I cannot tell u how much u going into all that detail was so crucial… I have about 30 friends who i’ve gotten to watch ur show over the years. These guys always ask ME to explain things like this, that u guys talk about… They were almost all, texting me, remarking how much your explanation really helped them, understand something they never knew. So please keep doing that. Others, who know what u r talking about, can just ff. But for the many who have no idea, it super helps!! Cheers mate! 👍🏻
That’s awesome! You are doing your bit to spread the info and that is the only way we as a community will keep on evolving things in the cruising world for everyone no matter the experience level. We really appreciate your contribution! Stay awesome!!
I have always believed in safety first and totally agree with your choice! Having the ability to lift your rudder and fold your keel to tuck into the groves for safety is definitely worth the extra funds spent. The added bonus is putting her on the sandy beach and having a sandbox as your backyard. 👏👏 You both are building the perfect catamaran with your well thought out choices and the expertise of Portofino. When completed she will be carving a new path in the catamaran industry and every manufacturer will find themselves redesigning to reach the same quality as Portofino! Well done my friends! 😊❤
John & Eli, you have opened a can of worms, now I want to change my mind and get a keel and rudder that lifts up...thanks for the expert analysis and pros and cons of both. I hope we get to meet you on the water someday. I look forward to seeing your new boat and how it fairs in shallow waters. Such a cool ability to beach you boat... Thanks again for sharing and please be safe.
Thanks Jibe Talking for your kind words! because we have sailed so much using that system, we know how well it works and we did seriously feel like our throats were cut with fixed keels in the Bahamas!
Hi guys, I just absolutely love you both. Just so much fun and wonderful to be a round. Thank you for all the information you gave it absolutely fantastic. Keep up the good work guys. Really appreciate your both. Cliff from Logan City Queensland Australia 🇦🇺
Love the fun and informative presentation, and it’s easy to be convinced of the benefits. Our inland lake sailer is a Hobie Getaway, and I love being able to tell the boys to hang on tight and then sail the cat right up into the beach with her flip up rudders and zero concerns for damaging her rotomolded mini keels. We aspire to the cruising lifestyle for more than a week or two a year, and it’s given us something to chew on, as what seems to be currently in our budget is GRP with fixed keels….sigh.
Haahaa! In my “starter marriage” we sailed and cruised protected waters in a Farrier 27’ trimaran, with lifting daggerboard and kick up rudder. Though the accommodation was more like camping than cruising, it is, as you say, hard to go back in performance from 10knott averages and a .4M draft. I can’t imagine being in anything but a multihull from here on out, unfortunately. My wife and family loved our charter experience this past summer on a Seawind 1160, and hopefully we can find a boat to fit our planned program and growing boys in a couple of years time. I’ve really grown to enjoy the mix of locations, tech and cruising tips you so joyfully share with your audience each week. You guys have become one of my “go to” channels when I need a virtual sailing fix, and it’s piqued my wife’s interest in Turkey in a really good way also. Thank you for that! Best of luck on the completion of your wonderful yacht! It’ll be amazing to see the completed boat and the incorporation of all of your years of experience and thought into the project.
Thanks Team, more reinforcement that choices must be based on your personal priorities, wholly agree there is no right or wrong. Appreciated the insights you shared, gained from real experiences across very different designs. Thank you.
Your years of sailing catamarans and attention to detail shows well in your design of P52. I have no doubt in my mind, anyone looking into buying or building a new cat, will be looking for similar features as your cat. I would if I ever had a chance in doing so. But, for now I am immensely happy with my Island Packet 380 as my first step into sailing. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. much love to you both
Thanks for your kind words Mansour and enjoy sailing your island package 38. The most important thing is to get out there and enjoy the time that you have on the water and with every boat and trip you get more experience and confident. Enjoy!
I’m a traditional monohull sailor, however being able to properly beach your boat in bad weather is truly a game changer. Btw Hill Inlet is the best place in the world but you’re lucky because very few people can get there haha. For top end Australia I think you might have the perfect boat. I’ll be looking forward to the sailing videos and the sea kindliness of your boat. Every boat has its pros and cons. Getting the balance right is important. We just sailed from Cadiz to Barbate, 36nm with 30k wind on the nose and a cross swell. Forecast was 25 beam reach. The shoals and fishing nets plus the orca issue meant we sailed in less than 20m the whole way tacking around fishing nets. Thankfully it was over after 5 hours but I’m not sure a catamaran would have even managed it. How does a cat cope when the forecast is wrong. I agree with your daggerboard comment too. If anyone is in doubt just go sail a laser or any high performance dinghy down wind with a full centreboard and it will trip you up very quickly. Ok I’m not saying never but I’m watching with interest, certainly in my dotage cruising Australia I could go cat. 🤪 🦅
Understand however what it always comes down to is. To each their own. Many know what opinions and a certain body parts have in common. Like how this beautiful couple explains what they like of different options.
The OG ally cats are the Mumby 48 footers. Daggerboards, kick up rudders, light & fast. Check out Jamie on Jupiter II - he has a build video, pros and cons and even an interview with the camera shy designer.
Thanks Skeet, yes we have seen most of their videos and knew the Mumbys before we found the Portofino - the are really good high performance boats! The issue for us was some of the other features we were looking for were not available in the Mumby so we had to look elsewhere...
I have never been sailing, but if I were to get a boat, I would be keen on a shallow draft catamaran. I love the idea of being able to walk out on the beach as well as be safe from swell and storm. Great vid!
Large Wharrams are frequently built with drop down ladders or nets ... So you can beach them and walk down onto the shore or into the sea ...or land or launch a small boat even underway ..
@barefootdoctors we really apreciate your videos, very educational. We are looking very much into the market and areagreeing with you guys on a lot of points. Looking forward to see new details and progress on the 52.
I remember your video from a year or two ago about the benefits the shallow draft. I was absolutely sold on the prospect of being able to go where other’s could not. I can’t wait for you to get your Portofino 52 and take us on wonderful video adventures! Timeline for delivery? Cheers!
Good to hear you have been following us long enough to know we repeated ourselves!!! We just have heard several channels making comments that miss the important points, we wanted to repeat them with more impact!
Sail like what??? …fun video, been following for a while… fell in love with aluminum cats with Elsa, but I cant find her now… Ketch rig, forward cockpit… You may recall her from years ago… when will you be afloat in your new Aluminum Cat???
That is a Debilliers 62 design cat and the name was changed to Sea Catcher or something like that when she was sold. Check out Devilliers website and you will see her there… Our launch will be about March this coming year - can’t wait!
An excellent lesson with many arguments about which keel design best meets personal needs. But I would like to ask about capsizing. I understood the importance of the daggerboard to reduce the risk. One issue that I consider important is reducing the center of gravity. I have seen projects with ballast compartments in the bow and stern of the boat, to increase the weight and avoid rocking in a sea with high waves. Have you ever seen a project with water ballast boxes in the bow and stern? I wish you favorable winds and a great trip.
Hi Joel, hobby horsing (rocking forward and aft) is reduced with weight in the bow but it is better achieved with hull shape modification and cats perform best with weight centralised so the bow lifts easily if it ever diggs under waves. For capsize risk, I have never seen water ballast used as the weight of the boat is the thing that is usually designed to prevent capsize. So a heavier cat is less likely to capsize than a light one but then the high speed performance is affected so there is a compromise here - we will do a whole episode on this in the near future as there are some one sided arguments being put out and several hight end TH-cam channels that have been freaked out by the sailing of light cats across oceans (and ended up with anxiety issues as a result, it seems...)
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I have seen this idea of using ballast on old catamarans, such as the WHARRAM Catamarans, which are made of wood and have a certain flexibility in their structure. The purpose of filling the hulls with water ballast during a powerful storm allowed the waves to pass over the hulls and not affect stability. After the storm, the ballast is emptied and the boat can sail again at a good speed due to weight reduction. I am waiting for the next video!
Love your explanation and on the end it’s choice and wallet size 😊. But have to say, from all new builds which in the moment in planing or build your portofino is the most practical one…… in my eyes.😊 can’t wait for next week!
Thanks Juergen! Obviously we agree that the P52 is the most practical one but we are biased because it has all the features that WE want!!!! Nobody else could or would do them and it was really good that Raffaele at Portofino was able to put his engineering skills to use and design all the systems to make it work!!
Good discussion folks and as others have mentioned, it comes down to personal choice and what people are looking to get out of their boats, me always a monohull so no discussion needed.
Hi John and Eli, again thank you for your informative video. I still wonder about the Portofino 52 swing keel, bare bottom design. As you know dagger boards go up and down in the same pivot point in the hull. It would seem that swing keels either need to be fully up or fully down so as not to affect the pivot point and sailing dynamics. Could this this be a problem, I would appreciate anybody's thoughts. I also wonder if fixed keellets (for lack of a better word) of no deeper than say 150mm to provide a landing point for the hulls when you dry out or are slipped in less than ideal circumstances. One unforeseen rock or uneven sand between ribs may still dent the reinforced hull. Any thoughts? Please keep us all up to date with your intended splash/yard tour dates in Dubia in early 2025. Thank you for all of your effort to get these fantastic video out each week.
Hi Adam thanks for your comments. In relation to the use of the centreboards half or minimally up, this will only be used when sailing on a square Reach and the centre of rotation is a little importance at that time. In relation to the option of a mini Keel, we always look at the sand as the boat is starting to beach as in 6 inches of water or so and make sure that there are no rocks coral or uneven surfaces that will scratch or damage the Hull at that point is very easy to manually pull the boat sideways or forwards or backwards as the need arises. Obviously this aluminium is 20 or 100 times stronger than my epoxy and WoodPerformance cat and we had no troubles with that over the 20 year period. It is true that the anti-foul on the bottom section wears out a touch faster But the small area has very little consequence overall. At this stage we expect to launch in February but we will let everybody know closer to the time when the actual date will be. Nice to have you along for the ride I’m glad you’re enjoying the information.
Very thorough explanation Docs. What are your thoughts on the Seawind 1190 sport with dagger boards and lifting rudders and outboard engines that can also be tilted up? Only drawback I can see is that it may be a tad small for a full time live aboard and some people question how much cavitation would result when motoring in rough seas. Your feedback would be appreciated.
Sea winds are great boats and we’ll thought out. 1190 would be fine for a couple to live aboard but it is on the small side for big seas if you are doing ocean crossings. We had outboards on our 42 footAlba Dash and our props lifted out the water in big swell but the boat still made way ok - just really annoying but rare. Hope that helps
Great video guys 🙂 We reckon have the best of both worlds on our 9.7 Ton 46 foot Performance Cat.. Rehab.. Very shallow 200 to 300mm deep but long 5M keels that protect our Carbon fibre Rudders and also Dagger boards for going up wind. We get to sail up wind at 30 to 35 degrees apparent and also have the luxury of a reasonably shallow 960mm draft and we can beach !
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Rehab is a 14M (46ft) x 7.6M Roger Hill (New Zealand) design and built to a very high standard with Foam Core/Epoxy and Carbon where it counts. 9 7 Ton Light Ship. She is an exceptional offshore performance adventure cruiser 🙂
Great video. Excited to see your new boat on the open sea! It’s going to be amazing. Will Portifino make your design their standard offering in the near future?
Hi Hex, thanks for the comment and yes, the Portofino 52 is the main boat being produced by Portofino now as there are so many extra features.... They will be looking at making some large cats too as they have been asked to make some larger new designs too....
I’m a traditional monohull sailor, however being able to properly beach your boat in bad weather is truly a game changer. Btw Hill Inlet is the best place in the world but you’re lucky because very few people can get there haha. For top end Australia I think you might have the perfect boat. I’ll be looking forward to the sailing videos and the sea kindliness of your boat. Every boat has its pros and cons. Getting the balance right is important. We just sailed from Cadiz to Barbate, 36nm with 30k wind on the nose. Forecast was 25 beam reach. The shoals and fishing nets plus the orca issue meant we sailed in less than 20m the whole way tacking around fishing nets. Thankfully it was over after 5 hours but I’m not sure a catamaran would have even managed it. How does a cat cope when the forecast is wrong.
Thanks for the story and yes cats can sail upwind if they are designed well and esp with daggerboards. Once on our 42 foot cat we had to sail 100nm directly to windward in 30 knots in Vanuatu to get a crew member to a plane flight (never get trapped like). The boat managed it but it was just very horrible bashing into the 3 m waves at a steady 6 -6.5knots..... Out Leopard performs well upwind too but certainly Lagoons and Balis would not be able to do that...
Interesting episode. I have no opinion on shallow hulls vs fixed keeled boats. But I am interested in seeing how you make out with your in contrast with oh say the, Wynes's HH44. It is fun to watch and cool to see where everyone goes and what you experience. Thanks for letting me tag along!😊
Hi Kevin, yes, thanks for the feedback and we always wonder why these features are not in more boats but it's probably because the brands do not want to go to that much trouble....
We are really liking this concept of shallow draft catamarans, But, what about the propellor and shaft etc.,? How do you ensure that you won't be sitting on the prop and damaging it. On a perfectly flat sandy area it seems safe, but won't you get irregular surface features and rocks that will rise up and crush your prop?
Thanks Colleen, that is a natural concern bu the boat is designed for the prop and shaft to be above the sand level and because we are sitting the boat in 2 feet of water, we walk around it and look at it AND FEEL IT as the tide is dropping to make sure the sand is soft with no sharp coral or rocks esp just under the sand to damage the boat or props... Very easy really!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ...excellent point. We hadn't thought about rocks just under the sand. Figured if it looked like sand it would be safe but for sure checking to make sure that there isn't a hidden rock right under the surface of the sand is a great idea!
