Torque converter adjustments to go faster!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ย. 2024
- Torque converter adjustments to go faster on stock or stage 1 go kart and stock or stage 1 mini bike kits! I show a 30 series torque converter on a mini bike and a 20 series CVT on a go kart. The 40 series can be oriented the same way as either a 30 series or 40 series in many scenarios. Keep in mind the way the spring orientation is as pointed out in the video for the best performance.
This quick mini bike performance mod can get you ahead of your buddy or up faster in the hole shot when racing. The video detailed a little with and without a stage 1 kit. The results are spaced further apart with less power. This torque converter is rated to a max HP about that of the stage 1 kits for performance.
The torque converter is one of the best mini bike accessories and go kart staples for drive train out there today. The CVT is used highly in Snowmobiles, ATVs, go karts, mini bike AND MORE with a growing popularity.
Why use the green spring? Well you want to get up and go a little faster and get a higher top speed. Why would ANYONE go with a yellow spring? The cheap chinese torque converters have a low HP rating compared to Comet torque converters. These springs are comet springs, and usable in the cheaper torque converters. The reason you would want the yellow springs is if you have even greater horsepower you don't want to jam up your belts or skip them. The tighter yellow spring can help prevent skipping belts with higher horse power.
Torque converter belt slipping off road and you want to keep torque up but don't care as much about top speed? That's what your yellow is for! Green is top speed, looking at stage 1 kits or no stage kits.
Does this mean if you have a green spring in the forward position, the torque is the same as the yellow spring in the rear position? Just thinking if I went bigger on the jackshaft gear and kept that constant and changed out spring positions for off-road ca top speed on pavement. Thanks!
For me, I want it to be in lower gear for longer. It's difficult to buy a yellow spring here in canada, do you think, instead I could drill another hole to tension the green spring even more and that would work?
@@greggunninghamkite1079 Would probably only help a little. The yellow spring is thicker than the green.
After watching this video I installed the green spring just for fun. Hated it. The belt shift was way too soon. The belt shift at full throttle was around 400 RPM sooner than the yellow spring according to my tach. Just after that test I put the yellow spring back in.
When you buy the Torque Converter does it come with all 3 Springs or only the Red one ? I am getting ready to make the purchase but if it doesn't come with the Green Spring I will have to add that Green Spring to the Cart as well.
@@JNC1973 The inexpensive torque converters come with a red spring only. If you get a genuine Comet they come with the green spring.
I went to the yellow spring after watching your video. Much better response. The obnoxious "tech" ("I've worked here 25 years") I spoke to at Comet tried to tell me to use "only the middle hole" when I told him I wanted a better low speed response. He yells at me that I needed to change gearing if I wanted more torque and then hung up on me. I really believe he doesn't understand how tunable the driven pulley is. The stronger the spring, the wider the range of speed change you get from low to high.
Ok, comment number 2....this is a GREAT video and if I had the subscribers I would be sharing this all day on my channel. Thanks for being so intelligent, entertaining and encouraging. You are a very important part of the community and I hope people understand that.
Never knew there was so much tuning available to the torque converter system. Before I put the new cover on ours I noticed it all engage and shifted smoothly, so I didn’t give it much thought. May have to take it apart and inspect and see just where it is set. GREAT video!
Excellent explanation and demonstration. Now all I need to know is which torque converter will work on my Phatmoto Rover. Thank you!
Nice finally someone else who made a video on this subject. Everyone thinks of the motor but never the converter for more acceleration and performance. You can gain a lot just from tuning driver and driven. I found the yellow Is better for offroading bc it keeps the engine at a higher rpm in the low ratio making hills easier. the less tension you put on the driven it seemed to accelerate a tad harder depending on the engine and driver clutch stall speed. On my slower stage 1 196cc it helped with a looser driven spring and my tilly 212 seemed to accelerate better with the stiffer yellow one bc it helped with belt slip due to over powering the converter. The driver springs on my tilly ct200u made a massive increase in acceleration I picked the white springs which is a 3100 rpm engagement and it actually helped the engine over come the 10% overdrive giving me more top end speed. I didnt see a drastic difference in speed as you did with the different driven settings. but I believe you. I drilled 2 extra holes in my driven for more adjustment too. I found them to really make a difference in the bottom end and when you need a little more belt grip on a high hp engine.
Awesome assessment! I checked out your video too! Very nice! If you're snooping this comment thread go check out this guys video too!
