Carriage Drilling on the lathe
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 เม.ย. 2022
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Absolutely LOVE that you lower the volume when doing the actual machining operations. So many machining videos feel like they want to give me ear damage. Here it feels like you give us workshop hearing protection like if we were with you in the workshop :D
I love when that is noticed :-)
Its a significant part of editing and takes time, but I dont like to get my ears blown out either :-D
@@StefanGotteswinter Yes we notice Stefan. Thankyou. Its appreciated. 🙂 But as my background is sound editing, I just can't resist spending as much if not more time in sound editing on my videos (see my last machining video on my channel if interested).
I thought you just had a very quiet lathe 😊
@@StefanGotteswinter Definitely appreciate.
Thanks for the information, I learn a lot from your channel.
@@machineshopatthebottomofth3213 me too 😂😂
I love it when you bust myths in your videos. It’s so bizarre how people get stuck on certain methods and have no idea why they do it but insist it must be done.
Wow, I knew it was practical to drill with the carriage but some of these tips really blew my mind.
Had never even considered how practical it would be for use with taps!
I only just did this myself for the first time recently. I have built a multipurpose spindle, optionally powered, which I can fit to the toolpost of several of my lathes, mainly for drilling PCDs (with the lathe spindle locked) and wobble broaching (mainly for internal hex holes), but I recently had to tap a large number of M3 threads in gnarly work-hardened stainless, and so I used the spindle (which has an integral ER32 collet holder) as a passive tap holder in my sensitive little instrument lathe, whose carriage moves wonderfully freely. I provided sensitive and quick-releasing torque restraint by hand-holding the collet nut. This worked really well and I broke no taps. (The lathe has a nice progressive clutch on the spindle drive)
27:12 I've really come to appreciate your filming skills as much as your machining skills. Thanks for the ideas as always
Dear Mr. Gotteswinter, I really appreciate your practical approach to everything and your generosity to share your knowledge and experience. Thank you. Long time subscriber
I'm not sure if everyone appreciates the quality of the knowledge given back to the world.
@@minigpracing3068 i sure do
@@minigpracing3068 But many of us do, and that is the important thing! I find it wonderful that these people have a platform to share the knowledge they have acquired. Consider in the past a master may have passed their knowledge to a very few people, now many may benefit!
Thanks for the mention Stefan and I agree on every point you mentioned :)
ATB Robin
Thank you Robin :-)
Stefan mentions disengaging the carriage feed to break chips. On some industrial lathes the feed rod, where it emerges from the gearbox, has a tripping and self-resetting overload clutch which can be easily adjusted and which is cleverly designed not to suffer undue wear from being called into play. In such cases you can break chips regularly without disengaging the feed, by momentarily applying a bit more (reverse) load to the carriage handwheel than the clutch will currently overcome. This is very quick and convenient in comparison with disengaging and reengaging, and arguably is less inclined to wear out the mechanism for doing so.
Gentle giant bends over a small lathe and drills 0,2 mm holes with only eye side adjustment. I, too short for my weight, climbing on bigger lathes, learned a lot. Thank you Stephan!
I'm revisiting this video to find the "if you did that in my shop i'd fire you" comment :)
Might have gone lost ;)
@@StefanGotteswinter Sad! I had a clever retort for him! :). (Diplomatic, of course...)
we all are haha
Very impressed you get to put your < .5mm drill bits back in their case. I don't think I've ever got to return such bits to the holder ... rather the stub into the bin so some great tips here.
Your english skills are starting to match your own workshop skills, gratulliere. There is much wisdom you have to convey. Thanks
This is one of my favourite videos in the whole wide world :-) I watch it often, especially if I'm feeling a bit glum. Thank you Stefan.
And here I am having used center drills all these years... never old enough to learn!
This is brilliant! An additional feature of this method is that the carriage has a much longer range of movement than a tailstock. Mine is theoretically 75mm but the chuck tang drops this to ~60mm. Obviously, the carriage moves further than 60mm and so long drills can use a single pass.
Concept, Concentration, Common Sense and Control! Great demonstration, thanks.