Love you channel, great information! The unique boat that I ever saw was a cross between a Wharren bottom and caterman top that some fellow Sailer was building. Now there's a rudder or two that can be said about that! er Canadian sense of humor talking
We are looking at having some fold up seats / loungers up there but are still looking at exactly where the solar is going and what area we can easily use... We'll keep you informed on that one - lower priority at present so we have not gone back to finalise that one till we can see the roof.
Fixed kell, vs dagger bords vs. foldable fins. Its like Toyota Landcruiser vs. Volvo XC90 vs. Range Rover Vougue. Things can and probably will go wrong with a Range Rover but I love them anyway. Also, its the most capable in the terrain.
I'm completely with u both, really there just is no comparison, the lifestyle of folding rudders and lifting keels is a world away from fixed keels an rudders, the options u have with shallow drafts is simply common sense in my opinion. Good luck to Delos and others. Plukkys got it going on. Can't wait to have so much fun in the sun and sand on Eli-gence 1. Love u both, great vlog, though I'm not sure we can convert to stay hards. 🇦🇺👍💯💜there's no way the 52 will flip, not with all those shoes, hey Eli😘 thank You for the mention, I feel very special. Lets just be brutally honest, the 52 is a complete package, ground breaking inovation, functional architecture, and above all the highest safety considerations implemented. I say folding, lifting and tucking it away, too Easy💯
Ok John now I think I'm starting to understand your relationship with Eli, kudos to the you guys and I hope you get the Cat of your dreams from Portofino, ciao, ciao . . .
I’m on the Odisea line (build begins next month). It’s not really a mumby. Essence of, yes. But the team has really evolved the mumby into something else.
HI Kodiak, congrats on getting an Odisea!!! Very exciting! Our good friends, Ruth and Colette are also on the build line so we are very excited to see their boat get launched! Yes we know lots about the Odisea as wehad a chat with the Odisea team and went through all the details before we committed to Portofino.We know that they have improved the design to get it to CE certification standards and engineering strength levels. We were trying to not make it too complicated for the "normal" folk while giving the background of the design.
H IBIll, interesting question! I do not know that inlet but we would take it into Noosa river (which I suspect would be similar... All we would need in say 1m depth at high tide with a bit extra if there is swell to get over any bar. If there are running waves or big swell you need more water or you will bottom out...
Great arguments, with valid points, I think your boat is going to be perfect for how you use it. Obviously, all boats are compromises and one choice may lead to another. Personally, I do not like dagger boards, swing keel seems a much better option. My biggest concern with beaching any boat is the rudder construction.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Well it needs a very solid bottom structure, A builder cannot just add it as an extra. Its a structural component with lots to think about for when it goes wrong, making sure it never leaks etc.
Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK. One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels still work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht. I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues.
hi Simon, you are so right - outboards (esp diesel ones) are great options for using to dry out with or without mini keels. I sailed a bilge Keeler monohull in the UK in my young days too so fixed keel cats work really well there too!
Our rudder is not in the sand So the boat will just slide sideways. We also have a stone anchor out the back as well to hold both stable as we bottom out and sit down on the sand. We usually set the bow and stern anchor for the direction of the wind when the tide is coming in not for the direction of the wind as we are sitting down on the sand.
Can I steal (or pay the royalties) about your way to speak when you interpreted a witch saying "Come With Us"?.....it was been really funny. 😂😂😂 Anyway. Thanks a lot for your suggestions and keep going on. Your follower Marco.
At the end of the day it’s down to personal choice, I got a boat to go in the water not land. But I get your point on dodging storms, I like being bounced around, I’m just weird like that. I sleep better when there is movement.
Absolutely Paul - there is no right or wrong, just different choices from personal preference so hopefully we will both be happy and both you and Eli sleep well! I always sleep well, even in storms so Eli is the waking up and worrying person....
I love the underwater sunnies Eli !!! I''l be back in an edit after the rest of the show. Edit: So, I've sailed boats with and without lifting dagger boards and others with swing centre boards but nothing with a fixed keel unfortunately. I would go with a swing centreboard. What I want to know is...since most cruisers rarely clean their hulls, how easy will I t be to get a brush or something similar up into the centreboard case ato clean not only the board, but the case and mechanism that works it? Or will this only be possible when you haul it out? Great video John and Eli, I think you covered all the points necessary. Will you centreboard be Al too?
Thanks Garth for all the points and yes our centreboard is aluminium and buoyant (air inside), cleaning he slot can be done in the water or when lifted out and will be done with a paint scraper if there are tough barnacles or sponge/ scotchbrite/ brush if soft algae. Raffa is designing an electronic growth suppressor for the slot too.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 WOW, I like the idea of an electronic growth suppressor. Can you ask him to build one for me...eternal life here I come! 🤣🤣🤣
Great topic choice, I think you just might rekindle an old argument here lol. Personally I'm designing an 80ft Trimaran, as a friend once told me, get a boat with enough room to hang your toothbrush! Haha. Anyway, the first things that I insisted on were a very shallow draft, center boards and lifting rudders. With technology available now like the SEA sentry camera and farsounder, you are very safe from obstacles, floating, submerged and bombies alike. So the argument about hitting things is pretty mute with modern tech. The benefits you get from a no stress night during a storm, parties on the beach, calm time at a rolly anchorage. It's just pure heaven! Plus keeping yourself and your boat safe during major storms can and has been a life and boat saver, it's no joke! Many years ago I cruised the East coast of Aus, spending over a year in Nth Qld, on a monohull. I cannot tell you the number of times we were so envious of multihulls simply parking on the beach like a Sunday afternoon picnic while we were rolling around totally uncomfortable. These things you never forget LOL. So YES, I completely agree with everything you said and well done for bringing it up. Cheers guys 🍻🍻
Hi 3/24, thanks very much for your story that confirms what I was trying to share - and hopefully any other skeptics will read your info too! Good luck with your 80 footer - please tell us more about it and if you have any timeframes / plans / designs etc!!!
On a shallow draft boat would it be possible to raise/lower the keel on command from the depth sonar? Yes, you would do it manually, but as a safety feature if the depth sounder discovers it is shallower then the set it has an auto raise feature to try to prevent grounding? Additional expense sure, but less possible damages?
Great idea Robert and with an electric motor as on the P52 that would be possible. In reality, you always know when you are heading into shallow water (or should know) and in reality the delay in the sonar saying it is 3m sailing at 8 knots and the motor to rasise the centreboard kicking in, I think you would hit anyway! That is also the trouble with forward looking sonar - great principle but it only works effectively at slow speeds eg under 4 knots, I am told when you are motoring or sailing slowing in shallow water...
Thanks David. Drag would be the same as that is related to thickness and length of the keel. We were certainly happy when Portofino could make the centreboard system work!
One risk with centre boards is the case getting jammed with mud. So think about how it could be pressure washed. On the Gemini it took a couple of hours to clear. After boat was hauled out.
Interesting problem Simon, we never had that with our 42 footer but perhaps there was more space in the daggerboard case to move it around a bit. When it was not used for months and barnacles grew inside the case, we had to swim under and scrape them out but when in use, this never happened... Never had mud trouble but perhaps in the UK there is more mud and if it dries, perhaps it just became solid...
I see this differently. We have had both a fixed keel catamaran and centreboards. The key issue is hull protection if you are going to beach the boat. Mini keels provide protection to the hull from puncture from sharp objects as the keels lifts the hull clear of the seabed. We used to always like to get close to the beach with our cat, but over the years, we realised that any dodgy moments we had were always associated with being so close to shallow water. A wind shift spinning the boat onto the beach. We then started anchoring in 5 metres of water where we felt safer, the same as monohulls. When the weather starts to do funny things, you have a little more time before things go wrong. In addition, being so close to the beach is normally buggy. Anchor off a little, and there is better breeze and fewer bugs. When you have a good dinghy with a big engine, you really don't need to be on the beach with your cat
Hi Timevans c Thanks for your comment. We hear what you are saying and you are correct in what you have said. We have too been bumped around from time to time. But all things considered the ability to beach or not is your choice depending on conditions,Tides, timeframes. If it’s looks like it’s best to swing off the pick while weather may be changeable that is your call or choice also. But when those conditions are stable there is nothing like it!!! Cheers
I totally agree with your arguments for a swinging centerboard. HOWEVER, one question I've never heard a good answer to is, why there can't just be one swinging centerboard in the centerline under the bridgedeck (i.e. out of the water when not used)? It would be such a simple construction without a keelbox and only Dynema lines (above water) to fix it in place. Easy to fix when broken, no threat to hull integrity and no antifouling required either. Obviously the centerboard would be surface piercing when in use, creating some extra drag, but how much? PS. The solution actually already exist on some smaller cats.
Wow, that sounds like an interesting idea, Martin. My main concern would be to know if the mechanics with the lines holding it in place would be strong enough to hold it stable - it woudl be good to get an engineer to see if the forces can be managed and possibly use part of the underwing to stabilise the top 3 feet of it... Patent it if it can work!....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I'm sure your Portofino guys can make the calculations. In some ways, your design has less side support since all the lateral forces are absorbed by a very small top part of the centerboard....!?
Hey guys....little bit of misinformation there. My 62' Cat design Sealegacy1 (ex Elcie) had a shallow draft of 3' (925mm) with daggerboards raised. And she does not have the complication/risk of pivoting/lifting rudders. Our approach is to provide a bullet-proof, solid skeg ahead of the fixed rudder eg. Delos 2.0, Nahoa 55 and other forthcoming De Villiers Cat designs. This has been a feature since the launch of the 62' Cat back in 2008 and is now proven on that boat for ~120 000 nautical miles.
Our apologies David and we’re very honoured that you watch our videos! We were only comparing fixed keels with shallow draft and clearly your Sealegacy falls into the shallow draft category and as we have not been looking at cats that big, our references were only meant to relate to the “smaller” boats that are in production. However we would love to see the design and we are happy to correct our omission in future episodes. The main point for us was to share our great experiences of the benefits of shallow draft as most folk seem unaware of them. Hopefully you will sell many Sealegacy type designs in the future as a result… Ps my email is jmcintsh@tpg.com.au if you are happy to share that 62 design please!
I’d love to know the range just under power that your boat is capable of? As well as speed as there’s often no wind and I’d want something that can motor 8 knots and do 1000nm ideally.
Hi Beca, when we have the boat operating we will be able to exactly measure the fuel consumption and therefore the range but with 1000L at 3L/hour at 7 knots (conservatively) we would motor 2333nm or 2000nm at 4L/hr so plenty of range.
Sailing Jupiter has a Mumby with the kick up rudders, watching them in action on their great loop was cool.(not the rudder strikes, but the lack of damage from them)
Yes, when you see the benefits in action, you understand it a lot more but when you sail with them and enjoy the full benefits (if you know to use them) it is even better!!!
I see that Delos 2.0 has skegged propellers. I vaguely remember a designer/manufacturer that created a lift-able propeller shaft (I assume they had some sort of universal joint). That design is more complex and certainly heavier, but it would make me more comfortable than a boat with dangling props (even if they are above the draft).
family friend had a cat with a long shaft outboard mounted center of the bridge deck. Conceptually like the common engine configuration on wharrams. Theres a dude working on a wharram in europe atm bringing it back from the dead, hast the same concept but with 2 outboards
Yes our prop will be skegged too but will less keel around it for better prop performance. Moving shaft is interesting and of course for smaller cats, outboards are the effective and easy way out!
I grew up on a 40' trimaran and we had it tidal moored most of the time. I'm building a Mumby Cyber 48 and love the design but want to make some mods to make it easily bleachable. sometimes at low tide being able to drive the 4x4 to it really make sense to me also sailing a shallow harbour on an incoming tide with a soft bottom is great
Absolutely agree and a man after our own hearts! Good luck with your Mumby Cyber 48 build!!! Send us a photos and happy to chat! drjohnmcintosh@tpg.com.au
Centerboard maintained is below the waterline , the open long & large open trunk slot for Marine growth! Additionally, the board hangs on a single bolt pivot!
Yes Norman that is right on both points. If you Have seen our earlier video where we are showing the manufacturing of the pivot bolt you will see it is a huge strong structure and will not be addressed of breaking. Because the Kyaw case is shallow on a centreboard it will be easier to clean the van on a dagger board which is long and very high although it is only ever the below watermark points that grow algae and barnacles. Portifino has also designed an electronic Aldi suppression system that will work in the centreboard case to suppress growth and work with the anti-foul. Hopefully that will keep it clean and not create too much work for us
Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK. One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht. Re engines I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues. I also like the Seawind 1190. The blade rudder seems a good fix. It potentially allows a spare rudder to be carried.
Hi again Simon and the Seawinds are great boats with excellent use of internal space - very innovative in their day. And yes the diesel outboard would be great!
Im a huge swing keel fan. I live on a Southerly 135 which has a swing keel and a grounding/balast plate, with a 3 foot draft keel up and 10ft draft keel down. I haven’t done much traveling yet, but it is full on next year. One thing I suggest for those Cats that opt for the fixed keel is that those keels should be made to be able to fill with water without sinking the boat. Ie they should be completely outside the water tight and structural envelope of the hulls. It’s so sad to see cats on the reef and sunk because of holes in their keels or failure of the rudders, where instead they should be able to survive a “reefing” fairly well. A shredded Cat keel should not sink the vessel.
Hi again Bill, you are right in that the fixed keels on cats should be watertight from the hulls. I think the Delos one would be because they are storing water there and if if holed, the water will just be mixed with seawater but not get into the hull. The disasters you are used to seeing is the fibreglass boats that just fall apart when the hit rocks, the keeps just tear off completely leaving big holes in the hull that will fill faster than the pumps can control it... Hopefully the damage in aluminium will be dents of only small holes that can be controlled...
