Why Do Model Trains Run Better In 2022? | A Journey Through Time
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
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0:00 Intro
0:50 Earliest Mechanisms
6:09 Tri-ang 1950
9:31 Tri-ang Developments
10:45 1980s Hornby
13:07 Tender Drive
15:58 Mainline Arrives
19:05 Early Bachmann
21:28 Bachmann Evolution
22:55 Hornby 2000s Upgrades
25:36 Bachmann 2000s Upgrades
28:05 Modern Diesel Designs
29:45 Modern Bachmann Steam
32:14 Conclusion - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I just realized that the first locomotive has fully functional walschaerts valve gear, if you look close enough you can see the slide valve stem actually in good timing when going forward
It's quite awesome for the time isn't it? Great spot! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains especially when most manufacturers nowadays don’t do those kind of details
Yes! The failure to reproduce that crucial characteristic of Walschaert's motion very seriously detracts from the realism of every modern OO gauge locomotive with which I am familiar. When a manufacturer clearly had the skill and miniature engineering resources to reproduce it so far way back when, I find it quite incomprehensible, actually unforgivable that not one of them (at least to my knowledge) is either capable or willing to provide that level of realistic detail today.
Otherwise, this was a very interesting presentation by Sam, as professionally articulate as usual! But I'm still not entirely satisfied with the slow speed performance of ANY model steam loco. There is definitely still room for improvement in the synergy of motor/flywheel(s)/gears.
@@John-Tropi I agree - Consistent and steady low speed (and crawl) is still an issue, and the high speeds are totally out of scale. I scratch-built a diesel-style loco and used a Chinese general-purpose motor with a built-in reduction gearbox, driving the wheels with a Meccano chain drive. The crawl speed was incredible.
@@SamsTrains Run better but not as durable as stock from previous decades
The can motor, flywheel, and gear tower mechanism in D5317 originated in the states. A company by the name of Athearn produced locomotive kits that came in blue boxes that used the first iterations of the mechanism. At first it was without flywheels, then they were added in the 70s Athearn locomotive releases.
Thanks a lot for sharing - that's really interesting :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I started with the early Hornby diesels: one power bogie, and only it had current pick-ups, then Lima: Ringfield motor on one bogie only, but did have pick-up on both bogies. Which it needed as the fitted traction tyres lost some pick-ups. Neither ran very well. Now, I have Athearn-type mechanisms: all wheel drive and all wheel pick-up. By far the best solution for good running, and able to cope with momentary current loss on dirty rails, and through insulated point frogs.
In the 1970s I changed to N Gauge. I was quite upset with Rheumatoid running of my Lima AL6 (Class 86). It had a ringfield motor bogie one end with traction tyres and a pick only bogie at the other it wobbled when running and stuttered and stops at slow speed and only seemed to run properly at high speeds.
I went to an exhibition in Chester in 1970 and saw a layout using Minitrix locos. They had a central motor, 2 x universal joints, 2 x worms and two bogies with gear towers. These had 8 wheel drive and 8 wheel pickup, with excellent slow running and would pull 12 and 14 coach trains....I bought a class 27 for £7.30p. Although not used much now ( I have gone back to 00 now) it still runs, as all my Minitrix locos, as it di dY one. These are all 3 pole motors. Thanks to Bachmann leading the field, nearly all 00 diesel locos are like this now. N gauge seemed to lead the field long before 00. This was progress that made a great difference to running!
John Harrison. Wallasey, Wirral.
Train at 22:45 truck looks to be off the track, still so smooth! Great video.
I noticed it too.
I was auditor at palitoy in mainline days. Always used to buy one of each loco as ‘best’ but had a constant invite to delve in their scrap bin. For every three locos out of the bin I would recon on one good loco, one ‘useable’ loco and some scrap/spares.
This motor design was used for several years. A lot were horseshow magnets, so did end up similar to the one you showcased. For the time, they were really great and exciting. The old half wave rectified controllers and battery controllers of the day were not quite as smooth as the newer controllers, but they do work better on full analogue controllers rather than modern electronic based controllers. I find the way they speed up slowly adds a bit of realism as real life locos don't go from 0 to full speed instantly. It takes time to get up to speed.
The very early plastics were acetate based and they warp and split so badly as they get old. Later plastics were a bit more stable.
Dublo and Wrenn locos will give you a really good crawl with an H&M Clipper or Duette using the high resistance and /or half wave settings.
Ahh fantastic - I'll have to try this!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains When I moved to California, 40 years ago, I brought my Hammant & Morgan controllers with me. What I found was that just upping the voltage with voltage converters didn't allow them to put out full power, so I replaced them with more recent American controllers. I found they worked perfectly with the old Hornby Dublo and Triang locos.
I think the "dead rail" concept is fascinating. The locomotive is run by battery which could be charged by the track power & is remotely run.
A lot of trains from the 40’s were pretty clunky and more mechanical. Especially in the O gauge range. When I got a 1948 Lionel Columbia Scout for my grandfather, it was quite bulky, had exposed sprockets by the wheels, and was just an overall very bulky locomotive. But a cool one too!