Thanks, great video . Have been drilling with a lever operated lathe carriage so your tips and advice most welcome and useful to me
Cheers👍
Wonderful content Stefan. Thank you.
I love this, there are so many positives using this method, this has made me rethink the drilling operations on my lathe, thankyou for your continual practical logic, fantastic!
I'll second that sentiment
Very cool video, as always. Danke Stefan
Another delightful video.
A few times Stefan you dropped the comment that drilling was a kind of roughing or bulk material process.
Once I got that idea in my head I was able to confront my fear of carriage drilling. I'm already set up with Aloris style tooling and I just invested in a split cotter style boring bar holder with a straight shank to JT on my drill chuck.
I was puzzled about how to use it without DRO though. I was faced with some operation requiring deep holes and necessity was the mother of invention. I just eyeballed the center drill (sorry I use them for spotting 🙂) and with a couple of tweaks had the drill lined up by eye good enough for a roughing operation. I just couldn't face all that cranking on the tail stock to clear the chips.
So again you and Robin do great service to those of us that only aspire to be better with our wiggly old home shop lathes & gear.
I recall you had fitted a rack and pinion drive to your tailstock on an earlier lathe. I can see some advantages to that idea also for some kinds of production runs.
Thanks!
Thank you for expanding this topic. Now that I have seen the micro-drilling demonstration, I am more than convinced to give carriage drilling a try. ATB from Massachusetts.
I really like it when you and @robrenz cover the same concepts. Often you will each emphasize different aspects which provides me with a more complete understanding.
Excellent demonstration and discussion. Thanks.
This video is gold (again) thanks so much Stefan for your time in making these.
This was a very instructive and useful video. I especially liked the sequence with drilling with small drills.
Excellent tutorial and reasoning on the pro's on carriage drilling. During my apprenticeship, one of the lathes I used, the lathe tailstock was so large I wasn't strong enough to slide it on the bed, there was a short lifting strap which hooked over the tool post to pull it towards the chuck, pushing it back was done by using the carriage.
There was a Dean Smith & Grace lathe, that had a cross slide Morse taper holder, cleverly the was a stop on the carriage, that this was pushed against and locked, always on centre line.
Great content and video, thanks for sharing.
Best regards form the UK.
Excellent video, explanation and demonstration. I’ll be testing carriage drilling for sure, but as importantly I really think I am going to remove my compound and make a solid post mounting block. Thanks again.
I like this as much for the rebelliousness of it as for the technical strengths!
Excellent tutorial! Thank you for the great content!
Great video 👍I think the most important thing in this tutorial tells us "Gravity" is always present.
That was a real game-changer for me. Thanks!
Excellent as always. Thanks for a fantastic channel.
Great video as always Stefan! Thanks a lot for the detailed showcase of this ingenious method. :-)
Yet another great video Stefan. Thank you very much for sharing and informing!
Just an idea for someone without a digital readout on their lathe that might be interested in doing this. I've seen arrangements that hook the tailstock body to the carriage. This allows the carriage to drag the tailstock. There may be another option. On a lathe that on might typically find in a home shop. 9"/225mm up to 12"/300. This also depends on just how the compound is mounted to the Cross Slide. If the lathe has tee slots in the Cross Slide it makes things easier.
1) Remove the compound.
2) Build the device that you want to hold drills etc in. But do not final bore the holder
3) Position the Cross Slide in the center on its travel. Mount the Drill Holding Device to the Cross Slide. Mount this so that the device is pretty well centered to the Spindle.
4) Now drill and ream one or two holes for locating pins through the Drill Holder, the Cross Slide and into the Carraige.
5) Install pins. These could be straight dowel pins, tapered dowel pins or straight shear pins. Shear pins might be a good option as to provide a failure point if you have a crash.
6) Now finish bore the drill holding device so that when the locating pins are in place the the unit is installed on the lathe with the locating pins in place
7) When not in use place short dummy pins in the Cross Slide portion of the holes to prevent chips etc from getting into the sliding surfaces.
On industrial machines I used to run there was another option on the tailstock. The hand wheel was mounted on a two speed planetary drive that allowed fast and fine feed. The fine feed made it possible to use larger drills without having to use cheater bars or have arms like a gorilla's.
