Top 10 Commander Cards From 2021 | Commander Clash Podcast #25
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
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WOW Peeking at the list, I can't help but make some comments here:
- Ragavan voted D by Richard, and C by Seth... some explanation are needed here.... this card is just NUTS... looks like you guys need to try including more in your deck and/or haven't played against it.... Ignoble Hierarch is ranked #8 and Ragavan is like #35/36????????? Ragavan is ramp + card advantage...
- Not a single mention of the set of "slow lands" which are just fantastic for commander; they deserved at least an "honorable/special mention" at the beginning to acknowledge their existence.
- I perso think Wandering Archaic is an underrated card; this card should def be in your top 40.
- Same for Liquidmetal Torque, this card is way underrated; it for example gives red the ability to deal with any permanent.
- Finally where are Inkshield or Stingy Study in your list???? If the CMC of your commander is 4+ and covers black, you owe to yourself to run Stingy Study...
@@kandjar this is commander
@@helloyou5549 ah yes, the floor is made of floor
⁰0
Richard called it on secret rendezvous.
I’m with Seth on the dauthi voidwalker. Basically every deck interacts with their graveyard in some way. Plus no one is going to stop playing spells to prevent you from potentially using them. If they do then it’s 2 mana they don’t make optimal plays for the rest of the game, that’s just not going to happen. At any stage in the game the sacrifice effect is good. Sac it to use a fetch land, a tutor, board wipe, whatever. It’s not even susceptible to removal, assuming it doesn’t have summoning sickness you just sack it in response and grab the best available option at which point it’s like a 2 for 1. It’s so disruptive and versatile in almost every game. And that doesn’t even take into consideration some of its other upsides. Unblockable creature if you need, an easy reanimate target since it’s a creature, list goes on and on.
Dauthi most def is an S
Absolutely. Rich, Crim and even Tomer are cringe for not immediately slamming this into S. There is no downside to this creature in commander.
agree. even without the activated ability its still a 2 mana 3/2 creature with evasion and graveyard hate.
@@darkseeker1112 The slight (slight is too large but couldn't think of any different word) downside is that it cant block. Which Richard is overrating because of his playstyle. Crim and Tomer, I don't even understand, especially tomer, because at least crim has a reputation to uphold on hating creatures lol.
I feel like they did not read the 'from anywhere' part of the graveyard hate. Shuts down soooooo much more, Daretti's 'Plus' ability being the first to come to mind.
I think Richard is right about Secret Rendezvous. Helping the right opponent survive keeps the pressure off of yourself. Especailly if there is someone with a one hit kill at the table.
I honestly still play Oblation because of the politics and in a pinch I can use it as a village rites.
I've never seen a game where secret rendezvous was cast and the person who got the free cards didn't win the game.
The gang trashing on Richard for liking Secret Rendezvous a couple episodes after they talk about how incredible of a political player he is and how he can get them to do anything in a game is pretty funny. I think that card should be viewed as "3 mana: draw 3 cards and force target player to be your ally for a few turns" and then its kinda bonkers.
Back before Hullbreecher was banned, that card read "draw three cards and make three treasures." It was basically a free spell with Hullbreacher in play. Notion Thief makes it say "draw six cards, become the archenemy."
@@BadCookies1234 now to be fair if you’re playing either of those colours you have better draw options. I’m really deliberating slotting rendezvous in to try it out.
If it convinces I’ll buy a stack and wait for others to recognize Richard’s genius
I've never seen him win because of a Secret Rendezvous. A part of why his politics work in the first place is because of the others self destructive tendencies. I don't think it's awful like the others but I don't think it's nearly as good as Richard thinks, it's still just spending mana to help other players as much as you help yourself.
@@Spaced92 Someone always is the archenemy. If you are the Archenemy and coming down off the throne, you boost the last player to stall the game long enough to rebuild. If you are clearly archenemy and moving to a win, like in the new years resolution episode, then you set it in hand and wait for if they take you down or run out of gas. If you aren't the Archenemy the behind player can help the table reach parody. if you are the behind player use it to push either 2nd or 3rd into a position to contest 1st and sandbag to cleanup.
@@Spaced92 It doesn't help others as much as yourself; it helps them more. You spend a card and gain three for a net of +2 cards whereas the player you target nets +3. The card also basically doesn't work if you're already in the lead.
I'm actually coming around to Richards logic on Secret Rendezvous. He's basically saying that thinking about it as "I get 3 you get 3 is wrong". Since it's not your 7 cards vs their 7. It's your 7 vs their 21. Which totally changes the ratio of the value of card drawing. He's basically saying that drawing three cards improves his hand x3 more than the collective table drawing 3 cards, as a ratio of total cards. Meaning it averages out to, you draw three and each other person draws one. Now a 3 mana I draw 3 they draw 1 sounds a lot more playable. But it's even better than that because you control who those 3 cards go to. That means that you not only gain political leverage but also help ensure they go to the person who has the worst chance of leveraging them against you.
