the "klingon" sounds like he has a cold. Starfleets idea of negotiating is literally to bring a fleet and tell the Klingons to talk to us or fuck off. not very diplomatic.
Yeah. And the worse thing is that it was so easy to fix to. You don't need the fleet, just one ship would have done. Use the Klingons that we've come to know and love, and if you want the new look and talk of purity, and have this new look them make them a new branch like the originally advertised, and then have the Fed. Captain do what every other Starfleet captain has done, be friendly and open, and then have the Klingons take that as a threat to their Warrior culture. Not only is it simple, but it fits the existing history better.
is it strange watching that scene play out made me sympathetic to the Klingons? I'm sure I still need more context, but everything the federation did made them look threatening to the Klingons. And my knowledge on the Klingons is surface level at best.
"We're explorers, not soldiers." See, I remember a certain captain who began a mission only 10 years later who clearly understood that he was supposed to serve both roles.
@hiabo ermias Wrong. Star Trek has always had social justice undertones. That is completely different from SJW's trying to ram their bullshit ideology down other people throats at every available opportunity.
@@fatbap I think the issue is that SJW has always existed in trek and the real world but it wasn't until recently that it went off the rails. Interestingly around the same time Trump turned up So basically societal stress and collapse of basic respect has caused it.
@Nate Day Oh, you had never heard of it, so it must not have existed. I guess Taparelli D'Azeglio must not have coined the term in the 1840s then since the great Nate Day hadnt heard it. I suppose that kiss between Kirk and Uhura must not have happened in 1968, one of the first interracial kisses in TV history. Nor the "Patterns of the Force" episode in 1968 either, where the Enterprise defeats the Nazis. I guess it didnt feature a Japanese American barely 20 years after WW2, nor a Russian at the height of the cold war. How about you get a fucking clue what youre talking about before you try to explain things to other people. Just because you dont understand what the term actually means, doesnt detract a single iota from the facts.
If your goal is link and maintain different civilizations in peace, in a meaningful and productive exchange of cultures, then destroying all of those civilizations through Borg's Collectivism is the polar opposite of the Federation. Borg absorb and erase any culture it comes across, turning everything into Cubes. Collectivism is the opposite of Individualism. Communism and Socialism the opposites of Republics. The question gets more muddled when you compare simple democracy vs socialism or communism. Simple majority democracy is 3 wolves and 2 sheep deciding what is for dinner ! :-)
If you look at the USSR, it was undemocratic but legally a Republic (that's what the R stands for) so I would disagree with the wording of your statement.
@@IamMrRand00m953 a "Republic" can be Democratic constitutional Socialist or communist so the "R" in USSR means nothing in reality Arguably even the Roman empire was a republic the difference is how they operate (also The R in USSR is a plural as in "Republics" the important part here is the "U" in USSR which stands for "Union" hence why the Full name of the USSR is "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"
A theory I've had for the Borg is that they were expanding slowly through their history (based off the species designations and a couple scenes in Voyager) but after encountering the Enterprise and seeing the "Q flash" and losing the scouting cube they begin an immediate and rapid expansion towards Federation space.
That's a petty good theory. It's likely if we expand on that idea this was done for as much benefit of the federation as it was distract the Borg. The Borg would see the federation as a power not unlike itself devided by chaos and indervigulity yes but working towards a United goal. And they would become opessed all that lovely tech to gobble up all those trillion just waiting to become drones. It's to good to be true. And so I think it was the Borg would focus more and more on the federation and other powers with in that area of space. Giving the powers of the delta quadrant that had being fighting the Borg time to rest rearm for the Borg to become so fixated they start to see more and more resistance on the home front then their nearly whipped by species 8472. And in get pulled out of the fire by the federation that's got to sting. So the Borg become even more focused to the point their willing to use unusually means to assimilate time travel and technology virus. But those fail. But just as their still recovering form having their arses handed to them. One ship mangers to pock them again and again with out being sting. And even managers to ignite a rebellion with in the collective itself. It's clear the federation needs to be dealt with they have done to much to be ignored. Well build a new transwarp hip with a opening right on earth door step. Then name at goes. Hi I'm captain mother fucking Janeway welcome to pain. And not only blow the transwarp net work, but kills a queen and infects them with a virus to boot. Buying the federation and other powers time.
@@shmee123ful I like this. I have been fleshing out this theory for a while on my commute (trying to figure out the history of the Borg is less stressful than thinking about grad school apparently). I should post the full version of this but the cliff notes are: -The species that sent the V'ger probe were either Borg, or proto-Borg, given that both originate on the far side of the galaxy and the probe decided to assimilate Earth when it found the planet "infested" with humans. -When the Enterprise met the Borg they were governed solely by the hive-mind. They expanded slowly, primarily when they found a species of particular or that was a threat. They likely had an interest in the Q at this time and were enough of a threat that Q yelled at his son for antagonizing the Borg. -With evidence that the Federation is in some way involved with the Q and with the long forgotten memory of V'ger, they sent a ship to probe the Federation. With interest spiking after the loss of their cube, they launched additional missions. -After the individuality virus (I think this is what it should be called) fractures the collective, the collective does what it always does in an emergency, it selects a queen to bring a unified voice to the collective. The Federation kills the first one, and the second (Voyager's Queen) is thusly obsessed with Earth until she is killed by Janeway. This also has a nice storytelling element because the probe Voyager was accidentally transported across the galaxy (and back in time) only to return inside a proto-Borg probe. While the starship Voyager is transported across the galaxy only to return inside a Borg sphere. There is more that could be filled out, but I think it answers many of the questions the community has with evidence from the shows and movies.
@@shmee123ful The idea that part of the reason for introducing the Borg to the Federation relieved pressure on the native delta quadrant species. I wonder how purposeful that was, or if it were a happy accident.
Well there is a theory that the cube was already was on his way into Federation Space (or to be be precise sector 001) because they found the lost voyager drone (not the spaceship but the drone that was sent in the late 20th century). And in the end the ealry meeting with the Borg was kind of a mixxed bag. Why? Well for the negativ humans encouterted the Borg way ealier then they would have had and lost a huge part the the fleet in the battle of wolf 359. But thanks to that the Federation begun the production and development of battleships started. And well lets just say without the battle of wolf 359 the federation would have lost against dominion.
The borg wasn't interested in humans before, they just see them as a raw resource something to be mined at a later day. But after that encounter, they saw a glimpse of Q's power and the borg thought the humans had some unexplained power. That's when they started to assimilate humanity.
I could have sworn that this wasn't the first time the Federation encountered the Borg. I thought the Borg were hinted at in the finale of TNG season 1 the Neutral Zone when they referred to the disappearance of star bases on both sides of the Romulan/ Federation neutral zone.
The colonies on the neutral zone were 'scooped' up by the Borg, but the Romulan empire and the Federation didn't know it was them yet (Remember the Borg was probably slipping in and out through transwarp conduits). That's why Q flung the Enterprise light years away to give the Federation an early glimpse of the Borg before they were caught with their pants down and it be too late.
Lore, prior to the Q enforced meeting between the Federation and the Borg at J-25, the Borg already knew about the Federation. They had taken entire colonies and outposts along the Neutral Zone, both Romulan and Federation, months before the encounter in Q Who.
The Federation did change the Borg. Until the Borg encountered the Federation, they only assimilated entire species. Assimilating individuals was a waste of resources and time. After they encountered the Enterprise, that all changed.
That pew pew pew pew weapons fire is as embarrassing as the STD klingons. For what its worth that Klingon speech is very very powerful. If they had of managed the klingons properly and kept that dialogue with proper ships/weapons fire etc it could have been a hell of a scene to kick a series off with. However what we got is pathetic and looking at the STD Season 2 trailer i'm not seeing that they have learnt enough to make it a proper Star Trek series. Good video Lore, I like the two sides of the same coin analogy. The Federation in a way are even scarier than the Borg as they are equally adept at using public propaganda, sneak tactics and subterfuge to get what they want. They pursue countless races to add to the federation at the cost of what makes a civilization unique. The Borg on the other hand are like a storm they will come at you batter you, wear you down and ultimately take what they want if you cant repel them. The Federation however you cant repel them once they have you in sight then its goodbye.
That was my first, and hopefully last, exposure to ST:D. Pew pew pew... made me think I was watching a Star Wars clip instead of Star Trek. Your last sentence brought this DS9 clip to mind: th-cam.com/video/4hdiuRMK3UQ/w-d-xo.html
I know this is largely off topic of the individual video, but I wanted to mention I LOVE your video "closing" statement. One of my favorite authors, Thomas King, wrote a book called The Truth About Stories and it's always been one of my favorites. And to quote King, "The truth about stories is that that's all we are." Easily the most influential book to me in my research and writing career.
