The Federation: “I have a vast collection of doomsday devices. I’ll lend you my doomsday device, but only if you promise not to misuse it.” hands over a doomsday device that is a simple red button, “Be careful with that!”
So the nuclear quote was because for most of the Manhattan project the math suggested the nuclear explosion might trigger a chain reaction in the atmosphere and actually burn away the atmosphere of the planet. It wasn't until a couple weeks before the first live test the calculations were completed to conclude otherwise and even then most involved were not actually certain until after the first test.😊
From what I’ve read very few scientists took this as a real possibility and even when the math supposedly came back saying it might, they weren’t actually finished. They were still figuring out all the variables. It seems to be something that’s been exaggerated over time to try and make a good story.
Exactly right. An exaggeration. These people knew what they were making and it scared them. Hindsight is 20/20, but the amount of energy needed to chain the atmosphere is incredible and beyond our reach, and they knew it. These miscalculations are pretty much just like the global warming predictions that have us all dead every year.
In TOS the paradise syndrome McCoy makes a statement from the preservers obelisk He has discovered that the people who made the obelisks are called The Preservers. They moved humanoid species in danger of extinction, placing them around throughout the galaxy in hospitable areas in order to save them. For McCoy, this answers the question of why there are so many similar humanoid species scattered throughout the galaxy. It would be interesting to see if the Preservers were actually the progenitors or their direct descendants
discovery says the progenitors have been extinct for billions of years so the preservers are most likely another race or the preservers are actually the decedents of the progenitors.
Ideals are just that, ideals. They're a good thing and should be aspired to When you're facing an enemy who doesn't follow your code and wants to destroy you, a level of pragmatism is necessary.
Morality often gives way to raw survival instinct, or the madness of those who crave absolute power. To have a few brave souls willing to become the sabot in the machinery of their own civilization's interests is noble.
If we must extinguish the light of a trillion souls each day so safeguard the impr.... federation we should gladly be about this task, to do aught else would be heresy.
Different can be good. Although I don't know how you can get much better than you already do. Been listening to you for probably 4 or 5 years now. You're fantastic!.
The Manhattan project scientist's thought sounds a LOT like when Bashir and his friends said the best solution was to surrender to the Dominion. The idea that between being wiped out and being ruled over but able to live and fight back later, the choice is obvious. Luckily, the nukes didn't ignite the atmosphere.
As a military man myself I do live in the sci fi setting Stargate Atlantis approach to nuclear weapons in warfare. Drop out of hyperspace beam a huge boom boom on an alien vessel then high tail it out of the AO. Simplistic but brutal I don’t know why this approach isn’t used more in sci fi.
If the self proclaimed good guys in our timeline can drop nukes on 2 cities to make the enemy surrender. What makes anyone think that the federation would be unwilling to at least "demonstrate" their capabilities on a hostile power? Not just to get them to surrender but to send a message to any other adversary of their ability and willingness to use such weapons.
Um, the federation could have detonated a string of Omega molecules on the delta side of the wormhole or hit every Dominion planet with a Genesis Device and did not.
1)Getting the material for Omega molecules was difficult in peace time - I don't want to image the costs during war time. Plus, they would need to synthesize, stabilize, transport and detonate those molecules - all while making sure it didn't happen in Fed or Allied Space. That's a very small likelihood of success. Genesis Devices are almost as rare, most likely because of difficulty in creation. And in fairness to LR's point, Sisko was happy to poison Maquis planets in an effort to defeat them, and the Klingons gave the Maquis cloaking technology.
Am I misunderstanding the original claims of the Progenitor hologram? She says that her people discovered worlds that had the "primordial oceans" where life was in their infancy. Upon discovery, they were implanted with "seed codes" that would resemble the humanoid form. The life on those worlds still had to "evolve" and develop. It was just tilted in a certain way so that an end result would be humanoid. They didn't really create life or invent it. They just modified what was there (by their claims in the original episode). Sure, this was huge news to all the present day races that survived (Humans, Klingons, Romulans, etc.), knowing they are all actually, in some small way, related and have this race to "thank for it". But how could that technology be used as a weapon, or at least anything more advanced than what they already have. Star Trek is filled with clones and genetic engineering stories. At any point, a spacefaring race could find a primordial world, supplant the bacteria there with their own brand, and make their own race in the same way. TAKING MILLIONS OF YEARS! Where's the nuclear weapon level destruction in that? I feel like the Discovery season took this way out of proportion, making claims that it didn't originally make. I feel like there had to be other stories that were more inline with what was actually said, than what we got.
