Modifying a boring bar (Carbide Shank)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
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Please no more comments towards Jason/Fireball Tools video. I am subscribed to him and have seen it right at release.
You should watch the Fireball Tools video :P *ducks*
The "right" filing technique is the one that gets the job done. It seems a lot of people forget that files are consumables, not heirlooms. :)
Amen Brother!
A quality file is like what 30.00? If I have to replace it twice in my life because is “didn’t use it right”, it is what it is.
@@paulerenberger1286 I buy used ones for like a dollar per...it they are worn out I just soak them in acid...most of the time that fixes them.
Everything’s disposable for you kids. Back in my day, we had to make our own sandpaper from sand and paper, and if the sand fell off, you had to glue it back on. And God help the apprentice who asked the foreman for more sand.
@@8__vv__8 Ask for sand? We had to make our own sand by grinding rocks...
I really appreciate your demonstration regarding the relative "stiffness" of steel vs. carbide. Thank you for the extra effort and time.
Please don't block me. I noticed you were dragging the scotchbrite on the back stroke. You know that may cause it to wear prmaturely. You might even cause it to wear enough that you would have to replace it. Great video. Thanks for sharing.
Oh no! Stefan is a scotch brite abuser.....
Get a marker pen and draw arrows on the scotchbrite and then you can use it in the corrent direction evsry time.
All my scotchbrite pads and sandpaper squares have arrows drawn on them.
So does my carpet mat, so I can walk through the doorway at the correct angle. I'm not going to mention my wife's tattoos...
@@wizrom3046 I know you're joking, but scotchbrite does seem to have a direction. If you want to put a finish on stainless steel then you have to start at one end and use the same piece of scotchbrite in the same orientation using one clean stroke with even pressure. If you turn it 90 degrees then you get a different cut and it looks different.
We made some matte finish stainless backsplashes once and had to figure out how to get even finishes. We found out that direction and orientation of the pad was crucial to getting an even finish.
@@oldscratch3535 haha now I dont know if youre serious (and giving us cool info) or a master troll playing a prank. 🤔🙂
@@wizrom3046 I'm being serious. We tried putting a grain on polished stainless sheet metal and tried a few different methods to get an even result.
We found that if you did a pass, then turned the scotchbrite 90 degrees then the next pass would look different. If you did a pass going away from you, and then one towards you, it would look different. It would catch the light differently. If you did evenly pressured strokes all going in one direction without changing the orientation of the scotchbrite then it would all look the same.
I am a simple man, I see a Stefan Gotteswinter video; I smash the like button.
I'm no machinist. I find the amount of deflection interesting, I had no idea there was that dramatic of a difference between the round stock. Thanks this was very interesting.
Especially that short of a distance of stick out.
G'day Stefan. I'm always impressed of the strength of a silver soldered joint. As for filing techniques, what can be said of the die filer it is a reciprocating motion with no regard to its backstroke, anyhow do it how you like as I think most of us keep our files far too long anyway, I know I do. Cheers Peter
It's a sad day when you have to accept your favourite file's best days are behind it.
PGS. Very good point.
"And then I have yo bock you "....way to go! Awesome. Put those arm chair know it all in their place! Love it!
Bocking as dipping in a strong German lager?
@@super8hell I should not spell while drinking.
@@pontoonrob7948 expexially dirgking Bock
Fireball Tool has an interesting video on filing technique.
Great video as always!
my father would have told me "the right filing technique is the one that doesn't take off too much material or otherwise ruin the job."
Exactly right, sensible pragmatism beats petty and pedantic finger wagging any day.
fireball tools did an *excellent* video proving to those filing-technique pedants that THEY ARE WRONG! dragging the file increases rate of material removal and doesn't hurt file longevity at all.
I was hoping someone posted this. That said on such a hard material it's pretty much irrelevant, the file is going to get hurt whether it's dragged or not.
I have to mention that the demonstration fireball tool did was great but only applicable to modern off the shelf files. I inherited a couple dozen files from my great grandfather that where still brand new in the paper sleeve, if you drag these files the teeth will chip and you will kill the file in a couple of swipes. I absolutely murdered one because i wasn't thinking about it. They don't make things like they did 100 years ago, but in the case of files it might actually be a good thing. Now if you have a modern carbide file, then the old time methods still apply. Nothing like killing a $200 file in 2 seconds, only thing worse than dragging is dropping.
@@pcsmachineworks if the file is strong enough to cut metal going one way, how tf is it going to be damaged going the other way on the same metal? that sounds like some old wives' tales horseshite.
