Christian Universalism w/ Andrew Hronich
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
- I'm joined by Andrew Hronich, author of Once Loved, Always Loved: The Logic of Apokatastasis www.amazon.com... We discuss universal reconciliation, eternal conscious torment, annihilationism, and much else!
For arguments against ECT, check out my Hell playlist: • Hell
Linktree linktr.ee/emer...
As someone’s who’s been both victim and abuser so to speak I truly hope I can be forgiven by those I’ve hurt and I’m trying really hard to forgive those who’ve hurt me. I just don’t care about revenge for people who’ve harmed me in the past for the most part anymore. I don’t want them to do that, I don’t want them to continue doing it to anyone, but if they regret it, or even know they were wrong and want to change that’s enough for me.
There’s enough hatred and revenge in this life. I don’t want to hang on to it in the next. Hypothetically speaking if I make it to heaven and if God asked me what to do with those who hurt me I’d ask him to forgive them, because I’d want the same for me.
“I’m too progressive for conservatives and too conservative for progressives.
I felt that haha
Hell yeah i love hearing Emerson talk about universalism
Whenever I hear about the injustice of the possibility of the abuser and the victim both going to heaven, I like to imagine Ann Frank in heaven 15 trillion years from now at a celestial café enjoying a beverage, when she suddenly hears an angel call out the name for the next order. "Adolf Hitler". And she thinks to herself, "man, that name sounds kinda familiar. I think I knew him back on the old earth. Maybe I should go say Hi"
Well it's certainly better than the possibility of both the victim and abuser being in hell together.
My where would the contemporary Christian be without Hitler? What a gift for the self-righteous.
@@Shaggy7759 zingo zango fim flam fandango, you have gained the plot
@@user-fp5gv5xh9d Lol, that's why I'm a Universalist haha
Great example of the scale of eternity vs mortality.
Ooh I’m reading Once loved always loved right now, so this is very helpful! (I asked my uni to buy it, which somehow worked). Good stuff so far
Ohhh Andrew Hronich on Unbelievable? I've been looking forward to a day Andrew gets to start debating his position!
He has debated already- type in Andrew Hronich debate
@@robfirestone6158 Yeah there's one that I see, looking forward to more, especially post release of his book. Also on Unbelievable that's a great format!
I’d like to see him debate clay jones. Clay once said that one of the benefits of eternal torment in hell is that all the believers will have an eternal reminder of “how stupid it is to sin”.
@@jonnyw82 lol
God is total love ❤️ I will never be convinced otherwise
I think most of Andrew's arguments are fantastic. However, he really ought to be more charitable to those he disagrees with if he wants to be more persuasive. Model the character of the God of universalism. If we believe in a God who loves His enemies, we ought to show charity to ours.
I used to use the "God is Love BUT...' theology to defend my former bad theology ;)
Hell of a conversation boys 😂😂👌
I particularly disagree that reading the NT independently would come to believe ECT as I read Paul's letters a lot my first year and believed UR.
Ironic how the doctrine of ECT influenced those like Darwin and Bertrand Russell...
Traditionalist always point out the heavy intense fire verses as proof texts for eternal punishment. But no one ever warns about the soap. Having soap in your eyes forever seems terrible to me. "And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller."
Great discussion. Luved it🎂🌻🎂 Beautiful and funny interaction between the two of you. Most of all: I learnt something!👋👋
As a Mormon, I would like to thank Andrew Hronich for the work he is doing in support of the LDS faith.
He’s not a Mormon I don’t think
@@eugene3484 i was trying to be funny
@@kp6553 I was actually trying to find out if he was Mormon. Don’t know much about him. How does this support LDS
@@eugene3484 the theology he articulates bares more than a passing resemblance to LDS orthodoxy.
@@kp6553 Mormons teach that all are saved?
"Conditional Universalist" I am stealing that.
Princeton ganggggg
You have one of the best youtube channels ever.
ngl Dale Allison would have to take out a restraining order on me if I was there
41:02 there is some language in the Bible about that mentality though. Can’t think of the verses right now but something like “they have their rewards now”
Great discussion, Emerson. I really enjoy watching Andrew on this topic. I think he has some good insights. I'll be debating the topic of the salvation of all on March 29 against an annihilationist on The Gospel Truth TH-cam channel. Hopefully you can check it out.
Good stuff. Reading Paul at first glance, he does not mention hades / gehenna / tartarus / hell, but he does worry a lot about judgment and condemnation and the final trial of deeds done in the body. I've always been fascinated by the absence of evidence for hell per se in the Pauline corpus. Returning to Matthew 25, I wonder how to separate the parables of Jesus from the theology of Jesus - maybe Matthew 25 is parabolic not meant to be doctrinal, like when the rich man and Lazarus end up in Abraham's bosom - that's another super interesting text of oddly specific details. I LOVE the distinction he makes between canonical and historical scripture, I think this is my kink.
