The Cannon origin of the borg was spoken about by Seven shortly after she came onboard Voyager. "When the Borg first arrived in this galactic cluster." Seven indicated they're not only not from this galaxy, but not from this galaxy cluster.
It is also worth noting that the Borg label different subjects numerical, drones are given numerical designations rather then names (Hince 7 of 9.) They label every species they come across numerically in numerical chronological order, in accordance to when they first came across that species. The species that first invented the Borg would naturally be the first species they came across, as that would be the species that is present at the vary origin of the Borg, so that species would be recorded in the Borg hive mind as Species 1 or Species 0. So the question to ask now would be, what is the Borg record species number of the Romulun species?
I'm sure the authors just didn't think and meant a star cluster within the galaxy. If the Borg were an intergalactic civilization, the Milky Way would have been overrun long ago.
Although the Romulan-Borg Theory is ehhh they still do have a history of Borg encounters. In Canon the Borg destroyed their colonise along the neutral zone assimilating at least 1 romulan seen in voyager as part of the Borg Cooperative. The Borg reclimation project by the romulans on the Artifact, one of the spoils being a Temporal transmitter seen in voyager timeless. And they used borg tech to upgrade the narada from a mining ship to a colossal monstrocity. In STO the Romulan Star Empire specifically te Tal Shiar began experimanting on ships and people with borg tech.
I think it's much more interesting if they are an mysterious ancient alien race that has little in common with the known Alpha Quadrant species, just as they were in Q Who
They existence before that when nomad was as captured or rescued repaired then sent out the Borg were tracking it equipped it with a adaptive sheilding
I know it's tangential at best but I do love that TNG took the time to explain how every alien looks like humans with stuff on their face and did it in a way that was not just annoying exposition. It made some sense within the universe and it was a fun and interesting episode.
Actually, this raises some questions. If all species in the alpha quadrant were seeded by super advanced aliens to be humanoid, where did the Tholians come from? Why are they crab people?
@@citizensnips7949 I see a few possibilities. The most likely would be that they didn't seed life where the Tholians were because it was too inhospitable for their form of life. Remember, Tholians require extreme heat so they would likely have developed in a place that the precursors never bothered to do anything with.
@@citizensnips7949I guess the most logical answer would be that most species were seeded but not all. Again, I think it's one of the more weaker components of Star Trek lore. It raises all kind of questions more than it answers and it still doesn't answer the question why many species end up at the same level of technology roughly at the same time in a span of billions of years. Even if you assume it is preprogrammed in their DNA with some kind of timer it again leaves you wondering about the Tholians and Horta et cetera.
@@mattvanderford4920Yea, lorereloaded often sounds like someone who only ever read a synopsis for each episode. I constantly find myself wondering if he even watches the show
The biggest issue with this hypothesis is the Borg getting from the Alpha quadrant to the Delta quadrant. Yes, a wormhole or other anomaly could do it. I suppose it could happen, but I'm skeptical.
The Romulans are in the Beta quadrant, the Federation are the ones who primarily occupies the Alpha quadrant. Not that it makes much difference, it's still a long way to go to get to the space they occupied during the time of Voyager. But we're also talking about hundreds to a few thousand years, so plenty of time really to travel the distance before transwarp conduits.
I suppose this coukd be solved, depending on when and how the borg got there hand on transwarp tech. Maybe the ran aaway with the romulans chasing them, only escaping when the assimilated a race with transräwarp ability, thus outpacing the romulans. Personaly i think the whole theory is kinda weak, but its a fun thought expirement
@@thestrange_1 And we don't know whether it's the case or not, but there would be a whole lot of assimilated planets between the Romulans and the Borg of the Delta Quadrant
I never liked the Romulan theory about the Borg. Maybe there was an ancient race that was exploring the stars in a massive ship (millions of them on one ship). It crashed on a inhospitable planet that left most of them dead or dying. The only way that they could survive is the blend themselves with their technology, hence the Borg were created.
The Romunals being a nation that left Vulcan is pretty explicit in a history both groups are aware of in their history and given the fact Romulan members of Starfleet are only known if they admit to those origins so it's pretty safe to say their Vulcan origins is safely established and their difference from the Vulcans is a cultural one given how recent that splitting off is, on a scale comparable to North and South American settlers from their home countries or the Okinawans from the Japanese home islands. We don't see ourselves as different species but we do see ourselves as distinct cultures.
@@LoreReloaded there mere fact both independently accept it as a factual part of their history and the fact both cannot be genetically distinguished is pretty open and shut, if everyone in universe treats it as a fact then it's probably just how things are.
My thoughts are that the Romulans were once the Vulcan military. When peace broke out on Vulcan the military was no longer needed so they left. The Vulcan military had always used strict adherence to duty to control their emotions. That is why we see it so much in Balance of Terror and in The Enterprise Incident. As for the absence of the Romulans I think they may have been dealing with the Q during that time. The Q finally decided against the Romulans and, no prize for guessing correctly, destroyed the Romulan Empire by blowing up their sun
Maybe not the military but those the opposed Surak's view of what later became the Vulcan Way. Not all pre-Surak Vulcans would have been converted to his vision of a peaceful planet, in harmony with itself and it's planet. Even by the time of Enterprise, many of old Vulcan's ways were still in use - the Vulcans of that period were not as emotionless as seen in TOS. Vulcan from the outside seemed logic bound and peaceful, but there was still plenty going on at home that would clash with Surak's views of life. Like all belief systems, his world view became changed and distorted over time, as new generations brought their own ideas and personalities to the table. In The Animated Series, we see young Spock being tormented by his fellow Vulcan students, he gets punished by his father but they are not. That shows that they are born as emotional as we are, if not more, but learn to embrace logic as they grow up. The Romulans just chose another path, one that led them off-world to create their own society, but both are still the same people at heart.
Remember The Expanse and the Mormon ship Nauvoo? The Romulans are actually part of the Vulcans who left Vulcan in a similar way. Raptor's Wing could be the name of their colonisation ship, so they call themselves as "Those who fly Beneath the Raptor's Wing". The fact they didn't show up for a long time may be because they spent a long time building a new civilization and didn't have the resources for conquest, and they didn't start it until sometime in the 22nd century.
