To ironheart73: it's not a pointless scene. First, the parallel themes Cimino works with are the changes in both Kristofferson and in America, from an open, youthful exuberance to a dried-out husk... this is clearly a socio-political commentary. Second, note the end of the scene where the seniors charge the defended tree... and recall the echo of that scene in far less innocent conditions when the townspeople rally to defend themselves and encircle the mercenaries. These things are purposeful. I think it's a masterpiece.
i don't think it's a masterpiece but, it is a film that more people should seek out as it is a damn fine film. to me, the whole harvard scene is about kris kristofferson's jim averill character as this man of privilege and wealth who is been given this opportunity to actually do good with the knowledge he has been given. much of the film is about him trying to use his education and wealth to do good and help regular people as it's inspired by joseph cotten's character and his words which is something that john hurt's billy irvine seems to mock only to be lost in the role he's in. i think you're interpretation is spot on as it's a film that raises a lot of questions as having purchased the 2012 criterion dvd definitely helped me enjoy the film. i really hope more people check it out and maybe give cimino one more chance to make a film and let's hope he is given a reasonable budget to work with.
Your point is well made; yes, the Harvard dance scene is paralleled in the skate dance scene. I'll ahve to watch the movie again to see the parallel between the tree scene and later scenes in the west.
Of course, one of the best scenes of this masterchief movie... (with the great other one dancing on roller skate that personnally I adooooore and prefer ) HEAVEN'S GATE (La Porte du Paradis...that we, in France, are admiring sooooo much !!!), THANKS A LOT in memory of MICHAEL CIMINO who left this earth recently, but this magnificent movie is still alive !!! And in its complete restored original version, waouah !!! 🙏🏼🌟 A so wonderful chance for all actors to have been there, like our Isabelle Huppert in France and all the extraordinary others in the States..🌟
If Cimino did Citizen Kane, he show young Charles Foster Kane playing in the snow with his sled for a full interrupted fifteen minutes in sepiatone. All too show childhood innocence And his cultists would bill and coo over the stunning shades of yellow.
I can't believe you cut out that wonderful graduation scene and everything that went with it as it was so brilliantly done I really makes you wish you had belonged to their graduating class
I love the dance scenes in Heaven's Gate but for me the real point of the opening is the graduation speeches. The Harvard Dean speaks of the role of the educated to spread civilization in a new frontier society whilst John Hurt's character, in his response, scoffs at the notion, suggesting a more cynical "born to rule" attitude for the privileged and the educated.
OK. So I just realized that the girl Kristofferson falls for in this scene is Rosie Vela - writer, singer, backing vocals, and all-around beautiful model.
You have to be a magnificent director to shoot scenes like these ,bravo film making -criminally neglected at the time ,should be bought back and,re-released on the biggest screens everywhere.
not that it doesn't look great, but dressing oxford to look like harvard for your western has to go down as one of the most profligate creative decisions in film history. even kubrick turning south london into vietnam was more cost effective because he used every inch of set he could.
@@rsica1 well, you are in for an experience. I didn’t even like “The Deer Hunter.” When I’m teaching creative writing at Stanford in four years, I’m going to use clips from those movies to illustrate how not to write.
Harvard wouldn't allow commercial filming on its campus. The part in "Heaven's Gate" where the students circle a tree and compete to grab a wreath was based on an actual Class Day tradition at Harvard in the 19th century that was eventually banned because it got too rowdy.
I always assumed it was to contrast not only the youth, hope and exuberance of the characters here with their later experiences, but also eastern settled civilization versus the frontier, formality versus improvisation, sublimated personality conflict versus open violence.
Like almost all of this movie, it looks impressive but is idiotic. All these people dancing... and not an orchestra anywhere in sight. And there's no point to any of it. Heaven's Gate is a collection of setpieces that aren't badly done in and of themselves, but don't add up to a movie at all. The more you analyze this film, the stupider it gets.
