For real! Not going to lie…the first ten are kinda easy no brainers. But once you get past them, the decisions are very interesting and varied. I’d love to see LSV’s opinion on let’s say natural order or Karakas compared to other cards.
The thing about green is that it has tons of redundancy with its 1 mana accelerants, which aren't quite good enough to be on this list but are still pretty good cards.
I'd REALLY like to see you do exactly this with the current bottom 50 or so cards you keep mentioning that are rotating in and out, essentially going over chopping block considerations and why as well as thoughts on potential replacements!
He didn't mention Fury even when he listed cards that did not make this list. I think Fury is up there P1P1 over most of the right column of cards, if you look at what increases your chances to win the most.
Once you're in a deck that Reprieve is good in, Reprieve is indeed really good. But since this is P1P1... I'd be surprised if someone were to take it over Sheoldred or Palace Jailer, which I would probably put one of those two in its place at 50th (if not trying to make room for both, probably Urza, but you explained that already hah). Great list and fun commentary!
Yeah, this is really a “put your money where your mouth is” pick. If LSV first picks a Reprieve over those other very strong cards, I’ll believe him. I’ve seen him pick Remand very high, but I think that’s somewhat related to his tendency toward blue.
Yeah if anything I would put Sheoldred over hullbreacher since Sheoldred is live against every deck and can be ritualed out or reanimated while still having the draw 7 combo going for it that instead of giving you mana just kills the opponent since they're dealing 14 and gaining you 14 if they're trying to kill you gaining 14 is a massive swing.
I'd take any of those over library. I know it's controversial but library is only at it's best in a non mulled hand on the draw, also fine on the play. I think alot of players undervalue tempo in vintage cube.
I would add some combo oriented cards to that list like brain freeze too. They get a bit more powerful p1p1 in team drafts when other people don't know you have them. Cards like bolt are great but the effect is largely replaceable.
Would love to see a version of this video that looks at how cards change relative to what you already have. Something along the lines of "The Top 50 cards if you first picked Tolarian Academy/Reanimate/etc." It would be interesting to see which cards are powerful enough to overcome those kinds of synergies and which cards really rely on having the right supporting cast.
I think the way to characterise the top cards of the top tier, is that they let you maximise the mana you spend in the time available. The fundamental theory of magic is that mana is correlated to value, and so the more mana you spend the more value you're getting. In olden times (like, two years ago) Ancestral made a huge difference in longer games because it helped you avoid ever having turns where you didn't tap all your mana, giving you extra spells to cast. But as things have got faster, you're looking to cram more value into fewer turns. This is why Timewalk (and combos with Timewalk) are so bonkers - you just fully get to untap everything and cast more spells (it even gives you a draw!), and the game often ends before you run out of gas. The others, Black Lotus, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt, all put you a little bit ahead on mana spent in the early turns - and again, in the ever faster, ever more powerful format Vintage Cube has become, the game is often over before the card disadvantage matters.
I don’t see how broadside is higher than ragavan. Opening hand, unassisted and unmolested one runs over the opponent, the other is a goblin chariot. Obviously with assistance, the broadside can do very powerful stuff, I just think it’s not on the same level as Ragavan. My other problem is that it’s a 3 mana card that is easily 1 for 1ed with practically every removal card. Compared to something like fable or Minsc, which actually deserve their slots for being OP and practically impossible to deal with cleanly.
What is really crazy is that LSV explains *so* much and *so* well during his drafts that this video isn't really needed even... But hey, still another 10/10 video, thanks man!
Thank you for doing this. If it's well received, I'd imagine people would be interested in a "Just missed" or "Honorable mentions" list. I certainly would be.
Here it is!! edit: loved it, I'm a big fan of more meta content about cube. I'd love it if there was more to come! (I personally would love to know more about your choices while designing your cube(s))
Thank you very much Luis, I started drafting vintage cube last month and I am still quiet newb in it so this was very helpful and I do hope I will find more of these "guide" style vids ^^
From the thumbnail I thought you drafted a black lotus time walk library of Alexandria deck. The top fifty vintage cube cards video is the only bait I'll gladly accept
I could see Fastbond in a top 50 list, but it's definitely not getting there on raw power but rather on incredible combo potential. If this is somewhat of a p1p1 list, it makes sense to omit it.
I loved the content. I watch you draft once or twice a day and you make picks so fluidly, then when i draft i feel so overwhelmed making decisions. This might help me, i'll apply it tonight.
Awesome stuff, love the more analytical side of it considering the amount of cube you play. Would be interesting to get a similar video on some of the more recent additions/considerations for the cube (so I can steal them for our own cube list). Also the vintage cube has changed alot and certain packages/combos have been removed (Dreamhalls etc), would be interesting to get a video on that because there doesn't seem to be much content out there for certain vintage cube arrangements.
Finally! Been waiting on this video. I love the draft videos but more discussion videos would be cool too. Maybe some changes or a tier list about draft strategies etc. Good job on the video and some cards I didn't considered. Cards not on the list that surprised me: Palace Jailer, you named it already, Ponder Fury not on the list would like to hear why Had a card in mind that I wondered why it wasn't on the list but.. I can't remember.. It was gone in a flash. edit/ It was Karakas
Notably there's no White Plume Adventurer in the cube. Is it too good? Surely it's excellent but still not more busted than something like Time Walk right?