@@megoingfast thanks man I honestly enjoy your content man keep up the good work. I'm trying to get a go pro to make my videos better like yours. Have a good one
I've taken apart two TC's (one brand new genuine, one import) and can't get the end cap off to change the spring on either. What's the trick?! It looks so easy in this video. Snap ring is off, tried prying and tapping but no dice. Please help
Completely new to MB's and their components, I've come across a few of your videos - thanks for the testing and explainers!
Did you know that if using a torque converter you can replace the rear spring loaded pulley with a non spring loaded pulley that is just a run of the mill pulley and use the front pulley as a clutch ? Yep. I wish I knew that 50 years ago, oh well...
No you can't because the belt would just get titer... your hilarious
You’ve made some excellent videos. We were hoping to see more. Hope you are doing well.
Thanks for covering this subject finally someone goes in depth into spring positioning. Nice briggs btw
I'd like to see you try the Aluminum weights with blue springs. I tried the white springs, great at first but they are longer for some reason and stretched out quickly. After messing with several different spring combos with no joy, I eventually went to the Juggernaut driver. Much better! It loves a high reving engine and requred no tuning. It shifts slower, so you might end up needing taller gearing to reach your desired top speed. But it is worth it. Stays cool too, much better for the belt!
Just added a green spring to my shopping cart haha, thanks for the video and the information!!!
There are also shift limited weights (sold as "speed reducing", but not so much on a governed engine) and shift limiting bushings to play with. Both will allow the engine to rev out and get into the power band of a modified engine.
That was supposed to be ungoverned engine.
Great video. I’m glad I have the green spring. My top speed is 53.4 mph so far.
What upgrades do you have and sprocket sizez
I hope you do an additional video of this one! I'd like to know more!
Best explanation of torque converter upgrades especially breaking down all springs and at each setting! This subject is so overlooked by alot of people and especially newbies! Well done..and I hope you had as much fun as I did installing the yellow spring on the 3rd hole...? Lol
That is THE reason I bought and recommended the larger snap ring pliers 😂
@@megoingfast were did you get those at?
Just got my green spring in from OMB warehouse, can't wait to install it.
This is great, I'm really beginning to enjoy your videos! Thanks so much for the content!
Im putting one on an old flat head briggs cant wait for it to get here.
When should a drive belt be replaced aside from if it is shredded and when how preload should one put on the spring if they are changing positions? Thanks again for these awesome vids!
You should post more videos on the rb200 👍🏼
Thanks for the video @9:05 I think you meant to say 'rear position'. I could be incorrect as i'm just learning these things.
Yes sir. I needed this! Great video as usual my friend! I got the Wild Cat 223 back together for a proper no governor test on the Trailmaster. I'm definitely changing that torque converter around.
Which scenario for quickest acceleration?
Thats based on your gear ratio not the torque converter
@Mxkuh ur wrong it's all about engagement speed with a torque converter yes gearing plays a big part but a tourqe converter is literally variable gear chaning what time and how fast it engages keeps the gearing shorter for longer Wich will make it have more take off
bro love the break down incredibly in depth your awesome
I sincerely can't thank you enough for testing the springs in different positions. Can you do a similar informational video about the Drive Pully?
I've seen some crazy looking drive pullys that don't look like the Chinese things... and their price is crazy. Some have rollers like what I am use to... but.. still confusing. Lol
I need to read a book or something.
Lol I didn't finish the video. I've been replaying the section with the springs and positions.
LC&S: Thank you Amanda. Sparkies Funhouse is actually... the only spot that gave me real information and elaborated on things. The community is actually awesome... I just wish I had a mentor help me and steer me away from horrible Chinese clones. Looks like as long as I don't do anything hard-core I can avoid catastrophic failure.
I had a question though... these Coleman and Walmart 212cc and 196cc engines.. I've noticed they are of better quality than the stuff I have... is it better to.. upgrade to better parts or just wait till it falls apart?
I would have liked it if u showed how u preloading it when putting it on
Awesome!! just what I needed to know!!
Thanks Stig!
Interesting tests! I wonder how much different it would be crawling slow up a steep hill in the woods between the different combos. When going really slow up a steep hill I can be turning 3500 RPM and going 5 mph on stock springs and 8t/60t, but going down a hill on pavement at 3500 RPM I might be going 30 MPH or more. Crazy how many variables there are in the system.
What you described there is belt shift or not. At 5 mph you are in low, at 30 the belt already shifted. These TAVs are pretty much 2 speed, a low and a high. There's not enough time spent in the middle of the pulleys.