I always found it hard to believe that an Old West sheriff could have a Harvard education. No doubt there were some guys from privileged Eastern backgrounds who ended up West but it always felt wrong
@@drparnassus2867 Nothing to add except compliments for replying 4 years later to a comment on your 5 year old OP. That's fine YouTubing and I respect that commitment.
That's one of my favourite aspects of the film. It deflates the usual stereotype of Eastern greenhorns being pansies and shows that a man can be badass and well educated at the same time. Not something you see in most Westerns. And it's not completely unheard of. Doc Holliday had a college degree as a dentist and notorious outlaw Tom Bell was a very educated physician before he turned to gunslinging, although they were both Southerners.
These mass scenes feel overchoreographed and quickly becomes dull and empty. Everybody is doing the same thing with the same intensity the same way. Its like watching puppets
Empty Gilded Age rituals that exist only to cover up the fact that all this people have in common - for all the joyous "brotherhood" they seem to display - it's just social class... often elicit this kind of reaction
@@herbayum76 but it's also kinda the point of the scene (together with the carefree feeling of "life is ahead of us! the possibilites are endless!" they have right after graduation, contrasted by their inevitable disillusionment 20ish years later... remember how John Hurt's character, a person with a seemingly bright future, says anguished to Averill "it's over, it's all over" right after this scene?)
Yes but this was also a completely pointless scene. A waste of good production. Well shot but it does little to the weight of the story. In fact, there were many pointlessly long scenes in the entire movie which made it boring sometimes. Come on! How many times must we watch a couple of guys waltz around the entire camera.
It is a pointless scene because Averill never went to Harvard period. CImino made up almost everything about the there main characters. Further he never explains why and how these people end up in Wyoming of all places. You cannot just show the Eastern elite, then show settlers, then show the made up Averill on a fancy ship at the end and say: That is really deep nd profound. Simply because you have not dramatically used the elements at all. Horrible picture.
Next you're gonna tell me that Salieri and Mozart didn't really have a rivalry like in Amadeus and Scottish warriors didn't really fight in Tartan and woad like they do in Braveheart. It's a movie, you pedant. Plenty of critically lauded films have played around with historical facts. All that Russian roulette BS in The Deer Hunter was made up too but the critics ate it up like strawberry shortcake.
crazy good cinematography here--combine it with the roller skating dance sequence--amazing film scenes!
Cimino was freaking obsessed with dance sequences
I think it's his homage to John Ford, the classic Western filmmaker. He loved putting song and dance scenes in his films as well.
The best use of Johann Strauss since '2001'.
People back then had so much fun doing simple things today can't even buy a thrill
This scene is absolutly beautiful.
To ironheart73: it's not a pointless scene. First, the parallel themes Cimino works with are the changes in both Kristofferson and in America, from an open, youthful exuberance to a dried-out husk... this is clearly a socio-political commentary. Second, note the end of the scene where the seniors charge the defended tree... and recall the echo of that scene in far less innocent conditions when the townspeople rally to defend themselves and encircle the mercenaries. These things are purposeful. I think it's a masterpiece.
i don't think it's a masterpiece but, it is a film that more people should seek out as it is a damn fine film. to me, the whole harvard scene is about kris kristofferson's jim averill character as this man of privilege and wealth who is been given this opportunity to actually do good with the knowledge he has been given. much of the film is about him trying to use his education and wealth to do good and help regular people as it's inspired by joseph cotten's character and his words which is something that john hurt's billy irvine seems to mock only to be lost in the role he's in.
i think you're interpretation is spot on as it's a film that raises a lot of questions as having purchased the 2012 criterion dvd definitely helped me enjoy the film. i really hope more people check it out and maybe give cimino one more chance to make a film and let's hope he is given a reasonable budget to work with.
Your point is well made; yes, the Harvard dance scene is paralleled in the skate dance scene. I'll ahve to watch the movie again to see the parallel between the tree scene and later scenes in the west.
The issue really aren't the scenes that much but the pacing. These just go on for way too long.
Yeah, but did it have to go on for this long and couldn’t there have been a better way to achieve that goal?