I don't have DROs on any of my lathes but I do have 50mm travel Dial indicators (100 mm on my big lathe) which read z axis movement relative to a datum anvil repositionable along the bed, on the far side of the carriage from the headstock. When Stefan talks of the benefits of a DRO for following the progress of a drill when using the carriage, I can't help thinking that an analogue dial is even more convenient and restful, as for 95 percent of the time are processing the smoothly changing angle of a pair of needles, only looking at the graduations and numbers when you need to, right at the end, when in any case you are creeping up to a size. With a DRO it's a much bigger cognitive burden, processing rapidly changing (and hence flashing) digits in base 10, increasing or decreasing, and converting them to an analogue "sense" of the drill location in relation to the ultimate depth.
With difficult ultra workhardening materials like Inconel and Nitronic, it's really important to know just when the drill is about to reengage, as you have change the rate of advance so as to "hit" the work with just enough speed and follow-through to be instantly cutting but not too aggressively (which would might chip the cutting edge), and yet be ready to increase that force considerably as the drill starts to work and has to be fed at the optimum rate to avoid strain hardening, which latter would instantly take the edge off and probably weld the drill down the hole. Anything which reduces the cognitive burden is a big help, as you can't always be on your A game.
I do have a genuine Trav-a-Dial I plan to fit to my big lathe, which I think would be even more convenient, as it has unlimited travel, and that is a long lathe. Once again, an analogue dial.
I think the perfect solution would actually be an electronic three-axis DRO (tailstock or compound being the third) with a high resolution screen and (as a selectable option and conceivably not on all axes) analogue dial readouts, like the analog clock displays which are optional on a mobile phone -- but much handier on a DRO, because of the rapidly changing positions being monitored, in comparison with the slow and steady pace of time.
It occurred to me that a better analogy would be with altimeters particularly those used by jumpers. wingsuit maniacs, etc, where the readings can change very rapidly and the jumper has other demands on their cognitive abilities. Sure enough, there is a very sophisticated digital altimeter with an analog display which has recently been released, the Larsen & Brusgaard Altitrack.
A really Rolls-Royce implementation would process the sum of two scales for the tailstock, to track the position of the tooltip, regardless of unclamping and moving the tailstock casting.
@@Gottenhimfella
Having used both DROs and Trav-a-Dials on manual lathes I really prefer the later. It is much easier to track just when you are coming up to "zero". Other options I've used to set bed stops on lathes is an inside micrometer. Or solid stacks of gage blocks
Another great video. Interesting and informative. Thanks!
I just got a MT3 quick change holder for a project I was doing for work (I work at a lab and all machining requiring more than a drill press is done at my house machine shop). I was working on something where I needed to do 1/4" deep drilling on 20 pieces of PTFE. I made a few prototypes using the tail stock and got fed up with that quickly. Glad I can run the drill on the carriage now.
I love these tips and techniques videos. Super helpful
Aw yes finally ive been waiting for this one this is awesome. It's got German precision all over it. Love it! Thanks so much Stefan
Enjoyed!!!…excellent video production/discussion/demonstration…..great lessons
Brings to mind the old pre-cnc capstan lathes with multiple drill chucks in the rotating capstan head.
@Mark I have a small one of those as a second op lathe. It is still very useful for prototyping and small series etc, quick to set up. I find I use it a lot. Essentially a Schaublin 102 with a turret head and F38 collets. These have frequently been on the market for cheap, i got mine with lots of tooling for about 1000$, great quality machine for the money.
@@erikisberg3886 I bet there are a lot of capstan lathes on the market due to the penetration of affordable CNC machines into small and medium sized shops. At the school where I was teaching we briefly had a medium sized machine with lots of tooling but it was sold on to a guy who just wanted a few parts off it. I just realised that I have a BXA tool holder with a bore big enough to take a 10mm keyless chuck so I think I will have a go at trying Stefan's technique although I don't have a solid toolpost. Repeatability might be an issue but for the occasional use it would be great.