For running up hills prior to the belt shift none of these springs would change performance. The yellow spring should keep the belt tighter. The yellow spring has the most tension and is pretty difficult to install. The green spring gets higher top speed here but the yellow or red would win in a drag race over the green spring. I have the green spring and never bothered to test with it. Genuine Comets come with the green spring.
@@Deucealive75 I don't think I'm getting the same gear reduction on my MB200-2 9t/60 as I am on my CT200U with a 9t/60t and TC. I'm think it might have something to do with belt length, or it could just feel like that because it's a heavier bike with less power. I'm probably going to cut off the jackshaft/ driven pulley shaft mount and install a regular TC on the MB. Something about the MB setup doesn't feel right. It uses a 725 belt and the pulleys are farther apart. Springs might help tun it but it also feel like the high end is too high after the belt shifts.
@@bwxmoto Hmmm. If what you are feeling is on take off check the difference if any in engagement RPM between the two bikes. Maybe the engagement RPM is too low on the MB?
I can't see the gearing being any different with a little more belt length.
And you are used to the 212's. They do have more torque and probably 3/4-1 HP more than the 196's once you start turning RPM. That's why I did a few things to my 196. I wanted 212 like power. The easy button would be a Tillotson and stage 1 kit governed to 5400 or so.
I think the heavier bike, less power may be the most likely thing going on there. I may be wrong. Did you stage 1 the 196 yet? Because in stock form the power is going to start it's nosedive earlier in the RPM range you are using.
@@Deucealive75 Yup I am still stock on the 196 on the trailmaster. And on the CT200U I have a stage one predator 212 hemi. So yeah that might be a lot of it right there! But I am going to do a stage one on the 196 and see how it goes.
And I also have a spare hemi predator 212 to throw on it if I need to or want to. I kind of want to keep lighting coils in that bike but that could change depending on how the stage 1 feels on the 196 J-Dong. It’s still way better up hills than stock though with just gearing change. 👍
Thanks! Now I understand my minibike torque converter! Dave
My build is a 26 inch bike, which will do 50 mph. To get there though it's as if something is winding out, as in, the converter will max out and I'll have to let off the throttle to 3000 rpm, then give it throttle again to get more miles per hour. I'll have to do that once or twice to get to 50 mph, almost as if I'm riding a manual transmission. Will this spring adjustment remedy this issue? Thanks.
I also ride my bike with no guard on the belt.
Left shoe is slowly getting shredded.
:)
Great video. Are you gonna do the weights/springs next to raise the rpm? Should take off faster and go faster right?
Go faster on that driver, not so much, take off faster possibly but matching torque numbers to engagement rpm springs on that platform won't be too valuable and put unneeded stress on the belt, as well that I may not be able to use the green springs as the belt may slip on take off. I am looking at other drivers at the moment that should help but these cheaper ones have limitations.
@@megoingfast Oh ok. Well, I'll be waitin to see what you come up with next.
Actually very helpful!!
Many thanks 🤠
Yo I'm doing "research" lol AND I have a predicament... When I had the 203590 belt I kept chewing up belts within an hour of riding and they would actually eject off TC BUT I would get a higher RPM (I could HEAR it and feel the speed lol). NOW I bought some 203589 belts, they fit great but it seems like I only max out around 3500rpm and I lost some of my top speed? Would that be because the belt was riding higher on the TC front driver??? I'm at a lose and just need answers lol.
Before with the 203590 I would easily reach 4000rpm.
what is your front/ back sprocket setup? It must be geared pretty high to do 50mph! great video. Also do you lubricate the copper idler ring or leave it dry?
dry
with the juggernaut taking longer im thinking the red sping in that position but to get overdrive faster wouldnt the yellow help more
Great video! Thanks for sharing
this answered all my questions . thank you so much!
