Exactly they know what they're doing to people, they make a complicated in processing so the idea of leaving that car company will feel like a technical divorce.
I will run as far as possible from any car manufacturers that implement these sorts of business practices and I hope an underground economy for cracking and bypassing these subscription fees eats the companies that do. You buy the car, it's yours so you should control the features it's equipped with.
It's a great idea! Because some 13 year old will figure out how to reprogram the cars computer with an OBD plug... And sell a kit for 150 bucks that unlocks everything. ...and then the car companies wont make jack, yet will have supplied all the parts.
They already HAVE hackers. There was a you tube video that proved its possible to hack someone else's car while they are driving and fuck with things like the radio and the power steering pump and anti lock breaks and cruise control................ Its thought by the conspiracy theorists out there that this is how they killed that one reporter that had dirt on Hillery C...............
@@HighmageDerin seen that video. Guy was driving around and the "hacker" just turned something off or did something funny. Freaky and to why i like my 82 c30.
I absolutely believe that car manufacturers are greedy enough to implement such a strategy. But being a person of 60 years old, I will never ever pay for such a thing. "It's the principle". I'd rather drive an older car that provides me autonomy over my property.
Those type of car will be phased out by restricting manufacture of parts to keep them going. They are already going after shops on YT for making modifications.
That’s why I still own my Dad’s 1975 Chrysler imperial. I had to have the engine rebuilt and when I did the mechanic put a new heads in order to use unleaded fuel.
I love how my 25-year-old car has ZERO network connectivity. There are far fewer things that can go wrong between bad software and anti-consumer "features."
Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, as the old(er than me lol!) saying goes. Who's to say that the manufacturers will make the service info needed to do even minor things, let alone major ones, available to any shop that's not a dealership? John Deere and others are already known not doing it.
To build brand loyalty with me is to make a device that I can use without needing subscriptions for basic functionality. Heated seats, automatic high beams, etc. should be included in the initial price and not be a subscription service. I dislike having too many subscriptions particularly for something I need to use regularly. The product does not matter; it can be a car, software, or many IoT devices the more I need subscription to use it the less I want to use it.
Make it work right, make it work well, make it work a long, long time, I'm loyal. Heck, I might be loyal if I get 2/3 of that list, especially if the design is visually pleasing. Make it work but only if I'm getting my bank card charged monthly, then I'm loyal to anyone but that company.
I guarantee that charging me subscription fees for common-sense things in/on my own car will not create brand loyalty on my part. It will do the opposite.
This line blows me away: "This approach can also allow carmakers to streamline manufacturing by building cars to more uniform specifications, Mark Wakefield, who runs the automotive and industrial practice at the consulting firm AlixPartners, told Insider. Down the line, owners can add on the features they want à la carte." Do they actually expect me to believe that car manufacturers are going to spend the extra money to put in all of the disabled features and NOT pass that cost onto the customers who DON'T opt to enable the features? Are they going to reduce the profit they make on each car sold with no features in the hopes of making up the difference from the suckers who get the features? I don't believe that for a second.
That's my big concern. I don't want to pay hundred of dollars for options I don't want but have to buy because the manufacturers hope that I or a future owner will pay a monthly fee to use them.
To be fair, farm tractor manufacturers already do this. They started standardized 4x4 and a few options. You just get a programed lower HP rating that a Tune can bump it up. Buying the lower version and getting bootleg tumer in turn makes the lower tractor equivalent to the larger brother but cheaper in cost because of the model number. It's stupid. If you do find the equivalent non 4x4 model, expect it to be within a couple grand of the 4x4 version. Basically screwing over the consumer...
I for one, look forward to hearing about the first lawsuit where someone hacks their heated seats to work without paying....and see what the car company has to say about pirating your own property. :)
Have they ever sued their customers for custom wheels, custom radio, aftermarket exhaust, tuners or anything else you put on it after you buy it? How would replacing the computer differ from an engine tuner? I say they piss a lot of people off then lose in court.
Actually, that's a simple one: if you hack the software/firmware to get the seats to work, you're in trouble. If you wire in a switch to put juice directly to the heaters, you're OK.
Apple's found a solution, it's called serialized parts. So if you get a new screen from another company, the phone sees an invalid part for the phone's screen, and the phone won't start. So imagine the same with your heated seats. Or say the heated seats broke, and suddenly you can't drive home. Because the seats are broken. Then see that the same has already happened for farming equipment. and medical equipment. For instance, if you want to replace a motor on certain medical beds that move it up and down, you have to replace the entire bed. A $200 part replacement turns into a $10,000 replacement.
As a hardware and software engineer I will gladly help design and build devices to by pass such subscriptions to allow using equipment already included within your original purchased
I'm using the Arduino MKR CAN but I'm looking into the PIO of the RP2040 as a cheaper replacement. If that can't be done I'll try a ESP32 with an MCP2515. The only real challenge is harvesting the signals and sorting out what is what. It took me about a week to develop a process and understand the data from my Mini Cooper. I can probably do the same on any car in a day.
You joked about it, Steve, but I'm convinced that in their most fevered fantasies the automakers would love to charge a subscription fee for car owners to be allowed to actually drive their cars.
remember - they only make money on these schemes if you buy their products. if the take rate on these subscription-based options is low enough, they won't do it. vote with your wallets!
Here in Britain, there's already a business in GPS 'jammers' which fool the in-car systems regarding where you are and speed. This is because insurance companies make installing trackers a condition of insurance for some people and void the insurance if the GPS shows you've been speeding etc.
I, personally, can do the same thing about this that I did with cable tv, satellite radio, and all of the subscription services for music. That is, I don't participate. Never had cable tv, never paid for satellite radio, put up with ads in music subscription services. I'm golden. I avoid monthly fees at all costs, unless something is truly useful for me and fits with my lifestyle. So for folks like me what I see happening here is all cars will come with all options installed, but you've got to pay a subscription service to actually use them. Not a problem. There are very few options I really care about. One exception might be electric windows. But I doubt they're going to put a hand crank in for those of us who refuse to pay the monthly fee.🤣 By the way, I noticed just yesterday that TH-cam now has upped "1 of 2" ads to "1 of 3". I just do the same thing I've been doing for months: if I'm given the option to skip the ads after 5 seconds I hang out and then skip the ads. If I'm not given the option I simply go out of the video close it and go back in. I may have to do this three times. But eventually what happens is I go straight to the ad or it starts out with only one 5 second ad. Sure that might be time consuming sometimes, but at least I'm doing something and not sitting around watching a worthless ad.
Dude just download an adblocker, youre still giving them clicks. But on topic the main issue I see with these subscriptions is that I really don't like being forced to pay recurring fees for something already included in the price of the vehicle. It's like when a game downloads DLC to your drive or includes it on the disk, but youre forced to pay more to access it. It's not right and consumers shouldn't put up with those practices. Like Steve said, if it's novel features that make sense to be subscription based, like special GPS software, autopilot, etc. then it isnt so bad, but knowing I paid to have heating elements in my seat that can only be activated if I pay more for someone to remotely activate them, that feels so bad.
Hardware based optional features make sense to have a one time fee to initiate. Once initiated it should follow the car to the next owner. Software based optional services that require access to a server provided by someone else makes sense that a monthly or annual fee be assessed for that service. Those fees, however should only go to the service provider. E.g. if you are using satellite radio you sould be paying the satellite radio company and not the car manufacturer.
@@TheVerendus FWIW, I use the AVAST browser so I don't have a problem with ads on my desktop. It's the cell phone where I have the problem. I'm very niggardly about what I'll install on my phone. On a related note, I've never paid a cent for software for any smart phone I've ever owned except one time: I paid five bucks for Winamp, because I'd been using it for years for free and it was very valuable to me - and then they went out of business. BTW, I'd have no problem with them installing all these options and thane requiring a ONE TIME fee to unlock them.
Ben grabbing a coffee! If it happens we all just stop buying new cars. Personally I hate taking a 20% loss when it hits the street. My question, how long til they can hack or rechip the car so it all works sans the manufacturer subscription? Customers need to make it clear from now that we are not willing to pay for any subscription based services.
If you own the car, what's to stop you form modifying things yourself or paying someone to do it? The controller for the heated seats is likely to be very easy to remove and replace and make use of the in-seat heating elements. Same for the in-dash stuff. I'd be willing to bet that there would be a ton of third-party aftermarket solutions that don't require a subscription. It may not work for some of the most advanced features like "autopilot" type modes. But it will certainly work for things like heated seats, remote start, entertainment options. Or in order to buy the car are they going to make you sign a legally-binding contract not to do so? But then, if you sell the car, the second owner won't be restricted from making such changes. This is not likely to go well for the manufacturers.
Actually, I look forward to opening a business where we provide a module that gives you Total Control of your vehicle and disables their network access... 😅👍
If they disallow you from modifying it, it my be a monopoly you could fight against. "Your car already has remote start. We can't/not allowed to add another one." This is along the same lines as MSwindows back in the day forcing us to use IE.
you won't be able to do this with cars that have a leasing contract. also it may void warranties and make resale harder as the car has been tampere with. also they likely find a way to have this all integrated into the car electronics and then hacking it will be much harder and may impact safety features like airbag controllers and such.
The same thing that’s keeping small auto shops from efficiently fixing new cars. Everything is so locked down that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to pull diagnostic data or reprogram that one module for the code to go away. The agriculture industry let John Deere get away it and now are fighting to get some sort of control back. The same is already happening in the automotive industry. OBDII only gets you so far, and with an “always connected” infotainment system, what’s to keep them from disabling all “optional” features if it detects you don’t have a subscription?
Something I just thought of...If you're paying a monthly fee for heated seats and they fail out of warranty, what happens? You're essentially renting the heated seats, shouldn't they fix them?
Exactly what I was thinking. How long until cottage industries pop up that build switches that turn these on without the subscription, especially heated seats.
Im sure as soon as someone makes a workaround, car companies will pay politicians to make doing so illegal. Maybe even shut the cars off remotely if a work around is detected.