Great instruction video Stephan! I've been contemplating adding this feature to my Clausing lathe. My carriage has a light feel and I like the idea of not having to reposition my carriage and cross slide especially running multiple parts... Going to purchase a morse taper Aloris holder for my tool post and use the dro feature you demonstrated. Great trouble shooting explaining in the video! Thanks for your time and sharing Stephan! 👍😎✌️
You never disappoint!
Your videos are always interesting and informative!
Thank you! :)
Lovely! I have used those tiny drills in a 2.5m tall milling machine. Not a lot of feel but absolutely doable at modest RPM with patience.
I have on occasion used the carriage to drill with using a power drill in a holder so it is like live tooling on my lathe. It saves a lot of time versus setting back up on the mill to do the holes and with a 40”chuck I get good rotational accuracy just using degree markings.
Great video. Not that this would be a problem with your setup. One place I worked the guys that ran some larger machines than yours. On 19" and 21" Leblond lathes. They would run larger drills with the power feed like this. Now what drives the carriage is the pinion gear on the rack mounted to the underside of the ways. They would either bend the pinion's shaft or strip the teeth on the rack (Or usually both) by the loads of large drills. But they were usually drilling with larger than 1.50" diameter drills to make this happen in tougher materials.
And I can now ditch my (expensive) Akon tap- and die holder set which goes into the tailstock. Even last year I spent money for an MK3 adapter as I only had the MK4 for a previous lathe. Mr. Gotteswinter, you are a life saver!
Thank you for the timely video Stefan. I am just around the corner from buying a carriage drill for my Aloris set up. I may simply use a boring bar holder as well. Food for thought. Cheers.
Thanks Stefan for another great video very informative and very well presented
Thanks for showing. Very insightful.
Love the rage on aluminium swirls at the end. Great video, thanks
Yes, we definitely enjoyed it! 👍
Love the amount of "meh" for sub-par methods :)
Also I am about to fit a DRO to the lathe and didn't like putting the scale in front for workpiece clearance issues or behind for tail-stock clearance thinking it affects the stickout of the quill BUT if I drilled with the carriage....
Keep up the good work
Walking through the step by step process on the touchpad is next level shit, thank you!
An interesting and thought provoking video. Looking forward to adding something similar to my Myford Super Seven. 👏👏👍😀
I've been waiting for this so thank you, Stefan! 👍👍
I'm definitely going to give this a try on my lathe as I hate messing with the tailstock also.
I am so going to do this on my lathe soon hopefully. Thanks Stefan!
Thank you Stefan, always very interesting 👍😊
Very informative Stefan, thank you for sharing,
Amazing, thank you for answering my question!
I was just about to comment and realized that Kezyka said pretty much the same thing...which is..that Emco makes less noise then my powered toothbrush! Man o man those are nice machines. This was a super informative video Stefan. I absolutely love what I learn while watching your content.
Great video, picked up many good tips!
Been using my multifx with a drillchuck and an ER16 collet holder similar to this for many years in my Weiler Condor, a slightly larger lathe. I usually have a lever feed in the tail stock and it is fairly cumbersome to change to the original screw feed. For drilling grabby materials like plastics and brass the carriage method really saves the day. I am a bit concerned about running larger drills than the lathe likes though. Straight thread in feed is the way to go, has been doing it that way for a long time despite other opinions. but perhaps on older crappy lathes angled infeed made more sense.
Started using core drills after I saw it on Your channel, works really great!
For me the lever feed works well down to sub mm drills though. For really small drills I made a small pin vise on a ground shaft that I just feed with finger pressure. Works really well because the fingers feel both the torque and feed pressure nicely. It seems to me that a single lip D bit centerdrill is preferable for small drills. Would be interesting to hear others experience on this.
I also recommend the plastic squeeze bottles with blunt syringe tips, they really work well, I use them for everything. Denaturerad ethanol is good for machining aluminum and is not to bad for the health compared to the number of beers You may ingest anyway (within limits of course...). Big advantage is that the surface after machining is essentially oil free. I glue a lot of Al parts with heat curing epoxy and this saves a lot of prep work compared to cutting fluids.
spectacular as always, particularly the tiny hole drilling. Very flexible setup.