Why would anyone sacrifice anything to take the gospel anywhere if in the end all will
Be saved? Why would Jesus command his followers to go into all the world and take this message everywhere if in the end everyone would be saved?
When is Andrew going to speak to Bill Maher?
Emerson, early on (around 7 min) you mention the traditional view as being at least part of a rational to walk away from Christianity. I can understand that. But, consider this . . .
1. If the traditional view were actually taught in the Bible, it would indeed be internally inconsistent and would count as evidence against Christianity
2. If Universalism is taught in the Bible, rejecting Christianity will have some cost to it, but the cost will be limited and temporary and eventually you will live forever in a world of no suffering and perfect joy together with those who accepted Jesus in this life.
But, there is a 3rd view
3. If Conditional Immortality (aka annihilationism) is taught in the Bible (and I'm convinced it is and I've shared lots of evidence for this on my own TH-cam channel), then it is not inconsistent with God's goodness AND by rejecting Christianity you will miss out on eternal life in a world of no suffering and perfect joy.
This doesn't prove that Christianity is true. But I hope it might help you think about the actual possibilities and perhaps move you to give Christianity another look. I would love to talk with you about this if you are interested.
A question. If universalism is true then who are those false prophets that belongs to damnation?
Why so many hold onto that view of eternal conscience torment is pride, a religious spirit, and the traditions of men. Asked at 29:40+.
Universalism is umbilical
Umbilical?
Demons, powers & principalities know God exists and yet they still rebel. We can’t presuppose resurrected humans will be any different. There seems to be some reprobate souls/entities who simply want NOTHING to do with the Father’s love and goodness.
To FORCE one to love God is not love at all. And to reprogram one is to delete one’s personhood. Long story short...in the end, conditional immortality is loving, wise & merciful!
No one is being FORCED to except and love what is actually good I don’t know where you got that from. Given an extended amount of time every being, who is good to their foundation created by Jesus for a loving relationship, which is true for every human unless you wrongly think God creates evil, will eventually come to the understanding of their ontological truth. Evil or sin cannot be infinite in nature. It is only a privation or distortion of good. God’s love, mercy, wisdom, justice etc. is infinite. My ignorance and will is not. God will love me forever but I cannot willfully deny the only true good in the universe forever. I have a more rational chance on accidentally finding out the truth then to resist it forever. God is like the chess master who will checkmate us in the end, not because he made us make whatever finite move we chose, but because he infinitely resourceful, wise, and good. I cannot outmaneuver God’s will for me and his total victory over Satan, Sin, and death. If I saw an immature blind and drunk person walking toward a cliff, whether they made the informed choice or not, is it merciful to let them walk off so I don’t violate their free will? Serious question. If you say yes this conversation is over because you have been severely brainwashed. If I don’t choose the good is my will really free? No I am still in bondage of some kind. Am I rude for not shaking someone’s hand while my hands are handcuffed behind my back while blind folded and deaf? Take your argument to its logical and moral ends and it is utterly incoherent and immoral. We can and do learn truths apart from coercion. Given true freedom, an acorn will become a tree. Given true freedom, a human will choose the good which is loving union with our Father. To use your program language, we are programmed to love love and any other choice is a distortion of our true will, freedom, sense of autonomy, and nature making us not totally free. Simple. God bless and remember Ephesians 3:14-22. He is better then you or I can imagine.
Another reductionist example is not thinking abortion is bad because an innocent life would go straight to heaven. Around 1:32:00+.
The Bible teaches annihilationism. Im actually Greek and have red the original texts in Koine, thats the most clear message i got from the more relevant passages. Well thats why the Bible doesnt make any sense (among many other ways), an all loving God will let you die if you dont believe him in person. Like, what? Universalism is nice, but all those streams of thought are basically very liberal interpretations of the texts, everyone making her/his own constructions based on whatever she/he liked/views the whole system.
Having said that, some streams of classical Orhodox Christianity were very neo-Platonic and had some similar ideas, or even had some ideas which are similar to religions from the East. Classical example was Origen who believed in re-incarnation of the sinners until their soul is cleansed, bringing to mind Hindus/Bhuddism etc. Not a Christian, but definitely sounded like a quite rational way to deal with this,. I could see how a rational God or a kind of cosmic justice would go on about that, like a trans-life accounting system of sin until a soul paid its' "debt".
The dominant Orthodox Christianity theological view is also interesting. According to that, there is no seperate Heaven or Hell, but Sinners will experience the all loving God as Hell. The metaphor is one of the sun, one gets warmth and living energy (e.g plants) , whereas another can burn from it. Ofcourse this view would logically lead to a kind of Universalism IMO, since, why wouldnt a Sinner at some time finally "see" the truth and accept God and love, that is repent post-mortem, hence changing her/his experience even in the afterlife to one of Heaven?
