter, and to adjust their gains accordingly. It's really no different than when a band gives the house console a L-R feed and that goes into a couple of channels of the house console to feed the FOH mix. Exactly the same scenario as far as gain adjustment goes on the house console. If it was me, I wouldn't undo my proper console gain to deal with a mistaken FOH tech... But I get it, and sometimes it's just easier to avoid the hassle than deal with the headache.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I had the same thoughts, but just in my mind 😁 We even sent a techrider in advance, where it is literally written that all our outputs for FOH are line levels. But they never read it... We heard always during soundcheck "Set the signal lower, I am on minimum and it is stil clipping!!!". WTF, he never had a keyboard/guitar multi-effect plugged in or what??? 🙃😄
I'll stick with the analogue system that your earlier videos helped me build using the Behringer 8 way splitters. The only downside is the bulk and occasionally a link switch might get depressed.
I'm back, I could use this to run ultra net outputs from my X32 to my XR18 channel inputs and use the XR18 for a dedicated in ear box using the 6 sends plus L & R giving me 8 in ear options. (not using stereo in ears since the stage is 100% mono) This way I can EQ, add compression to the in ears to make them sound better.
I hadn't thought about it, but I see no reason it couldn't be used exactly like described in this video. As long as you just need 16 channels split to FOH, it should work fine. The X32/M32 ecosystem stuff is limited to 16 outputs on the Ultranet/P16 routing... just like the XR18. But the X32 Rack just has 16 mic mic pre's itself (unless you are connecting to a stage box via AES50) to expand it. And unless you're using the Auxes or USB for additional inputs that would need to split to FOH, the DN4816-O should work just fine in this role.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio is there a way to set up the routing in order to have 16 additional outputs with the x32 rack? Not sure if you've looked into that or if it's even possible to use this as an output extender instead of a splitter so to speak
I don't know if you could stretch it that far or not. I just can't think why it wouldn't work on the X32 Rack to at least get you the full 16 balanced outputs of the full-sized console. You can route the buses to the Ultranet outputs so I'm not sure there'd be more to it than that to at least get that far. I don't have a Behringer Rack but I do have an M32R. So I'll have to try this on there and see if there are some possibilities I haven't even thought about... (until now ;) ).
@@AlanHamiltonAudio if it works let me know! 😊 I've been having to make do with only 8 outputs so being able to find a cheaper way to get more outputs would be awesome! I could use a stage box but this seems more compact and cheaper if it works! 😂
Thanks! I think for many people, a regular analog splitter will be a better answer. But for some situations where weight and footprint, or being highly portable, are important parts to be considered, it brings an answer to the table. I'm working on some other videos that will have different roles for the DN stuff with different mixers. Like expanding the output count on an X32Rack or M32R... Still using Ultranet. Or via StageCONNECT connections and doing the same on the Wing. Plus, in the case of the Wing, some models of StageCONNECT boxes allow line level INPUTS to be added to the Wing.
When I mentioned a loss of power, I was thinking more console failure. But you're correct that using a UPS is always a good idea and for a kicked out or loose plug, a UPS can keep things going. Assuming someone sees that the UPS battery has kicked in and gets the problem resolved before the battery goes dead ;)
@@AlanHamiltonAudio ah yes, in that case the only solution would be a console with dual PSUs like a Pro2. But that's a different ballgame haha. I definitely recommend a UPS for gigs, especially outdoor shows where power could be sketchy!