A flexible setup for a solid result! 😀
Thanks mate for showing your methods & setups ,this way is much quicker,
Stefan, thank you🙏. You’ve definitely converted me. 👍👍😎👍👍
You are just sensational........I have been puting it off for some time now, BUT, I am going to start the compound replacement tomorrow.....thanks for the inspiration........and the 20 hours work.....haaaahaaaaaa
I made a similar tool holder for my multifix, but rather than taking a boring bar or Morse taper, it's bored 0.75in so I can use er16 collets on tormach TTS holders.
It's wonderful to change tools and maintain offsets when doing a small batch of parts.
I really like that 3 edge spot drill, crazy small! :) thanks for sharing!
Great vid Stefan 👍😁👍. I made a quick and dirty carriage drill chuck out of an old Black & Decker drill. Very low accuracy chuck but since you can dial it in the holes still come out quite precise 😊.
This was a very interesting video. Thanks for sharing
Thank you for this. Enjoyed! Thanks, -Tom
Morning, Stefan! This clearly is the "This Old Lathe" channel :)
The fact that a 0.2mm drill exists at all makes my brain itch.
Stefan, you just keep costing me money! After seeing this I had to buy a new Rohm chuck an adapter for a 3/4" 5C collet AND a 5C collet holder for my QCTP. You're making it difficult for a retired guy!!! lol Keep it up!
A really interesting approach.
I just this week had to drill some MD filled Nylon to 63mm x 250mm deep. Using the carriage was the only viable way, given rapid peck drilling and clearing is required to prevent melting the Nylon.
The lathe I was using doesn't have a DRO, so to keep track of depth progress I use a small pot magnet with a thin piece of plastic glued to the face. I just stick it to the lathe way and let the carriage push the magnet along as the depth increases. When I retract the drill (or boring bar for that matter) the magnet stays puts and acts as a tell tale. Using that method I can use the rapids on the carriage to retract and return to work without fear of a crash.
On my smaller lathe that has a DRO, I use a needle bearing inner ring in the chuck and a ground dowel pin in the drill chuck along with the 1/2 function on the DRO. Very quick and no indicator involved.
I don't even own a lathe, but I'm sitting here thinking how much easier doing this would make my life If I had one. Now I want a lathe. Thanks Stefan.
If you are in the U.S., Craigslist can be a great source for machinist tools if you use it well. You can set up a listing search filter such that when someone posts a listing for a lathe you will get an email alert. That's how I got my 9x20 Central Machinery lathe 4 years ago for only $200 (including loads of tooling). Between that and a minimill I've setup a fairly decent hobby shop.
This is how I prefer to drill. Not only because when I bought my lathe and it didn't have a tailstock. But that helped force me into it and now that I've done it, it's so much nicer most of the time. Getting the chuck dialed in isn't any more difficult than most other precision operations on a lathe IMO.
Very informative, thank you for sharing you knowledge, best wishes from Florida, USA....Paul
I was just about to go machine something now i have to pause and watch the video 😂👌
I feel your pain. So many great channels preventing me from going to get my own stuff done.
Stefan..
Thanks mate 👍
Another relevant video… very informative.
Regards
Robert
Get rid of the tailstock and the cross slide, and have a quick, accurate and versatile setup. I like it. Always thx for the lessons Stefan.
answered all my questions!
I'm so glad you pointed out that center drills are a different tool for a different job. It always drives me nuts when people spot with a center drill, it completely goes against the point of spot drilling!
I like when people snap off the end of a center drill and try to get it out again. Comedy gold :)
Very nice video, thank you.
Very neat, thanks.
We use an Aloris QC with a 5C collet holder to do this. WAY better than drilling with the tailstock except very large drills like 1.5" and up. We cut short tapers all the time so a compound is necessary.
Excellent demonstration on the tool post drill, and your lathe is envied…lol.
An edge finder (the sprung slide type) can work quite well, just using the feel between the sliding ground parts.
Wow, Love your video.... Great...
Fascinating stuff 👍👌🍺
good video stefan
Stefan, thanks for the presentation.