@@damham5689 The best they could do there would be to do some sort of encryption like Apple has with their touch screens an then try to file DMCA claims against anyone that breaks the encryption... at which point I say let them because we would actually be able to get DMCA fixed from dumbshit like that once some politician is forced to sit on a cold leather seat.
I love you channel, Steve. I worked in manufacturing for a bit or so. Yes, there is a huge benefit for manufacturing products - and selling products - with all that stuff built in and then simply turning it on or off electronically. A wierd example: Did you ever walk down the cereal isle in a grocery store? There are so many options/ choices that customers just walk away becuase of the customer fatigue the product complexity causes... "Ugh!. All I wanted was a stupid box of cereal!!" Also, most customers want to buy a car and not fret over regrets - "Should I have bought the heated seats? Will I ever use lane keep assist? Does it really work? Will I ever use a remote start from my phone?". This approach can reduce the customer's purchasing fatigue. Oh, I'm with everyone else, I would NEVER use a subscription service, and will stomp my key FOB into the dirt if it didn't start the car remotely. Good stuff, sir.
It's passing strange that carmakers, while pretending to be "green", think that putting features in vehicles (heated seats as one example) that won't be used unless the car owner pays a subscription fee isn't a huge waste of resources. Heating elements, wires, computer modules and such needed to heat seats add up to a lot of potentially wasted and unused material built in to each car in the hopes of a subscription windfall. Sheer hypocrisy as I can't believe that that the materials used for these features will ever be truly recoverable when the vehicle is "recycled", never mind the energy cost required to build them in in the first place. Big auto has obviously looked around and seen the dollar signs. Cable companies' bundling practices, banks' transaction fee models, and firms like Apple and John Deere who are fighting tooth and nail to prevent their customers from repairing products they own. It's a dystopian future for all of us who will soon only rent the products we buy. Coming soon, the latest range of connected refrigerators that will allow you to open the door five times a day for free, but if you need to get to your food any more than that you'd better subscribe. Corporate greed is using tech to turn us all into hostages and serfs.
I can see it now people buying rolls of tape to lock that refrigerators door button in the door closed position followed by the companies adding a the door must opened at least x times a day or they assume you "hacked" it and lock you out of the refrigerator.
It ultimately saves them money to make 1 car that has everything vs 4 classes for example of the same vehicle. Thats why it makes sense for them financially. The cost of including the heating element is cheaper than having separate lines and more employees. Just don't buy into is the best solution for it to go away.
All the costs involved in creating and installing these products were included in the initial price of the product. n But usage of those products are billable services. .... This will happen, like it or not. Control of these products can also be turned on or off depending upon your social views or 'failure to comply'.... This is a part of the coming Socialism in government control. All things can be used for good or bad. But there will always be those in power who will decide control is better than free will of the citizenry. ...... Take a guess at where feminism will take this.....And this is just a sample of where all those other socialist entities will push this. .... There will be incentives to never engage with anyone else in anyway that can put their control in your life. .... No friendships, no marriage, no memberships, ,,,, You will not even want any bonding with anyone you meet for fear of restitutions.
As for the cable companies' bundling, a lot of that comes from the networks. e.g. Want Disney Channel? Here, have ESPN, as well. Cutting the cord and moving to streaming isn't as a-la-carte as you would think. Want CBS but despise MTV? Goo luck on that one.
The only terms under which I will even CONSIDER paying a subscription for such features is if: 1. There is no up-front cost for the feature. I'm not paying for the hardware and paying a subscription for using it. 2. They cover ALL repairs on the equipment, as long as there is a subscription. 3. The feature, by it’s very nature, requires ongoing work/services by the company or a third party. This doesn’t mean it’s ok simply because the manufacturer implemented it in a means that requires some external validation, it must be inherent by the nature of the feature itself. Heated seats are a great example. There is no reason those require any external validation. I would never subscribe to heated seats. I would never subscribe to remote door lock/unlock or remote start. If the remote features offer some useful benefit via a cellular connection, I MIGHT be willing to subscribe to cellular data for the vehicle, but that would depend entirely on the value of the features vs the costs.
come on dude the NPR thing was a weird glitch that even the radio station was trying to help fix good god y'all people just look at the fucking headlines of shit and then freak out its pathetic
I purchased a 21 F150 and it came with a modem for WiFi. I pay $25 a month for unlimited data. Also the navigation has a yearly subscription if you want up to date in real time traffic reports. So it is already an established practice by the auto makers to have certain options come with the vehicle and only gaining access after a subscription is paid.
The thing about that is that there is an actual ongoing cost to the manufacturer for those things. If you pay $25 per month to Ford for unlimited data, then Ford has to turn around and buy that bandwidth from Verizon or some other cell carrier to service your contract. Likewise, the company that handles the navigation has ongoing expenses in updating maps and updating traffic reports. If we think about the idea of buying a subscription for heated seats... once those seats are installed in the vehicle, the manufacturer has ZERO ongoing cost. Any subscription fee they charge for heated seats is going to be 100% profit for them.
Well … for the last 56 years I have been driving without most of these options/features. For whatever time I have left driving … I can do without them. I sure won’t be nickelled and dimed to “unlock” any of these features.
Amazing how they think you will pay a subscription price for anything you buy and begins to depreciate as soon as you buy it. 3rd party modifications will be a new industry to remove subscription equipment and replace it with self-owned “heating seats” etc.
Yep. As soon as any major car company tries to implement this garbage they'll be up against an entire global industry of people trying to make money off of ways to bypass it.
@@Strideo1 if it will void any kind of warranty most people will not do it...because someone on social media will say it will void the warranty. Example...today gm has a feature called AFM/DOD where it turns a V8 engine into a 4 Cylinder when coasting to supposedly save fuel and emissions....There are ways to turn this off in the computer so the vehicle stays in V8 mode all the time....this does not void your warranty yet people will not do this because they think or read somewhere that it will void your warranty.... BTW...you are less likely to have engine failure because you kept the engine in V8 mode than if you let it switch between V8 and V4 mode....
@@walterwhite2270 What are they gonna do? Void the warranty on the heated seats that I effectively wouldn't have anyways without paying the subscription fee?
Folks remember Steve keeps up to date on the automotive manufacturing industry. I'm confident he has network contacts with others who working in this industry. Consumer protection for automotive industry is his bread and butter from his practice.
Even easier you can just unplug the thing that is a subscription in question. (Such as the heating element) and then just hot wire in your own switch. Bob’s your uncle, you got free heated seats. And it doesn’t have to be a hack job either I guarantee a pirate aftermarket will emerge to make it even easier
I just love how so many of the people who insist that you're "wrong" (on this, on the $100 bill thing, etc) have clearly never bothered with an obscure site called "Google" that could confirm or deny their suspicions... As for the car makers - We know damn well they're gonna do whatever they can to maximize the base price of these cars, as always, rather than offering a lower-priced model that lacks even the capability to use these subscription features. Two default packages (one for "all," one for "none) are still simpler for them to deal with than half a dozen different configurations.
Everything is going to be a subscription before long. We will eventually own nothing. We will just be renters. It started with music, then TV and movies, then computer software, and will expand where ever it can because it provides a regular recurring cash flow over something you could just buy and own outright in the past. One side effect is it becomes harder and harder to live a disconnected life because none of your stuff will work without an internet connection which don't even exist in some parts of the U.S. let alone if you just don't feel like having everything you do tracked.
It's called "The Great Reset", where the general population will own nothing, and be happy. This COVID 19 plandemic is the start of this type of "New World Order"
@@Rock-Bottem1982 That's just conspiracy nonsense. The subscription model is just the natural outcome of greedy companies being introduced to these new technical capabilities and business models. Why do some people think every new trend must be the result of some shadowy group of powerful individuals? I guess some people just want the world to be simple for them with simple causes and effects they can blame things on.
@@Strideo1 and? Just because you labeled me as a Conspiracy Theorists, doesn't mean I'm wrong, or crazy. I just see past the mainstream media bullshit, unlike you
"Your Honor, my brakes were sufficient to avoid the child chasing her wayward ball. My subscription braking system ramped up the pay-as-you-go real-time fee for using the brakes due to the value of not hitting the child. Unfortunately, I didn't have sufficient funds in my account, so the brakes weren't activated and I hit the child."
The car has no need to tell if that thing in the way is a cardbord box, a dog, or a child. For the software either is "a thing in the way". The goal is: "Do not hit things in the way."
@@brandoncaldwell95 That would be driving with a car that is not save for traffic. In the best case that is a warning and a order that you can not drive it further until it is repaired. At worst, it is a deadly crash where you have no coverage by insurance. So as a general advise: Don't.
There’s a huge difference between assisted cruise and heated surfaces… they also have to remember that many of us buy a car based on monthly expenditure… so that monthly number still has to be below some number.
I look forward to an open source software project to unlock all car features. And luckily for us (but not so great for farmers) John Deere's antics in trying to get farmers jailed under the DMCA for trying to repair their tractors have ironed out a lot of the legal questions involved. Hopefully the car industry won't go back to the old model until after we get a few great models of cars we can mod!
@@walterwhite2270 If they do this it's going to get to a point where it will be common to see people yanking out the manufacturer computer hardware and replacing it with aftermarket parts.
@@walterwhite2270 As Lord Sheogorath said replacement of hardware, or bypassing specific hardware modules is an option. (And it's much easier in a car than a phone.) But even without that most manufacturers include some obscure method of flashing unencrypted software and or firmware in case something goes really wrong. Using it won't allow you to watch Netflix, run a banking app, or play Pokemon go, but I hope those aren't popular activities while driving anyway. I haven't been very active in all of that for a while because some manufacturers now make mod friendly devices, but it used to take between a couple of months and a couple of years to find a workaround for a new system.
This is already a thing with factory remote start systems. On my Hyundai Sonata Sport, it comes with heated mirrors and seats. You can manually control the seats but not the mirrors. The mirrors are automatically controlled. They later disabled the heated mirrors in software, (via update to the remote start system) AFTER I had already purchased the car. Apparently they decided ex post facto that heated mirrors would be a Limited trim feature. Of course I bypassed this, but I shouldn't have to.
