the thing is joker is not intended to be a SMT representative, joker himself is only meant to represent persona 5. just look at the series icon that the developers chose, the phantom thieves logo.
no offence, last I checked in Persona 5 Arsene was quickly fused away cuz he was garbage, ofc they couldn't pick satanael, but even then, They could just have kinda did what they did with Demi-Fiend when he became a boss in Digital Devil Saga, they didn't just give him Pixie, they gave him a full roster, obviously to a lesser degree, but genuinely could have made a team with the mascot characters of the series, at the very least, they literally ignored the wild card, the main fundation of the series, wasted opportunity if you ask me.
@@OpossumPartyy Smash bros wasn't made with representation first, it was made to be accessible. With gaming icons being added because he can. Sometimes Sakurai feels that a character in their games is so over powered that in order for them to be balanced for Smash, they have to be simplified. If Joker had everything from Persona 5, It would be Bayonetta in Smash 4 but even worse. Characters like Steve and R.O.B don't need be simplified cause their not as fast as Joker.
For your proposed Velvet Room stage, would it be one of those stages that changes its layout? Like the layout could change to represent each iteration of the Velvet Room.
Here’s an idea, maybe it could kind of be like Gamer where the characters are all shrunk down on a table in the various velvet rooms, and whichever velvet room is in the background can show some characters from that game
Maybe do it similar to soras stage where as u go on u go from the persona 1 room to Persona 2 velvet room with piano and all that then persona 3's elevator with Elizabeth bullying theo in back to persona 4 arenas variation of the velvet room cause it be kinda hard to get the velvet limo working right to P5's jail with the execution materials OR maybe similar to being on the table but background changes to each game whilst u fight shrunk down on table amongst the tarot cards with the most iconic of each game along side igor such as P3 change becomes Elizabeth by igor or P4 being Elizabeth
I honestly already love Joker in smash. He just feels so stylish and flashy, nimble and fast like he is in p5, and while the arsene mechanic isn’t that faithful, it’s still a great mechanic that adds a lot of tension and hype to the game. Joker is honestly one of my favourite characters in the game.
I mean there are some characters Final Smashes & mechanics in Smash aren’t that faithful to their games, such as Link’s Triforce Slash & some of Shulk’s Monado Arts.
@@Lone_Wolf_Hero That's because some character can't work as a one to one translation, so changes have to be made. With Mega man it work because it's a 2d character in a 2d game. A turn based RPG character that's a bit tricker.
2:21 funny story, sakurai stated in a interview for joker’s release that he has actually played every single persona game from 1-5 when they released, he probably made joker work like this due to balancing
@@donbototo5068 you know that a lot of people just ended up fusing away arsene in the beginning of the game. Also Joker is the only megaten rep in smash, a franchise that created the monster taming genre, there should be demons in his arsenal but they didn't.
Tbh, I think you're looking at this wrong. Joker wasn't meant to represent the mechanics of SMT, He was meant to represent the themes and style of Persona 5 specifically. All of his nimble and acrobatic movements showcase his proficiency as a thief, the Rebellion Gauge may not be in the actual series anywhere, but it's an allegory for the process of awakening ones Persona in P5 in the first place. After a long period of time getting beaten down, you rebel and come out stronger, ready to crush the thing that was oppressing you. Representing the Wild Card certainly would have been cool, But with the Rebellion Gauge already giving him basically two versions of his moveset, And switching between those constantly mid-match, it may have just been too complicated. Maybe they could have had a few Personas slip in during certain moves, but keeping it to Arsene makes sense, It's what basically every other crossover of him does. The specials are where the more direct references the mechanics are. The Grappling Hook directly referencing the Royal Grappling Hook (despite Smash coming out of year earlier I'm sure it was referencing Royal behind the scenes), Eiha vs Eigaon Representing Tiers of moves (The curse is unique but it makes them more interesting then just projectiles), Gun is pretty direct, and even references the Down Shot with the Dodges, and the fact that they aren't real bullets by making them disjointed hitboxes instead of projectiles, and Tetrakarn and Makarakarn work effectively exactly like they do in P5. And of course the All-out Attack was pretty much ported. Bottomline Joker is by nature a lot more abstract than a lot of other character's representation, And you're free to not like that, but to say that he's a bad representation of his home series? I vehemently disagree. Not only because representing all of SMT was never even his job in the first place (Persona is basically a sister series at this point anyway), but he does represent the essence of his game extremely well, even with the liberties they took. I definitely would like a more traditional SMT rep for the mechanics themselves, but I don't think that had to be Joker specifically. Though I do love the moveset you presented. And would love for something like it to get into a Smash game in the future.
@@silverwalker2934 I feel a SMT moveset would be too similar to Hero or Robin, because those characters are what happens when you have an RPG character be a one to one translation in Smash.
I think that joker’s move set and animations do a pretty good job of representing him as a character, but like you said not the franchise as a whole. In order to balance him out why not keep the rebellion gage, then once it’s full, allow him to equip a persona. If we go with the menu idea, make it so your stuck with the persona you choose until the meter drains. Otherwise nix the menu and make em hot swappable like Pokémon trainer. The velvet room would definitely be a better stage, or if mementos is kept it’s forms should change between Tartarus, the Tv World, Calpas, ext. I think all-out attacks were the right choice for this game and implemented really well with the custom battle end screen. Smash 6 should be far enough out from p5 switch that spoilers become less of an issue so sinful shell would be awesome.
But at the same time, It's ATLUS and You know how butthurt They can get about spoilers (which is understandable because They want People to experience Their games Themselves and also money)
Mementos is a very boring stage pick. Everyone thought it would’ve been the iconic casino but now that you’ve mentioned the Velvet room I think that would’ve been the best choice.
My disappointment is that the background doesn't change with the music, like with persona 4 musoc have TV sets and mountains in the back, persona 3 have tartarus and the moon. But they just get the mementos map in blue or yellow.
I actually think that his neutral special for Arsene should stay as gun since the move Double Shot is in P5R. Or make it heavier but laggier shots as One-Shot Kill or Riot Gun.
I think this moveset would make for a great workshop character in Rivals of Aether, but I think that a lot of characters in smash don't really represent their series as much as they could to try and make a more uniform feeling game where most characters are understandable. The fire emblem cast and donkey kong are notable here. I do think that their is plenty of room for improvement with joker but a 4 way stance change that changes all your special feels more like a player made workshop character. I suppose this makes sense as, well, this moveset is player made.
@@leofont6026 Samus is meant to feel limited to reference how powerfulness Samus felt in the beginning of Super Metroid while adding moves from late game Super Metroid. Simply making Samus exactly as powerful as late game Super Metroid would be very broken.
I absolutely love the idea of implementing the tarot cards and Persona Break from P4Arena that's a really cool way to balance being able to use so many different Personas
I actually have a really big soft spot for joker’s moveset in smash, mostly because it feels like a reference to the P4 arena series of games with particular references like up tilt to one of yosuke’s normals and the awakening gimmick in general.However, it obviously isn’t indicative of the actual series, so I’ve been waiting for a video like this.
With so many Smash clones already, it would be great to develop one for Persona only. The possibilities are endless. Fans would love it and Atlus could plan so many costume DLCs that even Dead or Alive creators would be impressed.
Personally I think his moveset is perfect. The only thing I can think of to make it better would be to have 4 other protags from the other games instead of the simple color change alts (naoya, tatsuya, makoto, yu). It would be kind of like hero or bowser jr where they have other characters as alts. The model of arsene could even change to the other starting personas
I think a color change to the other persona pro tags would be best and a change to arsenes color scheme would also change to fit them but you couldn’t exactly do a complete swap like that since the personas don’t learn the same moves. Or have wings
@@jacksonbrickmedia939The issue is when you get into the smash attacks where Arsene uses claws that notably Orpheus and Izanagi doesn’t have. We also need to remember that Izanagi uses a lance/sword weapon. It’s not as simple as a model swap and some minor changes, it would require a completely overhaul for each protags animations. We also need to bear in mind that Yu uses swords and Door-kun never uses a dagger. At that point you’d be better off making them separate characters altogether.
9:33 i get the idea and its cool and all but its really just spoilers for satanael which may seem silly because its been 6 years since the game came out but i think you should keep the all-out attack because its an integral part of the game and as you said, joker is a walking ad for P5, so people would want to try the game and eventually try the other persona games and then smt games
well if smash 6 did include that which is coming in a not so closer timeline. persona 5 is gonna be on almost every platform as well, so everyone could experience the adventure too.
I mean, didn't they update Shulk's final smash even though the addition was kind of spoilery? Never played Xenoblade so I have no idea how impactful that is.
I always liked the idea of an SMT rep having Pixie, Jack Frost, and Cerberus instead of Jack O'Lantern. It's one of the oldest demons in the franchise, showing up even earlier than Jack Frost. I think it would be a bit more interesting visually as well.
As much as I love playing as Joker in Smash, I feel what you did for him here would be better to represent the entire franchise he comes from. If they ever were to release another SMT character into Smash, I feel their moveset should be similar to yours.
When Joker was announced I was kind of disappointed to see that he didn't have anything related to the wild card. What I wanted was something to similar to what you described. Joker has multiple personas and they all have their own set of specials. But, I realize that is insane amount of work for 1 character. That's 2 or more models each with their own set of animations,audio, and special effects. Not to mention scripting all the specials, testing them for bugs, and balancing them all for multiple patches. If I were to redo Joker, I'd probably give each special move and smash attack a different persona. It's probably still a lot animations(and other stuff) to make, but it's probably more feasible to make and balance than adding 4 different sets of special moves to one character.
@@jetstreamsham4968 Smash bros wasn't made with representation first, it was made to be accessible. With gaming icons being added because he can. Sometimes Sakurai feels that a character in their games is so over powered that in order for them to be balanced for Smash, they have to be simplified. If Joker had everything from Persona 5, It would be Bayonetta in Smash 4 but even worse. Characters like Steve and R.O.B don't need be simplified cause their not as fast as Joker.
7:15 I think Pixie should not only have a very long time limit, but she can only cas Dia for a certain amount of times like hero's heal for example. This in my case makes Joker a lot less painful to approach since you could theoretically just camp the entire game in not only in tournament, but also in online play. Also I think randomly getting a persona might be a lot better for 2 reasons, one it gives more spice to joker, two so the person doesn't choose the best persona out of the 4
@@-aexc- Dk in Smash is meant to represent the Arcade game first then add Country movies like the Dixie's helicopter. That way Dk can reference all his games.