I think Q didn't care about the strength of the cube because Q could end it at any time, and it is entirely possible that the cube was completely conjured up by Q for the amusement of belittling Picard and Riker. As for changing the Borg, compared to all the other assimilated worlds before getting to earth, eh, not as much. Every encounter is bound to leave a mark on the Borg and I'm sure they encountered many other worlds on the way to earth. As for changing Starfleet, I'm sure some politicians were not sleeping as well at night after hearing about the Borg, however, I don't think it made a major change in how Starfleet was managed. Great vid Lore and crew. B)
I think the cube acted like it did better cause it was being cautious. An unidentified ship just, for the lack of a better word, magically appeared on your sensors. The Borg had no idea what they were dealing with initially and if the can just appear out of nowhere, how do they know that the Enterprise-D can't just one shot the cube out of existence like Species 8472 did. It would be reasonable to make the assumption that the Borg were aware of highly advanced species and beings like Q or the Traveler or Douwd and the Enterprise could have been a ship of an unencountered highly advanced species. So once they analyze the Enterprise, they saw it as not a threat and started to assimilate. Since the Borg had no experience with UFP capital ships at that point, they weren't adapted to the weapons, so the Enterprise faired well enough until Q sent them back to the Alpha Quadrant. I don't think the exposure changed the Borg fundamentally, but it did speed them up since they now knew about what was out there. I got the impression from ST:V that the Borg assimilated everything worth assimilating in their local area and didn't know where to go and what's out there and exploration in general is time and resource heavy. So what they learned from the first encounter with the Enterprise warrant further exploration and investigation into the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Once they had a firm grasp of what was there, the invested the necessary time and resources to assimilate the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
The exposure did change one thing, Before that encounter the borg weren't interested in humans as a target for assimilation, they just wanted the raw materials the technology. But after that encounter, they wanted to assimilate humans to find out what makes them tick. Why enterprise had Q powers. The borg wanted to know why the Q see so much potential in humans. They wanted the human mojo that the Q seem to admire.
I’ve always wondered (well, for the last six months I’ve wondered) why T’Kuvma called the Andorians “filthy” while leaving the other three unmodified. I don’t imagine that he was speaking literally. Based on ENT, I thought Shran’s people were quite civilized and cultured. If I absolutely _had_ to apply a pejorative to one of the founding species, it would be the Tellarites. They’re quite rough and unpleasant.
Love the addition of clips. Solidifies the points being made. Great work as usual. The "old" Borg were much more of a threat, imo. Unstoppable, determined, and resolute. Much like the federation, specifically humans. The "new" Borg seemed to be a change the writers determined was the best going forward in the series, how do you stop and enemy that uses your own people against you and can take damsge from the strongest weapons in your arsenal and yet still gain on you at your max speed.
Thank you!!!! I thought I was the only one who made this connecting. The Federation and the Borg really are the same, they are only diffrent in method.
The difference us the Federation preserves individuality and rights while the Borg has no use for those. There is a parallel in today's Conservative vs Progressive struggle.
The main difference between the Federation and the Borg is agency. The Federation values individuality and the choices that individuals make. Also, the member planets within the Federation keep their own culture as can be seen easily with throughout TNG, DS9 and VOY so no member planet loses their distinctiveness. Finally, joining the Federation is a choice and in order to join you have to be compatible with main Federation ideals and if you're not then you just not accepted. The Federation doesn't force anyone to join them or to become part of some collective. With the Borg, you have no agency. You are forced to become a part of them and you lose all sense of self and culture. The only real thing the Borg and the Federation have in common in just self-betterment but I would argue that it isn't really enough to say they are two sides of the same coin.
@@TheJarric: Do you have examples? Prerequisites for joining the Federation are: 1: Warp Drive capable 2: One state government 3: The planet's ideals most be compatible with the Federation's of peaceful co-existence. It doesn't have to be same, just compatible.
@@simontmnThey get to keep their autonomy. By the Federation's own charter, they can't be forced to join and the Federation most respect their sovereignty.
I want to look at the first encounter from a different perspective. That is the writer and creation side. At first encounter they had been no canon set yet for the borg so their power and tech had to be realative to the plot set for this first encounter. Therefore their technology had to appear quite strong to set the theme of the plot. But not so overwhelming to overshadow the establishment canon of the time period. Thats why in the time frame considerable time passed before the borg reappeared in Federation space. This alowing both sides to up the game from a tech standpoint. This i think explains why the borg appeared more vulnerable at first contact versus the borg seen in the first borg incursion into the Federation. Must remember Archer had little trouble destroying a borg ship in his borg encounter. That was with much weaker weapons of the first NX Class ship. So the borg didnt have or at least use that vast power we later saw but mere adapted gheir strength through encountering stronger opposition just as the Federation does. My guess from a lore standpoint the borg vastly increased their tech between the first contact via Q and first incursion. This vast increase in my opinion probably due to the first encounter of the borg with species 8472. Which occured between the events with the Federation.
I personally have a headcanon that the Borg Queen is a result of Hugh. Hugh himself said that when he reentered the borg it causes a disruption. Borg wanted and needed a voice to stabilized the chaos. For Hugh and the others that Lore found the stabilizing voice was Lore. For the rest of the collective, it was the Queen. It would explain how the Borg Queen operates in Voyager episodes as well as 000. Of course, this headcanon threw out the window with the writers Reconned the Borg Queen into the origins od 7of9 and Locutus of Borg.
Because i am not one of the writers i can theorize that this cube was near or out of the edge of Borg space. It could have been on a scouting mission to acquire information about the local populations or perhaps other resources. By analyzing the ship they could get a good sample of the technological level of the local populations and other information from the computers taken from the ship. They would only need to assimilate a few of those on the ship to know if they were worthy of assimilation.
Boo... TH-cam dropped me out of chat when the video ended to watch a different video, lol. Anyways, I totally agree, classic Borg quantifiably differs from modern Borg. Also, yes, Q was intervening likely using the Federation for a proxy war to prevent the Borg from becoming powerful enough to threaten the Q. Finally, yes... the Federation is deeply terrifying in many subtle, and frightening ways (reeducation camps , forced and enforced behavior modification through mind control chemical additives and other means , and much more). Liked the new show, and looking forward to the next one. Keep up the good work.
I get the feeling that the encounter changed both groups. I also feel Q (even with all the issues) is really trying to teach. It wasn't till the Borg and the Dominion that Starfleet and the Federation realized they'd forgotten how to defend themselves. The other threats came and went. Mothballing or dismantling their fighting capabilities soon after. I believe he saw them stuck in a loop or cycle. He wanted to shake them out of it while they still had some memory of how to fight. Sure it came at a heavy price. But how big would that price have been later on? He was a pain in the ass (as all good Q should be). Yet they learned things from him. They weren't just tests. They were lessons.
I think that the writers and producers hasn't yet decided what the Borg rely were yet. So they showed the Borg going after the federation tech only. OR, the Borg were curious who this be race was and went after the ship first to determine if this so and crew were with assimilating. Of course et don't out in other Star Trek series that the Borg and elements of the federation have crossed paths before. Enterprise - Voyager, I'm looking at you.
There's nothing in cannon to support the idea the first Borg encounter was a weaker cube. The closest examination of that cube and other cubes was made in BOBW episode where data said he couldn't verify if it was the same ship they had encountered. My thing is the chronology of the Raven. So Federation scientists had already knew of the Borg, studied them but never informed Starfleet? Hmmm
To answer your question, the first cube we saw was a script for the Borg that wasnt completely fleshed out yet, it seemed. Even the costumes were not completely finished, as the crew only had a week to bring the borg to life for television. So I think the concept was their, but they were so pressed for time they just had to just go with what they had. A good read when researching this was this website: www.forgottentrek.com/creating-the-borg/ . Check it out to read about how they did it and how it was eventually fleshed out into what they are today!
Assimilation or Extermination, I'd be interested in a comparison between the Borg & the Daleks, (not exactly a who would win vs debate or anything), looking at their motives, agenda, tactics. abilities, intelligence, weapons tech, etc. and how might they react to each other in an encounter?