My best guess is, and this is a blind inference here, but maybe they assumed it could be utilized, and thus weaponized, much like the genesis device- it wipes out everything that was, to recreate what will be. And no technology they had could stop it. The Progenitors were supposedly ridiculously advanced, to the point where (apocryphal) STO has them actually creating the Iconians as their "first children". Even if you discount that, the ability to direct the evolution of multiple sentient races with different environmental factors and different burgeoning cultures millions of years after you're gone is still pretty damned impressive. If they could do that with just some base code from their life seeding device, it isn't a far cry to assume those same 'seeds' could be modified to start destroying every linked DNA form of a certain pattern it can find. Beings would start being attacked from the inside, and scans would reveal heavy genetic damage on a microcellular level akin to a massive radiation burst, yet without the residual radiation burns. That's pretty scary. Soldiers can take down other soldiers. They can even fight monsters. But this enemy is tiny, and soldiers have no defense against it. They can't even prepare for its arrival.
To a degree there is a lot of wisdom in denying the superior tech to a civilisation because they are not ready for it - we saw that being done by the federation on numerous occasions so on that level it might make some sense that the tech migh be denied to the federation on the same grounds - a vast jump in tech can destroy a civilisation. That said i do not agree with destroying said tech just because you are not ready for it now doesnt mean you wont be forever and destroying it is just a waste. so hiding it sure - but destroying it ? nah that is always a stupid choice. Simply because in terms of the galactic scale someone other than you might bump onto it anyway and then if the dominos fall you will be on the reciveving end anyway and without a way to level the planefield.
The Discovery (and Picard) problems actually isn't from a lack of talent, it was the decision for a season long story arch. With an A plot always in play we lose the ability to actually relate to the characters, because they are always in a high stress situation. The individual story allows for charactors to be shown outside their job, and being themselves. Often by not making them the focus character of the episode. For example that brief exchange between Worf and Guiden in Yesterday's Enterprise let us know more about Worf than episodes that focuses on him.
@@toddfraser3353In the late-90s and early 2000s people complained when Star Trek was too episodic. Think what you will about Discovery but it did focus on characters and showing them grow within the season arcs. It just focused on a core set and not the whole crew. My hope is that with SNW out people can appreciate Discovery’s style and the new things it allowed Star Trek to do.
I’m not sure where you got your quotes for the manhattan project but I’ve read about the fear of atmospheric ignition a few times. It was brought up as a “mathematical possibility” and treated with the seriousness it deserved, but very few scientists actually considered it a realistic worry, and from what I’ve read, the military would never have proceeded with the first test if the math had not come back as it did. Mathematically it was possible to ignite the atmosphere, but the energy required would be enough to have already destroyed the planet. Basically, the boom to ignite the atmosphere would be so big. The planet would already gone. I’ve never read anything about a lot of them being worried about wiping out humanity in one explosion. And considering the culture at the time if any of them had been reported having said the other side should win in any way they would’ve been removed from the project and probably jailed till after the end of the war.
I'm amazed you avoided discussing the DS9 episode "Statistical Probabilities". I was certain that was going to make a comparison before the conclusion.
Starfleet is a military organisation. I've had a discussion with someone in the past about it. During the Dominion War, Starfleet felt threatend like never before; even their previous conflicts with the Borg hadn't inflicted such losses. Starfleet was in this sense a wounded, desperate animal. The DS1 episode 'In the Pale Moonlight' really brings this feeling home. Starfleet is and was an idea. The problem with this utopian idea, is that in order for it to function, it must do things over governments, and indeed, other races also do: Espionage, assassination, sabotage, researching biological weapons etc. Other races, as Odo points out during the series, like the Cardassians and Romulans, have their own vehicles for this; mainly in the form of the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order. Why should the Federation be any different?
Also i need the break down of pikes' reluctance to fight and how that failure lead to a war with the romulans. N his arrogance thinking kirk was the issue
As we have seen from Star Trek usually it's the little guys the smaller people that make the biggest impact for the good. Name any series in Trek and once you hit the admiralty you start to see a big picture of sacrificing their morals to either protect the shield or win a conflict. From captains downward those are the people that make up what the Federation truly is races, people, young, and old coming together to do something great.