I no longer model, but back in the day (1980-2000) I became obsessed with slow running. It's the Achilles heel of smaller gauges and I drew up all sorts of designs using 5 pole motors with massive flywheels and huge reduction gearing. None of which came to fruition of course but all my locos were modified with pickups on all wheels etc. in a vain attempt to recreate the huge mass of the prototype. Very interesting walk through the history of OO loco design.
my gaiety tank with the factory 5 pole and 47:1 gearing actually ran worse at slow speed than the quality dublo 3 pole and 9:1 gearing.
I've thrown in that crucial word "quality" you'll note.
tbh, my example may have been really worn out, that mass of gears was very noisy, but it didn't really give those outstanding results that the mechanism would appear to promise.
and if it was worn out, would the same vintage dublo mechanisms be any better?
@@muir8009 Interesting!
Hello Sam, I enjoyed your take on this and especially at the start of the video your note about compatible controllers etc. I am very much a vintage model railway enthusiast and am running all the early models you showed very successfully at scale speeds on my Tri-ang Super 4 based layout. These excellent models still have much to offer if you treat them to careful maintenance and of course there are period upgrades too, such as the superb five pole X03 / X04 Airfix motor conversion. Take care, all the best to you
Later on I worked for Beatties of London ltd who stocked Hornby, Wrenn, Palitoy, Airfix and Lima alongside Fleischmann, Trix, Märklin Roco and Rivarossi. That experience opened my eyes to the vastly superior quality of the European manufacturers and models. Frankly the British outline stuff was rubbish, especially Hornby.
The European models were all superior runners, better made and detailed, and included features such as working lights that most British models were devoid of such as lights.
Mainline were the precursor to Bachmann. Airfix fell by the wayside eventually but had a good stab at it.
An interesting journey through the past. My time selling model railways was around 1974 to 1976.
It would be great to see you feature some vintage European models in a show.
VERY true, but Aunty Horny has come on in leaps and bounds, so this might no longer be the case.
i like the heavy metal one, the lag in acceleration makes it look more to scale as it moves closer to the full sized .
I have a 1940s Hornby-Dublo Duchess of Atholl. The internals on that are pretty much identical to the Wrenn loco you demonstrated - even the magnet design and other details. Great model and still working after conversion to two rail pickup.
Very interesting subject. The most interesting thing is that more than half a century old technical designs can still run beautifully on today's layouts with today's hardware! That's what i would call sustainability. We can't say so for way too many other things...
By the way I think the future of model railroading and also other modelling hobbies is 3D printing and DIY approach to making and fixing stuff. It can be more fun, more diversity in models offered, and also, more sustainable.
Seeing the evolution and changes to engine solutions over the years is quite fascinating.
Thanks for sharing. 😉👌🏻
The reason we have OO/HO (1:76 scale bodies running on 1:87 scale chassis) is because the ‘best’ available motors were German but German locomotives were larger, so to accommodate the German mechanism in a British outline we adopted a slightly larger scale for the body.
Back in the 1960’s it was noticeable how much better the old 3-rail trains ran (well compared to my own Triang locos anyway) with fewer stoppages on spots of dirty track (these days with DCC we could add a ‘keep-alive’ supercapacitor to cope with dirty track). From memory the people at Pendon really drove the development of the coreless can motor. By the 1980s I was using N Gauge (having been given a Farish ‘train set’ in the late 1970s), not great, fitting additional pickups and adding weight made a big difference. The chap who popularised N gauge had to wind his own motors but they ran beautifully on his ‘in a violin case’ end-to-end model railway. I think the chap who built the H0 gauge Madder Valley (a personal favourite on display at Pendon) also wound motors for his own builds.
For the future I would like to see an inexpensive loco with DCC and the super-capacitor keep-alive added to provide decent running and the wider use of the Microtrains couplers to allow shunting (something I found a little frustrating with the old Triang ramp-between-the-tracks uncouplers). Once the customer has been hooked they would then likely invest in the more expensive but more detailed locomotives, although with a good running basic loco you could still have a lot of fun (see for example your own 3D printed engines).
Kids like ‘operating features’, opening doors on wagons and vans, container cranes that actually lift containers on and off wagons and conveyors and silos to load coal and aggrigates. One thing I experimented with years ago was to use the small programmable sound discs made for ‘singing’ Christmas cards to add the sound of carriage doors slamming (although that sound is probably before your time), you need at least two, one for lots of doors on an express or commuter run and another with just a few for the quieter periods, they will fit comfortably under the platforms and can be controlled by a simple battery and push button set up. That sort of thing is harder to find these days and finding a user-programmable one is very difficult.
Interesting video . The thing with model locomotives is I don't think they suffer from Planned obsolescence. So when it comes to modern locos it's all about development and what's available at the time. Simply it's just that when it comes to model railways products they have the opportunity to develop properly without being held back by Planned obsolescence.
I have thoroughly enjoyed your presentation. I have learnt a lot and I think your choice of models was excellent ! The close ups of the detail work is super. I clicked on your vid not knowing it is UK. But your information is pretty close to what is happening here in the US. Thank you for explaining the difference between 5-pole and coreless. Ever since Kato came out with coreless a few years ago I expected it to be "the revolution". Kato's interpretation is to put the motor right on top of the power wheels. I haven't seen any demos of their slow speed performance. Seems like that would be a tremendous freeing up of space for circuitry and speakers. Much success to you and I am happily subscribed.
I've got models from my own country produced in the 80ies and onward and it's fun(ny) to see the development of various manufacturers when opening them up and seeing how it was first all analogue focussed with track pickup at various points, to 8-pin DCC ready but still using just 2 mini light bulbs with light guides to both ends, to LED use and 21/22 pin connectors.