It’s def not too good, as it wouldn’t be the best card if in. I would keep it in myself, along with the 4 mana white one. I think the decision they made was that they didn’t want both white ones in for some reason, and kept the 4 mana one instead, which is def a better one in play, and prob a more fun card, despite being overall less powerful due to mana cost.
@@bumpasaurus487 Yeah I thought of that too. They probable wanted each colour to have one initiative card and Seasone Dungeoneer is more balanced with the other ones.
Yes!!! I would really like to see you make a series of these over the course of the next couple months. Maybe 51-100 etc. I really think it's great to get your insights
P1P1 there are a lot of cards i'd argue are stronger than Reprieve/Memory Lapse. Channel, Hymn to Tourach, Mind Twist, Palace Jailer and probably a couple of the newer aggro cards like Inti too (depending on whose Cube you're referencing)
Love that you grouped the fetches together, but not the moxen, you sneekie you! Also would've been interesting to hear where cards like WPA or Time Vault would rank. They were cut because of negative playing experiences but certainly would've got on the list right? Just powerlevel wise. See you in a draft soon! Great content 👌
Could have been interesting to comment on each cut from your previously posted list and mention what changed for them to be pushed out. Looks like 18 cards were cut from last year's list and 19 where added (because Vista was amalgamed with the other fetches to create an additional spot); a pretty insane amount of changes in such little time! Here they are: ***Cut*** Fury Sheoldred, the Apocalypse Mind Twist Remand Laelia, the Blade Reforged Karakas Fractured Identity Palace Jailer Jace, the Mind Sculptor Counterspell Smuggler's Copter Dack Fayden Teferi, Time Raveler Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Balance Miscalculation Preordain Underworld Breach ***Added*** Forth Eorlingas! Orcish Bowmasters Tolarian Academy Lurrus of the Dream-Den Animate Dead The One Ring Lutri, the Spellchaser Broadside Bombardiers Atraxa, Grand Unifier Mystic Confluence Tinker Seasoned Dungeoneer Caves of Chaos Adventurer Comet, Stellar Pup Urza, Lord High Artificer Flash Hullbreacher Memory Lapse Reprieve Most surprising cuts to me were Karakas, Sheoldred and Fury. Most suspect additions are Mystic Confluence and Lutri. Also I realize this is not an affirmative action list, but Fastbond, Channel, Undermountain Adventurer and Pest Infestation are all, I believe, better P1P1 picks than those two added cards... Give Green some love! 😅
Thank you! I'd like to see that "next 10" you referenced (or even a next 25) - wondering where twister, spiral, wheel, sheoldred, and karakas shake out.
This video was incredible, now you need to make one with the archetypes, which are the most frequent and the main cards, make a tier list again, it will be cool to do too
Lsv you gotta realize that you’re an incredible magic player and I love to see your insight on things I don’t even mean watching your content to be a better magic player seeing the thought process of high level players is always interesting and fun
Only thing I could see doing differently is consolidating similar cards, like you did with fetch lands, to get a few cards in. Those that are representative of other notable effects. Wheels was an effect you talked about that could fit in if we just consolidated moxes or crypt/ring.
He mentioned a couple times that white plume is significantly stronger than the 4 mana initiative cards which I assume would put it in the minsc column
I'd love more videos of this type. As much as I enjoy draft vids to put me to sleep every night, it's cool to see what newer cards have made their way into power status.
Before watching this, I took a stab at guessing your pick order. Here's everything I predicted wrong: - I swapped the order of Ancestral and Mana Crypt. After the Power Ten I had Bowmasters, then Hullbreacher, then Minsc and Boo. - I had Forth Eorlingas! 15 lower, at #28. And I had Comet 14 higher, at #27. - I had Library 41 lower, at 55. I had Mana Drain 8 higher and Oko 19 higher, above Academy. - I had Entomb and Atraxa higher than the animates, and Swords and Mana Vault above that whole package. - I had Seasoned Dungeoneer 20 higher, at #18; and Caves of Chaos Adventurer 5 lower, at #45. - I had Thoughtseize 20 lower, at #37, and Lurrus 46 lower, at #64. - I had DT at #23, Fable at #24, Urza at #26, and One Ring and Strip Mine lower (#34 and #39). - I then had a ton of cards that didn't make your list: Fury (#25), Sheoldred (#29), Brain Freeze (#30), Fastbond (#33), Undermountain Adventurer (#35), Wheel of Fortune (#36), Dark Ritual (#38), Grief (#40), Pest Infestation (#41), Inti (#43), Remand (#44), Channel (#46), Laelia (#48), and Palace Jailer (#50). - And I left off a bunch that did make your list: Mystic Confluence (I would have placed it 47 lower, at #78), Force of Will (my #53), Mana Leak (#70), Mox Diamond (#52), Flash (#73), Memory Lapse (#81), Reprieve (#67), Bolt (#58), and the fetches. (I had Vista higher at #62, and the other fetches around 70-80.) I didn't even think to rank Lutri, and I forgot about Bombardiers. - Finally, I ranked Urza's Saga 28 lower (#21), Archon 7 lower (#42), Tinker 11 lower (#47), and Ragavan 7 higher (#32). I placed Solitude basically where you did (#31 vs #32). I'm most surprised by Lurrus, Lutri, and Mana Confluence, and a bit surprised by Library's high placement. I'm also surprised that e.g. draw-sevens came closer to making the cut than cards like Fury, Laelia, Fastbond, or Undermountain Adventurer. Some others on my "almost top 50" list included Shelldock, Fiery Confluence, little Tef, and Etali.