TOS and TNG both describe Vulcans and Romulans as being much closer to each other genetically, and there was a two-parter in TNG where Spock shows up on Romulus. He befriends a young Romulan who shows him children's toys, which have Vulcan symbols and (according to Spock) are supposed to introduce the basics of Vulcan Logical Philosophy. The problem, of course, is that many modern writers (not just Trek writers) don't want to pay attention to the history of the worlds they're writing in. This leads to SHINY NEW HISTORY! They were actually these other aliens all along! And so on.
Great writers create a galaxy spanning race more ancient than the oldest space going races in the Alpha or Beta quadrant and now they're offspring to a race which is itself a sub-race to people who only went into space 3000 years before Johnathon Archers Enterprise. I hate modern Star Trek.
@@adamweisshaupso TNG era counts as modern Trek to you? Because the lore of the Borg hasn't changed since then. This "theory" is mainly based on TNG, Enterprise, and TOS.
@@LoreReloaded as yes so you did 2:30 my bad missed it on my first watch through 😅 My point was it takes 70+yrs to get to the Delta quadrant using a warp 9 engine as far as I'm aware alpha/beta quadrant powers only got to those speeds in 24th century ish now as you pointed out yeah its possible they found a wormhole or some other stella phenomenon to short cut the journey, usually those shown in star trek are one way or unstable. So in short your thoery is possible but a bit of a stretch. More likely there origin is a species that's similar to the Bynars and started cybernetically enhancing themselves(maybe for some sort of ecological/medical reason) that got out of hand or this might have been it's intended outcome
Well we know from Star Trek Picard s2 that there are two groups of Borg. The original Borg and new ones led by a assimilated Agnes Jurati go off at the end.
"Were the Borg Actually Created By The Romulans?" Not unless they were able to travel back in time and halfway across the galaxy after their first interaction with the pre-federation coalition of planetary systems.
@@LoreReloaded "I've addressed those concerns.. thoughts on that" I understand that a lot of people do not consider written novels to be "cannon." But those novels can not be written and published without the approval of the people who own the rights to Star Trek. And since the owners of the rights to Star Trek gave the writers the okay to publish the stories they are "cannon." And the origin for the Borg where detailed in those three Star Trek Destiny novels: “Gods of Night,” “Mere Mortals,” and “Lost Souls.” No where in them were the Romulans mentioned. But these days, producers play very loosely with continuity and often treat it with contempt. It is up to you, but I personally would not humor them.
@@oldtimefarmboy617 you may need to read the books again. The first battle of the Earth-Romulan war is what caused the NX-02 to travel to the Caeliar, and from there matters escalated, timey-wimey shenanigans ensued, and the Borg happened. The Romulans didn't create the Borg directly, but they set events in motion
@@ZoeMalDoran Perhaps, but that is not what the new shows are implying, which is that the Romulans are directly responsible for the creation of the Borg.
1:37 My understanding is that Romulans and Vulcans were the same species, but there was a religious-type schism that led to one group going off on their own.
Well there's plenty yet to be explained about the Romulans. From just TNG we see proto Vulcan society in "Who watches the watchers" So it's quite possible that the people under the raptor's wings traveled from Vulcan and found a compatible people on what would be later called Eart... er Romulus. I try to avoid Klutzman Trek as much as possible. So with that I can see them doing all kinds of experiments to gain advantage for themselves. As they seem to be paranoid to the extreme not to be in a weaken power position. That would explain the remote drone mimic ship. Along with the advanced cloaked mines amd ships. So why not do body enhancement experiments too. Instead of doing like the Huumans did with DNA. They did so with nanites and technical enhancement. Of course like soo many things it got way out of hand and had to be stopped. That would explain how a small remnant say a collective, survived and just like the Romulans went across the stars and founded what we know now as the Borg. That would explain how the Borg started out as a small collection of systems that grew over the centuries to the threat they later became. It makes for nice explainable work.
And taking the story of Picard season one and Romulan distaste for artificial intelligence, it's possible the Romulans were experimenting with AI, and it went very wrong, that's why they banned it.
Without a definitive origin story for the Borg, anything and everything is possible, unfortunately. Definitively the Borg are centuries old and based out of the Delta Quadrant; time travel exists in the franchise; The Hansens were able to encounter the collective via The Raven, which it's been ages since I've watched that episode but I don't remember anything about wormholes or transwarp being used; the Zhat Vash are vehemently against AI; the Romulans had possession of The Artifact cube. It's impossible using conventional warp travel or linear time. The collective also doesn't make use of cloaking technology. I don't know if we know if they use an artificial black hole as their warp core or equivalent. Borg tech is clearly way more advanced. Both species are convinced of their own superiority. Romulans rely on subterfuge rather than brute force. I liked the Star Trek Destiny novel origin hypothesis, and if that is possible, I guess something similar here is as well, although it requires extraordinary circumstances.
I prefer the idea, that the romulans found an ionian base, that had teleport doors and some ai technology, which the romulans used/abused. At some point they started to enhance themselves with that ionian Tech. Then somehow an ai got a hold of one or a couple of enhanced romulans and created the borg. The romulans managed to somewhat defeat the borg, but couldnt kill them, so they transported the borg with one of the ionian gates, destroying it afterward. That way the borg got into the delta quadrant but had a slow start, since they were basically stranded there
My understanding is the Borg is everywhere, they have different “tribes” in every quadrant probably being controlled by a massive “capital” hive. It could also be that the Q and other species are a evolved versions of the human race and the Borg could also be a major branch in that tree of life...
If you go by visual canon a piece of the Borg wall was used in Star Trek 3 and they reused the Borg Transporter affect for Romulans. I'm not sure of all the other reusers. Well we know from voyager: Dragon's Teeth "GEDRIN: You're Borg. SEVEN: How do you know that? GEDRIN: Don't you recognise my people? The Vaadwaur? SEVEN: The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary. GEDRIN: I've had many encounters with your kind. EMH: And lived to tell about them? Impressive." Later in episode "GEDRIN: The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague. No offence. SEVEN: None taken" In enterprise regeneration at the end they get the coordinates for the Borg homeworld in the Delta quadrant. The reason they disappeared before TNG for 50 years in non-canon was because they were at war with the gorn a neighbouring species. I've always just thought that the Borg originated somewhere in the Delta quadrant a long time ago and just spread outwards.