13:10 Hornby-Dublo developed the ringfield motor back in the 1960's. I have a couple from 1962, and they do run very well, but the controllers were more powerful for all the weight and current needed to pull long trains back then.
I appreciate towards the end when you acknowledge the limited nature of this video. The title is perhaps better than many other TH-cam videos that have the vaguest of titles, often not really related to the video. So, 'A journey through time' may have people watching from an idea that it was more about a range of changes to model railways, including different gauges, the 'curious' three-railed models [that I could not relate to because of the lack of realism] to a fuller understanding of railway adhesion from real rail locomotion.
As a young child, my older brothers' 50's [UK] version of Triang-Hornby used 'Super Four'? rail track. My more realistic 60's 'System Six'? track, meant that my brother's shunter engine wheels' flanges 'knocked' on my tracks sleepers. Maybe DCC programs for a smoother acceleration from the start - I've never seen a real engine instantly accelerate to high speed. [I'm amazed though at how our real electric suburban rail in Brisbane, Australia can accelerate and decelerate at station platforms.]
My Australian version of an electric engine, in plastic, had a hollow area under the flooring for a heavy metal weight. Understanding better about real railway engineering and adhesion, even 'light rail' is still heavy, and necessary to keep rail vehicles in contact with the track. Today, with interests in real railway passenger and freight transport, I'd be interested in making my own N and/or Z scale track in closer to reality dimensions of track height and width - even though I'd need some good magnifying gear for my visual impairments.
Some 300 properties are to be 'resumed' - including my neighbours' houses for a new straight four-track rail corridor in Logan City, Queensland - focused on 'faster rail' between the Gold Coast and Brisbane for Australia's 2032 Olympic Games. It ignores the historical fact that we were proposed [standard gauge] interstate rail on this corridor about 120 years ago. Some parts of Australia can be called 'fifth world' today.
I was disappointed as a child of engines stalling, 'humming' and the 'jerky' movements. As model rail wagons and engines were often 'foreshortened', with curves much sharper than reality, I'd say that having models run at slower speeds and smoothly is necessary. I had already worked out for realism to change from the OO/HO gauges to N Scale was necessary for realism in a large room setting - or even Z scale. Unfortunately, I've gained long-sightedness and other visual impairment in later years - meaning I'd have to erect some small cameras around a diorama to see detail on a large screen today.
Currently, some parts of Australia are worse than UK's Dr. Beeching's Axing, causing some extreme neglect to people with disabilities in rural areas not having access to everything from appropriated medical care in large cities, going to the beach, nor seeing family and friends etc. Some of us die on terrible rural roads and truck-filled highways now.
Loved the X03 in my Jinty. Never failed over 20 years. Bomb proof.
Happy someone does this
Nice to see some of those older locos
Thanks Sam
31:13 i didn't think i would see the day where sam praises coreless motors
Good on ya Sam gr8 informative video there m8 thankyou.
Cheers from John in Australia
Very informative. Thank you.
Very interesting! Great video Sam!
Interesting video. I have a sizeable Dublo collection and am aways impressed how these still run 60+ years after they were made. The build quality is absoltuely bombproof and I imagine they will still be going strong in 2060. I wonder how today's offerings will fare in 20 years' time, nevermind 60 or even 100. As for features in the future, personally I would almost prefer fewer features and lower prices. The simplified approach that Hornby took with its 2-Bil and 2-Hal models seemed like a good one - they are decent looking models and pricing was very attractive.
I know they don't!
I helped rebuild the 'Mostyn Junction' layout at Wirral Transport Museum, Birkenhead. We bought numerous models old and new to run the layout.A lot of the new Hornby an Bachmann locos are on their 2nd and 3rd motors in the 15 years or so that the layout has been running with its own stock one Castle class loco had to have a new armature after being knocked off the track and left for an hour!
The other Dublo loco that stopped, one day of running, was stripped down and was found that one of the brushes had worn away down to the spring! These were probably the original brushes from the 1960s!!!
Long live Dublo!!!
John Harrison, Wallasey, Merseyside
So back in the 70 I don’t recall going slow . It was full tilt boogie . And if it went around a corner with the left or right wheels off the ground . You was doing it right
My Father always said that if one drove through a corner in a race car with all four wheels on the road, one isn't going fast enough and the suspension needs more engineering time, and driver needs more track time. If the vehicle was 'cocking it's leg' through a corner, then it is getting closer to being driven on the edge.
Interesting, the development from my early days (70's) through till now does show improvement which is great.
Loved That!
Will you be doing any more reviews of older locos such as those from Lima, Triang, Wrenn etc?
I think a review like that will be good
Enjoyed the video a great deal. As for core-less motors we were using them back in the very early 1980s with portescap RG4
Have you ever considered reviewing or purchasting a brass locomotive for your personal collection Sam? Many brass models are very highly detailed even by today’s standards and were produced in the 60s-80s
I never have, but I'd certainly like to one day - a very interesting breed of loco!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Great Video Sam. Thanx for the Education.
As I was born In 1956 my first Loco was a Triang Black Princess and The O8 Shunter quickly after..!
I lost most of my Train Set in the Move to Oz. In 1980. Damn it..!
But Started again at the Birth of my Son..!
Great Video. Cheers All.