I wonder if it's possible that the borg cube they encounter was not an "Assimilation" ship. We often hear mention, atleast in voyager if I'm remembering correctly of "Type whatever Assimilation Vessel" so on and so forth. or Tactical vessel or whatever the designations are, and there are plenty of beta resources that can show different types of ships for different purposes, an example being, we often see voyager encounter the borg but only sometimes do the borg actually attempt to assimilate them, most of the time it's geared more towards destroying voyager, the borg have ample opportunities to beam hundreds of drones onto voyager, same with the borg cube that the enterprise encounters, they have ample opportunity to beam over thousands of drones on board but they don't, this leads me to believe each ship has a different mandate. For example when voyager attacks the tactical cube, their shields were down, that tactical cube had several thousand borg onboard, they could have assimilated voyager. The same thing could be said with the NX-01 in regeneration, their primary mission was to warn the borg of the 22nd century of the federation, not assimilate it, they purposefully went after weaker targets and tried to escape, they never tried actively to assimilate the NX-01 just slow it down. And Hugh is a good example of the borg not trying to assimilate, the mandate was to survive not to assimilate. I think the borg cube they encountered was more of a transport or patrol cube, not an assimilation variant, a variant that's probably set up for some kind of mining operations or maybe assimilation once the defenses have been neutralized. The ship seemed to have very little defense, but it had the means to hold the ship, cut it up like it was carving a turkey, other cubes we see, even the one that tries to assimilate earth, had at least some sort of subspace field, better weaponry, and better adaption technology as well as the mandate to assimilate, so my theory would have to be that this ship just simply wasn't equipped, or perhaps it was set to be adapted to a weaker species and wasn't built to encounter something on par with the federation tech at the time, I've theorized before that the borgs adaptations are per ship as the adaptations probably don't all work together, so this ship perhaps was adapted for weaponry unlike that of the federations, or even adapted to deal with a threat where it didn't want to assimilate it. And the reason the cube that they sent to earth only really took picard? It wasn't meant to win, it was more of a "Lets just see what happens" Cube, because we already know the borg have a transwarp aperture right at earth, why not just send like 10 cubes? Perhaps they were waiting for something? Perhaps they knew the Federation would advance and they needed something the Federation would have in the future? Perhaps the borg are aware of the timeline and are actively manipulating it to suit their needs?
Remember that right before TNG begins the Romulan Conflict happened in an all out war Situation. (Ref that episode of O‘Brians old captain going rogue) So the Romulans did poke their head out and it resulted in Picard being hesitant in regards to children aboard.
I think the difference with that first cube was simply the writers had not fully fleshed out the Borg and how they operate. So the Borg continued to develop and their methods defined better after the episode. Hence the difference in tactics over time. They simply hadn't developed the Borg well enough in this first use scenario. The Queen being the biggest one that really didn't make sense, but writing is much easier when you have a single point of reference.
Copyright issues aside, I would prefer the clips used to be shorter to focus more on your commentary as I think that better maintains pacing. Maybe pull out a specific line or shot, but I definitely think this is a case of less is more.
I'd imagine what really got the BORGs attention was the "technology" (Q) that enabled the Enterprise to arrive and leave as it did and the disappointment in not finding "it". There's two things about the BORG ship I thought was wrong. After the Enterprise escapes the cube "turns" to pursue, Why? I'n my opinion the cube shouldn't be face forward (yes, more menacing) but point forward to bring more weapons, ect... to bear?
Yeah, the first encounter with humankind changed the Borg. Their initial communications lacked many of the catchphrases so many recite upon Borg reference. Their languaging shifted.
Hmm. One could call it a golden age, sure. However, I'd also term it "the age of arrogance" or Hell...there are a bunch of terms I could use but the one I was looking for specifically...is just gone from my head when I need it. Damn it!
The Borg were already heading towards Earth after they encountered Captain Archer and the Enterprise NX-01. Q flung the Enterprise-D into the Cube's path to give them a heads up warning that the Borg were coming and needed to be ready to fight.
The oddities of the first Cube from TNG remind me of the first Ferengi from TNG. The writers just didn’t have I figured out yet. Loophole: if the Ferengi ship was so advanced, presumably from buying alien technology, why doesn’t anybody and everybody go to them when they want to start a war? Is this how the Schmitar became so advanced?
Maybe there was a newer Cube closer Q could have some too. Maybe just the Borg send older ships further out into space 2 keep the losses are minimal. And keep the newer ones closer to home base? But when they met species eight four 7 2 are they the same Cube says this one?
Q's Borg lesson = resounding yes. Changing the Borg? You mean what happened every time they assimilated anything? So yes. The change (for obvious terror in fiction) to assimilating biology along with technology was big but not outside of linear progression.
Thing is J-25 was not the Federation and Borg's first encounter. Both are aware of each other by time travel shenanigans. If we take Discovery as Canon the Mirror Universe was kept secret for much of Starfleet. That the crew of the Enterprise no suffix has not heard of it. By the same token Picard and crew is unaware even after they saw the Borg's handywork on the Neutralzone. Meaning the Federation knew but never told even the flagship of the fleet. Keeping it secret from the Romulans and their allies the Klingons. Which explains how they already have a Borg expert in Shelby. It wouldn't surprise me if Section 31 has been preparing for centuries for the Borg while the Federation Council hid its head in the sand even when El Aurean refugees came in as proof of the threat.
SECTION 31 Isn't CANON SECTION 31 was created for 1 reason ALEXANDER SIDDIG told the producers of ST : DS9 " I'M SICK OF BEING THE 2nd JAKE SISKO ( boring and useless ) GIVE BASHIR SOMETHING TO DO OR I QUIT " it was because the 007 BASHIR storylines were cancelled after the BOND LICENSE HOLDERS SUED PARAMOUNT DR BASHIR had no useful purpose ST : ENTERPRISE did the samething with MALCOLM REED another WORTHLESS USELESS CHARACTER .
So how would the time travel elements work here? We know the events of First Contact, and then the thawed out Borg in Enterprise send off a transmission to the Delta Quadrant, so is this a predestination paradox type of thing? I mean the Borg were already coming for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, so Q’s actions just gave them the Federation to focus on. Although from non canon sources it seems the Borg have it in for the Romulans. Anyway time travel talk hurts my head.
When the cube first encountered the enterprise they weren't interested in humans because they see humans as substandard. That changed after that encounter because the enterprise was able to escape the borg without explanation. That made the borg curious about the nature of humanity and how they were able to accomplish the unexplainable. That's when they started to assimilate humans en mass.
Is it possible that the borg were the nanites created by wesley crusher and when they were expelled from the ship they somehow timetraveled to the delta quadrant lost and alone all they could do was assimilate and q needed the enterprise bc they made and the q are afraid that borg will eventually assimilate the q
Considering how the Borg are I don't think it would matter if that specific Cube was one day old or one century old, I believe they would have kept everything as up to date as possible. So there would be no performance differences between Cubes of various ages like that. As for the Cube only being interested in the Enterprise itself that could have simply been because the Collective had not had the time to really process all of the information they had taken from D's computers. To me it always seemed like every full sized Federation ship, base, etc would have, with the possible exception of classified information obviously, the entirely of the collective knowledge of the Federation stored within it somehow. I imagine even for something like the Borg Collective that could take a while to process and really comprehend what it truly all means. Add into the fact that we really do not know the amount of time it takes from a single Borg Drone downloading some information to the entire Collective, not just the one ship or installation that Drone is from but the actual entire Collective, to have that information. By the time of this episode the Borg are spread out all over at least one Quadrant of the Galaxy, there would have to be some sort of delay even with Subspace messaging. I could easily see this Cube downloading all of that information, sending it off to the rest of the Collective, and in the mean time deciding "The Ship is worth taking but the inhabitants not so much", then when they hear back from the rest of the Collective they get told "You decided wrong, the inhabitants are also worth assimilating, that is now the stranded procedure when encountering any United Federation of Planets equipment and personal." Sorry for the wall of text.
We look at it as Q helping the Federation or helping himself by using the federation. But also, what about the Borg ? Could Q, in his multidimensional way, be challenging the bored Borg by bringing to Them a shiny new toy to play with?
First of all one needs to consider the “in canon” and the “story writing” elements of the Borg separately (and only then attempt to reconcile the two). A frequent theme depicts the Borg as the “enemy” … a requirement even for the second encounter with them. But the Borg as originally presented was more of a force of nature. By the way, as a side note and your clips reminded me of that, there are a lot of strange plot points with the original Borg episode and like most of these plot points of the TNG series wind up being butchered to death. Q is practically treating Guinan as an equal and she in turn seems to have a Q like detachment about “humanity.” But you can’t defeat a “force of nature” and using the Borg as originally presented is like having sailing ship constantly going through hurricanes. So it’s clear that the Borg needed to be altered to be more of a “villain.” So on the “in canon” side, did the encounter “change” the Borg? That is hard to say but it is clear that from this encounter the Borg did change dramatically and this change eventually led to the downfall of the Borg.
I think it's complicated. I think the Borg was changed more by the Q than the Federation at the first meeting. Assuming a ship was already coming due to the communication from First Contact the Borg were already on their way but they weren't in a hurry. However imagine the Borg's surprise when they find a ship that traveled across the galaxy in a matter of moments and lands in their space. This might explain why they only cared about the ship at this point because it appears to have a technology they don't have and can't match. So they just wanted as much information of the ship as they could get before it left faster than they are able to chase. So they might've thought the Q flash was Federation tech and didn't come from space gods. And when the ship left and they didn't discover the tech and saw it went towards where that mysterious message from future Borg sent in the past so they decided to speed up their investigation. I guess it all comes down to would the first cube have arrived by the time of the Dominion War so the Federation would have had military ships or would they still have showed up at the same time and the Federation would've just had no idea what it was or what it was doing?