In any case, nice discussion.
🙏🙏🙏
I don't think that universalists have good responses to the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 (they have responses, but not good ones). But those of us who see the Bible as teaching Conditional Immortality do! I explain this in this 10-minute video: th-cam.com/video/oNmKlOUpo24/w-d-xo.html
Ey I'm a cis white male!
If you take a look at
John 14:6
New King James Version
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Doesn’t universalism provide another way other than Christ to come to the father?
No
@@CCiPencil how so?
@@christian865 because of scriptures like the one you quoted, among many many others. Most orthodox Christians universalist, that I’ve read and listened to, do not teach that there is any other way to the Father outside of Christ.
@@CCiPencil right that’s what I’m saying. So in the case of universalism if one dies without Christ they shouldn’t inherit the kingdom of God or be in his presence forever, correct?
@@christian865 forever? No, that’s where the disagreement is.
Ive watched the movie the shack and i really love it and there is also catholic priests that enjoyed watching that movie.Im trying to get more american christians across the country to watch the movie.❤️🔥💖✨
Great conversation, but I don't know about your comment around 1:59:00 about atheists coping and not being honest about not wanting to live forever. The thing that makes our existence precious is that it doesn't last forever. If your spirit or some incorporeal essence of yourself was still having experiences a million years after your death and annihilation was not an option for you, I think you'd have a very different opinion about wanting to live forever. Maybe it would take a million years, maybe longer but at some point everyone would start spending a large portion of their infinite time searching for the escape button. In the same way death is a mercy when pain becomes too great, annihilation is a mercy to a soul that just can't take existing anymore. I wonder would Andrew's merciful God grant annihilation to those who desire it?
The point about Andrew's universalism is that such a position renders the idea that anyone would grow tired of experiencing infinite bliss and wholeness impossible and incoherent.
I never felt that having a timer on my existence makes it "precious". I think that this is something which is repeated because it sounds good in a rethoric way but has no true meaning behind it. But I totally agree that continuing any form of existence that is anything remotely like this for eternity is a punishment. Furthermore I identify as a cathare: I believe whoever designed this universe is evil. So what you should suspect by now is that I have an extremely pessimistic view of this world. Nevertheless and besides my pessimism states of beeing that are agreable forever are logical possible. If you never have taken a drug and not know anyone who has you would not know alternate states of consciousness are possible. In the same sense we can not know if the state after death is something that we can "imagine" or predict based on our everyday experience. My second point is: If one like me believes that this universe is an enemy that actively tries make our lifes miserable the feelings you and me associate with boredom and depression could be something else than only a lack of something (a lack of truly new events/entertainment that many fear when trying to picture paradise). They could be a kind of active mind poisoning that makes you feel that even paradise would be bad or boring. Why should someone do this? Well it could be plain sadism. Or the "void" and boredom we all fear is in reality in the mind of the master of this universe and he uses us to fill it because he has zero own imagination or creative power. Many depressed people create extensive "escape phantasies" and this could be what the devil/demiurge harvest from his mind-farm here. No idea if that's true, it's just a speculation.
You overestimate human memory. Under the right circumstances most people would enjoy eternal existance I think.
Thank you for your responses, it's given me a lot to think about.
@user-vq6xc6zj5z :*( What a horrific worldview you believe. I don't mean YOU are horrible! But your worldview: it seems more fathomlessly terrible than even the black despair of logically rendered atheism :(
How could one look at a gorgeous sunset or a newborn baby or the incredible ingenuity and complexity of the human body and truly believe the Creator is sadistic and evil. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ shows that Abba is anything BUT those terrible things! I pray Holy Spirit opens your heart and mind to the Truth, sister. Much love from me!!
See all that discussion 11:00 on the contradiction between hell and a loving God, I think has the best refutation by "God works in mysterious ways", because if God has an infinitely complex mind, then perhaps his motivations for hell are just beyond our understanding. But actually now that I think of it, God could simply be irrational. I think most people assume God is perfectly wise and all this, but according to whose standard? If its the standard of an irrational being, then irrationality is maximally wise. Christians often claim God must be the source of their objective morality, and even praise the killing of children when Israel attacked the Canaanites for example (thanks Dr. William Lane Craig - yes really, he thinks that God did those kids a favour!! Because they get to go to heaven you see, so killing them was actually a good thing). So Christians can be hilariously backwards. So in that case we'd simply be screwed. But thankfully this is a bronze age belief system so chances are that any of this is true is pretty low especially when you look at the number of contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and prophecies that never took place in the bible. And for that reason its a little sad that people devote their lives to its study.
And it’s not just the eternity of it that’s horrendous, it’s the type of sin that gets you there, for example both masturbation and genocide send you to hell, probably more masturbation haha, for it seems religion is more at ease with killing than sexual sin.