Operation and testing coil over plug ignition (4 wire) - Toyota/Lexus
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ม.ค. 2013
- This case study is perfect for anyone interested in the working details of Toyota/Lexus coil over plug ignition system, and the very similar three-wire designs used by many other manufacturers. We spend a lot of time with the Pico on this one, but don’t forget the other basic checks I discuss, including the spark output, power balance and moving a suspected bad coil to another cylinder.
Engine Performance Diagnostics chapter 22
Symptoms
- check engine light (P0304)
- misfire
Fix
- replace the #4 ignition coil
Tests shown
- how to perform a cylinder drop test (power balance test) to identify a misfiring cylinder
- how to perform a relative compression test
- how to perform a spark output check on a coil over plug ignition coil
- understanding three and four-wire coil circuit design and operation
- understanding Toyota IGT and IGF circuits and related trouble codes
- how to scope test a COP coil using voltage and current
- analyzing coil current waveforms and IGT/IGF signals
- identifying differences between factory and aftermarket ignition coils
Tools used
- scan tool
- incandescent test light
- Pico four channel automotive lab scope
- low amp probe
Playlist
- (Chapter 22) No Spark Troubleshooting, Ignition Coil & Module Testing
• (Chapter 22) No Spark ...
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- Ford 5.4 shorted coil primary winding and bad computer driver
• Ford 5.4 shorted coil ...
- How to test an igniter on a Toyota/Lexus
• How to test an igniter...
- Ignition System Designs, Operation and Testing (an SD Premium video)
• Ignition System Design...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I remember watching this about 8 years ago. It's one of the videos that started it all for me. I remember that shop noise being a problem, hopefully that's gone. I've been a successful electrical diagnostics technician with my own business. Thank you.
This is excellent visual evidence of a clear difference in quality of original equipment vs. aftermarket.
What a great video Paul. You're a gifted teacher and a brilliant technician.
Thank you James!
Eight years later and I am still coming to this video to LEARN! Thanks for all the great videos and excellent content! 🙏
such a good professor I wish I would have had you as my professor at college
Yes that makes perfect sense,after around 100hrs of ur normal & premium vids and my had knowledge I can scope and read/diagnose near on anything on a car,the only tricky thing iAm trying to get my head around is interpreting ignition wave forms properly,thumbs up for you sharing your knowledge,your diagnostic book and pico is the BEST tool I have bought for the shop.
I love your videos. Your a great teacher and i love how you explain everything so detailed but yet simple. Keep up the great work.
Amazing video, you always prove that you are the best in diagnosis and while explaining you talk in simple terms that always make sense. In otherwords you never talk theory that humans wont understand, which is what many others do in theory class. Simply Great.. I also never noticed that u struggle in middle while explaining, you have ur concept very clear and going from there with not struggle, excellent.
Thanks for helping me saving 430 USD in repair saving from the official repair shop on this information.
I found two coils which did not work, replaced them, and my car runs again.
And it was done without any testing equipment than my own ears.
Thanks so much
switching the coils around to find out if its bad or not -- brilliant! I have an intermittent problem, so I switched the plug to another spot and the coil to another spot. Now to see which spot the error returns to. You saved me a lot of time and money.
chrisfaley6662; I used to mow lawn at your moms condo association. So after 7 yrs how did this help you,...or not ?
@@tubetime39 You got the wrong guy, sorry.
Thank you so much! I really means a lot to hear from a fellow tech. in the field that what I am doing is worthwhile.
Excellent information. I got the tips for my next car with 4 wires, thank you for all information. GOD bless your family and you too
i just wanted to thank you for making these videos. I purchased your ebook and reading it everyday. I already impressed the boss with the knowledge that im learning and using it with my diagnostics strageties
i really enjoyed this video. They are very easey to understand and apply Again, thank you Paul
this video was an awesome supplement to me doing some ignition waveforms on my sisters 2016 Toyota camry. Same 4 wire coils. The explanation of the 4 wire helped me undersand what is happening. Also I was looking at a diagram on a 2009 Mercedes Benz S550, same design and I scratching my head at that common wire... now I understand. Again I can't stress enough paul your videos are relevant to so many vehicles. These videos are so packed with good info
Thanks so much brother
Another awesome video scannerdanner! Don"t let the shop noise get to you lol, we can still hear you just fine.