Kim in Oz. 😎
Brilliant video 😊
The first Black 5's also had the first ringfield motors, I have one. Their valve gear also was borrowed from the "Britannia". To your end question, I have two " duchess" class that are 1977 & 1982 versions and had working lamps on the front, fairly weak, but they worked. Hornby could do that so much better now, it would atleast be nice if they revisited the concepts. Being from "Across the Pond" lights are standard on Locomotives. I'm not saying that ours are superior, I wouldn't be collecting and running UK prototype if I didn't like the "English" steam. And I'm the only one who works at my local hobbyists that can intelligently discuss UK prototype, thanks to shows like yours.
Very interesting video. Nice !
Interesting presentation. I would like to see this same sort of video done for USA locomotives, and for other European locos such as the Italian, the German, and the Austrian locos such as Roco. I'm particular interested in the tender drive developments in the Roco line
since about 1989 Roco also added too the tender drive a driveshaft from tender to loco (similar to Graham Farish oo) in some models, giving quiet loco + tender drive with good pulling power, don't know if they were the first to do it
Very interesting article! My main love is Hornby Dublo 3-rail - apart from the upright motor in the Duchess's and others they also made the first 'ringfield' magnet motors, in a couple of forms, with modifications. Very fine performers too! I also convert 'moderns' to 3-rail (a bit bonkers maybe but I started with a 3-rail set-up!!) and agree totally regarding the Mainline motors - they really aren't up to much are they! The Bachmann split-chassis locos run well but getting to the motor to wire in a 3-rail pick-up is a right pain! I have 3-railed a Bachmann Peak and that runs and pulls really well! Again I agree totally about the quality of the early 2000 Hornby locos, I have 3-railed a un-rebuilt west country and a princess and they are really superb runners. The Lima range is worth a mention too - their Deltic and class 40 are fine performers too, as is the small prairie, similar ringfield motors to Hornby.
I agree with the Lima small Prairie. I have one it's like a tank will pull anything you put behind it and could be thrown from a 10 storey window and finish in one piece
Yes, and the original ringfield motors were put into the locomotives of the Caste, 8F and Merchant Navy, not in the tenders. Unfortunately, they protruded into the cab.
remember dublo didn't use the first ringfield motors: just that the common and well-known dublo ringfield was produced before the common and well-known post dublo variety
Really enjoyed this Sam. Well presented. Only just came up on my suggestions
Awesome video Sam's trains
Your vids are just amazing bro
That's very kind of you! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A very interesting video i would like to see more like this, well done Sam.
Thanks so much - I'll see what I can do! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That Royal Scot is actually the version Palitoy produced initially for their Airfix GMR range. It was markedley different from the one produced for the Mainline range - different body mouldings, different chassis and motion gear, different finish, too. The Airfix ones initially went to Dapol, with a couple of Dapol originals and most of the erstewhile Airfix GMR range eventually going to Hornby - the Scot in the vid being discontinued due to it's rather grouchy chassis. The (different) Mainline branded one and it cousins the Jubilee, the re-built Patriot and the 'parallel' Scot did indeed become the backbone of the initial Bachmann Branchline catalogue - though as I've mentioned above, these quite different from the Scot in video, it being the Airfix GMR version. Great vid though, Sam.
13:18 I've just restored one of the very early one of these with the original ringfield!
We have sure progressed...sadly the prices have elevated to high pricing some are out of the budget of the average modeller
A great summary of 00 model developments over the ages. I had an early Dublo N2 with a horseshoe magnet, which had much less power than the standard 1960s N2. I don't think we even tried to make our locos crawl back then; we were grateful to have any speed control! - just try getting a clock-work loco to crawl...
Graham Farish produced some 00-gauge locos and stock in the 1950s, using early plastic: good detail for the time, but if you were not careful, the wheel flanges would break off. Their King class loco had a weird motor, with a rotating armature consisting of the permanent magnet, surrounded by electromagnetic coils energised by an arrangement rather like the 'points' in a 1950s car distributor! That was in the tender (with plunger pick-ups); a flexible drive shaft to the loco enabled the driving wheels to do the work. Again - crawl it did not: you had to turn the controller full on to get it to start moving!
Those Graham Farish motors were renown for burning out, so most people replaced them with Triang X04 motors.
Hi Sam, Nice review, very interesting , All the best Brian 😃
This was really fascinating! I’d definitely like to see more videos along this vein.
Sam - great video. At the end you asked what more would we like to see on model locos. The answer is LESS not More. From my perspective, as a modeller and operator, rather than collector, I would like to see dimensionally accurate but less detailed locos at a cheaper price. More like the Hornby Railroad. In that way we can customise and detail ourselves which is a big part of the hobby. I would also like to see modern mechanisms being made available by the likes of Hornby and Bachmann so we can upgrade older models at a reasonable cost and without having to resort to making our own mechanisms.
A model railway company in America supply three different qualities of loco at 3 different pricing points: Museum Quality, Rivet Counter Quality and Operator Quality. It seems to me that is something the manufacturers of British trains should consider.
It would be interesting to see what motor modifications could be made to make them run even better, different types of motors, maybe geared down BLDC motors even.
Sam. I have had Hornby Dublo from 3-Rail days. Some of the first loco'swere a bit notchy, but some later models had the Meccano/Dublo (loco driven)Ring Field motor. This was very large, long motor, but much smoother than the originals. One of the best of these was the the re-built West Country loco. This was produced as Dorchester and Barnstable. One was 2-Rail, the other 3-Rail.
