Universal Salvation in Christ: A conversation with Fr Robin Parry
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มี.ค. 2022
- with Father Aidan Kimel
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In this video, Father Aidan Kimel interviews Father Robin Parry about his book 'The Evangelical Universalist' and other matters around the issue of apokatastasis (universal salvation).
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#theology #ChristianTheology #Christianity #salvation #Christ #apokatastasis #Orthodoxy #Evangelical #Evangelicalism #Bible
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Great interview.
I speculate that universalism is picking up steam because of the internet. People can look into what scholars say about the original Greek for themselves. People can text search the entire Bible and read articles (or watch videos) by scholars with different viewpoints.
We are only a couple decades (at most) from people sitting in a pew and just having to take their own pastor's word on whatever (regardless of denomination) because ordinary people did not have the tools to investigate further.
What a wonderful and thoughtful discussion about such truly profound and weighty matters. This conversation has allowed me to revisit chapters 20-22 of the Book of Revelation and ask as I read chapter 21 verses 25 -27, if the lake of fire judgement might be for the purpose of enabling every person there, that as they experience the severity of God's judgement by His holy fire, that at some point they may reach a brokenness and thereby finally become able to willingly bow the knee as stated in Philippians 2:9-11? I am beginning to see that the Love of God for humanity is so unlimited, that he is willing to wait as long as necessary ( i.e., forever) for each person in the lake of fire judgement to repent and by his/her personal will turn to Christ for mercy, and also have their robes washed in the "blood of the lamb" as those in Rev 7:14. And God's perfect will be done , 1Tim 2:3-4. I am more amazed than ever at how great the love of Almighty God is for His human creation after considering this possibility. Wow!! Glory to God forever and ever!! Glory to Jesus The Christ for ever and ever!!! AMEN!!!
It seems to me that infinite wisdom and goodness and power could bring about a better universe than the one of the infernalists, where probably most human beings end up being tormented forever. It is inconceivable to me that God could not have brought about a universe in which all are eventually saved.
yeh,,a god who claims to be loving but who ends up tormenting billions forever dont sound too bright does he ?
That sounds like the argument of Leibniz which Voltaire famously mocked. Now, I can't say that you're right. But if I have to stake my salvation (or even a $5 wager) on one or the other of these two men, I know it's not going to be Voltaire.
you forgot merciful so either annihilationism or universalism make more sense than eternal conscious torment.@@englandshope689 also the lake of fire is also called the 2nd death but it's interesting how the smelting process removes sulfur dioxide or "brimstone" just like the lake of fire. So, it becomes a refining process to remove impurities.
Thank you so much for responding with such good news! Your pastor is very courageous and what a blessing to hear that your fellowship is full of Bereans!
There is a gentleman in Faith, NC who started teaching the salvation more than a decade or so ago and had a similar exoerience.
I see the Lord waking up more and more to these truths!
Grace and peace to you.
For those who have struggled with God punishing for eternity the unrepentant in this short life span of ours, consider Eastern Orthodoxy's Bible understanding of Apokatastasis. Your love for God will grow even more. A recommendation! Ex Protestant now Orthodox lecturer Bradley Jerzak's book/UTube talks on 'A More CHRISTLIKE God.' It liberates Christianity from five centuries of Calvinistic/Fundamentalist human bias in Bible interpretation regarding judgement God's refining fire etc. Bless ALL who are seeking the true attribute of our Father God ...LOVE and justice met in the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.❤️
Such a good discussion - thank you!
Imo Man’s absolute perception (demand for absolute free will) gets in the way of God’s beautiful good and perfect will incorporated in all creation. The Gospel brings us to the place of God’s understanding and free will. Romans 7 makes it clear we refuse God as true and perfect goodness for our True Selves. God is ONE (uni) and so are we whether we choose to or not! Just IS!
One of the issues that keeps people from understanding we will all be reconciled is that the prophets are speaking of the destruction of the Jewish temple. That was the tribulation in Rev 1.19. If we understand the Millennial reign has already happened it would really help people understand there is no innialation.