I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as the price for what would be an extra cost option today isn't added to the M.S.R.P. of the vehicle UNLESS/UNTIL the option(s) are activated. The only option I've ever used that you mentioned is the cruise control but, it's not adaptive c/c as mentioned (and I wouldn't want it to be). A tilt wheel, a/c, cruise control and a plain, simple stereo is all that I want. Power windows and locks are nice sometimes but I've lived without them and all the other garbage for years. I have no need or want for anything else as long as I get where I need to go and back.
This makes me totally appreciate my 1999 Toyota Sienna with over 330k miles. I can just visual someone hacking into these "smart app" vehicles and holding them for ransom!! Until you pay the bucks the vehicle is useless!
Yup. I always fear someone is going to hack tesla and brick all of them. Or even worse, start crashing them. Now all the auto makers are going to have this vulnerability. I don't like centrally managed things unless they are my things that i am centrally managing.
I hear ya on the TV cable/ satellite scam, we dumped them years ago, we only have phone and internet. I hooked the Google Chromebox up to the TV. We still get local channels, but have NEVER missed watching TV, I can catch most things on TH-cam (Netflix, and Disney Plus; my family watches these).
Steve, every since I heard of this. I’ve decided to make sure I never get a car that has those subscriptions. I can understand Xm radio, but this is ridiculous.
As someone that generally buys a slightly used car and drives it until it's ready for the scrap heap, I can see a whole lot of negative response to their attempt to have pay for use systems. Anyone that keeps a vehicle for more than - oh - say 3 years (if they understand basic math) will see that they are going to pay several hundreds if not thousands for these features over the course of those years, so the "great deal" they got on their vehicle just went out the window.
The Aftermarket equipment market is already there trying to milk money for essential basics such as heated seats or central locking will push more people for using aftermarket equipment.
hardware hacks can work too, heated seat with a modded on off switch, negate the need for software and do a hardware mod, there is even a few workable homemade wireless relay switches for key-less start you can do, heated steering wheel, same mod you did on the seats do it onto the wheel as well, just find the corresponding wires that turn on the induction elements and boom, you got yourself free hand warmers and free butt warmers for the cold weather travels.
Oh yeah I've seen this coming probably about five six years ago and boat companies started this like Seawind. i agree with you 100%, I'm not one of those guys that don't believe you otherwise I won't be watching you. You don't need any information for from anybody you're great we love you keep up the good work
13:40 Steve: "If they came up with a way to get the car to charge itself over the air, in other words your car's dead by the side of the road but you could press a button to put more electricity in your car.." (i.e. electric power sent wirelessly though the air) "...people would pay for that." Nikola Tesla: "Now THAT would be a car worthy of my name!"
Surely in this case the manufacturer is holding back a reserve of charge that is unlocked once you pay up. For the politicians out there; how much more money would be in circulation if we weren't being ripped off ALL the time?
I have a 2019 Genesis G70. My warranty ends in September 2022. At that time I will have to pay a $100 +- annual fee for a number of advanced features that I have to continue working. I don't remember what the list is, but it includes my remote start function as well as the road assistance function and possibly my GPS. I was not told when I purchased the vehicle and am not happy about it- of course. I would say that "I will never purchase a Hyundai product again, but I suppose by the time I need my next car, they all will have it...
How will this affect the value of the vehicle especially on the used market? Will insurance companies reimburse you for subscription features if your car is totaled?
I doubt it for example if you paid a subscription for the radio service before a crash most insurance will not if your lucky you might get a partial refund explaning to the radio subscription place that the radio was destroyed in the crash.
They'll make me build brand loyalty with the brands that hold out the longest… after that, they will just get me to do everything in my power to bypass that trash.
In Car Talk I read an article that stated the subscription costs of a new car could end up adding up to more than the car payments. By the way, I would never have heated seats. I can heat my seats just fine.
When I first for some of these ideas coming to light. I thought to myself maybe that makes sense but how do I own my vehicle then? If I'm in possession of it and that's 9/10 of the law. How can a manufacturer say that I can or cannot use some of the features built into it? It's like Tesla who puts 90 kilowatt batteries in a vehicle but only sells it as a 60 KW vehicle. I hate regulation but at some point there just needs to be a lot of states if you sell something to somebody that individual gets complete ownership of everything that is encapsulated into that physical item. What's to stop somebody from getting a vehicle that has a subscription seat heater from cutting the wires and hooking them up to their own switch?
That's how it will work maybe hacking software that takes complete control of your computer so you can make it do anything you want with out the car company consent
Or they route the starter through the proprietary switch to the seats so it has to get and confirm switch code before the engine will start... something goofy. Or they will completely void your warranty if you make changes.
I recall a person that I knew who bought a C-PAP machine. It was hers, except for some little component inside it which the company that sold it retained ownership of. That required a monthly charge. A big pain and a cost that someone on a fixed income didn't need..
@@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76 And the army of million dollar lawyers employed by the auto makers will sue you for IP violations since they will claim you are bypassing security features of the car's software.
Usually you need to drive at least a mile for the tire light to reset, it needs to rotate to verify wheel speed with other wheels through ABS wheel speed sensors. It's a check on the tire sensor to verify it's functioning correctly. A flat tire wheel has smaller diameter.
My heated seats cost me atleast a hundred bucks a month. Well, that's what the wife charges me for sitting on my side of the car for a few minutes. Seems fair to me. :o)
I got a 2020 Chev Colorado WT 4X4 for a daily driver. It didn't come with any of the OnStar, WiFi, or connectivity stuff when I bought it and the dealership was trying to convince me to have it installed, even so far as to offer discounts later on as I kept saying no. I'm perfectly fine having, probably, one of the not smartest, of the trucks on the road these days lol.
This is pretty much extortion. Could you imagine buying a product, and then that product not working, and when you complain they respond “oh, you have to pay a SUBSCRIPTION fee to use it.” Absolutely insane.
When it comes down to car rental leasing and Paying off bank loans I think this is an awesome idea as long as it stops once you own it. Having a hand in here when it comes down to a company's fleet vehicles, This kind of negotiation is beneficial in both parties. It has its place it just needs to have a set line of where it stops.
This reminds me of the story about Intel and their 486 line of CPUs. They offered the 486DX and the 486SX. They were the same circuitry, except the SX lacked the ability to use the built-in math co-processor. They did this by designing the chip in a way that, when you ran a current through a built-in fuse on the chip at the factory, it burned out the connection to the math co-processor. So they deliberately sabotaged a certain number of their DX chips to create a separate price point for customers. Kind of brilliant in a way, but also a little messed up.
And AMD had a Sempron with 4 CPU cores, but only gave you 2. I bought it for $50. Then I turned on the other 2 cores on my motherboard and overclocked it to match the performance of a $450 CPU.
@@prman9984 I remember AMD doing that. I also remember success on re-enabling the cores depended on why they had been disabled in the first place. If it was for the price point, fare and well. If it was a bad core, not so good.
I see major push back for any ongoing fee other than ongoing services like cell phone links that let you get data (assuming that the app actually works) like maintenance items or cell phone calling. Many products that have more advanced versions have features of the more advanced versions but require a minor change to add the feature. In cars, some have harnesses for extra options that only require that the option part be added. I can see a popular but failed attempt to use the embedded option (like heated seats or advanced dash displays) as a ONETIME fee. I think that people will be more amenable to that than a monthly fee. But, as you indicated, some hackers will find the way to send the codes to turn them on. It also would bring up the question of can a buyer of a used car add the option?
1:58 At car dealership: _"Your car has heating elements, do you want to be able to use it for extra $25.00"_ _"Well, Honda next door offers heated car seat included for free in price, so tell me what are you going to offer me for me to stay here and not go to them"_
Is there any point in brand loyalty? I mean if brand-A tries to keep its customers and convince B-brand-customers to come over, but brand-B does the exact same thing, then neither will benefit. If you want to compete, just make a better product, or offer the a product of the same quality at a lower price.
I am already uncomfortable knowing that my phone can be used by government agencies to follow my movements. The idea that vehicle options can be turned on and off based on a subscription services mode controlled by multinational tech corporations is another layer of uncomfortable connectivity that creeps me out.
there are some software based features where this could make sense (like automatic street map updates and weather/traffic info on the nav system). When it comes to activating hardware features that are simply switched on i guess most customers will be pissed. unfortunately there will be many customers who don't care and simply pay. this then makes these fees "normal" and everybody will have to pay. especially when it's deals like first three years free or included with the monthly leasing fees. The only hope is that the competition between car companies is fierce enough so that customers get a choice.
This is going to make me a fortune. I've been building a "glass dashboard" for my mini cooper by intercepting the can-bus communications and displaying the output on a tablet. Since all of this will be enabled by such a device I'll just get the codes and send them myself. I'll gladly package up my solution for anyone that wants to buy it.
Do note that currently they are not required to expose this information to the CAN-BUS. They probably do, out of cost/laziness if nothing else, but it's only a matter of time until they don't should they realize they don't have to use the main bus instead of using a proprietary secondary bus protocol.
There is a company out of FL that sells subscriptions to cars. Not to features but to real cars. It's similar to a lease but you can swap cars every few months if you so choose. I was a shareholder of them, but have since sold my shares, because I needed to redeploy the capital elsewhere
What happens when time marches on and these car companies either don't want to or are unable to continue supporting these platforms online? Your car will lose use of its features.
If that happens I'd hope the car companies would get sued and the courts would tell them they have to support the systems they made until the last user stops using it or they permanently unlock all features.
@@Strideo1 another thing that seems silly to me is the build cost. To install the physical equipment in every car (ie. Heated seats, heated steering wheel, remote start) will add quite a bit to the average build cost of a car. The cost of this equipment was initially offset by the consumer checking the box for said item and paying for it on the invoice. I don't see these companies eating the cost of this equipment, so I am sure they will raise the cost of EVERY car and then charge the monthly fee if you have the audacity to expect to use the equipment already on your car.