Now, with that logic in mind, you can sort of see why he views it more in line with a compulsive research. It's a 3 mana sorcery that lets you see 3 cards and generally puts you up a card (on average) and which might have more upsides depending on your deck. Now is CR worthy of an "A" grade, probably not, but if it was a mono-white card it sure has heck would.
I think Richard has convinced me to at least give it a try.
It's really close to the logic with arcane denial, which people abhorred for years, before it was discovered to be actually one of the best counterspells in EDH. I'm still a bit iffy on Rendezvous, but I acknowledge that it's the same iffyness i felt with Denial, before experiencing it's strength.
Another way to put it, although much more vague, is that Richard is actually looking at its value in a 1v1v1v1 setting where as everyone else is looking at its value in a 1v1 setting
Richard is so right about the card, is has huge upside; the only downside is not using it as a tool for favor
You also use a card and mana, so it’s closer to “I go down 3 mana and +2, the table goes +3”
I'm on board with that 10% chance that Richard is actually a visionary, card-evaluating genius.
Re-Secret Rendezvous: What would Seth do for three cards? The value of this card imo is what you can get from the opponent that gets these cards. This can easily turn into a bidding war where the caster always wins. I'm with Richard on that card.
Has Secret Rendezvous ever been cast on Commander Clash?
Secret Rendezvous oracle text essentially: “You and target players become allies and each draw three cards. Creatures that player control can’t attack you for two turns. Whenever that player casts a spell with a target, persuade the player you drew three cards to change targets. If you win the persuasion change the targets of that spell to the target of your choice.”
I agree with Richard as well. This card has so much political value that it can't be quantified. But you can also do scummy things with it. Add a notion thief and it's 3 mana draw 6. Narset makes it even less symmetrical.
Secret Rendezvous is also good with Smothering Tithe and taxing effects generally that makes using the cards harder as well as mass bounce.
I really like the Mastery cycle for the reasons Richard likes Rendezvous. I love keeping the table competitive with each other. Ingenious Mastery is like a better Rende. You get a good effect and your opponent gets a less good effect, and there's another mode for when you're down to 1v1 Magic. With Rende, your opponent gets the good effect, and you get the less good effect. So there's a certain point in the game where you can't play the card because you're down to one opponent and the context of the card switches.
Richard is not wrong about why it's pretty solid, but I wouldn't give it an A
Secret Rendezous is the card draw version of scheming symmetry. Political points are so underrated. Seth and tomer what would you do for Richard to let you draw three? Crim, what would you do to stop them from getting the three cards? Attack an opponent? Remove a threat? Wrath the board? Stop attacking them? Everyone jokes on the card until someone casts it and doesn’t target you. If any player casts this and doesn’t target you lose a lot of traction at the table. Preach Richard.
Agree! If white gets more tax effects like smothering tithe then the downside almost becomes non-existent. things like ig you Narset first, or if there is another hulbreacher these cards keep getting better.
You can negotiate for what sort of card they’ll get with Symmetry. “If I let you fetch board wipe will you do it” kind of deal. The draws are random and there’s no guarantee they won’t just draw combo and kill you right there.
@@baconsir1159
I see your point, but I don’t think it really works that way.
1.) Scheming Symmetry doesn’t reveal, so you have no way of knowing what they get.
2.) Obviously Secret Rendezvous is pretty bad if everyone is running cheap competitive combo’s. Even then, there is always a player who isn’t the biggest threat.
@@BeastlyP1g At high power levels, the “biggest threat” is usually only such the turn they kill you. MAYBE the turn before. That’s the whole reason instant speed removal is WAAAAAY fucking better than sorcery speed.
As for Symmetry, that’s politics in general. You’re operating under the assumption that, if a player agrees to something, they’ll honor said agreement.
@@baconsir1159 Exactly my point. While you’re right in higher power groups it’s pretty bad, but in casual tables where players are attacking it’s a great card.
I'm absolutely on board with Richard on secret rendezvous. In 1v1 it's a really bad card, but in multiplayer he has a very good point. It's less card disadvantage than a windfall or a wheel of fortune
It's still garbage
@@fastydave maybe, but i played against judges in my local pods who use "garbage" cards and still win with them. he used a jeskai mill just for SnGs with secret rendevous, tutlege and just copied that spell infinitely, you draw 3 they draw 3 and just welp you mill/draw yourself out. there is SOME merit for it in Commander, 1v1 it is garBAGE and well not argue that
Dauthi Voidwalker also exiles everything that is hit by the wrath whilst it's out, which is really, really strong! It's a really strong card in general, and then you add in that you're in black, where you have easy access to reanimation, and it becomes just an absurdly strong card. 2 mana 3/2 that can't be blocked, locks yard decks, AND you can sac it to steal stuff, and then reanimate it?? The card is absolutely insane.