Ha ha ha. You didn't know it but that air hammer in the background was Eric O, giggling as he yanked your chain. Brilliant video, this one clarified many of my open questions.
by the way I've learned more from your videos than all the other TH-cam videos I've watched combined!! So thank u for that you're an excellent teacher danner
Thank you Michael!
ok i'm a pretty new tech(just starting my 3rd year in the field). I'm considering buying your e-book as a reference when I get stuck with a hard car to diagnose. I wish I could of had you as a drivability teacher while I was still in school. These videos make sense of everything I've seen in the field and in the classroom. Thank you for these videos and I hope you continue to make more.
Thanks scannerdanner, with your videos i'm learning how to use a picoscope.
I have never use one before
Thank you Paul!
Just fixing my own cars..
I bought a Topdon Phoenix plus; and you make me believe I can learn this stuff. I now understand what the 3 or 4 wires are on the injectors. When you start off knowing nothing, it doesn't take long to double and triple your knowledge base!
I really appreciate you taking us along as you think out loud, make mistakes occasionally, and figure it out.
Great to hear! Thank you
You absolutely can learn this stuff! Glad your are here
Wow, what a video. Two Thumbs Up. You are one hell of a teacher in the classroom.
Thanks so much! It's been my passion for the past 18+ years now
Hey Paul, I've watched a few videos of yours, I think your a great lecturer. You really spell out the situation, your diagrams are good and you explain them great, and you scoping exercises are a really good overview of the system working or not. If I had you once upon a time as a mentor I could have saved years and year of working this stuff out on my own. I hope your students appreciate you. And that hammer!! You wanna scream but you gotta laugh. Its a real workshop, and your a real guy with real experience. Thanks for your videos and book.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind words and encouragement.
good explanation Paul,I never understood exactly why use the IGF signal if you already have a trigger signal to the coil ,but it make sense why they do,that is how the pcm determines dwell time... Thanks Paul....
Good video , i learnt a lot .
Best videos on you tube !!!
Thanks , graets from the Netherlands
Great job Paul you are a brilliant teacher. I love watching your videos. I learned so much from you I will continue watching your videos. Thanks
Thank you!
Excellent video Paul. As for the air hammer, just think of it as applause.
Awesome video! Will be sharing this!
You are great Teacher, respect to you
I have watched your videos, wow youre a great teacher !!
Again a sweet video !!
Love the airhammer parts hahaha 35 min is so funny
Greetings from the netherlands
+Lars Greefhorst haha, I hate that tool!
@@ScannerDanner ...someone should make an "air hammer" compilation.
Nice one Paul, I wondered what that forth wire did and now I know, I bought a Vantage Pro on the strenght of your video's, so now I can check all these wire's, thanks mate.
I am so lucky to watch your vedio
I am working as a mechanic.
Your teaching style is awesome.
I really appreciate your efforts.
Thank you! Welcome to my channel
Very good movie.I hope the air hammer will be nominated for the academy award for the supporting actor and you Paul win the Oscar for lead actor.
I use an air hammer 3 or 4 times a week. I HATE USING IT. Your video is still great...Thanks again...
Paul not going to lie i laughed so hard at that air chisel that was really funny. Again nice video keep em coming ! They Rock
Good morning ScannerDanner 🙏 🌄 Take care 👍 and have a great day ScannerDanner 👍
Great tutorial thank you 👍
From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧
Brilliant - the look on his face at 9:21 when the air hammer goes off.
Nice lesson there Mr Danner even though had a little bit of noise disturbance.
Paul your a legend thank you 🙏
nice, experienced & smart
THANK YOU FOR THIS AWESOME VIDEO!!!
I think the IGF only monitors the primary ignition circuit not the secondary. Great video. I have a 2006 Toyota Rav4 with a misfire coming in tomorrow and I wanted to review this circuit. I think this video also breaks the record for air hammer noise when filming.
Awesome - explanation,
Very Good Teacher.
- Don't worry bout that Air Hammer Tool.
Not a Problem -
SPECIALLY as you Stopped & made SURE we all Heard your info. Completely.
' Very Good Value. - #
I always liked to refer to the IGT signal from the ECM as the Acronym, “I’m Giving Trigger.”
For IGF, the Acronym is “I Got Fire.”