I have a 2-rail one and is 3-pole, but is so well geared that it will double head with a modern Hornby 'Battle of Britain' and even crawl at similar speeds. This is a much heavier model and will pull more than its modern equivilent.
In regard to the early Tri-ang locos, try them with the controllers of the time! In comparison to the Dublo, there really is none!!! They were cheaper. That is the only good thing you can say about them, also they made more popular loco types than Hornby Dublo (in my opinion, of course). Tri-ang had oversize flanges and cast mazak wheels that were not plated so didn't pick up very well without constant cleaning. These will not even run on code 100 track as the flanges bounce over the track chairs! The valve gear on Dublo locos was simplified and over size, but Tri-ang's, what there was of it, was also and 'very' simplified.
Also with Tr-ang the buffer height was about 1/8"/ c.3.5mm too high on allthir models. Dublo's models were scale height!
If you put a Dublo loco next to drawings, they were, in general, scale size. 2 Dublo locos were not; one was their N2, which was similar, but not an actual copy and their Deltc loco. So I have been told, this was built from 'memory' after the designers had been shown the real loco being built. They got it very wrong and the model was very much too short!
It did have a very powerful ringfield motor bogie and die cast body, it also came out, I believe, before the real loco!
Unfortunately, their coaches were flush glazed, but short on length too with lithographed printed details.
Tri-ang loco's were nearly all too high above rail level and a lot were very short. The Princess was about an inch too short compared to the modern models. Their 1960s mk1 coaches were scale length, but not flush glazed until the late 1980s and still about 3.5mm too high above the rails.
Tri-ang motors used 2-start worms on their motors which made them start at about 40mph and had a top speed of around 130mph!!!
To conclude, there really wasn't any comparison between Dublo and Tri-ang. Dublo was far supreme in detail, weight, pulling power and scale.
If anybody comments about Dublo to me, I tell them about the pulling power of the Dublo 8F 2-8-0. I once ran a thirty five coach train of mark1s on the 'Mostyn Junction' layout at Wirral Transport Museum, Birkenhead. The 8F was slipping a little on curves, but pulled the train, consisting of Triang-Hornby, Mainline, and Hornby mk1 coaches for about an hour!
When first introduced, this model pulled a 3 year old child on a special display track at that years Model Engineers Exhibition, showing the power of the ringfield motor in the loco!
I hope this rant will be educational to you and hope you try out and compare a Hornby Dublo Barstable loco to a modern Hornby one.....You'll be very surprised!!!
Best wishes and keep up the good work.
John Harrison. WALLASEY, WIRRAL.
Great site, love the info about my first trains from the 1960's +.
Now in Canada have you reviewed any of Rapido's UK offerings?
Stay safe
I had a Hornby Dublo kit from the late 1950's and early 60's. I had a controller that received its power from a second-hand lionel box. It had a Canadian Pacific loco and caboose. It was the version of rails with the tin-plate base and center power rail. I purchased the mail car set with my own money. On a visit to Britain in 1961, I received a second loco with the ring field motor. The only thing that I remember about that loco is that it would not run on my layout. I'm not sure what the issue was. Power supply being 60 hz? I'm not sure.
I also got a second controller that was complete with transformer built in to plug into 120 volts split phase. (Split phase took the output of 240 volt supply and used a central neutral to give 120 volts on each side of the neutral. So a electric "range", dryer or water heater would operate on 240 volts.)
In your review you did not cover the merger in the 60's of Hornby and Triang. That seems to be when Hornby started using the triang style coupler. (That seems to be the de-facto coupler for U.K. model railway use. North American trains use a different style, with an alternate style called the KD coupler being available as an after-market upgrade.)
In terms of electronics, keep alive (for DCC) should be standard on every loco.
Superb video. It was mainly the motors. I replaced my Triang Jinty with a modern 24v motor and a nylon worm and it runs like a Kato or Fleischmann loco now. I also have a 1940 HO Gilbert-American Flyer loco and again if it had a different motor it would run so better. One more thing, Hornby tender drives was a backwards step from what Triang offered. You are right too about controllers. They are amazing now compared to what was around in the past.
Ahh fantastic idea - I've been meaning to try something similar myself - you've set me on now! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains I can't wait! You can see the Jinty in this video along with some other 24v motor and nylon conversions.
th-cam.com/video/_vwsHd1FnVY/w-d-xo.html
All the Hornby early Silver Seal locos had the early six wheel drive Ringfield motor.... 9f, Black 5, Britannia and the original two tone green 47 Sampson.
With the good old Dublo and Wrenn locos the sluggishness and worse was usually down the the magnet losing its magnetism and also lazy maintenance with the oil can. There are super magnets available to replace the old ones available on ebay. My first loco was a Duchess of Montrose which would have been 63 if fatigue and not so gentle treatment. The old Rovex would have died much sooner. I bought my HD Barnstable in 1967. It is play worn with only new magnets and driving wheels being replaced in that time. Like all locos of that era 200 mph was the standard express speed as their controllability was sort of limited. Speed drop off on inclines was formidable however these locomotives were huge fun to play with and still are. Stuff realism.
Replace magnets with Super NEO types and you will see a miraculous improvement in running!