You seem to have forgotten the scene where Sisko informs Odo that, while the Federation Council has formally condemned the actions of section 31, they will nor provide the cure to the Dominion. A clearly angry and frustrated Odo denounced the "tody little arrangement" in play.
I actually thought a bit about the chance of igniting the atmosphere, and thought "hey, why not tell the Nazis that we have a doomsday device, and that if they invade us, then it's curtains for everyone?" Then I thought about it further: if the Nazis knew that the US had a nuclear device, they would likely 1) try to build similar devices themselves, and either test the devices themselves (in which case there is a chance it is curtains for everybody, or they find out it's not quite a doomsday device), or 2) assuming they are fanatical enough (and the Nazis had fanaticism spades), say "we're calling your bluff! We're all going to be either one big happy fascist family (except for the Jews, Communists, Gypsies, and anyone else we decide not to share with), or we're all going to be one big DEAD family! Your choice! We're COMING OVER!!!" And if the Nazis did get their hands on nuclear weapons (which they would have eventually), all it would take is one maniac to start a nuclear holocaust. And there are many times when the world did come close to that holocaust during our Cold War. Quite frankly, it surprises me that none of the other non-nuclear powers threatened to invade either the Soviet Union or US if they didn't at least reduce their arsenal to the point where it wouldn't effect them if the two superpowers came to blow. I could actually see that happening on some worlds or timelines, actually, especially on Qo'nos when they first invented nukes. Chances has it, that any such nations that panicked like that would have the snot beaten out of them if they tried to carry out their threat, or possibly even have the very weapons they feared used against them (again, especially on Qo'nos). As for Progenitor tech being used during the Dominion War: that actually sounds like a decent premise for an alternate universe. Discovering lost tech during a war isn't a new trope in sci-fi, and I could see the Federation Alliance and Dominion racing to get their hands on the tech first. Unfortunately, it is guaranteed that the Klingons and Romulans would be VERY displeased if the Federation didn't share. Granted that a war with the Federation would likely be suicide after integrating Progenitor-based components in Starfleet, but the Klingons are like Space Badgers: they don't give a fuck. And God forbid that the Romulans or Klingons, let alone the Dominion managed to get their hands on Progenitor tech, even if it was just in the form of some scattered Jem-Hadar remnants, scrapped off of some wreckage, or Changeling shenanigans. And the remaining Changelings don't even have to try to rebuild their assets. Hell, they might not even bother to say "hey, now we have Progenitor tech! So submit to your rightful rulers, or we ALL die!!!", so much as "fuck, if we can't have control of the galaxy, then NOBODY deserves to live!!!" The Federation might win the war, but they might ultimately lose in the end if and when they lose control of the Progenitor technology.
The federation is not about genocide. This is why Picard left starfleet. Why sisko was wrong to use trilithium laced quantum torpedoes on rebels. The dominion war was a great story.
I'll admit, I haven't watched it either. However comma I believe what happens is that they found the symbiont that they needed. There's then a procedure to have the essence, personality, soul, however you want to frame it, to enter into the body of someone else, like their doctor. While inhabiting the doctor's body, it could then relay the necessary information. They had an episode of DS9 where the past personalities that were in Dax got to inhabit the bodies of Jadzia's friends, so they could have a more "face to face" interaction with their latest host.
wait, what if from the utopia of TOS to the degraded modern Picard its all explained by the fourth turning? what if theres a new golden age a first Turing on the horizon of Picard ten years down the road?
I think what they did was very starfleet. Starfleet would never allow you to destroy innocent lives. Even at the cost of their lives. We see it time and again in tng and even deep space 9.
Star Trek is currently not Star Trek its a mix of woke/fast and furious. Discovery Season 5 was bad. From the start. Halfway through episode 1 of 10 in season 5 I knew it was bad. I knew what we were gonna see. It was like Discovery just ignored what they were able to accomplish in Picard season 3.. Season 3 of Picard is probably the only Star Trek that has been great since the 2009 Reboot film. Just about everything after this has been very rough to watch. Now Strange New Worlds is closer to the Trek we know but still falls short. Not just the lore. We go from TOS Kirk and the Federation not knowing much about the Eugenics Wars or WW3, but now TOS acts like they know all of this. What made TOS trek great was moving past modern day issues. Now this version of Trek wants to rehash everything and while doing that change the lore to fit modern times. It shouldn't be doing this. Star Trek is Fantasy. It should stay there. If we are going to revisit TOS then let's do it properly. Current Star Trek feels like 2018-star wars. Has this approach worked for Star Wars? I do not think so.