@@chadbloomfield3510 Yeah, I can't help but feel people will be paying the cost of this unused equipment one way or another even if at least in part through overall higher vehicle costs. I'm sure the manufacturers will try to disguise it as the usual inflation of goods or something.
I had that happen with a cloud storage drive from a very well known brand, that had years worth of data on it. It suddenly turned into a very expensive paper weight. (Until I ripped the guts out and built my own version from the parts and a Raspberry PI.
Just curious about the break even point for putting subscribable features in every car. I would forego heated seats and remote start if they were subscription.
Folks who deny this is happening or bump out their chest and say "We'll sue" are oblivious to the fact that this has already happened in the world of software and it will happen with cars also. When I first entered the computer software and accessory market in the mid-80s, we purchased our software and felt we owned what we thought we purchased, despite the language in the software license agreements. If you paid $99 for a software "license", you could use that software forever and choose whether or not to buy upgrades later. Then the software industry became aware of the desire for consumers to pay a minimal fee upfront to get what they wanted now. They were willing to pay huge fees over an extended period of time as long as they had immediate gratification now, for very little down. That $99 software program could be bought (licensed) for only $39 now and then $39 every year, for as long as you wanted to use it. Over a 10-year period that $99 software program netted the developer a wapping $990 in revenue and they were able to increase the annual subscription cost at any time. Then, if the consumer balked at the cost and cancelled their subscription, they lost access to their online data so they re-subscribed again to ransom out "their" data. Yes, you the car buyer will still own your seat heater but it won't work without the integrated software that is only accessible through an annual subscription.
I use Rhino 5 to do my CGI projects, in part because I was able to buy it as a perpetual license. I don't care if it's not cutting edge, it works fine for my purposes. I also have a copy of Photoshop CS3 on one of my old computers because it was the last one I could buy from Adobe outright, before they slammed down that cloud-only edict.
Hewlett Packard did this with a color laser printer I owned. It had the mechanics be a stand alone, networked and/or a duplex printer. Originally offered at three prices, pay more get more, they enabled the features with software. I don't think you could upgrade after purchase. It is a hard position to justify with a straight face. You pay for the parts you just can't use them. Say wah?
The car I bought was a three year old used car that came with all the bells and whistles but I paid significantly less for it because it was used. That's the sort of thing car companies will try to make go away; people getting a great deal on a car that's in great condition but has depreciated because it's slightly used. If they implement this garbage they'll still have the potential to make money from cars like that. Although I imagine used cars will actually depreciate even faster when equiped with subscription bashed options.
Many car manufacturers in the UK are already offering fees for example BMW internet free when new but when the car gets older there is a charge. Audi also have a similar system. To upgrade maps in Mercedes again there is a charge. However with Apple CarPlay or Android you can simply use your phone
I'm so glad you mentioned hacking/pirating into these options. If everything is in my car and they try to charge me for a subscription use, I will absolutely bypass to a switch and turn it on manually. That is easy even with programming now because it's all just volt reading. I can pull the positive and negative manually and tie it to power amd a switch. I'll have heated seats for no subscription.
Wait until they put a controller chip inside the heated seats, requiring you to run your own wires to bypass it or figure out how to authenticate with it.
Guess I won't be buying a new car any time soon. I've got a 2020 and my wife has a 2021. They will do us for a long time. I wouldn't be brand loyal to someone who who was trying to rip me off.
I have a new maverick on order, bought the copilot 360. I wouldn’t pay to use it after I bought it. I also have the Ford app only because I get about 300 bucks to spend in the service department for accessories or services
Mazda makes their own car keys and they’re $350 if you lose them. It can’t be hacked like the Toyota or Lexus. They were too cheap to put the correct ignition system from the start so the customers pay twice.
If theres a will there is a way. Many cars today include anti theft systems that prevent start up, but most ECM´s have a fail safe mode for such occasions that antitheft system equipment fails, increased availability of premade software and OBD ports also allows to to unlock and even start a car without a key There are various ways to reset/disable the antitheft system momentarily by engaging the fail safe mode, in some cars its as simple as fumbling with the ignition lock, or the door locks, fumbling with the car battery just to name a few simple ones
Hyundai tried that. I went to Home Depot, found a key with similar grooves and then took the keys to the tool rental area and used the grinding wheel for a minute. 4 keys, $10. Sure, they didn't have an electronic fob, but they opened the doors and trunk and started the car just fine.
@@prman9984 Most Antitheft systems have dumb/hardlocking features requiring use of a key to be held in certain position in one of the locks to validate key with out the presence of a chip, some antitheft systems monitor the operation of the door locks and ignition lock with pre-programmed if than that conditions to achieve the same outcome.
I would gladly pay for features up front when I purchase a car. I WILL NEVER PAY ANY SUBSCRIPTION FOR FEATURES. Keep up the great work Steve. Love your content!
If they’re doing subscriptions to use hardware already built into the car, there had better be discounts for the cars with subscriptions. On its face, it’s consumer hostile and a terrible idea. I think consumer push back on this will be pretty large.
Hacking the software was my first thought. It's going to happen. My second thought was that if the automakers really want to get consumers to accept this subscription concept, then the price of their cars must drop a lot. For example, like the printer+ink sales model.
Hacking is getting harder and harder....gm, ford, dodge and few extra use a different system than tesla so hacking requires physical contact to break into the modules...they are encrypting them so it makes it harder....until they go to over the air communications it will be difficult no matter how you look at it....breaking into a fossil fuel car is harder to do than a computer on your desktop.
@@walterwhite2270 yeah... EVERYONE who wants to mod their car will have physical contact with the car. I struggle to see your point. Duh it's not going to be easy. Developing hacks for consoles and smartphones to be able to root and run homebrew is very hard too, yet people do that for free in a "because we can" way.
QUESTION: I own the car (hardware), they own the activation (software), and I am paying monthly service fee. When it stops working, who pays to fix it and how do I get them to stop billing me while it is not working. For heated seats, can I just pay for the service Dec. thru March and not pay the rest of the year? Here in Texas why would I pay for this in August when the morning low temperature is 80 and the afternoon high is 105? So many questions on how this would all work.
Can you really call it building brand loyalty? Sounds like selling brand loyalty because building loyalty is expensive and cuts too much in to profits.
its just like having a Sat Nav unit and u have to pay for weather and traffic services, btw...i believe GM does that already with some safety modules in the vehicle seats; where u have to pay online to GM , so you can get a code to unlock the accesible programing feature.
I love the idea that car companies think that charging you a monthly fee for features already in your car is a way to: “Build Brand Loyalty”.
Exactly they know what they're doing to people, they make a complicated in processing so the idea of leaving that car company will feel like a technical divorce.
"Holding the customer hostage" is more accurate.
More like locking you in a walled garden.
I will run as far as possible from any car manufacturers that implement these sorts of business practices and I hope an underground economy for cracking and bypassing these subscription fees eats the companies that do. You buy the car, it's yours so you should control the features it's equipped with.
It's a great idea! Because some 13 year old will figure out how to reprogram the cars computer with an OBD plug... And sell a kit for 150 bucks that unlocks everything.
...and then the car companies wont make jack, yet will have supplied all the parts.
To the automakers: Do you want hackers?! Cause that's how you get hackers!
They already HAVE hackers. There was a you tube video that proved its possible to hack someone else's car while they are driving and fuck with things like the radio and the power steering pump and anti lock breaks and cruise control................ Its thought by the conspiracy theorists out there that this is how they killed that one reporter that had dirt on Hillery C...............
@@HighmageDerin seen that video. Guy was driving around and the "hacker" just turned something off or did something funny. Freaky and to why i like my 82 c30.
I absolutely believe that car manufacturers are greedy enough to implement such a strategy. But being a person of 60 years old, I will never ever pay for such a thing. "It's the principle". I'd rather drive an older car that provides me autonomy over my property.
Ford and GM can’t even fix their constant recalls, yet this is a good idea. 🤦♀️
@Albo alt Nope, if a company doesn't give me a good value in good faith, they don't get ANY of my money. Give me that, or I go elsewhere.
Those type of car will be phased out by restricting manufacture of parts to keep them going.
They are already going after shops on YT for making modifications.
The LUST for Money, is the ROOT of ALL EVIL!
That’s why I still own my Dad’s 1975 Chrysler imperial. I had to have the engine rebuilt and when I did the mechanic put a new heads in order to use unleaded fuel.
I love how my 25-year-old car has ZERO network connectivity. There are far fewer things that can go wrong between bad software and anti-consumer "features."
This sort of crap is why I have 2 2003 Outbacks and am going through them thoroughly to make them last the rest of my life.
My custom-built bike has internet and bluetooth systems, also custom-built. The only person doing any kind of locking of systems is me. ;-)
Lovely just plain lovely tis it not lovely oh BLESS YOU MY CHILD...YOU ARE FORGIVEN...MY CHILD...🚘⛵🛴⛵
The challenge is can we make this 25 year old vehicle run for another 30 years?
As a mechanic I'm stoked for this. I'll be getting more customers who want their seat heaters bypassed
I would use my nephew.
not to mention the dealer reset of the tire pressure indicator
Thank you for doing the right thing good sir
Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, as the old(er than me lol!) saying goes. Who's to say that the manufacturers will make the service info needed to do even minor things, let alone major ones, available to any shop that's not a dealership? John Deere and others are already known not doing it.
@@MikeBrown-ii3pt I think it'll still happen. Fewer programmers and engineers use farm equipment than automobiles.
To build brand loyalty with me is to make a device that I can use without needing subscriptions for basic functionality. Heated seats, automatic high beams, etc. should be included in the initial price and not be a subscription service. I dislike having too many subscriptions particularly for something I need to use regularly. The product does not matter; it can be a car, software, or many IoT devices the more I need subscription to use it the less I want to use it.
Make it work right, make it work well, make it work a long, long time, I'm loyal. Heck, I might be loyal if I get 2/3 of that list, especially if the design is visually pleasing. Make it work but only if I'm getting my bank card charged monthly, then I'm loyal to anyone but that company.