I did name a list myself, guessing LSVs, that’s awesome. Like you, my biggest miss was prob hullbreacher, he used to take it as high or higher than orcish bowmasters, but I totally understand and agree with his explanation that bowmasters is also very good bs aggro and can’t be just killed for an easy 1-1. Tho the combo potential when hullbreacher works is way way better than bowmasters, so I personally think LSV takes hullbreacher higher than he claims. Oko and comet too I had much higher than him. And flash I thought he would put around 15th the way he slams it so hard. Oh and ragavan LSV tends to take closer to 15-20 range usually. Recently he took it over forth eirlingas in a deck that could have played either. And I don’t get how bomberdiers could be so high on his list, when it can easily just get killed for a clean 1 for 1, similar to hullbreacher since it can be flashed in EOT similarly to bomb coming out and attacking same turn, so I feel like they have similar fragility and lack of value when killed, but hullbreacher I think is better upside and easier to support, but in any case I think they should be closer to eachother, Bomb lowrered 10 picks or so and hullbreacher up 10 or 15
Oh, and where the hell is pest infestation!?!? That should both be in top 50 cause it’s that good, but even more so should be in LSVs top 50 as I’ve definitely seen him pick it over a huge chunk of these.
It seems to me that the meta of your team drafts has R/W aggressive decks performing quite well compared to the field, so I think that drags cards like Laylia, Mother of Runes, etc up to be contenders for that 40-50 tier. (I’m not super in love with this fact but it is what it is) edit: forgot to add, thanks for putting this list together! Don’t let your memes be dreams
Awesome Video, would love more analysis videos! Thanks so much for the content. Also, did not see the title immediately and thought LSV has a sick deck brewing 😅
I've always felt like even when library wasn't at it's best, the opportunity cost is so low. Like, if a colorless land really hurts your mana base, maybe it's worth not taking, but at it's worst, is it really that much worse than drawing a basic?
That’s a big part of its strength, that it’s a land slot and still crazy powerful when opening hand or 7 cards. I bet it would still be pretty great if it was like bazar and didn’t tap for mana. Similarly, shelldock and karakas are incredible cards for low opportunity cost, plus hugely powerful abilities, while not taking a deck slot. Shelldock is an island that lets you get a free “impulse” oh and you can cast it for free too!?!
Love your content, Luis, always have. I'd love to see you go over a set of cuts/adds to the cube, and listen to LSV with the designer hat on. I feel like cube design is in a much better place nowadays than it was a couple of years ago. I feel like we've come a long way from a more "naive" approach of mostly adding constructed staples (delver of secrets, lol), to a more nuanced approach that generates more interesting draft experiences. That being say, here are my 2 cents for cube inclusions: Expedition Map: I like it over crop rotation a lot more, since, being card neutral, and colorless, it fits into many more archetypes, some of which are cool and need the help (dark depths, lotus field). I like for decks to be able to exist in a spectrum of unfairness, instead of a sharp combo/fair divide, since it allows for more creative deckbuilding. Cards with a higher floor (like map) help with that. Spirit of the Labyrinth: this one is much more of a hatebear than the other draw-punishers (bowmasters, hullbreacher). I like how it forces decks that are more on the unfair side of the spectrum to interact with the board. Which is healthy for the game, imo. Also cute with Loran. Founding the Third Path: I really like incidental grave-filling, since it allows decks to straddle the line between fair and unfair much better. Founding is both a decent card, and a good enabler (shelldock, dig through time). And that combination is irresistible in a card,. (a bit more dubious from here on) Sprite Dragon: UR spells is so nice conceptually, since it's an archetype that can use unfair cube pieces to win a fair game of magic. That being said, many of the cards that work on a constructed context need waaay too much support to end up being good. Sprite Dragon's floor is a big higher, since it doesn't take much at all for it to be a 3/3 flier or so. Still, it might end up being underwhelming. Priest of Fell rites: Fairly strong by itself. Cute with Lurrus, cute with unmarked grave. You actually don't really need to be a dedicated reanimator deck to have this be good.
I have Park Map in my paper cube and it's a fun one although obviously not possible on MTGO (too bad we can't have booster tutor online). I might try out Founding the Third Path, thanks for the reccomendation. My pet card that I'd like to see tried out in more cubes is Anvil of Bogardan for the draw punishers (and maybe reanimator) but I don't think it's amazing and might end up cutting it. Also I agree with the commenters that Karakas should be on this list.
I’d group the 4 mana Initiative cards, they are all great. Yeah I think Dungeoneer is the best, but all 3 are great, and the blue one at 5 mana is pretty darn good too. I really like the 3 color producing mana dork (nobles and BoP), and are some of the main reason to play green. Since they are the best forms of acceleration outside of power. It makes some green decks able too keep up with powered decks. I’d group them together with BoP at the top, and probably find a place in the top 50. Sheoldred probably deserves a spot as well, alongside draw 7s. I’m a sucker for fast bond, so I’d probably find a spot for it. I’d probably do some rearranging on this list. Like as good as mana leak is, who is going to FP it over Hull Breacher?
I wouldn't mind these broken into tiers. I can't imagine you taking reprieve over the next 15-20 cards, but this seems pretty spot on with how you draft. Fury is the card you didn't mention in the honorable mentions that I would have guessed would be in the reprieve slot.