I've never seen people so wrong about dauthi voidwalker. Card is nuts.
The only real drawback I associate with the card is that it's too annoying and likely to encourage your opponent to snap remove it like it was a Vorinclex or something, or steal it from you and use it against you. I don't know if those things even can bring it down a tier, but I would still say "play with caution"
absolutely insane episode.. these people have apparently not played with it enough.. jesus
@@Kryptnyt if they have to waste removal on a 2 drop, that's still pretty good
@@leonjakobsen272 In 1v1, sure! In Multiplayer, you want your opponent to play Dauthi Voidwalker, and your other opponent to remove Dauthi Voidwalker.
They were wrong about basically every card it was painful to watch
Listening to Richard's takes on the regular podcast, even if contradictory to the group, led me to believe he's a great Magic player early on. The reason he sounds combative is cuz Seth and Crim make content so they evaluate cards on how sweet they would be if they went off, while Richard is a realist that mastered Jund. Richard has success with any deck he plays because he is skilled AND knows his way around the politics. And yes, Rendezvous is amazing.
Tomer constantly rates B cards A. "It's so good in this one deck / archetype!!!" Absolute sea monster tier rating scale.
He always evaluates cards based on if everything goes right, rather than how often a card can whiff. His blue wrath evaluation shows that in spades.
I feel like Tomer evaluate cards based on how good they are in the decks that they would be played in, not how generically good they are / how many decks they would go in.
at this point the true meme is how no one recognizes Richard's excellent card evaluation
Ingenious Mastery is another 3 mana draw 3 btw, and it's just as underrated as Secret Rendezvous :)
Richard needs to cast Secret Rendezvous live *once* to convince everyone. That's all it'll take.
And make that player draw a silver bullet that deals with his strategy. It's good in magical christmas land but you aren't gonna be in optimal circunstances most of the time.
@@yotuel9064 if a player gives you free card advantage, why would you target them?
Because they are your opponent and you want to win? What a strange question
I love that card. Auto include in my Pheldda deck!
Richard convinced me on Secret Rendezvous. You are up 2 cards vs 2 players and down 1 card vs 1 player who will be your friend because you gave them 3 cards. It's similar to why Arcane Denial is good in EDH but horrible in 1v1 formats.
Augur of Autumn does not reveal the top card of your library unlike courser or kruphix. Probably worth mentioning.
Yep. I was coming here to say this. If you have Courser out and your top card is Craterhoof your opponents will destroy you because they know what's coming. With Augur, only you know that you're about to win
My first reaction to the start of the list was "Kaldheim was this year?"
There's been too many damn sets to keep track of.
I’ve felt the power of Dauthi voidwalker and it is OP! If you play it on turn 2 or even 3 if you’re on the play it’s usually just a Kodamas reach/cultivate!
The discussion about storm-kiln is the perfect example of why i think this is a terrible way of rating cards. The idea that a generic card is intrinsically better than a card that's locked into a specific archetype, is such a terrible way to evaluate card quality
I agree that Yavimaya is an S. The real downside of it though, beyond that it's not a basic, is that it also fixes your opponents.
Wanted to back this up.
If green is the most played color in EDH, then sitting down at a table and fixing everyone else's ramp colors, typically before you have a chance to make use of that fixing, is definitely a negative.
Crim: "I'm pretty sure having this card in your deck increases your credit score." Can confirm. I was able to buy a boat after I put Toski is my deck. The boat's name is 'Bearer of Secrets'.
Another Top 10 of 2021 list and zero mention of Tireless Provisioner. I know that I'm super over hyped on this card but the amount of games I've won because of it is insane. Even in a deck that isn't built around landfall gets an extra mana every turn, it's just so good!
Secret rendezvous is actually good though. Richard is ahead of the rest of you. Think of it from quandrant theory:
It's good when you are behind because it draws you 3.
It's often good when ahead because you can give 3 cards to a player that you have lethal on (doesn't matter if they drew cards I'd they never had the chance to use them), or to the player least threatening to you.
At parity it let's you break parity by drawing cards, and giving cards to someone else (possibly also having them break parity, or move up to it)
When opening it's good better it's 3 mana, and you can use the cards you are giving to choose another player as who ever views as ahead (you net 2 cards, they net 3).
The card remains useful throughout the game you just need to know how to play it
Secret Rendezous has quickly become one of my favorite cards. Here is what happens in my experience. I cast it, target someone, that someone becomes my friend and I get a couple turns of massive political favor. From a strictly statistical look at the card, it is bad. However there is such a massive uncalculatable benefit to political sides of cards.