Literal translation is so important. Also understanding what early church fathers believed is too, Augustine even said he was in the minority in his belief in the doctrine of eternal torment.
The musical analogy was apt in my view. If infernalism is true then the “symphony” of creation ends on a crashing dissonance instead of a perfect cadence. It’s as though Beethoven’s Fifth ends not with a resounding perfect cadence in c major but with the worst imaginable clash of different tonalities.
yep and infernalists seem ok with this awful ending
The best possible endings would include seeing Jesus dancing with my mother, my father, my daughters, and Hitler and Stalin...The Savior having overwhelmed the putrid weakness of sin and making pure and strong those who were made most low.
That's quite an image! Can we put Pol Pot in there too?
smelting gold removes impurities and releases brimstone just like the lake of fire. Fire and brimstone.
These are great interviews!
Another great conversation thanks for doing these
Excellent discussion. Thank you!
Who can know who god is ? It’s too awesome for our mortal minds to comprehend but I know someday I shall be as him in him part of the family of god
"For our God is a consuming fire."
in the context this has nothing to do with eternal hell fire. The passage is actually speaking to believers and warning them about their lives. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Read the chapter . it is telling the Christians not to give up under trials or discipline from God
@@carlnaitram6522 Thanks for the correction. But I don't smell smoke.
@@duncescotus2342 One of the studies in scripture that would help with understanding of this is the Kingdom of God/Millennium reign of Christ.
If you are interested in it check Grace Bible Church Barbados Kingdom series
@@carlnaitram6522 I'll check it out, but I smell Baptist Calvinism and I don't like it. I do like the smell of smoked things, however. Meats.
@@duncescotus2342 oh brother you are smelling sooo round . I believe Calvinism is one if the worse doctrines .
The kingdom truth answers the verses Calvinist make a mess of.
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. Thank you, gentlemen.
I think believers and non-believers alike become confused reading the Scriptures because we don't learn to take into account the historical context; audience relevance, and how to research in the original languages.
We see earthly verses as if they are speaking to eternity.
Finally, we see the Scriptures through the lens of man made dogma.
It took years for the Lord to show me that Christ is the Savior of all mankind. And several more to understand that Christ fulfilled all Scripture... the Law, prophets and Psalms.
My understanding is that Christ was victorious over sin, death and the grave.
And He's now seated at the right hand of God the Father. The Kingdom of God is the Father's.
My understanding is that we're not waiting on anything for Christ to do. He's done it all. We just believe that truth and share the reconciliation with others, living in love of God and others.
What a glorious God we serve! ❤
Great comment. I agree with everything you said. Over the last 10 years our pastor led his congregation away from believing hell is the destination of most of humanity for rebelling against him. It's been the most rewarding change of direction. God truly has saved humanity. It's a beautiful end for all. Most of my church agreed with our very courageous pastor and stayed, praise be to God!!
If we’re not waiting on Christ to come back, do you not think He will return again to bring righteous judgement? The current world seems to be full of evil
Christ returned in judgement in AD70. He judged apostate Israel and brought salvation by fulfilling the Law, prophets and Psalms.
The beautiful thing since Christ's finished work is that now when each of us die, we stand before the Lord. We know His judgements are righteous and for the purpose of refining us into the image of His Son.
@@loleki737 so what of the world and the Earth? Where is the new Heaven and Earth, where there is no weeping or pain?
Thanks for your response
God is love been caught up in his spirit all of his children are actually beautiful and good
Perhaps this is the quote Fr Kimel was looking for: Multitudes evidently count it safest to hold by a dull scheme of things: can it be because, like David in Browning's poem Saul, they dread lest they should worst the Giver by inventing better gifts than his? That we do not know, is the best reason for hoping to the full extent God has made possible to us (from Hope of the Universe by George Macdonald)
It is not Gods will that any should parish. If God knows everything, why would he ever have born those who would suffer eternity. I don't think God is a game player with souls.
amen
Why did Jesus say of Judas that it would have been better if he had never been born if Hades wasn’t real?
