Borg Lore : Queen Inconsistencies and Seven of Nine Messiah
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.พ. 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
We're taking a look at the Star Trek Two Parter, Dark Frontier. Basically it's the Queen acting incosistent and the godhood of seven of nine.. A normal day in the neighborhood.
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The Borg amazing villains, but they suffer from writers choice, whatever the writers need them to do or have, they get, even if it contradicts previous appearances. And it’s up to us fans to try to piece it all together.
I always assumed that there were multiple unimatrices with several queens and several objectives. A bit like subroutines in a program.
Unimatrix 01 was always the first unimatrix and as a result had the objective of perfection. They were the ones who assimilated much of the Delta quadrant and created the other unimatrices in order to achieve perfection.
Another unimatrix (say 02) was in the Beta quadrant, this was the one that the Federation encountered. This unimatrix would be made for efficiency above all other things. They were the ones who deemed it fine to send single cubes to Earth as there wasn't any need to send any more.
Then another unimatrix (say 03) between the beta and delta quadrants were created for purposes of exploration, they were the ones who sent cubes into federation space but never assimilated anything.
Then other unimatrices for research (they researched a way into the home dimension of Species 8472 but not to beat them? what? unless of course, this unimatrix wasn't allocated many resources since it was so much faster to assimilate rather than research at this time)
Then another unimatrix for large scale projects (we've never seen the Borg build anything like the Transwarp gate before, or any other species for that matter.)
Then this queen could be from a unimatrix with the goal of understanding life rather than purely using it for their own ends. (note the structure that we see may have been 01, but the queen may have been from another one. After all they are all programs, they can easily download each other into each other's body. And all it would take for this to happen is that the potential benefit was deemed much larger by 1 unimatrix for the others to sacrifice the equivalent of 1 drone.)
The reason for this is that a single objective is far too limiting, perfection has to be achieved in a multitude of ways, requiring many different processes. The Borg would have to be stupid to not see some advantages of individuality. And so I would say that they used this to their own benefit. The unimatrices are all semi independent, where they each have their own directives and "mind" per se, but still share all their knowledge among each other since they are still one mind.
Also, it would help against successful attacks against any single unimatrix, say... Unimatrix 01 gets destroyed because of some silly virus or something. The other unimatrices could get together and rebuild it since they still have the code for the original unimatrix. So it would actually be about as simple as rebuilding the station.
What does everyone think about this idea?
This would make up a lot of the inconsistencies, it;s a shame a single line of dialouge was not put into voyager for this, so im going with bad writing.
That would probably help. It would also vindicate Picard for not massacring the Borg when he had the chance. Any cyber organism would know about viruses and the threats those might pose, so it would behoove them to come up with defenses against that.
@@MigrantThought Making the Borg a paper tiger is a better example of bad writing.
The Borg are basically a computer network but any network would need an admin as when one or more processes conflict someone needs to resolve the issue. so the Queen unit/program would be equivalent to an admin and given that Borg signals can't reach any point anywhere (otherwise they wouldn't need to make a beacon in first contact) one could assume that there is a queen unit at each major network hub and that the queen is a "program" responsible for system stability. the main computer in a botnet so to speak.
Also as signals in trek aren't instantaneous over large distances the queen might be a tool to ensure that the other hubs wont be limited by the need to synchronize with other hubs before a consensus can be achieved there by removing a massive weak point in the Borg defenses. i would believe that the queens if there are multiple would all have the same agenda or goal and most likely be the queens need to re-sync periodical and share critical information where as most Borg just operate within their respective unimatrix without the need to know what is happening in other areas than the one the unit is i.
This should be made canon
The bio-dampening fields would explain how the Queen and her drones transported onto the Enterprise E undetected in First Contact. I had not realized that before. Huh. I have my own theory about the Queen and her relationship with the Borg. Imperfect. The Queen's role is necessary... but she herself, the Borg, and the union between the two is semi-autonomous and imperfect. I think that Locutus and 7-of-9 were potential replacements for a flawed Queen. Just my own theory.
Huh, I hadn't thought of it her that way. It would make since on a larger scale.
Are you seriously implying that Patrick Stewart is less attractive than Jeri Ryan? The sacrilege...
I'm a very straight man and I would French kiss Patrick Stewart if given the chance
Lore Reload just made that implication because he had never seen Patrick Stewart in a skin tight body suit. lol
Patrick Stewart doesn't have tits.
Jk. In all seriousness he is a handsome man.
@@sharkdentures3247 Hmmm... So this is how the new Picard show will be different...
Look how hot this is
th-cam.com/video/B7BKxPngHKM/w-d-xo.html
Lucky Conan ;)
I loved the explanation for why voyage could take on the Borg. I can't believe that nobody else has brought up the 29th century borg's modifications, it literally fixes voyager's op issue
Voyager was no match for the Borg. Yes, I believe the future Borg upgraded the ship. Voyager needed special shielding near the end to take on the Borg. I think the Borg were unfamiliar with the intrepid class because it was new and as soonas it was lauched they were threw into the delta quadrant. I don't think species 8472 wanted to destroy everyone in our space. They were attacked first and like you said the sudden appearance of voyager at the damaged Borg ship meant species 8472 took voyager as a threat also. Then kes started getting visions which she saw their intentions was to destroy everything. Then Janeway has the Doctor create a weapon that can kill them. She allies with the Borg. The Borg couldn't defeat them but humans illustrated that they could thus making us a bigger threat. Obviously this was all down to lack of understanding and it was fixes eventually. Yes, voyager did some odd things with the Borg but check out seven of nine. She was hot so you can't completely complain...