Beachability is hard to find in the cat market. Most don’t mention it which usually means it’s not possible. It certainly is what I would be looking for.
Hi Pete, thanks for your comments and some people freak out about beaching… But the more important fact is the shallow draft and the when yo go shallow, it is reassuring that no harm will come if you do bottom out or dry out by accident. The quality of life in flat protected waters is amazing but some regions don’t have those places so it’s not for everyone.
Yes we did make comment on the video that the fix Kyaw both can sit on the sand they just need more water to do it. Many of the fixed keel cats are designed for that purpose but some do not recommend it like leopard.
Very interesting! -- QUESTION -- One issue you didn't discuss yet, is for for those who are looking to go up the Inside Passage for a few years and into Alaska and maybe, just maybe, the Northern Passage. I watched Alluring Arctic Sailing on youtube and he has an alluminum sailboat (an older Garcia 43/46 type sailboat) and can beach and dry out too - very cool indeed. He even motored through the thin ice layer that formes overnight. But, how would an alluminum Cat handle snowy, and thin ice, in northern conditions vs a sailboat like a Garcia? Could a Cat handle going up north as well as a metal sailboat? I can't find any examples of Cats doing this??
Hi Colleen, certainly Garcias also make the Explocat 52 and the claim that it would be fine in the extreme latitudes in the same way as their monohulls... If anyone wants to do the seriously extreme sailing up (or down) there, you need extra insulation, extra heating and probably some other additions. I do not see any reason for exploration cats not to do that as Delos and Nahoa are certainly talking about it...
Hi! Guys! I Agree! I like to almost same like lifting keel and front cockpit (single control point) Back of the boat should have fishing platform+kitchen for cleaning fish and just for bbq+ full solid roof! Paperless Toilets already washlet on market! (toshiba) I don't understand why people using them!?? last and possible to have windows like a car up and down is it possible! cheers! good luck to you guys!
Aren't we talking about a difference of just 2'6" between a heavy Lagoon 51 draft and a Portafino 52 draft? Back in the late 90's...I beached my trimaran for 2 days in the Whitsundays, to paint antifoul (you'd get shot for doing that now). All was good until a small squall hit us just as we were about to float her off and small waves started bouncing us up and down on the beach. Typically, fellow cruisers came to the rescue and with every wave helped inch the tri back off the beach. I tell ya, it wasn't good. Thanks, your show brought back so many memories of a wonderful time in my life. Funny how that scary moment can link to all those memories I'd thought forgotten. Cheers guys
Yes wind change and waves as you relaunch is the biggest risk of being beached so checking the forecast is important (but not always right!!!) And we have so many fantastic memories of being beached!
I have a much smaller cat. I would have in your example have put some tyres below the hulls. As soon as you start to lift, pull then out, the you should be able increase the draught sufficiently to pull into deeper water. A new aluminium cat, no expense spared, four hydraulic jacks. Also help with anti fouling the very underside.
I have no experience of cats and their ‘leeway preventers’ but both my tris had daggerboards and I would NOT go down that route again!Their construction involved expense and time, they were noisy, and required too many inconvenient controls. Although we learned lessons from the first one and made good use of the second’s sacrificial tip (!) I also saw the extensive damage caused by grounding a 60’ Kelsal tri when the top of the d/b rotated out through it’s reinforced case and required hydraulic equipment to extract the also damaged board To my mind a rotating (centre)board is ideal. A good friend is still cruising his liveaboard Marples 44’ tri and after nearly forty years has had only praise for the arrangement. With quick access through the top of it’s case it means the board, it’s two control lines and pivot pin can be easily serviced or removed without drying In fact a case could be made (excuse the pun) for just a single such board on a cruising catamaran Kick up rudders are easy enough to build and use, not just for clearing seaweed and fishing line etc but also for shallows navigation and beaching - at least that was our experience (‘tho we did not have propellors and shafts to consider)
Thanks Ruth for reminding us about that. Unfortuable for them, they can really beach so they only got into the opening of Hill Inlet while we go all the way up to behind Whitehaven beach and because we were designed to beach, it was no stress!
Dagger boards is the way to go.....the only way to deal with storms.....u can slide with big waves situation.....fixed kill will bite in. Had both prefer the daggers
Absoultely Mike, we agree. We have also had both and the lifting keeps are our clear preference. It's interesting that folk who have never had lifting keels don;t realise how much better it is so choose the fixed keels for the ease of build / cost....
Guys, I believe you'll get a great well-thought out boat. Not sure about the weight (16.5 tons is not trifle, but lighter than Leopard 50 anyway.). But, I started thinking recently about turbullence that is created by a niche for the centerboard when the centerboard is down. It shouldn't have a big impact, but we have a narrow hull for the performance and at the same time a big "hole" after centerboard (how big is it? about 10 inches width and four feet long?). Does the shipyard have any calculations? In any case Portofino looks like the best model for its price at the moment. Hope the polar speed diagram you have will be true.
Yes you raise important issues. The slot for the centreboard is only 3 inches wide and we may have a rubber flap form each side to improve the laminar flow - we willed you know for sure in the later stages. As for the polars, they cannot be exactly right as the program does not allow for several factors like windage, sail inefficiency etc and apparently the computer modelling is usually 10% off even for the racing boats... Still if we can sail close to wind speed easily and without stress and reach 12 knots with ease, we will be very happy... That is probably the biggest thing we are looking forward to finding out after the launch!!!
In the age of automation these things should be standard, of course, highly reliable since most automation things break. I’m surprised, for catamarans, that they haven’t come up with a four-corner anchoring system in conjunction with the main anchor. Imagine dropping an aft anchor per corner with the main anchor. Would that help matters in storms? I’m not a sailor, just had a few exposures. All fun times.
Interesting idea but the4 corner system won’t work because the boat needs to face into the wind and be able to turn as the wind direction alters. The windage or force on the boat is huge if it blows on you sideways …
Thanks for letting us know that Matthew - I only knew about the Seawind 1600 that could do that. That will make a really good boat to get all the advantages we shared then!!!
Two daggerboard benefits. Fixed keels need a certain speed to effectively generate lift. A daggerboard is effective at a much less speed, so it has the advantage of letting you sail slower! And whilst still making up wind at a very comfortable speed. If you ground on a reef, a fixed keel will dig in, whereas a flat bottom may allow you to slide across / off. Two more thoughts. A single, bigger, board has been shown to be more effective, and surprisingly no noticeable difference on either tack. You could make an inspection hatch above waterline in the casing, this would help if you got the board stuck, or more likely, stones James in the casing. And would make cleaning/ anti fouling easier. One last point, a daggerboard casing should be made with a crash box behind. And the front of the board also able to crush. Thus allowing the board to swivel and absorb a collision
My expensive experience says that crush boxes don’t do much to absorb a collision and significant internal repair inside the boat will be required. If there is a haulout facility that is OK’ish, but in remoter parts it would be a major headache
Thanks Mark. Those are very interesting points. I was not aware of the speed issue with dagger boards being effective at low speeds but that’s an added benefit to add to the list. The crash bulkhead behind the dagger boards would be a good idea if the designers would take that on board but fortunately with a Portofino and the rotating centre board it will just kick up.
Dyneema floats if you made panels of Dyneema rope and cloth that was sealed with vinyl. These panels could be secured between the hulls making the boat a hovercraft. We have leaf blowers that produce 250mph blasts. This could lift the boat and the boat could be kedged with an anchor to deeper or shallower water. This could help you hide from a storm or in deeper water for sailing.
My observation of the grounding of the Hillbilly is that the critical failure was the prop shaft support struts punching straight up through the hull. This flooded the engine room. With the added weight of water in the boat the damage accelerated even though the waves were not very large at the time. The struts had fairly small metal plates where they attached to the hull and were not in line with a bulkhead. Even on sand, when the weight of the boat pushed the prop shafts up the hull failed at the strut attachment points. Boats that can motor at high speed really like to have their props be the deepest thing to be in smooth water flow. If you only motor below hull speed then the props can be shallower than the bottom of the hull and/or protected by skegs. Struts aligned to mount at a bulkhead, so that they collapse before punching through the hull, or watertight bulkheads isolating the rudder and prop shaft strut mounting area might have saved the engine room from flooding and reduced the damage.
Ok, Thanks, that was exactly what i was wanting to hear… How big of a deal is the Nani engine choice?!’ Again, he kinda makes it sound like there are Nani parts hanging on every shops wall? Do u think thats even a real enough benefit, (enough so to buy a nani instead), OR, because the engines are new, it wont even matter until years from now, (if ever), when the motors are older?
@@mahyala_ Hi again, Mahyla, I think Nanni parts are easily available around the world but so are Yanmars and certain countries will be bringing in emission controls esp Europe and You will not be allowed to take engines like that into certain countries- France, & Italy are doing it already and it will only get tighter.
Yes Mark very clear bias but each to their own and as we said before there’s no right and there’s no wrong just different choices. The worst thing is when people make choices without the correct information and this is what we are trying to fix.
Perfomance cats can run fast from storms and point higher! Rudders can modified to be lifted! I would not want to sit through storms with lightning risk! I guess if you have a heavy slow boat there is no alternative!
Yes that's mostly right. But rudders and difficult to change design to allow them to be lifted - they usually have to be designed in at the build stage and very few builders care because not enough sailors ask for it... Start asking the brands to put it in to get more options in the market if is is important to you!
I think you could also include in the negative in terms of "costs" is "how often am I REALLY going to beach the boat?" Let's say that flip keel/rudder feature costs you $50,000 extra to build. How many days are you truly living beached? Even in the bahamas, I don't see many beaches I would feel comfortable beaching for prolonged periods of time. Maybe a day or two for fun. But how often will this really happen? Maybe 10-20 days over a couple years? How much did that feature cost, per day, plus maintenance, to have? Because it seems like it's costing the same as a really awesome hotel suite per-day to have a boat with this feature. So for me personally, just not worth it. Fixed sacrificial keels better for how we sail.
Thanks guys for your comment and it probably varies a lot with where and how you sail. With Alba Dash, we used the shallow draft every week and at least 50% of the time in Australia. In Indonesia there were less suitable places to beach but the shallow draft benefited us about 25% of the time... There are many beachable spots in the Bahamas (cays, beaches that get exposed, spits etc) but more importantly there are millions of places that normal boats can't go because it is too shallow - even sailing down Waderick Wells, around Staniel Cay - almost everywhere there are channels you can shelter in that most folk just go in their dinghies,. You may remember all the spots where you would have anchored off and taken the dinghy in to check out the shallow channels between islands etc... Look out for them next time and see what we are talking about! It saved our boat from Cyclone Debbie so that alone made it worthwhile and I don't know what the daggerboards cost (cwerrtinly did not cost us $50K as we built it ourselves) but for us it was certainly worth it...
How many times will you beach your boat instead of paying big $$$ to haul out just so you can repaint your antifouling or throughholes/inspection required for INSURANCE??? A lot of times... How many times will you beach your boat instead of paying MOORING fees? A lot. Who likes hopping onto a dingy to get to shore? No one; and you do not carry 2 dinghy's which usually leaves ONE person on land and ONE person on the boat with no way to get to the other as get this, WE NEED SPACE awwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy, yes, AWAY from our wife/husband regularly!!!! If you beach your boat no one feels burdened with the knowledge that to GET said space AWAY from the other you leave them with NO WAY off the boat or vice versa. Next, a LOT of regions of the world you want to TIE to shore, as not enough room to anchor and swing about, but do not want to ACTUALLY beach your boat. No rudders in way this is NOT a problem. Same goes for no KEELS. These regions often have large tidal variation which means you still swing some, but you are not exactly worried as your draft is SHALLOW.
@@w8stral you cant beach paint antifoul in AUS. You can clean a hull on a beach, you can do annodes, I have personally replaced through holes on a beach but not painting allowed
I have swinging boards and lifting rudders on my Gemini and nothing is nicer than creek crawling into a sheltered drying spot to spend a quiet night flat. Complicated tacking? No not really you rapidly get used to it.
It seems like people have to experience that wonderful safety to really understand it. When I hear the people who have never had shallow draft boats saying it’s no big deal they have clearly never had the joy of safety and flatwater in a howling Gale.
Fixed keel. Why? Two less things to worry about and when things go wrong, they go wrong badly and expensive to fix. I had an experience on a dagger board boat where we got distracted navigating close to shore upwind, keels were down, port side hit a rock and was badly damaged. Couldnt lift it, boat got swung around, managed to back away with engines. Messy. I have been on fixed keels when we have hit something, but aside from a gouge or scratch, the fix was realtively cheaper and we sailed on even with damage. And there is data out there to show that the difference in pointing ability is not that much (for a racer maybe) but for crusing its more dependant on the boat. Seawinds fixed keels for instance point really well. But most crusisers try to avoid upwind anyway and you dont ness daggerboards after that 😊
Yep totally get your point! Pros and cons with both, but that is on thing we really missed and didn’t think we would as much as we did. Cheers for your comment!
Hi Sandy, we agree with you in that improved upwind performance is the least important factor in our choice... Two points on your unfortunate grounding - were there not sacrificial tips to your daggersbonards and fixed keel GRP boats will sometimes hole their hull when you hit reef with speed... We have seen both and lost the tips of our daggerboard twice in 20 years but no other harm done - and fixed keel damage to hull with big leak is more worrying that daggerboard you can't raise.... However our P52 will give rotate upwards if we hit anything at speed so should be fine and of course aluminium is very much stronger than GRP for running aground in any way!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 it was meant to break, but the theory was that the speed/hit was too slow to break but just enough to cause a kink that prevented lifting. In the fixed keel incidents, we were lucky that the keel stayed on as if it had fallen off, we would have grounded the hull on a reef. I guess it depends on the bot but on Seawinds the bottom of the hull seems pretty strong.
