MDFC Land Tier List | Commander Clash Podcast #7
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- We've had some disputes about Zendikar Rising's MDFCs in the past, so today we're settling it with a big debate! We rank all of ZNR's MDFCs that have a spell on the front and a land on the back.
All of our rankings: docs.google.co...
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What are your top 3 favorite land MDFCs?
bala ged recovery; khalni ambush; malakir rebirth (runners up: silundi vision; sejiri shelter)
1: bala ged recovery
2: agadeems awakening
3: sea gate restoration
Bala Ged Recovery
Valakut Awakening
Sea Gate Restoration
All auto includes for their respective colors imo.
1. Valakut Awakening
2. Bala Ged Recovery
3. Glasspool mimic
I do not much like Seagate Restoration simply because it only guarantees drawing 1 card even if it does get rid of your handsize limit, I feel like the floor is too low for a 7 mana spell.
1. Tangled Florahedron
2. Valakut Awakening
3. Turntimber Symbiosis
Listen up algorithm, everyone needs to see this.
Retweet
I'll tag my sister in this. She'll totally care. 🙄
@@TheSpiritombsableye good to see your family playing magic
@@HumassiveTuba, they don't.
I like that Tomer is worried about bala ged recovery being too expensive at 3 dollars but the other cards are bad because they dont work well with the 100 dollar cabal coffers
@@Nyundaa that’s not his argument though
In case you are curious the reprint of coffers is a hair above 20 bucks now
Price don't matter when a homie got a printer or a pen
TLDR for video: 3 of Tomers friend worry for their friend who doesn't understand why Ondu Inversion is good, but somehow loves Malakir Rebirth
Given how often Tomer incites the others to single his commander out, this actually makes total sense
I also love Malakir Rebirth but that's no reason not to like Inversion
I don't disagree, it's just funny to see how their playstyle and experience come out in their ratings
I think the card he was most right about against the others was rebirth and the most wrong he was against everyone else was Ondu Inversion
I think in general Tomer rates cards with low floors and really high ceilings higher than cards with reasonable floors and not super high ceilings. I also think that he's wrong lol.
The one thing I've learned from this video is that Tomer loves Basic Lands more than I thought was possible.
basic lands are the mega nuts. untapped lands are broken and commander players should run way more of them.
Someone put the fear of Blood Moon in Tomer.
@@swiftdragonriderthey were ranked as the 20th best card by channelfireball for a reason
Tangled Florahedron works the reverse of every other MDFC. Every other card, you’ll play as a land on turn 2, and maybe use it as its spell on later turns. Florahedron hits the table as a creature on 2, and as a land on later turns. I think that’s where the confusion comes from.
But late it's far more important to have an untapped land late. Playing a tapped land on one is fine. On five when you want to cast your golos is painful
@@MasterDoctorBenji why would you have a golos?
@@vurtruvious5280 why wouldn't you? Washing machine tribal? Cha-ching
@@MasterDoctorBenji It's a banned card now.
Not every card in the mono black list needs to fuel Coffers. You need stuff to throw all that excess black mana into, and an X spell that can get tons of creatures back is a decent way to do it, and it's a land when you need it.
@James Black Who said run only 33 swamps? Not me.
@@Nocturne989 sarcasm mate
Also Urborg
Yeah I feel like 20-25 basics is enough for a coffers list imo. If I have 4-5 swamps, coffers, and a non-swamp I’m not particularly upset.
Before I've even watched this, I wanna say that I have fewer than 0 complaints about these super super long episodes. Please don't worry too much about keeping them short!
I love playing MDFCs, and I also love using the Ravnica bounce lands to bounce MDFCs I’ve used as lands in the early game back to my hand to use as spells later. But I’m also a super greedy player
I cant wait for tomer vs the rest of the crew for ondu inversion.
The reaction to listening to each other member's top 3 MDFCs at the end was beautiful
Board wipes are overrated imo. But if I had the view of them as essential, I would probably side with the S's or at least an A.
Isn’t planar cleansing just better then ondu inversion
@@adammorin2955 Multiple cards are better than Ondu Inversion; White has a cavalcade of similar effects. The thing with OU is that it's also a land early and doesn't clog up your initial grip.