Hey I like to go fast to bud awesome video
I'm your host, Amanda. This is what made me subscribe. Thank you for that
Were you able to capture the beginning of the shift point RPMs for these tests? Seems like it might at or before 3700 RPM for all tests but I can't tell without knowing the numbers before the 3700 RPM. At some point, I would expect RPM to sort of hold steady even as MPHs increase. This would be the time when the TC is shifting into overdrive (RPMs stay at 3700 but mphs increase from 37-43) Didn't appear the shift point RPM changed in the video, or maybe the "shift" begins before 3700 rpm(where you start sharing numbers). As I understand the springs... Red (chinese knockoff of Comet Green Spring, don't think comet makes a red) = begins to shift into overdrive at lowest RPM, Green = begins to shift to overdrive at middle RPM, Yellow = begins to shift to overdrive at highest RPM. And similar with the holes. 1st hole = begins to shift at lowest RPM, middle hole = begins to shift at middle RPM, third hole = begins to shift to overdrive at highest RPM. For tuning the CVT, I would try to use the springs and weights in the driver unit to set engagement RPM to peak TQ, then use the driven unit spring and hole selection to try to tune the beginning of the shift to the RPM where peak HP is made. Engage at peak TQ, accelerate in lower gear until peak HP is reached, then maintain peak HP RPM as the CVT shifts into highest gear and you increase speed. After the CVT fully shifts out, RPMs might begin to climb again and speed would continue to increase (with the RPMs) if you have enough power available post shift out. I can sort of get an idea of where the shift happens. Seems from the videos that the first two tests where still shifting around 3700 RPM, but cant tell what RPM the shift begins at from the video.
You either need to adjust that middle piece where the chain and belt are both on, pull it back away ffrom the engine to tighten the belt which will keep it from being damaged like the first one and then pull the rear axle back aswell to tighten the chain. This will maximize efficiency and performance of your bike. I wonder what its like to replace the rear chain and sprocket with custom pulleys and belt 🤔 maybe its worth trying 🤠🤘
That's crazy because I have the red spring 3rd hole hitting 47 mph with 40tooth rear sprocket
Thanks for the lesson. Explains alot.
So do the different springs and positions just change top speed or do they also change acceleration?
Excellent video……Amanda
Great input 👍😊
Thanks 👍
Assuming the yellow at lowest position would give you the most torque down low?
I’m new to these but my front pulley is staying small the whole time after a couple rides. What could cause that? It used to grow with rpm like yours does
How tight does the nut have to be on the converter? Did I miss that in the video?
I’m sure u did but did you happen to take out the governor
Yes. However, at that rpm range governor wouldn't kick in any way.
Which one for the quickest off the line without wheeling
Thanks for the information 👍
What size snap ring pliers are those Craftsman ones? The ones I have are 6.5" amd do not open wide enough for that snap ring. Thanks in advance.
I have a predator 212 with a governor delete and when I floor it it drinks a lot. It goes accelerates and accelerates really hard and brakes belts all the time
I'm looking for recommendations. I swapped up my golf cart with a 224, after about 100 donuts , it ate the Belt. It had a little bit of a delay on take off like the torque was late to engage. Any recommendations. ?
Great video and info
What gear and sprocket are you running in this video?
Does this mean the yellow spring in the most forward position will have the most torque and less top speed???
Does the testing also apply to the juggernaut driver since it does not go into overdrive?
I have a 17 hp 6500 rpm tillotson 225rs can you recommend spring position and spring color for this engine please.
Right on, thanks brother
Red in the rear, got it😂
Hey, I have a B200 and wondering if I could pick your brain. Behind my front sprocket I believe to have lost a ball bearing. I’m wondering if this is safe to run or if I should ensure no use until I have a new bearing in place?
So what spring/position for the most low end torque?
man its sounds like the engine isnt even in its powerband like its not revving up high enough
If you rotate the driven pulley, in the comet pully it is noted at 1,2 and 3. If I understand this diagram correctly 1 is the fastest and 3 provides to most torque. Is this correct?
I like your channel I subscribed
I bought a juggernaut . And jumped ahead of my build I dont have a mounting plate like yours it had a jackshaft before . What else do I need to buy I think it's called a tav? Please help.
torque converter or 30 series cvt
Which spring makes the 30 series torque converter grab the belt the hardest?
I have a Coleman go kart with a belt slipping issue. The belt is new it has the original red primary clutch spring in it in the original position. The issue I’m having is at mid-RPM or high rpm, the go cart struggles to fully engage the main drive pulley completely. Like not putting enough pressure on belt. What would I need to do to overcome that? Heavier weights, stiffer Springs, or less stiffer Springs in the drive, pulley? Thanks
What happens if you do not set the preload for the spring in the torque converter?
I have a question bro I tried watching your hand but when running a torque converter, when you pull the throttle you don't instantly accelerate right away, is this naturally true? Is that what engagement RPM is?
Edit: Also not using a cover with torque converter with cover is VERY dangerous.
I had high tops on and if I wouldn't have I would have had a horrible gash, deep to my Achilles heel.
Yes, yes, true, always keep the cover on.