Here is my guess in why the borg only wanted the ship at the first interaction. While the ship and the technology were judged worthy of assimilation, humans and the crew were not at that time. We know that species can be rejected for assimilation like the Kazon. The fact that they proved resourceful at the first encounter made them worthy of assimilation.
Picard and crew was transported there accidentally though. An I'm sure Time Trek force was monitoring it, detected it and planned to fix it after Picard showed they was gonna get home on they own. The Borg DIDN'T care, made themselves better at others expense routinely even on purpose to everyone in the universe EXCEPT them and WANTED the timeline screwed up if I remember that Picard scene right.. was kinda the thing with that movie.
Though probably not intended, the Enterprise Episode "Regeneration" fixes the timeline to make the Hanson's mission relevant before the TNG episode "Q Who?"
Also just another comment. a bit off topic, I notice in the Discovery clip, the Andorians get the epithet filthy I wonder if the Andorians had given the Klingons a few bloody noses in the past..
It may have to do with how the Andorian's gave them the bloody noses as well. The history as we know it states that after their first encounter Vulcan just immediately fired on any Klingon ship they came in contact with very straight forward. I think we can assume that the Tellarites were not seen as much of a threat to the Klingons. The Andorian's may have used what the Klingons would hypocritically deem underhanded tactics like ambuses etc. Also it may be like Earth being the closest of the 4 major Federation powers to Romulan Space the Andorian's might be the closest to Klingon space. Whilst the seem to be quite disparaging of the Andorian it's likely they don't speak any better of the Humans. Or it could be that to Klingons blue is a sign of disease or uncleanness.
You left out the most important parallel, and that is the fact that the very first Borg drones where in fact Starfleet officers, from Columbia, NX-02. Lost during the Earth-Romulam war. They made their way to a Dyson sphere like system, where they encountered a reclusive species that sought to observe the galaxy without being themselves observed. This species technology closely revolved around the use of nanites. They offered the crew safe harbor, but refused to let them leave. An escape attempt by the crew triggered a cataclysmic explosion, creating a nebula, and sending parts of the crew back in time, and the survivors cast across the Universe. Several crew where sent to a world with one of the aliens, who used it's nanites to take control of the 'dangerous' humans, and began trying to rebuild the greatness that was once her species.
The board had cloning technology, so they didn't really need to assimilate individuals in order to replace lost numbers. My guess is that the only assimilate new races that they encounter which are seen to be a value, but they fall short of outright destroying those civilizations because by leaving them intact it allows those civilizations to develop new technologies which the board can then acquire to improve themselves. In this way it makes perfect sense why they would be interested in the ship, rather than the people. However, once the Borg became aware that the people on the ship were like nothing they have encountered before they would have a renewed interest in assimilation of individuals. They would probably only make a point of destroying a planetary civilization if that Civilization posed a potential threat to the Borg. At least that's my take on it.
An interesting video, but the cube q sent the enterprise to I feel didn't get to send any very important information. Yes they (when attacked the federation) knew of the enterprise and Picard. But they had been rading and gathering information for some time on the federation. So they knew the enterprise was the flagship, and Picard was the captain that's why they made him lacutis. U think the first cube encountered was either made by q or q stopped it transmitting its information. If he had not then the enterprise's weapons when first encountered the wolf 359 cube wouldn't of had any affect, but they did somewhat. Why would q let the Borg get information on starfleet when he was trying to protect/give Intel to starfleet. (Hope I explained that right, have dyslexia so putting what I think into writing is difficult)
The Borg and the Federation are both, for lack of a better term, expansionist empires. The main difference is that the Borg expand through conquest, while the Federation expands, at least primarily, through diplomacy. Both seek to grow by incorporating other species, cultures, and technologies. As far as Q's desire, my opinion is a bit mixed. Q is a trickster archetype, from a similar vein as Loki. While his influence would serve to instill humility and enlightenment, I feel that he acts more so to be entertained. His interactions with "lower species" is done out of cruel curiosity to see them squirm and react, and less to actually help anyone. And considering how far the Enterprise was from Borg space, the Federation and the Borg would not have made contact for years. Though it could be argued that without this rude awakening, the Federation, and the Alpha quadrant would have been woefully underdeveloped during the Dominion War, thus leaving it vulnerable and weak when the Borg would have naturally appeared. This is however more likely an unexpected side effect rather than any true plan by Q.
It can't be entirely true that money no longer exists in the 24th century. The Federation has to have to have trade relations both within the Federation itself as well as outside the Federation and many of the races they encounter do still use some form of money. Barter is still a possibility, true, but standardizing on an easily convertible currency makes things so much easier which is why gold pressed latinum figures so prominently in many episodes of Deep Space Nine that involve Quark to any degree. Then we also have the problem of the existence of Federation credits, which are mentioned across all Trek series at some point, although their acceptance by merchants (even within the Federation) seems to be voluntary rather than enforceable by law.
First, nice vids. Nice to see someone stick it to these idiots every-once in a while. As for your question...no clue. The Borg seem to go back and forth in wanting technology and people. Its possible that when they encountered the Enterprise they were looking for better tech, but then discovered that the humans were just as good.
While I roll my eyes at Eddington's assertion saying the Federation is worse than the Borg (the dude is delusional enough to think the DMZ colonists could defeat Cardassia by themselves), it does bother me how disagreement is treated in Starfleet with it being looked down upon. Even Sisko, the most bad-ass Captain in the Federation, was reprimanded by Adm. Nechayev just for saying they were abandoning the DMZ Colonists. Heck, even Kirk has been ordered to force relationships with isolated species like Melkotians from TOS.
If you want to understand the origin of the Borg and what drives them you need to understand the Caeliar and how the crew of the Columbia NX-02 indirectly created them. memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Caeliar
Technically, I've always thought Q did them a favor by introducing them to the Borg. I mean, sure, it SUCKED for them, but they were given a chance to understand just how below par they were. It was a necessary humbling to get them to step their game up BEFORE they ran into the Borg proper and the Dominion.
Actually watching that STD scene makes it worse then just having it described to me.
the "klingon" sounds like he has a cold. Starfleets idea of negotiating is literally to bring a fleet and tell the Klingons to talk to us or fuck off. not very diplomatic.
Yeah. And the worse thing is that it was so easy to fix to. You don't need the fleet, just one ship would have done. Use the Klingons that we've come to know and love, and if you want the new look and talk of purity, and have this new look them make them a new branch like the originally advertised, and then have the Fed. Captain do what every other Starfleet captain has done, be friendly and open, and then have the Klingons take that as a threat to their Warrior culture. Not only is it simple, but it fits the existing history better.
It actually hurt watching that scene
is it strange watching that scene play out made me sympathetic to the Klingons? I'm sure I still need more context, but everything the federation did made them look threatening to the Klingons. And my knowledge on the Klingons is surface level at best.
Ya! Klingon nationalism!
"We're explorers, not soldiers."
See, I remember a certain captain who began a mission only 10 years later who clearly understood that he was supposed to serve both roles.
Indeed
before star trek sjw force
@hiabo ermias Wrong. Star Trek has always had social justice undertones. That is completely different from SJW's trying to ram their bullshit ideology down other people throats at every available opportunity.
@@fatbap I think the issue is that SJW has always existed in trek and the real world but it wasn't until recently that it went off the rails. Interestingly around the same time Trump turned up So basically societal stress and collapse of basic respect has caused it.
@Nate Day Oh, you had never heard of it, so it must not have existed. I guess Taparelli D'Azeglio must not have coined the term in the 1840s then since the great Nate Day hadnt heard it. I suppose that kiss between Kirk and Uhura must not have happened in 1968, one of the first interracial kisses in TV history. Nor the "Patterns of the Force" episode in 1968 either, where the Enterprise defeats the Nazis. I guess it didnt feature a Japanese American barely 20 years after WW2, nor a Russian at the height of the cold war. How about you get a fucking clue what youre talking about before you try to explain things to other people. Just because you dont understand what the term actually means, doesnt detract a single iota from the facts.
Seven of Nine once (or possibly more than once) noted that assimilation would be a much more efficient way of meeting the Federation's goals.
If your goal is link and maintain different civilizations in peace, in a meaningful and productive exchange of cultures, then destroying all of those civilizations through Borg's Collectivism is the polar opposite of the Federation. Borg absorb and erase any culture it comes across, turning everything into Cubes. Collectivism is the opposite of Individualism. Communism and Socialism the opposites of Republics. The question gets more muddled when you compare simple democracy vs socialism or communism.
Simple majority democracy is 3 wolves and 2 sheep deciding what is for dinner ! :-)
If you look at the USSR, it was undemocratic but legally a Republic (that's what the R stands for) so I would disagree with the wording of your statement.