@@qwormuli77 eh i still don’t like ou i rather use hour of revelation or planar cleansing tbh
"C: is average"
"C means I'm not happy casting this"
Tomer is apparently unhappy casting the average magic card
Considering the amount of cards made for limited and only playable in limited, that's accurate.
on a S/A/B/C/D-scale B is average, C is pretty bad.
Well...
I won't put a grizzly bear in my commander deck...
Yes. In commander we have every card bar a few bans. The average card is avvs, I want to play good cards
I mean, yeah. Me too. When you have access to almost every magic card ever printed, average is only good with high synergy
Setting the context for the ranks /and/ then also going through each person's own opinion on MDFCs. 10/10!!! Adds great context ontop of y'all's great discussions!
"The rate on Sea Gate is bad, you're only drawing 1 or 2"
I need to see this man's Blue-Inclusive Hellbent deck, because I don't think I've ever seen a blue-inclusive deck go down to an empty hand, much less on their own accord.
Charm tier list needs to be a thing now.
It is.
Malakir rebirth is by far the mdfc I’ve cast the most obvious s tier. I mainly play syr Konrad and he always draws hate and this is clutch time and time again
Ah! I see you are a man of culture aswell! :-D
Malakir Rebirth is actually usefull in EDH and not overpriced as most of them.
Most similar effects cost 2 with a negligible upside. This, with a minimal downside of two life has all the relevant text in one mana in addition of being an early land. And it's a literally one mana land-slottable effect that could be argued to have an effect with the highest chance of winning you the game. One could say, that the rate of game where you wouldn't have lost with a timely spot removal is directly proportional to games where that spot removal steals the game from you. With that, this is literally a 1 mana MDFC with a comparable effect to Hagra Mauling. My most used MDFC for sure (even if it's a result of black being my most played color, but still).
Seth saying kazuuls fury combos with his song mad treachery was golden and made my day
I have not played EDH since Zendikar but Seth, Richard, and Crim all legitimately sold me on Ondu Inversion
Valakut Awakening and Bala Ged Recovery are the only two MDFCs I think literally every on color deck should run, so I think those are my top two and in a tier of their own.
I run a muldrotha primal surge deck that doesnt want this cus its a spell.(if only its front side was the land) Also have an animorph deck that uses green warden and den protector so i already have good enough gy recursion in a deck that doesnt need it. I gotta 5c elemental deck that can use horde of notions the white cavalier an revilark for gy recursion. My mono G omnath usta run it but i cut it cus of being a tap land. That deck is filled with threats so instead of recuring one its better to jus draw into new ones and i jus run the big green return everything you have no max hand size instead. My merren deck does gy recursion better an wants creatures so it doesnt make the cut in all green decks. I think bala ged fits in any deck that could use gy recursion but isnt dedicating slots. I run it in half my green decks, If i had more of the valakut one i would run that in every red deck its jus a good rate. Malakir rebirth is the one im most happy about casting, the blue clone i never play as a land and the white protection and deal dmg based on creatures i do run in all my mono white decks, but if you add any other color ill cut em. Will never cut ondu inversion though. I play aggro decks and that is the only boardwipe i will run in so many decks. In 5c elemental it is the only board wipe and cus its a land i can crop rotation then play it from ancient greenwarden and then use living twister or bouce land to cast it making it recurable even though ive never needed cast it i love havin the option.
I dont agree with the rating system cus no land is good enough to go into every deck except the red draw one and debatly ondu. Every other land is good to great in most decks or jus not impactfull enough.
Richard on Tangled Florahedron: ...5C included, every deck.
Just tossing fuel on the flames.
I'm with Seth, Agadeem's Awakening is and S tier card. It can either be a land or a reanimation spell. I think the group is a little caught up on the either or instead of the flexibility. I play it in Muldrotha.
I think Tomer is correct in his assessment on Malakir Rebirth, but I think he's off on Emeria's Call and Ondu Inversion. While I don't think Ondu Inversion is S tier but it's definitely A tier. Richard definitely explained it well. It doesn't necessarily have to sit in your hand, you can play it as a land.
The key to the MDFC's is their flexibility.
Is that what we’re going to do today? Fight?
Khalni Ambush? On a Tuesday?
One of the best quotes from that show. Red Foreman is a legend.