Have you ever had the board know you have a removal spell and now all 3 players stop attacking you because they don't want their thing blown up? That 2 mana removal spell just became a modal 0 mana fog that might last multiple turns.
Secret rendezous is definitely a top tier card.
I always like this series because how they tried to persuade each other
Secret Roundezvous turned out so good for Richard. He is a genius deckbuilder.
You know it’s gonna be good when you get to the top 2 and there’s still like another hour left
I like Culling Ritual in my Yurlok deck, because they can sacrifice their treasures to stop me from getting the mana, but then they take mana burn if they can’t use ot
You can combo Secret Rendezvous with Wedding Ring to have your opponent draw six.
That’s it, I’ll add Secret Rendezvous to my Oketra the True and see how it goes. I’m already playing with the subpar version of Oketra, might as well try this
Im with Richard.
If Opponent A has a commanding lead, and Opponent B has an answer to extend the game but requires draws....secret rendezvous works. Especially if you take into account turn order. Choosing the player to your right means they have 2 players before they get to play. It may even put them over the card limit.....
Finally someone talking about Augur of Autumn... Such a strong card!
Volo loves Augur of Autumn
You know, Richard isnt wrong, I have Cartographers Hawk in every white deck I run. It ALWAYS gets me a land.every time. It doesnt consume your land drop. It comes down REALLY early. It is easy to splash with only 1 white pip. And, unless you are running green, you will always hit a player that has more lands than you. And then there is the green player that is GOING to ramp. Its what green does. Unless green is paired with white or blue, you will most likely get in there through the air unless they have reach. And, when you no longer need a land, it beats for 2 damage and it flies. It's an emergency air blocker when you need one. I have mutated cards onto this creature that helped me ramp into the mana needed to mutate onto it. It is honestly a very efficient card.
There is one small thing that actually keeps me off Cartographers Hawk, more than it bouncing back to your hand, is that its not a may, if you hit someone with more lands than you, you HAVE to bounce it and ramp, this makes it way way worse with things like equipment or even mutate as you mentioned. In my opinion, if it was a may, it gets way better.
Note on Curse of Hospitality: Once you've finished killing the player, any lands, creatures etc you got from the ability goes poof when the player leaves the table. So, there's sort of a parabolic curve of who wants to kill the guy with the curse. Whoever has the most value becomes the one most interested in keeping them alive. The people with the least value from it want to remove that value by removing the player. (It really illustrates hedonism better than any card in the Hedonism Set, no?) In the end it's also kind of just a howling mine that hates one player and I don't think that's very fun. "Group hug, except for YOU!" the card. I think it's good to be able to cast on an archenemy in a very unbalanced game state. Other than that I'm not high on it.
Think it would be sick to build with this kind of card and cards like Brand and Homeward Path; curse yourself, share your deck, then take it all back!
This is my favorite format of video that you guys put out. Thanks for the content boys. 🙏
Honesty tho
Regarding Yavimaya. Arbor Elf/Quirion Ranger/Scryb Ranger/Nissa etc. Turn your Cradle or Nykthos or anything into a forest etc. Arguably better than Coffers. This is the "combo" you were looking for.
Yavimaya, Cradle of growth can also make it easier to cast or activate things with more green mana in their cost than the deck can normally provide. You just can't rely on having it too much. There's also a couple cards that get better the more forests you control and Q Ranger can pick up any forest which can protect or reset upkeep or depletion counters
It also makes lands tap for mana that usually don’t. Such as glacial chasm or tabernacle. Can also make fetch lands tap for mana and not have to sac them if you want to wait to crack them for landfall triggers
It also synergizes with cards like Arbor Elf (Untap target forest) to let you use lands like Nykthos or Cradle multiple times in a turn.
If you can afford Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Yavimaya makes your elves unblockable
With Yawimaya you can run beacon of creation in token decks who do not have many basics because of field of the dead.
2 things:
Seth was actually right on a pronunciation for coven?!?!
Crim's rant on Toski was brilliant and I laughed so hard people were worried.
Every time Richard is super right, everyone memes on him. And Tomer has some weird pet cards and super weird thinking on good cards.
It depends. On a lot of cards he takes an unpopular opinion and is absolutely correct. But others he picks strange hills to die on.
Like by the definitions offered how is Vanquish the Horde not an A? It doesn’t go in every deck, but for those that want such an effect it’s always good at its job, actually quite often the best option.
@@timbombadil4046 Ofcouse vanquish the horde isn't an A.
First how many boardwipes do you play? in creature decks 0-2, in most common decks 1-3 in control or decks with no creatures 3-6. Thus if there's around 2-3 which are better or even then it's not an A.
Better ones imho.
Blasphemous act
Toxic deluge
Meathook massacre
rout
dead of winter
supreme verdict
Possible better / up for debate
By invitation only
Hallowed burial
Now that's only counting the ones that only hit creatures, which i'd say you only play in decks with 3+ boardwipes, or if you need your boardwipes to hit only creatures like if you play planewalker.deck or indestructable dudes tribal.
