The Commander Ban List Debate! | Commander Clash Podcast #5
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ค. 2024
- The crew gives their takes on the official Commander ban list, including the RC's reasonings behind them.
Here's the document we're using: www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.ph...
This video is brought to you by Card Kingdom! Support the show by buying stuff at www.cardkingdom.com/mtggoldfish
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0:00 Intro
3:01 RC Philosophy
11:06 Power 8
24:11 Chaos Orb & Falling Star
25:19 Sharazad
27:36 Channel
31:35 Tolarian Academy
35:45 Fastbond
38:14 Paradox Engine
43:57 Time Vault
44:58 Panoptic Mirror
48:20 Tinker
52:21 Balance
57:09 Limited Resources
1:00:38 Worldfire
1:04:24 Upheaval
1:09:26 Sway of the Stars
1:15:26 Clashmail - เกม
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Here's the document we're using: www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=17
Got a question you want answered in a podcast? Tweet us #clashmail and we might answer you in a future episode!
Sir, this is a Wendy’s
Tomer, there is Balancing Act as a Balance version.
p9 banning's were never banned for accessibility reasons they were banned to differentiate the format from legacy/ vintage. Since twister was not really played in legacy/ vintage it was not banned
as a cEDH player, i must say tomer, i appreciate you man.
Rot Wolf being used for missing/hidden things might be my favorite running gag for Goldfish
btw What is the origin of Rot Wolf?
I've been watching Goldfish for like four or five years, but never got it. ^^
They should build a deck with a bunch of Clones and ways to tutor Rot Wolf. I finally actually want to see someone get beat up by a bunch of Rot Wolves.
@@ComfyDents I believe it was a game where someone's hand wasn't recorded and an infect theme or win ended up being a big part of the victory. And also just Jen bringing those high power types of cards (being infect, not necessarily rot wolf itself)
"Hello, everyone, it's Crim, probably better known as Rot Wolf."
To be fair, if anyone would bring infect to the table, it would be Crim lol
Seth looks like he’s about to start a cult and take over a large county in rural Montana.
Hello, it's Seth, proooobably better known as the True Messiah
KEEP YOUR RIFLE BY YOUR SIDE!
YOURE IN OVER YOUR DEPTH, DONNIE!
It is amazing that the episode where we can't seek Crim everyone decides to talk about how Crim looks.
Shah-ra-zad, funny enough Sheldon is local to the area I live in. The weekend before shahrazad was banned he was at a local shop and played in a pod with a buddy of mine that the decks entire goal was cast shahrazad and forked it as many times as he could so everyone had to play a dozen games. Sheldon asked him how his deck won and his answer was "it doesn't, I want to play the longest game of edh until the boys and I feel like going home."
Guess I should never tell Sheldon that my mono White usually wins by everyone else giving up. Using nothing but old school and underpowered mono white cards.
couldnt everyone just mass concede? its just half your lifepoints
Seth probably better know as "Seth probably better known as saffron olive"
Seth probably better known as "Seth probably better known as "Seth probably better known as saffron olive" "
Seth probably better known as "Hello everyone, it's Seth, probably better known as SaffronOlive, and its time"
@@InsertCleverNameHere0 Tiiiiiiime
"Another controversial topic" Aren't those the ones that are the most interesting to discuss? No point in discussing things everyone agrees on. Love the podcast, keep it up.
Is that The Dude in the upper left corner?
Close enough.
I like how Richard wants everything unbanned to make his Birds deck even more oppressive
The card art in the center stays as Channel during the Tolarion Academy and Fastbond sections.
richard be like "just get rid of the ban list, all the cards are the same and inconsistent, rules committee grrr"
So crims was eaten by Thor? Also those glasses make Seth look like a shady music label owner.
Just say what we're really all thinking and get it over with: 70s porn director.
he is channeling his inner Walter! (Big Lebowski reference)
can we have a tour in richards garage? i really wanna see his car under 1000 of playmats
100k sub goal?
Even if we buy all the playmats, he'd have to get rid of the cupboards (keeping the dust off the mats) now!!! How much for the scoops branded cupboards?! I need one
43:32 Seth complaining commander games are too long is pretty ironic considering all he wants to do is draw cards.