The florahedron is actually more than just a rampant growth or tapped Land. In golgari Decks that count the number of creatures in graveyards this increases the count ( Izoni, Jarad, Songs of the Damned , Splinterfright, golgari gravetroll, spider spawning , mausoleum secrets and soo much moooore!) . It is the only mdfz I’m actually playing ...
Tapped lands dont die. There are better mana dorks than this
I play it in my sidisi deck and it feels good when I mill it lol
Not playing Bala Ged recovery in golgari? It's the same mana cost as eternal witness (the most played green card in EDH)
I legit laughed out loud seeing the title for this, this will be interesting...
Something I'd like to mention about the "getting a Llanowar elf with turntimber symbiosis", if you dig Seven cards and the best creature was the elf, I'd be at least happy about the fact that the rest goes to the bottom. I traditionally don't run much noncreature heavy green decks, so pitching all those cards away has some advantage to it
Props to Tomer for continuing to push one of the best Commander cards: Hour of Revelation. It's a massive upgrade from Planar Cleansing, which I consider the "base" for that effect, and I need to see more people playing it. Keep fighting the good fight!
With that being said, Tomer, you are dead wrong about Ondu Inversion. I need you to understand: I would play this even in your worst case scenario in a deck with Emeria Shepherd, Emeria the Sky Ruin, Strata Scythe, etc, etc. It is that important to have an answer to an otherwise unanswerable board state. You're right insofar as this card is not as good as Hour of Revelation (one less white mana, though, for the record), and you're right: i wouldn't replace any of the other "Planar Cleansing" cards for this. I would, however, replace a basic plains every. single. time. Is this card better than Hour of Revelation? No, of course not. But it's not competing against Hour of Revelation. It's competing against the 37th land in your Commander deck. The downside of coming into play tapped as a land *is worth* the ability for it to save a game of Commander in the lategame. I know you said that you've had many games where it sits in your hand and you're unable to cast it, but that's not a valid criticism *if* it's a part of your mana base; in that circumstance, a basic plains would have been just as worthless. The key metric in such a scenario is whether a land entering tapped will cost you the game more times than casting Ondu Inversion will win you the game. I assert that's a trade worth making every time.
I've seen you run Guildgates in your budget lists because the mana fixing is more important than coming into play tapped, a decision that I agree with. This is similar: it's worth playing a bad land because it solves a more important problem.
Edit: To add on, cards like Malakir Rebirth and Tangled Florahedron are cards that I would count in the "spells" section of the deck. Their front sides are good enough that I would want to cast them as a real spell, and they then have the added upside of being a land if you're mana screwed. Ondu Inversion is the opposite: a card I wouldn't want as a "spell" in my deck, because there are more efficient spells than it, but a card that I count as better than another land in nearly just about every deck that has white.
I agree 💯
While I agree with most of Tomer's takes here, IMO this is correct. And the best part about OU is that it's a planar cleansing that doesn't clog up your starting hand. Still not a complete auto-include, but a good option to consider for every white EDH deck.
This! I've top decked an ondu inversion and it has helped me get back in the game, whereas a plains would not.
If tangled florahedron is good enough you'd want to cast it as a real spell, you're playing some shit decks.
This is my favorite podcast because they shoot for an hour and I can see them doing a 3 hour show on accident.
Tomer: There's a time and place for MDFCs
Seth, Richard, Crim: But we like them.
Audience: Tomer is the villain.
I'm mostly with Tomer on the ratings. I think many people greatly underestimate how bad tapped lands are.
You should add a disclaimer when someone badmouths Eternal Witness guys!!! LOL, I had a mini heart attack
Ano!
Being a body is good enough without any synergies.
I think everyone had some good points in this video. The effectiveness of these lands definitely depends on each individual deck and strategy. Great video!
Seth: so its another hull breacher
Crim: I play other creatures
Me: yeah like notion thief
The moment we've all been waiting for. Tangled Florahedron = S teir or we riot!
Agreed!
no
Disagree
100%!
Any one mana mana dork is better and if not basic forest is better. Its f tier bad.
The wubrg thing didn't bother me.... until Tomer mentioned it and now I just can't stop thinking about it
honestly tangled florahedron is one that you have to play to see how good it is. I slotted it in on a whim to try it out and it's always great!