There are multiple possibilities. 1 channel of the DN can output one channel of the XR18, which is what you'd normally want if you were using it as a splitter (like in a monitor rig) for FOH. But you can also tap each Ultranet output off of the L or R output feed... off of buses... from FX buses... from the USB inputs. Whether there's a good reason to do that is a different question. It's just that the options are there. What you cannot do is go into routing, select an Ultranet output, and then select multiple channels directly to be sent to that output. To get multiple channels to that output on the DN, you'd have to create a subgroup, send/assign the channels to that subgroup (as you would normally do like via the SENDS page), and then in Ultranet routing you'd assign that bus to the Ultranet output you want sent to the DN box. Essentially, the same way you'd do this if you were using a Behringer P16 monitor system and assigned all the drums (for example) to a bus so the musicians could just add a complete drum mix to their monitor mix via one channel rather than do it individually one drum channel at a time. Although, this is more done on something like the X32 where you have 32 mic inputs but only a total of 16 Ultranet outputs. So you have to group some things to get everything you want available in the monitors via P16. That's only a monitor limitation on the P16 eco system though. Not a limitation if you're running monitors off of some of the 16 outputs (as is a normal monitor setup). Usually it's better to let the musicians dial if each individual channel IF that option is physically available to them. If you're using the DN as a mic splitter and the XR18 as a dedicated monitor console, and so there's a different console at FOH, then really for all intents and purposes, you want a 1 to 1 channel patch going to FOH. That way, FOH has complete control of the FOH mix... and the monitor console has complete control of the monitor mix. But, as mentioned in the Cons section of the video... Since the DN is a digital split tied to the XR18, it's taking it's feed AFTER the preamp. So there is some sharing taking place between the two consoles. That's why it's important to get the gain set on the monitor console in this scenario and then leave it alone so FOH can soundcheck and run FOH for the show without any gain changes from the monitor console (because those would impact FOH). Meanwhile, with an analog split, the two consoles don't share anything. So both console operators can make any changes they want and not affect the other's mix.
I play in horn rock band. We use 14 channels. We have 9 monitor mixes. We don't use stage wedges, IEM's only. I would like to use the XR18 as the stage box where everything plugs into the XR18, all the channels are split to FOH, and each musician has his own monitor mix. I can see how this would work with 1 DN4816-O but we would only get 6 busses and 2 mains for the IEM's. That leaves me one short. Is there a way to have a 16 channel splitter, AND an IEM mix for each musician?
Just to check, you need 9 individual mixes? or 9 outputs for mono IEM? What I have read others do is Inputs -> Splitter snake(Long tail to FOH, short to XR18) and that takes care of the splits. Then seeing as it reads like you are wanting to use the 6 aux + 2 mains for outputs but lack one, you could use the DN4816-O for more outputs to feed all 9 IEM's but would still be limited by your buses to 6 individual monitor mixes. One upside is that for 9 IEMs with the 6 aux + 2 mains +16 ultranet you could run stereo with TLS to each monitor if the IEM amp allows it. Disclosure: I understand this on a theoretical level, and have been playing around with IEMs and a XR18, but am nowhere near a pro. I do like tech though and do well with it.
I can see two limitations... #1 Ultralink is only going to get you 16 outs no matter what. So you can't buy two DN boxes and connect them for two different purposes to have more outputs. So if you need 16 splits, you can't add another DN box and then have 16 more outputs. But if you're only using like 15 inputs you'd only need 15 of those outputs on the Midas DN box. So that leaves one unused. #2 You'd still need a way to send to that output. One possible way, in theory, would be to take one of your FX buses and make it a monitor bus. You can make those channel FX sends be pre-fader. And you can go into the Ultranet routing and use that as an output for an FX send. For the FX Rtn I'm sure you'd need to mute it, unassign it from FOH, of fader it down. Otherwise that would be a path for your monitor feed on that FX send to return to the console and then ALSO get sent to Main L-R. So you'd have to give up an FX rack slot to do this. If you're using all 16 channels of the inputs, then the other idea would just be to get a 16 channel analog splitter (or 2-8ch) and then get a DN4816-0 to handle that lone user-hack monitor send. And now that I think about it... You could use a smaller analog split and get the rest of the splits from the DN4816-O. At least up until the point you have assigned all 16 Ultranet outputs 'somewhere'. That second part is getting kind of convoluted though.
We have XR18 and use 6 Aux outs on mixer and 2 more on this device through FX bus. Works fine. But we weren't able to use these FX aux to create stereo mix unlike standart AUX outs on the mixer.
You can assign bus outputs to it... but you have a limited amount of bus sends on the console. So, having more outputs available, but you're still limited by sends available to use them. That said, I think you can use the FX buses to cheat and get more buses that way... change them to pre-fader on the channel strip, route them in the software, unassign the FX Rtn(s) from Main L-R... But you can only get there by sacrificing FX slots.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thanks! I was going to make group channels. So one for vocals, one for guitars, one for drums/percussion etc….Sound logical? That way I’d manage without the fx channels and patch each player to their assigned group. My band has 10 players
bad idea to connect the line input route to ouput like that as IEM it should be mix with different input to the ouput for example we have 18 input and now we have 18 output it should not be one to one mapping. It should be each ouput can be different mixing for the input. for that I will prefer to use link of logic pro . after mixing in logic pro and output as USb then in the mixer just rout the USB to 16 output. then it could be make sense for IEM. IEM should not only listen the original channel audio level. What do you think?