You quoted Guinan in TNG stating that they did predate those species by millennia. At least predate their technological eras. She may be wrong but she usually isn't. The collective's memory from long back is fragmented, according to Seven of Nine (Voyager), so that adds little info. I think your theory is plausible, but I think the strongest evidence for it is the recent series not the older ones & I think there are still multiple possibilities, but watching the recent series gave me the same idea as you.
@@rmcdudmk212 That is a thought considering how the Borg have used time travel on multiple occasions to assimilate the more difficult races into the collective.
Wouldn't say they've got an Origin that anyone in universe created. Seeing how absurdly powerful apparently the ENTIRE Trek universe regards them. An IF that's even partially their Origin it's SO back Kaless was running round with Ancient Klingons, an Vulcans were FAR FAR away from being the ultimate logical race still an "Humans who??" The whole Trek verse would say would think. Especially since Borg as we know them are basically SPECIES killers. With just 1 Cube. When about EVERYONE ELSE. Even distinguished powerful factions like the Klingons, Romulus, Cardis, Dominion an even Feds all seem to require good sized fleets to do similar few times any of them are known to tried.
Assuming no interference from Q or any higher beings, can Starfleet, Post Dominion War, survive an infestation of the Flood from Halo? Given that the Forerunners were far more advanced than Starfleet, what would happen if the Flood began infecting planets outside the Federation's reach? Would the galaxy succumb to the Flood, or does Starfleet have an ace up their sleeve when dealing with threats like the Flood?
The Rihannsu Imperium *is* the sort to make such a monster as the Borg with the aim of coercing the rest of the galaxy to fall in line under the "Raptor's Wing" so to speak, but no way would they not have an automatic "kill code" imbedded into their own mechanical monsters should such a dangerous menace get loose- they're not that dumb; not by a long-shot.
The question is, why would they create them? Even accidentally and if we accept that the romulans are much older than usually thought? Wouldn't the Zhat Vash existing slow down research into AI and nanites, since they're trying to avoid machine intelligence being created? The Romulans seeming to regress in technology isn't necessarily a fair judgement, when every technology can eventually be countered. Mimicking a ship is only valuable as long as the enemy doesn't have sensors good enough. Superweapons are only as good as the enemy's shields are incapable of stopping them. And we definitely know a technology's look doesn't always indicate that it's actually newer. I also don't see much evidence of them being connected except the potential timeframe? I'm happy accepting that the Romulan empire is older than the Borg, but so are many, many other factions in the galaxy.
this connects so well for a theory i had for a long time about the romulan/vulcan history. What if earth was a occupied by the vulcan empire before the split happened. I allways though that roman empire had helmets that would hide the ears were a good point to start with.. and it would give intresting implications to the history of earth in trek.. i mean thats why the vulcans were there in first contact in the first place.. and so on. Also this borg origin theory explains why the needed to grow so strong and then the split happened because of their shift in philosophy because of earth because cant be the opressor to win a war against maschines.
Interesting idea but I’m. Or convinced as the boss were more interested in earth and the feds. Otherwise it would be a romulan planet they would have been heading for in onset of both worlds.
i absolutely hate this theory it to me makes no sense that the romulans created the borg! 1:19 WHAT! the romulans didnt evolve on romulus they are just a branch of the vulcans who refused to shed there emotions and were cast out of vulcan society over the years they slowly changed to become the romulans we know today both the vulcans and romulans share a direct ancestry.
Naaaaah,but thanks. My reasoning for the Romulan disappearances was them off screwing around on the far side of the Beta quadrant. I always digg your vids though.
So while I can't find any information about this in my Star Trek Chronology book I think possibly early on in the creation of Star Trek that might have been an idea. But as time wore on that seemed very unlikely. The Borg chances are were created but some race true but not the Romulans. I say this because there are several races older than all of the prime powers of the Aplha Quadrant, we Ruk, Vaal, Norman all of whom are ancient forms of Andriods and A.I. yet are advance by 23rd century tech. Not to mention there are races even older The race that built the Guardian of Forever is probably the oldest but you have the Tkon Empire which predated the Founders. So whenever the Romulans went into hiding as it's called more than likely they started fighting another race on the opposite end of its empire and stayed away from the Federation until they felt better prepared.
So this video does that thing that fan theorists do that I hate, they take random comments from people and treat it as Gosple turth. Maybe Guinan was speaking colloquially. Maybe the Vodwar was wrong.
@@LoreReloaded there's not much to break down. Sometimes people talk out of their butts. There's no reason to assume fictional people don't do the same. We have one point of view character who is an authority on Borg history, and that's Seven. And even she says early Borg history is fragmentary. There's no reason to assume precision out of any other character's statements.
@@LoreReloaded Voyager already did much damage to Borg lore there is no reason to degrade them to a science project gone wrong. I preferred your video on the idea that the Borg have gone through many different irritations over the millennia.
That´s an interesting theory but... if the Romulans created the BORG their technology would have to be thousands of years ahead of the Federation and Klingons. For that we have no signs anywhere. Furthermore - even if you could explain their cyclical regressions in technology with some organization that destroys AI, somehow the Romulans must have been able to "deal" with the BORG even before the Federation had first contact with either, the BORG and the Romulans. Is it really plausible that the Romulans had tech so advanced that they would have been able to escape assimilation? Even 23rd century Romulans wouldn´t be able to really push back on the BORG if they had sent more than 1 cube (I believe). Romulan tech was not much more advanced than that of the Feds for maybe a few decades and then fell behind the Federation. So, in the end I don´t see any evidence in canon that the Romulans actually created the BORG. They just weren´t technologically advanced enough and even if some early AI experiment would have gone bad, those BORG would have assimilated the Romulans centuries ago.
@@jimbeam4736 In season 2 of TNG both the Romulans and the Federation discovered Iconian gateway technology that opened portals allowing people to travel instantaneously between different corners of the galaxy, but it was lost by the end of the episode. In DS9 the Dominion discovered another Iconian gateway, but it was also destroyed in that episode. So, there's precedence for this kind of scenario in Trek. The Romulans could have tickered with advanced alien tech, then lost it after something went awry.