I have tried Florahedron many times and it was always beyond terrible for me. F tier.
@@keep7smiling you didn't give any context for playgroups or deck types so i really don't know what to tell ya bud.
it's literally bad lmao
Compared to nature's lore i would say it's strictly worse, except when you have fewer than 2 lands in the opening hand or you need a creature for some reason
@@randoomday1520 its been quite a while but i do still play the little guy. if your deck is playing mana dorks, generally you have a handful of ways to draw cards off of them so they're not dead draws in the late game. better than a land in that case. plus florahedron is great in basically any opening hand imo, i like the little bit of consistency it adds to creature/ramp focused green lists.
that being said it's not good enough for most multicolor decks, you obvi have access to better mdfcs in that case.
At some point they will need to embrace the fact that this podcast is just 2 hours long...
I watch it at 1.5x
Even if it's three hours long I'd still listen it through lol
I mean I dont see why Ondu is bad, but I 100% would not have it as an auto include, which is what this tier list equates to S. So I would give it an A
Top 3 for me:
Valakut Awakening
Bala ged recovery
Seagate restoration
I agree with everything except the Seagate restoration, I feel like Valakut Awakening is very nearly better than Restoration in every way, it's only catch is you lose the old cards which, in my experience, I didn't want anyway.
Bala Ged Recovery is just the best MDFC.
Regardless of how good MDFC's are I can't understand why they insist on counting these as lands, why would you reduce your "Land count" rather than treat them as spells and have them actually be extra lands to guarantee your colors/curve?
To me, Ondu Inversion would be an A. I have had instances where I need a wipe effect on T5-6 and where I had 7 mana and only that card as a land which made for pretty awkward situations. Since its effect is 8 mana, I wouldn't replace a land with it in my deck as well, so although I believe it is very good, there are a few times where I wouldn't put it in my deck but most of them will have it.
Edit:
Oh and for my top 3. I'd say 1-Valakut's Awakening, 2-Bala Ged Recovery, 3-Ondu Inversion (sorry Tomer)
im fully supportive of tomers position with Ondu Inversion,
Possible Topic:
Is it better to incentivize or force an opponent to do something you want?
It’d be a deeper dive on politics. Incentivize gives them resources and they can not but keeps their graces. Inversely forcing leaves them no choice which can build resentment. As a player which would you rather do to another player? Why? When? Etc.
Another way to term it would be are Threats better or worse than Deals?
I live for Seth's face during Tangled Florahedron
I'm writing this comment as I listen:
So, I may be missing an implication by the statement... but everyone does not have Cabal Coffers. Maybe in MODO, but otherwise no that card is expensive as hell. I do wanna say that Urborg exists and is generally put into any deck running black which is far more financially doable than CC. It should also be noted that as powerful as CC is, you don't need them for mono-black to keep up.
When you love Malakir Rebirth & Ondu Inversion equally 😵💫
Probably one of the most important episodes, given how often it is referenced in clash
This is fantastic, I was just wandering which one should I put into my deck. This video is right on time! :D
What do you think is the healthy number of basic lands in a two color commander decks?
Tangled Florahedron draws cards off of guardian project, great henge, beastcaller, etc. etc. it’s definitely good in heavy green decks.
The content we needed
So Seth likes to imagine magical Christmas land. Richard is seemingly level headed but loves things that are generically powerful to improve his jank tribes. Crim likes instants. And Tomer likes good cards.
MDFC's power is that you never flood AND you never drought/screw when drawing them. Flood and drought are the most feels bad aspect of mtg. MDFC's are simultaneously letting you play a spell while being a spell to play.
Taking a hit to quality to ensure consistency means a smoother over all game and will pad out your win percentage constantly.
My take on Ondu Inversion: if I'm casting an 8 mana boardwipe, I want it to be able to leave me ahead of the rest of the table, rather than leave everyone at parity. Maybe it could be worth half a land slot and half a spell slot, but most of the time I don't think it would make the cut for me.
Exactly my thoughts. Plus i have a mardu deck that I kept a 4 mana hand and then went 10 turns with only 1 more land. And I have won on turn 9 with only 5 lands and 0 rocks. Sometimes you get really mana screwed so don't always count on 8 mana.