The video is talking about sending each channel to a FOH mixer so the FOH mixer can mix FOH, while the XR18 is dedicated to monitors. The monitor mixes would be derived normally on the XR18 from the XR18's 6 XLR aux outs, and also the L-R would be available for a monitor mix since the XR18 wouldn't be doing FOH mixing duties. So in this scenario, the 18 outputs HAVE to each be split as the video shows to get FOH the same matching inputs that the XR18 is using. So then both consoles have independent control (with the caveat about gain sharing that the video mentions as a con and something to be aware of to make this work). IF you're splitting the inputs to FOH in another way, like an analog splitter, OR you're also mixing FOH from the XR18 then there are other ways to use the Midas DN box attached to the XR18, although there will be limitations on just how far you can stretch the capabilities and compromises to get to any additional monitor mixes. But I didn't really go down this path because it's not really what is being discussed in the video as it talks about using the XR18 as a dedicated monitor console and the need to split the signal to FOH in some form. And how the DN box is an option for that, with mentioned caveats, because a lot of people are looking at it for exactly this purpose.
As a FOH engineer, I definitely don't want the signal coming from one of these. You can get a 32 channel splitter snake with 5 and 15 foot trunks for under $300 (less than the cost of this unit), with none of the cons/headaches mentioned here. A 16 channel splitter for almost half of that.
Well, whether we like it or not, these are coming as they're gaining in popularity. And for some people, that need an ultra compact ear rig, maybe flying with their mixer/splitter combo and earbuds and ears are provided at the venue... or need all the space they can get in a van for equip and people... These are very attractive to them. And for those people, I wanted to make this video so they know what they're getting into and the differences between this and an analog splitter. That's why I spent as much time as I did talking about the tap points, what that means, and still did a summary "Pros and Cons" section at the end. Because otherwise, without that understanding, I'm sure there will be many who will send tap points from deep into the signal chain... Or think nothing of changing gain settings at any point in the night (or each song even). But I get you... I don't know what a band knows and understands about the signal chain when they hand me their tails. But if it's an analog split, I don't have to care either... because analog is just going to work regardless of what they do with their onstage mixes/mixer.
@@Kvelertax There's a link to the Proreck version in the pinned comment here. Amazon has some that are pretty affordable and I see them a lot. These have tails built in to attach to your mixer and send to the FOH snake. Something like these you just buy in the channel count you need. 8ch, 16ch, 24ch, 32ch... In the IEM section of my Amazon storefront you can find link: www.amazon.com/shop/alanhamiltonaudio I don't see any of the snake box with built in tails listed on the Sweetwater site... But they have the 4 and 8 channel splitters like the ART S8 and Behringer splitter listed. These types require you to provide the cabling, but typically have a transformer split and ground (pin 1) lift switches. And you add as many of them as you need to split the amount of mics that you need. IOW... for the 16 channels of the XR18 you'd need 2-8channel splitters. Here is my Sweetwater link to the Behringer rackmount splitter: sweetwater.sjv.io/PyX23Y Some people swear by analog splitters with ISO outs (transformer) but the reality is I've never seen anyone have a problem with a transformerless splitter anyway. And the transformers DO change the sound, but probably not any ways that is truly negative enough to notice.
I wish there was a way to route it out pre-gain. So if any changes were made on stage it wouldn't affect FOH. Way less headaches and things that can go wrong. Not sure why they can't update that through a firmware update.
For a lot of reasons, I can see these Midas StageCONNECT boxes are going to be popular for a lot of uses. And one of them is definitely packaging the DB4816-O with an XR18 for a digital splitter in what can be a very compact IEM rack.
But that said, they are not the same as an analog splitter. An analog splitter is a pretty simple thing and it just works. It doesn't require anything from either the FOH or Mon consoles. The StageCONNECT box is digital and it requires a power source (power supply is included, you just have to remember to plug it in 🙃), and it needs an interface like the monitor console (XR18 or MR18 in this case).
