Paul!!! I can’t believe I’ve never seen this video. This is my exact car and I’m having the exact same issue right now. 😂. You are the absolute man! And buff to boot.
Paul, awesome video as always. Love those scope patterns clear and up to the point. As a follow up, I recommend to anyone out there who wants better understanding of system operations to get Paul's e-book, I did and didn't regret it.
I thought it was a great video. Excellent description and explanation. thanks for adding the known good waveforms from the new igniter. I have been burnt by this issue before.
Thanks Paul; I have one of those cars , work car and it has acted like that before . I had to replace the valve cover gasket to help but not cure the problem . I do appreciate the video . I had no idea the module would cause this
I understand how you feel. Keep watching my videos and asking questions is all you can do. I won't be able to answer all of them but I will help you when I can. Have a great evening.
yes, after the spike in the primary, everything else you are looking at is from the secondary ckt. feeding back. so we know we can see no fuel misfires on the secondary and that means we should be able to see it on the primary. i'll have to try it
My first car was a 1998 Acura Integra, a Honda of course. Car would have an intermittent stutter, but eventually died. Had it towed and they replaced the ignitor. So I fully agree with you LeakyDiaper (just read the name as I was typing it, nice).
Had a very similar issue with my '95 Integra. I put a new eBay ignitor in it just to see if it was worth the massive savings. It ran amazingly, but the ignitor & coil get EXTREMELY hot, especially here in Savannah summer, and the car just suddenly dies out of nowhere. Once cooled, it will restart & continue until it overheats again... I suspect the new ignitor's internal ground or coil current limiter circuit is insufficient, & I REALLY wanna know exactly what it's doing to understand it better, but I don't have a working scope at the moment. 😢
Thank you for making this video. It is incredibly deataiIed. I wish i saw it a month ago!!! I recently changed the fan switch thermo switch radiator cap distributor cap rotor Ignition wire spark plugs the EGR valve and now Im going to change the icm or igniter.. This was the worse car problem ive ever expirienced. I would have never found out if it werent for you. Wish me luck
Malisa696 hope Paul doesn't mind me answering your question, the answer is yes do some r&d with a good car adding propane disconnecting injector etc do a WOT test and look at your KV line and the slope of the burn line and you should have the answers you require. Paul inside video again keep em coming pal :)
When you install inline spark tester normally on vehicles cranking but not starting how many kv are you specting to see as minimum ? Does it varies from waste spark and cop?? Minimum kv?? Thanks Paul
I could definitely hear the difference in how those ran before and after. Sounds just like my fiances civic pre install of the new one. Makes sense considering the coil tests good but i was suspecting the spark even though the rest is good. Igniter was questionable.
ScannerDanner I have a 93 Civic dx and it has a little hard time to start . At first I thought it would be the main relay then I checked the ignition switch and it was fine to so my last three things I had in mind was the ECU and the fuel pump and the coil . It gets good voltage as well at the end I ended up replaceing everything and it still has a hard time turning on . Please help and thank you
@ScnnerDanner like sometimes when im sittin in traffic the car will be run smooth, then i feel the car shake a lil bit as if it was chillylol. while this is happening the idle which is 800 will drop to like 750-700 then pick back up.
My 2.3L Honda starts but takes 30 seconds to a minute to crank. I thought it was my methanol. Cars been sitting. But when it cranks it runs. Think my coil is shorted.
I have an 07 Civic 1.8L lost power on 95 and limped it home thinking I blew my engine... Turns out it's was #4 cylinder coil pack failed two days prior installed new NGK PLUGS THINKING THAT DID IT. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK. KEEP IN MIND THAT CYLINDER IS GETTING A BIT OF OIL IN IT FROM A BAD VALVE COVER GASKET
slow start, meaning it cranks over slowly (weak battery etc) or it takes a long time to start (extended crank time). Any engine that stalls at stops, the first thing that needs to be looked at is the throttle body. Is it dirty? I have videos on this
I would have like to seen the new igniters ground voltage compared to the old one. based on current it would have to be closer to ground on the new one to increase current flow.