Pretty sure at this point the game should be called Magic the Controversial decision instead of Magic the Gathering
I feel like they kind of ignored a big argument for why limited resources is banned, that because it's multiplayer, there's going to be 10 lands in play a lot faster than a 2 player game, and the comparison they made to winter orb or static orb is completely different, because those allow you to still play the lands, it just makes it go slower.
Well put. Winter orb and Stasis are not the same thing as L.R.
Seth's eyes when Richard said that Balance was a fair card. Lol
“I want to see a version of balance that isn’t bad”
Restore Balance: :(
I'm running Restore Balance in Vadrok. Seems pretty good for me!
@@PalPlays got a list up online? Just finished my vadrok deck and its an elemental flying tribal deck with some noncreature recursion, mostly value enchantments, whirlwind o thought, tribal ench that makes 4 4 flyers, sharknado, some cheap removal and can trips. The deck essentially wants to use the two pride of the clouds to make a big board of fliers an beat down while using the counter that has you return a permanent to your hand as controll while bouncing vadrok. The spiciest thing in my deck is the mutate Phoenix makes artifacts with arcane adaptation naming Phoenix means you could stack up those inconspicuous artifacts then suprise arcane adaptation spend 7 mana recur all my fliers including revilark vesperlark dawn elemental storm entity, elemental whale, wonder and cavalier of flame to give everything haste and pump.
Restore Balance is still pretty bad, though, unless you can cascade into it. Having your wrath effect and ability to even out lands and cards on hold for 6 turns means you're more likely to be killed by your opponents for having it on suspend before it resolves.
Seth proooooooobably better known as Hunter S. Thompson.
Nice shades!
"this is Dirge Bat country"
Resolving a thousand-year stormed Shahrazad is basically what happens when MTGO crashes. Imagine MTGO handling that spell, good lord...
I would disagree that paradox engine isn’t good enough in 2021. I can’t think of any other turn 2/3 one card combos, even with recent power creep.
Paradox Engine isn't a one card combo. It pretty close in Sisay and Arcum, but the require extra cards.
Cereal with Fluids should be banned in commander for its absurd abilities, but I would just Rule 0 for Fluid Tribal.
My playgroup did a no-banlist proxy game. I casted shahrazad, and was able to copy it 4 times, then used narsets reversal to return it to my hand. The card is the most amazing mistake in all of magic
Tinkering into Bolas's Citadel can just win the game on turn one
Pretty sure tinker is the most powerful card on the banlist including the power 9 no cap
This is actually the card you're supposed to tinker in 2021
I love Richard but his takes on balance and academy worries me about his card assessment. He said is balance that much better than wrath? He also compared Armageddon to balance. Like he’s obviously never played with balance card is one of my favorites lol
Seth says about the dexterity cards, that if you want to play them, ask your playgroup to rule zero them in, but as a general rule should be banned. This is seriously the base criteria the entire banlist should follow. Kitchen table requires no real banlist. The general banlist should be for playing with people outside your playgroup, where you can't make on the spot rule zeros.
Loving this Commander Podcast. Thank you for all the hard work you guys do. It’s why you are my favorite Magic Creators,
The panoptic mirror combo is only 5 mana because you can exile a spell in response to the upkeep trigger.
Very upset with the editor not putting a Charizard over the card at 25:59
Man, Crim’s dog is looking a little pale, did he get a weird cut at the groomers?
it also looks rather hungry
I feel like rule 0 is a bad excuse because it just doesnt work when you play at a gamestore which I often did before the pandemic
You're right, and this is exactly the reason there is a need for a banlist. If you play with random people it's nice to know that you share a vision on how a format should be played.
Seth rocking the "Walter Sobchak" look. I dig it.
Shut up Donny.
1:13:30 It was at this moment I realized they had been talking about Darksteel Colossus all the time, not Blightsteel. Everything makes so much more sense now.
Sharazad also gets weird with glittering wish. Cards in the main game are "outside the game" so you can do some weird things.
Okay but those effects don't work in Commander.
I think funnily enough just blanket banning the whole reserve list would actually do a lot to drive the RL’s price down, especially on garbage cards like skeleton ship
It’s really funny watching Seth talk at the end of the video, then rewinding back to him talking about paradox engine.. lol
1:11:11 It is worth noting that because Sway the Stars does not actually reset the game but only shuffles hand grave and battlefield away, it is possible to break the symmetry with floating mana and/or exiled cards such as with Suspend or Foretell. Jhoira of the Ghitu would love to use Sway the Stars as an instant win button for example. I agree that the ban is kind of silly considering how many instant game winning cards are already legal, but the card is not entirely useless as you guys thought.