Awesome that you finally got around to making the updated list, Luis! As many have pointed out, there are not mono green cards on here. I would have thought Pest Infestation and maybe Fastbond to be good enough for the top 50. Fastbond being a combo enabler, I understand omitting it. Does Pest Infestation not make it because this is a p1p1 list and you don't want to be in green from the start of the draft?
Question: do you ever consider looking at a ranking like this and saying “hey, one color (green) is a bit weak” and try to buff it a bit? Im not sure what that looks like or if it’d be good for the cube, but something like cutting all initiative creatures except for undermountain adventurer? Relegate all artifact hate to green only? IDK I’m not saying these are good ideas, just wonder if that would ever be a goal one might want to try for in their curated cube
Really interesting video, loved to watch it. Did notice that there where no mon green cards on the list, so if you see this what do you think the best mon green card is in your cube. I love regrowth but I think undermountin adventure might be the best.
I'm interested to know - if there was a 6th "true" Mox that generated 1 colourless mana, where would that place? Would it be immediately after Mox Emerald, or would it fall behind things like Minsc & Boo or Forth Eorlingas? My guess is that it wouldn't be much worse than a Mox Emerald most of the time, but it's not completely obvious to me how big (or small) the power gap is between Mox Emerald and the rest of the list.
Sometimes you need to splash your Minsc & Boos, Okos or Pest Infestations and green is pretty good if you are going Hierarch into Sentinel into Questing Beast and don't try to ramp into 8-drops like it's 2013 ;)
Our man has just made top 32 at Pro Tour Chicago (18th place). One more win and it could have been another top 8. He's really one of the best player of all time.
could this be a monthly thing? or at least sometimes mentioning changes in cube vids. i feel like the meta /your pick order changes a lot over time and cube changes
Pretty much every card was either printed before 2002, or after 2018. Only exceptions to my knowledge are Thoughtseize and Mystic Confluence. Kinda wild that there’s 30 years of Magic sets but all the best cards are either from the first 5 years or the last.
I assume if Time Vault was it would be above time walk. Is White Plume Adventurer also excluded from the cube on powerlevel? If it were in would it be below moxes but above Minsc & Boo? Or is it higher than that?
The list is no longer a meme! Thank you for being awesome!
For the record, I would love a 51-100 list.
For real! Not going to lie…the first ten are kinda easy no brainers. But once you get past them, the decisions are very interesting and varied. I’d love to see LSV’s opinion on let’s say natural order or Karakas compared to other cards.
Yessssss I would LOVE more videos like this. You are the foremost authority of vintage cube, imo. I'm glad you listened to the comments :)
RIP green decks
The thing about green is that it has tons of redundancy with its 1 mana accelerants, which aren't quite good enough to be on this list but are still pretty good cards.
@@bdellovibrioo5242 no shot anyone is P1P1 taking a bolt over an Undermountain Adventurer tho. he def forgot some cards
@@damanstover2035sandydog might be
Atraxa is a green card
@@damanstover2035probably had it in, but wanted to feed the trolls 🤣
I'd REALLY like to see you do exactly this with the current bottom 50 or so cards you keep mentioning that are rotating in and out, essentially going over chopping block considerations and why as well as thoughts on potential replacements!
Green out here like 👀
Sorry green, you suck
He didn't mention Fury even when he listed cards that did not make this list. I think Fury is up there P1P1 over most of the right column of cards, if you look at what increases your chances to win the most.
I was also very surprised at the Fury omission. It feels like it deserves top 30 at the least.
Once you're in a deck that Reprieve is good in, Reprieve is indeed really good. But since this is P1P1... I'd be surprised if someone were to take it over Sheoldred or Palace Jailer, which I would probably put one of those two in its place at 50th (if not trying to make room for both, probably Urza, but you explained that already hah).
Great list and fun commentary!
this is a great point. since the list order is p1p1 power rankings and not just overall value than reprieve may not even be in the top 100.
Yeah, this is really a “put your money where your mouth is” pick. If LSV first picks a Reprieve over those other very strong cards, I’ll believe him. I’ve seen him pick Remand very high, but I think that’s somewhat related to his tendency toward blue.
@@dementievatz I think the argument for it being white makes sense. If you are playing a white tempo deck. Reprieve is just game winning sometimes
i think it's also about that it's a strong card, splash-ability and keeping yourself open
Yeah if anything I would put Sheoldred over hullbreacher since Sheoldred is live against every deck and can be ritualed out or reanimated while still having the draw 7 combo going for it that instead of giving you mana just kills the opponent since they're dealing 14 and gaining you 14 if they're trying to kill you gaining 14 is a massive swing.
Main thing I feel should be included that is missing is Karakas. I think you take it over bolt, reprieve and memory lapse type things.
I’d p1p1 Karakas, Sheoldred 4, Skullclamp over lightning bolt personally. Great list LSV 😊
Also probably fastbond tbh
I'd take any of those over library. I know it's controversial but library is only at it's best in a non mulled hand on the draw, also fine on the play. I think alot of players undervalue tempo in vintage cube.
@@Gorz204 leyline of win
Also Fury
I would add some combo oriented cards to that list like brain freeze too. They get a bit more powerful p1p1 in team drafts when other people don't know you have them. Cards like bolt are great but the effect is largely replaceable.
This is exactly what I asked for thank you so much for making this Luis!
Channel, Fastbond, Birds of Paradise, and under mountain adventurer. Pretty sure LSV has picked all of these over a lot of these top-50 cards.