Doesn’t Star Trek always default to woke? I mean it’s the very moral high ground that makes the Federation the good guys. Star trek writing may be garbage or treasured, but it should always be woke, or at least woke-adjacent. After all, we should all strive to be a proper space socialist republic of some stripe ;p
Hm... nope, my brain feels like it just had a lobotomy while having diarrhea. I love TNG sure but man did it warp perspectives, If Picard is one end then Sisco is another end and Kirk is the middle ground. Janeway is just Sisco hopped up on whatever they drink in the Mirror Universe minus the Jesus complex. Trek has always been woke, but it was a pragmatic woke, where you can afford to be that way because 90% of problems are solved already. Infinite energy source? Check. Bestest tech? Check, and I could go on. Earth is a literal utopia in the center of a galactic super power. Honestly that's what made Trek great, the problems were bordering alien to our own problems, I argue that the worst of Trek were episodes where the allegory was on the nose.
@@user-hj8rn5wp8zsometimes the algorithm deletes comments seemingly at random out for using certain words it doesn’t like. I’ve seen people mention this on lots of other TH-cam channels. It’s unlikely to be the video creator.
At the expense of logic, common sense, and a virilant hatred of anything that originates from European culture and it's people. Just complete your thought and admit you hate all white people.
@LoreReloaded That is the main version of it that has an etymology back to the 18th century (in regard to diversity on ships at th,time) and was brought strongly to the fore during the race riots of the deep south and the race movement in the Caribbean, both in the 1920s. The slang version may mean different things, and only one slang version is common across definitions, as used primarily by neo nazi groups. Regardless, other meanings are classified as slang. Abolitionists does not mean conformist for example. What you may have been looking for is timid or conciliatory or weak or compromising or any number of a multitude of words (none if which appear in woke). Which, in itself, has its own argument.
@LoreReloaded even if words change their meaning us,the defence (quite rate), it doesn't make their use the Best word to use. Your own argument, it means many things, make your point meaningless. "In language, clarity is everything". Purely from a script writing element here, the federation is cowardly or perhaps, as some might say, it has "yer yellow belly or be pussy footing, hog tooting around ". There are far far far more percise words.
I'd like to agree but I've spoken to enough star trek fans insisting it is ONLY for left wing people, no conservatives allowed, and know enough of gene Roddenbury's ideology to realize this is supposed to be the perfect communist ideal in space... So I've been told. The fact that the utopia will abide by it's own rules even if it leads to genocide is supposed to be a good thing and yet ignoring those rules to protect itself is just as disingenuous as communism is in real life considering it's killed more people than anything short of malaria or random viruses but as far as human actions go... Great on paper, lethal in reality. Don't blame me. I'm just relaying the message. I'm not allowed to be a fan and the ideology it's supposed to be has a bad track record. I hate modern politics forced into escapist entertainment but there it is. Apparently the federation is wrong for upholding it's ideals AND for not doing so. A very depressing future indeed.
The Federation: “I have a vast collection of doomsday devices. I’ll lend you my doomsday device, but only if you promise not to misuse it.” hands over a doomsday device that is a simple red button, “Be careful with that!”
So the nuclear quote was because for most of the Manhattan project the math suggested the nuclear explosion might trigger a chain reaction in the atmosphere and actually burn away the atmosphere of the planet. It wasn't until a couple weeks before the first live test the calculations were completed to conclude otherwise and even then most involved were not actually certain until after the first test.😊
From what I’ve read very few scientists took this as a real possibility and even when the math supposedly came back saying it might, they weren’t actually finished.
They were still figuring out all the variables.
It seems to be something that’s been exaggerated over time to try and make a good story.
Exactly right. An exaggeration. These people knew what they were making and it scared them. Hindsight is 20/20, but the amount of energy needed to chain the atmosphere is incredible and beyond our reach, and they knew it. These miscalculations are pretty much just like the global warming predictions that have us all dead every year.
In TOS the paradise syndrome McCoy makes a statement from the preservers obelisk
He has discovered that the people who made the obelisks are called The Preservers. They moved humanoid species in danger of extinction, placing them around throughout the galaxy in hospitable areas in order to save them. For McCoy, this answers the question of why there are so many similar humanoid species scattered throughout the galaxy.