@@IamMrRand00m953 a "Republic" can be Democratic constitutional Socialist or communist so the "R" in USSR means nothing in reality Arguably even the Roman empire was a republic the difference is how they operate (also The R in USSR is a plural as in "Republics" the important part here is the "U" in USSR which stands for "Union" hence why the Full name of the USSR is "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics"
A theory I've had for the Borg is that they were expanding slowly through their history (based off the species designations and a couple scenes in Voyager) but after encountering the Enterprise and seeing the "Q flash" and losing the scouting cube they begin an immediate and rapid expansion towards Federation space.
That's a petty good theory. It's likely if we expand on that idea this was done for as much benefit of the federation as it was distract the Borg. The Borg would see the federation as a power not unlike itself devided by chaos and indervigulity yes but working towards a United goal. And they would become opessed all that lovely tech to gobble up all those trillion just waiting to become drones. It's to good to be true. And so I think it was the Borg would focus more and more on the federation and other powers with in that area of space. Giving the powers of the delta quadrant that had being fighting the Borg time to rest rearm for the Borg to become so fixated they start to see more and more resistance on the home front then their nearly whipped by species 8472. And in get pulled out of the fire by the federation that's got to sting. So the Borg become even more focused to the point their willing to use unusually means to assimilate time travel and technology virus. But those fail. But just as their still recovering form having their arses handed to them. One ship mangers to pock them again and again with out being sting. And even managers to ignite a rebellion with in the collective itself. It's clear the federation needs to be dealt with they have done to much to be ignored. Well build a new transwarp hip with a opening right on earth door step. Then name at goes. Hi I'm captain mother fucking Janeway welcome to pain. And not only blow the transwarp net work, but kills a queen and infects them with a virus to boot. Buying the federation and other powers time.
@@shmee123ful I like this. I have been fleshing out this theory for a while on my commute (trying to figure out the history of the Borg is less stressful than thinking about grad school apparently). I should post the full version of this but the cliff notes are:
-The species that sent the V'ger probe were either Borg, or proto-Borg, given that both originate on the far side of the galaxy and the probe decided to assimilate Earth when it found the planet "infested" with humans.
-When the Enterprise met the Borg they were governed solely by the hive-mind. They expanded slowly, primarily when they found a species of particular or that was a threat. They likely had an interest in the Q at this time and were enough of a threat that Q yelled at his son for antagonizing the Borg.
-With evidence that the Federation is in some way involved with the Q and with the long forgotten memory of V'ger, they sent a ship to probe the Federation. With interest spiking after the loss of their cube, they launched additional missions.
-After the individuality virus (I think this is what it should be called) fractures the collective, the collective does what it always does in an emergency, it selects a queen to bring a unified voice to the collective. The Federation kills the first one, and the second (Voyager's Queen) is thusly obsessed with Earth until she is killed by Janeway.
This also has a nice storytelling element because the probe Voyager was accidentally transported across the galaxy (and back in time) only to return inside a proto-Borg probe. While the starship Voyager is transported across the galaxy only to return inside a Borg sphere. There is more that could be filled out, but I think it answers many of the questions the community has with evidence from the shows and movies.
@@shmee123ful The idea that part of the reason for introducing the Borg to the Federation relieved pressure on the native delta quadrant species. I wonder how purposeful that was, or if it were a happy accident.
Well there is a theory that the cube was already was on his way into Federation Space (or to be be precise sector 001) because they found the lost voyager drone (not the spaceship but the drone that was sent in the late 20th century). And in the end the ealry meeting with the Borg was kind of a mixxed bag. Why?
Well for the negativ humans encouterted the Borg way ealier then they would have had and lost a huge part the the fleet in the battle of wolf 359. But thanks to that the Federation begun the production and development of battleships started. And well lets just say without the battle of wolf 359 the federation would have lost against dominion.
The borg wasn't interested in humans before, they just see them as a raw resource something to be mined at a later day. But after that encounter, they saw a glimpse of Q's power and the borg thought the humans had some unexplained power. That's when they started to assimilate humanity.
Those are not Klingon's in Start Trek: Discovery, those are petaQ's
does that ptak have a clogged nose or something?
My targ is more Klingon!
And PURE!
Those klingons are suffering form klingons aids
Klingorcs
I could have sworn that this wasn't the first time the Federation encountered the Borg. I thought the Borg were hinted at in the finale of TNG season 1 the Neutral Zone when they referred to the disappearance of star bases on both sides of the Romulan/ Federation neutral zone.
The colonies on the neutral zone were 'scooped' up by the Borg, but the Romulan empire and the Federation didn't know it was them yet (Remember the Borg was probably slipping in and out through transwarp conduits). That's why Q flung the Enterprise light years away to give the Federation an early glimpse of the Borg before they were caught with their pants down and it be too late.
Lore, prior to the Q enforced meeting between the Federation and the Borg at J-25, the Borg already knew about the Federation. They had taken entire colonies and outposts along the Neutral Zone, both Romulan and Federation, months before the encounter in Q Who.
Which in and of itself was a retcon as the bad guys that orginally were gonna be the borg were changed.
The Federation did change the Borg. Until the Borg encountered the Federation, they only assimilated entire species. Assimilating individuals was a waste of resources and time. After they encountered the Enterprise, that all changed.
I’ve always loved your content. Being able to use the actual clips just makes it even better.
One of my favourite videos by you so far.
That pew pew pew pew weapons fire is as embarrassing as the STD klingons. For what its worth that Klingon speech is very very powerful. If they had of managed the klingons properly and kept that dialogue with proper ships/weapons fire etc it could have been a hell of a scene to kick a series off with. However what we got is pathetic and looking at the STD Season 2 trailer i'm not seeing that they have learnt enough to make it a proper Star Trek series. Good video Lore, I like the two sides of the same coin analogy. The Federation in a way are even scarier than the Borg as they are equally adept at using public propaganda, sneak tactics and subterfuge to get what they want. They pursue countless races to add to the federation at the cost of what makes a civilization unique. The Borg on the other hand are like a storm they will come at you batter you, wear you down and ultimately take what they want if you cant repel them. The Federation however you cant repel them once they have you in sight then its goodbye.
That was my first, and hopefully last, exposure to ST:D. Pew pew pew... made me think I was watching a Star Wars clip instead of Star Trek. Your last sentence brought this DS9 clip to mind: th-cam.com/video/4hdiuRMK3UQ/w-d-xo.html
You're both very un accepting of change. That's a VERY UNTREK LIKE attitude
Really good video. Even better questions.
I know this is largely off topic of the individual video, but I wanted to mention I LOVE your video "closing" statement. One of my favorite authors, Thomas King, wrote a book called The Truth About Stories and it's always been one of my favorites. And to quote King, "The truth about stories is that that's all we are." Easily the most influential book to me in my research and writing career.
I think Q didn't care about the strength of the cube because Q could end it at any time, and it is entirely possible that the cube was completely conjured up by Q for the amusement of belittling Picard and Riker.
As for changing the Borg, compared to all the other assimilated worlds before getting to earth, eh, not as much. Every encounter is bound to leave a mark on the Borg and I'm sure they encountered many other worlds on the way to earth. As for changing Starfleet, I'm sure some politicians were not sleeping as well at night after hearing about the Borg, however, I don't think it made a major change in how Starfleet was managed.
Great vid Lore and crew. B)
I think the cube acted like it did better cause it was being cautious. An unidentified ship just, for the lack of a better word, magically appeared on your sensors. The Borg had no idea what they were dealing with initially and if the can just appear out of nowhere, how do they know that the Enterprise-D can't just one shot the cube out of existence like Species 8472 did. It would be reasonable to make the assumption that the Borg were aware of highly advanced species and beings like Q or the Traveler or Douwd and the Enterprise could have been a ship of an unencountered highly advanced species. So once they analyze the Enterprise, they saw it as not a threat and started to assimilate. Since the Borg had no experience with UFP capital ships at that point, they weren't adapted to the weapons, so the Enterprise faired well enough until Q sent them back to the Alpha Quadrant.
I don't think the exposure changed the Borg fundamentally, but it did speed them up since they now knew about what was out there. I got the impression from ST:V that the Borg assimilated everything worth assimilating in their local area and didn't know where to go and what's out there and exploration in general is time and resource heavy. So what they learned from the first encounter with the Enterprise warrant further exploration and investigation into the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. Once they had a firm grasp of what was there, the invested the necessary time and resources to assimilate the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
The exposure did change one thing, Before that encounter the borg weren't interested in humans as a target for assimilation, they just wanted the raw materials the technology. But after that encounter, they wanted to assimilate humans to find out what makes them tick. Why enterprise had Q powers. The borg wanted to know why the Q see so much potential in humans. They wanted the human mojo that the Q seem to admire.