@@douglasharley2440 hard brittle materials chip easily, simple as that. The rest is basic metallurgy. When cutting the tooth is under compression and the force is directed into the tooth, this is when the material is the strongest. Dragging is just bouncing the tooth across the top and pulling the cutting edge away from the body of the tooth, the weakest for a brittle material. Spin a carbide endmill backwards once and try to cut with it, let me know what happens. Modern files are no where near as hard as the old hand made pieces where, and a solid carbide (not the crummy cheap grit ones) are even harder. I've smoked a few old files by dragging them, teeth stripped right off. Newer files are better metal which is more durable and slightly softer so not prone to the brittleness. Same as many other metals or materials. Well used punches and chissels chip at the strike end because they get hard and brittle, bandsaw blades with a lot of miles will shed teeth even though they are still sharp because they work harden and get brittle and chip off. Even concrete works in the same manner. No wives tales, just basic physics and science. Every one revered a file with such regard back in the day because each tooth was hand formed and they where very expensive, some still are. It definitely doesn't apply to most off the shelf mass produced files of nowadays, but at one time in history there was real truth to how a file should be used and why.
@@pcsmachineworks video proof, or I don't believe it. also, I don't got no ancient files so idgaf.
Excellent stress and strain (deflection) comparisons on the materials, never would have figured that it would have been that much. Great lesson !!!! and even better idea on the modification to the bar.
As Stefan demonstrated in a video a few years back everything is made of rubber. Put an indicator on a vise jaw and clamp something up. The fixed jaw will move. How much depends a lot on the design of the vise.
That little grinding vise allways steals the show.
Great mod Stefan, and despite the slightly sketchy setup, the science and the results were really interesting. To be within a few microns of correlation to the modulus of elasticity, is really satisfying to see. Well done, and file how best fits the job! Cheers, Jon
Fancy seeing you here ;)
@@NML666 lol, ditto!!
two ways to increase the precision of the messurement or to judge it.
(regarding the movement of the bars in the vise ):
1 put a bar with a bigger diameter in the vise, and messure the deflection. now you will almost read only the reading the movement in the vise. this is the offset, you can subtract from the other readings.
2 put the other end of the test indicator / magnet also on the bar you messure. so you will messure only the bar itself, regardless it moves in the vise
I really enjoyed the experiment using the Hicator.
Boring bar looks and works great!
Use a file any darned way you want.
So happy i checked my youtube notifications...althought its realy late here to.
Your video's are True jewel of calmt and serenty combined with expert mechanical skills.
Now i gonna watch cheers
Grtz from the netherlands Johny geerts
Surprised you ground all that length of flat on both sides as you reduced the stiffness a decent amount by doing that. It does make setup more convenient though.
Don`t you have a tractor show go to
@@rldoyle5705 well the most stiffness comes from the material furthest from the axis so if the goal is ultimate stiffness those are the last ones you would want to remove. Sandvik and Kennametal both preach about using only clamp style holders on their deep hole bars as the screw type on flats aren’t stiff enough. Obviously Stefan got the results he wanted so it doesn’t matter but I thought maybe the info might help someone going after stiffness gains for a job someday. You are right though I should probably just go back to the barn and not comment.
@@rldoyle5705 this is a curious comment. what do you mean by it?
@@warrenjones744 He may not be aware that Brian has a Master's in mechanical engineering. Very sharp guy.
I would hope Brian is thick skinned enough to let ignorant comments fly straight past him.
That looks great.A fraction of the cost for a commercially available,solid carbide bar.Are the people complaining about your filing technique,buying your files?I think not.
A chinesium solid carbide insert boring bar this size costs about €30. (Remember the business end is Chinese here also). Probably just the blank with coolant holes costs as much
I wonder how much the added mass of the carbide helps damp the vibration along with the added stiffness?
Very nice job Stefan!
you can try to make slightly thicker dampened bar with this carbide rod. make a long tube out of tool steel over this carbide rod, with a loose fit, and fill the gap between tube and rod with a thick grease. there is a many recipes of a composite bars like that.
I've never heard of such a thing...I'd like to see that done
Can anyone tell me how they do the twisted through holes in solid Carbide rods???
Berlin Carbide corporate video english - short version - TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/d-VKMxhe_I8/w-d-xo.html
How do they put those holes in carbide cutting tools? - TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/CE6OxXRwYgs/w-d-xo.html
Watching boring bars with you at the wheel is never boring :)
On the filing technique, fireball tools did a test rig on comparing the different filing techniques and the results were very interesting.
Excellent and informative video Stefan, as usual. Thank you for sharing this content.