That means there are options, and mistakes that can be made. Both in routing and operation. So that is what this video addresses. Trying to make sure if someone want to go down this path they do it correctly so both the band and the FOH provider can interface with each other and have a smooth gig. And where things work like everyone expects, and hopefully understands.
As long as the band does things correctly on their end with their IEM rig with the StageCONNECT box in place, the venue/event provider should have no issues and it should be pretty much seamless and operate like an analog splitter as far as they are concerned. EXCEPT... the DN4816-O is line level out versus mic level like FOH would see from an analog splitter.
But any FOH person that understands how to watch the input meters and set input gain should have no issue with that.
Likes and subscribes always appreciated. Feel free to share the video link.
Leave your questions and comments below.
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This video has given me other ideas. I also think this will be a popular option. And also (and if I'm not wrong) adding the Klark Teknik DN4816U to the equation, would allow for a church (as an example) that does not require a greater number of physical inputs, but does require a greater number of outputs/mixes, to continue having a USB option for recording/transmission on another computer, while using a first computer dedicated to making additional mixes (received by the console's USB), which will have their output buses through the Midas DN4816-O for the respective monitoring. The potential is in the USB/Ultranet combination.
I like the simplicity, but I don't like having to rely on the monitor console for proper gain structure, nor do I want FOH going down if the monitor console does. I'm using simple, inexpensive passive splitters in three of the bands I work with. We've been using them for a few years without any issues. Takes a bit more space, but it's simple, and it works.
The analog tap looks like it would be a great way to send a "copy" of all the inputs to a separate mix team like a broadcast crew who are preparing a mix for livestream consumption. they can just patch in from the midas box to their own mixer. Thats an alternative to giving them access to your mixer so they can build their own aux mix.
We have a small studio where we use this setup to record and playback digitally with the X18, and use the 16 outputs with a snake to a physical mixing desk. So we have best of both worlds. We record to the laptop, but have it simultanously on our mixing desk so we have physical faders and the use of outboard gear. We then bounce the mixes to input 17-18 on the X18 back to the laptop when finished
We also use XR18 and DN4816-O for our band as IEM rig. But it happened several times that the FOH sound engineer reported that the signal from DN4816-O is too hot when I set the gain to average (and recommended) -18dB on XR18. So our solution is to set the gains to -30dB. Of course, this results in a lower signal-to-sum ratio, but it's still imperceptible for live playing.
Another problem that gave us quite a hard time was occasional loud noise on some output channels on the DN4816-O. Eventually we found out on reddit that it was probably a bad masterclock synchronization. The solution is simple - turn on DN4816-O after XR18 is fully up and running.
I'd say the FOH person didn't know what they were doing if they thought the signal was too hot and couldn't work with it. Assuming your gains are as you say (averaging -18dBFS) then the FOH should have plenty of room to adjust the gains on the FOH console to compensate for the line level outputs of the Midas box.
You're sending them line level signals, but any modern FOH console should be capable of dealing with line level signals.
It's simply hotter than they expected is what it probably was and for whatever reason they didn't understand that and thought something was wrong. I'd just tell them it's a line level signal, don't expect mic level like a normal splitter, and to adjust their gains accordingly.
It's really no different than when a band gives the house console a L-R feed and that goes into a couple of channels of the house console to feed the FOH mix. Exactly the same scenario as far as gain adjustment goes on the house console.
If it was me, I wouldn't undo my proper console gain to deal with a mistaken FOH tech... But I get it, and sometimes it's just easier to avoid the hassle than deal with the headache.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I had the same thoughts, but just in my mind 😁 We even sent a techrider in advance, where it is literally written that all our outputs for FOH are line levels. But they never read it... We heard always during soundcheck "Set the signal lower, I am on minimum and it is stil clipping!!!". WTF, he never had a keyboard/guitar multi-effect plugged in or what??? 🙃😄
I'll stick with the analogue system that your earlier videos helped me build using the Behringer 8 way splitters. The only downside is the bulk and occasionally a link switch might get depressed.
Some people pull those link switch caps off entirely and say they are harder to accidentally get pushed that way.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Great idea. I've had issues with the link switched getting accidentally depressed on the MS8000's.
Great info!
Thank you!
Is it fair to say that another pro for digital is that you avoid ground loop and other RF interference?