@@dhans9662 Smash was mad for representation first, it was made because Sakurai wanted to make a fighting game that was more accessible then King of Fighters 95.
Kinda just sounds like you don’t understand smash very well. Compared to a lot of other characters and franchises, Joker received heaps of care and attention and he’s also literally one of the best characters in the roster. Another thing to point out is that he’s supposed to represent Persona 5 and Persona 5 alone. Sure they threw in references to 3 and 4 but that’s more something they didn’t have to do, but chose to because again, heaps of love and care. Also, how can you ask Sakurai if he’s played the game when he literally designed the menus after P5’s UI. You just seem kinda salty that you didn’t get everything you specifically wanted. Joker isn’t the only character they had to focus on.
joker should have an unsummon move if you don't wanna use a persona. I think shield + B or even a taunt where he puts the mask back on will do the trick
If they added Demifiend, he could be like a heavier Joker. Using many end-game demons, but his attacks being more slow but rewarding to hit. One cool idea I had was for Demi to have Charge, which makes him stay still for 2-4 seconds, but his next smash attack is doubled the damage.
Honestly I'd imagined a what if instead of Joker, why not they add Demi-fiend from Nocturne? It would be great since it's not only representating SMT but also it's whole franchise.
@@oni91119 What makes Shulk great is for every state increase there is a downside. For example, Smash art means that Shulk can kO opponents in one hit, but it also makes it easier for opponents to kill him😳. It's called risk and reward. What would be the downside of summing Jack or Pixie??? Without any risk, Joker having everything could make him overpowered. So if Sakurai can't figure out how to balance an overpowered character, he simplifies them (to the extreme). To Sakurai balance is more important, then representation.
@Orange Slash this is why i said pixie or jack frost would be fine, even though i think jack frost would be worth more since it makes sense. But worrying about risk and reward in smash is like the least thing you could do when rng litterally exists and characters like hero and kazuya exists which is kinda ironic. Joker wouldn't really feel out of place tbh, plus i chose pixie and jack frost for obvious reasons given they're pretty weak in the games
I never watch videos like these from the actual smash community bc they feel too pie in the sky but this was honestly a really reasonable take on what they do all the time. I liked how you used existing moves to demonstrate what your proposed changes would be like, as it helped me understand better since I only casually play smash from time to time
Honestly, I quite liked Joker's moveset. I don't mind him just having Arséne (besides given how many people do Arséne-only runs that's even more accurate) and I don't think every character needs to resemble their original characters to a T. If that were the case we wouldn't have the single most iconic move in the entire franchise. Funnily enough, out of all the DLC characters, Joker is almost the most experimental given how not very experimental he is. Like they were testing the waters with what they could do with a DLC characters before following up with Hero's shopping list of spells, Kazuya's manifesto of a move list, and Steve. With that said, I do really like what you came up with, hell if you're going with this kind of rework, go all the way and have each Persona affect his stats, like movement speed, damage of his normals and throws, and maybe even his knockback resistance. Just a couple of slight nitpicks that, for one I'd go with the Dyne-tier spells (Joker might as well bright his A-game), and for two, I don't think the Sinful Shell animation should bother with Yaldabaoth. Just have Satanael nuke his opponent and be done with it lol. Also Mementos gives me a headache and I'd gladly replace it with the Velvet Room. Also also more SMT references are always welcome.
I was pretty much alright with how Joker turned out in Smash, but if they were to add, say, Demi-fiend, I'd definitely want them to spend a lot of time making sure he feels like he does in his own game (slow, heavy, all his specials involve summoning different demons, etc).
If/when there's a Smash 6, I'd hope for a better overall Megaten character since Atlus/Sega will probably be one of the easier 3rd party partners to bring back. If Joker returned and stayed as-is, but they added Demi-Fiend to be the vehicle for the Demons and other stuff getting some spotlight it would be cool.
It's been a year since this video came out and it's actually really cool. I do have some ideas that would better represent the persona games, as having only the early game personas are kinda unoriginal (no offense). I personally would change Arsene's specials, and switch out Jack Frost and Pyro Jack for other personas that are more diverse and from other mythologies still recognizable and from later in the game rather than the starting point (balanced, of course). I would replace them with Matador and Cu Chulainn. I chose them to each fit a role. A physical persona which specializes in attacks and a gimmicky persona which utilizes more magic. They may not fit, but who knows, maybe the moveset will stick but the personas change depending on costume to better fit the characters. I considered adding Black Frost, but 4 personas are already a lot to juggle for a player. 5 would be nice for a little more representation, but wouldn't be as easy to add on. I would give each persona a "trait" that sticks with Joker, like in Royal (disclaimer: they do NOT work the same way, and are more fitting of their "roles") Arsene's would be the fact that the tarot cards restore faster when he is active. Also, Arsene's max tarot cards would be 5 instead of 4. Switching to another persona removes a card, but it stays at 4 afterward. Arsene actually have Eiha, but Tetrakarn/Makarakarn would be removed in favor of Dream Needle, a light jab-like attack that can cause enemies to fall asleep. Weak on it's own, but can be an ace in the hole if an enemy is at high percentage. Next would be Pixie's changes, which are minimal. In order to balance Dia, I would make Dia use up the tarot cards instead of having a cooldown. That way, if you play your cards right, you can use up all 4 of your tarot cards to heal 55%, but you can't do anything substantial from that point onward due to persona break. Pixie's trait makes Joker a little faster and lighter, like a weight removal and speed increase. Noticable, but not broken. Next is Matador. Matador's up special would be Magaru, and it can lift Joker up into the air like Hero's up special (the canonical reason for this is this is Joker's matador that he fused for caroline and justine). The winds would stretch more outward than Hero's up special, though. His side special would be Swift Strike, where Matador whips out his cloth and does decent damage to enemies in that direction. Neutral special would be Psio, shooting balls of psychokinetic energy that do extra damage and knockback to fighters who are shielding, fighters who are dizzy, and fighters who are asleep. His trait would be resistance to status skills, like lessened shield break and lesser sleep time, and also makes it easier to mash out of those effects. Finally is Cu Chulainn, a physical persona. Up special would be a leap, followed by his lance stabbing downwards, like Pyra's up special. Side special is One-Shot Kill, where Joker aims his gun, and Cu Chulainn will stab his spear at the same time Joker fires, creating a dramatic bullet effect thing. Powerful, but slow buildup. Joker's neutral special would be Charge/Concentrate, where holding the button would grant him an orange aura that powers up his next move, like Hero's Psyche Up (if it's a magic attack that is powered up, it will have blue effects like Arsene's actual attacks in smash). Charge increases damage, knockback, and decreases starting frames of an attack. Concentrate upgrades magic skills to a more powerful version (Eiha to Eigaon, Psio to Mapsio [more balls], Zio to Ziodyne [like robin], Magaru to Garula [increases height, less horizontal damage]) Pressing the B button again makes Cu Chulainn perform a devastating upwards slash (Brave Blade), but the Charge could be used on any attack. Once Charge has been used, you can only Charge again after Brave Blade is used. Cu Chulainn's trait is less stun time and reduced knockback after taking a hit, making it easier to counter and react to an opponent. He also gives Joker's normal attacks increased damage, but by one or two percent. I designed this moveset to complement itself well. For example, Arsene can make enemies sleep, and Matador can follow up with it. Or Cu Chulainn can Concentrate, and Pixie can Ziodyne or Arsene can Eigaon.
Personally I feel like a really good change for his alts would be adding the p4 and p3 protagonist with him, giving them one alt each, then give the original p1 and p2 characters
One thing I've noted is that several RPG protagonists are based on their most marketable version rather than builds a player would use. In Marth's case it makes sense because each game he stars in gives him two attack animations, unlike Roy and Chrom having more due to FE13 special skills and being able to promote. The first major noticeable case of this was Shulk. The original Xenoblade didn't have the option to change your appearance without changing your stats, so there's no way the average player would leave the red jacket own, on top of the Monado changing shape several times throughout the story. Joker is the case talked about here, he only uses Arsene because it's the starter Persona. This particular case was handwaved with "who cares? Arsene is awesome!" The Hero is an odd case in that they were made to represent a single entity when many of them have moves that the rest can't learn or can use other weapons/armour. Starting with The Luminary, he has the Supreme Sword of Light and the hero's shield but doesn't get an outfit based on Erdwin's outfit, nor does he put his Zweihander skills to the test. Arusu is an odd case in that there isn't a single piece of equipment in his game that matches the unique outfit shown in both his artwork or Smash. He doesn't get an outfit based on the armor commonly associated with Erdrick (Auroral Armor and Ortega's Helmet) and doesn't get to show his proficiency with many weapons. Solo's sprite has always bothered me because it shows him wearing the Zenithian Helmet that he doesn't have when he starts out but not the rest of the Zenithian equipment. Seeing this reflected in Smash brothers me once again. And again, he doesn't get to show off his wide range of weapons because he has to share the spotlight with the rest. Last but not least, there's Eight. He has this really cool Dragovian armor he doesn't get a costume for and despite being the only character in his game to have a lance skillset, he doesn't get to show any unique lance moves. Fortunately, those were the last and I think Byleth, the Aegis and Sora all represent their moves really well.
While I loved joker in persona 5, it still feel weird that no other shin megami tensei represtion despite most shin megami tensei being in Nintendo console, while persona games are in Sony one(expect for the spin-off), I guess you can said joker respesnt megmai tensei like how cloud respent final fanasty, but still feels weird.
i think this idea for a newly revised joker moveset is cool, and i like the new ideas. But i do think Joker’s current set is fine- ( i really do like the edition too him using the grappling hook more, since Smash the the hook first before P5R ) but aside from that, I like the only persona being used is Arsene. In the actual game you 9 times out of 10 aren’t even gonna use Arsene so i feel like in this game, You can sacrifice a bit of originality of the P5 wild card antic for this since Arsene is outclass but looks really cool and draws the eyes in. ( also that last reason is more selfish cause arsene just happens to be my favorite persona )
I'm honestly kinda impressed with this joker concept however it would be cool to see other personas such as Yoshitsune or Surt to use a move like ragnarok or hassou tobi. I just think the animations would look pretty cool.