Did he file a range of materials? Lifting the file on the return stroke is only useful, in my experience, when filing materials which are comparable in hardness with the file.
Very interesting Stefan - thanks for your time and thoughtfulness.
Hello Stefan, great video as always. Can you share brand and model of the grinding machine you have used?? Regards
The surface grinder? Thats a LIP515
Standardbottle with coathanger at 90mm,, I luv it,, 🥰🤘.
Cheers Stefan,, 🍻😎👍
good job stefan..when you have to use tools with so much overhang, you have to use tools with hard metal handles and thus minimize vibrations...they are quite expensive but in china you can find them at reasonable prices...greetings from Spain
At 13:23, honestly, I expect an expert machinist to be know how to use a file. Therefore, I defer to your judgement in the use of your tools.
What would you do with the dead file? Throw it out or "repurpose" it?
Btw nice one, on pointing out on the flex modulus for hardened/non hardened bars.
I keep hardened things around - sometimes you can hardmill and grind parts that need to be hard directly from something already hardened.
@@StefanGotteswinter Like, say, form tools?
"Fireball Tools" here on TH-cam did extensive testing concerning file dragging for all those file aficionados that bothered him regularly as well: th-cam.com/video/xbykic--SKA/w-d-xo.html
Haha "and then I have to block you". Well, didn't Jason from Fireball Tools establish quite thoroughly that dragging a file not only doesn't damage it, but also ever so slightly removes more material?
The material removal on the backstroke kinda surprised me. But Jason's video definitely was a fun video
Pity he didn't try the only sort of workpieces where it matters: ones which are nearly as hard as the file.
Maybe he used mild steel coupons because it was easier. Like the drunk who searched for his wallet under the streetlight, although that's not where he lost it.
Hahaha for some reason, in the mind of some people if you have the wrong filing technique they get really worked up on you.. And then I have to block you. LOL
yes ! gtwtr content !
File snobs should be blocked. Fireball tool has shown the wear to be relatively insignifigant. Your rightous skills nullify draging the file.
because we all have a length of 10 mm carbide kicking around like that. :D awesome video tho
I'm not going to comment about your filing! You know more than me, you know you are wrecking files in that case and I don't want to be blocked!
I only just subscribed a few videos ago!
Thanks for the trigger, I'll have to make me one of those as well. I think Robin showed a different approach, boring what was left off the original tool and necking down the carbide shank, or something like this. I think I might try that one, since I have zero faith in my soldering skills....
"And then I have to block you" lol such a completely reasonable gentleman this smiling assassin. Drag on my good fellow.
Stefan comonnn! You were supposed to show us a diamond and/or CBN rotary broach to drill a square hole into the carbide for mounting
Filing carbide, if that’s a thing at all, will always kill your file. Right? As a scientist, the anti-dragging file community, are like flat earthers, to me, just ignorant of reality. If you are removing material on the backstroke, you are filing. Direction doesn’t matter, obviously, as files file both ways.
Herr Hans,
Why do you insult Flat Earthers ?
We are not ignorant, we file backwards too !
A diamond file would work on carbide (and wouldn't care which direction it was used). 🤔
@@jimurrata6785 True!
@@mugsymegaton3769 😂
Toll, Stefan, habe wieder viel gelernt... 👍
Mach Dir nicht so viel Gedanken über das potenzielle Besserwissertum mancher Leute. Für unsereins ist es immer etwas schwer, das zu "notchen", aber wir dürfen uns nicht davon runterziehen lassen. 😎🤞
"And then I have to block you" (this made my day). Another good video. Thanks Stefan!
You file beautifully..."don't block me bro"
How the heck do they mould in spiral channels in that carbide blank, I'd like to know!
I would guess it would be EDM machined after the fact? I would love to see how it’s done though.
I would try to use hard wire brush to remove mess from brazing, angle grinder brush would do fine
The best way to prevent a file to wear down is to put it in oil and never use it :-)
We media blast the excess braze in the cutter shop at work and it works beautifully.
Thank you Stefan, very informative. You really are a master engineer!!
If you are using a 750 ml bottle the wire hoop needs to be metric.
Hi Stenfan , I'm new to this as I am hobbyist machinist, learning alot from your videos , plz keep them coming,
🤣 Do they get upset at a die filer for dragging?🤣
Thank you for making your videos.
Keyboardwarriors have never seen a die filer in real life :D
at 9 am (local time in Germany) this was posted 6 hours ago. You are obviously going through sleepless nights to get us some nice content to watch while having our morning coffee ;-)
Whats sleep? 😬
the left v-block shakes a little when you touch it with the rose-bud-torch ( 8:29 ) , so I guess alignment didn't need to be 100% perfect, yes?