I struggle loving Agadeem's Awakening because most reanimator decks are trying to cheat in large mana value creatures, so it's difficult to pay enough into X for it to be worth it a lot of the time. However, I think it's a great card in specific decks that use low mana value creatures and that gain value from recurring them (as seen in standard with Lurrus + rogues)
I'm running it in Syr Konrad without any qualms, but it's not good enough for my Toshiro deck because the loss of a basic swamp is a real cost for a tonne of the ramp (Extraplanar Lens, Crypt Ghast, even Lily of the Dark Realms etc.) and utility (Tendrils of Agony, Defile) cards.
Any deck with sacrifice and cheap value creatures value Agadeem's. And because I consider almost every deck with a creature presence to be a deck that need sacrifice outlets, Agadeem's is pretty deece. It's only a shame that it's such an expensive card in a playgroup that prefers budget decks.
Card's a GOAT in Aristocrat. Instead of cheating in cards I always seem to be at X = 4. Ends up with something like Viscera, Zulaport, Ophiomancer, and Simulacrum. There are so many great 1-4 CMC creatures in aristocrats.
This podcast is the ravings of a mad man and that mad man is Tomer!
I feel like a part of Tomer not being as willing to run MDFC lands is the fact that he is usually brewing budget decks and card efficiency is much more important in a budget list, tapped lands and expensive spells have a bigger impact on the curve/spells per turn in a budget list compared to a nonbudget list.
(Tomer here) I'm not averse to MDFCs, and my average ranking of them is in line with Richard / Crim. The big difference between me and others in the group is I treat all of the non-mythic MDFCs as spells, not lands. Therefore they compete for a nonland slot with cards that perform similar roles. That's how I rate them.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander I think it's not super accurate to put it solely one way or another. Like if you replace one spell for a more expensive spell, you might also replace a spell for a land. Deck building is complex, and I think a lot of these grades are a bit biased because of the framework adopted that is more juat for theory, than practice.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander While MDFCs can't reliably be neither, I'd consider that spell sided approach as the more relevant method. On the land slide every MDFC is a literally strictly worse basic and who would ever play that? The excuse for playing them comes from the spell side and the spell side must be relevant enough to excuse the inclusion.
-This post was made by the Malakir Rebirth gang.
1) Makalir Rebirth 2) Balaged Recovery 3) Emeria's Call
Hard agree here
I evaluate almost all MDFCs as flood insurance. When you draw them late, they’ll do a thing instead of being a land. Cards like Sea Gate Restoration and Valakut Awakening, then, are pretty mopey. Cards like Hagra Mauling and Shatterskull Smashing, on the other hand, affect the board in a big way.
Silundi Vision > Sea Gate Restoration in any deck with a decent amount of instants and sorceries. It’ll at least dig 6 deep for something good. Sea Gate Restoration is gonna draw one or two cards at best 99% of the time.
Sea Gate Restoration actually does so much work for me. I draw like 4+ cards at the least and I get an emblem like effect that allows me to keep my hand. And it can come in untapped.
Once again Tomer's brain is casting Worm Harvest
Lmfaoo
1) Bala Ged Recovery
2) Valakut Awakening
3) Glasspool Mimic
I think 1 and 2 are very obviously the best to me. I struggled to decide on a 3rd, so I picked a card I think is very good and cool. Costed appropriately and although it is mostly limited to creature strategies, it fits any creature strategy.
I'd definitely put Malakir Rebirth up there for me, at least 3rd. Always absurdly useful.
It's so adorable when Tomer asks SETH for help with pronunciation... OF ALL PEOPLE, SETH!
So Seth likes to imagine magical Christmas land. Richard is seemingly level headed but loves things that are generically powerful to improve his hand tribes. Crim likes instants. And Tomer likes good cards.
I’m surprised they never mentioned the downside of Sea Gate Restoration, you need to have an already decently sized hand (3+) in order to get real value from it. Casting a 7 mana draw two cards is pretty rough
Well, still better than top decking a land on late game.
I count them as a spell, and use them only in game if I’m missing a land drop. Spell with land drop fixing
Pretty much the same here but when building a deck, I view them as half a mana source.
It honestly never occurred to me that an experienced player would look at the MDFCs and count them as a spell rather than a land or at least a fraction of a land. I don't know how to prove/disprove such a thing, but every fiber of my being tells me that this is objectively wrong. Like, obviously so.