Nice informative video, thank you. Now of I go on a wild tangent and hope you do not mind me playing devil's advocate here on these fancy new aluminium catamarans (I am just so very jealous, so have to). I like what I see and hear, that is certain, but has anyone looked into metal fatigue and corrosion resistance? So many welds and potential sharp corners that presents high stress points and possible difference in materials. What is the design lifetime of the aluminium structure when exposed to continuous strong wave action? Aluminium designed aircraft have a lifetime where after they are permanently grounded. The US Navy has aluminium trimaran littoral combat ships that are severely affected by structural failures when operated under moderate to high stress states. Then there are also the "aggressive corrosion" issues these ships have. Plenty of info on the web on these specific Austral build ships. Maybe you two or anyone of the other 'alu-cat' channels can look into this can-of-worms (if such does exist, that is). I do not remember anyone discussion this issue on sailing channels. I raise this concern as I was fortunate to have discussed (many years ago) aluminium as a structural material with a very skilled builder. This guy in his past has build large aluminium boats and he conveyed to me the issues they encountered and the lessons learned. I learned from this builder that aluminium is not an awesome choice where vibration and shock loading is involved, can be done yes, if you are aware of these issues (characteristics) and have accommodated them. I hope to see the state of these same TH-cam 'alu-cats' 10 years from now after transiting many many thousands of miles and if they have encountered any structural failures. Thank you for your great channel. Cannot wait to see the two of you sailing away on your new ‘alu-cat’. Regards.
Hi Pieter, thanks for all that info about the problems that Aluminium has had. Over the decades the builders learned the lessons to block the corrosion(electrolysis) and with AL we are very focussed on that with6mi itirson the oat to measure any current or voltage differential. Finally enough electrolysis also occurs on other boats as experienced by the Wynns But because they were not aluminium they haven’t focused on that issue. The boat has undergone a very comprehensive structural testing and we did one video on that issue as well so I’m confident that the issues he described on repetitive strain will not happen because the weight and the forces are spread over such a big area. The other thing to remember is that before carbon and the high-performance materials aluminium mostly material of choice for racing boats which suffered profound and repeated forces And we will certainly not be putting our boat through those sort of experiences. However at the end of the day we will see if we are right but we are very confident that those issues have been addressed. Thanks very much for your detailed comments
Even fixed keel catamarans have a quite low draught, when compared to a monohull. The Portofino 52 has 70cm while Delos 2 has 120cm. A monohull with the same interior room (60+feet) has at least 3m. That's because the keel of a monohull must counter the heeling of the boat.
Yes you are right about the depth of monos being deeper but with the mini keels of cats, the shallower they are, the worse the upwind performance will be so, as always, there are compromises and choices to make. The difference between 70 and 120cm is still significant if you are trying to get up into mangroves or creeks with a hurricane coming down on you and in the Bahamas, the tides are not big but the flow of water is immense! But of course aluminium cats with mini keels can beach / sit on the sand if the tides allow so they do get all those advantages....
Hi John, Centerboards are interesting, seems to be some good pros. What your thoughts on pocket fouling from growth and mud and the required maintenance. Will this need regular hual outs? What was your experience with daggerboard case maintenance? I assume this could be done in the water, not so sure about the centre board pocket cleaning while in the water.
Good questions Darren. The centreboard can be dismantled on the sand when the tide is out and the "pocket" is shallow so we can easily get into it to clean if barnacles ever grow. Portofino is putting in an electronic device to reduce growth of algae and barnacles in there too. Cleaning daggerboards is a bit more difficult as the slot is so long but it is usually only the bottom 3-6 inches that grows stuff so you can reach it with scrapers... Can be done in the water but easier out of the water and good antifoul also slows growth.
Sorry, what I wrote was confusing- we cannot clean the pocket on the sand as the boat is sitting on it, we would clean the pocket when floating. But maintenance of the mechanism and rotation pin can be done on the sand when the boat is dried out and then put back together before floating off.
I believe they "bought" the design off him so IU presume he received a nice payment to use his design so we really hope he is happy with the outcome...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I only have 2nd hand information on the matter. So I refrain from adding fuel to the rumor mill. But I stand by my comment.
@@tcurdt No worries but the actual history, we understand is that the Odisea is taken from the Mumby design so this fact is not in dispute surely, and it was done with Tim Mumby's approval?
Actually if I were to build a catamaran it would be a power cat with no sails. I would work in at least 20kw of solar and a couple thousand gallons of fuel. I would trade the cost of the sails and the rigging for the cost of diesel and lithium iron phosphate batteries. So there would be no keels or dagger boards. And yes it would have the prop and rudder higher than the bottom of the hull so you could beach the boat.
Yes indeed, there are many good motor cats that beach and I think in one of the photos of Alba Dash on the beach with Eli at the front left of the photo, you can see a motorcar beached behind Alba Dash.
How do you stop fouling of the centre board casing so the board doesn’t get stuck? On a side note all you YT channels will cross paths in a bar one day and there’ll be biffo 🤜😂
@@SailingSeahorse2025 Certainly barnacles and algae growth on the lower part of the Centreboard case and you just have to keep up your antifoul and scrape it if it builds up to much it’s much worse when you leave the boat on used for long periods of time in the water. Most of the channels will create arguments just for the views and usually both sides get more views as well! Of course in any group there are some you just don’t get on with so you leave them alone…
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 One of the well established realities of certerboard cases for cruisers, especially where there is no in-water access to the inside of the case because this was designed below the DWL, is that the only time access for maintence or cleaning is adequate or convenient is when the board has been removed. At all other times it is seriously compromised. The fact this did not make it onto your list of cons suggests you may not yet be aware this.😐
Hi EC, Sorry I am missing your point. We access our daggerboard case on our 42 foot cat from below in the water. The water level goes up about foot higher than that but the majority of algae or barnacles on in the bottom 2-3 inches. We can reach up with our arms and tools high enough to get above the water line.... We can also pull the daggerboard up and out of the case whenever we want and never had to do anything inside the case in the 20 years we had her. What sort of maintenence are you talking about?
you always talk about lifting keels , however the mechanics of lifting keels as if they will afford safety but they are no more safe than daggerboard because they require crew intervention as do the rudders !
The safety we are referring to is the automatic kick up with impact if you hit anything. This does not require crew intervention as it s a compression fitting that just gives way. Thanks for all your input Norman!
Thank you for your responce, however , after centuries of the limitations of having just 3 categories of under water appendages [ those being Keels, Daggerboards, and Centerboards ] it is amazing Naval Architects still accept using the same old limiting design like Centerboards because of the limiting Dynamic function. Centerboards beyond the size of the bolt used the pivot of the board negates the foil form as it archs aft ,additionally, the center of effort and ballance are moved Aft causing imbalance on the helm steering pressure. Traditionally, because of the nominal radius of the limitation of the head pivot size the trunk loading is imposing. Worst of all servicing of the board requires dropping it out of the slot from under the boat while being hauled at great expence. It amazes me that despite the advancement of a 4th category appendage of SCABBOARDS which preform like daggerboards but provide the SAFETY of centerboards without the negative attributes noted above. It would be refreshing if Naval Architects kept up to date on the design improvements afforded beyond the old schol 3 categories and considered SCABBOARDS. SCABBOARDS raise automatically without winches nor hydronic/ electric. Unlike centerboards they withdraw vertically, up & forward upon impact instead of Aft like centerboards with equal speed and safety. comparable to dagger boards they maintain their hydrodymamic foil shape throughout withdrawal but unlike daggerboards they do not rise above the deck when up! SCABBOARDS are completely serviceable from above Deck while weighing similar to centerboards . Ther are many other attributes to know so if you wish to learn about them feel free to send me your Email and I will send more info.
It’s true! Comparing modern sailboats to airplanes highlights how outdated sailboat technology is. Today’s sailboats resemble World War I biplanes: non-retractable keels (wheels), shroud-stiffened rigs (wings), external steering wheels, and metal hulls built over frames and stringers. I plan to build a new boat with retractable centerboards and rudders, an almost freestanding mast with forestay and backstay only, UHMWPE „Strongall“ hulls, and a sailplan without a mainsail. Did you know aluminum production emits 17 tons of CO2 per ton of aluminum? In contrast, UHMWPE production emits only 1.5 tons of CO2 per ton. UHMWPE also requires no antifouling, painting, or corrosion protection, and is energy-efficient to recycle, resulting in low CO2 emissions. All the best to you both and see you on the water soon.
That is very interesting Pawel! The UHMWPE is used in making smaller boats so what are the other specs like - eg strength, relative weight etc. Could that be the product of the future? Give us more details on how you are doing it - do you build with flat panels ro do you mould them?? How you you make joins etc...
Just another tiny question... if I can be so bold as it may be a bit political... I noticed that Delos is building in Australia and that you guys originate from Australia... I think Delos started the build after you guys started your build and this fact may be the answer... Were you aware of existence of the Australian shop that is doing the Delos build, prior to your decision on where to build? I guess what I am asking is why didn't you decide build with the Delos shop?
Hi Colleen, that is a great question and when we were looking for a shipyard to build our boat we had a long wish list including front cockpit, shallow draft, lifting keels and rudder (reachable), high performance, good living space and more. While the front cockpit put most builders out for us, lifting keep and beachability put out the rest. Portofino was the only yard that was willing to design the mechanics to create the rotating centreboard, and they were already offering amazing extra features like the transom walkthrough door, front trampoline ladder, piped pressured air, automatic fuel polisher and much more... The Mumby design (now Odisea) was the closest thing to want we wanted but still missing many of the features we wanted.... Building in Australia woudl have been much easier but the quality, finish and extras made the extra hassle of doing it in Dubai worthwhile!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ..fair enough and a nice detailed answer! We had thought that maybe you had discovered some quality issue with that shop in Australia or something like that. Good to hear that it was other considerations... Seems like Aluminum Cats are all the rage right now and it is so interesting to watch them being built. Any chance you guys could get into the shop in Dubai and do entire episodes on the construction sort of like Delos is doing? It is fascinating to watch and learn it all.
I cannot tell u how much u going into all that detail was so crucial…
I have about 30 friends who i’ve gotten to watch ur show over the years. These guys always ask ME to explain things like this, that u guys talk about…
They were almost all, texting me, remarking how much your explanation really helped them, understand something they never knew.
So please keep doing that. Others, who know what u r talking about, can just ff. But for the many who have no idea, it super helps!!
Cheers mate! 👍🏻
because tour a moron and you need other morons to explain things to you
That’s awesome!
You are doing your bit to spread the info and that is the only way we as a community will keep on evolving things in the cruising world for everyone no matter the experience level. We really appreciate your contribution!
Stay awesome!!
Love this episode. You touched points I've been wondering about, thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
Love it! Great information. Can’t wait to see your new boat.
Thanks - us too!!!
I have always believed in safety first and totally agree with your choice! Having the ability to lift your rudder and fold your keel to tuck into the groves for safety is definitely worth the extra funds spent. The added bonus is putting her on the sandy beach and having a sandbox as your backyard. 👏👏 You both are building the perfect catamaran with your well thought out choices and the expertise of Portofino. When completed she will be carving a new path in the catamaran industry and every manufacturer will find themselves redesigning to reach the same quality as Portofino! Well done my friends! 😊❤
Thanks very much for your kind words again, Mango!!!!
John & Eli, you have opened a can of worms, now I want to change my mind and get a keel and rudder that lifts up...thanks for the expert analysis and pros and cons of both. I hope we get to meet you on the water someday. I look forward to seeing your new boat and how it fairs in shallow waters. Such a cool ability to beach you boat... Thanks again for sharing and please be safe.
Thanks Jibe Talking for your kind words! because we have sailed so much using that system, we know how well it works and we did seriously feel like our throats were cut with fixed keels in the Bahamas!
Hi guys, I just absolutely love you both. Just so much fun and wonderful to be a round. Thank you for all the information you gave it absolutely fantastic. Keep up the good work guys. Really appreciate your both. Cliff from Logan City Queensland Australia 🇦🇺
Thanks so much, Cliff and really nice of you to be a regular commentator for our videos!!! Please keep up your good work too!!!
Love a bit of competitive competition and banter- it draws out great discussion. Look forward to the day an Alloy Cat flotilla meets up somewhere
Yes that would be awesome!!!
Love the fun and informative presentation, and it’s easy to be convinced of the benefits.
Our inland lake sailer is a Hobie Getaway, and I love being able to tell the boys to hang on tight and then sail the cat right up into the beach with her flip up rudders and zero concerns for damaging her rotomolded mini keels.
We aspire to the cruising lifestyle for more than a week or two a year, and it’s given us something to chew on, as what seems to be currently in our budget is GRP with fixed keels….sigh.
Hi Jason, good luck with your dreams and most folk start with GRP mono and progress over time to better boats over time.... Just DO IT!
Haahaa!
In my “starter marriage” we sailed and cruised protected waters in a Farrier 27’ trimaran, with lifting daggerboard and kick up rudder. Though the accommodation was more like camping than cruising, it is, as you say, hard to go back in performance from 10knott averages and a .4M draft. I can’t imagine being in anything but a multihull from here on out, unfortunately.
My wife and family loved our charter experience this past summer on a Seawind 1160, and hopefully we can find a boat to fit our planned program and growing boys in a couple of years time.
I’ve really grown to enjoy the mix of locations, tech and cruising tips you so joyfully share with your audience each week. You guys have become one of my “go to” channels when I need a virtual sailing fix, and it’s piqued my wife’s interest in Turkey in a really good way also. Thank you for that!