I appreciate your logic in this essay, I just dont understand how the Vulcans fit into this theory considering that the Romulans and Vulcans share direct ancestry?
I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if I am, but I believed the Borg predated the Sundering. When the Borg first arose and established the Romulans weren't Romulans quite yet. With both Vulcans and Romulans sharing lineage I'm curious as to where they'd fit in.
@@LoreReloaded Timelines stated: Guinean: The Borg are "made up of organic and artificial life...which has been developing for thousands of centuries." In another episode of VOY it is referenced that the Borg had only assimilated a few colonies in the Delta Quadrant, 892 years in the past. Whatever the case, the Delta Quadrant origins are clear. I mean, it's a fictional universe and you can write anything into canon if you really wanted to. But why this theory. It suffers from what most fanfiction suffers from: small universe syndrome. Just like how the Borg is related to V'ger. Just no.
One issue I have with this theory is that it doesn't make sense for the Borg to attack the Federation home world rather than Romulus "when they came back". If they were really gunning for their former "creators"/"masters"/"enemies", they would have been more likely to go after them instead of picking a fight with a whole new adversary first. Another nit pick would be the "disappearance" of the Romulans. You make it sound like they went away to hide from the Borg or something. The reality is they just retreated behind their borders like a bunch of shut-ins. They were always still there occupying their space, they just didn't interact with anyone outside of their space (or at least not with Federation-aligned worlds).
I heard some mad doctor took some of control and and used to go ba k intoned tword the delta quadent and used red matter and he became the first bireg ir sonthing lije that.
Or...the Borg are the reminents od an ancient civilization that succumbed to technology and became the Borg. Guinan even stated that the Borg are "made up of organic and artificial life...which has been developing for...thousands of centuries." However old the Borg are, it's very clear their origins are in the Delta Quadrant.
And in the (non-canon) Destiny trilogy of Star Trek books, the Earth-Romulan war did create the Borg... via timey-wimey shenanigans, but it was the Romulan attack on the Columbia NX-02 that kicked it all off
Have any of the writers/produces hinted at this being possible? It's an interesting theory, although...Picard, Seven, Hugh, or any other Borg may have had some access to Borg origin data while they were part of the collective. Assuming they were allowed to access that sort of data, Picard would have recognized any involvement the Romulans may have had in the creation of the Borg. Then there is Q. Knowing how much Q loved to torment Picard he probably would have dropped a few hints about their origin...just to see Picard jump through some fiery hoops again, and to gloat.
@@DanBen07 I understand it's not part of the prime timeline, but hey I personally find the legacy timeline to be more intriguing even if it's not as fleshed out. plus in the legacy timeline you have the proxima class battlecruiser and I love that ship class and it's refit.
They aren't according to the US Government and many, many historical sources. If that's what's going to trip you up though.. you probably won't like my channel.. which is fine. We all have our preferences
The Cannon origin of the borg was spoken about by Seven shortly after she came onboard Voyager. "When the Borg first arrived in this galactic cluster."
Seven indicated they're not only not from this galaxy, but not from this galaxy cluster.
It is also worth noting that the Borg label different subjects numerical, drones are given numerical designations rather then names (Hince 7 of 9.) They label every species they come across numerically in numerical chronological order, in accordance to when they first came across that species. The species that first invented the Borg would naturally be the first species they came across, as that would be the species that is present at the vary origin of the Borg, so that species would be recorded in the Borg hive mind as Species 1 or Species 0. So the question to ask now would be, what is the Borg record species number of the Romulun species?
I'm sure the authors just didn't think and meant a star cluster within the galaxy.
If the Borg were an intergalactic civilization, the Milky Way would have been overrun long ago.
Although the Romulan-Borg Theory is ehhh they still do have a history of Borg encounters.
In Canon the Borg destroyed their colonise along the neutral zone assimilating at least 1 romulan seen in voyager as part of the Borg Cooperative.
The Borg reclimation project by the romulans on the Artifact, one of the spoils being a Temporal transmitter seen in voyager timeless.
And they used borg tech to upgrade the narada from a mining ship to a colossal monstrocity.
In STO the Romulan Star Empire specifically te Tal Shiar began experimanting on ships and people with borg tech.
I think it's much more interesting if they are an mysterious ancient alien race that has little in common with the known Alpha Quadrant species, just as they were in Q Who
I like to think the Borg started with the joining of Decker and Vger
They existence before that when nomad was as captured or rescued repaired then sent out the Borg were tracking it equipped it with a adaptive sheilding
I know it's tangential at best but I do love that TNG took the time to explain how every alien looks like humans with stuff on their face and did it in a way that was not just annoying exposition. It made some sense within the universe and it was a fun and interesting episode.
Never really liked that one. If it was up to me I would have gone for the boring theory of convergent evolution.
Actually, this raises some questions. If all species in the alpha quadrant were seeded by super advanced aliens to be humanoid, where did the Tholians come from? Why are they crab people?
@@citizensnips7949 I see a few possibilities. The most likely would be that they didn't seed life where the Tholians were because it was too inhospitable for their form of life. Remember, Tholians require extreme heat so they would likely have developed in a place that the precursors never bothered to do anything with.
@@citizensnips7949I guess the most logical answer would be that most species were seeded but not all. Again, I think it's one of the more weaker components of Star Trek lore. It raises all kind of questions more than it answers and it still doesn't answer the question why many species end up at the same level of technology roughly at the same time in a span of billions of years. Even if you assume it is preprogrammed in their DNA with some kind of timer it again leaves you wondering about the Tholians and Horta et cetera.
That was one of my favorite episodes.
I thought it was cannon the romulans left Vulcan long ago, and in TNG timeframe Spock was attempting reintegration of the two.
It is.
it is. This video is dumb
And that’s why I shut it off and stopped listing
Maybe it was the greys
@@mattvanderford4920Yea, lorereloaded often sounds like someone who only ever read a synopsis for each episode. I constantly find myself wondering if he even watches the show
The Borg began in the Delta Quadrant. This has been stated numerous times in Trek lore.
The biggest issue with this hypothesis is the Borg getting from the Alpha quadrant to the Delta quadrant. Yes, a wormhole or other anomaly could do it. I suppose it could happen, but I'm skeptical.