I have a 2000 Honda Civic dx just put the motor and it was running fine now it’s giving me problems sometimes it starts right up runs fine turn it off let it sit for a little and it cranks but won’t start and when it does start it got a nasty mis fire what can be the problem
So much work for such a little problem,. I still dont understand how it can happen,. mayby it whas bad when they where connected right and on the process switched? that would really hurt for the owner. If you dont have those tools you really got a problem and the car would go to a scrapyard. Great video btw!
Hi Paul, a quick question on this case study: Considering the igniter and coil are inside the distributor, how are you measuring the coil negative control voltage? Is the blue wire (the rpm signal for the tach) actually true coil negative, even though it's a separate output pin on the igniter?
I'm pretty sure it is true coil - voltage. It is a parallel branch off of the pin on the igniter that controls coil negative (used for the tach as you stated)
I have a question but it is not related to this video. Can I use ignition coil primary voltage waveform to determine a no fuel misfire or to determine lean or rich condition? Thank you.
@@ScannerDanner oh okay, I'm guessing in my lexus 94 sc400 it wouldn't throw up any codes. I appreciate it,I'm trying to figure out why my car has been having issues for 8 months.
Hi Paul...Im working on a 2007 GMC express Savana 4.3L. Its a no start, good fuel pressure but a weak spark. Im suspecting an ignition module/ignitor problem. I have not done a scope yet - its a pain in the butt taking out the engine cover - and pin probed 3-wire CKP (bottom of engine close to crank pulley) sensor, which is terribly soaked with oil, and got a reading of 11.53V in one wire and almost identical 8.53 V on the two remaining wires. Am I right in suspecting an ignition module problem? Thank you
I recently bought a 89 Civic with the 1.5 dual point injection. After car warms up it wil stall. And then when i start it up again vehicle will lose power and sputter.(rpms can barely reach 2000rpm) Iv been told ots the iacv but have not replace it yet. Could this be a igniter issue
I have an 01Civic that does something like the car in the video. It starts hard and will run for 20-25 minutes but then will stall. But if I wait a bit it will start up again for another period of time and repeat the process. The thing is my car is a standard (1.7L) and I'm not aware of any igniter on it. Any idea where to look to correct the problem?
So could it be my module? I already replaced my coil about a month ago.. Car drives for like 2 minutes then dies out, it will eventually start again after 5 minutes but will repeat the process.. I've already checked fuel pressure its good
Id like your input on watching primary vs secondary, amperage vs voltage. Ive got attenuated leads to view primary/injection circuits and ive considered attachments for secondary, is it worth it?
@@ScannerDanner sorry I missed that. Question I've changed this part on mine and still no spark here and there it comes and goes I'm completely confused.
Hey paul im wondering if u can check out this video i just posted got a question for u. The car has a hesitation @ cruise speeds my first thought was plug wires i tried a set of used ones which were all within spec when i ohmed them out same pattern on the scope with both sets
@scannerDanner Hey man. Do you think my hestitation whole tryna to re accelarate from a stop has somethig to do with the coils or module? i checked for Vac leaks and learning th 98 saturn sl1 model is famous for intake manifold leaks, However i found none. New NGK plugs, wires, and cleaned throttle/iac. thingt dont do it all the time so ts hard to gure =(
Can you weigh in on the issue of visual appearance of the spark? I've read various opinions about thin orange / yellow spark vs. thick blue spark and what their significance is. Also, can weak spark ( without misfire ) result in a lean signal at idle on the O2?
Sure. An orange colored spark is typically thought of as being weak, while this can be the case, there are other causes. For example, when testing for spark with a variable gap tester, if you close the air gap, the spark will be more orange, if you open the air gap the spark will be blue. This is due to current flow differences. When the gap is narrow the spark travels across the electrode for a longer period of time. (burn time) and makes the spark look orange. When the gap is increased, the coil has to build more energy (voltage) before it can overcome the gap and when it finally does, it is in the form of a higher voltage spark. This results in less burn time as well. Remember a coil will produce the same energy each time it fires and will be "used up" in the from of voltage and current combined. And they will always be opposite each other. As for your O2 question, a lean condition does require more energy because fuel acts as a conductor, however these are tough to pick out in a secondary pattern unless the injector is not firing at all, then it is easy to see.