It would be interesting to see if the Preservers were actually the progenitors or their direct descendants
discovery says the progenitors have been extinct for billions of years so the preservers are most likely another race or the preservers are actually the decedents of the progenitors.
Ideals are just that, ideals. They're a good thing and should be aspired to When you're facing an enemy who doesn't follow your code and wants to destroy you, a level of pragmatism is necessary.
Morality often gives way to raw survival instinct, or the madness of those who crave absolute power. To have a few brave souls willing to become the sabot in the machinery of their own civilization's interests is noble.
Honestly, the actions of the science team remind me of Dr Franklin in Babylon 5. They held to their morals even though it would cost lives.
If we must extinguish the light of a trillion souls each day so safeguard the impr.... federation we should gladly be about this task, to do aught else would be heresy.
Different can be good. Although I don't know how you can get much better than you already do. Been listening to you for probably 4 or 5 years now. You're fantastic!.
The Manhattan project scientist's thought sounds a LOT like when Bashir and his friends said the best solution was to surrender to the Dominion. The idea that between being wiped out and being ruled over but able to live and fight back later, the choice is obvious. Luckily, the nukes didn't ignite the atmosphere.
I don’t have anything particularly interesting or relevant to say so I’ll just say “I am become Commenter, Booster of Lore in The Algorithm”
As a military man myself I do live in the sci fi setting Stargate Atlantis approach to nuclear weapons in warfare. Drop out of hyperspace beam a huge boom boom on an alien vessel then high tail it out of the AO. Simplistic but brutal I don’t know why this approach isn’t used more in sci fi.
If the self proclaimed good guys in our timeline can drop nukes on 2 cities to make the enemy surrender. What makes anyone think that the federation would be unwilling to at least "demonstrate" their capabilities on a hostile power? Not just to get them to surrender but to send a message to any other adversary of their ability and willingness to use such weapons.
Um, the federation could have detonated a string of Omega molecules on the delta side of the wormhole or hit every Dominion planet with a Genesis Device and did not.
1)Getting the material for Omega molecules was difficult in peace time - I don't want to image the costs during war time. Plus, they would need to synthesize, stabilize, transport and detonate those molecules - all while making sure it didn't happen in Fed or Allied Space. That's a very small likelihood of success. Genesis Devices are almost as rare, most likely because of difficulty in creation. And in fairness to LR's point, Sisko was happy to poison Maquis planets in an effort to defeat them, and the Klingons gave the Maquis cloaking technology.
Am I misunderstanding the original claims of the Progenitor hologram? She says that her people discovered worlds that had the "primordial oceans" where life was in their infancy. Upon discovery, they were implanted with "seed codes" that would resemble the humanoid form. The life on those worlds still had to "evolve" and develop. It was just tilted in a certain way so that an end result would be humanoid. They didn't really create life or invent it. They just modified what was there (by their claims in the original episode). Sure, this was huge news to all the present day races that survived (Humans, Klingons, Romulans, etc.), knowing they are all actually, in some small way, related and have this race to "thank for it". But how could that technology be used as a weapon, or at least anything more advanced than what they already have. Star Trek is filled with clones and genetic engineering stories. At any point, a spacefaring race could find a primordial world, supplant the bacteria there with their own brand, and make their own race in the same way. TAKING MILLIONS OF YEARS! Where's the nuclear weapon level destruction in that? I feel like the Discovery season took this way out of proportion, making claims that it didn't originally make. I feel like there had to be other stories that were more inline with what was actually said, than what we got.
My best guess is, and this is a blind inference here, but maybe they assumed it could be utilized, and thus weaponized, much like the genesis device- it wipes out everything that was, to recreate what will be. And no technology they had could stop it. The Progenitors were supposedly ridiculously advanced, to the point where (apocryphal) STO has them actually creating the Iconians as their "first children". Even if you discount that, the ability to direct the evolution of multiple sentient races with different environmental factors and different burgeoning cultures millions of years after you're gone is still pretty damned impressive. If they could do that with just some base code from their life seeding device, it isn't a far cry to assume those same 'seeds' could be modified to start destroying every linked DNA form of a certain pattern it can find. Beings would start being attacked from the inside, and scans would reveal heavy genetic damage on a microcellular level akin to a massive radiation burst, yet without the residual radiation burns. That's pretty scary. Soldiers can take down other soldiers. They can even fight monsters. But this enemy is tiny, and soldiers have no defense against it. They can't even prepare for its arrival.