Honestly Demi-Fiend is probably best as a MegaTen franchise rep, especially since he's the go-to guy Atlus uses to bring back for Superbosses (DDS 1, Imagine and 5) For his dash attack, him punching in a similar animation as the regular attack (even sliding for more accuracy) is probably the first thing I could think off, for the rest of his regulars, probably a roundhouse kick for his Forward Smash (the animation for Xeros-Beat in DDS Avatar Tuner), Javelin Rain for his Up Smash and Gaea Rage for his Down Smash. Rest could be just regular punches and kicks. For his Neutral Special, he could charge a shot in a similar way to Samus, where he will use Divine Shot at low charge, Spiral Viper at medium charge, and Freikugel at full. His side special will have him use Magma Axis, a fire beam that can be angled similar to R.O.B's laser. His Down Special will have him open a menu like Hero's, here he can select one of his more iconic demons to use a skill: Tetra/Makarakarn for Girimekhala, Fire Breath for Cerberus, Glacial Blast for Titania, Maziodyne for Thor, and Megidolaon for Pixie. He cannot summon the same demon again until he has used all of them previously. Up Special would be him summoning a random demon from his Down Special pool, which will cast Liftoma on him, moving him upwards.
i mean, Yu can also use any persona at will in P4, but in P4A he only ever uses Izanagi in his combos for not just save alot of dev time, but for balancing reasons (and the fact they are the first personas you ever get, sooo yeah....it adds to that representation bit), why do you think Pokemon Trainer only has 3 pokemon out of the nearly 1000 pokemons to choose from?
Honestly, I had issue with this because of how it's kinda just shoving a bunch of references somewhat haphazardly into a character and the suggestions are busted,, Jack Frost alone would be a nightmare if we're under the idea that the main moveset is relatively the same, but I might've found a way to make it feel less jank, if they reimplemented customs and had Joker equip different Persona instead of regular ass customs like Smash 4. The changes could then have both the active "Change special properties" but then each Persona has a secondary passive buff like Arsene buffs your Smash attacks but Jack Frost might make you take less knockback and you're slower but you get freezing and the random buff for your down special, Pixie makes you lighter, and I'm talking Jigglypuff light, in exchange for your heals. Not a perfect solution or completely thought out but something along those lines would probably be better. Last thing, I think spoilers in final smashes are a no-no, looking at you Shulk.
Actually, Sakurai did a full clear playthrough of P5 only missing Yusuke's max social link (Sugita was upset lol). I do think his moveset is a little boring, but it could totally be back to licensing these designs sadly. Like each piece of art might have its own legal hurdles.
Speaking of Demi Fiend as a Rep in Smash, I came up with this Moveset one day while I was Board. It's a Long read, so be warned. Weight class: Above average (only slightly heavier than Mario and Corrin). Jab: A simple 3 hit jab, Starting with a Hook punch from one arm, followed by a Gut punch from his other arm, then ends it with a simple roundhouse kick. Dash attack: Lunge. A normally weak attack in SMT, but actually does solid damage and knockback, sort of like Ganondorf's Dash attack. Side tilt: Uses his Demon blade to do a quick Horizontal slash. Up Tilt: A fast, but average damage uppercut, good as a sort of Anti air and can combo early on. Down Tilt: A quick leg sweep that pops foes into the air. F-Smash: Heat Wave, basically acts like Pyra's F-Smash, but with less startup. Up Smash: Magma Axis, gathers Firey energy in his hands, then raises them skyward to create a stream of fire going skyward, with about as much reach as Palutena's Up smash. Down Smash: Gaea Rage, Does a Battle cry motion that causes the ground around Demi Fiend to erupt with demonic energies. Best for hitting grounded opponents, but is the Strongest of Demi Fiend's Smash attacks. N-Air: The common Lingering kick Nair (only because I couldn't think of anything else, you know how this type of move works). F-Air: A fast, but hard hitting Straight punch. B-Air: A double Backwards kick like Bowser's Back air. Up Air: A Crescent moon kick like Falcon's or Ganon's up air. Down air: A powerful Axe kick that can spike foes if his by the Sweet spot, which is Demi Fiend's foot as he brings it downward. Grabs with one arm. Pummel: Decks the foe in the face using his free arm. Forward throw: Slams them into the ground so hard they bounce forward, Pixie then shows up afterwards to cast Zio on the victim before launching them away. Back throw: Basically the same as the forward throw, but this time Jack Frost decides to assist by freezing the foe, which can lead into free extra damage or even combos. Up throw: Delivers a swift uppercut. No demon Ally to assist here, it's all Demi Fiend. Down throw: Girimekhala Appears to smash the foe into the Ground, Burying them. Neutral Special: Has 3 Varients based on how long you hold the button down for. Cannot store the charge for any of the Varients. Varient 1: if you only tap the button, you get Divine Shot, which Fires a quick burst of Energy from Demi Fiends hand that doesn't travel far, but is a pretty good get off me tool that can send foes hit by it a fair distance. Varent 2: if you hold it for 1 or more seconds, but let go before 5 seconds have passed, you get Spiral Viper, which fires a beam from Demi Fiend's forehead that Travels about 2/3 of the length of Final Destination, but is much stronger, and has more knockback. Varient 3: if you hold the button for a full 5 seconds, you can launch Freikugal, a Devastatingly powerful blast that goes the full screen of Final Destination, is not counted as a projectile so it can't be absorbed or reflected, ignores counters and does ALOT of Shield Damage, and can score potential early KOs, but comes with the most end lag out of all the Varients, and you have to commit fully to using it. Side Special: Deadly Fury, basically a Stronger version of Mii Brawler's Onslaught, traveling further than said move and it doesn't put you into free fall, but if you don't hit anyone, you can only use it once in mid air. Up Special: Improvised move, I call it Demonic Ascension, Which is a Combination of Pikachu's Quick attack and Wolf's Fire Wolf up specials. Down Special: Summon Demon Allies. Demi Fiend summons one of his demon allies from a pool of 6 specific demons that all have their own health pool and behaviors. Demi Fiend can only have one Demon out at a time, the Demon Chosen is Random, and he cannot summon the same Demon ally twice in a row, and once a demon ally is defeated, he has to wait a bit before he can summon them again. Demon ally 1: Pixie. Generally stays close to Demi Fiend, Casts spells like Zio (Basically Robin's Arc Thunder), Dia (Hero's Heal) and Megidolon (a Powerful Explosion of energy that can send the foe flying). Reccommend KOing Quickly, because if she stays alive for too long, she'll cats Recarmdra, which will act as the Special Flag item. Fortunately (for the opponent anyway), she is tied for the Lowest health of all of Demi Fiend's allies, only able to take 35% worth of damage before being KO'd, but she comes back the fastest of Demi Fiend's allies, only taking 8 seconds to respawn. That being said, there will be a 1/16 chance that When you summom Pixie, she will be summoned as SUPER Pixie. This version doesn't have Recarmdra, but DOES have more powerful attacks, including the Devistating Ziodyne, an increased Damage and Knockback Megidolon, and has Diarama as a more potent heal. Super Pixie also takes twice the damage to kill, needing 70% of Damage before she goes down, and if Super Pixie is KO'd Pixie will be out if commision for Longer than normal with a 45 second respawn timer instead of her usual 8. Demon ally 2: Jack Frost. Wanders around the Stage aimlessly, only really attacking foes if either attacked himself, or if Demi Fiend is attacked while near him. Uses Ice Breath (Ice Climber's Blizzard), and Bufudyne (which is like PK Freeze) to deal damage and freeze foes. Has the same health as normal Pixie, and takes 10 seconds to respawn. Demon Ally 3: Cu Chulian. He basically behaves like a combination of the Alucard and Lyn Assist Trophies, using his Spear either for quick multi hitting damage, or for a Single Powerful strike, usually doing alternating between them. Requires around 50% of Damage before he can be taken out, and requires 18 seconds to respawn. Demon Ally 4: Parvati. Sticks close to where she is summoned, unless summoned off stage, then she lands near the edge and sticks close to that spot. Heals for just a little more HP than Pixie's Dia and can also buff Demi Fiend Using Luster Candy, which basically will give Demi Fiend a combination of Manodo Buster, Speed and Shield without their downsides, but Parvati doesn't do anything else. Still Reccommend taking her out asap though, as those Luster Candy buffs can stack up to twice, which means if you're fighting Demi Fiend, that can get out of hand fast. She hasn't got much health though, only being able to take 37% worth of Damage before being KO'd, and also takes 30 seconds to respawn. Demon Ally 5: Cerberus. Basically acts like the Pokemon Solgaleo, but he doesn't go away until defeated. Can take 48% damage before being taken out, and takes 25 seconds to respawn. Demon ally 6: Girimekhala. Easily the Strongest Summonable Demon I'm giving Demi Fiend aside from Super Pixie, and for good reason. He hits like a Truck, has ALOT of health, being able to take 120% worth of damage before being KO'd, only takes half damage from physical strikes (referencing Girimekhala's innate Physical resistance without outright making him immune like in the main games. Still R.I.P to physical attackers), and he does not flinch when being hit, unless by elemental, PSI or Magic based projectiles. Girimekhala however is also the Slowest Demon Demi Fiend can summon, not being very Mobile, doesn't really jump all that much, and his attacks have some endlag to them. And if Girimekhala is defeated, he takes a full 45 seconds before he can respawn just like Super Pixie. Final Smash: Arrival of the Fiends. A cinematic Final Smash where Demi Fiend fires a quick Freikugal blast that pulls enemies into a Cinematic where they are attacked by the Fiends, Matador, Daisoujo, Hell Biker, White Rider, Red Rider, Black Rider, Pale Rider, Mother Harlot and finally Trumpeter, with it ending with Demi Fiend firing a stronger looking Freikugal. If the Target it at 100% of damage or more when the cinematic ends, it will be an automatic KO. Taunts: Up taunt: Pixie shows up and flies around Demi Fiend while he looks at her, much like Toon Link's Side Taunt. Side Taunt: Jack Frost shows up and jumps around Demi Fiend before the two do a quick bro fist before Jack Frost vanishes. Down Taunt: Does his Iconic pose we see in his official artwork, and when using Chaotic will in SMT V, with red demonic aura flaring from him. Victory animations: 1: Does his Signature pose while looking at the camera menecingly. 2: Interacts with one of his 6 demon allies while praising them, then they do a pose (as a fun detail, if Demi Fiend wins a match with one of his demon allies out, the demon in question will be the one in this victory animation). 3: the screen begins to darken before the Camera pans to Demi Fiend and all 6 of his Demon allies, their eyes glowing menecingly in the darkness, Demi Fiend slowly approaching the Camera before the screen fades completely to black.