I’ve always wondered (well, for the last six months I’ve wondered) why T’Kuvma called the Andorians “filthy” while leaving the other three unmodified. I don’t imagine that he was speaking literally. Based on ENT, I thought Shran’s people were quite civilized and cultured. If I absolutely _had_ to apply a pejorative to one of the founding species, it would be the Tellarites. They’re quite rough and unpleasant.
Well, thanks for making me sit through that non-canon abomination that is STD.
Anytime
Dont be a hater
@@LoreReloaded keep including disco clips i love seeing the muh cannon crowd get triggered
@dark zeratul shhhh let people enjoy things with out being toxic
@@UltrEgoVegeta Nobody cares if someone criticising a show makes you enjoy it less. That's on you, not someone criticising it.
Love the addition of clips. Solidifies the points being made. Great work as usual.
The "old" Borg were much more of a threat, imo. Unstoppable, determined, and resolute. Much like the federation, specifically humans. The "new" Borg seemed to be a change the writers determined was the best going forward in the series, how do you stop and enemy that uses your own people against you and can take damsge from the strongest weapons in your arsenal and yet still gain on you at your max speed.
The borg has gotten woke.
I really enjoyed this video!
Thank you!!!! I thought I was the only one who made this connecting. The Federation and the Borg really are the same, they are only diffrent in method.
WE ARE THE FEDERATION WE SEEK TO IMPROVE OURSELVES! WE ARE THE BORG, WE SEEK TO IMPROVE OURSELVES!
The difference us the Federation preserves individuality and rights while the Borg has no use for those. There is a parallel in today's Conservative vs Progressive struggle.
@@jamesdaniel1376 True same end VERY different means.
The main difference between the Federation and the Borg is agency. The Federation values individuality and the choices that individuals make. Also, the member planets within the Federation keep their own culture as can be seen easily with throughout TNG, DS9 and VOY so no member planet loses their distinctiveness. Finally, joining the Federation is a choice and in order to join you have to be compatible with main Federation ideals and if you're not then you just not accepted. The Federation doesn't force anyone to join them or to become part of some collective.
With the Borg, you have no agency. You are forced to become a part of them and you lose all sense of self and culture. The only real thing the Borg and the Federation have in common in just self-betterment but I would argue that it isn't really enough to say they are two sides of the same coin.
not true fed do reguire all people to think same and act same its even membership reguire ment if you dont u dont even deserve to be saved
What happens to starfaring civilisations surrounded by Federation space?
@@simontmn assimilated or become autonomoys client state
@@TheJarric: Do you have examples?
Prerequisites for joining the Federation are:
1: Warp Drive capable
2: One state government
3: The planet's ideals most be compatible with the Federation's of peaceful co-existence. It doesn't have to be same, just compatible.
@@simontmnThey get to keep their autonomy. By the Federation's own charter, they can't be forced to join and the Federation most respect their sovereignty.
I want to look at the first encounter from a different perspective. That is the writer and creation side. At first encounter they had been no canon set yet for the borg so their power and tech had to be realative to the plot set for this first encounter. Therefore their technology had to appear quite strong to set the theme of the plot. But not so overwhelming to overshadow the establishment canon of the time period. Thats why in the time frame considerable time passed before the borg reappeared in Federation space. This alowing both sides to up the game from a tech standpoint. This i think explains why the borg appeared more vulnerable at first contact versus the borg seen in the first borg incursion into the Federation.
Must remember Archer had little trouble destroying a borg ship in his borg encounter. That was with much weaker weapons of the first NX Class ship. So the borg didnt have or at least use that vast power we later saw but mere adapted gheir strength through encountering stronger opposition just as the Federation does. My guess from a lore standpoint the borg vastly increased their tech between the first contact via Q and first incursion. This vast increase in my opinion probably due to the first encounter of the borg with species 8472. Which occured between the events with the Federation.
I personally have a headcanon that the Borg Queen is a result of Hugh. Hugh himself said that when he reentered the borg it causes a disruption. Borg wanted and needed a voice to stabilized the chaos. For Hugh and the others that Lore found the stabilizing voice was Lore. For the rest of the collective, it was the Queen. It would explain how the Borg Queen operates in Voyager episodes as well as 000. Of course, this headcanon threw out the window with the writers Reconned the Borg Queen into the origins od 7of9 and Locutus of Borg.
Because i am not one of the writers i can theorize that this cube was near or out of the edge of Borg space. It could have been on a scouting mission to acquire information about the local populations or perhaps other resources. By analyzing the ship they could get a good sample of the technological level of the local populations and other information from the computers taken from the ship. They would only need to assimilate a few of those on the ship to know if they were worthy of assimilation.
I love that scene between Picard and Q.
Boo... TH-cam dropped me out of chat when the video ended to watch a different video, lol.
Anyways, I totally agree, classic Borg quantifiably differs from modern Borg. Also, yes, Q was intervening likely using the Federation for a proxy war to prevent the Borg from becoming powerful enough to threaten the Q. Finally, yes... the Federation is deeply terrifying in many subtle, and frightening ways (reeducation camps , forced and enforced behavior modification through mind control chemical additives and other means , and much more).
Liked the new show, and looking forward to the next one.
Keep up the good work.
Great Video!
Remember everyone, Festivus is coming! Only six more days! I am working on my list of grievances.
Awesome
I get the feeling that the encounter changed both groups.
I also feel Q (even with all the issues) is really trying to teach. It wasn't till the Borg and the Dominion that Starfleet and the Federation realized they'd forgotten how to defend themselves. The other threats came and went. Mothballing or dismantling their fighting capabilities soon after. I believe he saw them stuck in a loop or cycle. He wanted to shake them out of it while they still had some memory of how to fight. Sure it came at a heavy price. But how big would that price have been later on? He was a pain in the ass (as all good Q should be). Yet they learned things from him. They weren't just tests. They were lessons.
I think that the writers and producers hasn't yet decided what the Borg rely were yet. So they showed the Borg going after the federation tech only. OR, the Borg were curious who this be race was and went after the ship first to determine if this so and crew were with assimilating. Of course et don't out in other Star Trek series that the Borg and elements of the federation have crossed paths before. Enterprise - Voyager, I'm looking at you.
There's nothing in cannon to support the idea the first Borg encounter was a weaker cube. The closest examination of that cube and other cubes was made in BOBW episode where data said he couldn't verify if it was the same ship they had encountered. My thing is the chronology of the Raven. So Federation scientists had already knew of the Borg, studied them but never informed Starfleet? Hmmm
To answer your question, the first cube we saw was a script for the Borg that wasnt completely fleshed out yet, it seemed. Even the costumes were not completely finished, as the crew only had a week to bring the borg to life for television. So I think the concept was their, but they were so pressed for time they just had to just go with what they had. A good read when researching this was this website: www.forgottentrek.com/creating-the-borg/ . Check it out to read about how they did it and how it was eventually fleshed out into what they are today!
THE BORG
were created because the
FERENGI
failed to be the
SUPER VILLAIN element
they were supposed to be
.
@@andrewwblanchard6037 Right! So intimidating... "let's make a deal! Give us your latinum in exchange for your women to rub our ears... lol
@@ironglandx3270
REMEMBER
ENCOUNTER AT FARPOINT
PICARD
TALKED ABOUT THE
FERENGI
LIKE THEY WERE THE
BIG BAD
Assimilation or Extermination, I'd be interested in a comparison between the Borg & the Daleks, (not exactly a who would win vs debate or anything), looking at their motives, agenda, tactics. abilities, intelligence, weapons tech, etc. and how might they react to each other in an encounter?
I wonder if it's possible that the borg cube they encounter was not an "Assimilation" ship. We often hear mention, atleast in voyager if I'm remembering correctly of "Type whatever Assimilation Vessel" so on and so forth. or Tactical vessel or whatever the designations are, and there are plenty of beta resources that can show different types of ships for different purposes, an example being, we often see voyager encounter the borg but only sometimes do the borg actually attempt to assimilate them, most of the time it's geared more towards destroying voyager, the borg have ample opportunities to beam hundreds of drones onto voyager, same with the borg cube that the enterprise encounters, they have ample opportunity to beam over thousands of drones on board but they don't, this leads me to believe each ship has a different mandate. For example when voyager attacks the tactical cube, their shields were down, that tactical cube had several thousand borg onboard, they could have assimilated voyager. The same thing could be said with the NX-01 in regeneration, their primary mission was to warn the borg of the 22nd century of the federation, not assimilate it, they purposefully went after weaker targets and tried to escape, they never tried actively to assimilate the NX-01 just slow it down. And Hugh is a good example of the borg not trying to assimilate, the mandate was to survive not to assimilate.