The Romulans are in the Beta quadrant, the Federation are the ones who primarily occupies the Alpha quadrant. Not that it makes much difference, it's still a long way to go to get to the space they occupied during the time of Voyager. But we're also talking about hundreds to a few thousand years, so plenty of time really to travel the distance before transwarp conduits.
I suppose this coukd be solved, depending on when and how the borg got there hand on transwarp tech. Maybe the ran aaway with the romulans chasing them, only escaping when the assimilated a race with transräwarp ability, thus outpacing the romulans.
Personaly i think the whole theory is kinda weak, but its a fun thought expirement
@@thestrange_1 And we don't know whether it's the case or not, but there would be a whole lot of assimilated planets between the Romulans and the Borg of the Delta Quadrant
It may have taken them a thousand years to make the journey, which is why they didn't advance much until they got there and found a world to control.
Is it a problem though? Voyager found a temporal wormhole in the Delta Quadrant.
I never liked the Romulan theory about the Borg. Maybe there was an ancient race that was exploring the stars in a massive ship (millions of them on one ship). It crashed on a inhospitable planet that left most of them dead or dying. The only way that they could survive is the blend themselves with their technology, hence the Borg were created.
Wow, that would be awesome
AKA: Destiny-verse origin. Google Caeliar
The Romunals being a nation that left Vulcan is pretty explicit in a history both groups are aware of in their history and given the fact Romulan members of Starfleet are only known if they admit to those origins so it's pretty safe to say their Vulcan origins is safely established and their difference from the Vulcans is a cultural one given how recent that splitting off is, on a scale comparable to North and South American settlers from their home countries or the Okinawans from the Japanese home islands. We don't see ourselves as different species but we do see ourselves as distinct cultures.
It's actually not though. The strongest evidence is in enterprise but there is ALOT of ambiguity
@@LoreReloaded there mere fact both independently accept it as a factual part of their history and the fact both cannot be genetically distinguished is pretty open and shut, if everyone in universe treats it as a fact then it's probably just how things are.
The explanation in the Destiny books is my mind canon
That is a fascinating story.
My thoughts are that the Romulans were once the Vulcan military. When peace broke out on Vulcan the military was no longer needed so they left. The Vulcan military had always used strict adherence to duty to control their emotions. That is why we see it so much in Balance of Terror and in The Enterprise Incident. As for the absence of the Romulans I think they may have been dealing with the Q during that time. The Q finally decided against the Romulans and, no prize for guessing correctly, destroyed the Romulan Empire by blowing up their sun
Maybe not the military but those the opposed Surak's view of what later became the Vulcan Way. Not all pre-Surak Vulcans would have been converted to his vision of a peaceful planet, in harmony with itself and it's planet. Even by the time of Enterprise, many of old Vulcan's ways were still in use - the Vulcans of that period were not as emotionless as seen in TOS. Vulcan from the outside seemed logic bound and peaceful, but there was still plenty going on at home that would clash with Surak's views of life.
Like all belief systems, his world view became changed and distorted over time, as new generations brought their own ideas and personalities to the table. In The Animated Series, we see young Spock being tormented by his fellow Vulcan students, he gets punished by his father but they are not. That shows that they are born as emotional as we are, if not more, but learn to embrace logic as they grow up. The Romulans just chose another path, one that led them off-world to create their own society, but both are still the same people at heart.
I like that theory!
@@AlexandarHullRichterThank you. I am researching for a video now where I explain my theory in more detail.
Remember The Expanse and the Mormon ship Nauvoo? The Romulans are actually part of the Vulcans who left Vulcan in a similar way. Raptor's Wing could be the name of their colonisation ship, so they call themselves as "Those who fly Beneath the Raptor's Wing". The fact they didn't show up for a long time may be because they spent a long time building a new civilization and didn't have the resources for conquest, and they didn't start it until sometime in the 22nd century.
@@tomasr. I haven't seen The Expanse yet.
I can confirm that while the Romulans had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the Borg, we WILL Exploit it's technology to the fullest.
The Borg were evolved from that thing in 'Enterprise' that pretended to be a ship repair space station.
Wasn't it confirmed that the Romulans were offshoots of the Vulcans?
TOS and TNG both describe Vulcans and Romulans as being much closer to each other genetically, and there was a two-parter in TNG where Spock shows up on Romulus. He befriends a young Romulan who shows him children's toys, which have Vulcan symbols and (according to Spock) are supposed to introduce the basics of Vulcan Logical Philosophy.
The problem, of course, is that many modern writers (not just Trek writers) don't want to pay attention to the history of the worlds they're writing in. This leads to SHINY NEW HISTORY! They were actually these other aliens all along! And so on.
Great writers create a galaxy spanning race more ancient than the oldest space going races in the Alpha or Beta quadrant and now they're offspring to a race which is itself a sub-race to people who only went into space 3000 years before Johnathon Archers Enterprise. I hate modern Star Trek.
Hate Modern Star Trek because of someone’s theory, that’s totally how criticizing a franchise works
@@thechroniclegamer4285 I didn't even watch this video. I'm speaking of the current lore regarding the Borg. There, now you're up to speed.
@@adamweisshaup the Borg aren’t offspring of a specific race
@@adamweisshaupso TNG era counts as modern Trek to you? Because the lore of the Borg hasn't changed since then. This "theory" is mainly based on TNG, Enterprise, and TOS.
In voy epi "dragons teeth" Gedrin of the Vaadwaur said he knows of the Borg and that was from 900yrs ago
I show that clip
@@LoreReloaded as yes so you did 2:30 my bad missed it on my first watch through 😅
My point was it takes 70+yrs to get to the Delta quadrant using a warp 9 engine as far as I'm aware alpha/beta quadrant powers only got to those speeds in 24th century ish now as you pointed out yeah its possible they found a wormhole or some other stella phenomenon to short cut the journey, usually those shown in star trek are one way or unstable.
So in short your thoery is possible but a bit of a stretch.
More likely there origin is a species that's similar to the Bynars and started cybernetically enhancing themselves(maybe for some sort of ecological/medical reason) that got out of hand or this might have been it's intended outcome
Is it possible that there are different iterations of the Borg?