Notice that Robin Parry’s TH-cam videos offer no opportunity for viewers to give comments. As with every universalist, Parry thought the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable when it’s not a parable as Jesus never used a man’s real name in parables.
Anyone who is a universalist and who proclaims it publicly such that people hearing the message and end up in the lake of fire will receive a greater punishment! Keep your universalist falsehood to yourself, don’t shout it from the rooftop.
True. And to think that God could lose any soul to satan sounds silly. God is all powerful He doesn't lose. Glory be to God🙏🏾
Praise the Lord, Pope Francis has spoken the Truth in Love 💕 that there is no hell! AMEN!
@@waynesumner1829Yes there is - ín God, for a (long) while but not for ever. ❤
God shall not leave my soul in hell or separation from I am
You cannot believe that Jesus is the Saviour of the world and then when you read Revelation 20 believe that most people will be lost forever.
You cannot believe both doctrines simultaneously!
Here is the main fact.
Jesus is the Saviour of the world, so whatever doctrine you believe make it agree with that.
Refiners fire> in the PRESENCE of CHRIST and his angels(messengers)> to actually be in the tutelage of the TRUTH; impurities in the core sample will be burnt out, leaving precious metal.
No HELL fire> Hell is cast in to the Lake of Fire> So Lake of FIRE- FIRE.
The thing that's really holding me back is that if universal reconciliation were the teaching of the apostles, I would expect to see it more universally (pun intended) taught among the earliest church fathers.
apparently it was though wasn't it?
the majority of the earliest church fathers were in fact universalists; not all of them were 'offcially' confirmed to be, BUT once one actually reads their work & essays on historians and scholars who Have read their work then it stares you right in the face.
@@damiantrollope211 this view is nonsense ive decided. Hell is eternal
The Bible is vague and diverse enough that it can support multiple views.
Paul never mentioned hell once. If the consequence of sin was eternal torture, don't you think that would be the focal point of his ministry?
For those interested in a new and Orthodox way of looking at Christianity, please see The Real Christ by Bernadette Roberts.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways"...why do we think that the more we think about God's ways, the more we can get closer to His thoughts? It is just arguing amongst ourselves, just being clever in outwitting each other. Then feel good about how we now understand God.....
Better yet, why do we use "my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways" to justify burning most of the human race endlessly as an act of love or giving them what they chose
So should we not seek to understand Him?
If you take a bad road eventually you realize oops and realize I took the right path but the spooky path
what are the words spoken by robin at 2:44 they appear to be cut out anyone know?
"I became convinced that it was perfectly possible for God to bring about everyone freely accepting the gospel."
I think it's something like that. I've heard Parry tell his story before and it seems he used to think God couldn't woo everyone to himself without violating their free will. Once he was able to change his view on that, and believe that God could indeed bring everyone to believe in the gospel freely, it led him to a belief in universal reconciliation.
Ive become convinced hell is not eternal torture, none of it makes sense and the Bible seems to be saying unbelievers are effectively erased, which also makes the context of the teachings of Jesus and the logic of existence and purpose fit together. I don't know about universalism because at some point I wonder if I'm looking for what I want the Bible to be saying vs what its actually saying. What does it mean if I have the moral character of God written on my heart and I can't bare the idea of people being eliminated for failing to realize Christ is Lord in their short lives? Logically it sounds right and good and hopeful and loving that God would save all his children but in a way it seems like I arrive at that idea by my own feeling of what would be best and not because the Bible is clearly stating it.
I have to admit I feel confused about why the Bible seems intentionally vague on all of this, not detailing exactly what will happen in no uncertain terms, rather choosing apocalyptic symbolism and parables. For something so important as to potentially being roasted in fire for infinite time or annihilated, why isn't FAR FAR more said about it with intricate detail? Why is this something that even needs to be speculated on? Is there a point or purpose in our having to discern it?
I'd like to say, "well it doesn't matter, I'll find out" but then I have some Christians saying, if you believe this false doctrine on hell, you're a heretic, not saved, and will burn. So now I'm going to go to one of these versions of hell for incorrectly discerning which of them is the correct Biblical hell?