I think the inspiration for the move set might had been from a what if joker was in p4a/p4au with adjusted to fit more along the line of smash bros. Does if fit with the series not really but when you got like a lot of ways to play a "persona game" I guess you can take a few liberties
Thank Nyarly for a another great video in truth I only found out what persona was because of smash bros when they announced that joker was going to be in smash.
This is very creative but I think a more realistic option would be to have all of the specials utilize a different persona and I think it would flow better rather than choosing from a menu. I also think it would be cool if they added Demi fiend as an echo character and the demons you mentioned would go to him while joker uses Arsene Izanagi Orpheus and Jack Frost so that he can represent persona and Demi fiend can represent mainline MegaTen
Joker just being a stand user doesn't really capture the whole feeling of the wildcard being, well, a wild card, versatile. For music, SMT IV's battle A2 has a nice feel, mechanical rhythm kinda vibes, SMT strange journey battle 2 gives me wrath of the reset bomb vibes, and I'd also personally like SMT DX2's battle theme to be on there. Now I don't really play DX2, but it has boppin music, and mobile game music is in Smash, there's a remix of Gear Up For, which is a track unique to FE Heroes, the fire emblem mobile gacha.
9:36 the eighth skin is actually supposed to represent the summer uniform, I don’t see it but I guess the model devs just didn’t want to create another model to work with the animations
I think the concept is nice, but I think this nerfs Joker quite a lot. Since he doesn’t have access to the limited use Arsene, and his aerials, smash attacks and tilts would all be his standard moves. This would leave him as a slightly stronger Shiek, with the benefit that you can change his specials. I think the concept you presented could actually continue to his aerials and smash attacks. While the tilts and jab should remain the same, maybe you could assign a different persona to a single direction to his aerials and smash’s (kind of like Byleth). Arsene would be assigned down, using his wings in the smash attack to hit after Joker’s swipes and give him access to a spike. Pixie would be assigned up, so she would fly up a little bit when Joker throws his dagger and fly along with Joker’s up air. Jack Frost and Jack’o Lantern would fill the forward smash area, but do different things. Frost could come out after his swing to give Joker access to a double hit smash (kind of like Links), and the Lantern could make his smash attack slower but use his flame breath to give it more range. The former would take up the forward aerial spot, maybe swinging along with Joker, and the latter could take up his back air, which would cause maybe a small explosion after Joker’s swipe. With all of the Persona’s assigned to a single area, you can even apply one more change: different speeds and damage ranges for each persona. In the games, each Persona has their own stats that they excel at. While you could say that each Persona could be 99 in each stats, I think it would be interesting to have each persona accomplish something different. Arsene would be the all rounder, keeping Joker’s attacks and speed the same. Pixie would be maybe slightly faster, but have weaker attacks all around. Jack Frost and Jack’o Lantern would make Joker slower, but overall boost his attacks with Frost out while his specials would be boosted with Lanterns. This not only strengthens his representation by showing the uniqueness of each Persona, but by allowing the player to choose they’re own play style. Not only that, but you now have more of an active reason to change your persona’s around to fit each separate situation. Just like a true Phantom Thief and just like a Wild Card… I think…
Joker feels just right in Smash, I feel like he's character, feel and style were completely on point. They nailed it. His victory screens are also the coolest in the game. Also, how can you complain about the franchise representation when he basically has 2 extra stages representing P4 and P3. Personally, I was and still am completely satisfied with this DLC.
I think the competitive scene would be very scared with this Joker running around. Either way nobody cares about the competitive scene so I say this works well to broaden the scope of Persona representation in Smash and I love that.
He did play persona 5. He didn’t want to spoil the game by adding more personas and also made him more simple to play like other smash characters. I do understand your feelings about your character not being fully being represented but do understand how limited smash is.
"do understand how limited smash is" Meanwhile Hero can use a whole lot of spells they cannot learn, Terry can Power Wave in the air, Snake can ride an Cypher, K Rool uses abilities of his three different personas (lol) from the DKC trilogy and 64, the Belmonts can use different sub items at the same time... And do I really need to mention Steve and Kazuya here?
@@OniLinkBrazil1993 it was for spoiler reasons. You can always go look at the joker video he made on his release day. Coming after me won’t fix joker. 🤷🏿 Also he was in the first line of dlc terry and the rest were better anyway
@@OniLinkBrazil1993 Remember competitive Smash fans hate Hero because of how inconsistent he is, which is bound to happen when an RPG character is a one to one translation of their games. Sakurai usually focus more on balance than representation. So he simplifies the characters if they have too much to work with. Steve doesn't need to be simplified because he's very simple on the surface and is slow. Persona 5 is not simple.
I have to disagree with agilao being the neutral special because come on it's exactly the same as zio, eiga, and bufu so it should be the side special. Also I am very much aware of fire breaths prominence in SMT games, but like.. it's not in persona 5. I would suggest having him cast dazzler for neutral special (since in my perfect world agilao is his side special), which would work like Mario's cape but with bigger range and no ability to reflect
Eh I think his taunts involving Morgana is the least offensive thing like does it need him? no. but can you think of a good reason not to have him? Joker's always with Morgana in game like him or not he's a mascot and one of joker's friends canonically the gang likes him even if other people don't. I say at least keep the one where he says "looking cool joker" As for his moveset I save buff him so he can do some significant damage cause like samus it just feels like he can't deal a killing blow but is light enough to get destroyed at like 50%+ percent by anyone. Meanwhile I can play mario and dust alot of people at the 40% mark; Maybe I'd add that Arsene's reach would me more in his kicks, stay out longer and the rebellion gage would be easier to fill out. As for his final smash I think it's fine as is, remember Switch JUST got royal and it's not even out currently. That would be a huge spoiler for the game, weather a person wants to play joker or another does. Keeping it All out attack lives the best climax of the game intact and a surprise for anyone new to P5. That be like showing Sora showing a big spoiler from kingdom hearts in his final smash. I overall think Joker is fine if not in need for a buff.
Personally I'm perfectly fine with Joker's moveset as it is right now, especially the detail how all of his specials are items/basic actions from the game when he doesn't have Arsene (like how "Eiha" is actually him snapping his fingers to use a Curse Bomb)
Loved the video and i defiantly agree with joker final smash being santanel. Honestly that should have been his final smash for when he has aresne out by default when he was first release
Agreed with almost everything with the exception of his final smash. Honestly his final smash is good as is. Smash already has a lot of characters whose final smash is just "character casting a huge flashy looking spell". Examples are Sephiroth, Kazuya, Samus and Dark Samus, to a certain degree Sora, Megaman, Palutena and King K Rool and Joker pulling up Satanael would just be more of that. His current final smash not only does it have its own artstyle pulled from the game but its probably the most unique looking final smash in the game since its not just 3d models doing stuff.
His reveal trailer didnt say "Super Smash Bros X SMT", it said "Super Smash Bros X Persona 5". He wasnt meant to represent the ENTIRE SMT series or even the entire persona series.
I honestly love this! But i do wish joker could use his gun even when he has a persona out. The gun is so much fun to use in smash and it'd limit the player to only use it when persona break or before commiting to a persona
My idea was to make the jabs bare more resemblance to the 3-hit combo in P5, the tilts are fine as they are. For smash attacks though, I thought it'd be cooler and more practical for Joker to summon personas that use physical skills. Up smash - Summons Siegfried to use Rising Slash, Down smash - Summons Yoshitsune to use either Hassou Tobi, Forward smash - Summons Kali to use Brave Blade. Here's where things get a bit much if they haven't already. Joker's specials enhance when he hits 100%. Gun for Neutral Special is fine but turns into One-shot kill at 100% that shoots 1 piercing projectile, dealing huge damage and knockback but can't be used until he hits 100% again. Side Special summons Jack frost for Bufula that has the same effect as ice climbers down B, turns into Bufudyne at 100% which freezes a second or two longer and deals 7 more percent than bufula. Down Special summons Pixie for Mazionga which sends out 2 electric spheres akin to Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, turns into Maziodyne which has 3 spheres orbit Joker and can be launched in the direction he's facing with additional presses and deal more damage when fired. Up special stays the same but at 100% summons Arsene for Wings of Rebellion. Grab changes to use the grappling hook, down throw changes to Arsene stomping, aerials stay the same except down air changes to spike all the time, dash attack stays the same and the final smash is the All-out Attack but it kills 4% sooner. This was all a LOT but it'd showcase how much Joker uses personas and stuff and stuff
I definitely think that if Joker is going to lose his Gun neutral B then it should be added into other parts of his kit. Maybe his downtilt is a croutching shot in front of him or his down Smash is a weaker version of the knockdown shot from his game. Other than that, I think that either Pixie or Jack Frost should be replaced. This might be more of a personal thing but they seem to clash with Arsene too much. Instead they should be a P5 party option where each special summons out a different party member. Side B would summon out the Morgana car that Joker can ride. His neutral special should be himself and 3 other party members shooting out in front of them like how they do in some boss fights. His down B could have a Yusuke come out and defend him as a counter. His up B could be the grappling hook here. I feel like this would fit the image they were going for with Joker a bit better. Namely he's a master thief and he has his tools. From Arsene as a powerhouse, Pyro Jack as the explosives expert, the rest of the Phantom Thieves being his entourage and Jack Frost/Pixie being there.
Interesting ideas but I disagree with your logic of replacing All-out attack being "we see it too much in P5". AoT is a staple of the Persona franchise so it makes sense that the FS is that rather than the one-time cutscene only move Sinful Shell. Even if AoT is used a lot it's still more iconic and memorable than Sinful Shell. As for grappling hook grabbing onto people if I recall correctly that was only in P5R which wasn't out at the time (Royal came out in Oct 2019 in JP (2020 elsewhere), Joker was announced in Dec 2018 & came out in June 2019). Also, like someone else said Joker's representing P5 (and to an extent P4/3 as well), not SMT as a whole, though him using more than one persona would've been nice to see I will admit. Maybe if a new smash game is made and Joker's included he'll be changed but I doubt it as outside of a few exceptions Sakurai doesn't like changing characters movesets for fear of alienating their players.