Now if you count any boardwipes the list of better ones becomes so extensive that it becomes silly.
to name a few:
Jokulhaups
Cyclonic rift
Akroma's vengeance
Austere command
Cataclysm
Catastrophe
Cataclysmic gearhulk
Hour of revelation
Play the game
Merciless eviction
All is dust
and so on.
Their definition of a B rank is, good in specific decktypes. How can it not be a B rank if it's only optimally played in a subset of decks that's a mono white or possibly selesnya control deck or planeswalker tribal / indestructable creatures tribal?
You can argue that your play group don't want to play some of the listed cards or that a few aren't actually better, even so it still leaves enough that are better. By their premis, it's categorically a B.
Oskar but on your list only Toxic Deluge and Blasphemous Act are better. Easy A
fully agree to B yavimaya.. I have a 5color deck, guess what, land base is mostly green producing and I fix with green ramp. Who needs a 12 dollar basic forest? expecially when you can use that budget for a triome or... 3 new duals for instance?
I agree in 5C. If you're running a spell that has more than two pips of the same color, you might want to consider cutting that card. The World Tree, on the other hand, should go in every non-CEDH 5C deck, mostly because some day you'll get to WWUUBBRRGG for that sweet sweet Maskwood Nexus win.
Arbor Elf plus Gaeas Cradle plus Yavimaya Cradle of Growth is a decent reason to run it. Also forestwalk stuff for Chatterfang and Elvish Champion
Cards I think that are undervalued that came out this year, Warning..pretty long post.
Reidane, God of the Worthy - On Curve she disrupts opponents spells, and if you draw her later you can use the artifact half to be a major disruptive force.
Behold the Multiverse - early game you can fortell it for later, late game it is an instant speed "Draw 3"
Open the Omenpaths - Ramp to your commander, OR..get the last few points of damage in if needed.
Binding of the Old Gods - Unrestricted Targeted Removal that will fetch a Dual Land/Triome and Okay Deathtouch doesn't matter.
Snow Duals: Yep, Ryu "I hate ETB tapped lands" is saying that an ETB land is underrated. These are budget ways to get a few extra Duals for Fetch Lands.
Baleful mastery : Exile Based Removal, Instant..and can be cast for cheaper if you absolutely have to.
Beledros Witherbloom: Its a Verdant Force that can Untap your lands, before Seth reminded me of the existence of Food Chain this was my big Turn enabler in my Tiamat Deck.
(IN BUDGET ONLY) : The Campuses, Sure they ETB Tapped, but a mini Castle Vantress is a good mana sink late game.
Paladin Class : Taxes things only on your turn incentivizing Control decks to act on not your turn, it buff your team and the third level can be used as a Surprise Crack Back death.
Contact Other Plane: Minimum Draw 2..Maximum Scry 3 Draw 3.
You find the Villains Lair - Cancel or Loot.
Unexpected Windfall - Instant Speed Red Loot Effect that Creates Treasures
The Slow Lands - Good mana Equals Good life.
Dig up - Make your land drops early on, Tutor Later on.
Honored Heirloom - 3 CMC mana rock that makes any color..with a side of Graveyard hate.
Edit : Also, Hot Take. World Tree is Overrated.
Yavamiya also fixes opponents mana - turns on your opponents useless Cabal Coffers or Tomb of the False God etc. There's a cost there more than the value you get from it
It doesn't turn on your opponents Cabal Coffers, or Tomb of the false gods. Coffers requires SWAMPS not forest, and Tomb counts the number of lands not the type. I don't understand your argument.
@@thomasjacobs4919 what they're saying is that each of those lands get "tap this land: make G" instead of having to wait to have enough swamps or lands to use them to produce net positive mana.
@@tmakalpha1 I can see that argument.
Rating ignoble hierarch as an 'A' is comical. "it fixes your mana" -- does green ever have trouble with that? This card is just a narrower Birds of paradise, and nobody is that excited about birds.
Also Dauthi Voidwalker is good. The argument of "oh itll just get removed" is pretty weak in this scenario imo: I want my opponents wasting their removal spells on my 2 mana utility creature and not my 6 mana hoser that my whole deck is built around.
If your deck plays llanowar elves/fyndhorn elves/Arbor elves without elf/untap synergies, ignorable Hierarch is better than those. For now, fast decks that kills by Turn 6-8 is kind of the norm, and until people start playing more wraths again, mana dorks will reign supreme.