I was wondering about the lack of those as well. UMA in particular he seems to get really excited about.
Sounds right for Fastbond and Undermountain Adventurer, though his evaluation may have changed? Not so sure about Channel and Birds.
Was looking for undermountain adventurer validation its for sure worse than seasoned and adventurer but still a top 50 card for sure imo
It’s weird the 3-mana initiative dork is missing from the list.
@@urconway white plume adventurer isnt in LSV's cube
Would love to see a version of this video that looks at how cards change relative to what you already have. Something along the lines of "The Top 50 cards if you first picked Tolarian Academy/Reanimate/etc." It would be interesting to see which cards are powerful enough to overcome those kinds of synergies and which cards really rely on having the right supporting cast.
I think the way to characterise the top cards of the top tier, is that they let you maximise the mana you spend in the time available. The fundamental theory of magic is that mana is correlated to value, and so the more mana you spend the more value you're getting. In olden times (like, two years ago) Ancestral made a huge difference in longer games because it helped you avoid ever having turns where you didn't tap all your mana, giving you extra spells to cast. But as things have got faster, you're looking to cram more value into fewer turns. This is why Timewalk (and combos with Timewalk) are so bonkers - you just fully get to untap everything and cast more spells (it even gives you a draw!), and the game often ends before you run out of gas. The others, Black Lotus, Sol Ring, and Mana Crypt, all put you a little bit ahead on mana spent in the early turns - and again, in the ever faster, ever more powerful format Vintage Cube has become, the game is often over before the card disadvantage matters.
I don’t see how broadside is higher than ragavan. Opening hand, unassisted and unmolested one runs over the opponent, the other is a goblin chariot. Obviously with assistance, the broadside can do very powerful stuff, I just think it’s not on the same level as Ragavan. My other problem is that it’s a 3 mana card that is easily 1 for 1ed with practically every removal card. Compared to something like fable or Minsc, which actually deserve their slots for being OP and practically impossible to deal with cleanly.
Blessed be the fruits of your labour LSV.
What is really crazy is that LSV explains *so* much and *so* well during his drafts that this video isn't really needed even... But hey, still another 10/10 video, thanks man!
Thank you for doing this. If it's well received, I'd imagine people would be interested in a "Just missed" or "Honorable mentions" list. I certainly would be.
I really think timetwister, as a stand in for all the 3 mana wheels, should be somewhere in the top 50.
How many are there?
Here it is!!
edit: loved it, I'm a big fan of more meta content about cube. I'd love it if there was more to come! (I personally would love to know more about your choices while designing your cube(s))
I'd love to see this kind of video once every several months to be able to track what things increase or decrease in the ratings!
Awesome! Thanks for this list, Luis! Looking forward to future updates!
Thank you very much Luis, I started drafting vintage cube last month and I am still quiet newb in it so this was very helpful and I do hope I will find more of these "guide" style vids ^^
Curious where these cards land: Fury, Sheoldred, Dark Ritual, Undermountain Adventurer, Dack Faden, Jace, and Hymn
Hurray for bolt making the list! My all time favorite card is a top 50?! Sweet!
From the thumbnail I thought you drafted a black lotus time walk library of Alexandria deck. The top fifty vintage cube cards video is the only bait I'll gladly accept
Loved the video! Green with no mono color card out there is a bit said, but clearly not wrong!
I could see Fastbond in a top 50 list, but it's definitely not getting there on raw power but rather on incredible combo potential. If this is somewhat of a p1p1 list, it makes sense to omit it.
Undermountain Adventurer should probably be here.
I could maybe see pest infestation squeezing in near the bottom.
I loved the content. I watch you draft once or twice a day and you make picks so fluidly, then when i draft i feel so overwhelmed making decisions. This might help me, i'll apply it tonight.
Awesome stuff, love the more analytical side of it considering the amount of cube you play. Would be interesting to get a similar video on some of the more recent additions/considerations for the cube (so I can steal them for our own cube list). Also the vintage cube has changed alot and certain packages/combos have been removed (Dreamhalls etc), would be interesting to get a video on that because there doesn't seem to be much content out there for certain vintage cube arrangements.
Finally! Been waiting on this video. I love the draft videos but more discussion videos would be cool too. Maybe some changes or a tier list about draft strategies etc. Good job on the video and some cards I didn't considered. Cards not on the list that surprised me:
Palace Jailer, you named it already,
Ponder
Fury not on the list would like to hear why
Had a card in mind that I wondered why it wasn't on the list but.. I can't remember.. It was gone in a flash. edit/ It was Karakas
I really enjoy this kind video about top cards, as well as discussions of new inclusions and changes to the cube
Would love more of these informative ideos, something like card rankings per color or archetype breakdowns
As I've finally gotten to vintage cube for the first time recently, this was super helpful for me! Thanks!
Notably there's no White Plume Adventurer in the cube. Is it too good? Surely it's excellent but still not more busted than something like Time Walk right?
It’s def not too good, as it wouldn’t be the best card if in. I would keep it in myself, along with the 4 mana white one. I think the decision they made was that they didn’t want both white ones in for some reason, and kept the 4 mana one instead, which is def a better one in play, and prob a more fun card, despite being overall less powerful due to mana cost.
@@bumpasaurus487 Yeah I thought of that too. They probable wanted each colour to have one initiative card and Seasone Dungeoneer is more balanced with the other ones.