Knowing how sakurai/nintendo works, IF there's a next smash and joker comes back, they probably are just changing his Up-B to be always Arsene's wings and make the hook a tether grab.
I love almost everything about this. My change would be to have something more akin to the system that Shulk uses but that's just because I want to be able to throw out more personas. The Jacks are great and I love Pixie but it feels very bare bones. I'd be more inclined to pull out some of the more mid to late game demons like King Frost or Thor but that's just my thoughts.
I have no clue why you think they chose Joker to “represent” megaten or even persona. He’s there to represent the P5 only’s lmao. They didn’t even add a Jack Frost spirit, they don’t care about the other games at all
Ya, joker is cool but I woulda liked diff sp moves other than just side b, but I like that he comes off as this fast quick assassin. Just wish it fit in more with his methodical, burst heavy tactician like approach. Mostly cause ya joker looks and acts cool but really his whole thing in the games that makes him special is that he's a Pokemon trainer
I really like this take on Joker even if I do enjoy the character as it is in the game. The only things I would change are 1: switching the neutral and down specials. It would make it a bit more intuitive as he'd essentially play the same way as Shulk with how he changes Monado arts with his neutral special. And 2: Change Pyro Jack for another persona, but I can't really decide on which one. It'd have to be someone that can inherit the moves you gave Pyro Jack without looking too out of place. Again, I like the direction they took in the end, but this moveset makes a lot of sense for a character like Joker, especially when we have characters like Shulk, Hero and Sora to compare him to.
While I did think it would've been neat to see Joker use other personas other than Arsene, I never really was bothered by Joker's moveset at all and didn't think it needed much change BUT with the context of Hero being brought up (Which I had never made the comparison until watching this video), the moveset change DOES make alot of sense! As for music, I absolutely would've loved to see more tracks from older games, if not from the original PS1 releases then at least in remake form. Maybe one or two SMT tracks would've been nice to hear too, especially since the Velvet Room stage wouldn't have Mementos' (Although VERY cool) colour change gimmick.
a lot of the specials seem really fun, but I feel like one of jokers strong suits in ssbu is his normals when he does have his persona. It's hard for me to think of a balanced way to change his normals based on his persona though
i get a lot of your ideas but i think all the mainline smt representation should be saved for if a mainline protag makes it in (which i hope is the case.) honestly the only things i personally think joker should change are the following: his idle stance and animations. make them from persona 5 instead of these nothing animations they gave us. i agree with what you said about his jab so i wont talk about it here his neutral special when arsene is out should be the same but change the name to triple down. its always bothered me that its called "gun special" when most of his normal gun attacks already act like how gun special works in p5. his down taunt should be his showtime prompt in royal (yknow where hes like "lets do this!") his side taunt should be the pause screen of persona 5 his final smash can be all out attack for basic joker and sinful shell when arsene is out (if ryu and ken can have two final smashes so can he) his alts should represent the other phantom thieves instead his stage should have purple and orange variations with persona 1/2 tracks along with it his spirits should also have more from the persona series and lastly, his series icon should be that face thats on the back of the tarot cards in most of the persona games instead of the phantom thief logo
@@livingdoubt54 actually jokers alts in smash represent the color theme of the persona games. Blue is persona three, yellow is persona four, and purple is persona two.
@@livingdoubt54 I couldn’t remember if there is a difference between one and two in terms of color theme. It’s not super obvious compared to three and four. One of the things I’ve noticed in Smash is that if a characters representation jersey meet, Farren, expectation, most likely means that the character is purposely reduced for balance reasons. So if a character in Smash exceeds expectations that means the character is canonically not overpowered???
As much as I like Sinful Shell to be the final smash, most people would be spoiled on the ending of P5 original. I know a lot of people know it, but it is one helluva moment and should be experienced firsthand. I think for the next smash, they should take ques from Persona 5 Strikers and have Morning Star as the final smash. Why? Because that is the strongest Persona one can obtain before fighting any of the final bosses and would give huge SMT representation. Also, for the Jack Bros and Pixie, they could work like Hero from Dragon Quest and have them perform Agi-Agidyne, Bufu-Bufudyne, Zio-Ziodyne, with Arsene having One-shot Kill and Eigaon.
Another idea that'd be more of a "small but nice" change. Is where his Rebellion Gauge thing stays. But it's not just Arsene. Each smash and special would get it's own Persona. Could make it 1 of each arcana of his team. I can't remember lists off the top of my head so I can't give specific examples.
I always thought a somewhat simple way to fix Joker was to leave everything mostly the same, but remove Arsene's special effects. However, he can use shield + special (like inkling) to switch to a different persona. Only the side special and down special would be different. I imagine the side specials wouldn't be too different from each other, just with ice, fire, etc. but enough to make them stand out (such as where the attack originates and the effect it applies when hit). The down special could be used for buffs or defensive moves. Best of both worlds, I feel.
@@RoomFiller Joker feels like Sakurai looked at how combo heavy Joker can be in his animations in Persona 5, and reduced him to mostly that. Mostly because Sakurai didn't want joker to be too similar to Hero since their both RPG characters.
You dont even need to use your head, is this simple: down special changes persona, side special changes the magic spell depending on the persona, and the up special arsene is always available but is weaker, neutral special his still gun but it changes properties and damage dependin on the persona..... You can put at least 4 to 6 personas with that kit in mind. Or you could change every normal with a persona, that would make..... Almost 18 more personas
It's a strange case of "Joker isn't a Megaten rep, He's a P5 rep". Diddy Kong doesn't have much Country inspiration, like with the Animal buddies, but that doesn't make him any less a cool addition. Joker here is the same
This is a pretty awesome idea if only smash was on PC so we could have mods Edit: I also think the P1 saving rooms with the Pink tree could be a cool Idea for a stage
cool video id like it if they made a reference to p5's stealth by making jokers dodge him turning into a ball of shadow briefly as he did in persona 5. and maybe a taunt of joker checking his phone too. I don't agree that the final smash should be replaced though, all-out attack is a pretty cool final smash and is the perfect thing to have for someone from the persona series. sinful shell is too spoiler imo (like shulk's fs)
![ILLSLICK X YOUNGOHM - We're The same [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yUJNkobYR0E/mqdefault.jpg)
![NISAMANEE - TADA (ท้าดา) [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/hcQHEPMmJpU/mqdefault.jpg)
the thing is joker is not intended to be a SMT representative, joker himself is only meant to represent persona 5. just look at the series icon that the developers chose, the phantom thieves logo.
The rebellion gauge is literally the embodiment of the themes of Persona 5
Well yeah but this is a video made as a what if he was representing the whole franchise
no offence, last I checked in Persona 5 Arsene was quickly fused away cuz he was garbage, ofc they couldn't pick satanael, but even then, They could just have kinda did what they did with Demi-Fiend when he became a boss in Digital Devil Saga, they didn't just give him Pixie, they gave him a full roster, obviously to a lesser degree, but genuinely could have made a team with the mascot characters of the series, at the very least, they literally ignored the wild card, the main fundation of the series, wasted opportunity if you ask me.
@@pigeonleader doesn't excuse the fact that his arguments are based on that
@@OpossumPartyy Smash bros wasn't made with representation first, it was made to be accessible. With gaming icons being added because he can.
Sometimes Sakurai feels that a character in their games is so over powered that in order for them to be balanced for Smash, they have to be simplified. If Joker had everything from Persona 5, It would be Bayonetta in Smash 4 but even worse. Characters like Steve and R.O.B don't need be simplified cause their not as fast as Joker.
2:21 - Apparently he did. To his deepest regret, he managed miss Yusuke as the only Confidant he failed to max out.
F
He thought he couldn’t add joker but PQ2 got his invitation
how do people max out every confidant??
@@ommnon With very good time management and beelining to do Kawakami first (her Rank 10 gives you access to evenings if you did stuff during daytime).
@@ommnon Either multiple playthroughs or following a guide lol
For your proposed Velvet Room stage, would it be one of those stages that changes its layout? Like the layout could change to represent each iteration of the Velvet Room.
probably, since he wants the whole series to be better represented
Here’s an idea, maybe it could kind of be like Gamer where the characters are all shrunk down on a table in the various velvet rooms, and whichever velvet room is in the background can show some characters from that game
@@dgsparrow8288 aint too shabby of a idea
Maybe do it similar to soras stage where as u go on u go from the persona 1 room to Persona 2 velvet room with piano and all that then persona 3's elevator with Elizabeth bullying theo in back to persona 4 arenas variation of the velvet room cause it be kinda hard to get the velvet limo working right to P5's jail with the execution materials OR maybe similar to being on the table but background changes to each game whilst u fight shrunk down on table amongst the tarot cards with the most iconic of each game along side igor such as P3 change becomes Elizabeth by igor or P4 being Elizabeth
Yeah, like the minecraft world stage. That'd be cool
I honestly already love Joker in smash. He just feels so stylish and flashy, nimble and fast like he is in p5, and while the arsene mechanic isn’t that faithful, it’s still a great mechanic that adds a lot of tension and hype to the game. Joker is honestly one of my favourite characters in the game.
same
I mean there are some characters Final Smashes & mechanics in Smash aren’t that faithful to their games, such as Link’s Triforce Slash & some of Shulk’s Monado Arts.
@@Lone_Wolf_Hero *Ah yes I love monado buster the art that increases my damage and its purple and totally isn't just a giant slash*
@@Lone_Wolf_Hero That's because some character can't work as a one to one translation, so changes have to be made. With Mega man it work because it's a 2d character in a 2d game.
A turn based RPG character that's a bit tricker.
2:21 funny story, sakurai stated in a interview for joker’s release that he has actually played every single persona game from 1-5 when they released, he probably made joker work like this due to balancing
Balance and because nobody cares about the other demons because arsene is the icok of the game
@@donbototo5068 I don't think anyone like Arsane this much
@@الدجاجالقيمر we do like Arsene, actually.
@@donbototo5068 you know that a lot of people just ended up fusing away arsene in the beginning of the game. Also Joker is the only megaten rep in smash, a franchise that created the monster taming genre, there should be demons in his arsenal but they didn't.
@@masstrash4609Ah yes, I’d love to murder Kirby using Mara.