Well we know from Star Trek Picard s2 that there are two groups of Borg. The original Borg and new ones led by a assimilated Agnes Jurati go off at the end.
"Were the Borg Actually Created By The Romulans?"
Not unless they were able to travel back in time and halfway across the galaxy after their first interaction with the pre-federation coalition of planetary systems.
I've addressed those concerns.. thoughts on that
@@LoreReloaded
"I've addressed those concerns.. thoughts on that"
I understand that a lot of people do not consider written novels to be "cannon." But those novels can not be written and published without the approval of the people who own the rights to Star Trek.
And since the owners of the rights to Star Trek gave the writers the okay to publish the stories they are "cannon."
And the origin for the Borg where detailed in those three Star Trek Destiny novels: “Gods of Night,” “Mere Mortals,” and “Lost Souls.”
No where in them were the Romulans mentioned. But these days, producers play very loosely with continuity and often treat it with contempt. It is up to you, but I personally would not humor them.
@@oldtimefarmboy617 you may need to read the books again. The first battle of the Earth-Romulan war is what caused the NX-02 to travel to the Caeliar, and from there matters escalated, timey-wimey shenanigans ensued, and the Borg happened. The Romulans didn't create the Borg directly, but they set events in motion
@@ZoeMalDoran
Perhaps, but that is not what the new shows are implying, which is that the Romulans are directly responsible for the creation of the Borg.
@@oldtimefarmboy617 hmm. I never got that impression from Picard, or the first 3 seasons of Lower Decks
i always had assumed the Q genetically-evolved themselves into gods and the Borg techno-cyborged themselves into gods
The Q don't mess with the Borg.
@@DanBen07 its the old Stellaris "Psionic Ascension build" versus "Synthetic Ascension build". i always think of everything through Stellaris
@@beepboop204same
And now we wait for the arguments.....
Chambers has clearly run out of material. Aint no Borg came Romulans.
1:37 My understanding is that Romulans and Vulcans were the same species, but there was a religious-type schism that led to one group going off on their own.
Schism is a very mild word for nuclear war. :)
Well there's plenty yet to be explained about the Romulans. From just TNG we see proto Vulcan society in "Who watches the watchers" So it's quite possible that the people under the raptor's wings traveled from Vulcan and found a compatible people on what would be later called Eart... er Romulus.
I try to avoid Klutzman Trek as much as possible.
So with that I can see them doing all kinds of experiments to gain advantage for themselves. As they seem to be paranoid to the extreme not to be in a weaken power position. That would explain the remote drone mimic ship. Along with the advanced cloaked mines amd ships.
So why not do body enhancement experiments too. Instead of doing like the Huumans did with DNA. They did so with nanites and technical enhancement. Of course like soo many things it got way out of hand and had to be stopped. That would explain how a small remnant say a collective, survived and just like the Romulans went across the stars and founded what we know now as the Borg. That would explain how the Borg started out as a small collection of systems that grew over the centuries to the threat they later became. It makes for nice explainable work.
And taking the story of Picard season one and Romulan distaste for artificial intelligence, it's possible the Romulans were experimenting with AI, and it went very wrong, that's why they banned it.
Without a definitive origin story for the Borg, anything and everything is possible, unfortunately. Definitively the Borg are centuries old and based out of the Delta Quadrant; time travel exists in the franchise; The Hansens were able to encounter the collective via The Raven, which it's been ages since I've watched that episode but I don't remember anything about wormholes or transwarp being used; the Zhat Vash are vehemently against AI; the Romulans had possession of The Artifact cube.
It's impossible using conventional warp travel or linear time. The collective also doesn't make use of cloaking technology. I don't know if we know if they use an artificial black hole as their warp core or equivalent. Borg tech is clearly way more advanced. Both species are convinced of their own superiority. Romulans rely on subterfuge rather than brute force.
I liked the Star Trek Destiny novel origin hypothesis, and if that is possible, I guess something similar here is as well, although it requires extraordinary circumstances.
I prefer the idea, that the romulans found an ionian base, that had teleport doors and some ai technology, which the romulans used/abused.
At some point they started to enhance themselves with that ionian Tech.
Then somehow an ai got a hold of one or a couple of enhanced romulans and created the borg.
The romulans managed to somewhat defeat the borg, but couldnt kill them, so they transported the borg with one of the ionian gates, destroying it afterward. That way the borg got into the delta quadrant but had a slow start, since they were basically stranded there
When does part 2 of the Timelapse of the Dominion war
My understanding is the Borg is everywhere, they have different “tribes” in every quadrant probably being controlled by a massive “capital” hive. It could also be that the Q and other species are a evolved versions of the human race and the Borg could also be a major branch in that tree of life...
If get the chance to time-travel I'll make LR change his ringtone to the single piano note theme before recording this video
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Definitely no.
If you go by visual canon a piece of the Borg wall was used in Star Trek 3 and they reused the Borg Transporter affect for Romulans. I'm not sure of all the other reusers.
Well we know from voyager: Dragon's Teeth "GEDRIN: You're Borg.
SEVEN: How do you know that?
GEDRIN: Don't you recognise my people? The Vaadwaur?
SEVEN: The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary.
GEDRIN: I've had many encounters with your kind.
EMH: And lived to tell about them? Impressive." Later in episode "GEDRIN: The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague. No offence.
SEVEN: None taken"
In enterprise regeneration at the end they get the coordinates for the Borg homeworld in the Delta quadrant.
The reason they disappeared before TNG for 50 years in non-canon was because they were at war with the gorn a neighbouring species.
I've always just thought that the Borg originated somewhere in the Delta quadrant a long time ago and just spread outwards.
They did, and it was at least like 16k years ago WAY before the Romulans even cracked the atom.
Would play into the Picard line of how the Romulans hate androids and the Borg especially.
I wonder what happens to Lore's old sign off saying. Everyone has a story so make yours a good one.
The Borg Queen is a Romulan Praetoress who got rogue A.I Beyond that there are Iconian Gateways
The Borg predate the Romulans by longer than the Romulans have existed, so no.
Not according to dialogue in ToS and TNG
You quoted Guinan in TNG stating that they did predate those species by millennia. At least predate their technological eras. She may be wrong but she usually isn't. The collective's memory from long back is fragmented, according to Seven of Nine (Voyager), so that adds little info. I think your theory is plausible, but I think the strongest evidence for it is the recent series not the older ones & I think there are still multiple possibilities, but watching the recent series gave me the same idea as you.