To a degree there is a lot of wisdom in denying the superior tech to a civilisation because they are not ready for it - we saw that being done by the federation on numerous occasions so on that level it might make some sense that the tech migh be denied to the federation on the same grounds - a vast jump in tech can destroy a civilisation.
That said i do not agree with destroying said tech just because you are not ready for it now doesnt mean you wont be forever and destroying it is just a waste. so hiding it sure - but destroying it ? nah that is always a stupid choice. Simply because in terms of the galactic scale someone other than you might bump onto it anyway and then if the dominos fall you will be on the reciveving end anyway and without a way to level the planefield.
Especially when the freak Borg are still a threat. That tech would have been handy in fighting the Borg.
Not a big fan of Discovery but sometimes they did a lot better job at the writing then people give them credit for.
The Discovery (and Picard) problems actually isn't from a lack of talent, it was the decision for a season long story arch. With an A plot always in play we lose the ability to actually relate to the characters, because they are always in a high stress situation.
The individual story allows for charactors to be shown outside their job, and being themselves. Often by not making them the focus character of the episode. For example that brief exchange between Worf and Guiden in Yesterday's Enterprise let us know more about Worf than episodes that focuses on him.
@@toddfraser3353 I agree with you 100%
@@toddfraser3353In the late-90s and early 2000s people complained when Star Trek was too episodic. Think what you will about Discovery but it did focus on characters and showing them grow within the season arcs. It just focused on a core set and not the whole crew. My hope is that with SNW out people can appreciate Discovery’s style and the new things it allowed Star Trek to do.
I’m not sure where you got your quotes for the manhattan project but I’ve read about the fear of atmospheric ignition a few times.
It was brought up as a “mathematical possibility” and treated with the seriousness it deserved, but very few scientists actually considered it a realistic worry, and from what I’ve read, the military would never have proceeded with the first test if the math had not come back as it did.
Mathematically it was possible to ignite the atmosphere, but the energy required would be enough to have already destroyed the planet.
Basically, the boom to ignite the atmosphere would be so big. The planet would already gone.
I’ve never read anything about a lot of them being worried about wiping out humanity in one explosion.
And considering the culture at the time if any of them had been reported having said the other side should win in any way they would’ve been removed from the project and probably jailed till after the end of the war.
@@rodneywilson9192 from the source..
@@LoreReloadedwhat source? I don’t see anything in the comments or linked.
Am I missing something?
I'm amazed you avoided discussing the DS9 episode "Statistical Probabilities". I was certain that was going to make a comparison before the conclusion.
I'm rusty...didn't even think about it
@@LoreReloaded I wouldn't have guessed that; artificially, "evolved humans," is right in your wheelhouse.
Starfleet is a military organisation. I've had a discussion with someone in the past about it. During the Dominion War, Starfleet felt threatend like never before; even their previous conflicts with the Borg hadn't inflicted such losses. Starfleet was in this sense a wounded, desperate animal. The DS1 episode 'In the Pale Moonlight' really brings this feeling home. Starfleet is and was an idea. The problem with this utopian idea, is that in order for it to function, it must do things over governments, and indeed, other races also do: Espionage, assassination, sabotage, researching biological weapons etc. Other races, as Odo points out during the series, like the Cardassians and Romulans, have their own vehicles for this; mainly in the form of the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order. Why should the Federation be any different?
Also i need the break down of pikes' reluctance to fight and how that failure lead to a war with the romulans.
N his arrogance thinking kirk was the issue
Similarly, I've wondered before just how far Federatuon Temporal Agents will go to ensure that their preferred timeline is the one that happens.
As we have seen from Star Trek usually it's the little guys the smaller people that make the biggest impact for the good. Name any series in Trek and once you hit the admiralty you start to see a big picture of sacrificing their morals to either protect the shield or win a conflict. From captains downward those are the people that make up what the Federation truly is races, people, young, and old coming together to do something great.
You seem to have forgotten the scene where Sisko informs Odo that, while the Federation Council has formally condemned the actions of section 31, they will nor provide the cure to the Dominion. A clearly angry and frustrated Odo denounced the "tody little arrangement" in play.
Excellent episode.. Thank you for making it..
Love me some lore
"Good guys"
Outrageous!
Best episode 👌 yet brother
You are right.