Tbh, I think you're looking at this wrong. Joker wasn't meant to represent the mechanics of SMT, He was meant to represent the themes and style of Persona 5 specifically.
All of his nimble and acrobatic movements showcase his proficiency as a thief, the Rebellion Gauge may not be in the actual series anywhere, but it's an allegory for the process of awakening ones Persona in P5 in the first place. After a long period of time getting beaten down, you rebel and come out stronger, ready to crush the thing that was oppressing you.
Representing the Wild Card certainly would have been cool, But with the Rebellion Gauge already giving him basically two versions of his moveset, And switching between those constantly mid-match, it may have just been too complicated. Maybe they could have had a few Personas slip in during certain moves, but keeping it to Arsene makes sense, It's what basically every other crossover of him does.
The specials are where the more direct references the mechanics are. The Grappling Hook directly referencing the Royal Grappling Hook (despite Smash coming out of year earlier I'm sure it was referencing Royal behind the scenes), Eiha vs Eigaon Representing Tiers of moves (The curse is unique but it makes them more interesting then just projectiles), Gun is pretty direct, and even references the Down Shot with the Dodges, and the fact that they aren't real bullets by making them disjointed hitboxes instead of projectiles, and Tetrakarn and Makarakarn work effectively exactly like they do in P5. And of course the All-out Attack was pretty much ported.
Bottomline Joker is by nature a lot more abstract than a lot of other character's representation, And you're free to not like that, but to say that he's a bad representation of his home series? I vehemently disagree. Not only because representing all of SMT was never even his job in the first place (Persona is basically a sister series at this point anyway), but he does represent the essence of his game extremely well, even with the liberties they took.
I definitely would like a more traditional SMT rep for the mechanics themselves, but I don't think that had to be Joker specifically. Though I do love the moveset you presented. And would love for something like it to get into a Smash game in the future.
This comment vibes with me so hard. Literally everything you said is everything I was thinking, bro, XD
@@AJkingwing I agree heavily especially since P5 Dropped the SMT name in its title it makes 5 and the persona series going forward its own thing
@@silverwalker2934 I feel a SMT moveset would be too similar to Hero or Robin, because those characters are what happens when you have an RPG character be a one to one translation in Smash.
I think that joker’s move set and animations do a pretty good job of representing him as a character, but like you said not the franchise as a whole.
In order to balance him out why not keep the rebellion gage, then once it’s full, allow him to equip a persona. If we go with the menu idea, make it so your stuck with the persona you choose until the meter drains. Otherwise nix the menu and make em hot swappable like Pokémon trainer.
The velvet room would definitely be a better stage, or if mementos is kept it’s forms should change between Tartarus, the Tv World, Calpas, ext.
I think all-out attacks were the right choice for this game and implemented really well with the custom battle end screen. Smash 6 should be far enough out from p5 switch that spoilers become less of an issue so sinful shell would be awesome.
But at the same time, It's ATLUS and You know how butthurt They can get about spoilers (which is understandable because They want People to experience Their games Themselves and also money)
Mementos is a very boring stage pick. Everyone thought it would’ve been the iconic casino but now that you’ve mentioned the Velvet room I think that would’ve been the best choice.
My disappointment is that the background doesn't change with the music, like with persona 4 musoc have TV sets and mountains in the back, persona 3 have tartarus and the moon. But they just get the mementos map in blue or yellow.
no it's not? It's literally the most iconic p5 location
I actually think that his neutral special for Arsene should stay as gun since the move Double Shot is in P5R. Or make it heavier but laggier shots as One-Shot Kill or Riot Gun.
Do anything you want, just don’t make it another warlock punch
I think this moveset would make for a great workshop character in Rivals of Aether, but I think that a lot of characters in smash don't really represent their series as much as they could to try and make a more uniform feeling game where most characters are understandable. The fire emblem cast and donkey kong are notable here. I do think that their is plenty of room for improvement with joker but a 4 way stance change that changes all your special feels more like a player made workshop character. I suppose this makes sense as, well, this moveset is player made.
Samus 😥
@@leofont6026 Samus is meant to feel limited to reference how powerfulness Samus felt in the beginning of Super Metroid while adding moves from late game Super Metroid. Simply making Samus exactly as powerful as late game Super Metroid would be very broken.
Someone recently made Joker in the Rivals workshop and he’s fun to play.
Nintendo could have delivered the earth and the heavens to nyarly on jokers moveset and he'd still be like "you forgot the stars stupid ass"
I absolutely love the idea of implementing the tarot cards and Persona Break from P4Arena that's a really cool way to balance being able to use so many different Personas
I actually have a really big soft spot for joker’s moveset in smash, mostly because it feels like a reference to the P4 arena series of games with particular references like up tilt to one of yosuke’s normals and the awakening gimmick in general.However, it obviously isn’t indicative of the actual series, so I’ve been waiting for a video like this.
With so many Smash clones already, it would be great to develop one for Persona only. The possibilities are endless. Fans would love it and Atlus could plan so many costume DLCs that even Dead or Alive creators would be impressed.
1:30 Hey, at least we can now make the joke of "Yuu are not Mii!".
Personally I think his moveset is perfect. The only thing I can think of to make it better would be to have 4 other protags from the other games instead of the simple color change alts (naoya, tatsuya, makoto, yu). It would be kind of like hero or bowser jr where they have other characters as alts. The model of arsene could even change to the other starting personas
It would be funny to see yuu holding a gun 😆
i feel like that wouldnt work all that well since the first personas of each character dont have the same moves
I think a color change to the other persona pro tags would be best and a change to arsenes color scheme would also change to fit them but you couldn’t exactly do a complete swap like that since the personas don’t learn the same moves. Or have wings
@@mauriciomarquez3874 you could just replace eiga with like a fire or electric move for example and still have it do the same thing
@@jacksonbrickmedia939The issue is when you get into the smash attacks where Arsene uses claws that notably Orpheus and Izanagi doesn’t have. We also need to remember that Izanagi uses a lance/sword weapon. It’s not as simple as a model swap and some minor changes, it would require a completely overhaul for each protags animations. We also need to bear in mind that Yu uses swords and Door-kun never uses a dagger. At that point you’d be better off making them separate characters altogether.
9:33 i get the idea and its cool and all but its really just spoilers for satanael which may seem silly because its been 6 years since the game came out but i think you should keep the all-out attack because its an integral part of the game and as you said, joker is a walking ad for P5, so people would want to try the game and eventually try the other persona games and then smt games
well if smash 6 did include that which is coming in a not so closer timeline.
persona 5 is gonna be on almost every platform as well, so everyone could experience the adventure too.
I mean, didn't they update Shulk's final smash even though the addition was kind of spoilery? Never played Xenoblade so I have no idea how impactful that is.
@@SoulBro12 Have played Xenoblade here, it's definitely an impactful spoiler
@@jawg0 Eh... It's a mid spoiler. It's not really impactful considering the role they play and what they do during the story.
@@lunamaster123 It's still a pretty big twist, and best experienced when not spoiled, I guess it's still not the WORST possible Xenoblade spoiler tho
I always liked the idea of an SMT rep having Pixie, Jack Frost, and Cerberus instead of Jack O'Lantern. It's one of the oldest demons in the franchise, showing up even earlier than Jack Frost. I think it would be a bit more interesting visually as well.
i feel like his move set in smash is more so to represent persona 5's aesthetic rather than to represent the persona series as a whole
As much as I love playing as Joker in Smash, I feel what you did for him here would be better to represent the entire franchise he comes from. If they ever were to release another SMT character into Smash, I feel their moveset should be similar to yours.
When Joker was announced I was kind of disappointed to see that he didn't have anything related to the wild card. What I wanted was something to similar to what you described. Joker has multiple personas and they all have their own set of specials. But, I realize that is insane amount of work for 1 character. That's 2 or more models each with their own set of animations,audio, and special effects. Not to mention scripting all the specials, testing them for bugs, and balancing them all for multiple patches. If I were to redo Joker, I'd probably give each special move and smash attack a different persona. It's probably still a lot animations(and other stuff) to make, but it's probably more feasible to make and balance than adding 4 different sets of special moves to one character.
That’s why they reuse assets
@@searchforzepuncake6592 even reusing assets that still a lot of work for 1 character.
@@jetstreamsham4968 Smash bros wasn't made with representation first, it was made to be accessible. With gaming icons being added because he can.
Sometimes Sakurai feels that a character in their games is so over powered that in order for them to be balanced for Smash, they have to be simplified. If Joker had everything from Persona 5, It would be Bayonetta in Smash 4 but even worse. Characters like Steve and R.O.B don't need be simplified cause their not as fast as Joker.
7:15
I think Pixie should not only have a very long time limit, but she can only cas Dia for a certain amount of times like hero's heal for example. This in my case makes Joker a lot less painful to approach since you could theoretically just camp the entire game in not only in tournament, but also in online play.
Also I think randomly getting a persona might be a lot better for 2 reasons, one it gives more spice to joker, two so the person doesn't choose the best persona out of the 4
There are certainly more characters that deserve a complete overhaul in Smash to fit their series (Ganondorf) but Joker is definitely one of them.
donkey Kong too
@@-aexc- Dk in Smash is meant to represent the Arcade game first then add Country movies like the Dixie's helicopter. That way Dk can reference all his games.
Joker definitely doesn't need a overhaul
“Feels like he’s just there to advertise Persona 5” sounds like something atlus would do
While also disregarding the point of smash
@@dhans9662 Smash was mad for representation first, it was made because Sakurai wanted to make a fighting game that was more accessible then King of Fighters 95.
Kinda just sounds like you don’t understand smash very well. Compared to a lot of other characters and franchises, Joker received heaps of care and attention and he’s also literally one of the best characters in the roster. Another thing to point out is that he’s supposed to represent Persona 5 and Persona 5 alone. Sure they threw in references to 3 and 4 but that’s more something they didn’t have to do, but chose to because again, heaps of love and care. Also, how can you ask Sakurai if he’s played the game when he literally designed the menus after P5’s UI. You just seem kinda salty that you didn’t get everything you specifically wanted. Joker isn’t the only character they had to focus on.
joker should have an unsummon move if you don't wanna use a persona. I think shield + B or even a taunt where he puts the mask back on will do the trick
hi👋maddon🙂
@@livingdoubt54 lol hi david
If they added Demifiend, he could be like a heavier Joker. Using many end-game demons, but his attacks being more slow but rewarding to hit. One cool idea I had was for Demi to have Charge, which makes him stay still for 2-4 seconds, but his next smash attack is doubled the damage.