No one is saved or damned based on their opinion/belief of what hell is. Only belief in Jesus Christ or disbelief is what determines it
@@NickSandt Yes thats true.
please study the meaning of the Greek word translated everlasting. Also the Hebrew word Olam .
it has to do with duration of time.
I love Robin Perry but 'we can imagine a better God' is a really bad argument. For example, my brother (who has left the faith) says that he can imagine a God who creates free creatures that never sin. Just because you can imagine something doesn't actually make it possible or coherent.
I don’t think it’s possible for God to instantly create free beings who never sin. That’s the view Talbott hold’s also. He puts forward his case very forcefully in his book, ‘The Inescapable Love of God.’
@@bradleyhooper1408 you're engaging with my example but not with the point I was making.
A lot of theology is just guesswork to begin with though, is it not? The authors of scripture just wrote down what they believed or thought made sense.
We are under delusion since the fall.
age to come refers to the 1000 years reign of the Lord Jesus
so that's why the pharisees would not be forgiven in the "age to come" so for Christ's millennial reign which could mean his heavenly reign they would not be forgiven during that time. I'm not sure but I'm starting to believe that the blasphemy of the holy spirit may have been only a sin that could've only be done by people who were alive while Christ was here because they actually saw the miracles the works of the holy spirit so there was no denying that it was supernatural, and they attributed it to satan.Theres a lot of people who are so worried that they've done this sin and it would help so many to learn that their worry can be a form of repentance and would set them free of it because the hardened hearts of the pharisees they wouldn't worry or care what they did at that point. So, if you're worried about it don't worry trust in God.
@@marcusmuse4787 yes you are. Much of the New testament promises and warnings refer to the 1000 reign if Christ. Eternal salvation relates to the new heaven and new earth which one receives by faith.
The works related passages refer to service and sanctification of the saved and relates to the 1000 kingdom reign if Christ. If people understand this principle then the would not have the fears of losing their salvation but rather the desire to serve God faithfully so they can hear The Lord say to them WELL DONE THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT THOU HAS BEEN FAITHFUL OVER A FEW THINGS I WILL MAKE YOU RULER OF MANY THINGS ENTER THOU INTO THE JOY OF THY LORD
" NOW IS THE TIME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS "
Read John 3:36 in your Bible
Check out. # I WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN
Life is short !
Gods mercy is from everlasting.
Even in sheol (the grave) you (God) will be with me
outer darkness does not mean hell. It is a state of suffering the agony of not being in the wedding feast. it literally means outside of the light. .. Refers to the Believer in 1Cor 3 11-16 . Whose works are burnt. the unfaithful believer
The eternal punishment in Mtt 25: 46 is what Revelation says; "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever." This passage is talking about the torment of their dead works being burnt off, not the person themselves. As Paul says, "they themselves will be saved only as one passing through the flames. So Pauls passage here is a strong case for universalism and the restoration of all things.
It is shocking and extremely off-putting to hear Robin Parry flippantly and coldly call John A.T. Robinson "a well-known heretic". Aidan Kimel could only awkwardly laugh.
@Jonny Jona Unfortunately, I don't think it was. And even if so, it is a bad joke.
@@michaell1425 It was obviously a joke. Parry has cited Robinson positively in some of his presentations.
@@markdaniels1730 I hope you are right but I do not think you are. He often throws around the term heretic when speaking of unitarian Christians.
@Jonny Jona it was a joke
@@michaell1425 life in the Milenial Kingdom. That lasts 1000 years.
So Jesus’s death was for nothing if everyone is going to be saved??
Quite the opposite, actually! Universalists believe Christ's death was for all, and therefore all can be saved. Through Adam all die, through Christ all live. "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." Romans 5:18
@@becky6644 but the word “All” doesn’t mean every individual. The Greek word is “pas”, it is all men from every tribe, race, red, yellow white etc. not every individual.