IGF should actually spelling out "I got dwelling, ready to fire" because it is not yet fired until the trailing edge of IGT.
Great lecture ! Good explanation of 2 wire, 3 wire and 4 wire COP, Interesting how different manufacturers choose different designs.
My swag is IGF is IGnition FEEDBACK, Prior to installing the new coil, I would have guessed that IGF went low when a certain current was exceed and then back high when second current threshold was exceeded. That aftermarket coil sure has a different looking IGF signature and make my theory look incorrect.
Paul,with all the noise interruptions, I must write that you have the patience of a saint. lol... great instruction thank you.
+John Kimmel haha not really, I just know the camera is on me :)
+ScannerDanner I want to thank you for said camera and for what you do.I will be subscribing to your premium channel. I have been in this business forty years now and honestly have been getting by on the seat of my pants.I have always been weak in electrical understanding and that is all my own fault. That being said at my age I can no longer survive on turning wrenches and such. As I have learned much just observing your brother and you, I have a new hunger to be a complete automobile technician.
+John Kimmel contact me thru my website and I'll give you a coupon for a free month of my premium channel. Thanks again !
First of all Thanks Danner my escope ain't got that much detail, but fast and easy to use
beautifull video bro thanks
That air hammer at 35:00! Lol
I feel your frustration but it is funny the timing lol
Definitely the guy with the air hammer love to interrupt you. Really good Thanks for your help.
Thank you Ruben!
you are the best excellent job
You are great thank you paul.
Nice vid learning a lot
That air hammer is hilarious. 😆
SUPER VIDEO ... Excellent..
One more thing: the explanation of the 3rd and 4th wire were excellent. I'm not exactly the "smartest peanut in the turd" (Bloodhound Gang) and so if I get it, I think most people will too.
Thank you paul.
God has bless you thank you Sir ScannerDanner
PROFICIENT Sir ScannerDanner
From Nick Ayivor from London England 🇬🇧
Great teacher
Thanks for sharing
The air hammer is one of my favorite tools because it means I’m done playing and something is about to get my frustrations taken out on it 😂 . But yeah I can see how you would hate it in this setting while trying to teach a class.
35:18. so funny about the air hammer. All kidding aside though great video and great teaching thanks.
Finally stopped procrastinating and bought your book.
I have the theory that our air compressor is hooked up to our telephone system. When the phone is answered, the compressor comes on within 30 seconds.
I have watched this video a few times and thought why am I watching this I have a verus not a pico scope. The procedures you are using here can be used on a verus. Great Video. Who needs T.V. when you have SCANNER DANNER. Got to get book and go premium.
Thanks so much JD!
Paul,
Thanks for reply referencing '86 GT Stang. I'm going to double check all the basic parameters/voltage readings on the coil and the ignition module. Basically the engine dies while in idle, usually takes a few minutes. Especially if run for 10 minutes, turn ignition off and restart immediately. Normal RPMs are about 600 prior to engine stall. She cranks up all the time, during these situations but dies soon after. Compression is about 175 average on cold crank. I have a pressure gauge on the rail and it's 40 PSI rock solid even during the time before it dies. I probed wit a Scope on the computer/ignition module "driver" to the low side of the coil. When the engine starts dying, RPMs dropping, the 12v at the negative coil end increases in time directly coinciding with the drops in RPMs and eventual stall. I think maybe the magnetic pickup in the distributor is acting up and not triggering the coil to discharge and therefore causing the stalling.
Once again thanks for the reply, I will recon firm all my parameters and let you know. I do have a video recording of the scope waveform while this problem is occurring.
Pete
Pete, I believe what you are describing is the ignition dwell time being adjusted by the module due to very low RPM and may be completely normal.
Refresh my memory on this ignition system. Does it have a vacuum hose going to the distributor? Is it a magnetic pick-up or hall-effect in the distributor (2 or 3 wire pick-up)?
Yes, but we want to do this with a test light, not a straight jumper wire. We may even want to add a resistor in series to drop the voltage as the base circuit typically only needs 4v to turn the transistor on. I have used a test light with no issues but it is something to think about,
...BEST VIDEO EVER ON THIS!!! A couple of questions:
1) Is the IGT signal compatible with 5V logic (TTL or CMOS)
2) Does the coil fire in the HIGH or LOW pulse (ie is the pulse active high or low)?
3) ...any idea what current is required to hold the pulse active?