I guarantee that charging me subscription fees for common-sense things in/on my own car will not create brand loyalty on my part. It will do the opposite.
Problem is, they'll all do it.
This line blows me away: "This approach can also allow carmakers to streamline manufacturing by building cars to more uniform specifications, Mark Wakefield, who runs the automotive and industrial practice at the consulting firm AlixPartners, told Insider. Down the line, owners can add on the features they want à la carte."
Do they actually expect me to believe that car manufacturers are going to spend the extra money to put in all of the disabled features and NOT pass that cost onto the customers who DON'T opt to enable the features? Are they going to reduce the profit they make on each car sold with no features in the hopes of making up the difference from the suckers who get the features? I don't believe that for a second.
That's my big concern. I don't want to pay hundred of dollars for options I don't want but have to buy because the manufacturers hope that I or a future owner will pay a monthly fee to use them.
As long as I can SUBTRACT features, a la carte, for an appropriate reduction in the price, I'm okay with this.
To be fair, farm tractor manufacturers already do this. They started standardized 4x4 and a few options. You just get a programed lower HP rating that a Tune can bump it up. Buying the lower version and getting bootleg tumer in turn makes the lower tractor equivalent to the larger brother but cheaper in cost because of the model number. It's stupid. If you do find the equivalent non 4x4 model, expect it to be within a couple grand of the 4x4 version. Basically screwing over the consumer...
I for one, look forward to hearing about the first lawsuit where someone hacks their heated seats to work without paying....and see what the car company has to say about pirating your own property. :)
if Apple couldn't win against people jailbreaking phones, car companies have no chance.
It will happen. Will be interesting trial.
Have they ever sued their customers for custom wheels, custom radio, aftermarket exhaust, tuners or anything else you put on it after you buy it? How would replacing the computer differ from an engine tuner? I say they piss a lot of people off then lose in court.
Actually, that's a simple one: if you hack the software/firmware to get the seats to work, you're in trouble. If you wire in a switch to put juice directly to the heaters, you're OK.
Apple's found a solution, it's called serialized parts. So if you get a new screen from another company, the phone sees an invalid part for the phone's screen, and the phone won't start.
So imagine the same with your heated seats. Or say the heated seats broke, and suddenly you can't drive home. Because the seats are broken.
Then see that the same has already happened for farming equipment. and medical equipment. For instance, if you want to replace a motor on certain medical beds that move it up and down, you have to replace the entire bed. A $200 part replacement turns into a $10,000 replacement.
Instead of "Your car warranty is about to expire" calls, we'll be getting "Your seat warming subscription is about to expire" from scammers
I will never pay for a car subscription. Ever.
Then walk
Do you have a lease?
LOL
@@Kevin-bl6lg I have a classic car collection.
Mustangs, Trans Am, vintage Jeeps.
@@TheBandit7613 That's what I was thinking. I may already own the car I'll have for the rest of my life.
good luck driving without fuel and insurance
We have to stand against these types of schemes as consumers. Thank you Steve for your analysis, as always.
As a hardware and software engineer I will gladly help design and build devices to by pass such subscriptions to allow using equipment already included within your original purchased
And lie to the car software that everything is still A-OK.
I'm using the Arduino MKR CAN but I'm looking into the PIO of the RP2040 as a cheaper replacement. If that can't be done I'll try a ESP32 with an MCP2515. The only real challenge is harvesting the signals and sorting out what is what. It took me about a week to develop a process and understand the data from my Mini Cooper. I can probably do the same on any car in a day.
@@rickh6963 you wouod be smart to establish yourself in that space now before anyone else really can
Me too. I offer my software engineering abilities to anyone who wants to work on a defeat device.
Oh, you devilish devs! :)
You joked about it, Steve, but I'm convinced that in their most fevered fantasies the automakers would love to charge a subscription fee for car owners to be allowed to actually drive their cars.
remember - they only make money on these schemes if you buy their products. if the take rate on these subscription-based options is low enough, they won't do it. vote with your wallets!
Yep! This 100%!
Ooor, and hear me out here, what if we just ban it?
Too bad the majority of consumers are idiots.
Not if they all do it at the same time.
I will not argue with that. Although, expect the idiots to.
Here in Britain, there's already a business in GPS 'jammers' which fool the in-car systems regarding where you are and speed. This is because insurance companies make installing trackers a condition of insurance for some people and void the insurance if the GPS shows you've been speeding etc.
I, personally, can do the same thing about this that I did with cable tv, satellite radio, and all of the subscription services for music. That is, I don't participate. Never had cable tv, never paid for satellite radio, put up with ads in music subscription services. I'm golden. I avoid monthly fees at all costs, unless something is truly useful for me and fits with my lifestyle.
So for folks like me what I see happening here is all cars will come with all options installed, but you've got to pay a subscription service to actually use them. Not a problem. There are very few options I really care about. One exception might be electric windows. But I doubt they're going to put a hand crank in for those of us who refuse to pay the monthly fee.🤣
By the way, I noticed just yesterday that TH-cam now has upped "1 of 2" ads to "1 of 3". I just do the same thing I've been doing for months: if I'm given the option to skip the ads after 5 seconds I hang out and then skip the ads. If I'm not given the option I simply go out of the video close it and go back in. I may have to do this three times. But eventually what happens is I go straight to the ad or it starts out with only one 5 second ad. Sure that might be time consuming sometimes, but at least I'm doing something and not sitting around watching a worthless ad.
I use TH-cam for my music and I have an ad blocker
Dude just download an adblocker, youre still giving them clicks.
But on topic the main issue I see with these subscriptions is that I really don't like being forced to pay recurring fees for something already included in the price of the vehicle. It's like when a game downloads DLC to your drive or includes it on the disk, but youre forced to pay more to access it. It's not right and consumers shouldn't put up with those practices. Like Steve said, if it's novel features that make sense to be subscription based, like special GPS software, autopilot, etc. then it isnt so bad, but knowing I paid to have heating elements in my seat that can only be activated if I pay more for someone to remotely activate them, that feels so bad.
Hardware based optional features make sense to have a one time fee to initiate. Once initiated it should follow the car to the next owner. Software based optional services that require access to a server provided by someone else makes sense that a monthly or annual fee be assessed for that service. Those fees, however should only go to the service provider. E.g. if you are using satellite radio you sould be paying the satellite radio company and not the car manufacturer.
@@TheVerendus FWIW, I use the AVAST browser so I don't have a problem with ads on my desktop. It's the cell phone where I have the problem. I'm very niggardly about what I'll install on my phone. On a related note, I've never paid a cent for software for any smart phone I've ever owned except one time: I paid five bucks for Winamp, because I'd been using it for years for free and it was very valuable to me - and then they went out of business.
BTW, I'd have no problem with them installing all these options and thane requiring a ONE TIME fee to unlock them.
@@ianbelletti6241 I totally concur.
Ben grabbing a coffee! If it happens we all just stop buying new cars. Personally I hate taking a 20% loss when it hits the street. My question, how long til they can hack or rechip the car so it all works sans the manufacturer subscription? Customers need to make it clear from now that we are not willing to pay for any subscription based services.
If you own the car, what's to stop you form modifying things yourself or paying someone to do it? The controller for the heated seats is likely to be very easy to remove and replace and make use of the in-seat heating elements. Same for the in-dash stuff. I'd be willing to bet that there would be a ton of third-party aftermarket solutions that don't require a subscription. It may not work for some of the most advanced features like "autopilot" type modes. But it will certainly work for things like heated seats, remote start, entertainment options. Or in order to buy the car are they going to make you sign a legally-binding contract not to do so? But then, if you sell the car, the second owner won't be restricted from making such changes.
This is not likely to go well for the manufacturers.
Actually, I look forward to opening a business where we provide a module that gives you Total Control of your vehicle and disables their network access...
😅👍
If they disallow you from modifying it, it my be a monopoly you could fight against. "Your car already has remote start. We can't/not allowed to add another one."
This is along the same lines as MSwindows back in the day forcing us to use IE.
you won't be able to do this with cars that have a leasing contract. also it may void warranties and make resale harder as the car has been tampere with. also they likely find a way to have this all integrated into the car electronics and then hacking it will be much harder and may impact safety features like airbag controllers and such.
The same thing that’s keeping small auto shops from efficiently fixing new cars. Everything is so locked down that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to pull diagnostic data or reprogram that one module for the code to go away.
The agriculture industry let John Deere get away it and now are fighting to get some sort of control back. The same is already happening in the automotive industry.
OBDII only gets you so far, and with an “always connected” infotainment system, what’s to keep them from disabling all “optional” features if it detects you don’t have a subscription?
Imagine the homebrew possibilities. There's even open source ai assisted self driving.
Something I just thought of...If you're paying a monthly fee for heated seats and they fail out of warranty, what happens? You're essentially renting the heated seats, shouldn't they fix them?
Subscription based heated seats.
Electrical Engineer: "Hold, my beer."
Exactly what I was thinking. How long until cottage industries pop up that build switches that turn these on without the subscription, especially heated seats.
Im sure as soon as someone makes a workaround, car companies will pay politicians to make doing so illegal. Maybe even shut the cars off remotely if a work around is detected.
@@damham5689 aftermarket ECU it is.
@@damham5689 The best they could do there would be to do some sort of encryption like Apple has with their touch screens an then try to file DMCA claims against anyone that breaks the encryption... at which point I say let them because we would actually be able to get DMCA fixed from dumbshit like that once some politician is forced to sit on a cold leather seat.
Me to engineer-
"I'll hold your beer , & if you fx this, I'll buy you a case"
I love you channel, Steve. I worked in manufacturing for a bit or so. Yes, there is a huge benefit for manufacturing products - and selling products - with all that stuff built in and then simply turning it on or off electronically. A wierd example: Did you ever walk down the cereal isle in a grocery store? There are so many options/ choices that customers just walk away becuase of the customer fatigue the product complexity causes... "Ugh!. All I wanted was a stupid box of cereal!!" Also, most customers want to buy a car and not fret over regrets - "Should I have bought the heated seats? Will I ever use lane keep assist? Does it really work? Will I ever use a remote start from my phone?". This approach can reduce the customer's purchasing fatigue. Oh, I'm with everyone else, I would NEVER use a subscription service, and will stomp my key FOB into the dirt if it didn't start the car remotely. Good stuff, sir.