Thank you, i will follow that up with some of my other HD locos that are in need of livening up.
Couldn't afford a tomix set sooooo decided to make my own... Hasn't that been fun lol... First attempt at running it just wanted to torque of the track then the shafts vibrated out.. had to get rid of some play so I don't throw my drive wheel If it bound at all.. now I just need to get rid of the play in the carriers axles as I kept jumping the track.. now I'm trying to decide whether to coat in dielectric coating or di tape.. or pain staking wire laying on the edge of the track.. or over hang like some trains trams etc ...the fact I even have it operational in a day I was stoked for $20 work 🙄👍
The original battery powered Rovex 'Princess' with 2 coaches plus track was my first trainset with the loco current collection being from 2 sprung brass plungers that came out of the body under the front of the firebox. The one you are looking at is a later one! I have no idea what material these original train sets were made of but in time the whole lot started to 'curl' and distort. Including the battery/ controller box which contained 2 or 3 Ever-Ready 'front bike light' double batteries. Unfortunately, in time, the battery box distorted so severely that the trainset became unusable as an electric one so it became a push-a-around the oval job with the 2 short coaches and loco hobbling and derailing beacause the all wheel tyres on the set had developed grooves and the coaches assumed a U shaped form. Just like the rest of the train set! However, one day when I licked the tender body with the tip my tongue so I could stick something on it's side there was a strange burning like sensation on the tip of my tounge! Talk about toxic toys! I can assure you I have never, ever, licked a train set since!
what a cool first trainset: back when it was perfectly fine to run a 2 or 3 coach euston express hauled by a stunted princess, around a mass of track. in all honesty, I think with our current fixation on almost photographic reproduction of a particular time and geography we've lost the ability to just enjoy a model railway as a model railway. one still can of course, but one gets categorized by others who consider what they do is the "correct" way, completely overlooking that essential factor of "who cares?".
on a slightly more constructive note the early plastics were an acetate (same as film stock) which caused the warping and mis-shapeness, progressively changing over to polystyrene from the late 50's
I had an early Hornby Dublo train set. This was three rail (centre rail live) running. Some models ran better than others. My basic set was second hand, and had early die-cast metal locos. The best runner was A4 Sir Nigel Gresley in LNER garter blue. Metal die-cast body. A later addition was an LMS Duchess class - Duchess of Hamilton. Plastic moulded body and, while a reasonable runner, didn't have the pulling power of the A4. Don't remember much about the motors as I only gave them the occaisonal run. The layout covered the entire floor of the front room and my mum didn't like me getting it set up! When Hornby introduced Dublo they thought they could make everything "half 0" scale. But early eletric motors could not be sourced that small. Forcing them to build the locos and rolling stock in 1/76 scale. They had, apparently, already produced track in the HO scale (1/87) and could not aford to scrap it all and start again. So Dublo trains ran on HO scale track in their sets. Hence the instability over tight curves of models running at too high a speed.
the early hornby dublo were very well engineered and a robust lot weren't they? regarding the availability of electric motors that was all a bit of a myth, especially the fact that hornby designed their own and would've designed any to fit the working area. hornby hadn't actually made any track previously: the tinplate track was of course based on the proven marklin design. the 4mm to 1ft was of course just a leftover from bing, and it worked and allowed for the real reason of the narrower than scale gauge: axle boxes, always an issue for many years
Am I the only one who noticed that the Bachmann diesel at 22:00 had a wheel off-track? Set my OCD off something fierce, thanks Sam! :)
Great video though!
What I didn't hear in your review was whether the trains performance modeled the train of which is a model. My philosophy is I want a train that reflects what it represents, not to win a drag race.
Was the ring field motor derived from a similar German one? I seem to remember reading about it but I'm not sure.
Yes, I think they copied a Fleischmann design. It would probably mean a court case due to breach of copyright today.
I am 61 years old and have my Uncles Lionel Locomotive and tinder with smoke cir. 1940 the engine is easy as heavy as a red clay brick, cast iron , still runs.
That 70's class 9F Evening Star was my first model train! Glorious to see one still going strong. I remember it being super powerful, to the point where I could get it to wheel spin when starting under full power, and it could pull as many coaches as I could afford to put behind it at the time. Didn't like crawling at all though. Great train for the day.
I remember seeing them at exhibitions with wobbly tenders, caused by traction tyres, and sticking valve gear and wheels static and still being pushed, sliding, along the track....Horrible!!!
I had a Black 5 (tender drive) tha was awful. I fitted an X04 motor to the loco and replaced the traction tyre tender wheels with solid metal ones and wired the two motors together. The tender wheels did slip a bit as they rotated faster than the X04 in the loco but pulled 3 times as much stock, without the tender wobble and did not stop over any dead frog points!
FYI it seemed me they used to have these "pulse power packs" that allowed the old school locomotives to run more prototypically at low speeds.
Back then it was half wave rectification with metal plate rectifiers and variable resistors to create voltage drop. No semiconductors to give thyristor control let alone feedback circuits. Many DC controllers still use 1930's output waveforms though!
H&M High resistance and full wave settings work much better on Dublo and Wrenn locos
Sam a very interesting video. I hope you do more of these types of videos . The various types of motors and mechanisms is amazing and I think you are doing this type of video a lot of justice . I do hope you continue.