Wow, that's exactly opposite of what I was expecting. I assumed that as blue light is higher energy, that would correlate to the lower voltage higher amperage / current flow at a smaller gap and the lower energy yellow / orange light would correlate to higher voltage lower current flow at the larger gap. But you're saying the color of the spark is correlated to the voltage, not the current. I've gotta go out and test that. Regarding the O2 question, couldn't a weak spark show as a short burn line ( less than 1ms ), with little or no oscillations at it's end, resulting in an incomplete burn and a false lean condition?
The blue light is higher voltage but less burn time. The orange light is lower voltage but longer burn time. The energy is the same on each event A lean misfire, the energy needed to maintain the burn cannot be supported, so yes a short burn time with a vary large coil oscillation at the end of it due to a lot of left over energy inside of the coil. A weak spark is a different topic altogether. A weak spark from a failing coil would have a difficult time jumping any air gap at all (depending on how weak the coil is), the spark may actually still be blue (very thin but still blue) and not jump past a 1/4 inch gap. And yes, when viewed on a waveform, you would have a very short burn time and possibly no reserve coil oscillation. So do you see how misleading it is to say an orange spark is a weak spark and a blue spark is good?
As an experiment, my students and I do this all the time with a waste spark coil set up in the classroom. We can catch paper on fire with a narrow air gap and only punch holes through the paper with a large air gap.
ScannerDanner so can you really imply anything at all from spark color when using a variable gap spark tester? a really cool experiment would be to vary the saturation of the coil while maintaining a constant Gap so that only the current and time change but not the voltage and see how that affects the spark color.
Hi Paul, could you explain to me how you knew it was the ignitor and not a bad coil? Thanks,great videos,Iam really enjoying them,you have inspired me to learn,just got a Modis and Iam loving it!
Watch this video lecture Section 22 No Start, No Spark Diagnosis (Part 3) Start at the 47:36 minute mark. If you are not a subscriber yet, it is free for 14 days. It is too complicated to put into text here to answer your question.
Hey i have a hondah 96 prelude and it dies when im sittin and take alot to get it goin ita 5 speed and like to die when i take off and i haveto floor it get the rpms up n slowly let the clutch out and it bogs itself out and then cathces
Paul!!! I can’t believe I’ve never seen this video. This is my exact car and I’m having the exact same issue right now. 😂. You are the absolute man! And buff to boot.
Paul, awesome video as always. Love those scope patterns clear and up to the point. As a follow up, I recommend to anyone out there who wants better understanding of system operations to get Paul's e-book, I did and didn't regret it.
I thought it was a great video. Excellent description and explanation. thanks for adding the known good waveforms from the new igniter. I have been burnt by this issue before.
Thanks Jeremy
Thanks Paul; I have one of those cars , work car and it has acted like that before . I had to replace the valve cover gasket to help but not cure the problem . I do appreciate the video . I had no idea the module would cause this
I understand how you feel. Keep watching my videos and asking questions is all you can do. I won't be able to answer all of them but I will help you when I can. Have a great evening.
Paul you are a great TECH. I learn so much everyday when i watch your videos. Thank you very much!!!!!
yes, after the spike in the primary, everything else you are looking at is from the secondary ckt. feeding back. so we know we can see no fuel misfires on the secondary and that means we should be able to see it on the primary. i'll have to try it
Great diagnostic procedures,Paul, although I have no knowledge of how to read or use the scope,thanks
This is bar none best case study video on the internet!
My first car was a 1998 Acura Integra, a Honda of course. Car would have an intermittent stutter, but eventually died. Had it towed and they replaced the ignitor. So I fully agree with you LeakyDiaper (just read the name as I was typing it, nice).
Wish you could have shown us an example of the rough start. Would have loved to know what that sounded like.
Like a go cart
Wow thanks to this video, thank you, thank you, thank you, yes thanks God, God bless you SD.
it is as juergen said and I am measuring the collapse of the primary magnetic field with it.
Had a very similar issue with my '95 Integra. I put a new eBay ignitor in it just to see if it was worth the massive savings. It ran amazingly, but the ignitor & coil get EXTREMELY hot, especially here in Savannah summer, and the car just suddenly dies out of nowhere. Once cooled, it will restart & continue until it overheats again...