It's passing strange that carmakers, while pretending to be "green", think that putting features in vehicles (heated seats as one example) that won't be used unless the car owner pays a subscription fee isn't a huge waste of resources. Heating elements, wires, computer modules and such needed to heat seats add up to a lot of potentially wasted and unused material built in to each car in the hopes of a subscription windfall. Sheer hypocrisy as I can't believe that that the materials used for these features will ever be truly recoverable when the vehicle is "recycled", never mind the energy cost required to build them in in the first place. Big auto has obviously looked around and seen the dollar signs. Cable companies' bundling practices, banks' transaction fee models, and firms like Apple and John Deere who are fighting tooth and nail to prevent their customers from repairing products they own. It's a dystopian future for all of us who will soon only rent the products we buy. Coming soon, the latest range of connected refrigerators that will allow you to open the door five times a day for free, but if you need to get to your food any more than that you'd better subscribe. Corporate greed is using tech to turn us all into hostages and serfs.
I can see it now people buying rolls of tape to lock that refrigerators door button in the door closed position followed by the companies adding a the door must opened at least x times a day or they assume you "hacked" it and lock you out of the refrigerator.
It ultimately saves them money to make 1 car that has everything vs 4 classes for example of the same vehicle. Thats why it makes sense for them financially. The cost of including the heating element is cheaper than having separate lines and more employees. Just don't buy into is the best solution for it to go away.
Just imagine, said refrigerators may be linked to your health care provider to help determine your risk/premium levels!
All the costs involved in creating and installing these products were included in the initial price of the product. n
But usage of those products are billable services. .... This will happen, like it or not. Control of these products can also be turned on or off depending upon your social views or 'failure to comply'.... This is a part of the coming Socialism in government control. All things can be used for good or bad. But there will always be those in power who will decide control is better than free will of the citizenry. ...... Take a guess at where feminism will take this.....And this is just a sample of where all those other socialist entities will push this. .... There will be incentives to never engage with anyone else in anyway that can put their control in your life. .... No friendships, no marriage, no memberships, ,,,, You will not even want any bonding with anyone you meet for fear of restitutions.
As for the cable companies' bundling, a lot of that comes from the networks. e.g. Want Disney Channel? Here, have ESPN, as well.
Cutting the cord and moving to streaming isn't as a-la-carte as you would think. Want CBS but despise MTV? Goo luck on that one.
The only terms under which I will even CONSIDER paying a subscription for such features is if:
1. There is no up-front cost for the feature. I'm not paying for the hardware and paying a subscription for using it.
2. They cover ALL repairs on the equipment, as long as there is a subscription.
3. The feature, by it’s very nature, requires ongoing work/services by the company or a third party. This doesn’t mean it’s ok simply because the manufacturer implemented it in a means that requires some external validation, it must be inherent by the nature of the feature itself.
Heated seats are a great example. There is no reason those require any external validation. I would never subscribe to heated seats. I would never subscribe to remote door lock/unlock or remote start. If the remote features offer some useful benefit via a cellular connection, I MIGHT be willing to subscribe to cellular data for the vehicle, but that would depend entirely on the value of the features vs the costs.
"You will own nothing, listen to NPR, and be happy!" It's been such a long time since I've even desired a new car!
come on dude the NPR thing was a weird glitch that even the radio station was trying to help fix good god y'all people just look at the fucking headlines of shit and then freak out its pathetic
I purchased a 21 F150 and it came with a modem for WiFi. I pay $25 a month for unlimited data. Also the navigation has a yearly subscription if you want up to date in real time traffic reports. So it is already an established practice by the auto makers to have certain options come with the vehicle and only gaining access after a subscription is paid.
The thing about that is that there is an actual ongoing cost to the manufacturer for those things. If you pay $25 per month to Ford for unlimited data, then Ford has to turn around and buy that bandwidth from Verizon or some other cell carrier to service your contract. Likewise, the company that handles the navigation has ongoing expenses in updating maps and updating traffic reports. If we think about the idea of buying a subscription for heated seats... once those seats are installed in the vehicle, the manufacturer has ZERO ongoing cost. Any subscription fee they charge for heated seats is going to be 100% profit for them.
Well … for the last 56 years I have been driving without most of these options/features. For whatever time I have left driving … I can do without them. I sure won’t be nickelled and dimed to “unlock” any of these features.
I live in Minnesota and have never had heated seats. Once the heater went out on my 1984 Ford Escort so I just used a blanket in the winter.
Amazing how they think you will pay a subscription price for anything you buy and begins to depreciate as soon as you buy it. 3rd party modifications will be a new industry to remove subscription equipment and replace it with self-owned “heating seats” etc.
Yep. As soon as any major car company tries to implement this garbage they'll be up against an entire global industry of people trying to make money off of ways to bypass it.
@@Strideo1 if it will void any kind of warranty most people will not do it...because someone on social media will say it will void the warranty. Example...today gm has a feature called AFM/DOD where it turns a V8 engine into a 4 Cylinder when coasting to supposedly save fuel and emissions....There are ways to turn this off in the computer so the vehicle stays in V8 mode all the time....this does not void your warranty yet people will not do this because they think or read somewhere that it will void your warranty....
BTW...you are less likely to have engine failure because you kept the engine in V8 mode than if you let it switch between V8 and V4 mode....
@@walterwhite2270 What are they gonna do? Void the warranty on the heated seats that I effectively wouldn't have anyways without paying the subscription fee?
Folks remember Steve keeps up to date on the automotive manufacturing industry. I'm confident he has network contacts with others who working in this industry.
Consumer protection for automotive industry is his bread and butter from his practice.
Considering how little security these companies put into their integrated systems, these will be rooted and unlocked in days.
Even easier you can just unplug the thing that is a subscription in question. (Such as the heating element) and then just hot wire in your own switch. Bob’s your uncle, you got free heated seats. And it doesn’t have to be a hack job either I guarantee a pirate aftermarket will emerge to make it even easier
@@2ndGenBen that's LITERALLY what he was talking about....
I just love how so many of the people who insist that you're "wrong" (on this, on the $100 bill thing, etc) have clearly never bothered with an obscure site called "Google" that could confirm or deny their suspicions...
As for the car makers - We know damn well they're gonna do whatever they can to maximize the base price of these cars, as always, rather than offering a lower-priced model that lacks even the capability to use these subscription features. Two default packages (one for "all," one for "none) are still simpler for them to deal with than half a dozen different configurations.
Everything is going to be a subscription before long. We will eventually own nothing. We will just be renters. It started with music, then TV and movies, then computer software, and will expand where ever it can because it provides a regular recurring cash flow over something you could just buy and own outright in the past. One side effect is it becomes harder and harder to live a disconnected life because none of your stuff will work without an internet connection which don't even exist in some parts of the U.S. let alone if you just don't feel like having everything you do tracked.
It's called "The Great Reset", where the general population will own nothing, and be happy. This COVID 19 plandemic is the start of this type of "New World Order"
@@Rock-Bottem1982 That's just conspiracy nonsense. The subscription model is just the natural outcome of greedy companies being introduced to these new technical capabilities and business models.
Why do some people think every new trend must be the result of some shadowy group of powerful individuals? I guess some people just want the world to be simple for them with simple causes and effects they can blame things on.
@@Strideo1 you believe in what you want, while reality says the opposite
@@Rock-Bottem1982 That describes the typical conspiracy theorist to a T.
@@Strideo1 and? Just because you labeled me as a Conspiracy Theorists, doesn't mean I'm wrong, or crazy. I just see past the mainstream media bullshit, unlike you
"Your Honor, my brakes were sufficient to avoid the child chasing her wayward ball. My subscription braking system ramped up the pay-as-you-go real-time fee for using the brakes due to the value of not hitting the child. Unfortunately, I didn't have sufficient funds in my account, so the brakes weren't activated and I hit the child."
😂😂
Sorry officer for flashing high beams and blinding you. But mobile data is patchy here.
Yes, officer i know my brake lights didnt work. Couldn't afford them this month sadly
The car has no need to tell if that thing in the way is a cardbord box, a dog, or a child.
For the software either is "a thing in the way". The goal is: "Do not hit things in the way."
@@brandoncaldwell95 That would be driving with a car that is not save for traffic.
In the best case that is a warning and a order that you can not drive it further until it is repaired.
At worst, it is a deadly crash where you have no coverage by insurance.
So as a general advise: Don't.
Absolutely not touching this business model. May this destroy any company who goes down this business model.
If they all do it, I suppose you can start riding a bicycle.
Just say thank you Tesla!
There’s a huge difference between assisted cruise and heated surfaces… they also have to remember that many of us buy a car based on monthly expenditure… so that monthly number still has to be below some number.
I look forward to an open source software project to unlock all car features. And luckily for us (but not so great for farmers) John Deere's antics in trying to get farmers jailed under the DMCA for trying to repair their tractors have ironed out a lot of the legal questions involved.
Hopefully the car industry won't go back to the old model until after we get a few great models of cars we can mod!
unless the manufactures are forced not to encrypt their modules it will be very hard to make changes...even for open source......
@@walterwhite2270 If they do this it's going to get to a point where it will be common to see people yanking out the manufacturer computer hardware and replacing it with aftermarket parts.
@@walterwhite2270 As Lord Sheogorath said replacement of hardware, or bypassing specific hardware modules is an option. (And it's much easier in a car than a phone.) But even without that most manufacturers include some obscure method of flashing unencrypted software and or firmware in case something goes really wrong. Using it won't allow you to watch Netflix, run a banking app, or play Pokemon go, but I hope those aren't popular activities while driving anyway.
I haven't been very active in all of that for a while because some manufacturers now make mod friendly devices, but it used to take between a couple of months and a couple of years to find a workaround for a new system.