I think it got scared by the flame ;)
(Might be slight movement when the flux melted, yeah.)
Always interesting and instructive..
Thank you Master.
did you ever try sophisticated multifix tool holders for boring bars if they were available for your toolpost size? much better grip than the standard ones and they actually decrease deflection and chatter because they don't work on friction only.
Yes, I have two of the 30mm boring bar holders - I use them on my larger 20mm boring bars with a split bushing - They are indeed very nice and rigid, but also annoyingly expensive.
The proper way to file is at 4X speed. Simple.
Another interesting video. Thanks. I was just wondering, why you couldn’t use a small stone instead of the file?
Stones tend to load up with softer metals like the silver solder - but in general, yes, would work too :-)
Ok. I think you must have been referring to ruining the file from getting it filled up with silver. I thought you were afraid of dulling it on the hardened steel. That’s why I brought up using a stone.
@@greglaroche1753 he _was_ afraid of dulling it on the carbide, and the hardened steel, to a lesser extent). He wasn't concerned with clogging the file up with silver solder.
@@littlejackalo5326
That’s what I was thinking at first and wondered why he didn’t use a stone.
Fireball Tools has a video where he tested different filing techniques to the extreme and you would be surprised by the results. You make precision work look simple.
I see the gloves are there, but the lack of white lab coat really damages my trust in that stifness comparison test... ;))
*orders white lab coat*
Freut mich das du mal wieder ne starke nummer rausgehauen hast!
Mit den maßen stimmt ja auch noch alles 👍
Danke!
We need a video of your new Bema grinder ASAP. Impatience is killing me.
Working on it 🙂
Try lifting your Scotchbrite on the return - nope, can't even type that with a straight face. I had to try, though.
I especially order the non-directional scitchbrite ☝️
Good vidio. What's your thoughts on precision ground bench stones.
Well, I am biased, since I make and sell them: Best thing since sliced bread :D
On a more serious note: I like them - I have several sets here in my shop that I use a lot.
Filing machines do not lift the file from the material on the back stroke.
Most of the better class power hacksaws do, though.
Nice detailed work.Thank you.
My 5 axis CNC router at work has googly eyes on the feed override knob. glad I am not alone
Wondering why you chose to maintain a 10mm diameter and change to carbide, instead of buying/building a thicker boring bar?
10mm carbide will have 1/3 the deflection of 10mm steel - but so will ~12.7mm steel. (assuming my calculations are correct)
Big bar can't bore small hole.
@@koharaisevo3666
Sure, but there's obviously plenty of clearance between the boring bar and cutting insert in this case.
@@c6q3a24 The swarf has to get out, and it was already cramped. More importantly, the clearance at the side of the bore is not the limitation, it's the clearance at the bottom which is always problematic, and you can be sure that was already minimal, because that's "Boring 101" and this is not Stefan's first gig.
Finally some manual work again, thank you.
Not only did i take the accuracy with a grain of salt, i added pepper as well. Love this channel.
Pleeeese, please - no more comments about Fireball Tools video!!!
Hey have you seen Fireball tools Vide.... 🤣😂
watch fireballtools video on filing and he tested the drag technique and the file lasted as long or even longer and moved more metal WHILE DRAGGING! so as far as im concerned dragging is the right technique lol
Filing techniques, the file warriors just can't help themselves. Do it the way, that suits y'self.
Stiffness is everything. And, not only in the workshop.
Thank you for another really informative video. I can only dream of achieving the degree of accuracy that you reach.
And the stiffness diminishes with age!!, See Fireball Tools and his experiments with filing, works on the back stroke just as well.
@@Dave.Wilson that's what she said toooo 😳😂
Nice project and as usual a great explanation and easily understood demonstration. Thanks for sharing
If you want to modify a boring bar, take off your clothes.
My table dance times are over, sorry.
Funny. I just Buy 10mm and 12mm carbide boring bars from China .aprox 30euro /PCs. And I have 20 solid carbide bar, and I want to sawder a 20mm ccmt bar. So geniuses think the same 🤣🤣
Nice tool hack! -- love your statment: "it wasn't too much work"...ha!..if you have a surface grinder and a cutter grinder :-) also love the practical science experiment. I try to teach my daughter that kind of practial thinking by measuring things and experimenting as much as possible.
Yeah, I used these machines, because they where the easiest way for me to accomplish the task :)
It should be easy transferable to many other classes of shop equipments - The head could also be milled or filed (dont drag the file :D ) at 45° and the carbide blank can be 45° Cut on a benchgrinder with a green silicon carbide wheel and careful checking with a protractor.