This film could of started when Kris K gets to town and it wouldn't have made a diff imo.
no matter what they say, one of the best western ever made
TheGuetschi, I agree. I have always loved this much underrated movie.
Some people talks crap about this movie like sheeps. First of all WATCH Heaven's Gate!
Aye, don't dissect it, enjoy it, let it roll..
I can appreciate the cinematography and choreography. It's striking to look at, but my goodness it goes on and on and on.
Not long enough for my liking.
Of course, one of the best scenes of this masterchief movie... (with the great other one dancing on roller skate that personnally I adooooore and prefer ) HEAVEN'S GATE (La Porte du Paradis...that we, in France, are admiring sooooo much !!!), THANKS A LOT in memory of MICHAEL CIMINO who left this earth recently, but this magnificent movie is still alive !!! And in its complete restored original version, waouah !!! 🙏🏼🌟 A so wonderful chance for all actors to have been there, like our Isabelle Huppert in France and all the extraordinary others in the States..🌟
What a wonderful scene. This film is a masterpiece with flaws. But still one of Americas most important movies.
If Cimino did Citizen Kane, he show young Charles Foster Kane playing in the snow with his sled for a full interrupted fifteen minutes in sepiatone. All too show childhood innocence And his cultists would bill and coo over the stunning shades of yellow.
Now I really need to watch this movie !
I can't believe you cut out that wonderful graduation scene and everything that went with it as it was so brilliantly done I really makes you wish you had belonged to their graduating class
They must have had some mega wide angle lenses here, because believe me, Mansfield College Oxford (where this was shot), is TINY!
Their main quad is actually among the biggest of all the colleges.
I love the dance scenes in Heaven's Gate but for me the real point of the opening is the graduation speeches.
The Harvard Dean speaks of the role of the educated to spread civilization in a new frontier society whilst John Hurt's character, in his response, scoffs at the notion, suggesting a more cynical "born to rule" attitude for the privileged and the educated.
OK. So I just realized that the girl Kristofferson falls for in this scene is Rosie Vela - writer, singer, backing vocals, and all-around beautiful model.
Hoy en día una obra maestra, una de las 100 mejores películas de la historia, pero cuando se estrenó le dieron de palos aquí y allá
What are all these Harvard grads doing 20 years later in a small western town instead of, say, Washington DC?
Yeah, I thought the same thing.
The movie is a masterpiece.
This was a good movie...in it's entirety.
You have to be a magnificent director to shoot scenes like these ,bravo film making -criminally neglected at the time ,should be bought back and,re-released on the biggest screens everywhere.
He failed to make a very coherent whole.
The lighting in this film is so subtle.
I think this scene might be a little too long, I can cut 30 seconds out of it.
did people actually do that?....beautifully dressed and dancing so wonderfully?....
This is the wh ite culture people like to pretend never existed.
r.i.p. michael
"Michelle"
Terrific scene but where is the music coming from? They are outdoors yet we hear an orchestra. I'm sorry to point it out it just bothers me a lot.
Thank you! I was just wondering that.
Cimino really thought people were not gonna think this goes on too long.
4 minutes too long? I pity your wife
not that it doesn't look great, but dressing oxford to look like harvard for your western has to go down as one of the most profligate creative decisions in film history. even kubrick turning south london into vietnam was more cost effective because he used every inch of set he could.
Where is the orchestra
Filmed at Mansfield College, Oxford, England
the theme to this movie is run every shot round and round .. vertigo ugh
Where can I watch the full movie?
ronaldo basttos in the US it is available via the criterion collection and in the UK via second sight films
Are you sure you really want to?
@@christinacascadilla4473 100% . Did you hate the movie?
@@rsica1 well, you are in for an experience. I didn’t even like “The Deer Hunter.” When I’m teaching creative writing at Stanford in four years, I’m going to use clips from those movies to illustrate how not to write.
@@christinacascadilla4473 well, you're a scholar. I'm just a movie buff, looking foward to watching movies. Cheers
This was exactly what my Harvard graduation was like.
Aye, same here..