Totally agree with the threading using 90 degree feed. There is a minor advantage on using the compound for feeding since the compound "remembers" the last cut depth. With 90 degree feed one has to make a mental note on current cut depth.
I would be very careful when tapping smaller threads with carriage feed metod.. M8 is probably not a problem but when the tap size gets smaller, the tap just cannot drag the carriage with it so some other solution might be needed.
If one has a small and affordable eastern world made lathe then chances are that the tailstock quill has a very short stroke. When I had mine, that stroke was about 40 millimetres. This meant that drilling with tailstock involved a lot of moving the whole tailstock around. With carriage feed even the smallest lathes have enough "strioke" to be able to drill with ease.
I tap down to M2 with this method, the carriage on the Super11 is not exactly hard to move :-D
On larger lathes it will be different.
Yes, you have to memorize the last depth when threading like that, but I never found that to be a nuisance - Especially with a DRO :)
WRT tapping small threads: You can just set up the lathe as though you were single-point threading that size, and then use the carriage feed. It'll move at exactly the right rate for the tap, since the tap has the same pitch as you just set it to move at! No issue with it being unable to pull the carriage along and breaking the tap.
When that becomes necessary depends on how hard it is to move the carriage on your lathe. But it's a lathe carriage, it had damn well better be able to cut accurate threads when the change gears/gearbox are set correctly.
That's correct. You can set up a "feed rate" that is actually the thread "pitch" of the tapped thread.
With this setup I would have a hard time to remember to act properly when threading the tap out of the hole.
You probably would need to disengage the feed and then somehow manipulate the tap out of the hole without damage.
This is because there is always a big backslash in feed gears which causes the carriage to get out of thread sync when run the opposite direction.
@@FinnoUgricMachining I would unchuck the tap and remove it by hand. Once it's loose probably hold with fingers and reverse spindle, IMHO. Good point! 👍😎✌️
Damn, these videos are useful! Thanks..
yes I do it with sbha toolholder combination qcth you can working so flexibility on the lathe
Damn, that tiny drill runout was huge. 0.1mm - 0.15mm I wasn't expecting that!
Great video! Reminds me of a schaublin 125, where the tailstock has two speeds. Really nice to be able to peck with ease. Same movement like with the carriage
Oh yes, the famous rack/pinion 2 speed tailstock from schaublin. I saw/played with one only once, but its brilliant :D
All great points... The thing that has me considering changing to this method of drilling is that I have come to rely on using a similar DRO on my lathe and don't have feedback from my tailstock.. Another highly annoying thing to me about using the tail stock for drilling is the very limited amount of travel my particular tailstock has, so deep holes are a lot more work having to play a game of relaying between moving the screw in and out as well as moving the tailstock itself in closer as I drill. When I need to control the depth of the hole I end up doing cheesy things like marking the drill bit itself.
Worked manual lathe in the 1960's with attachment for saddle drilling. Pushed 2" Dia drill thro work piece. We had to get things done to make bonus.
Excellent video !. Using a sliding dieholder in place of a drill chuck on the multifix is another way of not having to drag the tailstock up and down !. I suggested this application on a forum I used to go on here in the UK and was literally laughed at .....
HA! I forgot to show that - I have a sliding Die holder that goes in the boring bar holder, for exactly what you describe there. Works brilliant.
Sliding tapholders are similarly brilliant. I made a sliding quill which plugs into the morse taper of several of my tailstocks, about 300mm linear travel, with a 1" Jacobs Super Ball Bearing chuck at one end and a gokart steering wheel at the other. The spindle is free to turn, restrained by the operator. The wheel is big enough that it is relatively easy to hand hold for tapping M16 with a spiral fluted tap in mild steel, or (using serial taps) in tool steel or stainless, but it is delicate enough to use down to about M5. I've never broken a tap even using it from the MT5 tailstock of my biggest lathe. Both the feed and the torque are under full time sensitive (fingertip) operator control. When I have multiple workpieces to tap, when reversing the spindle to back out I often also spin the wheel backwards by hand to improve throughput -- as with a planetary drive tapping head, but minus the complexity.
Thanks for sharing 👍