Out of curiosity, how much more difficult would it have been to just mill the new material end to fit the cutter?
Edit: Now I'm closer to the end and I can see how intricate the cutout for the cutter actually is. I guess that would be rather more difficult than I 1st thought it would be.
Your filing technique is absolutely....Oh...
🤣
The argument against dragging a file backwards is that you wouldn't do it when using a power file!
this was a good, simple demonstration of the difference in the modulus of elasticity for Tungsten/Carbide vs. Steels. Thanks Stephen
Great video 👍 Stefan enjoyed the tool modification and I also enjoyed the AVE type of in-depth science experiment keep up with the great content and I am not going to mention your filing technique 😅
If only AvE did videos like that... Nowadays he's just sitting in front of a stove rambling about this that and the other.
Quit my subscription to him after many years recently.
@@herrgerd1684 yes less rambling
This test proves to me that back-raking a file is NOT bad practice. Watch this video - people who complain about dragging the file backwards across the material are full of it: th-cam.com/video/xbykic--SKA/w-d-xo.html
The people at DIN are going crazy with the new unit of mass: the Gotteswinter Bottle!
I sent already a sample to the Bureau International des Poids et Mesures in France, to have it listed and referenced as an SI unit.
Hmm, what about bananas...?
I feel a rabbit hole , K10 cemented tungsten carbide, KLOT, YG8, UK manufactured carbide. Thats just ebay. What was used in the video ?. Fascinating work, excellent demonstration.
Nice video, Stefan. Thank you for taking the time to make it. With regard to dragging a file: I was trained not to do so during my apprenticeship. However, after seeing Fireball Tool's video on the subject (go see it. He has a great channel, too), I have changed my mind. He PROVED that dragging a file whilst filing steel is NOT detrimental to the file. In fact, it actually was beneficial to the process. Perhaps there are situations where this is not true, but I have yet to experience one. As a millwright and a machinist I no longer worry about dragging my files, though it is so ingrained in me not to that I almost always don't just by reflex. I hope this is useful information. Please keep up the good work! Thanks again.
Thank you very much this was a great learning video very interesting.
great content as always. keep up the good work.
Very nice job...enjoyed this. Thank you!
I wonder how much the extra stick out of the stainless and 4140 from the vise effected your results. Probably not much. Excellent project. You are among the most talented machinists out there. Superb work.
So you inspired me to get a deckel clone U2 single lip cutter which is so great for it's price and now you go and get some floorstanding thing haha.
Love your stuff and I do a little head dance to your intro music everytime.
Whoever the people are complaining about your file use .... Just tell them to go file themselves .. they will get the message...right before you block them anyway ... Thanks for sharing .. Stay Safe...
Beautiful work!
@StefanGotteswinter, I really appreciate your test regarding rigidity of the different materials.
The carbide boring bars have another factor to reduce chatter besides being stiffer. They are heavier, and more mass means lower natural frequency and less tendency to harmonic vibrations. I really hope that I got that right as English isn´t my native tounge. 🙂
Btw, this video was uploaded a year ago, but carbide boring bars are nowadays being sold on Ebay and they are not that expensive. But of course, you don´t get to chose what carbide tip to use and you don´t get to make anoter nice video if you buy them on Ebay. 🙂
curious about you saying the module of elasticity (?) is no different in mild vs. hardened steel. that would imply a boring bar made of mild steel wouldn't flex any more than one of hardened steel? That just doesn't sound right to me, what am I missing.
re:filing
file how you file, but why'd that -need- filing? Surprised you didn't bust out a diamond file, they work pretty well on...well anything, they're diamond.
This carbide shank boring bar can be bought for 20 euros or less, less than 30 shipped from china, and it should have a tool steel tip. Type C10K-SDUCR. I would like to make them myself too but just the carbide blanks costs more for me.
Hahaha, yes, all these amateur machinists that only hold a file in the weekends (or not even, but 'read a book/magazine' or 'saw a video') keep commenting on video's by proffesionals on "how their filing technique is bad. It's hilarious.
Damn “technique nazis”, you just can’t resist correcting people. I’ll give you something to correct!
I’m going to make a video about proper filing technique and spend several hours filing carbide while only applying pressure on the back stroke. I may even demonstrate the little know techniques of sharpening a diamond wheel with a file and how to clean a file with a bench grinder.
Great video! Thank you Stefan!
Nice work Stefan, did you get " This Old Tony's " approval on this testing method? LOL!