Patrick Sullivan said he heard Minsc and Boo as "Griselbrand but they pay"
Thank you for this video!!! Love this kind of content.
Yes!!! I would really like to see you make a series of these over the course of the next couple months. Maybe 51-100 etc. I really think it's great to get your insights
This is a really great resource and helps me refresh my evaluation of these cards. Well done!
P1P1 there are a lot of cards i'd argue are stronger than Reprieve/Memory Lapse. Channel, Hymn to Tourach, Mind Twist, Palace Jailer and probably a couple of the newer aggro cards like Inti too (depending on whose Cube you're referencing)
Love that you grouped the fetches together, but not the moxen, you sneekie you!
Also would've been interesting to hear where cards like WPA or Time Vault would rank. They were cut because of negative playing experiences but certainly would've got on the list right? Just powerlevel wise.
See you in a draft soon! Great content 👌
I think WPA would be the top card in the second column
Fury, Dismember, and Sheoldred all deserve a spot.
Great list. Top 100 would be my only suggestion/request. Thanks!
Could have been interesting to comment on each cut from your previously posted list and mention what changed for them to be pushed out. Looks like 18 cards were cut from last year's list and 19 where added (because Vista was amalgamed with the other fetches to create an additional spot); a pretty insane amount of changes in such little time! Here they are:
***Cut***
Fury
Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
Mind Twist
Remand
Laelia, the Blade Reforged
Karakas
Fractured Identity
Palace Jailer
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Counterspell
Smuggler's Copter
Dack Fayden
Teferi, Time Raveler
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Balance
Miscalculation
Preordain
Underworld Breach
***Added***
Forth Eorlingas!
Orcish Bowmasters
Tolarian Academy
Lurrus of the Dream-Den
Animate Dead
The One Ring
Lutri, the Spellchaser
Broadside Bombardiers
Atraxa, Grand Unifier
Mystic Confluence
Tinker
Seasoned Dungeoneer
Caves of Chaos Adventurer
Comet, Stellar Pup
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Flash
Hullbreacher
Memory Lapse
Reprieve
Most surprising cuts to me were Karakas, Sheoldred and Fury. Most suspect additions are Mystic Confluence and Lutri. Also I realize this is not an affirmative action list, but Fastbond, Channel, Undermountain Adventurer and Pest Infestation are all, I believe, better P1P1 picks than those two added cards... Give Green some love! 😅
Really like these kinds of videos, would be happy for more in future
Thank you! I'd like to see that "next 10" you referenced (or even a next 25) - wondering where twister, spiral, wheel, sheoldred, and karakas shake out.
I love this kind of content. Explaining the inner workings of Legacy Cube.
This video was incredible, now you need to make one with the archetypes, which are the most frequent and the main cards, make a tier list again, it will be cool to do too
Top 20 archetypes in vintage cube.
Curious where you would put Fastbond, before and after your current rocky relationship with the color.
Hey LSV! Love the content -- I enjoy your drafts daily with my coffee
Pest Infestation :(
Lsv you gotta realize that you’re an incredible magic player and I love to see your insight on things
I don’t even mean watching your content to be a better magic player seeing the thought process of high level players is always interesting and fun
Thanks LSV! This feels like going to a college lecture on vintage cube.
We love this content, and all other content you do for that fact. Thanks for all you have given to this game.
I assume the green intitave creature undermountain adventurer is one of those that just missed the list just because intitaive is so strong.
I'm guessing an oversight myself? Idk why it would be significantly lower than the red one
@@randolphcarterjrmaybe LSV values it lower because he values green lower than red.
Only thing I could see doing differently is consolidating similar cards, like you did with fetch lands, to get a few cards in. Those that are representative of other notable effects. Wheels was an effect you talked about that could fit in if we just consolidated moxes or crypt/ring.
Last 2HG cube I discussed with my teammate our P1P1 between Lurrus and Force. We went Lurrus and I'm glad to see you would have done the same!
I’ve avoided drafting green decks for so long and it brings me a smile to see so little green in the top 50 lol.
Love it…. Who doesn’t want the next 50! ;)
ITS HAPPENING!!!
There is a noticeable lack of a specific color. No Fastbond?
LSV is the king of the blue mafia that's why
He never draws Fastbond when it’s good, and his opponents do.
Hey Luis! In what position would White Plume Adventurer be if it were in the cube?
He mentioned a couple times that white plume is significantly stronger than the 4 mana initiative cards which I assume would put it in the minsc column
I loved it, thank you for this!
How about Jace, Manabird or Karakas?
Saw this was uploaded, immediately dropped what I was doing, made some popcorn, and got ready to see how bad at card evaluation I am.
This content is awesome btw. I'm just as interested in your thoughts and cube theory as I am drafts themselves
Fury, sheoldred, palace jailer. All intentional omissions?
Where would white plume adventurer and time vault fall on the list if they were in the cube, I’m guessing ~11th and ~35th respectively?
I'd love more videos of this type. As much as I enjoy draft vids to put me to sleep every night, it's cool to see what newer cards have made their way into power status.
Probably taking sheoldred and inti over something like reprieve and bolt
Just want to comment here because would love more videos like this
Great discussion, I'm into content like this
Is White plume adventurer not in the cube? I thought a 3-mana creature that gives you the initiative would be far superior to those at 4 mana
It isn't in right now
I really love tbis type of content! I hope we get some more content talking about cube/draft!