Tapped lands have a real cost. If you cut lands for them, you lower the chances you cast them as spells. That reduces them to worse lands. Modality has its limitations. I count them as spells because, if in the deck, I want to cast them more than 3/4s of the time. Cutting lands for them is greedy deck building. If you wouldn’t want to cast it most of the times, why run a spell and worse land in the first place?
Ms. Sysbit, depending on playgroup, commander is generally a slower format so that argument is correct but I would say the cost is somewhat lower than other formats.
"Charms are fantastic, how dare you" - peak Tomer :D
loved the video would love to see more structure arguments like this, was extremely fun
I agree with how Seth value highly the MDFC to S or A, sometimes people forget that MDFC is also a land it will never be a dead card in hand.
The idea that somehow a board wipe/tap land is worse than a Plains because it doesn't trigger Emeria or you get one less Mana from Caged Sun is factually absurd. The notion that you'll never get that last Plains is nuts, you'll get there eventually, meanwhile this Ondu Inversion could save the day. It's a no brainer.
The land enters the battlefield tapped and the spell costs too much :(
Common card draw cards ranked when?
I actually run "Tangled Florahedron" in my 5 color Niv-Mizzet reborn deck, which was built on a somewhat restricted budget. It does work surprisingly well! It's not the single most optimized card, but it does put in a lot of work.
Tomer cannot fathom why someone would exchange a plains for a tapped land for the option to boardwipe sometimes. How is this possible.
I enjoyed the discussion, and just to also reiterate something that was eluded to early on in the video. A deck should only have so many tapped lands, so sure, these offer versatility, but outside of budget/specific decks, you don't want more than ~6-7 (~20% of your mana base) enters tapped lands, so these also compete against your utility land slots a lot of the time.
Top 3 MDFCs:
1) Sea Gate Restoration
2) Bala Ged Recovery
3) Agadeem's Awakening (with a 3.5 of Khalni Ambush)
And personally I think Khalni Ambush is a lot better than Kabira Takedown in letter grade. You don't always need the biggest creature on board for Ambush to have value, an Acidic Slime, Ambush Viper, Hornet Queen token, Ice-Fang Coatl, any creature with Ohran Frostfang on the battlefield after the damage step, etc., can just as easily be thrown under the bus to kill something. Yes, it's a 2 for 1, but in mono green the main way to get rid of creaturess if with a fight effect, so I'd rather 2 for 1 myself if it gets something off the board that will either kill me or have the opponent win the game. The only saving grace of Takedown is that it can target planeswalkers, but if you have a lot of creatures to kill one, you also can most likely swing through to just damage it directly. Though with my playstyle I'd rather have 1-several meduim-large threats vs. many little ones. Plus green only really has beast within and fight effects, white has much better options for single target creature removal.
On Tangled Florahedron:
I'm in the early planning stages of a 99 creature/land, Ruic Thar, deck, with hopefully a landfall subtheme, and I don't think this will make the cut. I'd rather play a 3 mana wood elf effect, than 2 mana for a bad dork/land. I basically want a dork that taps for 1 mana to be at 1 CMC one that can tap for more than 1 mana at 2 CMC, and a land ramp creature at 3 CMC. I mean there's at least 6 1 CMC dorks that tap for 1 mana, and many better ones at 2 mana that Tangled Florahedron shouldn't ever make the cut, right? And that's ignoring every green ramp spell, so it shouldn't be a contest. I will say, you did forget to mention that this could maybe go in elemental tribe decks to get more risen reef value.
1 CMC: Arbor Elf, Birds of Paradise, Boreal Druid, Elvish Mystic, Fyndhorn Elves, Llanowar Elves, Sakura-Tribe Scout
2 CMC: Bloom Tender, Devoted Druid, Gyre Sage, Llanowar Scout, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Priest of Titania, Whisperer of the Wilds
3 CMC: Dawntreader Elk, Elvish Rejuvenator, Farhaven Elf, Llanowar Tribe, Rishkar Peema Renegade, Selvala Heart of the Wilds, Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Somberwald Sage, Wood Elves, Yavimaya Dryad
That's 24 creatures, that should all be, in most cases, better than Florahedron.