Of course he would shoot a goddess with a demon lord XD
bro if imma keep it real it sounds like you just want an smt character 💀
Honestly I'd imagined a what if instead of Joker, why not they add Demi-fiend from Nocturne? It would be great since it's not only representating SMT but also it's whole franchise.
True or they could add Jack Frost since Jack Frost is the mascot of the entire Megami Tensei Franchise
@@oni91119 Arsene may have been chosen because he has wings which can help with platforming.
@Orange Slash he could have 3 personas at the very least like pixie and jack frost and pixie both are which his beginner persona's and arsene his main
@@oni91119 What makes Shulk great is for every state increase there is a downside. For example, Smash art means that Shulk can kO opponents in one hit, but it also makes it easier for opponents to kill him😳. It's called risk and reward. What would be the downside of summing Jack or Pixie??? Without any risk, Joker having everything could make him overpowered. So if Sakurai can't figure out how to balance an overpowered character, he simplifies them (to the extreme).
To Sakurai balance is more important, then representation.
@Orange Slash this is why i said pixie or jack frost would be fine, even though i think jack frost would be worth more since it makes sense. But worrying about risk and reward in smash is like the least thing you could do when rng litterally exists and characters like hero and kazuya exists which is kinda ironic. Joker wouldn't really feel out of place tbh, plus i chose pixie and jack frost for obvious reasons given they're pretty weak in the games
I never watch videos like these from the actual smash community bc they feel too pie in the sky but this was honestly a really reasonable take on what they do all the time. I liked how you used existing moves to demonstrate what your proposed changes would be like, as it helped me understand better since I only casually play smash from time to time
Honestly, I quite liked Joker's moveset. I don't mind him just having Arséne (besides given how many people do Arséne-only runs that's even more accurate) and I don't think every character needs to resemble their original characters to a T. If that were the case we wouldn't have the single most iconic move in the entire franchise.
Funnily enough, out of all the DLC characters, Joker is almost the most experimental given how not very experimental he is. Like they were testing the waters with what they could do with a DLC characters before following up with Hero's shopping list of spells, Kazuya's manifesto of a move list, and Steve.
With that said, I do really like what you came up with, hell if you're going with this kind of rework, go all the way and have each Persona affect his stats, like movement speed, damage of his normals and throws, and maybe even his knockback resistance. Just a couple of slight nitpicks that, for one I'd go with the Dyne-tier spells (Joker might as well bright his A-game), and for two, I don't think the Sinful Shell animation should bother with Yaldabaoth. Just have Satanael nuke his opponent and be done with it lol.
Also Mementos gives me a headache and I'd gladly replace it with the Velvet Room. Also also more SMT references are always welcome.
I think it’s an interesting idea I just think it would be way too insane and make joker so ungodly diverse that it would be insane trying to fight him
I was pretty much alright with how Joker turned out in Smash, but if they were to add, say, Demi-fiend, I'd definitely want them to spend a lot of time making sure he feels like he does in his own game (slow, heavy, all his specials involve summoning different demons, etc).
If/when there's a Smash 6, I'd hope for a better overall Megaten character since Atlus/Sega will probably be one of the easier 3rd party partners to bring back. If Joker returned and stayed as-is, but they added Demi-Fiend to be the vehicle for the Demons and other stuff getting some spotlight it would be cool.
It's been a year since this video came out and it's actually really cool. I do have some ideas that would better represent the persona games, as having only the early game personas are kinda unoriginal (no offense).
I personally would change Arsene's specials, and switch out Jack Frost and Pyro Jack for other personas that are more diverse and from other mythologies still recognizable and from later in the game rather than the starting point (balanced, of course).
I would replace them with Matador and Cu Chulainn. I chose them to each fit a role. A physical persona which specializes in attacks and a gimmicky persona which utilizes more magic. They may not fit, but who knows, maybe the moveset will stick but the personas change depending on costume to better fit the characters. I considered adding Black Frost, but 4 personas are already a lot to juggle for a player. 5 would be nice for a little more representation, but wouldn't be as easy to add on.
I would give each persona a "trait" that sticks with Joker, like in Royal (disclaimer: they do NOT work the same way, and are more fitting of their "roles") Arsene's would be the fact that the tarot cards restore faster when he is active. Also, Arsene's max tarot cards would be 5 instead of 4. Switching to another persona removes a card, but it stays at 4 afterward.
Arsene actually have Eiha, but Tetrakarn/Makarakarn would be removed in favor of Dream Needle, a light jab-like attack that can cause enemies to fall asleep. Weak on it's own, but can be an ace in the hole if an enemy is at high percentage.
Next would be Pixie's changes, which are minimal. In order to balance Dia, I would make Dia use up the tarot cards instead of having a cooldown. That way, if you play your cards right, you can use up all 4 of your tarot cards to heal 55%, but you can't do anything substantial from that point onward due to persona break.
Pixie's trait makes Joker a little faster and lighter, like a weight removal and speed increase. Noticable, but not broken.
Next is Matador. Matador's up special would be Magaru, and it can lift Joker up into the air like Hero's up special (the canonical reason for this is this is Joker's matador that he fused for caroline and justine). The winds would stretch more outward than Hero's up special, though. His side special would be Swift Strike, where Matador whips out his cloth and does decent damage to enemies in that direction. Neutral special would be Psio, shooting balls of psychokinetic energy that do extra damage and knockback to fighters who are shielding, fighters who are dizzy, and fighters who are asleep.
His trait would be resistance to status skills, like lessened shield break and lesser sleep time, and also makes it easier to mash out of those effects.
Finally is Cu Chulainn, a physical persona. Up special would be a leap, followed by his lance stabbing downwards, like Pyra's up special. Side special is One-Shot Kill, where Joker aims his gun, and Cu Chulainn will stab his spear at the same time Joker fires, creating a dramatic bullet effect thing. Powerful, but slow buildup. Joker's neutral special would be Charge/Concentrate, where holding the button would grant him an orange aura that powers up his next move, like Hero's Psyche Up (if it's a magic attack that is powered up, it will have blue effects like Arsene's actual attacks in smash). Charge increases damage, knockback, and decreases starting frames of an attack. Concentrate upgrades magic skills to a more powerful version (Eiha to Eigaon, Psio to Mapsio [more balls], Zio to Ziodyne [like robin], Magaru to Garula [increases height, less horizontal damage]) Pressing the B button again makes Cu Chulainn perform a devastating upwards slash (Brave Blade), but the Charge could be used on any attack. Once Charge has been used, you can only Charge again after Brave Blade is used.
Cu Chulainn's trait is less stun time and reduced knockback after taking a hit, making it easier to counter and react to an opponent. He also gives Joker's normal attacks increased damage, but by one or two percent.
I designed this moveset to complement itself well. For example, Arsene can make enemies sleep, and Matador can follow up with it. Or Cu Chulainn can Concentrate, and Pixie can Ziodyne or Arsene can Eigaon.
If it wasn’t for Smash I never would’ve gotten into Persona.
1:33 Simply dad?
Yeah only the down throw is a good change, also he is not a SMT rep, or a Persona rep, he is a Persona 5 rep with a couple p3&p4 things thrown in
Personally I feel like a really good change for his alts would be adding the p4 and p3 protagonist with him, giving them one alt each, then give the original p1 and p2 characters
Sinful shell would be spoiling so many little kids but DAMN IT WOULD BE SO COOL.
Love the P4U addition, this would be a great persona character
One thing I've noted is that several RPG protagonists are based on their most marketable version rather than builds a player would use. In Marth's case it makes sense because each game he stars in gives him two attack animations, unlike Roy and Chrom having more due to FE13 special skills and being able to promote.
The first major noticeable case of this was Shulk. The original Xenoblade didn't have the option to change your appearance without changing your stats, so there's no way the average player would leave the red jacket own, on top of the Monado changing shape several times throughout the story.
Joker is the case talked about here, he only uses Arsene because it's the starter Persona. This particular case was handwaved with "who cares? Arsene is awesome!"
The Hero is an odd case in that they were made to represent a single entity when many of them have moves that the rest can't learn or can use other weapons/armour. Starting with The Luminary, he has the Supreme Sword of Light and the hero's shield but doesn't get an outfit based on Erdwin's outfit, nor does he put his Zweihander skills to the test.
Arusu is an odd case in that there isn't a single piece of equipment in his game that matches the unique outfit shown in both his artwork or Smash. He doesn't get an outfit based on the armor commonly associated with Erdrick (Auroral Armor and Ortega's Helmet) and doesn't get to show his proficiency with many weapons.
Solo's sprite has always bothered me because it shows him wearing the Zenithian Helmet that he doesn't have when he starts out but not the rest of the Zenithian equipment. Seeing this reflected in Smash brothers me once again. And again, he doesn't get to show off his wide range of weapons because he has to share the spotlight with the rest.
Last but not least, there's Eight. He has this really cool Dragovian armor he doesn't get a costume for and despite being the only character in his game to have a lance skillset, he doesn't get to show any unique lance moves.
Fortunately, those were the last and I think Byleth, the Aegis and Sora all represent their moves really well.
While I loved joker in persona 5, it still feel weird that no other shin megami tensei represtion despite most shin megami tensei being in Nintendo console, while persona games are in Sony one(expect for the spin-off), I guess you can said joker respesnt megmai tensei like how cloud respent final fanasty, but still feels weird.
i think this idea for a newly revised joker moveset is cool, and i like the new ideas. But i do think Joker’s current set is fine- ( i really do like the edition too him using the grappling hook more, since Smash the the hook first before P5R ) but aside from that, I like the only persona being used is Arsene. In the actual game you 9 times out of 10 aren’t even gonna use Arsene so i feel like in this game, You can sacrifice a bit of originality of the P5 wild card antic for this since Arsene is outclass but looks really cool and draws the eyes in. ( also that last reason is more selfish cause arsene just happens to be my favorite persona )
I'm honestly kinda impressed with this joker concept however it would be cool to see other personas such as Yoshitsune or Surt to use a move like ragnarok or hassou tobi. I just think the animations would look pretty cool.