I think your final thought is well said. If only the writers understood that.
I just want an ideal, not ideology
I actually thought a bit about the chance of igniting the atmosphere, and thought "hey, why not tell the Nazis that we have a doomsday device, and that if they invade us, then it's curtains for everyone?"
Then I thought about it further: if the Nazis knew that the US had a nuclear device, they would likely 1) try to build similar devices themselves, and either test the devices themselves (in which case there is a chance it is curtains for everybody, or they find out it's not quite a doomsday device), or 2) assuming they are fanatical enough (and the Nazis had fanaticism spades), say "we're calling your bluff! We're all going to be either one big happy fascist family (except for the Jews, Communists, Gypsies, and anyone else we decide not to share with), or we're all going to be one big DEAD family! Your choice! We're COMING OVER!!!"
And if the Nazis did get their hands on nuclear weapons (which they would have eventually), all it would take is one maniac to start a nuclear holocaust. And there are many times when the world did come close to that holocaust during our Cold War.
Quite frankly, it surprises me that none of the other non-nuclear powers threatened to invade either the Soviet Union or US if they didn't at least reduce their arsenal to the point where it wouldn't effect them if the two superpowers came to blow. I could actually see that happening on some worlds or timelines, actually, especially on Qo'nos when they first invented nukes. Chances has it, that any such nations that panicked like that would have the snot beaten out of them if they tried to carry out their threat, or possibly even have the very weapons they feared used against them (again, especially on Qo'nos).
As for Progenitor tech being used during the Dominion War: that actually sounds like a decent premise for an alternate universe. Discovering lost tech during a war isn't a new trope in sci-fi, and I could see the Federation Alliance and Dominion racing to get their hands on the tech first.
Unfortunately, it is guaranteed that the Klingons and Romulans would be VERY displeased if the Federation didn't share. Granted that a war with the Federation would likely be suicide after integrating Progenitor-based components in Starfleet, but the Klingons are like Space Badgers: they don't give a fuck.
And God forbid that the Romulans or Klingons, let alone the Dominion managed to get their hands on Progenitor tech, even if it was just in the form of some scattered Jem-Hadar remnants, scrapped off of some wreckage, or Changeling shenanigans. And the remaining Changelings don't even have to try to rebuild their assets. Hell, they might not even bother to say "hey, now we have Progenitor tech! So submit to your rightful rulers, or we ALL die!!!", so much as "fuck, if we can't have control of the galaxy, then NOBODY deserves to live!!!"
The Federation might win the war, but they might ultimately lose in the end if and when they lose control of the Progenitor technology.
Glory to the Mankind
That makes too much sense sir
Ty for the video and LLAP!
i don't know, to me genesis device looks more dangerous than progenitor tech
The federation is not about genocide. This is why Picard left starfleet. Why sisko was wrong to use trilithium laced quantum torpedoes on rebels. The dominion war was a great story.
I haven't watched discover since S3 but how did the doctor know anything about the dominon war? Isn't he from the TOS era?
I'll admit, I haven't watched it either. However comma I believe what happens is that they found the symbiont that they needed. There's then a procedure to have the essence, personality, soul, however you want to frame it, to enter into the body of someone else, like their doctor. While inhabiting the doctor's body, it could then relay the necessary information. They had an episode of DS9 where the past personalities that were in Dax got to inhabit the bodies of Jadzia's friends, so they could have a more "face to face" interaction with their latest host.
Exactly. I should have said that. They transferred the host from 800 years ago to the doctor for a small amount of time
@@jonleonard1555 makes sense(as much as disco makes sense anyway lol) thanks
wait, what if from the utopia of TOS to the degraded modern Picard its all explained by the fourth turning? what if theres a new golden age a first Turing on the horizon of Picard ten years down the road?
I think what they did was very starfleet. Starfleet would never allow you to destroy innocent lives. Even at the cost of their lives. We see it time and again in tng and even deep space 9.
Oh man, that is a bad sign for nu-trek if the first instinct of anyone discussing is to immediately go the defensive. Oof 😮
??? what?
i cant believe you made me watch some discovery >;( lol
@@borgKick :(
Figured they would throw Jan 6th in there
Noooooooo oneder she looks like the FOUNDER lol
BOO DISCOVERY.