I suspect the new ignitor's internal ground or coil current limiter circuit is insufficient, & I REALLY wanna know exactly what it's doing to understand it better, but I don't have a working scope at the moment. 😢
excellent as always thanks for taking the time to show us
Thank you for making this video. It is incredibly deataiIed. I wish i saw it a month ago!!!
I recently changed the fan switch thermo switch radiator cap distributor cap rotor Ignition wire spark plugs the EGR valve and now Im going to change the icm or igniter..
This was the worse car problem ive ever expirienced. I would have never found out if it werent for you. Wish me luck
Malisa696 hope Paul doesn't mind me answering your question, the answer is yes do some r&d with a good car adding propane disconnecting injector etc do a WOT test and look at your KV line and the slope of the burn line and you should have the answers you require. Paul inside video again keep em coming pal :)
I have a civic 91 at the 12:22 my car doez the same thing when it gets hot it starts to shake & i have a code 4
When you install inline spark tester normally on vehicles cranking but not starting how many kv are you specting to see as minimum ? Does it varies from waste spark and cop?? Minimum kv?? Thanks Paul
I could definitely hear the difference in how those ran before and after. Sounds just like my fiances civic pre install of the new one. Makes sense considering the coil tests good but i was suspecting the spark even though the rest is good. Igniter was questionable.
thank you and if you do i promise you will not be disappointed
ScannerDanner I have a 93 Civic dx and it has a little hard time to start . At first I thought it would be the main relay then I checked the ignition switch and it was fine to so my last three things I had in mind was the ECU and the fuel pump and the coil . It gets good voltage as well at the end I ended up replaceing everything and it still has a hard time turning on . Please help and thank you
depends on the model, is it a honda van?
@ScnnerDanner like sometimes when im sittin in traffic the car will be run smooth, then i feel the car shake a lil bit as if it was chillylol. while this is happening the idle which is 800 will drop to like 750-700 then pick back up.
All the time my friend.
hey paul thanks for all of these videos. i live in pittsburgh and i would love to go to rosedale for school
My 2.3L Honda starts but takes 30 seconds to a minute to crank. I thought it was my methanol. Cars been sitting. But when it cranks it runs. Think my coil is shorted.
I have an 07 Civic 1.8L lost power on 95 and limped it home thinking I blew my engine... Turns out it's was #4 cylinder coil pack failed two days prior installed new NGK PLUGS THINKING THAT DID IT. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK. KEEP IN MIND THAT CYLINDER IS GETTING A BIT OF OIL IN IT FROM A BAD VALVE COVER GASKET
thanks for the plug!
Why is it only pulling 6A .on your other video on a civic too coil was pulling about 8A..
Different year and engine? Not sure. 6amps on coil primary is okay. So it 8, so is 10
2004 es, slow start, stalls at stop only with ac. New sparkplugs, sparkplug tube seals leak on all 4 tubes
slow start, meaning it cranks over slowly (weak battery etc) or it takes a long time to start (extended crank time).
Any engine that stalls at stops, the first thing that needs to be looked at is the throttle body. Is it dirty? I have videos on this
I would have like to seen the new igniters ground voltage compared to the old one. based on current it would have to be closer to ground on the new one to increase current flow.
+Cody Wichman I have a picture of that in my book. Section 22 page 20 (if you have my book)
Sorry I didn't show that in this video
Thanks. The book shows what I was looking for.
I have a 2000 Honda Civic dx just put the motor and it was running fine now it’s giving me problems sometimes it starts right up runs fine turn it off let it sit for a little and it cranks but won’t start and when it does start it got a nasty mis fire what can be the problem
Find out what you are missing when it is not starting. Spark or injector pulse, then we go from there
What would cause the ignitor to go bad?
So much work for such a little problem,. I still dont understand how it can happen,. mayby it whas bad when they where connected right and on the process switched? that would really hurt for the owner.
If you dont have those tools you really got a problem and the car would go to a scrapyard.
Great video btw!
Hi Paul, a quick question on this case study: Considering the igniter and coil are inside the distributor, how are you measuring the coil negative control voltage? Is the blue wire (the rpm signal for the tach) actually true coil negative, even though it's a separate output pin on the igniter?