Hi Al!
Good afternoon, Hunter! 😀
I'm back, I could use this to run ultra net outputs from my X32 to my XR18 channel inputs and use the XR18 for a dedicated in ear box using the 6 sends plus L & R giving me 8 in ear options.
(not using stereo in ears since the stage is 100% mono) This way I can EQ, add compression to the in ears to make them sound better.
Hello 👋🏼 there, Al!!
Hi Cindy! :)
Has any one experienced phase cancelation between the PA subs and IEMs? To the point where you loose bass frequency in the IEM entirely?
i was here :)
Could this also be used with the x32 rack?
I hadn't thought about it, but I see no reason it couldn't be used exactly like described in this video. As long as you just need 16 channels split to FOH, it should work fine.
The X32/M32 ecosystem stuff is limited to 16 outputs on the Ultranet/P16 routing... just like the XR18. But the X32 Rack just has 16 mic mic pre's itself (unless you are connecting to a stage box via AES50) to expand it. And unless you're using the Auxes or USB for additional inputs that would need to split to FOH, the DN4816-O should work just fine in this role.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio is there a way to set up the routing in order to have 16 additional outputs with the x32 rack? Not sure if you've looked into that or if it's even possible to use this as an output extender instead of a splitter so to speak
I don't know if you could stretch it that far or not.
I just can't think why it wouldn't work on the X32 Rack to at least get you the full 16 balanced outputs of the full-sized console. You can route the buses to the Ultranet outputs so I'm not sure there'd be more to it than that to at least get that far.
I don't have a Behringer Rack but I do have an M32R. So I'll have to try this on there and see if there are some possibilities I haven't even thought about... (until now ;) ).
@@AlanHamiltonAudio if it works let me know! 😊 I've been having to make do with only 8 outputs so being able to find a cheaper way to get more outputs would be awesome! I could use a stage box but this seems more compact and cheaper if it works! 😂
@@styxx0500 Definitely... Heh... You might've just given me a whole new video idea to explore! :)
Thanks for the review. Now I see no use for the DN4816-0 a snake splitter is much more reliable.
Thanks!
I think for many people, a regular analog splitter will be a better answer. But for some situations where weight and footprint, or being highly portable, are important parts to be considered, it brings an answer to the table.
I'm working on some other videos that will have different roles for the DN stuff with different mixers. Like expanding the output count on an X32Rack or M32R... Still using Ultranet.
Or via StageCONNECT connections and doing the same on the Wing. Plus, in the case of the Wing, some models of StageCONNECT boxes allow line level INPUTS to be added to the Wing.
For a fly rig, it’s amazing!
You need to use shielded cat5e, not just "any" ethernet cable. Power issue can be resolved with a UPS.
When I mentioned a loss of power, I was thinking more console failure. But you're correct that using a UPS is always a good idea and for a kicked out or loose plug, a UPS can keep things going. Assuming someone sees that the UPS battery has kicked in and gets the problem resolved before the battery goes dead ;)
@@AlanHamiltonAudio ah yes, in that case the only solution would be a console with dual PSUs like a Pro2. But that's a different ballgame haha. I definitely recommend a UPS for gigs, especially outdoor shows where power could be sketchy!
I can see ground loop issues with this. Splitter is a better way imo
So 1 channel of DB can output a 1 channel from xr18 or multiple channes from xr18?
There are multiple possibilities. 1 channel of the DN can output one channel of the XR18, which is what you'd normally want if you were using it as a splitter (like in a monitor rig) for FOH.
But you can also tap each Ultranet output off of the L or R output feed... off of buses... from FX buses... from the USB inputs.
Whether there's a good reason to do that is a different question. It's just that the options are there.
What you cannot do is go into routing, select an Ultranet output, and then select multiple channels directly to be sent to that output. To get multiple channels to that output on the DN, you'd have to create a subgroup, send/assign the channels to that subgroup (as you would normally do like via the SENDS page), and then in Ultranet routing you'd assign that bus to the Ultranet output you want sent to the DN box.