Rodenberry would have hated it lol
The ending was stupid though
Star Trek is currently not Star Trek its a mix of woke/fast and furious. Discovery Season 5 was bad. From the start. Halfway through episode 1 of 10 in season 5 I knew it was bad. I knew what we were gonna see. It was like Discovery just ignored what they were able to accomplish in Picard season 3.. Season 3 of Picard is probably the only Star Trek that has been great since the 2009 Reboot film. Just about everything after this has been very rough to watch. Now Strange New Worlds is closer to the Trek we know but still falls short. Not just the lore. We go from TOS Kirk and the Federation not knowing much about the Eugenics Wars or WW3, but now TOS acts like they know all of this. What made TOS trek great was moving past modern day issues. Now this version of Trek wants to rehash everything and while doing that change the lore to fit modern times. It shouldn't be doing this. Star Trek is Fantasy. It should stay there. If we are going to revisit TOS then let's do it properly. Current Star Trek feels like 2018-star wars. Has this approach worked for Star Wars? I do not think so.
Doesn’t Star Trek always default to woke? I mean it’s the very moral high ground that makes the Federation the good guys. Star trek writing may be garbage or treasured, but it should always be woke, or at least woke-adjacent. After all, we should all strive to be a proper space socialist republic of some stripe ;p
Hm... nope, my brain feels like it just had a lobotomy while having diarrhea.
I love TNG sure but man did it warp perspectives, If Picard is one end then Sisco is another end and Kirk is the middle ground. Janeway is just Sisco hopped up on whatever they drink in the Mirror Universe minus the Jesus complex.
Trek has always been woke, but it was a pragmatic woke, where you can afford to be that way because 90% of problems are solved already. Infinite energy source? Check. Bestest tech? Check, and I could go on. Earth is a literal utopia in the center of a galactic super power.
Honestly that's what made Trek great, the problems were bordering alien to our own problems, I argue that the worst of Trek were episodes where the allegory was on the nose.
Nice. My comment deleted
I'm not in the habit of deleting messages. I'll check the held comments when I can
@@LoreReloaded may be algorithm was triggered on gen***ide word
@@user-hj8rn5wp8zsometimes the algorithm deletes comments seemingly at random out for using certain words it doesn’t like. I’ve seen people mention this on lots of other TH-cam channels. It’s unlikely to be the video creator.
@@glyngreen538 plossible.
I am sad not "who" deleted, but by the fact of deletion. youtube comments - awful
Woke, to be aware of and against social injustice, especially racism.
That is one version of it. Like a thousand words in the English language, there are many more
At the expense of logic, common sense, and a virilant hatred of anything that originates from European culture and it's people.
Just complete your thought and admit you hate all white people.
@LoreReloaded That is the main version of it that has an etymology back to the 18th century (in regard to diversity on ships at th,time) and was brought strongly to the fore during the race riots of the deep south and the race movement in the Caribbean, both in the 1920s.
The slang version may mean different things, and only one slang version is common across definitions, as used primarily by neo nazi groups. Regardless, other meanings are classified as slang.
Abolitionists does not mean conformist for example. What you may have been looking for is timid or conciliatory or weak or compromising or any number of a multitude of words (none if which appear in woke). Which, in itself, has its own argument.
@@riveness it is not the common parlance for it these days, alas.
@LoreReloaded even if words change their meaning us,the defence (quite rate), it doesn't make their use the Best word to use.
Your own argument, it means many things, make your point meaningless. "In language, clarity is everything". Purely from a script writing element here, the federation is cowardly or perhaps, as some might say, it has "yer yellow belly or be pussy footing, hog tooting around ".
There are far far far more percise words.
I'd like to agree but I've spoken to enough star trek fans insisting it is ONLY for left wing people, no conservatives allowed, and know enough of gene Roddenbury's ideology to realize this is supposed to be the perfect communist ideal in space... So I've been told.
The fact that the utopia will abide by it's own rules even if it leads to genocide is supposed to be a good thing and yet ignoring those rules to protect itself is just as disingenuous as communism is in real life considering it's killed more people than anything short of malaria or random viruses but as far as human actions go... Great on paper, lethal in reality.
Don't blame me. I'm just relaying the message. I'm not allowed to be a fan and the ideology it's supposed to be has a bad track record.
I hate modern politics forced into escapist entertainment but there it is.
Apparently the federation is wrong for upholding it's ideals AND for not doing so. A very depressing future indeed.
Hear folks use woke wrong will never not be funny.
discovery isnt canon anon