Also teferi's protection
Ahhhh yes, my favorite CC member, Rot Wolf
Richard arguing for Tolarian Academy like he doesn't believe Urza exists
nazis put 88 in their usernames to tell other nazis that they're a nazi
For how a Shahrazad game works out, I'll happily refer to the Wedge vs. Cameron match during the Unstable Pre-Prerelease.
Please update the cards being displayed more often!
The whole podcast forgetting paradox engine also works with mana dorks
Another great show and great discussion! (Although, the video makes it seem like you discussed Channel for the majority of the show... minor OCD editing detail lol)
Worldfire is like:
"Let's just forget our past 1,5hour+ happened and just see who draw lands and cast a dork first"
worldfire, upheaval and sway of the stars would immediately go into jhoira decks. they become almost certain wins in them.
@@hopposai787 I believe that they are too focused on the cards that would win, not the cards that would make everyone miserable. Even if you can't take profit of a Worldfire, it is a hard reset on a long game that made everyone efforts until now useless.
How is world fire + floating mana to cast the commander different than any infinite combo for the win?
Once infinite the game state rarely matters. The things that disrupt a combo tend to also be able to disrupt world fire.
@@timbombadil4046 There is no difference, but the thing is if resolution is, in fact, disrupted.
If Thassa's Oracle / Dark Consultation for example is disrupted but the other is not, the effect is ok. The same is usual to any other combo.
If Worldfire alone is not disrupted, it simply resets the whole game and EVERY thing that happened until now is completely USELESS.
People think that there are no players that would cast a Worldfire just for the lolz, but they would, they definetly would.
@@gustavomartinsdesouza5548 Then the problem is the players, not the card. The solution isn't to ban WF but find opponents not keen on wasting everyone's time.
Seth's face at 55:15 when Richard confessed he thinks Balance is fine! That was my reaction too. Think about what a disaster things would be! 🤯
You might be right with the Eldrazi and Channel. Rise of the Eldrazi was released April 2010 and Channel was banned June 2010.
Sway the stars in a jank birds deck feels like a great way to help aggro come back after turn 10+
The best thing to find with Tinker is certainly Bolass's Citadel, which probably plays into the Paradox engine problem of a turn taking too long.
I love your unbans. I'm putting that Worldfire on a Panoptic Mirror xD
My view as to why there are inconsistencies is also the density of options.
The glasses.on Seth is clearly an intimidation factor to the Rules.committee to ban sol ring 😂😂
Great vid.guys!
At this.point with the banlist I kinda.just feel like instant nothing banned
A better example for Tinker lies in something like Tinker for Bolas' Citadel. This is now a fairly consistent turn 2 ir 3 kill (throw aetherflux reservoir in as your win con and build a deck consisting of top deck manipulation, tutors for tinker, and mana rocks)
"Here's another one that's pretty easy to stay banned" -Tomer as he pulls up the now-unbanned worldfire. Even though the discussion turned to '9 mana basically means you can do whatever', that was still funny to hear.
love this debate, very nice episode. RIchard is so on point with the consistency issues.
wish wotc was a little bit rational on their reasoning, but no indication that would happen anytime soon.
The Dude and Rot Wolf are part of CC now? That's pretty cool.
They kept saying paradox engine would not be put in any green deck but i had it in my seton storm deck it untaps mana dorks aswell
Tinker into Bolas' Citadel sounds like a terrifying turn one.
for the pengine argument, like ad nauseam has the exect same effect where you need to wait and it takes forever
It'd be really interesting to hear your take on whether or not cards could be unbanned or banned more easily if there wasn't historical precedence. There definitely feels like there are some cards legal today that are more broken and "unfun" than cards on the banned list today, but there seems to be more resistance to change
Fastbond + Bolas' Citadel would be my dream combo of dying by getting greedy.
I would totally buy a scoop onsie
I like how Crim plays Fierce Guardianship, probably the most unbalanced card for this format, and talks about unbalanced things. Never change.
Crim is super biased but I still love him lol
In my best Picard impersonation, Thousand Year Storm plus Shah-Harizad, "Make it so".