Essentially, the same way you'd do this if you were using a Behringer P16 monitor system and assigned all the drums (for example) to a bus so the musicians could just add a complete drum mix to their monitor mix via one channel rather than do it individually one drum channel at a time. Although, this is more done on something like the X32 where you have 32 mic inputs but only a total of 16 Ultranet outputs. So you have to group some things to get everything you want available in the monitors via P16. That's only a monitor limitation on the P16 eco system though. Not a limitation if you're running monitors off of some of the 16 outputs (as is a normal monitor setup). Usually it's better to let the musicians dial if each individual channel IF that option is physically available to them.
If you're using the DN as a mic splitter and the XR18 as a dedicated monitor console, and so there's a different console at FOH, then really for all intents and purposes, you want a 1 to 1 channel patch going to FOH. That way, FOH has complete control of the FOH mix... and the monitor console has complete control of the monitor mix. But, as mentioned in the Cons section of the video... Since the DN is a digital split tied to the XR18, it's taking it's feed AFTER the preamp. So there is some sharing taking place between the two consoles. That's why it's important to get the gain set on the monitor console in this scenario and then leave it alone so FOH can soundcheck and run FOH for the show without any gain changes from the monitor console (because those would impact FOH).
Meanwhile, with an analog split, the two consoles don't share anything. So both console operators can make any changes they want and not affect the other's mix.
I play in horn rock band. We use 14 channels. We have 9 monitor mixes. We don't use stage wedges, IEM's only. I would like to use the XR18 as the stage box where everything plugs into the XR18, all the channels are split to FOH, and each musician has his own monitor mix. I can see how this would work with 1 DN4816-O but we would only get 6 busses and 2 mains for the IEM's. That leaves me one short. Is there a way to have a 16 channel splitter, AND an IEM mix for each musician?
Just to check, you need 9 individual mixes? or 9 outputs for mono IEM?
What I have read others do is Inputs -> Splitter snake(Long tail to FOH, short to XR18) and that takes care of the splits.
Then seeing as it reads like you are wanting to use the 6 aux + 2 mains for outputs but lack one, you could use the DN4816-O for more outputs to feed all 9 IEM's but would still be limited by your buses to 6 individual monitor mixes.
One upside is that for 9 IEMs with the 6 aux + 2 mains +16 ultranet you could run stereo with TLS to each monitor if the IEM amp allows it.
Disclosure: I understand this on a theoretical level, and have been playing around with IEMs and a XR18, but am nowhere near a pro. I do like tech though and do well with it.
I can see two limitations... #1 Ultralink is only going to get you 16 outs no matter what. So you can't buy two DN boxes and connect them for two different purposes to have more outputs. So if you need 16 splits, you can't add another DN box and then have 16 more outputs.
But if you're only using like 15 inputs you'd only need 15 of those outputs on the Midas DN box. So that leaves one unused.
#2 You'd still need a way to send to that output. One possible way, in theory, would be to take one of your FX buses and make it a monitor bus. You can make those channel FX sends be pre-fader. And you can go into the Ultranet routing and use that as an output for an FX send. For the FX Rtn I'm sure you'd need to mute it, unassign it from FOH, of fader it down. Otherwise that would be a path for your monitor feed on that FX send to return to the console and then ALSO get sent to Main L-R.
So you'd have to give up an FX rack slot to do this.
If you're using all 16 channels of the inputs, then the other idea would just be to get a 16 channel analog splitter (or 2-8ch) and then get a DN4816-0 to handle that lone user-hack monitor send.
And now that I think about it... You could use a smaller analog split and get the rest of the splits from the DN4816-O. At least up until the point you have assigned all 16 Ultranet outputs 'somewhere'.
That second part is getting kind of convoluted though.
We have XR18 and use 6 Aux outs on mixer and 2 more on this device through FX bus. Works fine. But we weren't able to use these FX aux to create stereo mix unlike standart AUX outs on the mixer.
@@sergeyzh8308 I could see that... No way to link the FX buses like you would for the other channel sends.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Couldn't you use a few P16's for extra IEM outputs?
Can I connect in ear monitor directly in DN4816-O?
It's a line level output.
What if I want to send bus outputs so players get a mix of different channels. Is that possible too?
You can assign bus outputs to it... but you have a limited amount of bus sends on the console. So, having more outputs available, but you're still limited by sends available to use them.
That said, I think you can use the FX buses to cheat and get more buses that way... change them to pre-fader on the channel strip, route them in the software, unassign the FX Rtn(s) from Main L-R...