@@gliberty42did they or was it time travel shenanigans?
@@rmcdudmk212
That is a thought considering how the Borg have used time travel on multiple occasions to assimilate the more difficult races into the collective.
@@theturquoisedream9244 maybe the Borg traveled back in time to avoid a curb stomping via Romulan boots.
Literally using Red letter media’s joke theory as a real theory
I honestly had no idea red letter media had this theory
@@LoreReloaded I believe it’s in episode 1 or 2-3 of their series on Picard
Wouldn't say they've got an Origin that anyone in universe created. Seeing how absurdly powerful apparently the ENTIRE Trek universe regards them. An IF that's even partially their Origin it's SO back Kaless was running round with Ancient Klingons, an Vulcans were FAR FAR away from being the ultimate logical race still an "Humans who??" The whole Trek verse would say would think. Especially since Borg as we know them are basically SPECIES killers. With just 1 Cube. When about EVERYONE ELSE. Even distinguished powerful factions like the Klingons, Romulus, Cardis, Dominion an even Feds all seem to require good sized fleets to do similar few times any of them are known to tried.
great point
I'm thinking some apple pie, some coffee and later some ice coke and well maybe a nice warm bath, slippers and a blanket after that.
Assuming no interference from Q or any higher beings, can Starfleet, Post Dominion War, survive an infestation of the Flood from Halo?
Given that the Forerunners were far more advanced than Starfleet, what would happen if the Flood began infecting planets outside the Federation's reach? Would the galaxy succumb to the Flood, or does Starfleet have an ace up their sleeve when dealing with threats like the Flood?
The Rihannsu Imperium *is* the sort to make such a monster as the Borg with the aim of coercing the rest of the galaxy to fall in line under the "Raptor's Wing" so to speak, but no way would they not have an automatic "kill code" imbedded into their own mechanical monsters should such a dangerous menace get loose- they're not that dumb; not by a long-shot.
isn't it cannon that the romulans split from the vulcans, because of logic becoming like a religion on vulcan, and they rebelled against it? i'm lost.
i think thats a lot of stretches
Interesting theroy that holds some water. Regarless of if its true or not im sure this will trigger some fan-boy even mentioning it. 😂
You should do video on why th Q are afraid of the Borg with their powers?
I have actually- couple of videos on it being a proxy war
The question is, why would they create them? Even accidentally and if we accept that the romulans are much older than usually thought? Wouldn't the Zhat Vash existing slow down research into AI and nanites, since they're trying to avoid machine intelligence being created?
The Romulans seeming to regress in technology isn't necessarily a fair judgement, when every technology can eventually be countered. Mimicking a ship is only valuable as long as the enemy doesn't have sensors good enough. Superweapons are only as good as the enemy's shields are incapable of stopping them. And we definitely know a technology's look doesn't always indicate that it's actually newer.
I also don't see much evidence of them being connected except the potential timeframe? I'm happy accepting that the Romulan empire is older than the Borg, but so are many, many other factions in the galaxy.
this connects so well for a theory i had for a long time about the romulan/vulcan history. What if earth was a occupied by the vulcan empire before the split happened. I allways though that roman empire had helmets that would hide the ears were a good point to start with.. and it would give intresting implications to the history of earth in trek.. i mean thats why the vulcans were there in first contact in the first place.. and so on.
Also this borg origin theory explains why the needed to grow so strong and then the split happened because of their shift in philosophy because of earth because cant be the opressor to win a war against maschines.
Wow! Fan theories are better than cannon!
Interesting idea but I’m. Or convinced as the boss were more interested in earth and the feds. Otherwise it would be a romulan planet they would have been heading for in onset of both worlds.
wtf..i cant find the Lore Reloaded Karaoke channel anywhere
the borg are older than the romulans.
It would kind of explain why they were shit scared of AI i picard.
i absolutely hate this theory it to me makes no sense that the romulans created the borg!
1:19 WHAT! the romulans didnt evolve on romulus they are just a branch of the vulcans who refused to shed there emotions and were cast out of vulcan society over the years they slowly changed to become the romulans we know today both the vulcans and romulans share a direct ancestry.
To be fair it is just a theory.... a trek theory.
@@LoreReloaded im sorry but your comment makes no sense to me as it feels like your trying to quote someone?
@@YoLo-bb2vc I'd encourage you to look up game theory - or mat pat
@@LoreReloaded ok
@@YoLo-bb2vc Glad to introduce someone to a good channel
Naaaaah,but thanks. My reasoning for the Romulan disappearances was them off screwing around on the far side of the Beta quadrant. I always digg your vids though.
From the title I didn't think I'd like this, but it's got the makings for a very interesting story I wouldn't mind seeing
So while I can't find any information about this in my Star Trek Chronology book I think possibly early on in the creation of Star Trek that might have been an idea. But as time wore on that seemed very unlikely. The Borg chances are were created but some race true but not the Romulans. I say this because there are several races older than all of the prime powers of the Aplha Quadrant, we Ruk, Vaal, Norman all of whom are ancient forms of Andriods and A.I. yet are advance by 23rd century tech. Not to mention there are races even older The race that built the Guardian of Forever is probably the oldest but you have the Tkon Empire which predated the Founders. So whenever the Romulans went into hiding as it's called more than likely they started fighting another race on the opposite end of its empire and stayed away from the Federation until they felt better prepared.
Or the Romulans were seemingly dormant because of internal strife.
So this video does that thing that fan theorists do that I hate, they take random comments from people and treat it as Gosple turth. Maybe Guinan was speaking colloquially. Maybe the Vodwar was wrong.
Be an interesting counter video or even just a long comment breaking it down
@@LoreReloaded there's not much to break down. Sometimes people talk out of their butts. There's no reason to assume fictional people don't do the same.
We have one point of view character who is an authority on Borg history, and that's Seven. And even she says early Borg history is fragmentary. There's no reason to assume precision out of any other character's statements.
Easy answer.....nooooooo😂
I have an awesome theory tho that I haven't finished laying down.