Best of luck on the completion of your wonderful yacht! It’ll be amazing to see the completed boat and the incorporation of all of your years of experience and thought into the project.
Glad our videos are useful and inspiring for you and your wife Jayson!
Thanks Team, more reinforcement that choices must be based on your personal priorities, wholly agree there is no right or wrong.
Appreciated the insights you shared, gained from real experiences across very different designs.
Thank you.
Yep you got it! Cheers for your comment, we love hearing from you.
Your years of sailing catamarans and attention to detail shows well in your design of P52. I have no doubt in my mind, anyone looking into buying or building a new cat, will be looking for similar features as your cat. I would if I ever had a chance in doing so. But, for now I am immensely happy with my Island Packet 380 as my first step into sailing. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. much love to you both
Thanks for your kind words Mansour and enjoy sailing your island package 38. The most important thing is to get out there and enjoy the time that you have on the water and with every boat and trip you get more experience and confident. Enjoy!
I’m a traditional monohull sailor, however being able to properly beach your boat in bad weather is truly a game changer.
Btw Hill Inlet is the best place in the world but you’re lucky because very few people can get there haha.
For top end Australia I think you might have the perfect boat. I’ll be looking forward to the sailing videos and the sea kindliness of your boat.
Every boat has its pros and cons. Getting the balance right is important. We just sailed from Cadiz to Barbate, 36nm with 30k wind on the nose and a cross swell.
Forecast was 25 beam reach. The shoals and fishing nets plus the orca issue meant we sailed in less than 20m the whole way tacking around fishing nets. Thankfully it was over after 5 hours but I’m not sure a catamaran would have even managed it.
How does a cat cope when the forecast is wrong.
I agree with your daggerboard comment too. If anyone is in doubt just go sail a laser or any high performance dinghy down wind with a full centreboard and it will trip you up very quickly.
Ok I’m not saying never but I’m watching with interest, certainly in my dotage cruising Australia I could go cat. 🤪 🦅
See below!
Understand however what it always comes down to is. To each their own. Many know what opinions and a certain body parts have in common. Like how this beautiful couple explains what they like of different options.
@@c.a.mcneil7599 Thanks CA. Absolutely and we do not want to change people’s mind just highlight good experiences that others may not be aware of…
Great video. I love the methodical process for the decision making.
You're very kind, Kirk!
The OG ally cats are the Mumby 48 footers. Daggerboards, kick up rudders, light & fast. Check out Jamie on Jupiter II - he has a build video, pros and cons and even an interview with the camera shy designer.
Thanks Skeet, yes we have seen most of their videos and knew the Mumbys before we found the Portofino - the are really good high performance boats! The issue for us was some of the other features we were looking for were not available in the Mumby so we had to look elsewhere...
I have never been sailing, but if I were to get a boat, I would be keen on a shallow draft catamaran. I love the idea of being able to walk out on the beach as well as be safe from swell and storm. Great vid!
Large Wharrams are frequently built with drop down ladders or nets ... So you can beach them and walk down onto the shore or into the sea ...or land or launch a small boat even underway ..
Yes fantastic boats that sailed around the world at amazingly low prices!!! Thanks Clive!
Cheers for your comment , it is sure a game changer!!
@barefootdoctors we really apreciate your videos, very educational. We are looking very much into the market and areagreeing with you guys on a lot of points.
Looking forward to see new details and progress on the 52.
Glad the info is useful!
@barefootdoctors-
Really appreciate your channel and all the education you are providing!
All the best,
M-
Glad you find it useful Morgan....
Superb info! thanks! And definitely very entertaining as well!
Glad you enjoyed it, Kaliman!
I remember your video from a year or two ago about the benefits the shallow draft. I was absolutely sold on the prospect of being able to go where other’s could not. I can’t wait for you to get your Portofino 52 and take us on wonderful video adventures! Timeline for delivery? Cheers!
Good to hear you have been following us long enough to know we repeated ourselves!!! We just have heard several channels making comments that miss the important points, we wanted to repeat them with more impact!
Sail like what??? …fun video, been following for a while… fell in love with aluminum cats with Elsa, but I cant find her now… Ketch rig, forward cockpit… You may recall her from years ago… when will you be afloat in your new Aluminum Cat???
That is a Debilliers 62 design cat and the name was changed to Sea Catcher or something like that when she was sold. Check out Devilliers website and you will see her there…
Our launch will be about March this coming year - can’t wait!
An excellent lesson with many arguments about which keel design best meets personal needs. But I would like to ask about capsizing. I understood the importance of the daggerboard to reduce the risk. One issue that I consider important is reducing the center of gravity. I have seen projects with ballast compartments in the bow and stern of the boat, to increase the weight and avoid rocking in a sea with high waves. Have you ever seen a project with water ballast boxes in the bow and stern? I wish you favorable winds and a great trip.
Hi Joel, hobby horsing (rocking forward and aft) is reduced with weight in the bow but it is better achieved with hull shape modification and cats perform best with weight centralised so the bow lifts easily if it ever diggs under waves.
For capsize risk, I have never seen water ballast used as the weight of the boat is the thing that is usually designed to prevent capsize. So a heavier cat is less likely to capsize than a light one but then the high speed performance is affected so there is a compromise here - we will do a whole episode on this in the near future as there are some one sided arguments being put out and several hight end TH-cam channels that have been freaked out by the sailing of light cats across oceans (and ended up with anxiety issues as a result, it seems...)
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I have seen this idea of using ballast on old catamarans, such as the WHARRAM Catamarans, which are made of wood and have a certain flexibility in their structure. The purpose of filling the hulls with water ballast during a powerful storm allowed the waves to pass over the hulls and not affect stability. After the storm, the ballast is emptied and the boat can sail again at a good speed due to weight reduction. I am waiting for the next video!
Love your explanation and on the end it’s choice and wallet size 😊. But have to say, from all new builds which in the moment in planing or build your portofino is the most practical one…… in my eyes.😊 can’t wait for next week!
Thanks Juergen! Obviously we agree that the P52 is the most practical one but we are biased because it has all the features that WE want!!!! Nobody else could or would do them and it was really good that Raffaele at Portofino was able to put his engineering skills to use and design all the systems to make it work!!
Good discussion folks and as others have mentioned, it comes down to personal choice and what people are looking to get out of their boats, me always a monohull so no discussion needed.
Absolutely Ian and no-one is wrong!
Hi John and Eli, again thank you for your informative video. I still wonder about the Portofino 52 swing keel, bare bottom design. As you know dagger boards go up and down in the same pivot point in the hull. It would seem that swing keels either need to be fully up or fully down so as not to affect the pivot point and sailing dynamics. Could this this be a problem, I would appreciate anybody's thoughts.
I also wonder if fixed keellets (for lack of a better word) of no deeper than say 150mm to provide a landing point for the hulls when you dry out or are slipped in less than ideal circumstances. One unforeseen rock or uneven sand between ribs may still dent the reinforced hull. Any thoughts?
Please keep us all up to date with your intended splash/yard tour dates in Dubia in early 2025. Thank you for all of your effort to get these fantastic video out each week.
Hi Adam thanks for your comments. In relation to the use of the centreboards half or minimally up, this will only be used when sailing on a square Reach and the centre of rotation is a little importance at that time.
In relation to the option of a mini Keel, we always look at the sand as the boat is starting to beach as in 6 inches of water or so and make sure that there are no rocks coral or uneven surfaces that will scratch or damage the Hull at that point is very easy to manually pull the boat sideways or forwards or backwards as the need arises. Obviously this aluminium is 20 or 100 times stronger than my epoxy and WoodPerformance cat and we had no troubles with that over the 20 year period. It is true that the anti-foul on the bottom section wears out a touch faster But the small area has very little consequence overall.
At this stage we expect to launch in February but we will let everybody know closer to the time when the actual date will be. Nice to have you along for the ride I’m glad you’re enjoying the information.
Very thorough explanation Docs.
What are your thoughts on the Seawind 1190 sport with dagger boards and lifting rudders and outboard engines that can also be tilted up? Only drawback I can see is that it may be a tad small for a full time live aboard and some people question how much cavitation would result when motoring in rough seas. Your feedback would be appreciated.
Sea winds are great boats and we’ll thought out. 1190 would be fine for a couple to live aboard but it is on the small side for big seas if you are doing ocean crossings. We had outboards on our 42 footAlba Dash and our props lifted out the water in big swell but the boat still made way ok - just really annoying but rare. Hope that helps
Great video guys 🙂 We reckon have the best of both worlds on our 9.7 Ton 46 foot Performance Cat.. Rehab.. Very shallow 200 to 300mm deep but long 5M keels that protect our Carbon fibre Rudders and also Dagger boards for going up wind. We get to sail up wind at 30 to 35 degrees apparent and also have the luxury of a reasonably shallow 960mm draft and we can beach !
Sounds very nice combination. What is the brand of the boat?
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Rehab is a 14M (46ft) x 7.6M Roger Hill (New Zealand) design and built to a very high standard with Foam Core/Epoxy and Carbon where it counts. 9 7 Ton Light Ship. She is an exceptional offshore performance adventure cruiser 🙂
She will sail very well with those specs and Roger Hill is an excellent designer! Lucky you!!!
Can you work any deals on a “Barefoot doctors” version? I’m looking to start early next year
Glad you like the boat but there is a queue for P52s for a few years. Contact Raffaele at info@portofinomarineservice.com
Very good point to consider 🤙
Keep it up guy’s, love your content ❤
Thank you 🙌 Kay! We like to put out the info that others seem to be unaware of...
Great video. Excited to see your new boat on the open sea! It’s going to be amazing. Will Portifino make your design their standard offering in the near future?
Hi Hex, thanks for the comment and yes, the Portofino 52 is the main boat being produced by Portofino now as there are so many extra features.... They will be looking at making some large cats too as they have been asked to make some larger new designs too....
You guys are sooo good, thanks for sharing❤️
Our pleasure! Glad you enjoyed it!
I’m a traditional monohull sailor, however being able to properly beach your boat in bad weather is truly a game changer.
Btw Hill Inlet is the best place in the world but you’re lucky because very few people can get there haha.
For top end Australia I think you might have the perfect boat. I’ll be looking forward to the sailing videos and the sea kindliness of your boat.
Every boat has its pros and cons. Getting the balance right is important. We just sailed from Cadiz to Barbate, 36nm with 30k wind on the nose. Forecast was 25 beam reach. The shoals and fishing nets plus the orca issue meant we sailed in less than 20m the whole way tacking around fishing nets. Thankfully it was over after 5 hours but I’m not sure a catamaran would have even managed it.
How does a cat cope when the forecast is wrong.
Thanks for the story and yes cats can sail upwind if they are designed well and esp with daggerboards. Once on our 42 foot cat we had to sail 100nm directly to windward in 30 knots in Vanuatu to get a crew member to a plane flight (never get trapped like). The boat managed it but it was just very horrible bashing into the 3 m waves at a steady 6 -6.5knots..... Out Leopard performs well upwind too but certainly Lagoons and Balis would not be able to do that...
Thank you for sharing your great idea's.
Glad you like them!
how about insulation in the aluminum catamarans for high latitude sailing and sound deadening?
Yes all aluminium cats are insulated and for high latitudes the thickness is often doubled... The sound deadening therefore is automatic.
Interesting episode.
I have no opinion on shallow hulls vs fixed keeled boats. But I am interested in seeing how you make out with your in contrast with oh say the, Wynes's HH44. It is fun to watch and cool to see where everyone goes and what you experience. Thanks for letting me tag along!😊
Thanks Warren - yes we will be very interested to see how she performs too in comparison to the other cats and tris out there!!!
Every time you talk about the features of your catamaran, it’s the same features what I’ve thought all along would make the perfect cat.
Hi Kevin, yes, thanks for the feedback and we always wonder why these features are not in more boats but it's probably because the brands do not want to go to that much trouble....
Awesome info guys👍, thanks
Our pleasure Jo!
We are really liking this concept of shallow draft catamarans, But, what about the propellor and shaft etc.,? How do you ensure that you won't be sitting on the prop and damaging it. On a perfectly flat sandy area it seems safe, but won't you get irregular surface features and rocks that will rise up and crush your prop?
Thanks Colleen, that is a natural concern bu the boat is designed for the prop and shaft to be above the sand level and because we are sitting the boat in 2 feet of water, we walk around it and look at it AND FEEL IT as the tide is dropping to make sure the sand is soft with no sharp coral or rocks esp just under the sand to damage the boat or props... Very easy really!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ...excellent point. We hadn't thought about rocks just under the sand. Figured if it looked like sand it would be safe but for sure checking to make sure that there isn't a hidden rock right under the surface of the sand is a great idea!
Love you channel, great information! The unique boat that I ever saw was a cross between a Wharren bottom and caterman top that some fellow Sailer was building. Now there's a rudder or two that can be said about that! er Canadian sense of humor talking
:))))
Great episode, but what are your plans (like you mentioned in the early „portofino“ episodes) regarding a „fold up“ flybridge solution?
We are looking at having some fold up seats / loungers up there but are still looking at exactly where the solar is going and what area we can easily use... We'll keep you informed on that one - lower priority at present so we have not gone back to finalise that one till we can see the roof.
Fixed kell, vs dagger bords vs. foldable fins. Its like Toyota Landcruiser vs. Volvo XC90 vs. Range Rover Vougue. Things can and probably will go wrong with a Range Rover but I love them anyway. Also, its the most capable in the terrain.