Because when you have to use rift in a defensive position or someone has deck that easily gets around rift. You can definitely still overload rift and still lose
The thing about Shahrazad (the word) is that it came to English from Arabic via multiple different routes. Magic uses a transcription that is pretty direct, but another well known one is Scheherazade, which is a German language spelling, since one of the first Western translations of One Thousand and One Nights was in German and this served as the basis for western art based on the fairy tales, such as Rimsky-Korsakov's celebrated orchestral suite.
Therefore a lot of English speakers became accustomed to a four-syllable pronunciation based on that 'Germanicized' spelling, even though the name on the card is clearly a three syllable word.
I thought it said 'The Commander Ban List UP-bate' and was like "A change in the Ban List?! Uh no!" Glad that's not what this video is about haha!
This wa s alot of fun! Thx
in potential defense of Time Vault not being banned until 2008: if memory serves, that would be around the time they reversed the power level errata that made it so that the card only worked using its own ability to untap it because they had changed it to adding a specific type of counter to the card when you skipped a turn to untap it and that counter was removed as part of the cost to take an extra turn
Love the big lebowski glasses seth
I had balance in a deck cause my play group didn't know it was banned when I first started playing commander and it was totally fine, but that may be because I didn't know enough to try and break it. All it was was a way to balance the green ramp and blue card draw.
Congrats on getting rot wolf for this EP!
I once had a game where I was playing Slivers and someone cast cyclonic rift when I entered combat. I had the flash sliver in hand so I floated all my mana picked up my team and then recast them with flash and still killed the table
This is post 2021 magic. We tinker for Bolas' Citadel now boyz
Co-signing that proxying is free, and you can actually play any expensive cards you want any time you want.
I think Sway of the Stars is a fine unban, but I've played against too many Jhoira decks to ever want Worldfire unbanned.
I've overloaded cyclonic rift twice to live and narset wheeled and lost because a kenrith player kept casting kenrith and gave all the other creatures haste. Then I died.
Surprised Bolas's Citadel wasn't brought up during the Tinker discussion. With 40 life I seldom see games last another turn after that card enters play.
My first thought exactly when they brought tinker up. I watch too much Numot I suppose. 😂
I have a kid on the way in August and would definitely but a scoops onesie for it.
there should be a part 2 that covers Coalition Victory and Biorythm
Panoptic Mirror plus Silence or Orim's Chant can be a much more mana efficient if less deterministic lock (on one opponent).
Tinker into Blightsteel Colossus without BSC would probably turn into Tinker/Bolas's Citadel (or Myr Battlesphere) which would also make people salty and take longer.
I want to see the episode of commander clash with no ban list.
sick shades my guy.
Idea for topic in the future. Proxys and how to deal with powercreep and degenerate decks. Like running cradle, mana crypt etc in all decks that could run it.
Loving Seth's shades vibe
An excellent, enjoyable discussion. For part 2:
Richard: I felt that many of your comments were that the card in question should remain banned (I assume) but similar cards should also be banned, for example the Tolarian Academy discussion diversion into Gaea's Cradle, or Balance and Armageddon, or Upheaval and Cyclonic Rift.
Tomer: I think that you should be the impartial announcer who reads the card and the rules committee position. Then, state 'those are the facts, now my opinion: All Deans should be banned' (or whatever).
Crim: can we hear more of you, please. Perhaps when your Computer is repaired/replaced. I found your points better the calmer you spoke.
Seth OPKBASO: Nice shades. Maybe for part 3 a serious discussion on why generic cards like Sol Ring should be banned. I personally would love to see deck-independent ubiquitous cards like Sol Ring, Arcane Signet and Jeweled Lotus banned.
All: You should be proud of yourselves for this quality of content. So enjoyable.
The problem with balance is: 1, you can't normally juke your way out, either you can't sacrifice permanents or you casted teferi's protection, 2, you can play artifacts that generates mana(and will not be sacrificed) and enchantments, só if you can play mind's eye or you keep mind 's eye in your opening hard(any form of card draw even) you are so ahead that everyone would convede because you can do nothing if you are outside of blue
You're undervalued the obnoxious but not auto win sorceress you can put on P Mirror. Armageddon, Ruination, Board Wipes, Extra Turns, Control Magic Effects, it is just an obnoxious card, not a too powerful one.