I'm pretty sure it is true coil - voltage. It is a parallel branch off of the pin on the igniter that controls coil negative (used for the tach as you stated)
How do you used test light on 2000 ford expeditions
So why was the igniter limiting the coil so low?
I have a question but it is not related to this video. Can I use ignition coil primary voltage waveform to determine a no fuel misfire or to determine lean or rich condition? Thank you.
Would a check engine light pop up?
Not on this year, maybe a lean code, possibly
@@ScannerDanner oh okay, I'm guessing in my lexus 94 sc400 it wouldn't throw up any codes. I appreciate it,I'm trying to figure out why my car has been having issues for 8 months.
it could be a lot of things my friend. start with a coil output test and see how far the spark jumps to a test light on each tower...be careful
Now you got me wondering if my random p1399 code is due to a bad igniter or icm. 🧐, great video
the igniter is the icm (ignition control module) or did you mean ECM (engine control module)
I meant the coil itself.
So If I have a 6amp reading on the input wire while cranking that means the ignitor is good?
Hi Paul...Im working on a 2007 GMC express Savana 4.3L. Its a no start, good fuel pressure but a weak spark. Im suspecting an ignition module/ignitor problem. I have not done a scope yet - its a pain in the butt taking out the engine cover - and pin probed 3-wire CKP (bottom of engine close to crank pulley) sensor, which is terribly soaked with oil, and got a reading of 11.53V in one wire and almost identical 8.53 V on the two remaining wires. Am I right in suspecting an ignition module problem? Thank you
I recently bought a 89 Civic with the 1.5 dual point injection. After car warms up it wil stall. And then when i start it up again vehicle will lose power and sputter.(rpms can barely reach 2000rpm) Iv been told ots the iacv but have not replace it yet. Could this be a igniter issue
those were the exact symptoms this one had
And the IAC valve is absolutely NOT your problem with those symptoms
Hey, I have a 91 civic SI
It won’t start and backfires out of the intake. Timing is good. Has fuel and spark where to go to next? Thanks so much
Backfiring out of the intake during cranking is suggesting a timing issue. Or maybe you put the plug wires on wrong? When did the problem start?
@@ScannerDanner I just bought the car for cheap to learn on to be honest. Guy said it sit for a year
@@ScannerDanner also I check the plug wires and they were put on correctly
Can one weak spark in a coil pack cause idle surge?
no problem, thank you
I have an 01Civic that does something like the car in the video. It starts hard and will run for 20-25 minutes but then will stall. But if I wait a bit it will start up again for another period of time and repeat the process. The thing is my car is a standard (1.7L) and I'm not aware of any igniter on it.
Any idea where to look to correct the problem?
Starts hard? You mean cranks for a long time? Check fuel psi first
My car does the same but starts immediately
So could it be my module? I already replaced my coil about a month ago.. Car drives for like 2 minutes then dies out, it will eventually start again after 5 minutes but will repeat the process.. I've already checked fuel pressure its good
It's a eg d15b3 carb
Id like your input on watching primary vs secondary, amperage vs voltage. Ive got attenuated leads to view primary/injection circuits and ive considered attachments for secondary, is it worth it?
very good, i have to watch more of these and buy your ebook,
thank you
nice ground lead
True
I don't know if I missed it but how did he solve the problem?
it is in the title (bad igniter)
@@ScannerDanner sorry I missed that. Question I've changed this part on mine and still no spark here and there it comes and goes I'm completely confused.
@@adrianherrera543 this video may help you th-cam.com/video/-ZGLoSSowYY/w-d-xo.html
Paul, how true is it that scan tools misidentify cylinder misfires?
Hey paul im wondering if u can check out this video i just posted got a question for u. The car has a hesitation @ cruise speeds my first thought was plug wires i tried a set of used ones which were all within spec when i ohmed them out same pattern on the scope with both sets
thank you very much!