But you can only get there by sacrificing FX slots.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thanks! I was going to make group channels. So one for vocals, one for guitars, one for drums/percussion etc….Sound logical? That way I’d manage without the fx channels and patch each player to their assigned group. My band has 10 players
bad idea to connect the line input route to ouput like that as IEM it should be mix with different input to the ouput for example we have 18 input and now we have 18 output it should not be one to one mapping. It should be each ouput can be different mixing for the input. for that I will prefer to use link of logic pro . after mixing in logic pro and output as USb then in the mixer just rout the USB to 16 output. then it could be make sense for IEM. IEM should not only listen the original channel audio level. What do you think?
The video is talking about sending each channel to a FOH mixer so the FOH mixer can mix FOH, while the XR18 is dedicated to monitors. The monitor mixes would be derived normally on the XR18 from the XR18's 6 XLR aux outs, and also the L-R would be available for a monitor mix since the XR18 wouldn't be doing FOH mixing duties.
So in this scenario, the 18 outputs HAVE to each be split as the video shows to get FOH the same matching inputs that the XR18 is using. So then both consoles have independent control (with the caveat about gain sharing that the video mentions as a con and something to be aware of to make this work).
IF you're splitting the inputs to FOH in another way, like an analog splitter, OR you're also mixing FOH from the XR18 then there are other ways to use the Midas DN box attached to the XR18, although there will be limitations on just how far you can stretch the capabilities and compromises to get to any additional monitor mixes. But I didn't really go down this path because it's not really what is being discussed in the video as it talks about using the XR18 as a dedicated monitor console and the need to split the signal to FOH in some form. And how the DN box is an option for that, with mentioned caveats, because a lot of people are looking at it for exactly this purpose.
As a FOH engineer, I definitely don't want the signal coming from one of these. You can get a 32 channel splitter snake with 5 and 15 foot trunks for under $300 (less than the cost of this unit), with none of the cons/headaches mentioned here. A 16 channel splitter for almost half of that.
Well, whether we like it or not, these are coming as they're gaining in popularity. And for some people, that need an ultra compact ear rig, maybe flying with their mixer/splitter combo and earbuds and ears are provided at the venue... or need all the space they can get in a van for equip and people... These are very attractive to them. And for those people, I wanted to make this video so they know what they're getting into and the differences between this and an analog splitter.
That's why I spent as much time as I did talking about the tap points, what that means, and still did a summary "Pros and Cons" section at the end.
Because otherwise, without that understanding, I'm sure there will be many who will send tap points from deep into the signal chain... Or think nothing of changing gain settings at any point in the night (or each song even).
But I get you... I don't know what a band knows and understands about the signal chain when they hand me their tails. But if it's an analog split, I don't have to care either... because analog is just going to work regardless of what they do with their onstage mixes/mixer.
would you mind refering to some actual splitters? where do you find them? Sweetwater? Thomann?
@@Kvelertax You can check out Seismic Audio for Splitter Snakes. That being said many people make them and they come in many configurations
@@Kvelertax There's a link to the Proreck version in the pinned comment here. Amazon has some that are pretty affordable and I see them a lot.
These have tails built in to attach to your mixer and send to the FOH snake.
Something like these you just buy in the channel count you need. 8ch, 16ch, 24ch, 32ch...
In the IEM section of my Amazon storefront you can find link:
www.amazon.com/shop/alanhamiltonaudio
I don't see any of the snake box with built in tails listed on the Sweetwater site... But they have the 4 and 8 channel splitters like the ART S8 and Behringer splitter listed. These types require you to provide the cabling, but typically have a transformer split and ground (pin 1) lift switches. And you add as many of them as you need to split the amount of mics that you need. IOW... for the 16 channels of the XR18 you'd need 2-8channel splitters.
Here is my Sweetwater link to the Behringer rackmount splitter:
sweetwater.sjv.io/PyX23Y
Some people swear by analog splitters with ISO outs (transformer) but the reality is I've never seen anyone have a problem with a transformerless splitter anyway.
And the transformers DO change the sound, but probably not any ways that is truly negative enough to notice.
I wish there was a way to route it out pre-gain. So if any changes were made on stage it wouldn't affect FOH. Way less headaches and things that can go wrong. Not sure why they can't update that through a firmware update.