Ornithopter, and memnite are both also artifacts. Sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault however are not creatures. That's why academy is better than cradle.
Just to prove the point. Now we need the ‘no banking Edh’ CC pod. You guys could easily play 4 games in under 2 hours
It’s easy to keep someone instantly winning when casting cyclonic rift. Teferi’s Protection, reverberate, narsets reversal
"how can anyone lose after casting an overloaded cyclonic rift"
Well, you see, I managed to kill everyone at my table with my Winota deck, a single turn after someone had cast overloaded cyclonic rift. It's funny how Cyclonic Rift is actually less damaging to me with Winota, compared to board wipes. I literally just cast Winota and Loyal Apprentice from my hand the next turn, then got my Auratouched Mage from the Thopter, to which I searched my library for a Breath of Fury and then attached it to him. Next thing you know, I'm going in an infinite extra-combat loop against people with litteraly no defenses.
Would love a contest with a chance to participate in one of these. Could even do a charity event or help your store by allowing anyone who donated to be entered to engage with you all.
None of you Tinker into Bolas' Citadel? Seems way juicier than Possessed Portal or Blightsteel Colossus, works great with Fastbond :D
What would you tutor with tinker? Bolas's citadel. Bolas's citadel only sees play in no-banlist cEDH because you can tutor it with tinker..... and it's crazy powerful.
I play Decree of annihilation in my Golos deck. you just need to exile 2 or 3 cards with golos, then cast the annihilation, and after that, you cast the exiled cards. Opponents cannot recover from that. Just imagine that same Golos deck with an upheaval, sway of the stars and worldfire!! A lot of decks can play around those cards nowadays by exiling cards and let you cast them later for free.
I would love to see a future episode on potential bans for EDH (cyclonic rift, sol ring, mana crypt, etc.) Cards that at least one person in the group thinks should be banned.
On the Tolarian Academy section:
I personally think that creature decks are more powerful than artifact decks at the moment. Cradle lets you get payoffs for playing stax pieces or dorks that you would already run. There are only like 5-7 mana producing artifacts that are legal that you can even drop on turn 0 (mana vault and sol ring are 1 cmc, meaning you cannot cast them turn 1 with academy in play unless you draw another cheerio mana source along with them), where as there are TONS of creatures that you're already playing, giving cradle essentially no opportunity cost.
Academy, in order to be powerful, requires the stars to align. You need at least one 0-cmc artifact for it to even tap for mana on turn 1. In order to add "double digit" mana on turn one, you would need mana crypt, sol ring, and two other cheerio moxen (and this even counts the mana you spend to cast sol ring, since after casting it you would only be able to make 9 mana). Unless one of them is mox opal or mana vault, you've now used all 7 cards in your hand including the academy; vault or opal leaving only one card left in hand. This hand would already produce insane mana without academy. Maybe that one card in hand is a windfall or timetwister, but at this point we're quite literally asking for the perfect 7 card hand. Outside of decks like Urza that can already make use of terrible cheerio artifacts that other decks don't run (darksteel ingot, welding jar, Mishra's/Urza's/Lodestone Bauble, the cheerio artifact creatures, etc.), most decks wouldn't risk running cards that are completely dead, or very sub-optimal, without this 1 in 99 Tolarian Academy.
When it happens, yes, academy is more explosive, but the card will be less useful more often than not in comparison to cradle. As I said before, the one exception to this is artifact decks that are already running a ton of weak, low cmc artifacts, like Urza or Emry. Academy would help these decks a lot. Cradle should be played in basically every deck with green in it, whereas I don't think academy should be played in every deck with blue in it. Academy has a higher opportunity cost in your deck building, meaning I believe it is the weaker of the two, specifically in commander. If you're allowed to run multiple of the moxen in a 60 card deck, the consistency and opportunity cost of the card drops significantly.
There are also a lot of nonbasic land destruction/hate cards that have come out, alongside the standard issue blood moon/magus of the moon cards, so the chances that this thing sticks on board is becoming less and less likely, not to mention the fact that players will probably start running strip mine and wasteland again if this card got unbanned.
I had thought they banned panoptic mirror because of the costless spells like Restore Balance.
No one mentioned Bolas' Citadel during the Tinker conversation?
Surely bolas' citadel is the best thing to get off tinker. Although I'm probably biased after playing far too much vintage cube