After the events of Drone, why didn't the Borg make capture and assimilation of the *Doctors mobile emitter* priority #1?
If they assimilated it the entire Collective would jump to _29th century tech,_ which would probably be a bigger upgrade than adding species 8472 to the family.
They could never hope to defeat a opponent who had a general tech level of 29th century Starfleet, but here was one non combat device that they could use to extrapolate the entire upgrade.
And all that was protecting it was one slightly upgraded 24th century Intrepid class ship, its as if they forgot it existed after *One* suicided.
Transwarp conduits open up right on top of them and a dozen Cubes drop in right there, instantly beaming over wall to wall Drones. If they want to be cunning wait for the away mission so the crew is distracted and the Captain and Seven are away.
Then the Collective spends a little while metamorphosising and afterwards the Borg with its 29th century ships goes on a rampage.
The Alpha and Beta quadrants are taken, the Gamma Quadrant, the Voth, then its time for a rematch against 8472. Or since they now have much better time travel technology (and through extrapolation a better understanding of paradox) they could make round one a success.
The Borg, proof of the maxim that _a person can be smart, but people as a collective are stupid._
The only possible explanation would be risk evaluation. It's a really dangerous mission in this sense: What if the emitter is destroyed?
Needed a while to get there, but it seems reasonable. "The risk is just currently not worth taking." Precisely because it is so valuable, maybe they have a long term plan of acquiring it. But they also know very well: star fleet and especially voyager preferably destroy things just to be sure. If they fail at getting it that operation was just an expensive gamble that permanently erased their chance at getting the emitter. The Borg are not know for rushed actions.
@@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece Another possibility is that, since Starfleet in the future has an entire branch dedicated to ensuring the stability of the timeline, the Borg *did* make attempts to capture it, but future Starfleet blocked their attempts to do so. It's likely just lazy writing, but it might explain their unwillingness to make an obvious attempt if they planned a few attempts and ships from the future came in to destroy their forces before an attempt could be made.
Jerri Ryan + catsuit = Quality Television
Sorry im going with patrick stewart on risa...
lol, I thought a rollercoaster-cam with blinding lens flare = "Quality Television".
@Migrant Thought What about Patrick Stewart waking up next to John de Lancie?
I agree about Jeri Ryan
theuglybiker I wouldn't set my standards that low. TBH she looked better in uniform which was not tight.
I would say locutus was nothing more than a tactical drone and was used for his knowledge. When you have mind control, why not use the best person for the job.
On a ship the helmsman was usually person who had the best familiarity with the area.
Love your channel! Just found it today and have been watching ever since. Thanks for the great food for thought!
Glad to impress :)
What if the Borg have become so big that they can no longer function efficiently as a hive mind, and have broken into smaller subgroups? They would be structured similarly to the United States, with each state governing itself and managing it's own issues, but still taking part in a single overarching government to provide a general direction for the Borg as a whole. This could explain the differences in appearance and behaviour between TNG and Voyager Borg. The queens, as there are more than one, would have functioned as processing nodes and relays between the subgroups and the whole collective, much like Congress, but do to conflicts with successfully resistant groups like the federation, and the 8472 war, the queens were repurposed into more of a leadership role, such as governor, because the Borg saw merit in a semi-hierarchical structure.
I prefer using the Internet analogy because Federalism is far too inexact. Yes, the internet is considered a singular network used to share information, but it's built out of servers in many different places transmitting signals to each other. Borg Queens are servers, transmitting information to each other and determining consensus. In BoBW, they needed to upload Federation files, so they got Picard to give them information. This is also why they needed to have a queen in First Contact. Their 21th century wifi wasn't wide enough to reach Earth, so they had to bring their own server with them.
and like the US they have become totally Dysfunctional?
Pretty good idea
I see the Collective being structured more like the internet in that it has specific servers to provide access to the collective consciousness - in the case of the internet these servers are called RAS units and are rare for example there are only 4 or 5 of them in the whole of the UK - the Queen's. When a Queen dies that section of the Borg network is cut off from the Collective network until the network reconfigures to compensate and create a new Queen.
@@AndrewJamesWilliams I considered using the internet and the terminal server system as an analogy as I think that it better suits the Borg, but I just came off watching some political videos and had government on my mind.
About the ''I'' and the ''We'', I really think that the Queen's phrasing adapts to the sentiment and impression shhe need/wants to create in the person she speaks to. It would always be We in a sens, but I see her as a specific manifestion of the will of the borg. Almost like a split personnalyty but linked with all the others. Therefore she can switch between some sort of individuallity and the collective mind. Like an over ego inside a human mind.