Did you guys beat each other up in the ceremony? I keep trying to Google that but I can't find any information on it.
For someone who ruined a studio 'cause of an obsessive attention to detail, he filmed the scenes of Harvard at Oxford University. Go figure.
Also the fact, that you think shaving off Kristofferson's beard automatically makes him look 50 years younger!
Harvard wouldn't allow commercial filming on its campus. The part in "Heaven's Gate" where the students circle a tree and compete to grab a wreath was based on an actual Class Day tradition at Harvard in the 19th century that was eventually banned because it got too rowdy.
Harvard never allows movies to film there. That is why “The Social Network” was done at Johns Hopkins in the dark.
This scene makes very little sense...
The whole movie isn't big on comprehensibility...
I always assumed it was to contrast not only the youth, hope and exuberance of the characters here with their later experiences, but also eastern settled civilization versus the frontier, formality versus improvisation, sublimated personality conflict versus open violence.
This is a terrible film with some really good parts. I especially like the scenes at Harvard and also at the roller rink.
Like almost all of this movie, it looks impressive but is idiotic. All these people dancing... and not an orchestra anywhere in sight. And there's no point to any of it.
Heaven's Gate is a collection of setpieces that aren't badly done in and of themselves, but don't add up to a movie at all. The more you analyze this film, the stupider it gets.
do agree
I always found it hard to believe that an Old West sheriff could have a Harvard education. No doubt there were some guys from privileged Eastern backgrounds who ended up West but it always felt wrong
Dr Parnassus I think you are looking at it the wrong way
@@asafisher5202 Yeah, probably.
@@drparnassus2867 Nothing to add except compliments for replying 4 years later to a comment on your 5 year old OP. That's fine YouTubing and I respect that commitment.
That's one of my favourite aspects of the film. It deflates the usual stereotype of Eastern greenhorns being pansies and shows that a man can be badass and well educated at the same time. Not something you see in most Westerns. And it's not completely unheard of. Doc Holliday had a college degree as a dentist and notorious outlaw Tom Bell was a very educated physician before he turned to gunslinging, although they were both Southerners.
These mass scenes feel overchoreographed and quickly becomes dull and empty.
Everybody is doing the same thing with the same intensity the same way. Its like watching puppets
Empty Gilded Age rituals that exist only to cover up the fact that all this people have in common - for all the joyous "brotherhood" they seem to display - it's just social class... often elicit this kind of reaction
@@Red_____ agree! This mass expressio of selfgratification is rather annoying
@@herbayum76 but it's also kinda the point of the scene (together with the carefree feeling of "life is ahead of us! the possibilites are endless!" they have right after graduation, contrasted by their inevitable disillusionment 20ish years later... remember how John Hurt's character, a person with a seemingly bright future, says anguished to Averill "it's over, it's all over" right after this scene?)
They should have brought Michael Jackson in to choreograph it.
@@Red_____ keep it small and simple and stay close to your self..the rest is vanity..
Yes but this was also a completely pointless scene. A waste of good production. Well shot but it does little to the weight of the story. In fact, there were many pointlessly long scenes in the entire movie which made it boring sometimes. Come on! How many times must we watch a couple of guys waltz around the entire camera.
It is a pointless scene because Averill never went to Harvard period. CImino made up almost everything about the there main characters. Further he never explains why and how these people end up in Wyoming of all places. You cannot just show the Eastern elite, then show settlers, then show the made up Averill on a fancy ship at the end and say: That is really deep nd profound. Simply because you have not dramatically used the elements at all. Horrible picture.
open your mind
@@mizofan Garrison is right. This movie tampered with the facts too much.
Washington DC would have a far better place for them to end up.
Next you're gonna tell me that Salieri and Mozart didn't really have a rivalry like in Amadeus and Scottish warriors didn't really fight in Tartan and woad like they do in Braveheart. It's a movie, you pedant. Plenty of critically lauded films have played around with historical facts. All that Russian roulette BS in The Deer Hunter was made up too but the critics ate it up like strawberry shortcake.