And I totally agree with dauthi voidwalker, its insane value for a 2 drop, hoses so many archetypes by itself, and can become a must-answer target while creating value
^it's more about having redundancy
There is one combo with Yavimaya that I can think of and I use it in my Slugurk deck. It's Yavimaya + Life and Limb + Ezuri's predation. It's not the most powerful combo, requires three cards and lots of Mana, but It's my version of "fair" land destruction as I usually win on my next turn, but I have lost with it before lol
Such a great combo! Can also work with say an Elesh Norn.
Think it's an A overall. Would say it's an S but many decks should be skewing towards green mana and letting the green fixing effects fix the mana from there anyways, limiting it's value since it can enable opponents too. For most decka with green it's a freebie, but some wont want it.
Richard: "We have such good fixing that this isn't worth it."
Richard, this is PART of that really good fixing! You say that double pips are hard to cast. This is a LAND that makes double and triple pips inconsequential in a tri-color deck!
any deck running green is generally skewing their mana base towards green in the first place, to be able to play the early game ramp spells that will fetch out the rest of the non-green lands you have, it's fixing in the colour that your mana base should generally be skewed towards already. i'd put World Tree as a much better piece of fixing for multicolour decks
@@tomhourie9172 you can only use World Tree in 5 color decks, so you can't really compare it Yavimaya
I love all the 5-0 split references, but I think you guys should make a short about it so the people who didn't see the episode understand the reference.
On "In a Boros deck, do you play Vanquish the Horde or Blasphemous Act", I run both, and more, in Akiri Equipment. In that particular case, Akiri really benefits from having extra mana to make your things indestructible, which makes efficient damage and creature destruction effects super valuable. Generally, I'd agree Blasphemous Act is better, but the other day I was in a game where someone was playing human tribal and his 8 tokens had just become 14/14s the turn before drawing Blasphemous Act, so... run both.
On "Would Xenagos, God of Revels run Toski, Bearer of Secrets", I haven't tried Toski in my Xenagos deck, but the biggest challenge I've experienced with other situations is that 4 mana is awkward when you are curving out: I probably ramped on 3 mana, skipping 4 strait into 5 for Xenagos. Then every turn thereafter, I want to play things that can kill players, so I kinda need 9 mana to be able to play a threat and Toski at the same time, and most games don't go that late, or there's other engines that are also threats, or there are other pairs of cards that end the game. So, I'm not sure if I've played a game where having a Toski would have dramatically changed the outcome; it's worth trying, but I'm leaning Tomer's direction.
Crim immediately marking Dauthi Voidwalker down a grade to B because it's a creature...WOW! Crazy. It's more than just "good."
I like using arbor elf to Untap gaea’s cradle when yavimaya cradle of growth is in play.
We had a guy play a gods deck and use world trees ability. It was a close game and he survived several board wipes because of the gods being indestructible. It's was pretty sweet to see that go off.
Yavimaya opens up a lot of forest bounce combos, such as quirion ranger and scryb ranger. The big two lands to bounce and re-play are gaea's cradle and nykthos, but it's strong with any land that can tap for multiple mana. It's also strong with Arbor elf. The cards I mentioned are all cards that are very decent in any deck that uses green, apart from maybe scryb ranger.
That’s my favorite thing to do with decks that run ashya and the rangers. Pick up etbs or go infinite with with a dork that taps for two or more. Throw in tireless provisioned/scute swarm/lotus cobra for more shenanigans
I agree with Richard on Yawimaya. A five colour deck shouldn't need 4 green mana, so the first forest is important, but a basic would do the same trick.
What Richard is missing about Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth is that there isn't a single big combo, but a bunch of good synergies because of the number of cards that care about Forests on both sides of the battlefield. Elves want opponents with Forests because of Forestwalk, some cards are free if your opponent has a Forest, more than one card has the Nissa text of having Forests tap for more mana, several Green pump spells are based on your number of Forests, cards that turn all your Forests into creatures or make creatures based on how many Forests you have, etc.
There are a ton of Green cards that want you to have more Forests in play, and a ton that want your opponents to have Forests in play.
First time commenter here!
I think the POV of mana dorks is a very relevant conversation. The higher powered the group the better that mana dorks are. In cedh dorks are amazing since wrath’s are few and far between. Cedh has a lot more targeted removal making mana dorks much better in that type of environment. Other than cedh then you’re correct about dorks in general other than something like elves.
The one thing that I absolutely love about Urza's Saga is its subtypes:
- "Saga" is an Enchantment Subtype, and that's pretty straightforward
- "Urza's" is a standalone land subtype crafted in 8th edition for the tron lands, along with "Tower", "Mine" and "Power-plant"!
They even used it in time spiral as a subtype for Urza's Factory, but they didn't introduce the "Factory" subtype, so the whole subtype is just "Urza's" :) (poor MIshra didn't get its own subtype though).