I enjoyed this episode and the introduction of the Queen. Firstly, it does make sense for a Queen as all the drones are working towards her grand plan. Also the Borg Probe could have shields because it's to powerful enough for a subspace field. Lastly, the idea of Locutus was to be an equal to the Queen (maybe she was getting lonely).
iv always said the borg where grooming 7 to be a queen the borg having more than 1 queen at a time would answer so many problems with the borg, oh a the button pushing is a result of the assimilation of picard. after the enterprise hacks him when assimilated they then push buttons almost like they adapted this security risk which resulted in the loss of a cube the queen also wasnt always their shes from species 215 or somethin close to that so the borg must have a pointed her
Never thought about that, but ya know that makes perfect sense.
@@tonebonebgky2 it would be the next logiical steep if we take the insect hive analogy to the next level. An just like ant super hives have 1000s of queens accross hundreds of miles of jungle so might the borg
Lore, im sorry for your loss. And your right. The world doesn’t care. But that doesn’t mean we can stop and give up. We just have to keep on moving. I hope you see this eventually.
We do not know just how deeply the Borg-Species 8472 War messed with the Borg mind-set. Prior to this, the Borg had been invincible. Defeats, such as that against the Federation, were so minuscule in the grand scheme of Perfection that it did little to shake the Collective. Even the death of the Queen during _First_ _Contact_ seemed to have little impact on the whole. But suddenly they not only are repulsed, but invaded by a species that is both capable and willing of causing massive casualties. They lost hundreds of worlds, hundreds if not thousands of ships, and millions of drones.
The Borg had never been so shaken and weakened. It always has felt to me that the Borg had actually started ramping up the assimilation process. They now _needed_ to assimilate entire races to replenish their vastly depleted ranks. Suddenly they were afraid of retaliation, because it was by this very reaction that had indeed brought the Borg to the very brink of extinction. In many ways, the Borg experienced their own version of post-9/11 PTSD.
This is why putting the Queen in First Contact was a mistake. Having the Queen the result of Locutus rather than his "counterpart", would explain every inconsistency following The Best Of Both Worlds. They even use the Cooperative in this episode. I also have also always wanted a story about the Borg progenitor species.
THANK YOU LORE!
I love the fact that you are willing to look deeper into the dialogue and own up when you have made an error (few though they are).
I have stated on multiple forums and YT vids that it was the UPGRADES, not the ship, that made it a match for the Borg post this period.
So I just wanted to shoutout and say thanks, and keep up the good breakdowns 😊👍
Also, all they needed to do (and it irks me, its so simple), is replace the Queens "I's" with "we's."
Individuality of the queen solved
I think the Queen works as being part of the Borg hivemind if you think about the fact a human (and presumably most sapient species) have not one mind but two that are each in control of half the body, and when the connection between the two is severed (either by accident or artificially as a rare medical treatment) this disconnect becomes more well pronounced but as a whole the two act as one despite being arguably two entities where one is in the driver seat and the other is sometimes able to influence things but otherwise is only controlling automatic functions. This could be the relationship that the Borg Queen has with the hivemind: part of the mind but also distinct from it, each able to think for themselves but either able to function without the other, with the Queen being the conscious while the rest of the hive is the subconscious (to use analogous but technically incorrect terminology).
And now to possibly start existential dread in anyone reading this who picked up on it, yes it is believed by doctors that there may be a second conscious mind in your brain that controls half your body and has seen everything you've ever done with your own eyes that you've never been able to communicate with or even had awareness is there. Yeah. Science is fun isn't it?
These two episodes were when I started liking what the borg were; prior, in st:tng they mostly shown either disconnected borg or a purposely tide claiming "perfection" while somehow seeking it. Locutis was a cool threat, but didn't give any real indicator of why the perfect borg would want to add imperfections to their collective.
This idea of a succession of borg queens voyager introduces made me feel like borg culture had a real purpose in assimilating new species. The borg were not perfect and they knew this, but they put a strong front out for other species and took great care in preparing for a generational upgrade to their hivemind.
After seeing this episode I came to the conclusion that the queen was like a hub terminal for the borg server, without a queen the network connections would lose their mapping. Their network is not peer to peer but master-slave, if it were peer to peer the queen could not exist and the borg would be unable to route new network connections at high speeds. That said, the pre-queen borg may have been peer-to-peer and that would explain way humanity could out-innovate the borg, a peer to peer network has trouble focussing its efforts into a singular pursuit. Meanwhile a master-slave network can adapt and change course much faster, but has trouble splitting its attention in comparison to a peer to peer network.
If the borg were actually having trouble taking the alpha quadrant, it makes sense that they would need to reconfigure their network (away from a peer to peer one) in order to keep pace with the theft of their technology and innovations coming out of such. Now, if the borg always had some kind of queen, the passing of the torch to a new better model would still be very important to such a collective, or even the replacing of a dead network node's master server. In first contact an alpha-quadrant centric queen was destroyed, perhaps Seven was meant to replace her rather than all models of queen.