Great video
Hello, what engine do you use for that project?
what exhaust are you running??
Exactly what type of drill are you using
What spring is good for slow speed with 25 gallon sprayer tank mounted on tilt bed on my 2 wheel drive side x side for spraying lawn fertilizer and weed control?
What did you do for a front brake on the Coleman?
Okay, but how does everyone get the driven pulley bolt off??? Mines stuck using an impact and holding the disk break
hi, I also fitted the same kit, when I walk 2 km I touch the belt and it overheats why?? yours is the same i.e. does it overheat??? or is it normal??
where do I order the green spring? ive been looking and cant find it. thanks
Amazon
Great video your great,keep it up.
Which would you use for racing mini’s? Quick out of turns and passing power on straights.
Depends on gearing, but pretty much red spring last hole on the right. That is a very generalized statement, so hard to give a full take without being there to gauge full setup. The last hole in most cases that meet conditions in this video allows for faster acceleration but still a stronger hold on bumps to prevent slip. There are far too many factors I'd have to see the bike, but if you bike was setup exactly like mine with a new belt , for racing I'd do red on last.
The yellow spring is the stiffness one u can get the green is oem... so that makes no sense.... I run the yellow but I also have a fully tuned up engine
My torque converter belt is beating the heck out of the inside of my torque converter cover. Everything seems to be installed properly and the minibike is very fast , I can just hear that belt whipping around against the inside of the cover.
Thanks
Any advice on why and how to fix it ?
It sounds like the chain is hitting the cover cut out...maybe...see if the cover needs to be widened around the chain !!
i took the nut/washer/circlip off and the clutch won’t come apart. what am i doing wrong
When I put the spacers on the torque converter the bolt to hold it on barely tightens is it fine or what should I do
I have a unique situation going on here that I'm thinking about using a torque converter in a slightly different way. I'm putting a 5-speed ATV engine in a golf cart and want to use this style torque converter to get more range out of each gear in the ATV engine. My question is, can I adjust the drive pulley to always grab at zero RPM or close to that? Since the engine has a centrifugal clutch, I won't require any belt slip at idle and would honestly not want any. I don't know where else to ask this type of question...
The overall answer is yes. Some drive pulley distances can be changed, but typically not on a set plate that has a welded or cast jack shaft. If you can move the drive pulley by changing engine location or driven pulley then that's easy. However, there are also different belt sizes, smaller, that could accomplish this as well. Note that belts will slightly stretch over time. Some snow throwers, for example, do what you want to do by using a tensioner on the belt.
Question, Amanda....lol. Yer dog 3203 with juggernaut, 30 series comet driven pulley, tillotson 212r 60t axle sprocket and 10t jack shaft sprocket. If I went to a 14t on the jack shaft and green spring in the first position would that be best for off-road and top speed? I changed the jack shaft to a 9t and it ran so fast to top end rpm and topped out at 30 with a ridiculous amount of torque. Would love to hit 40-45 and still have a strong amount of torque to run in sand. Thanks for your assistance as I have been trying to tune these and learn as I go, but god it can be expensive with different types of sprockets.
To go from 30 to 40 you need gearing change still. You could slip too much on the belt green spring alone. Gotta focus more on gearing keeping spring center position then tune after getting where wanted with belt running good.
@@megoingfast great advise, back to stock start from center, make gearing change and then spring. Thanks! Soft sand is hard to gear to for top end and high torque for these 212’s...especially for a novice like me. I shared your video on a Facebook group of yerf dog go karts and buggies and have been getting a lot of likes! Hopefully you will get more viewers and subs. Keep these awesome videos coming and have a great day!
Where do u purchase these springs?
Where could I find different springs and weights for the driver pulley? I would like to get a lower rpm engagement out of my driver pulley on my mini bike.
eBay/ amazon
If I have stage 2 what's spring should I get and know if the belt wont be to Close to get off the clutch or however at top speed the clutch gone a be to hot for the belt any tips
So if my bikes drive pulley engages at all times even when idling I need tighter springs in the drive pulley?
Maybe the idle is too high?
Hi quick question do these cvts lose speed as the belt wears and rips?
They can, yes, as the belt stretches and does not get fully pulled into the driven pulley.
@@megoingfast how long does it take for that to happen
Your host a man dah lmao 🤣
What is the green spring ?
Where did you buy the springs?
Could you send me a link?
Since weeks I am searching for a ccw spring and don't find a shop selling them...
Best regards
www.ombwarehouse.com/green-spring-for-tav-driven.html