I agree with Richard, Birgi is an auto include in at least mono-red. Horn essentially doubles your card draw and can take you out of top-deck mode
Augur of autumn is the worst green card advantage card that scales off of creatures. Cause most green card draw still scales off of token producers and the like but if I ran auger I'd only want like 5 non creature spells in my deck max
I can't believe it, but I think Richard is right about Secret Rendezvous
He's not, it's trash
Everybody hating Secret Rendezvous is proof that everybody but Richard is a Commander Spike at heart. Nothing wrong with that, but it definitely effects the way you analyze cards for the format.
I think everyone needs to think of when a player is going to win and how they are desperately trying to piece together a way to stop them when thinking about secret rendezvous. Drawing three cards yourself and then knowing the person you are targeting is going to use one or more of those cards to solve a problem at the table seems pretty good to me.
I'll believe Richard when I see him cast Rendevous. He's had it in hand multiple games and has yet to cast it.
It is because Richard is always in a winning position in those games.
Urza’s Saga is such a mind blowing card. Or at least the fact that they included this in the same as Sol Talisman is just crazy. It outclasses it in every way even though they’re basically both a suspended Sol Ring.
Funnily enough you can't get Sol Talisman with it though
I agree w/ Richard about Yavimaya, Cradle. I run mono-green. I don't need to mana-fix any opponents splashing green.
There is a combo with Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth that can gain you a ton of life in a multiplayer game. Pair it up with Lifetap a UU Enchantment that reads whenever an opponent taps a forest gain 1 life. That will start netting you life right away and if not answered can spiral out of control fast.
Fully agree with Richard about Secret Rendevouz. Visionary genius
Agreed with Richard about Yavimaya.
I'm kinda with Richard on Secret Rendezvous, but I'd bump it down to a B. It's great for its niche, but it's still niche.
Toski absolutely goes in energy tribal! There are a lot of creatures in that deck! haha
I wonder if Richard considered Ingenious Mastery, it is similar but you give an opponent 2 treasures and scry 2. Maybe it's bad since you can help them ramp something out thats bad for you.
Richard such a troll. Secret Rendezvous top 10 lmao
I think my favorite card for commander from 2021 is Conspiracy Theorist. It fits well into a surprising amount of decks.
So I wanna make sure I get this. S tier is "you have to make excuses not to include it" and then Tomer starts making excuses to not include Toski and calls it an A. 🤣🤣
*PLEASE READ MTGGOLDFISH*
I've been watching commanderclash and listening to the podcasts for a while. I think your teir list should be re-categorized the letters. Often times C and B get reversed because Richard sees B as cards not good enough for A instead of cards that are niche. Which I think is fair. You can argue to swap C and B. Consider doing this
S- Staples (best cards)
A- All around (good flexible cards)
B- Borderline (decent cards)
C- Corner case (your niche cards)
D- Don't play (self explanatory)
Easier to remember what the categories stand for, again it's just to have powerlevel match better to the teir. Prime example is Vanquish the horde, Richard has it as B because it's just not that great in his mind, despite being playable. It's not because it's a niche deck that offers tech. The great sea monster boardwipe debate, it's not a great card, so C makes more sense powerlevel wise. Thanks :)
With Yavimaya in play, Arbor Elf can untap your lands that produce multiple mana (naturally or with Wild Growth or Utopia Sprawl). You can freely play non-forest islands for your Mystic Sanctuary without worrying about all the green pips in your hand. You’re colorless lands can add green. Mana Confluence, Canopy Lands, and Ancient Tomb can produce mana without dealing damage to you when you don’t need the fixing or the extra mana.
These small upsides won’t come up all that frequently, and they’re not worth going out of your way to assemble, but I think the downside in a green-based deck is negligible. Basic lands are important to have, but if you’re playing a 1-to-3 color green deck I find it difficult to believe you can’t afford to replace a basic forest.
The faster you want to play, the fewer land drops you expect to make and the better Yavimaya is. I think that’s also a factor. Both of my green decks are combo decks, which affects my evaluation of the card.
Vanquish the Horde does get around protection from white, and protection from red stops Blasphemous Act.
The Line between genius and insanity is very small. So Richard is a crazy genius.
In a single player format, Secret Rendezvous is bad. But in commander, you're not letting your opponent draw 3, you're letting your *potential ally* draw 3.
If the table needs a boardwipe before a player's next turn or everyone loses, then it's effectively draw 6.
@theonlyfish I figured it out! Secret Rendezvous in Azorius control... where you also play Narset, and Consecrated Sphinx. Nailed it. Awesome card! 👌
Here’s how I summarize your ranks:
D - Don’t play
C - Can play
B - Better than average
A - Awesome
S - Supreme/Superior
That sound about right?