Speculation aside, this arc between the queen and seven made a generational mentorship within the borg that gave me an enjoyable look into the evolutions of the borg culture during a time period in which they had assimilated (or failed to assimilate) a large enough number of new species that they were now having trouble maintaining their singular group consciousness. It made them more than a nameless faceless ameba, and while they could have made any number of personalities for the group consciousness, this one gave me a view that answered why the borg were so bad at adapting and innovating new technology when compared to the other major races. (and as a bonus showed them working on a solution to fix their lack of such)
Gotta say man I love the videos, keep it up.
I'm glad you enjoy it..
Lore Reloaded I’m looking forward to more videos, they really do lighten my day up.
To add to 'Seven is the only Borg drone to ever regain their individuality', there's also the psuedo-individuals Chakotay found and stayed with in VOY: Unity.
Great video! I really enjoy your in depth analysis and study. Lots of knowlege being pulled from multiple episodes.
One note about the Borg shields; it's possible that the inner most layers of the Borg Cubes are shielded / have shielding on them as opposed to a shipwide shield. That would make it consistent with Best of Both Worlds.
They also made the change from 'upgrading all life' and assimilating cultures and technology earlier in Voyager.
There's a line in VOY: Mortal Coil about Seven's drive for perfection (and consequently the Borg's new goals) about how the Kazon were unworthy of assimilation.
Oof. Not even worthy of being basic drone slaves.
While Neelix would've made an excellent drone due to the dense musculature of Telaxians.
I'm of the belief that the queen is able to turn her AI up or down as needed. And somewhere deep inside is an individual who is on a power trip. I've also suspected that 7 was being groomed to be queen some day before the 8472 war. It is almost a master- apprentice relationship. Just observations.
Love in-depth videos like this one. I think there are definitely problems with how the Borg behave in this episode, especially regarding the queen. However, the scene where the Borg quickly overwhelm and assimilate the other species is, in my opinion, just about the scariest the Borg have ever been.
BORG QUEEN (OC): What's wrong Locutus? Isn't this familiar?
BORG QUEEN: Organic minds are such fragile things. How could you forget me so quickly? We were very close, you and I. You can still hear our song.
PICARD: Yes, ...I remember you. You were there all the time. But that ship and all the Borg on it were destroyed.
BORG QUEEN: You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become.
I can see the Borg Queen using the singular in her speech to encompass not only her, but the entirety of the Borg itself AS a singular being, which does actually fit in with how the Borg have been established. The Queen as we see her is simply a singular mouthpiece.
This is just my head cannon. But I always thought the borg queen started out as a way to bring order to chaos like a borg CPU. But as she evolved and as the borg evolved they needed a single individual to think for the borg.
My idea is that her species is able to sift through the billions of individuals that make up the borg. That originally she acted just as a processor. But with Borg like hugh and other things that changed the borg they needed her to take a more active role in controlling the borg.
BBC America is having a Borg marathon this Monday and Tuesday. I saw a commercial for it today.
While not useful for determining in-universe lore, the issues in this episode really shine as writers just not caring and/or knowing the canon for the things that they are writing. Not just for the normal inconsistencies, but seeing the Borg acting like regular aliens, using manual controls just like any other humanoid alien, using shields like any other humanoid alien ship, ...
And the compassion is what I think she really wanted from seven. It's possible that the individual virus from hue did infect the collective giving them their first taste of individualism. As a result of protection, the queen probably centralized that virus on herself which explains her sometimes using "I". In an effort to either better understand individualism or to see if there was a way to include some of the positives of individualism into the collective, let seven stay. The queen showing compassion was probably a result of that virus. Whew long winded there. Thanks Lore!
I think the borg's encounter with species 8472 was much more destructive. It's possible that the borg realized they were about to be obliterated by a superior race of beings, and it forced the collective to think outside the cube. By possibly giving the queen more autonomy to make decisions on her own or their own. There isn't anything to prove or disprove multiple borg queens controlling certain amounts of ships/drones, kinda like flag officers. And because the queen has more freedom to think/do things outside of the collective mindset, this could be the reason why they are seen doing things they didn't do before. Like assimilate all lifeforms instead of one or two, the queen knows they got their collective asses handed to them and need to 're-fill the ranks' as it were.
I like this. They adapted and chose a quasi individual avatar leader(s)
Regarding the button-pushing Borg, I think it's hilarious, in the opening, when the ships open fire on each other, the Borg say something like "Regenerate primary shields, and remodulate weapons". The camera cuts to that one single Borg, which walks over to a panel, and extremely purposefully and methodically, extends one finger and pushes one button. Then the camera immediately cuts away. It's just so random.
I think it's actually where you got your screencap at 0:36.
This whole series is fucking amazing.
Every species assimilated changes the perspective of the hive mind. Ultimately, assimilation is a paradox. The more the borg learn, the more compassionate they will become.
I always assumed the Borg Queen was an adaptation after the introduction of Hugh, in TNG: "I, Borg." That the introduction of individuality caused the Borg a massive problem, and they adapted or reverted back to an earlier state to be resistant to this new change.
I honestly think the Borg episodes in Voyager would have worked better if it was Borg factions as in Queen vs Rebellion (Lore/Huge)..
Then 7of9 plot and such would have worked a lot better.
Without hindering the Borg threat any.
I 110% agree that the introduction of the Borg Queen was massively ungood, contradicting one of the most fundamental aspects of the Borg.