On Ondu Inversion:
8 mana is a lot, so I wouldn't put this at S tier, and I already run ~5 board wipes in my decks and ~8 targeted removal, plus in my few decks, I don't run enough plains to replace one with Ondu Inversion. Plus with an average of 35 lands, I don't like the idea of it taking up a utility land slot. Maybe in decks I run more basics I'd be willing to try it out to have a 6th board wipe in a deck, but I've yet to use Hour of Revelation, so I don't think this would make the cut.
In my 2 decks that contain white, I don't really have the space to fit Ondu in.
Atraxa, Praetor's Voice big creature counters deck (only runs 3 basic plains): Black Sun's Zenith, Merciless Eviction, Toxic Deluge, Cyclonic Rift, Bane of Progress
Ghired, Conclave Exile lots of tokens deck (only runs 1 basic plain): Austere Command, Hour of Reckoning, Martial Coup, Phyrexian Rebirth, "Aura Shards" (close enough to a wipe in a creature/token deck)
This topic might be one of the most controversial topics in magic after the reserved list
spikefield hazard turns a regular death to an exile effect, at instant speed... the spikefield doesn't have to actually kill the creature as long as it was dying already. seems a little underrated
The real question is, "Where does Hedron Archive land on this list?"
So here's what I would say about mdfcs if you put them in a spell slot with the intention to cast them as a spell they also function as a land when you need the land. If you build your deck with enough lands and treat them as spells they're just redundancy which is always good
There's a few of these MDFCs that are really obviously archetype/mechanical support for ZNR Limited - Akoum Warrior, Umara Wizard, Blackbloom Rogue, Skyclave Cleric: they're all here to support the Party mechanic of the set, and a bit of the color pair's effects (Blue/Black had a Rogues & Mill theme, making Blackbloom a decent enabler).
The Mythics are all pretty interesting, and I definitely love the glasspool mimic, malakir rebirth, and the whole mythic cycle.
Seth: Commander Players don't play enough lands
Me with my 19 land Anje deck: And?
All of commander clash playing 5 to 6 more lands than the average commander player
MDFC Landspells are great. I'm with the oddly spiced olive man on this one
I play Agadeem's in Orah clerics. It is invaluable.
Need to reanimate stuff? Gotcha bud.
Someone Bojuka bogged your yard? Still a land.
This. The fact a reanimation spell is not dead is insane upside. It’s a game winner and imo the only S tier MDFC.
Ironically this is like the one thing toner and I agree on. I look at mdfc cards as spells with lands attached to them not like seth who looks at them the other way around. I want a spell that has good cmc for its effect and then having it be a land is the upside or possibly an option for when you are mana screwed. Not once have I looked at an mdfc as a land first. I already have enough lands I'll replace a spell that has a similar effect and now I get an extra land just in case. That's literally how they were designed.
Also as a side note most people I know dont play 38 lands in thier commander deck like these guys do. To me it's a waste of slots and then they want to count them as lands which is odd becuase they are already running extra lands
I have 3 ranks:
A- Card Spot: Can replace non-land card with acceptable downsides. These are the very best. (Hagra Mauling, Agadeem's Awakening, Sea Gate Restoration, Glass Pool Mimic, Valakut Awakening, Bala Ged Recovery)
B- Land Spot: The spell is useful but a considerable downside thus it would not replace the spell it self but a land or the spell is not inherently strong enough thus played as a land with an upside. These are Mid Tier. (Ondu Inversion, Malakir Rebirth, Beyeen Veil, Shatterskull Smashing, Silundi Vision, Song Mad Treachery, Kazul's Fury, Turntimber Symbiosis, Vastwood Fortification, Khalni Ambush, Emeria's Call, Makindi Stampede, Kabira Takedown, Sejiri Shelter)
C- No Spot: The spell is essentially useless and would play them as tap land 99.9% of the times. (Tangled Florahedron, Black Bloom Rogue, Pelakka Predation, Zof Consumption, Jwari Disruption, Umara Wizard, Spikefield Hazard, Kazandu Mammoth, Skyclave Cleric)
You can't get blown out by Hullbreacher with Valakut Awakening. You choose the cards you put into your library as the spell resolves.