Before watching this, I took a stab at guessing your pick order. Here's everything I predicted wrong:
- I swapped the order of Ancestral and Mana Crypt. After the Power Ten I had Bowmasters, then Hullbreacher, then Minsc and Boo.
- I had Forth Eorlingas! 15 lower, at #28. And I had Comet 14 higher, at #27.
- I had Library 41 lower, at 55. I had Mana Drain 8 higher and Oko 19 higher, above Academy.
- I had Entomb and Atraxa higher than the animates, and Swords and Mana Vault above that whole package.
- I had Seasoned Dungeoneer 20 higher, at #18; and Caves of Chaos Adventurer 5 lower, at #45.
- I had Thoughtseize 20 lower, at #37, and Lurrus 46 lower, at #64.
- I had DT at #23, Fable at #24, Urza at #26, and One Ring and Strip Mine lower (#34 and #39).
- I then had a ton of cards that didn't make your list: Fury (#25), Sheoldred (#29), Brain Freeze (#30), Fastbond (#33), Undermountain Adventurer (#35), Wheel of Fortune (#36), Dark Ritual (#38), Grief (#40), Pest Infestation (#41), Inti (#43), Remand (#44), Channel (#46), Laelia (#48), and Palace Jailer (#50).
- And I left off a bunch that did make your list: Mystic Confluence (I would have placed it 47 lower, at #78), Force of Will (my #53), Mana Leak (#70), Mox Diamond (#52), Flash (#73), Memory Lapse (#81), Reprieve (#67), Bolt (#58), and the fetches. (I had Vista higher at #62, and the other fetches around 70-80.) I didn't even think to rank Lutri, and I forgot about Bombardiers.
- Finally, I ranked Urza's Saga 28 lower (#21), Archon 7 lower (#42), Tinker 11 lower (#47), and Ragavan 7 higher (#32). I placed Solitude basically where you did (#31 vs #32).
I'm most surprised by Lurrus, Lutri, and Mana Confluence, and a bit surprised by Library's high placement. I'm also surprised that e.g. draw-sevens came closer to making the cut than cards like Fury, Laelia, Fastbond, or Undermountain Adventurer. Some others on my "almost top 50" list included Shelldock, Fiery Confluence, little Tef, and Etali.
I did name a list myself, guessing LSVs, that’s awesome. Like you, my biggest miss was prob hullbreacher, he used to take it as high or higher than orcish bowmasters, but I totally understand and agree with his explanation that bowmasters is also very good bs aggro and can’t be just killed for an easy 1-1. Tho the combo potential when hullbreacher works is way way better than bowmasters, so I personally think LSV takes hullbreacher higher than he claims.
Oko and comet too I had much higher than him. And flash I thought he would put around 15th the way he slams it so hard.
Oh and ragavan LSV tends to take closer to 15-20 range usually. Recently he took it over forth eirlingas in a deck that could have played either.
And I don’t get how bomberdiers could be so high on his list, when it can easily just get killed for a clean 1 for 1, similar to hullbreacher since it can be flashed in EOT similarly to bomb coming out and attacking same turn, so I feel like they have similar fragility and lack of value when killed, but hullbreacher I think is better upside and easier to support, but in any case I think they should be closer to eachother, Bomb lowrered 10 picks or so and hullbreacher up 10 or 15
Oh, and where the hell is pest infestation!?!? That should both be in top 50 cause it’s that good, but even more so should be in LSVs top 50 as I’ve definitely seen him pick it over a huge chunk of these.
It seems to me that the meta of your team drafts has R/W aggressive decks performing quite well compared to the field, so I think that drags cards like Laylia, Mother of Runes, etc up to be contenders for that 40-50 tier. (I’m not super in love with this fact but it is what it is)
edit: forgot to add, thanks for putting this list together! Don’t let your memes be dreams
really cool video would be fun to see more things like this
Awesome Video, would love more analysis videos! Thanks so much for the content.
Also, did not see the title immediately and thought LSV has a sick deck brewing 😅
This video is such a blessing, please please do this every 3 or 4 months so we can stay on your level
I've always felt like even when library wasn't at it's best, the opportunity cost is so low. Like, if a colorless land really hurts your mana base, maybe it's worth not taking, but at it's worst, is it really that much worse than drawing a basic?
That’s a big part of its strength, that it’s a land slot and still crazy powerful when opening hand or 7 cards. I bet it would still be pretty great if it was like bazar and didn’t tap for mana.
Similarly, shelldock and karakas are incredible cards for low opportunity cost, plus hugely powerful abilities, while not taking a deck slot. Shelldock is an island that lets you get a free “impulse” oh and you can cast it for free too!?!
Love your content, Luis, always have. I'd love to see you go over a set of cuts/adds to the cube, and listen to LSV with the designer hat on.
I feel like cube design is in a much better place nowadays than it was a couple of years ago. I feel like we've come a long way from a more "naive" approach of mostly adding constructed staples (delver of secrets, lol), to a more nuanced approach that generates more interesting draft experiences.
That being say, here are my 2 cents for cube inclusions:
Expedition Map: I like it over crop rotation a lot more, since, being card neutral, and colorless, it fits into many more archetypes, some of which are cool and need the help (dark depths, lotus field). I like for decks to be able to exist in a spectrum of unfairness, instead of a sharp combo/fair divide, since it allows for more creative deckbuilding. Cards with a higher floor (like map) help with that.