This is already a thing with factory remote start systems. On my Hyundai Sonata Sport, it comes with heated mirrors and seats. You can manually control the seats but not the mirrors. The mirrors are automatically controlled. They later disabled the heated mirrors in software, (via update to the remote start system) AFTER I had already purchased the car. Apparently they decided ex post facto that heated mirrors would be a Limited trim feature. Of course I bypassed this, but I shouldn't have to.
Straight = Free
Left Turns = $0.05 each
Right Turns = unlimited $1,000/year
This option brought to you in partnership with NASCAR.
Windshield wipers = you can't afford that option.
Can you go backwards in this model?
@@bradoswalt1616 That's in the upgrade.
I wouldn't have a problem with this as long as the price for what would be an extra cost option today isn't added to the M.S.R.P. of the vehicle UNLESS/UNTIL the option(s) are activated. The only option I've ever used that you mentioned is the cruise control but, it's not adaptive c/c as mentioned (and I wouldn't want it to be). A tilt wheel, a/c, cruise control and a plain, simple stereo is all that I want. Power windows and locks are nice sometimes but I've lived without them and all the other garbage for years. I have no need or want for anything else as long as I get where I need to go and back.
This makes me totally appreciate my 1999 Toyota Sienna with over 330k miles. I can just visual someone hacking into these "smart app" vehicles and holding them for ransom!! Until you pay the bucks the vehicle is useless!
Yup. I always fear someone is going to hack tesla and brick all of them. Or even worse, start crashing them. Now all the auto makers are going to have this vulnerability.
I don't like centrally managed things unless they are my things that i am centrally managing.
Yea and at that point who’s responsible for redeeming the car? You? Your insurance? Car makers?
I hear ya on the TV cable/ satellite scam, we dumped them years ago, we only have phone and internet. I hooked the Google Chromebox up to the TV. We still get local channels, but have NEVER missed watching TV, I can catch most things on TH-cam (Netflix, and Disney Plus; my family watches these).
Imagine how large the secondary market is going to grow to fill the demand car owners are going to have for permanent non-subscription features.
Steve, every since I heard of this. I’ve decided to make sure I never get a car that has those subscriptions. I can understand Xm radio, but this is ridiculous.
As someone that generally buys a slightly used car and drives it until it's ready for the scrap heap, I can see a whole lot of negative response to their attempt to have pay for use systems. Anyone that keeps a vehicle for more than - oh - say 3 years (if they understand basic math) will see that they are going to pay several hundreds if not thousands for these features over the course of those years, so the "great deal" they got on their vehicle just went out the window.
One day I woke up and nobody wanted to sell you software anymore they all wanted you to subscribe. So this doesn’t surprise me.
Subscription service for options like this opens the market for after market, non-subscription add-ons.
The Aftermarket equipment market is already there
trying to milk money for essential basics such as heated seats or central locking will push more people for using aftermarket equipment.
I'm guessing such modifications will void the vehicle warranty.
@@HappyHoboRecovery BuH mY SaFeTy DiAgNoStIcS. Will be the excuse
@@apyllyon heated seats are not an "essential basic". Same with remote start and auto high beams, never owned a car with them.
@@HappyHoboRecovery Not allowed under US law.
hardware hacks can work too, heated seat with a modded on off switch, negate the need for software and do a hardware mod, there is even a few workable homemade wireless relay switches for key-less start you can do, heated steering wheel, same mod you did on the seats do it onto the wheel as well, just find the corresponding wires that turn on the induction elements and boom, you got yourself free hand warmers and free butt warmers for the cold weather travels.
My friends company is already working on boxes to make aftermarket systems
Oh yeah I've seen this coming probably about five six years ago and boat companies started this like Seawind. i agree with you 100%, I'm not one of those guys that don't believe you otherwise I won't be watching you. You don't need any information for from anybody you're great we love you keep up the good work
13:40 Steve: "If they came up with a way to get the car to charge itself over the air, in other words your car's dead by the side of the road but you could press a button to put more electricity in your car.." (i.e. electric power sent wirelessly though the air) "...people would pay for that." Nikola Tesla: "Now THAT would be a car worthy of my name!"
Exactly - had the same thought.
Of course now we would get it once they figure out how to make good money off it.
Don't stand in the path of the beam or wave of energy....probably fry you from the inside out....or at least give you a good tan....
Surely in this case the manufacturer is holding back a reserve of charge that is unlocked once you pay up.
For the politicians out there; how much more money would be in circulation if we weren't being ripped off ALL the time?
I have a 2019 Genesis G70. My warranty ends in September 2022. At that time I will have to pay a $100 +- annual fee for a number of advanced features that I have to continue working. I don't remember what the list is, but it includes my remote start function as well as the road assistance function and possibly my GPS. I was not told when I purchased the vehicle and am not happy about it- of course. I would say that "I will never purchase a Hyundai product again, but I suppose by the time I need my next car, they all will have it...
How will this affect the value of the vehicle especially on the used market? Will insurance companies reimburse you for subscription features if your car is totaled?
I doubt it for example if you paid a subscription for the radio service before a crash most insurance will not if your lucky you might get a partial refund explaning to the radio subscription place that the radio was destroyed in the crash.
They'll make me build brand loyalty with the brands that hold out the longest… after that, they will just get me to do everything in my power to bypass that trash.
Ben's got hold of that mug again, Hoping for a wee drop of whisky maybe?
In front of Slehto Virginia plate Steve's LHS
I have worked in a car dealership for 40 year's and yes it's happening along with kill switches and alcohol detection ECT
If this becomes the norm. I imagine that one day, even car breaks will require you to pay for a subscription to work
I see an option to pay for choosing to drive as fast as you want, or within tiers of speeds - 1 ticket equivalent per day for 10 over, or 20 over...
What is to stop the aftermarket from hacking the system.
"Voiding" the warranty, careful what you sign for on purchase
@@Bobs-Wrigles5555 Then the kill switch will brick your car
@@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76 Exactly!
These subscriptions seem to start when the warranty runs out anyway.
In Car Talk I read an article that stated the subscription costs of a new car could end up adding up to more than the car payments. By the way, I would never have heated seats. I can heat my seats just fine.
When I first for some of these ideas coming to light. I thought to myself maybe that makes sense but how do I own my vehicle then? If I'm in possession of it and that's 9/10 of the law. How can a manufacturer say that I can or cannot use some of the features built into it? It's like Tesla who puts 90 kilowatt batteries in a vehicle but only sells it as a 60 KW vehicle. I hate regulation but at some point there just needs to be a lot of states if you sell something to somebody that individual gets complete ownership of everything that is encapsulated into that physical item. What's to stop somebody from getting a vehicle that has a subscription seat heater from cutting the wires and hooking them up to their own switch?
That's how it will work maybe hacking software that takes complete control of your computer so you can make it do anything you want with out the car company consent
Or they route the starter through the proprietary switch to the seats so it has to get and confirm switch code before the engine will start... something goofy. Or they will completely void your warranty if you make changes.
I recall a person that I knew who bought a C-PAP machine. It was hers, except for some little component inside it which the company that sold it retained ownership of. That required a monthly charge. A big pain and a cost that someone on a fixed income didn't need..
What is the penalty for wiring the heated seats to a control module that YOU own?
I see a real after market opportunity.
Modifying cars will trigger the kill switch.
@@Daves_Not_Here_Man_76 And the army of million dollar lawyers employed by the auto makers will sue you for IP violations since they will claim you are bypassing security features of the car's software.
Usually you need to drive at least a mile for the tire light to reset, it needs to rotate to verify wheel speed with other wheels through ABS wheel speed sensors. It's a check on the tire sensor to verify it's functioning correctly. A flat tire wheel has smaller diameter.
My heated seats cost me atleast a hundred bucks a month. Well, that's what the wife charges me for sitting on my side of the car for a few minutes. Seems fair to me. :o)
Wives are inherently a Subscription Service. You know going in it’s gonna cost you every day …
It wouldn't surprise me if they charge you a disconnect fee and a reconnect fee during seasonal use and disuse.
I got a 2020 Chev Colorado WT 4X4 for a daily driver. It didn't come with any of the OnStar, WiFi, or connectivity stuff when I bought it and the dealership was trying to convince me to have it installed, even so far as to offer discounts later on as I kept saying no. I'm perfectly fine having, probably, one of the not smartest, of the trucks on the road these days lol.
This is pretty much extortion. Could you imagine buying a product, and then that product not working, and when you complain they respond “oh, you have to pay a SUBSCRIPTION fee to use it.” Absolutely insane.
You mean like the airbag vest for motorcyclists that you have to pay a subscription fee on or it doesn't work?
When it comes down to car rental leasing and Paying off bank loans I think this is an awesome idea as long as it stops once you own it. Having a hand in here when it comes down to a company's fleet vehicles, This kind of negotiation is beneficial in both parties. It has its place it just needs to have a set line of where it stops.
This reminds me of the story about Intel and their 486 line of CPUs. They offered the 486DX and the 486SX. They were the same circuitry, except the SX lacked the ability to use the built-in math co-processor. They did this by designing the chip in a way that, when you ran a current through a built-in fuse on the chip at the factory, it burned out the connection to the math co-processor. So they deliberately sabotaged a certain number of their DX chips to create a separate price point for customers. Kind of brilliant in a way, but also a little messed up.
And AMD had a Sempron with 4 CPU cores, but only gave you 2. I bought it for $50. Then I turned on the other 2 cores on my motherboard and overclocked it to match the performance of a $450 CPU.
@@prman9984 I remember AMD doing that. I also remember success on re-enabling the cores depended on why they had been disabled in the first place. If it was for the price point, fare and well. If it was a bad core, not so good.
I see major push back for any ongoing fee other than ongoing services like cell phone links that let you get data (assuming that the app actually works) like maintenance items or cell phone calling.
Many products that have more advanced versions have features of the more advanced versions but require a minor change to add the feature. In cars, some have harnesses for extra options that only require that the option part be added.