@@teachmetruth3539 so the transations I have seen and heard do actually mean "all". However, I'm no expert in greek so let's say for the sake of argument that the meaning of the word is more ambiguous. Even if that is the case, the same word is used to describe the "all" subjected to death and the "all" saved through christ. People switch it up and interpret the same word differently half way through the sentence, but the most consistent way to understand the verse is either to say that many (not all) were subject to death, and that many (not all) are saved, or to say that all were subject to death and all are saved. Obviously this is not the only argument for (or against) universalism, but to return to your original point, universalists don't view Christ's death and resurrection as being in vain, rather it is how anyone (and everyone) is saved.
Jesus death was not for nothing. Even though everyone will be saved eventually they still have to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. Makes sense?
@@NickSandt No, not every individual will be saved. All men will be saved but not every individual. Red, black yellow, brown (all men) but not every individual will be saved. You universalists sure like to have your ears tickled. I hope even some of you will see the truth and the lies of universalism.
What about this?:
◄ Matthew 25 ►41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
did u listen to Parry's explanantion of this ?..seems not
Read the context. It is clear to full preterists such as myself, that this was fulfilled in 70 AD.
Hmm I wonder why the fire isn't eternal but the life is 🤔
Very simple: it was a human idea written down by a fallible human.
Let's assume it's all true though. It may be that the fire itself is what lasts forever, not necessarily that the person will stay there forever.
It could FURTHERMORE be that the fire/punishment itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It may be intended to correct and renew your character, not necessarily to torture you without end or purpose.
@@mattr.1887 all of that is so loving, merciful, kind, forgiving etc.etc.
This place is like Alice in wonderland guess who is behind the curtain oh George Soros for one
How random.
copium/hopium
Christ is not Jesus. Jesus became THE CHRIST. Christ is the power. Jesus is the pattern. The Christ consciousness is available to all no matter when you lived or where you lived.
Lol 😆 no free will according to that guest unless the argument is that God finally releases people from the inability of practicing free will due to deception or bondage
It is okay to ask questions and admit you don’t understand something. It is how we all learn.
If, as you say, "God finally releases people from the inability of practicing free will due to deception or bondage", then still they at least had free will prior to that. But I believe you have misunderstood Parry. As I understand him, he believes we have free will. If someone, ex hypothesi, were to reject God forever, then they would not be doing so freely. They could only reject God forever because they no longer had the minimal rationality required to make a free choice. If a person continually places their hand in a fire, we do not say they are freely doing so. We deem they have lost their free will in the matter. There is something wrong with their mind, or will. Likewise, if someone were to forever reject God it would be even more irrational than continually placing your hand in a fire. So it is simply impossible for a person to forever reject God as a matter of real, free choice.
rhb30001 is exactly what’s wrong with contemporary discussions on this issue. One side is currently making a much greater effort overall (with exceptions) of understanding its opposition.
@@michaell1425 so everyone will choose to be saved eventually since that is the only way that someone has free will… I thought the Bible speaks of a probationary period that ends when He comes again since the mode of Gods Spirit has a different effect on humanity after Jesus no longer mediates on fallen mans behalf …
@@rhb30001 Yes, according to Parry everyone will eventually freely choose God. Some will need more punishment/disclipine than others, but all will eventually make the right choice, or rather, series of choices. If despite conitinual efforts from God in which he makes it more and more clear to a person that choosing God is the only rational choice, the person did not choose God, then that would only be possible if the person had lost their rational ability -- again, like a person who continually places their hand on a stove, despite receiving overwhelming indications that this is not a rational thing to do. As for your interpretation of the Bible, I for one do not recognize what you describe as the teaching of the Bible. Paul makes it unmistakably clear in passages like Rom 5:12ff, Rom 11:26ff, 1 Cor 15:20ff, Phil 2:6ff, Col 1, Eph 1, etc., etc. that Jesus will only cease to mediate on fallen man's behalf, as you put it, after he has reconciled every single human being to God. At this point, Jesus himself will subject himself to God, so that God is all in all (1 Cor 15:28).
The problem with universalism is that of it’s true it means Hitler, Stalin, and Mao will be in Heaven along with serial killers, rapists, and sadistic Nazi prison guards