I think the rest of the crew are really sleeping on the fact that secret Rendezvous opens up lots of favorable deals for the person playing it, if you are in a good position and you need something delft with you can auction off three cards for someone elses removal spell, sure it has risks but I think Richard has actually won me over to try this out in some decks. Having said that though I still rarely play white because of its other issues. Having bargaining chips that are slightly more favorable than this might be a cool direction for white in EDH turning it into the political colour makes it very unique to the format.
The fact that Richard grades B both Vanquish otH and Swords to plowshares as the white-mage representative of the group is mind blowing
Richard is right about Secret Rendezvous
No Circle of Dreams Druid? Gaea's Cradle on a stick not good enough, eh? Damn you, 2021 Magic!
Also, pretty sure Druid of Purification isn't on the list because it's not on MtGO. No way this card isn't S tier otherwise.
Over all, great list! I haven't played with many of these cards because MH2 cards are so pricey still, but for sure I'd play Sentinel and Saga everywhere if I could!
Also, Richard, I know you play Secret Rendez-Vous, I've seen your deck lists, but I have yet to see you CAST one. My challenge to you would be to actually win a game after resolving one. Then maybe I'll change my mind on it. Maybe.
Richard is pretty much spot on with Secret Rendevzius. The ONLY time that the card is actively BAD is when you are already the archenemy at the table and everyone at the table knows it. Even when there are only 2 players left, at worst, this is not a dead card as you can play it as a desperation 3 mana cycler. Most of the time, you can cast this a heavy political card that also happens to draw you 3 cards (who doesn't want to give someone else a turn off from attacks or help with a problem card on the table in exchange for drawing 3 cards?!?!). You WILL occasionally draw someone else into the cards/gas that they need to win the game, but WAY more often, this helps the TABLE deal with the archenemy and wins you an ally in the process.
Secret Rendezvous is a near perfect commander card. It being in white is almost the flavor alone. Literally create an ally and force the other two to decide what to do.
Richard, Yavimaya let's Arbor Elf untap Lost Vale.
Arbor Elf is already the highest ceiling ramp, and yavimaya lets you boost it's consistency with ancient tombs, nythos, bounce lands, lotus field, etc. Sure Arbor Elf is 1 in 99, but so is Sol Ring. Also some side degeneracy you can get up to with decks unfair enough to play Quirion and Scryb Rangers to soft ramp or rebuy mystic sanctuaries and bojuka bogs. You do need to rethink your mana base, but it's probably optimal to run it in every mono-green or heavy-green deck.
Esper Sentinel stuck around for 3 turns in a game the other night. It didn't draw me a single card. It did tax my opponent 3 mana and a removal spell. Still not horrible for 1.
Richard is spot on on Secret Rendezvous. Outside the political points it can score you, in a four player game he is correct that it provides you more advantage. Going up two cards while the rest of the table goes up an average of one is actually good for decks like Richard plays (those that aren’t looking to trade cards 1:1).
To expand on that thought, for a player like Crim, that likes counters and targeted removal, SR would be terrible.
Augur of Autumn reminds me of Course of Kruphix from Khans of Tarkir Standard with Siege Rhino. good times.
Voidwalker is sweet. Have one coming in the mail this week. Gonna put it in my deck.
Voidwalker is completely insane. Toski is great, but dies a lot to random -1/-1 effects like Yawgmoth, Doomwake Giant, Chittering Witch, the Tribal spell with -3/-3, Elesh Norn, …
Yavimaya is great and I feel there are more Forest synergies than you think.
Totally with Richard on Secret Rendezvous.
Crim wants you not to run mana dorks because they get around Opposition Agent
17:30 Don’t forget about creatures having protection from red :p
Ignoble hierarch Had a massive design flaw in my opinion. Noble hierarch is in the bant colors Where the exalted ability and the human subtype Are both massive boons.
Ignoble hierarch however, Would only have been good if instead of having exalted it had the clause "when this creature dies search your library for a basic landcard and put it into play tapped." That way it fits the jund theme and subtype that's useful while also getting some value that isn't overwhelming
2021 felt pretty tame overall for Commander which is, in my opinion, a good shift from 2020 when we had the "Free Spell" Cycle of the Ikoria PreCons and the numerous new staples from Commander Legends like Jeweled Lotus and Jeska's Will. Sure, powerful new cards are great and all, but printing staples directly into EDH sure felt parasitic in that it felt everyone was running the same cards. Sure cards like Esper Sentinel share the same vibes as some stuff from 2020, but I'm willing to give White more card draw compared to giving Blue more mana with Hullbreacher.
The stronger your deck is, the better 1 mana dorks are going to be in it. Yes they'll die, and yes they're bad to draw late game (debatable as to whether they're better or worse than drawing a land ramp spell at that point).
But skipping to 3 mana on turn 2 is incredibly powerful. 1 mana dorks create insane velocity. Less tuned decks that don't take advantage of that velocity won't recognize how powerful they are.
100% agree with Richard about drawing opponents cards is an upside.