you always draw 1 minimum tho
Agadeem's Awakening: B
Hagra Mauling: B
Malakir Rebirth: C
Blackbloom Rogue: D
Pelakka Predation: D
Zoff Consumption: F
Sea Gate Restoration: A
Glasspool Mimic: A
Jwari Disruption: D
Beyeen Veil: D
Silundi Vision: C
Umara Wizard: D
Shatterskull Smashing: A
Valakut Awakening: S
Song-mad Treachery: D
Spikefield Hazard: D
Kazuul's Fury: B
Akuum Warrior: D
Turntimber symbiosis: A
Kazandu Mammoth: C
Vastwood Fortification: D
Tangled Florahedron: C
Balaged Recovery: S
Khalni Ambush: B
Emeria's Call: B
Makindi Stampede: B
Skyclave Cleric: D
Kabira Takedown: B
Sejiri Shelter: B
Ondu Inversion: A
My top 3 being
3: Ondu Inversion
2: Bala Ged Recovery
1: Valakut Awakening
Florahedron is good. If your commander is 4cmc this is extra assurance that you get to cast it ahead of curve. At worst a tap land you can cast on a turn you're already going to ramp on. This card isn't bad by any stretch. I think at worst a B if you're commander isn't in a curve where 2cmc ramp matters
MDFCs are great in mono and some two-colour (Commander) decks. I always restrict the number of tapped lands I put into decks, and these would be competing for those slots.
And those slots already have cards like cycle lands, bounce lands, Boseiju, Colonnade, etc. fighting for a spot.
I can definitely respect the line of thinking of them just as spells with a little upside, though. But they're still competing with much better cards for those slots.
EDIT: I am super curious what cards Richard and Seth would cut for the Florahedron. There's a HUGE difference between land ramp and mana dorks.
I find it funny that Seth doesn’t like the Onslaught cycling lands but loved these MDFC lands so much.
I liked spikedield hazard, everyone is blinded that the fact that only deals 1 DMG that they forget that the sweet part of the card is that the target gets exiled, that way, you can yeet out of the game some creatures that otherwise will be coming back and back again
The two Mana Mana dork is also an elemental and plays well in certain decks
Omnath
My horde of notions deck would love that card. In fact I think I might have to pick it up.
Video title - MDFC Land Tier list
Tomer - I don't look at it them like lands 🙄😂
This is one of my favorite episodes. Rewatching it because of the break.
My top three, 1-sea gate restoration 2-bala ged recovery 3-Ondu inversion, or maybe the black mythic for 3
It seems like the fundamental difference in evaluation of MDFCs comes from whether you start with the question: "Is this an efficient spell?" versus "Is this spell critical when I need it?" Tomer starts with the former, the other three start with the latter. The discussion of Makir Rebirth and Ondu Inversion demonstrate this nicely. IMO, the latter is clearly correct. The entire point of MDFCs is that they take up a land slot (or at least most of a land slot) yet will occasionally provide you with a critical, game-changing effect when you need it.
Tomer, in the case that ondu inversion is in your hand and can't be cast, it would be a dud land draw either way. Actually, it would help you get to the higher mana cost cards.
Thanks guys :D, i think mdfs are very reliant on the powerlevel of your decks. If you play guildgates, you might as well rank all of them S tear
I think Seth likes putting so many cards in S tier just because it's the letter his name starts with
I wholly agree with tomer for once on malakir rebirth cards absurd just getting to essentially free roll a protection spell that’s also only one mana is amazing.
The chorus of guys not understanding why you wouldnt play bala ged recovery in every deck was so funny lol.
I think that I may have slept on Emeria's Call. Indestructible until your NEXT turn? That allows you to alpha strike and pass without worrying about a wrath! That's decent.
Zof consumption to the moooon!!!! Should be upgraded now with the stats lol. Thanks for all the hard work and content u guys do
Crim in that Kings jersey 👀👏🏻
Malakir rebirth is also one of the only ways black flickers, like kayas. So if you need some kind of flicker support say for kardur, it's great
Top 3 IMO
3. Sea Gate Restoration
2. Valakut Awakening
1. Bala Ged Recovery
My favorite is Glasspool Mimic for sure. It's really hard not to rank it in the top 3 but I gotta be honest. Additionally, I'm with Tomer on Malakir Rebirth and I'm on the rest of the squad's side for Ondu Inversion.