4) Will a 12V pulse safely fire the IGT input?
Again, thanks so much for the useful information---I LOVE your reactions to the "air hammer" segments!!
I have a couple known bad waveforms from the exact vehicle if you want me to email them. This car came in, start stall. 2 channel waveform on coil control and fuel injector showed intentional fuel injector shutdown. another waveform on coil control and IGF, showed no IGF signal on #4 coil. And finally another waveform, current ramp and coil control showed no current produced in primary.
The shop owner was pretty suprised with a coil fixing a start and stall complaint.
would liked to have seen your blood pressure graphed on the scope compared to the square wave signal of the air hammer. Great video as always
tnx for the info
Air hammer IS loud as hell, but it has saved my ASS many times. Sorry Danner! Keep up the good work my friend. Love your vids. Awesome instruction.
thanks man
good job thanks.
Man you are awesome!!!
thank you justin!
Great Video thanks! What I would have been intrested to see is would that new coil look the same on say cylinder No1 or No2 just to see if the old coil had caused a more long term issue with the PCM?
Awesome man, thank you!
Thank you Joel!
Ordering a low amps probe for my VP on payday! Great video!
Just thought of this while he was at his Smart Board, ScannerDanner is like the Tony Stark of automotive diagnostic...
Thumbs up from me! You talk a lot about aftermarket coil differences in this video. You might want to devote a whole video to the topic of aftermarket parts problems, from your own experience. That's something you won't find in many textbooks.
I love the credits at the end of this video, "starring a very annoying air hammer!" 😂
scanner you are the best
lol on the air hammer/chisel
Thanks for the comment. I truly appreciate it.
I would not argue with that line of thinking one bit. Great point. In fact I tell my students this all the time. "Don't touch it until you test it"
I guess I didn't listen to myself on this one.
I am however less concerned for "hard faults" if you know what I mean. For intermittent issues, I agree 100%
Thank you, it is another great video.
I need to know how to find something similar to a labor guide, yet it's used to charge for diagnosis tasks. I looked around but found nothing like that.
Here you go eautorepair.adtrk.biz/?a=10817&c=24&p=r&s1=
Labor guides are offered as well as service information for individual cars. Same program I use at a professional level that costs a lot of money is being offered to the DIYer for a fraction of the cost!
@@ScannerDanner
Thank you so much.
God bless you.
THANK YOU FOR PROVIDING THIS GREAT INFO PAUL. I HAVE YOUR E BOOK AND IT IS AMAZING, THIS TYPE OF VIDEOS EXPLAIN VERY WELL WHAT IS IN THE BOOK.
DO YOU KNOW WHERE CAN I GET ONE OF THAT AIR HAMMERS SOUNDS POWERFUL??
:-) I was laughing during the editing too. figured a good laugh for others would be welcome, and I guess I figured right huh?
thanks again for the video on the wideband O2!
Great video as always. Paul would this testing method apply to a 4 wire coil pack with transistor inside coil (not COP)?
Thanks brakedd. I just sent you a thank you email.
I am with you on the air compressor. never fails
Paul, Thanks for these great videos. I am an ASE master tech with my L1 and 19 years experience. I have been reviewing some fundamentals lately and your videos help tremendously. I share your sentiment that maybe only 5 to 10 percents of techs in the field perform diagnosis properly. I appreciate all the case studies. Thanks again.
I'm glad you think so. At times it doesn't feel that way to me. :-)
Hey paul, is it possible to see 4 wire ignition coils primary or secondary voltage waveforms on a scope. the only way i think i could see secondary is hooking up an extension wire between the coil to the plug and using an inductive pick up? would that make an accurate test? thanks.
it was amusing to see paul get annoyed with the hammer drill lol
Lovely
thank bro
you got hammered
First, thank you for sharing your knowledge. It's greatly appreciated. One thing I haven't seen is in a case like this: If it turns out that the coil isn't being commanded on, what next? I'm assuming the wire integrity would have to be checked up to the computer. If that checks out, do you attempt a re-flash or would that warrant a new PCM? Thanks again.
Hi Paul, what software are you using on the smart board, love the way you highlight things
Man that air hammer guy is just fucking with u in this one Danner.
Thanks man. If you need more info on the eBook fill out your name and email on my website.
Keep watching, more videos to come.
Thanks bro