In the 1970s I designed and built thyristor contollers with simulated intertia and braking. Making it necessary to DRIVE the train. Otherwise you were going to overshoot. I ended up having to add a panic button to avoid damage in the hands of some incompetent "drivers". So it was possible to bring an engine up to a loaded train at a simulated 5mph and it wouldn't stall. In fact even with "magnadhesion" it could slip the wheels at this same speed.
Excellent video Thank you for it. One note: the motor type you show in 11:21 (or in 19:35) is not a CAN motor but according to your own video it is a "square bare motor" (Block motor in German), very popular in 1964. A CAN motor (like in 23:40) is usually a cylinder shape with a metal coating. This does not remove any of the qualities of your video. I wish an equivalent was made for Märklin locos (a very rich subject).
Strangely you mention Hornby golden era (for motors & transmission) being in 2000, for Märklin this golden era was in 2004 with SDS (Soft Drive Sinus) motor, tiny, ball-bearing-mounted, helicoiday winding, no-collector (rotating field), total silence. Alas this was phased out after Märklin filed for bankruptcy protection in 2009
The one thing that I will add in here which of course it was reflected in the prices of the items at the time
But the hornby dublo duchess models were very good in model terms. Dimensions were good with modeled valve gear and multiple small details. When they run they look like a miniature version of the real thing
The early tri ang models were more of a toy with very little for details and valve gear, plus it physically looks like dimensions are off, they don’t have the sleek look that real locomotives or even hornby dublo had
The tri ang had the price going for it which is why they became the big company as time went on
But as far as the actual models go and the functionality I find that hornby dublo did a lot better job of actually capturing the real life versions
That's a good thought - would have been very interesting to compare those! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and certainly true that Tri-ang were much cheaper!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Funny you mentioned a Mainline Warship. Gave up with mine took the motor out and it runs as a dummy with my Lima/Bachmann Warships. 😄
You've completely omitted Trix Twin and Graham Farish. Graham Farish put the motors in the tenders of tender locomotives, and drove the locomotive driving wheels through a drive shaft and gears. The motors regularly burned out, so people just replaced them with the Triang X04, which was easy as they just had to be attached to the drive shaft.
Trix Twin were originally AC 3-rail, with enormous wheel flanges and crude bodies. In the 1970s they came out with a range, mainly LNER Pacifics, that were as smooth as any modern locos and much more detailed than their previous range.
You forgot to mention that the pre-war Hornby Dublo range was 3-rail. The 3-rail wheels had an enormous rolling resistance, so you would be lucky to get your loco to pull more than two coaches. The Wrenn model that you showed was based on the Hornby Dublo 2-rail version, which had plastic tender and bogie wheels, and a plastic tender body, so it was not a good representative of Hornby Dublo in the early 50s. Most locos in those days shot off like a rocket the moment you turned on the controller. The H/D Duchess locos and A4s were renown for that. I don't know why the one you had was so sluggish to start.
Several of the more modern locos that you showed were very jerky: a lot more jerky than the Hornby Dublo locos were.
Don't get confused by the term "Ring Field Motor". The first locos to be fitted with ring-field motors were the H/D Castle, 8F 2-8-0 and Merchant Navy, and the motors were IN THE LOCOMOTIVE, NOT TENDER. They went on to use them in the Diesel Shunter and the Deltic.
You completely omitted the Airfix range, which, like Triang-Hornby, put motors in the tender of tender locos.
I've got a few tender-driven 90s Hornby locos.
Interesting video, thanks a lot Sam. The Wrenn locos were generally smooth and really powerful. I would suggest that the reason your Duchess is a bit sluggish is because the motor need remagnetising which is fairly easy to do, and understandable after decades. The advent of plastic and nylon in mechanisms has been both an improvement and a backwards step.
Thanks very much John - I re-magnetise all of my vintage motors as part of my servicing, so the magnets are fine
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A Super NEO magnet replacement is recommended to rectify this!
I have the same Pannier tank from that era and when I brought it off eBay it ran as smooth as butter, it was shockingly superb, even the crawl was impeccable. However I dropped it and some parts fell off so it doesn't run as well
The older models were built to last for a very long time unlike the models of today, detail and performance wise they are more than adequate regardless of how basic they are
That's certainly true - they did last back in the day!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
That is amazing video sam
Thanks Justin! :D
Amazing journey through time sam! Love the reviews and unboxings!
What website did you show for the Hornby type 7 equivalent replacement motor. Thanks for all the videos
Dear Sir,
This was a very innovative and interesting video. I probably knew all of the shown engine generations (not personally, though), but have not seen them before in a evolutionary, cronological presentation.
Cheers from Brazil!
Thank you very much fort the kind words Eugenio, glad you enjoyed the video!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
There would have been an additional bit of drag for the older trains; they used to have the power fed from a central rail, so extra friction as well as extra mass.
In my view the development of controllers, and especially DCC have had a major impact on running characteristics. I would like to see a video showing how DCC can be used to improve slow running and to simulate inertia etc.
Interesting retrospective Sam ! And I remember the first Märklin loco's I bought in the early 70's. All Die-cast and the motors were not that bad but not with slow speeds as today. I changed to 2 rail DC and since 2014 DCC and there we look at more refined performances in the speed spectrum. Not to mention the sound. Looking back just one 'generation' and O boy what a difference ! My dream loco's: onboard power for HO and OO scale. No dirty track worries and easier to build layouts without all the wiring and polarity issues on points. With the smaller and more efficient motors it's maybe not that far off. Thanks for sharing !