Love the BSG reference 👍🏾👍🏾
While I can always appreciate a good fan theory, Occam’s razor will not be kind on this one.
Not a fan of this theory. I perfer the Borg whole separate from the Alpha and Beta quadrants and developed on their own.
Something completely foreign does have its appeal for sure..
Wow now that’s scraping the bottom of the barrel.
It's amazing when people say that. I've seen it for years. I thought itbeas just an interesting take.
@@LoreReloaded Voyager already did much damage to Borg lore there is no reason to degrade them to a science project gone wrong. I preferred your video on the idea that the Borg have gone through many different irritations over the millennia.
That´s an interesting theory but... if the Romulans created the BORG their technology would have to be thousands of years ahead of the Federation and Klingons. For that we have no signs anywhere. Furthermore - even if you could explain their cyclical regressions in technology with some organization that destroys AI, somehow the Romulans must have been able to "deal" with the BORG even before the Federation had first contact with either, the BORG and the Romulans. Is it really plausible that the Romulans had tech so advanced that they would have been able to escape assimilation? Even 23rd century Romulans wouldn´t be able to really push back on the BORG if they had sent more than 1 cube (I believe). Romulan tech was not much more advanced than that of the Feds for maybe a few decades and then fell behind the Federation. So, in the end I don´t see any evidence in canon that the Romulans actually created the BORG. They just weren´t technologically advanced enough and even if some early AI experiment would have gone bad, those BORG would have assimilated the Romulans centuries ago.
Maybe the Romulans discovered advanced alien technology to pull it off.
@@rc8937 Why didn´t they use any of that advanced technology against the Federation, Klingons and Dominion?
@@jimbeam4736 In season 2 of TNG both the Romulans and the Federation discovered Iconian gateway technology that opened portals allowing people to travel instantaneously between different corners of the galaxy, but it was lost by the end of the episode. In DS9 the Dominion discovered another Iconian gateway, but it was also destroyed in that episode. So, there's precedence for this kind of scenario in Trek. The Romulans could have tickered with advanced alien tech, then lost it after something went awry.
I appreciate your logic in this essay, I just dont understand how the Vulcans fit into this theory considering that the Romulans and Vulcans share direct ancestry?
He is going for the take that they don’t. That’s far fetched but so is this whole theory.
bit of a reach on this one my dude
I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if I am, but I believed the Borg predated the Sundering. When the Borg first arose and established the Romulans weren't Romulans quite yet. With both Vulcans and Romulans sharing lineage I'm curious as to where they'd fit in.
The theory is cray cray - The Borg are many millenia old - They seriously outdate the Romulans, Vulcans, Terrans, even Ferengi
According to the originators - this isn't so.. if you go by timeliness stated
@@LoreReloaded Timelines stated:
Guinean: The Borg are "made up of organic and artificial life...which has been developing for thousands of centuries." In another episode of VOY it is referenced that the Borg had only assimilated a few colonies in the Delta Quadrant, 892 years in the past.
Whatever the case, the Delta Quadrant origins are clear.
I mean, it's a fictional universe and you can write anything into canon if you really wanted to. But why this theory. It suffers from what most fanfiction suffers from: small universe syndrome.
Just like how the Borg is related to V'ger. Just no.
One issue I have with this theory is that it doesn't make sense for the Borg to attack the Federation home world rather than Romulus "when they came back". If they were really gunning for their former "creators"/"masters"/"enemies", they would have been more likely to go after them instead of picking a fight with a whole new adversary first.
Another nit pick would be the "disappearance" of the Romulans. You make it sound like they went away to hide from the Borg or something. The reality is they just retreated behind their borders like a bunch of shut-ins. They were always still there occupying their space, they just didn't interact with anyone outside of their space (or at least not with Federation-aligned worlds).
I don't want to ever learn the origin story of the Borg. Nothing will be good enough. The mystery is better.
Dose anyone else thing the cjanglings created humanoid life
What???
I heard some mad doctor took some of control and and used to go ba k intoned tword the delta quadent and used red matter and he became the first bireg ir sonthing lije that.
Or...the Borg are the reminents od an ancient civilization that succumbed to technology and became the Borg. Guinan even stated that the Borg are "made up of organic and artificial life...which has been developing for...thousands of centuries." However old the Borg are, it's very clear their origins are in the Delta Quadrant.
Nope.
Simple answer: NO
No, no they weren’t
I'm convinced
And in the (non-canon) Destiny trilogy of Star Trek books, the Earth-Romulan war did create the Borg... via timey-wimey shenanigans, but it was the Romulan attack on the Columbia NX-02 that kicked it all off
There's not much here
Holy shit Lore you are capable of making a good video.
Have any of the writers/produces hinted at this being possible?
It's an interesting theory, although...Picard, Seven, Hugh, or any other Borg may have had some access to Borg origin data while they were part of the collective. Assuming they were allowed to access that sort of data, Picard would have recognized any involvement the Romulans may have had in the creation of the Borg. Then there is Q. Knowing how much Q loved to torment Picard he probably would have dropped a few hints about their origin...just to see Picard jump through some fiery hoops again, and to gloat.
What does CCE mean?
So the Borg are just the Romulan’s Badgey? 😁
I can explain the theory: LAZY WRITING!
you mean the vulcans right im talking about the one in star trek:legacy
That's none Canon but even some of the TV and film writers have said that's not the origin of the Borg.
@@DanBen07 I understand it's not part of the prime timeline, but hey I personally find the legacy timeline to be more intriguing even if it's not as fleshed out. plus in the legacy timeline you have the proxima class battlecruiser and I love that ship class and it's refit.
Boobies😊.That is all.
They are pretty great 👍
I hope this theory gets confirmed in on screen it would tie everything together nicely
FREE PALESTINE
I love Romulans so much I just want this to be true
Personally, I like Shatner's explanation from "The Return", no matter how debunked it is.
Boring
New trek writers and producers are irresponsible with the canon
This video lost me by using the term BCE and CE. The proper terms are BC ( Before Christ) And AD ( Anno Domini / Year Of Our Lord)
They aren't according to the US Government and many, many historical sources. If that's what's going to trip you up though.. you probably won't like my channel.. which is fine. We all have our preferences
Those are not the proper terms and are quite outdated. No one uses those terms anymore.