I think the borg cube they encountered was more of a transport or patrol cube, not an assimilation variant, a variant that's probably set up for some kind of mining operations or maybe assimilation once the defenses have been neutralized. The ship seemed to have very little defense, but it had the means to hold the ship, cut it up like it was carving a turkey, other cubes we see, even the one that tries to assimilate earth, had at least some sort of subspace field, better weaponry, and better adaption technology as well as the mandate to assimilate, so my theory would have to be that this ship just simply wasn't equipped, or perhaps it was set to be adapted to a weaker species and wasn't built to encounter something on par with the federation tech at the time, I've theorized before that the borgs adaptations are per ship as the adaptations probably don't all work together, so this ship perhaps was adapted for weaponry unlike that of the federations, or even adapted to deal with a threat where it didn't want to assimilate it. And the reason the cube that they sent to earth only really took picard? It wasn't meant to win, it was more of a "Lets just see what happens" Cube, because we already know the borg have a transwarp aperture right at earth, why not just send like 10 cubes? Perhaps they were waiting for something? Perhaps they knew the Federation would advance and they needed something the Federation would have in the future? Perhaps the borg are aware of the timeline and are actively manipulating it to suit their needs?
Cool.
what episode of TNG was that? i don't remember.
Remember that right before TNG begins the Romulan Conflict happened in an all out war Situation. (Ref that episode of O‘Brians old captain going rogue)
So the Romulans did poke their head out and it resulted in Picard being hesitant in regards to children aboard.
The Klingons are more lolworthy than I realized. XD
Oh current year you so do amuse me.....
I think the difference with that first cube was simply the writers had not fully fleshed out the Borg and how they operate. So the Borg continued to develop and their methods defined better after the episode. Hence the difference in tactics over time. They simply hadn't developed the Borg well enough in this first use scenario.
The Queen being the biggest one that really didn't make sense, but writing is much easier when you have a single point of reference.
Copyright issues aside, I would prefer the clips used to be shorter to focus more on your commentary as I think that better maintains pacing. Maybe pull out a specific line or shot, but I definitely think this is a case of less is more.
not sure i'll keep it to one single sentence, but i'll consider shortening for sure.
Good video! What’s the sound track in the video?
Lore? 😎
Why are you forcing us to watch Kling Orcs? I want to take out my eyes out so bad LOL
Best explanation of STD klingons ever!
youtube gods more like daedric princes
Indeed
Maybe that is the real problem, what if Lore sacrificed lamb or goat...
a god will show mercy youtube demands your very soul
@@zealotmaster1 I always thought more Ideal Masters: make deals for souls, but end up on top...
They do too
I'd imagine what really got the BORGs attention was the "technology" (Q) that enabled the Enterprise to arrive and leave as it did and the disappointment in not finding "it".
There's two things about the BORG ship I thought was wrong. After the Enterprise escapes the cube "turns" to pursue, Why? I'n my opinion the cube shouldn't be face forward (yes, more menacing) but point forward to bring more weapons, ect... to bear?
Yeah, the first encounter with humankind changed the Borg. Their initial communications lacked many of the catchphrases so many recite upon Borg reference. Their languaging shifted.
Yes yes and yes you are so accurate everything you're saying
Hmm. One could call it a golden age, sure. However, I'd also term it "the age of arrogance" or Hell...there are a bunch of terms I could use but the one I was looking for specifically...is just gone from my head when I need it. Damn it!
The Borg were already heading towards Earth after they encountered Captain Archer and the Enterprise NX-01. Q flung the Enterprise-D into the Cube's path to give them a heads up warning that the Borg were coming and needed to be ready to fight.
The oddities of the first Cube from TNG remind me of the first Ferengi from TNG. The writers just didn’t have I figured out yet. Loophole: if the Ferengi ship was so advanced, presumably from buying alien technology, why doesn’t anybody and everybody go to them when they want to start a war? Is this how the Schmitar became so advanced?
Maybe there was a newer Cube closer Q could have some too. Maybe just the Borg send older ships further out into space 2 keep the losses are minimal. And keep the newer ones closer to home base? But when they met species eight four 7 2 are they the same Cube says this one?
Excellent analysis. I always thought the Borg were wasted, presented as too simplistically ‘evil’
Q's Borg lesson = resounding yes. Changing the Borg? You mean what happened every time they assimilated anything? So yes. The change (for obvious terror in fiction) to assimilating biology along with technology was big but not outside of linear progression.
Im generally not one to watch a commercial for anything, but I gotta say, Brokeback Burnham killed me.
Thing is J-25 was not the Federation and Borg's first encounter. Both are aware of each other by time travel shenanigans. If we take Discovery as Canon the Mirror Universe was kept secret for much of Starfleet. That the crew of the Enterprise no suffix has not heard of it. By the same token Picard and crew is unaware even after they saw the Borg's handywork on the Neutralzone. Meaning the Federation knew but never told even the flagship of the fleet. Keeping it secret from the Romulans and their allies the Klingons. Which explains how they already have a Borg expert in Shelby. It wouldn't surprise me if Section 31 has been preparing for centuries for the Borg while the Federation Council hid its head in the sand even when El Aurean refugees came in as proof of the threat.
SECTION 31
Isn't CANON
SECTION 31
was created for 1 reason
ALEXANDER SIDDIG
told the producers of
ST : DS9
" I'M SICK OF BEING THE
2nd JAKE SISKO
( boring and useless )
GIVE BASHIR SOMETHING
TO DO OR I QUIT "
it was because the
007 BASHIR storylines were
cancelled after the
BOND LICENSE HOLDERS
SUED PARAMOUNT
DR BASHIR
had no useful purpose
ST : ENTERPRISE
did the samething with
MALCOLM REED
another
WORTHLESS USELESS
CHARACTER
.
So how would the time travel elements work here? We know the events of First Contact, and then the thawed out Borg in Enterprise send off a transmission to the Delta Quadrant, so is this a predestination paradox type of thing? I mean the Borg were already coming for the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, so Q’s actions just gave them the Federation to focus on. Although from non canon sources it seems the Borg have it in for the Romulans. Anyway time travel talk hurts my head.
CAn someone explain why he does this? 10:41. Not complaining just asking.
Season 2 Ep 16, why didnt the borg try to assimilate Q when he is close to the borg?
When the cube first encountered the enterprise they weren't interested in humans because they see humans as substandard. That changed after that encounter because the enterprise was able to escape the borg without explanation. That made the borg curious about the nature of humanity and how they were able to accomplish the unexplainable. That's when they started to assimilate humans en mass.
Is it possible that the borg were the nanites created by wesley crusher and when they were expelled from the ship they somehow timetraveled to the delta quadrant lost and alone all they could do was assimilate and q needed the enterprise bc they made and the q are afraid that borg will eventually assimilate the q
Considering how the Borg are I don't think it would matter if that specific Cube was one day old or one century old, I believe they would have kept everything as up to date as possible. So there would be no performance differences between Cubes of various ages like that.
As for the Cube only being interested in the Enterprise itself that could have simply been because the Collective had not had the time to really process all of the information they had taken from D's computers. To me it always seemed like every full sized Federation ship, base, etc would have, with the possible exception of classified information obviously, the entirely of the collective knowledge of the Federation stored within it somehow. I imagine even for something like the Borg Collective that could take a while to process and really comprehend what it truly all means. Add into the fact that we really do not know the amount of time it takes from a single Borg Drone downloading some information to the entire Collective, not just the one ship or installation that Drone is from but the actual entire Collective, to have that information. By the time of this episode the Borg are spread out all over at least one Quadrant of the Galaxy, there would have to be some sort of delay even with Subspace messaging. I could easily see this Cube downloading all of that information, sending it off to the rest of the Collective, and in the mean time deciding "The Ship is worth taking but the inhabitants not so much", then when they hear back from the rest of the Collective they get told "You decided wrong, the inhabitants are also worth assimilating, that is now the stranded procedure when encountering any United Federation of Planets equipment and personal."
Sorry for the wall of text.
The cube was already on its way. Q was trying to warn them.
We look at it as Q helping the Federation or helping himself by using the federation. But also, what about the Borg ?
Could Q, in his multidimensional way, be challenging the bored Borg by bringing to Them a shiny new toy to play with?
First of all one needs to consider the “in canon” and the “story writing” elements of the Borg separately (and only then attempt to reconcile the two). A frequent theme depicts the Borg as the “enemy” … a requirement even for the second encounter with them. But the Borg as originally presented was more of a force of nature. By the way, as a side note and your clips reminded me of that, there are a lot of strange plot points with the original Borg episode and like most of these plot points of the TNG series wind up being butchered to death. Q is practically treating Guinan as an equal and she in turn seems to have a Q like detachment about “humanity.” But you can’t defeat a “force of nature” and using the Borg as originally presented is like having sailing ship constantly going through hurricanes. So it’s clear that the Borg needed to be altered to be more of a “villain.” So on the “in canon” side, did the encounter “change” the Borg? That is hard to say but it is clear that from this encounter the Borg did change dramatically and this change eventually led to the downfall of the Borg.