@scannerDanner Hey man. Do you think my hestitation whole tryna to re accelarate from a stop has somethig to do with the coils or module? i checked for Vac leaks and learning th 98 saturn sl1 model is famous for intake manifold leaks, However i found none. New NGK plugs, wires, and cleaned throttle/iac. thingt dont do it all the time so ts hard to gure =(
Can you weigh in on the issue of visual appearance of the spark? I've read various opinions about thin orange / yellow spark vs. thick blue spark and what their significance is. Also, can weak spark ( without misfire ) result in a lean signal at idle on the O2?
Sure. An orange colored spark is typically thought of as being weak, while this can be the case, there are other causes. For example, when testing for spark with a variable gap tester, if you close the air gap, the spark will be more orange, if you open the air gap the spark will be blue. This is due to current flow differences. When the gap is narrow the spark travels across the electrode for a longer period of time. (burn time) and makes the spark look orange. When the gap is increased, the coil has to build more energy (voltage) before it can overcome the gap and when it finally does, it is in the form of a higher voltage spark. This results in less burn time as well. Remember a coil will produce the same energy each time it fires and will be "used up" in the from of voltage and current combined. And they will always be opposite each other.
As for your O2 question, a lean condition does require more energy because fuel acts as a conductor, however these are tough to pick out in a secondary pattern unless the injector is not firing at all, then it is easy to see.
Wow, that's exactly opposite of what I was expecting. I assumed that as blue light is higher energy, that would correlate to the lower voltage higher amperage / current flow at a smaller gap and the lower energy yellow / orange light would correlate to higher voltage lower current flow at the larger gap. But you're saying the color of the spark is correlated to the voltage, not the current. I've gotta go out and test that.
Regarding the O2 question, couldn't a weak spark show as a short burn line ( less than 1ms ), with little or no oscillations at it's end, resulting in an incomplete burn and a false lean condition?
The blue light is higher voltage but less burn time. The orange light is lower voltage but longer burn time.
The energy is the same on each event
A lean misfire, the energy needed to maintain the burn cannot be supported, so yes a short burn time with a vary large coil oscillation at the end of it due to a lot of left over energy inside of the coil.
A weak spark is a different topic altogether. A weak spark from a failing coil would have a difficult time jumping any air gap at all (depending on how weak the coil is), the spark may actually still be blue (very thin but still blue) and not jump past a 1/4 inch gap. And yes, when viewed on a waveform, you would have a very short burn time and possibly no reserve coil oscillation. So do you see how misleading it is to say an orange spark is a weak spark and a blue spark is good?
As an experiment, my students and I do this all the time with a waste spark coil set up in the classroom. We can catch paper on fire with a narrow air gap and only punch holes through the paper with a large air gap.
ScannerDanner so can you really imply anything at all from spark color when using a variable gap spark tester? a really cool experiment would be to vary the saturation of the coil while maintaining a constant Gap so that only the current and time change but not the voltage and see how that affects the spark color.
DC voltage of coil primariy circuit
Yeah im here 2024 to tell you that I was the guy to change the coil and now im
Headed to the icm
thanks man
Great video
@ScannerDanner yeah im bout to ry that. Thanks alot bro =D.
Hi Paul, could you explain to me how you knew it was the ignitor and not a bad coil? Thanks,great videos,Iam really enjoying them,you have inspired me to learn,just got a Modis and Iam loving it!
Watch this video lecture
Section 22 No Start, No Spark Diagnosis (Part 3)
Start at the 47:36 minute mark. If you are not a subscriber yet, it is free for 14 days.
It is too complicated to put into text here to answer your question.
can you send me a private message with the info about the ebook? how to buy it from another country (latin america) and the price ,can you reply?
I can't answer that. I wish I could....because its bad :-)
Hey i have a hondah 96 prelude and it dies when im sittin and take alot to get it goin ita 5 speed and like to die when i take off and i haveto floor it get the rpms up n slowly let the clutch out and it bogs itself out and then cathces
Good.
Skip right through feeble commercials
:-) pico rules
:-) now you know how they fail
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?This video is sick. Brilliant indeed,
that's awesome. if you fill out your name and email on my webpage, I can make sure that one of our admissions reps. contact you if you like.
DONE
good video. but as a beginner i didnt understand anything you are doing there.
not at all thank you!!
fill out your name and email address on my website and I will send you more information
:-)
Should say nice not inside stupid predictive iPad lol
Thank you!!