We hear you!!! Cheers for your comment and thanks for watching
I'm completely with u both, really there just is no comparison, the lifestyle of folding rudders and lifting keels is a world away from fixed keels an rudders, the options u have with shallow drafts is simply common sense in my opinion. Good luck to Delos and others. Plukkys got it going on. Can't wait to have so much fun in the sun and sand on Eli-gence 1. Love u both, great vlog, though I'm not sure we can convert to stay hards. 🇦🇺👍💯💜there's no way the 52 will flip, not with all those shoes, hey Eli😘 thank You for the mention, I feel very special. Lets just be brutally honest, the 52 is a complete package, ground breaking inovation, functional architecture, and above all the highest safety considerations implemented. I say folding, lifting and tucking it away, too Easy💯
@@seawench555 you are absolutely right - we know that some will agree and some will disagree - we are all different so that’s life!!!
Ok John now I think I'm starting to understand your relationship with Eli, kudos to the you guys and I hope you get the Cat of your dreams from Portofino, ciao, ciao . . .
Great to hear, Tiny! And we hope the P52 lives up to our dreams too!
I’m on the Odisea line (build begins next month). It’s not really a mumby. Essence of, yes. But the team has really evolved the mumby into something else.
HI Kodiak, congrats on getting an Odisea!!! Very exciting! Our good friends, Ruth and Colette are also on the build line so we are very excited to see their boat get launched!
Yes we know lots about the Odisea as wehad a chat with the Odisea team and went through all the details before we committed to Portofino.We know that they have improved the design to get it to CE certification standards and engineering strength levels. We were trying to not make it too complicated for the "normal" folk while giving the background of the design.
Would you take your shallow draft boat into NSW South Coast Bithry Inlet at high tide?
H IBIll, interesting question! I do not know that inlet but we would take it into Noosa river (which I suspect would be similar... All we would need in say 1m depth at high tide with a bit extra if there is swell to get over any bar. If there are running waves or big swell you need more water or you will bottom out...
Great arguments, with valid points, I think your boat is going to be perfect for how you use it. Obviously, all boats are compromises and one choice may lead to another. Personally, I do not like dagger boards, swing keel seems a much better option. My biggest concern with beaching any boat is the rudder construction.
Thanks Walter - we agree but very few folk build swing keels....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Well it needs a very solid bottom structure, A builder cannot just add it as an extra. Its a structural component with lots to think about for when it goes wrong, making sure it never leaks etc.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Yes and then there are a 1000 other considerations for the rest of the boat.
Indeed!
I’m assuming that there will be some kind of light / notification on your instrument panel that will show that the centreboards are up or down?
Hi Glyn, yes there will be a monitor to tell you where they are, like the rudder gauge on the auto helm.
Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK. One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels still work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht. I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues.
hi Simon, you are so right - outboards (esp diesel ones) are great options for using to dry out with or without mini keels. I sailed a bilge Keeler monohull in the UK in my young days too so fixed keel cats work really well there too!
Anchored up, rudder down, tide ebbing , wind veering , what happens to your rudder ?
Our rudder is not in the sand So the boat will just slide sideways. We also have a stone anchor out the back as well to hold both stable as we bottom out and sit down on the sand. We usually set the bow and stern anchor for the direction of the wind when the tide is coming in not for the direction of the wind as we are sitting down on the sand.
Can I steal (or pay the royalties) about your way to speak when you interpreted a witch saying "Come With Us"?.....it was been really funny. 😂😂😂 Anyway. Thanks a lot for your suggestions and keep going on. Your follower Marco.
Glad you liked it Marco -that is what Eli is naturally like!!!
At the end of the day it’s down to personal choice, I got a boat to go in the water not land. But I get your point on dodging storms, I like being bounced around, I’m just weird like that. I sleep better when there is movement.
Absolutely Paul - there is no right or wrong, just different choices from personal preference so hopefully we will both be happy and both you and Eli sleep well! I always sleep well, even in storms so Eli is the waking up and worrying person....
I love the underwater sunnies Eli !!! I''l be back in an edit after the rest of the show.
Edit: So, I've sailed boats with and without lifting dagger boards and others with swing centre boards but nothing with a fixed keel unfortunately. I would go with a swing centreboard. What I want to know is...since most cruisers rarely clean their hulls, how easy will I t be to get a brush or something similar up into the centreboard case ato clean not only the board, but the case and mechanism that works it? Or will this only be possible when you haul it out? Great video John and Eli, I think you covered all the points necessary. Will you centreboard be Al too?
Thanks Garth for all the points and yes our centreboard is aluminium and buoyant (air inside), cleaning he slot can be done in the water or when lifted out and will be done with a paint scraper if there are tough barnacles or sponge/ scotchbrite/ brush if soft algae. Raffa is designing an electronic growth suppressor for the slot too.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 WOW, I like the idea of an electronic growth suppressor. Can you ask him to build one for me...eternal life here I come! 🤣🤣🤣
Actually I've been electrocuted twice in my life so far so perhaps that explains why I'm so short! 😂
:)))
Great topic choice, I think you just might rekindle an old argument here lol.
Personally I'm designing an 80ft Trimaran, as a friend once told me, get a boat with enough room to hang your toothbrush! Haha. Anyway, the first things that I insisted on were a very shallow draft, center boards and lifting rudders.
With technology available now like the SEA sentry camera and farsounder, you are very safe from obstacles, floating, submerged and bombies alike. So the argument about hitting things is pretty mute with modern tech.
The benefits you get from a no stress night during a storm, parties on the beach, calm time at a rolly anchorage. It's just pure heaven! Plus keeping yourself and your boat safe during major storms can and has been a life and boat saver, it's no joke!
Many years ago I cruised the East coast of Aus, spending over a year in Nth Qld, on a monohull. I cannot tell you the number of times we were so envious of multihulls simply parking on the beach like a Sunday afternoon picnic while we were rolling around totally uncomfortable. These things you never forget LOL.
So YES, I completely agree with everything you said and well done for bringing it up.
Cheers guys 🍻🍻
Hi 3/24, thanks very much for your story that confirms what I was trying to share - and hopefully any other skeptics will read your info too! Good luck with your 80 footer - please tell us more about it and if you have any timeframes / plans / designs etc!!!
On a shallow draft boat would it be possible to raise/lower the keel on command from the depth sonar? Yes, you would do it manually, but as a safety feature if the depth sounder discovers it is shallower then the set it has an auto raise feature to try to prevent grounding? Additional expense sure, but less possible damages?
Great idea Robert and with an electric motor as on the P52 that would be possible. In reality, you always know when you are heading into shallow water (or should know) and in reality the delay in the sonar saying it is 3m sailing at 8 knots and the motor to rasise the centreboard kicking in, I think you would hit anyway!
That is also the trouble with forward looking sonar - great principle but it only works effectively at slow speeds eg under 4 knots, I am told when you are motoring or sailing slowing in shallow water...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Sounds like better sensors would be required, I know it is not the same but look at how sensors on cars have improved.
Which lightning protection system you will have on the new 52?
We do have one planned that we will discuss later (and we mentioned briefly before too). Not very expensive but successful in high risk facilities…
So dagger boards.? Or Swing keels. Any drag. ? More drag. ? I believe that a swing keel is more beneficial and secure. Even if it's more complicated.
Thanks David. Drag would be the same as that is related to thickness and length of the keel. We were certainly happy when Portofino could make the centreboard system work!
One risk with centre boards is the case getting jammed with mud. So think about how it could be pressure washed. On the Gemini it took a couple of hours to clear. After boat was hauled out.
Interesting problem Simon, we never had that with our 42 footer but perhaps there was more space in the daggerboard case to move it around a bit. When it was not used for months and barnacles grew inside the case, we had to swim under and scrape them out but when in use, this never happened... Never had mud trouble but perhaps in the UK there is more mud and if it dries, perhaps it just became solid...
I see this differently. We have had both a fixed keel catamaran and centreboards. The key issue is hull protection if you are going to beach the boat. Mini keels provide protection to the hull from puncture from sharp objects as the keels lifts the hull clear of the seabed.
We used to always like to get close to the beach with our cat, but over the years, we realised that any dodgy moments we had were always associated with being so close to shallow water. A wind shift spinning the boat onto the beach. We then started anchoring in 5 metres of water where we felt safer, the same as monohulls. When the weather starts to do funny things, you have a little more time before things go wrong. In addition, being so close to the beach is normally buggy. Anchor off a little, and there is better breeze and fewer bugs. When you have a good dinghy with a big engine, you really don't need to be on the beach with your cat
Hi Timevans c
Thanks for your comment. We hear what you are saying and you are correct in what you have said. We have too been bumped around from time to time. But all things considered the ability to beach or not is your choice depending on conditions,Tides, timeframes. If it’s looks like it’s best to swing off the pick while weather may be changeable that is your call or choice also. But when those conditions are stable there is nothing like it!!! Cheers
I totally agree with your arguments for a swinging centerboard. HOWEVER, one question I've never heard a good answer to is, why there can't just be one swinging centerboard in the centerline under the bridgedeck (i.e. out of the water when not used)? It would be such a simple construction without a keelbox and only Dynema lines (above water) to fix it in place. Easy to fix when broken, no threat to hull integrity and no antifouling required either. Obviously the centerboard would be surface piercing when in use, creating some extra drag, but how much? PS. The solution actually already exist on some smaller cats.
Wow, that sounds like an interesting idea, Martin. My main concern would be to know if the mechanics with the lines holding it in place would be strong enough to hold it stable - it woudl be good to get an engineer to see if the forces can be managed and possibly use part of the underwing to stabilise the top 3 feet of it... Patent it if it can work!....
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I'm sure your Portofino guys can make the calculations. In some ways, your design has less side support since all the lateral forces are absorbed by a very small top part of the centerboard....!?
Less efficient, due to surface loss. But I would consider it, if ultimate performance is not the objective
Hey guys....little bit of misinformation there. My 62' Cat design Sealegacy1 (ex Elcie) had a shallow draft of 3' (925mm) with daggerboards raised. And she does not have the complication/risk of pivoting/lifting rudders. Our approach is to provide a bullet-proof, solid skeg ahead of the fixed rudder eg. Delos 2.0, Nahoa 55 and other forthcoming De Villiers Cat designs. This has been a feature since the launch of the 62' Cat back in 2008 and is now proven on that boat for ~120 000 nautical miles.
Our apologies David and we’re very honoured that you watch our videos! We were only comparing fixed keels with shallow draft and clearly your Sealegacy falls into the shallow draft category and as we have not been looking at cats that big, our references were only meant to relate to the “smaller” boats that are in production. However we would love to see the design and we are happy to correct our omission in future episodes.
The main point for us was to share our great experiences of the benefits of shallow draft as most folk seem unaware of them. Hopefully you will sell many Sealegacy type designs in the future as a result…
Ps my email is jmcintsh@tpg.com.au if you are happy to share that 62 design please!
I’d love to know the range just under power that your boat is capable of? As well as speed as there’s often no wind and I’d want something that can motor 8 knots and do 1000nm ideally.
Hi Beca, when we have the boat operating we will be able to exactly measure the fuel consumption and therefore the range but with 1000L at 3L/hour at 7 knots (conservatively) we would motor 2333nm or 2000nm at 4L/hr so plenty of range.
Sailing Jupiter has a Mumby with the kick up rudders, watching them in action on their great loop was cool.(not the rudder strikes, but the lack of damage from them)
Yes, when you see the benefits in action, you understand it a lot more but when you sail with them and enjoy the full benefits (if you know to use them) it is even better!!!
This video is excellent!
Glad you think so Scott! Thanks!!!
I see that Delos 2.0 has skegged propellers. I vaguely remember a designer/manufacturer that created a lift-able propeller shaft (I assume they had some sort of universal joint). That design is more complex and certainly heavier, but it would make me more comfortable than a boat with dangling props (even if they are above the draft).
family friend had a cat with a long shaft outboard mounted center of the bridge deck. Conceptually like the common engine configuration on wharrams. Theres a dude working on a wharram in europe atm bringing it back from the dead, hast the same concept but with 2 outboards
Yes our prop will be skegged too but will less keel around it for better prop performance. Moving shaft is interesting and of course for smaller cats, outboards are the effective and easy way out!
I grew up on a 40' trimaran and we had it tidal moored most of the time. I'm building a Mumby Cyber 48 and love the design but want to make some mods to make it easily bleachable. sometimes at low tide being able to drive the 4x4 to it really make sense to me also sailing a shallow harbour on an incoming tide with a soft bottom is great
Absolutely agree and a man after our own hearts! Good luck with your Mumby Cyber 48 build!!! Send us a photos and happy to chat! drjohnmcintosh@tpg.com.au
Centerboard maintained is below the waterline , the open long & large open trunk slot for Marine growth! Additionally, the board hangs on a single bolt pivot!
Yes Norman that is right on both points. If you Have seen our earlier video where we are showing the manufacturing of the pivot bolt you will see it is a huge strong structure and will not be addressed of breaking. Because the Kyaw case is shallow on a centreboard it will be easier to clean the van on a dagger board which is long and very high although it is only ever the below watermark points that grow algae and barnacles.
Portifino has also designed an electronic Aldi suppression system that will work in the centreboard case to suppress growth and work with the anti-foul. Hopefully that will keep it clean and not create too much work for us
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 So long as electronic will not make boat desolve if you no what i mean 😳
Totally agree. We had a Gemini 105 in the UK.
One thought though for areas with large tides fixed keels work. As per your still of a twin keel yacht.
Re engines I am thinking about a Neander diesel outboard on something like a c cat 38. Light powerful, better engineered, no anode issues.
I also like the Seawind 1190. The blade rudder seems a good fix. It potentially allows a spare rudder to be carried.
Hi again Simon and the Seawinds are great boats with excellent use of internal space - very innovative in their day. And yes the diesel outboard would be great!