Good one and i love the thumbnail, is there a way to get it as a screensaver somewhere?
Dark Frontier is definitely 1 of my favourite Star Trek Voyager episodes
My gripe with DF is when the voyager crew were going over the bio-dampeners, NONE of them stopped for a second and thought "Hey, wait a minute, don't the borg already know about these things?" It's even stated later when Tuvok says "They can see us." when two drones are staring at him and Harry, Harry asks how, and Tuvok says "I don't know." neither of them realize why when it should be glaringly obvious. Hell, the Queen even said as much. Overall though, it was a good episode, and we did get to see the Diamond ship design. And if you think the Queen is an odd thing for the Collective to have, in the Mirror Universe, apparently, they have a king, and cubes in that universe are 3x bigger. 10km along each edge, apparently.
As we know the Queen was interested in recovering Seven - so sending a ship that could do it (probe) was an efficient use of resources on part of the collective (aka dont send a cube when a probe will do).
Probe could theoretically take on voyager as far as collective knew at the time - so it makes sense - go capture voyager - gain some drones and re-capture seven at the same time and get all the knowledge they gained from exploring the area as a bonus - basically a win/win for the collective from their view point.
The secondary aspect might have been just to establish a contact with seven if the capture attempt was unsuccesfull - so the Borg Queen could talk to her and coerce her into going home. I think that might have been the case since the queen only starts to talk to seven after the probe was whacked - perhaps during the attact the probe sended some signal to seven nanoprobes/implants/alcove that enabled that communication later on.
So sending a probe had basically three objectives in mind - either capture voyager, retrieve seven - or make contact with her if direct assault failed. Cheers.
I was re-watching voyager along with this series and I to questioned Species 8472 motives but there is an interesting thing that comes up during the peace talk episode. They say that they felt that all species in the universe are a threat to them like the Borg (cus of the Borg and seeing humans with them) but after they talk with Janway they are not so sure. I like to think that they just feel like invading just isn't worth they time or that now they know what tech can kill them making a counter for it is a priority and maybe in the future they can look at there options
"why why why does the queen need another avatar?"
maaaan the Queen is a woman and she wants some handsome picard on her side or a little babyseven man cut this girl some slack xD
"Your archaic cultures are authority driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a human voice will speak for us in all communications."
Key point there; HUMAN voice. The queen is not human, and the Borg realize she would never be seen as such. Even assimilated, Picard could be seen as human, but a better version of one. The version the Borg believe is better, and so by sort of showing it off, they hope to convince humanity to join them in their better version of life.
So, being the one that outmaneuvered them before, on top of his extensive diplomatic record (courtesy of the download form the first encounter), Picard was seen as the best human they knew of to bridge the gap. Further, they notice that the Federation responds to a single voice far better than the full-crew voice the Borg usually employ. An observation further proved right by the interactions Locutus has with the Enterprise (and possibly the ships at Wolf 359, however briefly).
Because of this, even after the failure of the first attack, the Borg put even more energy into making the queen a point of contact for Borg communications with the Federation, and probably other races as well. As for the duality, that might be exactly that; a duality. On one hand, you have a drone playing the part of an individual, yet she is the collective personified. When she says "I was thinking the same thing," she means the collective had reached the same conclusion, but because she's serving as an avatar for the collective, it sounds like it's just her. Mind you, yeah, it's not perfect either direction you take it.
Just my own thoughts on it.
what if she is using i as in the hold hive mind talking about the avatar? (( idk but it is a idea ))
The Queen in the Borg is used like a command unit to carry out V'ger's orders. Which technical would make a unimatrix the extension of the Queen.
In Dark Frontier the Borg is Star Trek (the franchise), those being assimilated are the contributing script & story writers. The queen is lying El Supremo but doing it all to make everyone perfect and for the good of all, as victims writhe and scream as drones edit them into the fold. She's an Executive Producer! It's all clear.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!
I too recently saw this ep
Why in the video @3:22, when you say the Borg queen contacts Seven, do you have a picture of Naomi Wildman, not Seven?
Because the queen appears in a dream as Naomi Wildman.
Lord Reloaded has been assimilated. He sounds Borg. 🤣🤣
My son wants to know . Is there any mirror vers Borg and what are they like,?
How much Lore can you get on The Hirogen. I Would have loved to see the Hirogen vs The Borg.
A Thought about the Queen and Her “Needing” Picard as Locutus. What if, The Queen had thought of Seven as her Daughter, (I think this is actually said at some point but I might be wrong) And that Locutus was her way of trying to provide a “Family” of sorts for Seven and The Queen herself if she felt lonely. In First Contact Picard points out that she wanted him to come willingly, as an Equal. She is essentially alone in a sea of subordinates. And longs for...maybe not companionship but, a Partner? And Seven would be her way of “raising” a possible new Generation of Borg Leadership. It would also help justify the Queen letting the shuttle go after Seven says “Please” Just a Thought. Great videos Lore Reloaded :)
As I recall, the previous Borg Queen said that she "was the Borg". Therefore, she Queen can speak for herself because she is the Borg.