I can see a popular but failed attempt to use the embedded option (like heated seats or advanced dash displays) as a ONETIME fee. I think that people will be more amenable to that than a monthly fee. But, as you indicated, some hackers will find the way to send the codes to turn them on. It also would bring up the question of can a buyer of a used car add the option?
Here is how I feel about it. If I paid for the hardware included in the sale price. I better be able to use it.
1:58 At car dealership: _"Your car has heating elements, do you want to be able to use it for extra $25.00"_
_"Well, Honda next door offers heated car seat included for free in price, so tell me what are you going to offer me for me to stay here and not go to them"_
Seems like this could launch a major After-Market industry with installation of similar non-subscription features.
Is there any point in brand loyalty? I mean if brand-A tries to keep its customers and convince B-brand-customers to come over, but brand-B does the exact same thing, then neither will benefit.
If you want to compete, just make a better product, or offer the a product of the same quality at a lower price.
Ben - Pretty obvious. Steve's left, cup's handle.
Outstanding speed.
I have a 2018 silverado and to use the on board navigation a subscription to onstar is required. Thankfully, Google maps remains free.
I am already uncomfortable knowing that my phone can be used by government agencies to follow my movements. The idea that vehicle options can be turned on and off based on a subscription services mode controlled by multinational tech corporations is another layer of uncomfortable connectivity that creeps me out.
there are some software based features where this could make sense (like automatic street map updates and weather/traffic info on the nav system). When it comes to activating hardware features that are simply switched on i guess most customers will be pissed. unfortunately there will be many customers who don't care and simply pay. this then makes these fees "normal" and everybody will have to pay. especially when it's deals like first three years free or included with the monthly leasing fees. The only hope is that the competition between car companies is fierce enough so that customers get a choice.
This is going to make me a fortune. I've been building a "glass dashboard" for my mini cooper by intercepting the can-bus communications and displaying the output on a tablet. Since all of this will be enabled by such a device I'll just get the codes and send them myself. I'll gladly package up my solution for anyone that wants to buy it.
Do note that currently they are not required to expose this information to the CAN-BUS. They probably do, out of cost/laziness if nothing else, but it's only a matter of time until they don't should they realize they don't have to use the main bus instead of using a proprietary secondary bus protocol.
@@Cutest-Bunny998 The automotive aftermarket is well funded and will provide solutions for this.
There is a company out of FL that sells subscriptions to cars. Not to features but to real cars. It's similar to a lease but you can swap cars every few months if you so choose. I was a shareholder of them, but have since sold my shares, because I needed to redeploy the capital elsewhere
What happens when time marches on and these car companies either don't want to or are unable to continue supporting these platforms online? Your car will lose use of its features.
If that happens I'd hope the car companies would get sued and the courts would tell them they have to support the systems they made until the last user stops using it or they permanently unlock all features.
@@Strideo1 another thing that seems silly to me is the build cost. To install the physical equipment in every car (ie. Heated seats, heated steering wheel, remote start) will add quite a bit to the average build cost of a car. The cost of this equipment was initially offset by the consumer checking the box for said item and paying for it on the invoice. I don't see these companies eating the cost of this equipment, so I am sure they will raise the cost of EVERY car and then charge the monthly fee if you have the audacity to expect to use the equipment already on your car.
@@chadbloomfield3510 Yeah, I can't help but feel people will be paying the cost of this unused equipment one way or another even if at least in part through overall higher vehicle costs. I'm sure the manufacturers will try to disguise it as the usual inflation of goods or something.
I had that happen with a cloud storage drive from a very well known brand, that had years worth of data on it. It suddenly turned into a very expensive paper weight. (Until I ripped the guts out and built my own version from the parts and a Raspberry PI.
Win-Win for them! Another incentive to force buyers into new vehicles!
Just curious about the break even point for putting subscribable features in every car. I would forego heated seats and remote start if they were subscription.
Folks who deny this is happening or bump out their chest and say "We'll sue" are oblivious to the fact that this has already happened in the world of software and it will happen with cars also.
When I first entered the computer software and accessory market in the mid-80s, we purchased our software and felt we owned what we thought we purchased, despite the language in the software license agreements. If you paid $99 for a software "license", you could use that software forever and choose whether or not to buy upgrades later. Then the software industry became aware of the desire for consumers to pay a minimal fee upfront to get what they wanted now. They were willing to pay huge fees over an extended period of time as long as they had immediate gratification now, for very little down. That $99 software program could be bought (licensed) for only $39 now and then $39 every year, for as long as you wanted to use it. Over a 10-year period that $99 software program netted the developer a wapping $990 in revenue and they were able to increase the annual subscription cost at any time. Then, if the consumer balked at the cost and cancelled their subscription, they lost access to their online data so they re-subscribed again to ransom out "their" data.
Yes, you the car buyer will still own your seat heater but it won't work without the integrated software that is only accessible through an annual subscription.
I use Rhino 5 to do my CGI projects, in part because I was able to buy it as a perpetual license. I don't care if it's not cutting edge, it works fine for my purposes. I also have a copy of Photoshop CS3 on one of my old computers because it was the last one I could buy from Adobe outright, before they slammed down that cloud-only edict.
Hewlett Packard did this with a color laser printer I owned. It had the mechanics be a stand alone, networked and/or a duplex printer. Originally offered at three prices, pay more get more, they enabled the features with software. I don't think you could upgrade after purchase. It is a hard position to justify with a straight face. You pay for the parts you just can't use them. Say wah?
When I bought my last car, I got it with no options or extras. No regrets.
The car I bought was a three year old used car that came with all the bells and whistles but I paid significantly less for it because it was used. That's the sort of thing car companies will try to make go away; people getting a great deal on a car that's in great condition but has depreciated because it's slightly used.
If they implement this garbage they'll still have the potential to make money from cars like that. Although I imagine used cars will actually depreciate even faster when equiped with subscription bashed options.
Many car manufacturers in the UK are already offering fees for example BMW internet free when new but when the car gets older there is a charge. Audi also have a similar system. To upgrade maps in Mercedes again there is a charge. However with Apple CarPlay or Android you can simply use your phone
Never before have I been less inclined to buy a new car.
I'm so glad you mentioned hacking/pirating into these options. If everything is in my car and they try to charge me for a subscription use, I will absolutely bypass to a switch and turn it on manually. That is easy even with programming now because it's all just volt reading. I can pull the positive and negative manually and tie it to power amd a switch. I'll have heated seats for no subscription.
Wait until they put a controller chip inside the heated seats, requiring you to run your own wires to bypass it or figure out how to authenticate with it.
Guess I won't be buying a new car any time soon. I've got a 2020 and my wife has a 2021. They will do us for a long time. I wouldn't be brand loyal to someone who who was trying to rip me off.
I have a new maverick on order, bought the copilot 360. I wouldn’t pay to use it after I bought it. I also have the Ford app only because I get about 300 bucks to spend in the service department for accessories or services
Also have the 94 f150 and the 98 explorer and the 14 Passat that run fine and I hopefully can run them all as long as I’m alive.
Mazda makes their own car keys and they’re $350 if you lose them. It can’t be hacked like the Toyota or Lexus. They were too cheap to put the correct ignition system from the start so the customers pay twice.
If theres a will there is a way.
Many cars today include anti theft systems that prevent start up, but most ECM´s have a fail safe mode for such occasions that antitheft system equipment fails, increased availability of premade software and OBD ports also allows to to unlock and even start a car without a key
There are various ways to reset/disable the antitheft system momentarily by engaging the fail safe mode, in some cars its as simple as fumbling with the ignition lock, or the door locks, fumbling with the car battery just to name a few simple ones
Hyundai tried that. I went to Home Depot, found a key with similar grooves and then took the keys to the tool rental area and used the grinding wheel for a minute. 4 keys, $10. Sure, they didn't have an electronic fob, but they opened the doors and trunk and started the car just fine.
@@prman9984 Most Antitheft systems have dumb/hardlocking features requiring use of a key to be held in certain position in one of the locks to validate key with out the presence of a chip, some antitheft systems monitor the operation of the door locks and ignition lock with pre-programmed if than that conditions to achieve the same outcome.
I would gladly pay for features up front when I purchase a car. I WILL NEVER PAY ANY SUBSCRIPTION FOR FEATURES. Keep up the great work Steve. Love your content!
If they’re doing subscriptions to use hardware already built into the car, there had better be discounts for the cars with subscriptions. On its face, it’s consumer hostile and a terrible idea. I think consumer push back on this will be pretty large.
I been driving over 20 years now. Never needed heater seats, cruise control, remote start, or any remote locks. 2-11-22
Hacking the software was my first thought. It's going to happen.
My second thought was that if the automakers really want to get consumers to accept this subscription concept, then the price of their cars must drop a lot. For example, like the printer+ink sales model.
Hacking is getting harder and harder....gm, ford, dodge and few extra use a different system than tesla so hacking requires physical contact to break into the modules...they are encrypting them so it makes it harder....until they go to over the air communications it will be difficult no matter how you look at it....breaking into a fossil fuel car is harder to do than a computer on your desktop.
@@walterwhite2270 yeah... EVERYONE who wants to mod their car will have physical contact with the car. I struggle to see your point. Duh it's not going to be easy. Developing hacks for consoles and smartphones to be able to root and run homebrew is very hard too, yet people do that for free in a "because we can" way.
You should put a link to the articles you reference in the video description.
America's love of the automobile has fell by the wayside.
QUESTION: I own the car (hardware), they own the activation (software), and I am paying monthly service fee. When it stops working, who pays to fix it and how do I get them to stop billing me while it is not working. For heated seats, can I just pay for the service Dec. thru March and not pay the rest of the year? Here in Texas why would I pay for this in August when the morning low temperature is 80 and the afternoon high is 105? So many questions on how this would all work.
Can you really call it building brand loyalty? Sounds like selling brand loyalty because building loyalty is expensive and cuts too much in to profits.
its just like having a Sat Nav unit and u have to pay for weather and traffic services, btw...i believe GM does that already with some safety modules in the vehicle seats; where u have to pay online to GM , so you can get a code to unlock the accesible programing feature.