Im a huge swing keel fan. I live on a Southerly 135 which has a swing keel and a grounding/balast plate, with a 3 foot draft keel up and 10ft draft keel down. I haven’t done much traveling yet, but it is full on next year. One thing I suggest for those Cats that opt for the fixed keel is that those keels should be made to be able to fill with water without sinking the boat. Ie they should be completely outside the water tight and structural envelope of the hulls. It’s so sad to see cats on the reef and sunk because of holes in their keels or failure of the rudders, where instead they should be able to survive a “reefing” fairly well. A shredded Cat keel should not sink the vessel.
Hi again Bill, you are right in that the fixed keels on cats should be watertight from the hulls. I think the Delos one would be because they are storing water there and if if holed, the water will just be mixed with seawater but not get into the hull. The disasters you are used to seeing is the fibreglass boats that just fall apart when the hit rocks, the keeps just tear off completely leaving big holes in the hull that will fill faster than the pumps can control it... Hopefully the damage in aluminium will be dents of only small holes that can be controlled...
Beachability is hard to find in the cat market. Most don’t mention it which usually means it’s not possible. It certainly is what I would be looking for.
Hi Pete, thanks for your comments and some people freak out about beaching… But the more important fact is the shallow draft and the when yo go shallow, it is reassuring that no harm will come if you do bottom out or dry out by accident.
The quality of life in flat protected waters is amazing but some regions don’t have those places so it’s not for everyone.
Hi guys, good video although you can have a fixed keel boat that can sit on the bottom. Seawind 1370!
Yes we did make comment on the video that the fix Kyaw both can sit on the sand they just need more water to do it. Many of the fixed keel cats are designed for that purpose but some do not recommend it like leopard.
Very interesting! -- QUESTION -- One issue you didn't discuss yet, is for for those who are looking to go up the Inside Passage for a few years and into Alaska and maybe, just maybe, the Northern Passage. I watched Alluring Arctic Sailing on youtube and he has an alluminum sailboat (an older Garcia 43/46 type sailboat) and can beach and dry out too - very cool indeed. He even motored through the thin ice layer that formes overnight. But, how would an alluminum Cat handle snowy, and thin ice, in northern conditions vs a sailboat like a Garcia? Could a Cat handle going up north as well as a metal sailboat? I can't find any examples of Cats doing this??
Hi Colleen, certainly Garcias also make the Explocat 52 and the claim that it would be fine in the extreme latitudes in the same way as their monohulls... If anyone wants to do the seriously extreme sailing up (or down) there, you need extra insulation, extra heating and probably some other additions. I do not see any reason for exploration cats not to do that as Delos and Nahoa are certainly talking about it...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ...very cool indeed. We can't wait to see this new chapter in sailing and all that it entails. Future looks amazing!
Hi! Guys! I Agree! I like to almost same like lifting keel and front cockpit (single control point) Back of the boat should have fishing platform+kitchen for cleaning fish and just for bbq+ full solid roof! Paperless Toilets already washlet on market! (toshiba) I don't understand why people using them!?? last and possible to have windows like a car up and down is it possible! cheers! good luck to you guys!
Thanks for the tips!
Aren't we talking about a difference of just 2'6" between a heavy Lagoon 51 draft and a Portafino 52 draft?
Back in the late 90's...I beached my trimaran for 2 days in the Whitsundays, to paint antifoul (you'd get shot for doing that now). All was good until a small squall hit us just as we were about to float her off and small waves started bouncing us up and down on the beach. Typically, fellow cruisers came to the rescue and with every wave helped inch the tri back off the beach. I tell ya, it wasn't good.
Thanks, your show brought back so many memories of a wonderful time in my life. Funny how that scary moment can link to all those memories I'd thought forgotten. Cheers guys
Yes wind change and waves as you relaunch is the biggest risk of being beached so checking the forecast is important (but not always right!!!) And we have so many fantastic memories of being beached!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567
Yes. There were no predict wind apps back then. Just the BOM Marine forecast over the VHF
I have a much smaller cat. I would have in your example have put some tyres below the hulls. As soon as you start to lift, pull then out, the you should be able increase the draught sufficiently to pull into deeper water.
A new aluminium cat, no expense spared, four hydraulic jacks. Also help with anti fouling the very underside.
@@markthomasson5077And those tyres with covers can double as fenders (or even drogues …)
I have no experience of cats and their ‘leeway preventers’ but both my tris had daggerboards and I would NOT go down that route again!Their construction involved expense and time, they were noisy, and required too many inconvenient controls. Although we learned lessons from the first one and made good use of the second’s sacrificial tip (!) I also saw the extensive damage caused by grounding a 60’ Kelsal tri when the top of the d/b rotated out through it’s reinforced case and required hydraulic equipment to extract the also damaged board
To my mind a rotating (centre)board is ideal. A good friend is still cruising his liveaboard Marples 44’ tri and after nearly forty years has had only praise for the arrangement. With quick access through the top of it’s case it means the board, it’s two control lines and pivot pin can be easily serviced or removed without drying
In fact a case could be made (excuse the pun) for just a single such board on a cruising catamaran
Kick up rudders are easy enough to build and use, not just for clearing seaweed and fishing line etc but also for shallows navigation and beaching - at least that was our experience (‘tho we did not have propellors and shafts to consider)
Another informative episode. Cat Greatcircle has an episode titled, stuck in Hill Inlet.
BTW are Barefoot Doctors
Sailing Podiatrists? 😂
Thanks Ruth for reminding us about that. Unfortuable for them, they can really beach so they only got into the opening of Hill Inlet while we go all the way up to behind Whitehaven beach and because we were designed to beach, it was no stress!
Dagger boards is the way to go.....the only way to deal with storms.....u can slide with big waves situation.....fixed kill will bite in.
Had both prefer the daggers
Absoultely Mike, we agree. We have also had both and the lifting keeps are our clear preference. It's interesting that folk who have never had lifting keels don;t realise how much better it is so choose the fixed keels for the ease of build / cost....
Guys, I believe you'll get a great well-thought out boat. Not sure about the weight (16.5 tons is not trifle, but lighter than Leopard 50 anyway.). But, I started thinking recently about turbullence that is created by a niche for the centerboard when the centerboard is down. It shouldn't have a big impact, but we have a narrow hull for the performance and at the same time a big "hole" after centerboard (how big is it? about 10 inches width and four feet long?). Does the shipyard have any calculations?
In any case Portofino looks like the best model for its price at the moment. Hope the polar speed diagram you have will be true.
Yes you raise important issues. The slot for the centreboard is only 3 inches wide and we may have a rubber flap form each side to improve the laminar flow - we willed you know for sure in the later stages.
As for the polars, they cannot be exactly right as the program does not allow for several factors like windage, sail inefficiency etc and apparently the computer modelling is usually 10% off even for the racing boats... Still if we can sail close to wind speed easily and without stress and reach 12 knots with ease, we will be very happy... That is probably the biggest thing we are looking forward to finding out after the launch!!!
In the age of automation these things should be standard, of course, highly reliable since most automation things break. I’m surprised, for catamarans, that they haven’t come up with a four-corner anchoring system in conjunction with the main anchor. Imagine dropping an aft anchor per corner with the main anchor. Would that help matters in storms? I’m not a sailor, just had a few exposures. All fun times.
Interesting idea but the4 corner system won’t work because the boat needs to face into the wind and be able to turn as the wind direction alters. The windage or force on the boat is huge if it blows on you sideways …
Seawind 1190 is a performance small cat with retractable keel and rudders and outboards
Thanks for letting us know that Matthew - I only knew about the Seawind 1600 that could do that. That will make a really good boat to get all the advantages we shared then!!!
Two daggerboard benefits.
Fixed keels need a certain speed to effectively generate lift. A daggerboard is effective at a much less speed, so it has the advantage of letting you sail slower! And whilst still making up wind at a very comfortable speed.
If you ground on a reef, a fixed keel will dig in, whereas a flat bottom may allow you to slide across / off.
Two more thoughts.
A single, bigger, board has been shown to be more effective, and surprisingly no noticeable difference on either tack.
You could make an inspection hatch above waterline in the casing, this would help if you got the board stuck, or more likely, stones James in the casing. And would make cleaning/ anti fouling easier.
One last point, a daggerboard casing should be made with a crash box behind. And the front of the board also able to crush. Thus allowing the board to swivel and absorb a collision
My expensive experience says that crush boxes don’t do much to absorb a collision and significant internal repair inside the boat will be required. If there is a haulout facility that is OK’ish, but in remoter parts it would be a major headache
Thanks Mark. Those are very interesting points. I was not aware of the speed issue with dagger boards being effective at low speeds but that’s an added benefit to add to the list. The crash bulkhead behind the dagger boards would be a good idea if the designers would take that on board but fortunately with a Portofino and the rotating centre board it will just kick up.
@@Kathikas1 so they must work..otherwise you would be telling us your boat sank!
@@markthomasson5077 The advantage of multis - there is at least one more hull for floatation!
@@Kathikas1 as long as the water doesn’t come over the bridge deck…it has happened
Great minds hey!!!!👍
Enjoyed that . . 🙂
Great.. us too!!
Dyneema floats if you made panels of Dyneema rope and cloth that was sealed with vinyl. These panels could be secured between the hulls making the boat a hovercraft. We have leaf blowers that produce 250mph blasts. This could lift the boat and the boat could be kedged with an anchor to deeper or shallower water. This could help you hide from a storm or in deeper water for sailing.
Wow, interesting concept Rick! Get it to a nautical engineer and see if the figures work!!!! Would be amazing!
leaf blowers get you hovering well above high tide line@@barefootdoctorssailing8567
Would your boat be able to survive structurally being washed up un a beach unlike the Wandering Hillbilly?
Yes it would survive grounding as long as it was not being pounded by large waves onto rocks...
My observation of the grounding of the Hillbilly is that the critical failure was the prop shaft support struts punching straight up through the hull. This flooded the engine room. With the added weight of water in the boat the damage accelerated even though the waves were not very large at the time. The struts had fairly small metal plates where they attached to the hull and were not in line with a bulkhead. Even on sand, when the weight of the boat pushed the prop shafts up the hull failed at the strut attachment points. Boats that can motor at high speed really like to have their props be the deepest thing to be in smooth water flow. If you only motor below hull speed then the props can be shallower than the bottom of the hull and/or protected by skegs. Struts aligned to mount at a bulkhead, so that they collapse before punching through the hull, or watertight bulkheads isolating the rudder and prop shaft strut mounting area might have saved the engine room from flooding and reduced the damage.
I like the simplicity of a fixed keel but if I was inclined towards a shallow draft I’d go swing keel
Very few folk have experienced the benefits of shallow draft and if you live in areas that it is useful, you would be amazed at how nice it is!
Ok, Thanks, that was exactly what i was wanting to hear…
How big of a deal is the Nani engine choice?!’ Again, he kinda makes it sound like there are Nani parts hanging on every shops wall? Do u think thats even a real enough benefit, (enough so to buy a nani instead), OR, because the engines are new, it wont even matter until years from now, (if ever), when the motors are older?
@@mahyala_ Hi again, Mahyla, I think Nanni parts are easily available around the world but so are Yanmars and certain countries will be bringing in emission controls esp Europe and You will not be allowed to take engines like that into certain countries- France, & Italy are doing it already and it will only get tighter.
I think a detect a certain bias! Me too.
Yes Mark very clear bias but each to their own and as we said before there’s no right and there’s no wrong just different choices. The worst thing is when people make choices without the correct information and this is what we are trying to fix.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567
Actually quite simple.
Daggerboard for sailors
Fisted keels for motor-sailors.
Perfomance cats can run fast from storms and point higher! Rudders can modified to be lifted! I would not want to sit through storms with lightning risk! I guess if you have a heavy slow boat there is no alternative!
Yes that's mostly right. But rudders and difficult to change design to allow them to be lifted - they usually have to be designed in at the build stage and very few builders care because not enough sailors ask for it... Start asking the brands to put it in to get more options in the market if is is important to you!
I think you could also include in the negative in terms of "costs" is "how often am I REALLY going to beach the boat?"
Let's say that flip keel/rudder feature costs you $50,000 extra to build. How many days are you truly living beached? Even in the bahamas, I don't see many beaches I would feel comfortable beaching for prolonged periods of time. Maybe a day or two for fun. But how often will this really happen? Maybe 10-20 days over a couple years? How much did that feature cost, per day, plus maintenance, to have? Because it seems like it's costing the same as a really awesome hotel suite per-day to have a boat with this feature.
So for me personally, just not worth it. Fixed sacrificial keels better for how we sail.
Thanks guys for your comment and it probably varies a lot with where and how you sail. With Alba Dash, we used the shallow draft every week and at least 50% of the time in Australia. In Indonesia there were less suitable places to beach but the shallow draft benefited us about 25% of the time...
There are many beachable spots in the Bahamas (cays, beaches that get exposed, spits etc) but more importantly there are millions of places that normal boats can't go because it is too shallow - even sailing down Waderick Wells, around Staniel Cay - almost everywhere there are channels you can shelter in that most folk just go in their dinghies,. You may remember all the spots where you would have anchored off and taken the dinghy in to check out the shallow channels between islands etc... Look out for them next time and see what we are talking about!
It saved our boat from Cyclone Debbie so that alone made it worthwhile and I don't know what the daggerboards cost (cwerrtinly did not cost us $50K as we built it ourselves) but for us it was certainly worth it...