As soon as 7 got on board, the advantage was less clear, since she knows weak points of borg vessels.
I think that the borg queen is an emotional locus for the collective giving them another point of view in order to make decisions.
A thought after watching your series. What if Hew individuality “virus” spread further then just with a Borg Cube but the whole collective. Lore was able to evangelize a group, but the rest of the Borg may have leaned to the queen as a follower. The queen herself had been effected so she was insistent on forcing the Borg to bend to her will. Where before the Queen job was to just prioritize all the activities going on. So we have Pre-Hew Borg and post Hew Borg. Where the collective moved from unity in though to the attempt to keep order in chaos.
Perhaps the Borg Queen was originally just an avatar but humanity being added to the collective has caused her to become more individual and for a more human like command structure. The 'paranoid' and the 'compassion' could also be part of that human element in the collective.
Preloaded on 2/18 and 2/19 there is going to be a borg marathon bb c amaica!
We see the Borg travel back in time in first contact, so perhaps they do that frequently enough in the delta quadrant in more controllable conditions to where their own continuity changes based on the episode. The obvious reason for doing this frequently is of course.....quantum.
I’d like to know we’re you get the idea of the subspace field I never herd any dialogue to indicate that and always figured it was shields either way it never makes sense to believe that the borg can adapt to any weapon regardless of fire power. You can’t become I’m completely immune to every type of weapon it’s just not physically possible I mean we’re is the energy supposed to go. This is why I think that species 8472’s weapons were just more powerful and you can’t adapt to weapons that out power your shields.
Maybe the Borg Queen isn't part of the collective proper. But a Borg who once by circumstances had been separated then went on to adapt Borg methods and technology for her use. While maintaining her individuality she regained when she had been separated.
The Borg,it seemed, adapted to Federation Standards. Shields, consoles, etc, when the Borg that we first saw didn't use consoles, or have shields, nor did they need them. Maybe by adapting to Human technology, the borg weakened themselves. Picard wasn't turned into Locutus in order to understand humanity, he was there to facilitate humanities assimilation. The borg worked under the misunderstanding that humans would follow one starship catpain.
In the beginning, the borg didn't assimilate individuals, they assimiliated technollogy
my take, the Borg in their rush to adapt after the looses they suffered at 8472, adapted too quickly, creating fundamental errors that would propagate and damage the collective. for instance, they queen may have an entity meant for coordination, a primary server if you will. this would be the entity we see in First contact. The Borg identified Picard as a useful asset and used him as a kind of tactical control node for their invasion of the Federation. it is possible that during the war with 8472, faced with total defeat, the Borg rapidly adapted and used the queen as a means to that end, an entity unlike other queens, capable of taking self directed action on behalf of the collective, thus, negotiating with Voyager. but this adaptation meant to win the war came with a flaw, it created a queen separate but connected. A semi-individual imposing their will on the collective for more selfish ends. But the queen is still Borg, she has never been anything but and therefor unable to think any other way. so the attempts to use Seven of Nine as a means to fill that gap.
This is why in the final episodes, Insaneway attacks not the collective as a whole, but the queen directly. disrupting her ability to control the collective and because the Borg have no time to adapt to not having this control hub, the billion voices lost in the storm of connected thoughts that is the collective start to speak without any coherent order.
The ability to adapt can be a flaw if outside forces are too quick and too contrary.
My theory to explain the Queen. Before the defeat of the Best of Both Worlds the Queen was much more like Locutus cold, very machine like, etc. Then after that defeat the Borg decided they needed a new type of Queen. They needed a Queen who could Make The Borg Great Again. She would build a whole new huge fleet, and have the Ferengi pay for it. Someone who was going to drain the Unimatrix Zero swamp.
the queen may simply use i when interacting to individuals for better communication. Also having her assimlate a indivual ship could have been a test for seven.
Well shields or not something prevented transport and in the TNG epsisode Picard is assimilated in if you remember the Borg began using a scattering field to prevent Transport function and Data had to use a shuttle to penetrate that field to retrieve Picard so this could be what they were referring to. I think yiu should rewatch the entire series and pay attention and you might catch some of this stuff
I always thought it was odd the Borg didn't use shields until they could adapt their subpace field. Why take so much damage before you can make yourself immune?
The Borg Queen's use of the term "I" does not really provide any real inconsistencies in the overall Trek universe....she (in First Contact) describes "I am the Borg" and it has been theorized that the Borg utilize multiple Queens, like separate Beehives or ant colonies, all being smaller parts to the same whole.
The Borg use of Locutus however was in TNG explained as necessary.....probably because the Federation was so vast the Borg needed something more then a standard Queen...something people (in the Federation) could relate to....maybe?
As for individualistic Borg behavior, yeah...writers got lazy and needed a plot device that looked cool on screen....or maybe one of 7"s friends from Unimatrix 0?
Meh...probably not.
I always saw it as the Borg, The Queen over exaggerated her abilities and rather than being able to read Seven's thoughts actually concluded the raid based on Janeway\Voyager attacking the probe and odd behavior.
Borg console looks like the gold record we sent up with Voyager 1. Standard greeting of science communication with two hydrogen atoms and electrons spinning down-cycle I don't know looks like that to me
I think the subspace fields, are the borgs shields
7 of 9 says resistance is futile. I say baby you will get no resistance from me.