Spirit of the Labyrinth: this one is much more of a hatebear than the other draw-punishers (bowmasters, hullbreacher). I like how it forces decks that are more on the unfair side of the spectrum to interact with the board. Which is healthy for the game, imo. Also cute with Loran.
Founding the Third Path: I really like incidental grave-filling, since it allows decks to straddle the line between fair and unfair much better. Founding is both a decent card, and a good enabler (shelldock, dig through time). And that combination is irresistible in a card,.
(a bit more dubious from here on)
Sprite Dragon: UR spells is so nice conceptually, since it's an archetype that can use unfair cube pieces to win a fair game of magic. That being said, many of the cards that work on a constructed context need waaay too much support to end up being good. Sprite Dragon's floor is a big higher, since it doesn't take much at all for it to be a 3/3 flier or so. Still, it might end up being underwhelming.
Priest of Fell rites: Fairly strong by itself. Cute with Lurrus, cute with unmarked grave. You actually don't really need to be a dedicated reanimator deck to have this be good.
I have Park Map in my paper cube and it's a fun one although obviously not possible on MTGO (too bad we can't have booster tutor online). I might try out Founding the Third Path, thanks for the reccomendation. My pet card that I'd like to see tried out in more cubes is Anvil of Bogardan for the draw punishers (and maybe reanimator) but I don't think it's amazing and might end up cutting it. Also I agree with the commenters that Karakas should be on this list.
I’d group the 4 mana Initiative cards, they are all great. Yeah I think Dungeoneer is the best, but all 3 are great, and the blue one at 5 mana is pretty darn good too. I really like the 3 color producing mana dork (nobles and BoP), and are some of the main reason to play green. Since they are the best forms of acceleration outside of power. It makes some green decks able too keep up with powered decks. I’d group them together with BoP at the top, and probably find a place in the top 50. Sheoldred probably deserves a spot as well, alongside draw 7s. I’m a sucker for fast bond, so I’d probably find a spot for it. I’d probably do some rearranging on this list. Like as good as mana leak is, who is going to FP it over Hull Breacher?
No pest infestation or undermountain adventurer 😢
I wouldn't mind these broken into tiers. I can't imagine you taking reprieve over the next 15-20 cards, but this seems pretty spot on with how you draft. Fury is the card you didn't mention in the honorable mentions that I would have guessed would be in the reprieve slot.
Awesome that you finally got around to making the updated list, Luis!
As many have pointed out, there are not mono green cards on here. I would have thought Pest Infestation and maybe Fastbond to be good enough for the top 50. Fastbond being a combo enabler, I understand omitting it. Does Pest Infestation not make it because this is a p1p1 list and you don't want to be in green from the start of the draft?
Question: do you ever consider looking at a ranking like this and saying “hey, one color (green) is a bit weak” and try to buff it a bit? Im not sure what that looks like or if it’d be good for the cube, but something like cutting all initiative creatures except for undermountain adventurer? Relegate all artifact hate to green only? IDK I’m not saying these are good ideas, just wonder if that would ever be a goal one might want to try for in their curated cube
Really interesting video, loved to watch it. Did notice that there where no mon green cards on the list, so if you see this what do you think the best mon green card is in your cube. I love regrowth but I think undermountin adventure might be the best.
I'm interested to know - if there was a 6th "true" Mox that generated 1 colourless mana, where would that place? Would it be immediately after Mox Emerald, or would it fall behind things like Minsc & Boo or Forth Eorlingas? My guess is that it wouldn't be much worse than a Mox Emerald most of the time, but it's not completely obvious to me how big (or small) the power gap is between Mox Emerald and the rest of the list.
You pick off color Moxen above basically anything and play it 100% of the time in any deck, so my bet is it'd be just after Emerald.
Maybe even ahead of Emerald to prevent you from accidentally drafting green ;) @@yogzi
Sometimes you need to splash your Minsc & Boos, Okos or Pest Infestations and green is pretty good if you are going Hierarch into Sentinel into Questing Beast and don't try to ramp into 8-drops like it's 2013 ;)
Saw you at the pro tour this weekend, hope it's going well!
I love a lot of these cards are cards that weren't designed with 1v1 in mind. Minsc and Forth is so insane 1v1 and so meh multiplayer
I’ve only been requesting this video for a year. Kinda excited.
I really thought pest infestation was gonna make the list.
I fully agree, prob the most surprising omission. Also dark ritual and time spiral/time twister
This would have made an amazing podcast
Our man has just made top 32 at Pro Tour Chicago (18th place). One more win and it could have been another top 8. He's really one of the best player of all time.
What would your 100% best possible deck, card for card? Would it end up being all cards from this list (and basics)?
could this be a monthly thing? or at least sometimes mentioning changes in cube vids. i feel like the meta /your pick order changes a lot over time and cube changes
Would love to see other cube discord top 50s to compare them. How many WR cards make Sandydogs list lol
Awesome breakdown, thank you!
Pretty much every card was either printed before 2002, or after 2018. Only exceptions to my knowledge are Thoughtseize and Mystic Confluence.
Kinda wild that there’s 30 years of Magic sets but all the best cards are either from the first 5 years or the last.
I assume if Time Vault was it would be above time walk.
Is White Plume Adventurer also excluded from the cube on powerlevel?
If it were in would it be below moxes but above Minsc & Boo? Or is it higher than that?
Oh god PLS more of this! Also, what are your thoughts on doing constructed content sometime?
Where would you put white plume adventurer if it was in the cube?