How many times will you beach your boat instead of paying big $$$ to haul out just so you can repaint your antifouling or throughholes/inspection required for INSURANCE??? A lot of times... How many times will you beach your boat instead of paying MOORING fees? A lot. Who likes hopping onto a dingy to get to shore? No one; and you do not carry 2 dinghy's which usually leaves ONE person on land and ONE person on the boat with no way to get to the other as get this, WE NEED SPACE awwwwwaaaaaayyyyyy, yes, AWAY from our wife/husband regularly!!!! If you beach your boat no one feels burdened with the knowledge that to GET said space AWAY from the other you leave them with NO WAY off the boat or vice versa.
Next, a LOT of regions of the world you want to TIE to shore, as not enough room to anchor and swing about, but do not want to ACTUALLY beach your boat. No rudders in way this is NOT a problem. Same goes for no KEELS. These regions often have large tidal variation which means you still swing some, but you are not exactly worried as your draft is SHALLOW.
@@w8stralit's against the law to antifoul like that in Australia....
@@laurapitre5797 Baloney. You can't scrap your hull in the water in Australia? Not true.
@@w8stral you cant beach paint antifoul in AUS. You can clean a hull on a beach, you can do annodes, I have personally replaced through holes on a beach but not painting allowed
I have swinging boards and lifting rudders on my Gemini and nothing is nicer than creek crawling into a sheltered drying spot to spend a quiet night flat. Complicated tacking? No not really you rapidly get used to it.
It seems like people have to experience that wonderful safety to really understand it. When I hear the people who have never had shallow draft boats saying it’s no big deal they have clearly never had the joy of safety and flatwater in a howling Gale.
I love a good can of worms. With tobasco?
Yip, spice it up!!!
Fixed keel. Why? Two less things to worry about and when things go wrong, they go wrong badly and expensive to fix. I had an experience on a dagger board boat where we got distracted navigating close to shore upwind, keels were down, port side hit a rock and was badly damaged. Couldnt lift it, boat got swung around, managed to back away with engines. Messy. I have been on fixed keels when we have hit something, but aside from a gouge or scratch, the fix was realtively cheaper and we sailed on even with damage. And there is data out there to show that the difference in pointing ability is not that much (for a racer maybe) but for crusing its more dependant on the boat. Seawinds fixed keels for instance point really well. But most crusisers try to avoid upwind anyway and you dont ness daggerboards after that 😊
Yep totally get your point! Pros and cons with both, but that is on thing we really missed and didn’t think we would as much as we did. Cheers for your comment!
Hi Sandy, we agree with you in that improved upwind performance is the least important factor in our choice... Two points on your unfortunate grounding - were there not sacrificial tips to your daggersbonards and fixed keel GRP boats will sometimes hole their hull when you hit reef with speed... We have seen both and lost the tips of our daggerboard twice in 20 years but no other harm done - and fixed keel damage to hull with big leak is more worrying that daggerboard you can't raise.... However our P52 will give rotate upwards if we hit anything at speed so should be fine and of course aluminium is very much stronger than GRP for running aground in any way!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 it was meant to break, but the theory was that the speed/hit was too slow to break but just enough to cause a kink that prevented lifting. In the fixed keel incidents, we were lucky that the keel stayed on as if it had fallen off, we would have grounded the hull on a reef. I guess it depends on the bot but on Seawinds the bottom of the hull seems pretty strong.
Nice informative video, thank you. Now of I go on a wild tangent and hope you do not mind me playing devil's advocate here on these fancy new aluminium catamarans (I am just so very jealous, so have to). I like what I see and hear, that is certain, but has anyone looked into metal fatigue and corrosion resistance? So many welds and potential sharp corners that presents high stress points and possible difference in materials. What is the design lifetime of the aluminium structure when exposed to continuous strong wave action? Aluminium designed aircraft have a lifetime where after they are permanently grounded. The US Navy has aluminium trimaran littoral combat ships that are severely affected by structural failures when operated under moderate to high stress states. Then there are also the "aggressive corrosion" issues these ships have. Plenty of info on the web on these specific Austral build ships. Maybe you two or anyone of the other 'alu-cat' channels can look into this can-of-worms (if such does exist, that is). I do not remember anyone discussion this issue on sailing channels. I raise this concern as I was fortunate to have discussed (many years ago) aluminium as a structural material with a very skilled builder. This guy in his past has build large aluminium boats and he conveyed to me the issues they encountered and the lessons learned. I learned from this builder that aluminium is not an awesome choice where vibration and shock loading is involved, can be done yes, if you are aware of these issues (characteristics) and have accommodated them. I hope to see the state of these same TH-cam 'alu-cats' 10 years from now after transiting many many thousands of miles and if they have encountered any structural failures. Thank you for your great channel. Cannot wait to see the two of you sailing away on your new ‘alu-cat’. Regards.
Hi Pieter, thanks for all that info about the problems that Aluminium has had. Over the decades the builders learned the lessons to block the corrosion(electrolysis) and with AL we are very focussed on that with6mi itirson the oat to measure any current or voltage differential. Finally enough electrolysis also occurs on other boats as experienced by the Wynns But because they were not aluminium they haven’t focused on that issue. The boat has undergone a very comprehensive structural testing and we did one video on that issue as well so I’m confident that the issues he described on repetitive strain will not happen because the weight and the forces are spread over such a big area.
The other thing to remember is that before carbon and the high-performance materials aluminium mostly material of choice for racing boats which suffered profound and repeated forces And we will certainly not be putting our boat through those sort of experiences. However at the end of the day we will see if we are right but we are very confident that those issues have been addressed. Thanks very much for your detailed comments
Even fixed keel catamarans have a quite low draught, when compared to a monohull. The Portofino 52 has 70cm while Delos 2 has 120cm. A monohull with the same interior room (60+feet) has at least 3m. That's because the keel of a monohull must counter the heeling of the boat.
Yes you are right about the depth of monos being deeper but with the mini keels of cats, the shallower they are, the worse the upwind performance will be so, as always, there are compromises and choices to make. The difference between 70 and 120cm is still significant if you are trying to get up into mangroves or creeks with a hurricane coming down on you and in the Bahamas, the tides are not big but the flow of water is immense!
But of course aluminium cats with mini keels can beach / sit on the sand if the tides allow so they do get all those advantages....
Hi John,
Centerboards are interesting, seems to be some good pros.
What your thoughts on pocket fouling from growth and mud and the required maintenance.
Will this need regular hual outs? What was your experience with daggerboard case maintenance? I assume this could be done in the water, not so sure about the centre board pocket cleaning while in the water.
Good questions Darren. The centreboard can be dismantled on the sand when the tide is out and the "pocket" is shallow so we can easily get into it to clean if barnacles ever grow. Portofino is putting in an electronic device to reduce growth of algae and barnacles in there too.
Cleaning daggerboards is a bit more difficult as the slot is so long but it is usually only the bottom 3-6 inches that grows stuff so you can reach it with scrapers... Can be done in the water but easier out of the water and good antifoul also slows growth.
I got to see this, and I thought the pocket was at the lowest point of the hull.
Sorry, what I wrote was confusing- we cannot clean the pocket on the sand as the boat is sitting on it, we would clean the pocket when floating. But maintenance of the mechanism and rotation pin can be done on the sand when the boat is dried out and then put back together before floating off.
Don't anger Tim Mumby by calling the Odisea a Mumby ;-)
I believe they "bought" the design off him so IU presume he received a nice payment to use his design so we really hope he is happy with the outcome...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I only have 2nd hand information on the matter. So I refrain from adding fuel to the rumor mill. But I stand by my comment.
@@tcurdt No worries but the actual history, we understand is that the Odisea is taken from the Mumby design so this fact is not in dispute surely, and it was done with Tim Mumby's approval?
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 It is based on the Mumby design. I would keep it at that ;-)
Thanks for the videos!
Actually if I were to build a catamaran it would be a power cat with no sails. I would work in at least 20kw of solar and a couple thousand gallons of fuel. I would trade the cost of the sails and the rigging for the cost of diesel and lithium iron phosphate batteries.
So there would be no keels or dagger boards. And yes it would have the prop and rudder higher than the bottom of the hull so you could beach the boat.
Yes indeed, there are many good motor cats that beach and I think in one of the photos of Alba Dash on the beach with Eli at the front left of the photo, you can see a motorcar beached behind Alba Dash.
How do you stop fouling of the centre board casing so the board doesn’t get stuck? On a side note all you YT channels will cross paths in a bar one day and there’ll be biffo 🤜😂
@@SailingSeahorse2025 Certainly barnacles and algae growth on the lower part of the Centreboard case and you just have to keep up your antifoul and scrape it if it builds up to much it’s much worse when you leave the boat on used for long periods of time in the water.
Most of the channels will create arguments just for the views and usually both sides get more views as well! Of course in any group there are some you just don’t get on with so you leave them alone…
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 yeah. Those monohull guys can all go sit at a table of their own 😂
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 One of the well established realities of certerboard cases for cruisers, especially where there is no in-water access to the inside of the case because this was designed below the DWL, is that the only time access for maintence or cleaning is adequate or convenient is when the board has been removed. At all other times it is seriously compromised. The fact this did not make it onto your list of cons suggests you may not yet be aware this.😐
Hi EC, Sorry I am missing your point. We access our daggerboard case on our 42 foot cat from below in the water. The water level goes up about foot higher than that but the majority of algae or barnacles on in the bottom 2-3 inches. We can reach up with our arms and tools high enough to get above the water line....
We can also pull the daggerboard up and out of the case whenever we want and never had to do anything inside the case in the 20 years we had her. What sort of maintenence are you talking about?
you always talk about lifting keels , however the mechanics of lifting keels as if they will afford safety but they are no more safe than daggerboard because they require crew intervention as do the rudders !
The safety we are referring to is the automatic kick up with impact if you hit anything. This does not require crew intervention as it s a compression fitting that just gives way. Thanks for all your input Norman!
Thank you for your responce, however , after centuries of the limitations of having just 3 categories of under water appendages [ those being Keels, Daggerboards, and Centerboards ] it is amazing Naval Architects still accept using the same old limiting design like Centerboards because of the limiting Dynamic function. Centerboards beyond the size of the bolt used the pivot of the board negates the foil form as it archs aft ,additionally, the center of effort
and ballance are moved Aft causing imbalance on the helm steering pressure. Traditionally, because of the nominal radius of the limitation of the head pivot size the trunk loading is imposing. Worst of all servicing of the board requires
dropping it out of the slot from under the boat while being hauled at great expence.
It amazes me that despite the advancement of a 4th category appendage
of SCABBOARDS which preform like daggerboards but provide the SAFETY
of centerboards without the negative attributes noted above. It would be
refreshing if Naval Architects kept up to date on the design improvements
afforded beyond the old schol 3 categories and considered SCABBOARDS.
SCABBOARDS raise automatically without winches nor hydronic/ electric.
Unlike centerboards they withdraw vertically, up & forward upon impact
instead of Aft like centerboards with equal speed and safety. comparable
to dagger boards they maintain their hydrodymamic foil shape throughout
withdrawal but unlike daggerboards they do not rise above the deck when up!
SCABBOARDS are completely serviceable from above Deck while weighing similar to centerboards . Ther are many other attributes to know so if you wish to learn about them feel free to send me your Email and I will send more info.
It’s true!
Comparing modern sailboats to airplanes highlights how outdated sailboat technology is. Today’s sailboats resemble World War I biplanes: non-retractable keels (wheels), shroud-stiffened rigs (wings), external steering wheels, and metal hulls built over frames and stringers.
I plan to build a new boat with retractable centerboards and rudders, an almost freestanding mast with forestay and backstay only, UHMWPE „Strongall“ hulls, and a sailplan without a mainsail.
Did you know aluminum production emits 17 tons of CO2 per ton of aluminum? In contrast, UHMWPE production emits only 1.5 tons of CO2 per ton. UHMWPE also requires no antifouling, painting, or corrosion protection, and is energy-efficient to recycle, resulting in low CO2 emissions.
All the best to you both and see you on the water soon.
That is very interesting Pawel! The UHMWPE is used in making smaller boats so what are the other specs like - eg strength, relative weight etc. Could that be the product of the future? Give us more details on how you are doing it - do you build with flat panels ro do you mould them?? How you you make joins etc...
Just another tiny question... if I can be so bold as it may be a bit political... I noticed that Delos is building in Australia and that you guys originate from Australia... I think Delos started the build after you guys started your build and this fact may be the answer... Were you aware of existence of the Australian shop that is doing the Delos build, prior to your decision on where to build? I guess what I am asking is why didn't you decide build with the Delos shop?
Hi Colleen, that is a great question and when we were looking for a shipyard to build our boat we had a long wish list including front cockpit, shallow draft, lifting keels and rudder (reachable), high performance, good living space and more. While the front cockpit put most builders out for us, lifting keep and beachability put out the rest. Portofino was the only yard that was willing to design the mechanics to create the rotating centreboard, and they were already offering amazing extra features like the transom walkthrough door, front trampoline ladder, piped pressured air, automatic fuel polisher and much more...
The Mumby design (now Odisea) was the closest thing to want we wanted but still missing many of the features we wanted.... Building in Australia woudl have been much easier but the quality, finish and extras made the extra hassle of doing it in Dubai worthwhile!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 ..fair enough and a nice detailed answer! We had thought that maybe you had discovered some quality issue with that shop in Australia or something like that. Good to hear that it was other considerations... Seems like Aluminum Cats are all the rage right now and it is so interesting to watch them being built. Any chance you guys could get into the shop in Dubai and do entire episodes on the construction sort of like Delos is doing? It is fascinating to watch and learn it all.
Eagerly waiting to see you both set sail on your Portofino 52.... Maybe maybe, i am more impatient than you both 😂
You must be ~REALLY KEEN if you are more keen than us!!!! Good on you!
Ha ha yep we are all sooo excited. We are a bit like a couple kids getting close to Santa coming!! 😂