Also you said that you had upgraded a lot of the tender driven Hornby engines to better quality motors A video on that would be most interesting
I did a video on those conversions - hopefully you can find it on the channel!
Try remagnetising the magnet in the old hornby LMS City.
I also have about 26 wrens,only had 2 rubbish ones,one as spares,and the other one (although I got it working to a degree)went back,absolutely stunning(albeit) basic locos but beautiful running,Inc crawl,maybe I have been lucky?
Nice evolution of model trains with different mechanisms! I like the changes that it goes through within the years past!
I do think the period 2000/01-2005/6 was something of a 'golden age' for model railways, Hornby in particular. We had reasonably priced, beautifully detailed and finished locomotives with well-designed mechanisms, quality motors and competent assembly. Things have changed, and not for the better.
Today the prices are much higher and locomotives have become too complex and fragile to withstand everyday use. Also quality control and component choice seem to be very hit and miss and evidence of corner cutting often all too obvious. As Forest Gump might have said:
'Life is like a Hornby loco. You never know what you're gonna get'!
@22:00 45114 the left hand bogie's wheels are off the track (Rolleye's)
It would be interesting to know more about your DC-controllers: Are they controlling the DC-voltage or do they have a pulse width modulation (PWM) which would improve slow motion movements highly?
Worm-based transmissions save a lot of space, they could replace several pairs of gear. But they are prone to wear so they are used rather in toys than in real world applications. Models with a worm-based drivetrain have a different braking dynamic than those without it. Worms are unable to transmit forces from the wheels to the motor, so the dynamic just depends on the rotating masses before the worm, in result the rotor in the motor and a flywheel if present. So the bigger mass of a metallic housing does not help.
The German brand Fleischmann used to have the "Rundmotor" for decades, a relatively slow turning motor which allowed them to avoid worm-based transmissions and use very simple gear transmissions easy to maintain. Märklin used to have a similar positioned motor.
Thanks for another interesting and well done video. It’s kind of funny but I’ve watched some other reviewers lately and it seems like most are trying to emulate you in their presentations and falling short in my humble opinion. Anyway as to your invitation on what I would like to see incorporated or offered on new model locomotives, For me simply smooth strong, quiet and reliable runners is the quality I appreciate most. So more of that please as well as a greater emphasis on quality control by the manufacturers. The detailing improvements I think are more easily achieved because of modern design and manufacturing techniques so that is nice to see also. Great job Sam!
That's very kind of you, many thanks for those kind words! You're absolutely right there - a focus on reliability and quality of mechanism would be very, very welcome!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I have a Flying Scotsman train set dated 2006. The loco has a 5 pole Ringfield motor and runs beautifully, as good as my new Princess Royal and Princess Corination locos - maybe I am lucky?
Probably not just lucky! The 5 pole ringfields were a big improvement in performance... but they are quite rare; implemented just before they ditched the mechanism completely... so you're certainly lucky in that sense!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A very interesting video, and I certainly would be interested to see more videos dealing with the details of various historical mechanisms. You could easily make a whole video just on the evolution of ringfield motors. I'm not sure I'm in accord with your overall conclusion. I suppose it depends what you mean by 'run better'. The locos of the latest designs certainly use less power and run quieter than older models, especially the much older models. I buy and run locos from over the whole range that you discuss here, and I wouldn't honestly say that I wholeheartedly feel that the newest designs 'run better'. In many ways I have more confidence when acquiring an older model. New models offer low power consumption and quiet running, yes; but they often have pick-up problems; they are as likely or more likely than old models to have derailing problems; and the likelihood of motor failure seems higher with new designs (and if the motors in the old designs do fail, they're generally easier to fix or replace). The old models are generally solid and reliable - at least old Hornby and Wrenn. And they generally pull well. I'm not as concerned as you seem to be about crawling with barely visible movement - that's not something I really have much, if any, occasion to want my models to do. And I don't really regard instantaneous acceleration to 50% speed as a good thing at all... a more gentle acceleration would seem more realistic to me.
Thank you so much! You're right - so much to speak about even with just ringfield motors... I'll definitely think about what else I can do! Thanks for sharing,
Cheers,
Sam :)
Hey Sam, nice video, but quick question about the caledonian 812 at the end. Where were you able to find it? I really like that type of engine (mainly due to Donald and douglas) and I have been trying to find it for a while. Any idea where to find one?
They were made by Bachmann, exclusively for Rails Of Sheffield.
Last I checked, all versions available had sold out, but I think some more were recently located in their warehouse, they may still have some in stock if that’s what you’re after.
Most enjoyable history lesson, Sam. at 22:12 one pair of wheels is off the track! But it still goes. Why is that?
Every locomotive has multiple power pick-up points, so one pair of wheels being derailed doesn't stop it from moving.
I have an old triang jinty and princess locos that my grandad had from when he was 10 they must be over 60yo they both still run. They don’t move with anything under 50% power and they both send sparks flying but strangely the jinty is the most powerful and relabeled loco i own. I have a poor quality setup and my more modern models (a3, a4 and olton hall) derail and stall often but the jinty just clatters round all day. Shows the power of the old models.
It's amazing isn't it? It's actually rare to find models like that completely dead... true quality back in those days!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I just bought around 50 used old engins from the 90s i guess in Japan.