Thirsty boi
Gold star for you sir !
Great job Lore and i believe your onto something with these theories. But if i could add my 2 cents worth i believe the queen operates on a command program separate but tied to all the rest of the borg. I also believe that the Queen's is a clone of the original developer of the cybernetics that became the borg. We see a hint of this style of A I in the 3rd installment of the terminator with the introduction of skynet. It being the master controller of all the machines. Thus making the queens a single individual yet while all the drones working as a collective. This would also alow the queens to have maintained alot of the original knowledge of humanity of the original host. This best explains her uncanny knowledge that appears somewhat out of character for the Borg as a whole.
Seven as a Borg messiah... funny seeing as in the books/comics (I think there was comics, books or something at least I know) AND the show after initial reluctance she remembrances her lost heritage and then ENTIRELY in both mediums turns on and actively works to undermine the Borg every chance she gets..
Locutus and Seven may have just been used the queen may not have been available and the borg just using local resource in the case of Picard and seven for a human that they may have believe could interact better with the human captain.
It would have been interesting if there were two distinct versions of the Borg Collective. One version was the Borg from Best of Both Worlds from TNG. They have one mind, all operate together and is the OG version of the Borg. The other could have been the Borg from Voyager that split off from the original, where they have a queen that is used as an avatar and voice/processor for that Borg Collective. They both act completely differently and has assimilated different technologies and produced different looks and drones. One integrates their drones into their ships becoming part of it and the other simply don't, instead requires a drone to operate control panels still and use shields. I would have loved to have seen something like that in Voyager, they just left Borg space and now they are entering another type of Borg space, but this one doesn't care about one single ship passing through, a few scans but mostly just leaves them be until they detect Seven of Nine that is and the other Borg tech on board. Just a crazy thought of a fan... don't mind me. :)
You may want to consider keeping the video captures from Voyager in the 4:3 aspect ratio. They look stretched and the crew have Stewie heads, lol. It can be distracting.
the Borg probe is the smallest and therefore weakest of Borg vessels. I suspect it is more a patrol ship kept in Borg space to make sure they haven't missed anything. also DO THE EPISODE WHERE THEY STEAL A TRANSWARP COIL!
Could be semantic.
A single mind would see itself as “we” and “I”.
We are one, yet we are many. 🤷🏽♀️
Almost seems simpler lol
So many years behind, but I always figured the queen, basically all iterations of her, were a result of either Locutus or Hugh.
I won't pretend to have all the details and lore points worked out, but put simply she was a way of allowing the borg to reconcile the individuality that Locutus and Hugh brought.
It's possible that what Locutus brought was planned and expected, but Hugh may have forced a more dynamic element on her formation and behaviour,. perhaps even serving as a permanent disruption to her logical functionality.
If the borg are all a collective and each being shares themselves with the borg in a way then it's possible she represents a consolidation of that individuality shared but always in the background, a siphon of sorts that serves both as a release and similar to the figurehead that Locutus represented.
While she now acts like she has existed for far longer, it's possible she is simply lying, believes it to be true when it is not or it is sort of true in that the individuality always existed. She may have made it real form, but perhaps her sense of existence and possibly even experience traces to all elements of individuality within the collective, suppressed without form at the time.
Species 8472 may also be a factor in all this, I don't know the exact timeline or if know in canon exactly when the Borg invaded fluidic space, but perhaps the utter failure of the functionality that was so deadly to the Federation forced abrupt and drastic changes in an effort to better combat a race they could barely fathom. Or perhaps a combination of everything above.
Maybe a pre Locutus or Hugh Borg would or could not have attempted dramatic adaptation strategies to combat the Undine and only did so because of the influence of individuality they could not truly expunge this time around.
The reason they used Screens and sheild's is for the plot.
Borg Fields are something Voyager could not beat. So writers switched back to shields and given a reason for them to be using out of date tech.
The use of screens looks good for viewers. So the show shows them rather then the ships sencers to see whats going on around the ship.
Borg: we are friends, lower your shields to accept our representative. (Borg bean over nanotechnology)
Borg win all battles
The reason the Enterprise-D couldn't detect Borg Drones is because the drones were PART of the ships, they weren't individuals but cogs in the machines. The reason Starfleet can detect drones later is because the writers forgot about the Borg's nature, but you could chalk it up to Starfleet figuring out how to detect drones.
I still think that the Borg Queen was created when Hugh was rejoined, the borg dumped all of their hive mind that wasn't fragmented into the queen to 'maintain order' but of course, the queen herself being an individual as a direct result to counter, wait for it, an individual returning to the collective. She's the result of "damage" to the hive mind, this also explains why the borg are so different in voyager, the Queen would be a newer thing. Also, Imagine how scary and how much more effective the Borg would be if the experience of being a drone was actually pleasurable. You'd have people lining up to be assimilated. Which also begs an off topic question of: Do you think there are people who actively try to be assimilated by the borg? Who have some sort of for lack of a better word, 'religion' about the borg? Or are some sort of Borg fanatics? (Which assimilation of these people would make the borg more full of themselves.