I think it's complicated. I think the Borg was changed more by the Q than the Federation at the first meeting. Assuming a ship was already coming due to the communication from First Contact the Borg were already on their way but they weren't in a hurry. However imagine the Borg's surprise when they find a ship that traveled across the galaxy in a matter of moments and lands in their space. This might explain why they only cared about the ship at this point because it appears to have a technology they don't have and can't match. So they just wanted as much information of the ship as they could get before it left faster than they are able to chase. So they might've thought the Q flash was Federation tech and didn't come from space gods. And when the ship left and they didn't discover the tech and saw it went towards where that mysterious message from future Borg sent in the past so they decided to speed up their investigation.
I guess it all comes down to would the first cube have arrived by the time of the Dominion War so the Federation would have had military ships or would they still have showed up at the same time and the Federation would've just had no idea what it was or what it was doing?
the klingon amor at minute 4:26 looks like a trahscan.
Here is my guess in why the borg only wanted the ship at the first interaction. While the ship and the technology were judged worthy of assimilation, humans and the crew were not at that time. We know that species can be rejected for assimilation like the Kazon. The fact that they proved resourceful at the first encounter made them worthy of assimilation.
Picard and crew was transported there accidentally though. An I'm sure Time Trek force was monitoring it, detected it and planned to fix it after Picard showed they was gonna get home on they own. The Borg DIDN'T care, made themselves better at others expense routinely even on purpose to everyone in the universe EXCEPT them and WANTED the timeline screwed up if I remember that Picard scene right.. was kinda the thing with that movie.
Though probably not intended, the Enterprise Episode "Regeneration" fixes the timeline to make the Hanson's mission relevant before the TNG episode "Q Who?"
Remember DS9. Cisco said the paradise was on earth, so Star Fleet didn’t understand the realities out on the borders.
I still like the point you made that because Q is cautious of Guinan and the borg assimilated the el aurians the Q are cautious of the borg.
Also just another comment. a bit off topic, I notice in the Discovery clip, the Andorians get the epithet filthy I wonder if the Andorians had given the Klingons a few bloody noses in the past..
It may have to do with how the Andorian's gave them the bloody noses as well.
The history as we know it states that after their first encounter Vulcan just immediately fired on any Klingon ship they came in contact with very straight forward.
I think we can assume that the Tellarites were not seen as much of a threat to the Klingons.
The Andorian's may have used what the Klingons would hypocritically deem underhanded tactics like ambuses etc. Also it may be like Earth being the closest of the 4 major Federation powers to Romulan Space the Andorian's might be the closest to Klingon space.
Whilst the seem to be quite disparaging of the Andorian it's likely they don't speak any better of the Humans.
Or it could be that to Klingons blue is a sign of disease or uncleanness.
11:44 The Borg just wanted the Holodeck, and all it's programs. Life in the Cube gets boring... even for a Hive Mind. :-)
You left out the most important parallel, and that is the fact that the very first Borg drones where in fact Starfleet officers, from Columbia, NX-02. Lost during the Earth-Romulam war. They made their way to a Dyson sphere like system, where they encountered a reclusive species that sought to observe the galaxy without being themselves observed. This species technology closely revolved around the use of nanites. They offered the crew safe harbor, but refused to let them leave. An escape attempt by the crew triggered a cataclysmic explosion, creating a nebula, and sending parts of the crew back in time, and the survivors cast across the Universe. Several crew where sent to a world with one of the aliens, who used it's nanites to take control of the 'dangerous' humans, and began trying to rebuild the greatness that was once her species.
Unfortunately there's no alpha canon evidence of that, but its really interesting.
@@LoreReloaded I know, it's in the books.
Ok so how was it different?
The Maquis would certainly see a resemblance
The board had cloning technology, so they didn't really need to assimilate individuals in order to replace lost numbers. My guess is that the only assimilate new races that they encounter which are seen to be a value, but they fall short of outright destroying those civilizations because by leaving them intact it allows those civilizations to develop new technologies which the board can then acquire to improve themselves. In this way it makes perfect sense why they would be interested in the ship, rather than the people. However, once the Borg became aware that the people on the ship were like nothing they have encountered before they would have a renewed interest in assimilation of individuals.
They would probably only make a point of destroying a planetary civilization if that Civilization posed a potential threat to the Borg.
At least that's my take on it.
An interesting video, but the cube q sent the enterprise to I feel didn't get to send any very important information. Yes they (when attacked the federation) knew of the enterprise and Picard. But they had been rading and gathering information for some time on the federation. So they knew the enterprise was the flagship, and Picard was the captain that's why they made him lacutis. U think the first cube encountered was either made by q or q stopped it transmitting its information. If he had not then the enterprise's weapons when first encountered the wolf 359 cube wouldn't of had any affect, but they did somewhat. Why would q let the Borg get information on starfleet when he was trying to protect/give Intel to starfleet.
(Hope I explained that right, have dyslexia so putting what I think into writing is difficult)
So would you mind explaining how simply buying a domain name from a site allows you to use copyrighted clips and monetize it????????
Nothing... United States Fair Use Clause from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act does
I think Bane in Dark Knight Rises said it best.
Peace has made you weak. Victory has defeated you.
The Borg and the Federation are both, for lack of a better term, expansionist empires. The main difference is that the Borg expand through conquest, while the Federation expands, at least primarily, through diplomacy. Both seek to grow by incorporating other species, cultures, and technologies. As far as Q's desire, my opinion is a bit mixed. Q is a trickster archetype, from a similar vein as Loki. While his influence would serve to instill humility and enlightenment, I feel that he acts more so to be entertained. His interactions with "lower species" is done out of cruel curiosity to see them squirm and react, and less to actually help anyone. And considering how far the Enterprise was from Borg space, the Federation and the Borg would not have made contact for years. Though it could be argued that without this rude awakening, the Federation, and the Alpha quadrant would have been woefully underdeveloped during the Dominion War, thus leaving it vulnerable and weak when the Borg would have naturally appeared. This is however more likely an unexpected side effect rather than any true plan by Q.
just cuz you can go fast dont mean you should go fast i think thats what was with the borg here
I think the cube they encountered was a scout cube.
Douglas Adams became one with the borg.
Are you sure about the number of decks, Captain?
It can't be entirely true that money no longer exists in the 24th century. The Federation has to have to have trade relations both within the Federation itself as well as outside the Federation and many of the races they encounter do still use some form of money. Barter is still a possibility, true, but standardizing on an easily convertible currency makes things so much easier which is why gold pressed latinum figures so prominently in many episodes of Deep Space Nine that involve Quark to any degree. Then we also have the problem of the existence of Federation credits, which are mentioned across all Trek series at some point, although their acceptance by merchants (even within the Federation) seems to be voluntary rather than enforceable by law.
Within itself no..everyone has replicators..outside i agree they need reserves. Its treated very inconsistently
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute...
Now that that's done, on with the video!
Such a great scene, too bad people are too hung up on visuals.
It’s ironic that the at discovery Klingons would eventually become more “humanoid“ exactly what they feared would happen
First, nice vids. Nice to see someone stick it to these idiots every-once in a while. As for your question...no clue. The Borg seem to go back and forth in wanting technology and people. Its possible that when they encountered the Enterprise they were looking for better tech, but then discovered that the humans were just as good.
Ugh dang it.... why did they not ADR over the klingons voices in Disco? They all sound like they have mouthfulls of cake with those false teeth in
How come there's nothing in the record books about Lily
i believe the "golden age"may refer to how starfleet saw themselves during TNG
While I roll my eyes at Eddington's assertion saying the Federation is worse than the Borg (the dude is delusional enough to think the DMZ colonists could defeat Cardassia by themselves), it does bother me how disagreement is treated in Starfleet with it being looked down upon. Even Sisko, the most bad-ass Captain in the Federation, was reprimanded by Adm. Nechayev just for saying they were abandoning the DMZ Colonists. Heck, even Kirk has been ordered to force relationships with isolated species like Melkotians from TOS.
If you want to understand the origin of the Borg and what drives them you need to understand the Caeliar and how the crew of the Columbia NX-02 indirectly created them.
memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Caeliar
Now I got STD in my eyes, thanks.
So is there anyone that's done a 'what if Q hadn't forced the encounter between the federation and the borg' video?
Technically, I've always thought Q did them a favor by introducing them to the Borg. I mean, sure, it SUCKED for them, but they were given a chance to understand just how below par they were. It was a necessary humbling to get them to step their game up BEFORE they ran into the Borg proper and the Dominion.
As Q said, out in the Galaxy if you can't take a bloody nose then you should go back home and crawl under your bed.
It's a soft retcon for sure, but the Borg were already in the Neutral Zone at the end of the first season.
Yea, i discuss that a bit
How manytimes does he say Federation
The Dark Knight Rises.
Bane: [to Batman] Peace has cost you your strength! Victory has defeated you!