OOOoooo... SNAP!
One of the destiny books proposed that the Borg would be vulnerable if they weren’t EXPECTING a particular tactic even though they are aware. I may be aware of the Spanish Inquisition but I’m never expecting the Spanish Inquisition.
Love
Perhaps the queen is slowly separating her self from colective, inserting herself on the top
Did the writers intend to show why your big bad is best left unknown in the darkness and suffers when you try to establish them too much?
The Queen was letting 7 choose to be a Borg. Prepping her to be the next Borg Queen.
This is how I see it. In Ghost in the Shell, Section 9 specifically hired Togusa because of his skills, AND that he had only a minimal amount of cybernetics. His brain was fully biological and unique. The Major mentions that if everyone has cyberbrains, then all the thinking patterns tend to be similar.
Having a few individuals networked into the collective prevents this stagnation of thought. This is the purpose of the Queens, and why they seem to also have more individuality than a drone.
Could also be after-effects of Hugh. Could be the Borg are evolving to adapt to new challenges.
Could also be lazy writing.
Why you think in such three dimensional ways, if it is a collective there was no mention in First Contact that the Queen was physically present in that Cube during Best of both worlds.
If the episode had been an offshoot of the Borg or a similar species, then everybody would just complain that the Borg should just have been used because they are already established and it’s an unneeded complication to tweak the species or add a new one.
However, the queen I think is a bit of a duality, the voice of the collective, but also the head of the Borg. She is tied into the hive mind sure, but I suspect in a sense there is a type of firewall keeping her from getting overwhelmed by it as drones do. On voice, hers, one will, hers, one mind, hers. The queen herself could also just be a physical manifestation of an A.I. Either created to coordinate the Borg, or an A.I. Which is a result of the collective mind. Essentially the like the id ego superego model of the psyche, the Borg queen emerged as a moderator to keep the system in balance and to help the system understand the universe physically. The drones are The id, the Borg A.I. Though not canonical, the superego, the Borg queen emerges as a much needed ego to balance things out an make the collective function.
As for how the Borg act in this episode. The closer you get to center of power in a nation, the more differences you will see culturally and functionally. Mostly the federation saw tactical drones and scouts. They were dealing with single vessels on the periphery of Borg space. Much in the same way, you can’t look at the people on an aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean and assume that all in the carrier are a cross section of the United States and that the functioning of the carrier is how our entire system of governance and our culture must function. The Borg are united, no question, but different parts of the same system fulfill different functions. Transmissions don’t make good engines blocks in cars, but when they function together each doing what it does best, you have harmony. Unity, without uniformity.
At the same time, it’s just a tv show. And, it had such careless writing at times. Still love trek lore though.
Since the Borg Queen says she is the Borg I was fine with the “i”
I took from dark frontier, based on what the queen said to 7......... the convenient damaged Borg ship the whole thing, the sphere taking the bait etc was a set up they knew everything.... and played along.
Also I’ve always wondered wouldn’t it save ALOT of power if starfleet shields where grafted around the hull not a bubble......?????
The borg are ever changing and always purposeful. The queen's repsonses were deliberately structured using human syntax to lure/ manipulate Seven of Nine into cooperating. Just like the ship was allowed to depart to soften Seven's guard. The Borg have repeatedly failed to assimilate earth. Humans have proven to be very adept at adapting to the Borg. Any and all inconsistencies can simply be chalked up to the Borg adapting to better face humanity.
What if the "Queen" is a symptom of a fault/malfunction within the Borg that has occurred as a result of Locutus/Hugh individuality reasserting itself.
We never see the actual Queen, during the TNG era. We only see it in flashbacks in First Contact.
Could the queen be affecting an individual identity deliberately I order to manipulate the Voyager crew. She thinks of them as small so perhaps she is trying to communicate more effectively by speak like these small minded beings??
Personally, I've never really liked the "Queen" thing, but im fine with the concept that she is some kind of nexus point, that helps them store and process information - and sometimes acts as an "avatar" when the Borg need to talk to someone on a more personal basis.
I don't think Locutus was either of these things though - I don't think they chose him as a "leader", nor do I think he was going to have any additional power or even a special role in the borg. He was just another drone. But they recognised that the greatest weakness of humanity is our emotions, so by putting one of the most famous, intelligent and dedicated men in the Federation front and centre, acting as though he has "changed sides" and is now "leading the borg to defeat humanity" - they will shatter our Morale and truly make us believe resistance is futile - they're being led by Picard himself!
In reality, once the Federation had crumbled, he'd go back to being just another borg - all that stuff about become the Queen's equal was just lies to try and convince him to give himself wholly to the collective..
TLDR : I think Locutus was Vichy France.
I'm very grateful that you didn't overly rip voyager a new arse hole here lore. Iv kind come to think two things about the Borg and their avatars for lack of a better term kind of like the Zerg and their leaders. Where their both collective but have some degree of personality. Or the queen offers the collective deration that it's her that keeps them from just gray gooing everything thuse stagnanting once they run out of races to consume and prevents blue screens of death. Like the hego virus from wracking shit. But she has some degree of sway and personality