Honestly Demi-Fiend is probably best as a MegaTen franchise rep, especially since he's the go-to guy Atlus uses to bring back for Superbosses (DDS 1, Imagine and 5)
For his dash attack, him punching in a similar animation as the regular attack (even sliding for more accuracy) is probably the first thing I could think off, for the rest of his regulars, probably a roundhouse kick for his Forward Smash (the animation for Xeros-Beat in DDS Avatar Tuner), Javelin Rain for his Up Smash and Gaea Rage for his Down Smash. Rest could be just regular punches and kicks.
For his Neutral Special, he could charge a shot in a similar way to Samus, where he will use Divine Shot at low charge, Spiral Viper at medium charge, and Freikugel at full. His side special will have him use Magma Axis, a fire beam that can be angled similar to R.O.B's laser. His Down Special will have him open a menu like Hero's, here he can select one of his more iconic demons to use a skill: Tetra/Makarakarn for Girimekhala, Fire Breath for Cerberus, Glacial Blast for Titania, Maziodyne for Thor, and Megidolaon for Pixie. He cannot summon the same demon again until he has used all of them previously. Up Special would be him summoning a random demon from his Down Special pool, which will cast Liftoma on him, moving him upwards.
i mean, Yu can also use any persona at will in P4, but in P4A he only ever uses Izanagi in his combos for not just save alot of dev time, but for balancing reasons (and the fact they are the first personas you ever get, sooo yeah....it adds to that representation bit), why do you think Pokemon Trainer only has 3 pokemon out of the nearly 1000 pokemons to choose from?
Honestly, I had issue with this because of how it's kinda just shoving a bunch of references somewhat haphazardly into a character and the suggestions are busted,, Jack Frost alone would be a nightmare if we're under the idea that the main moveset is relatively the same, but I might've found a way to make it feel less jank, if they reimplemented customs and had Joker equip different Persona instead of regular ass customs like Smash 4.
The changes could then have both the active "Change special properties" but then each Persona has a secondary passive buff like Arsene buffs your Smash attacks but Jack Frost might make you take less knockback and you're slower but you get freezing and the random buff for your down special, Pixie makes you lighter, and I'm talking Jigglypuff light, in exchange for your heals. Not a perfect solution or completely thought out but something along those lines would probably be better.
Last thing, I think spoilers in final smashes are a no-no, looking at you Shulk.
Actually, Sakurai did a full clear playthrough of P5 only missing Yusuke's max social link (Sugita was upset lol). I do think his moveset is a little boring, but it could totally be back to licensing these designs sadly. Like each piece of art might have its own legal hurdles.
"He has to be one of the worst representation in Smash Ultimate."
Ganondorf is leagues worse, yeah.
I want a Hero and Trainer hybrid-style moveset for the P4 protag. He's the most fitting character for having an ensemble of summons/skills.
Speaking of Demi Fiend as a Rep in Smash, I came up with this Moveset one day while I was Board. It's a Long read, so be warned.
Weight class: Above average (only slightly heavier than Mario and Corrin).
Jab: A simple 3 hit jab, Starting with a Hook punch from one arm, followed by a Gut punch from his other arm, then ends it with a simple roundhouse kick.
Dash attack: Lunge. A normally weak attack in SMT, but actually does solid damage and knockback, sort of like Ganondorf's Dash attack.
Side tilt: Uses his Demon blade to do a quick Horizontal slash.
Up Tilt: A fast, but average damage uppercut, good as a sort of Anti air and can combo early on.
Down Tilt: A quick leg sweep that pops foes into the air.
F-Smash: Heat Wave, basically acts like Pyra's F-Smash, but with less startup.
Up Smash: Magma Axis, gathers Firey energy in his hands, then raises them skyward to create a stream of fire going skyward, with about as much reach as Palutena's Up smash.
Down Smash: Gaea Rage, Does a Battle cry motion that causes the ground around Demi Fiend to erupt with demonic energies. Best for hitting grounded opponents, but is the Strongest of Demi Fiend's Smash attacks.
N-Air: The common Lingering kick Nair (only because I couldn't think of anything else, you know how this type of move works).
F-Air: A fast, but hard hitting Straight punch.
B-Air: A double Backwards kick like Bowser's Back air.
Up Air: A Crescent moon kick like Falcon's or Ganon's up air.
Down air: A powerful Axe kick that can spike foes if his by the Sweet spot, which is Demi Fiend's foot as he brings it downward.
Grabs with one arm.
Pummel: Decks the foe in the face using his free arm.
Forward throw: Slams them into the ground so hard they bounce forward, Pixie then shows up afterwards to cast Zio on the victim before launching them away.
Back throw: Basically the same as the forward throw, but this time Jack Frost decides to assist by freezing the foe, which can lead into free extra damage or even combos.
Up throw: Delivers a swift uppercut. No demon Ally to assist here, it's all Demi Fiend.
Down throw: Girimekhala Appears to smash the foe into the Ground, Burying them.
Neutral Special: Has 3 Varients based on how long you hold the button down for. Cannot store the charge for any of the Varients.
Varient 1: if you only tap the button, you get Divine Shot, which Fires a quick burst of Energy from Demi Fiends hand that doesn't travel far, but is a pretty good get off me tool that can send foes hit by it a fair distance.
Varent 2: if you hold it for 1 or more seconds, but let go before 5 seconds have passed, you get Spiral Viper, which fires a beam from Demi Fiend's forehead that Travels about 2/3 of the length of Final Destination, but is much stronger, and has more knockback.
Varient 3: if you hold the button for a full 5 seconds, you can launch Freikugal, a Devastatingly powerful blast that goes the full screen of Final Destination, is not counted as a projectile so it can't be absorbed or reflected, ignores counters and does ALOT of Shield Damage, and can score potential early KOs, but comes with the most end lag out of all the Varients, and you have to commit fully to using it.
Side Special: Deadly Fury, basically a Stronger version of Mii Brawler's Onslaught, traveling further than said move and it doesn't put you into free fall, but if you don't hit anyone, you can only use it once in mid air.
Up Special: Improvised move, I call it Demonic Ascension, Which is a Combination of Pikachu's Quick attack and Wolf's Fire Wolf up specials.
Down Special: Summon Demon Allies. Demi Fiend summons one of his demon allies from a pool of 6 specific demons that all have their own health pool and behaviors. Demi Fiend can only have one Demon out at a time, the Demon Chosen is Random, and he cannot summon the same Demon ally twice in a row, and once a demon ally is defeated, he has to wait a bit before he can summon them again.
Demon ally 1: Pixie.
Generally stays close to Demi Fiend, Casts spells like Zio (Basically Robin's Arc Thunder), Dia (Hero's Heal) and Megidolon (a Powerful Explosion of energy that can send the foe flying).
Reccommend KOing Quickly, because if she stays alive for too long, she'll cats Recarmdra, which will act as the Special Flag item. Fortunately (for the opponent anyway), she is tied for the Lowest health of all of Demi Fiend's allies, only able to take 35% worth of damage before being KO'd, but she comes back the fastest of Demi Fiend's allies, only taking 8 seconds to respawn. That being said, there will be a 1/16 chance that When you summom Pixie, she will be summoned as SUPER Pixie. This version doesn't have Recarmdra, but DOES have more powerful attacks, including the Devistating Ziodyne, an increased Damage and Knockback Megidolon, and has Diarama as a more potent heal. Super Pixie also takes twice the damage to kill, needing 70% of Damage before she goes down, and if Super Pixie is KO'd Pixie will be out if commision for Longer than normal with a 45 second respawn timer instead of her usual 8.
Demon ally 2: Jack Frost.
Wanders around the Stage aimlessly, only really attacking foes if either attacked himself, or if Demi Fiend is attacked while near him. Uses Ice Breath (Ice Climber's Blizzard), and Bufudyne (which is like PK Freeze) to deal damage and freeze foes. Has the same health as normal Pixie, and takes 10 seconds to respawn.
Demon Ally 3: Cu Chulian.
He basically behaves like a combination of the Alucard and Lyn Assist Trophies, using his Spear either for quick multi hitting damage, or for a Single Powerful strike, usually doing alternating between them. Requires around 50% of Damage before he can be taken out, and requires 18 seconds to respawn.
Demon Ally 4: Parvati.
Sticks close to where she is summoned, unless summoned off stage, then she lands near the edge and sticks close to that spot. Heals for just a little more HP than Pixie's Dia and can also buff Demi Fiend Using Luster Candy, which basically will give Demi Fiend a combination of Manodo Buster, Speed and Shield without their downsides, but Parvati doesn't do anything else. Still Reccommend taking her out asap though, as those Luster Candy buffs can stack up to twice, which means if you're fighting Demi Fiend, that can get out of hand fast. She hasn't got much health though, only being able to take 37% worth of Damage before being KO'd, and also takes 30 seconds to respawn.
Demon Ally 5: Cerberus.
Basically acts like the Pokemon Solgaleo, but he doesn't go away until defeated. Can take 48% damage before being taken out, and takes 25 seconds to respawn.
Demon ally 6: Girimekhala.
Easily the Strongest Summonable Demon I'm giving Demi Fiend aside from Super Pixie, and for good reason.
He hits like a Truck, has ALOT of health, being able to take 120% worth of damage before being KO'd, only takes half damage from physical strikes (referencing Girimekhala's innate Physical resistance without outright making him immune like in the main games. Still R.I.P to physical attackers), and he does not flinch when being hit, unless by elemental, PSI or Magic based projectiles. Girimekhala however is also the Slowest Demon Demi Fiend can summon, not being very Mobile, doesn't really jump all that much, and his attacks have some endlag to them. And if Girimekhala is defeated, he takes a full 45 seconds before he can respawn just like Super Pixie.
Final Smash: Arrival of the Fiends.
A cinematic Final Smash where Demi Fiend fires a quick Freikugal blast that pulls enemies into a Cinematic where they are attacked by the Fiends, Matador, Daisoujo, Hell Biker, White Rider, Red Rider, Black Rider, Pale Rider, Mother Harlot and finally Trumpeter, with it ending with Demi Fiend firing a stronger looking Freikugal. If the Target it at 100% of damage or more when the cinematic ends, it will be an automatic KO.
Taunts:
Up taunt: Pixie shows up and flies around Demi Fiend while he looks at her, much like Toon Link's Side Taunt.
Side Taunt: Jack Frost shows up and jumps around Demi Fiend before the two do a quick bro fist before Jack Frost vanishes.
Down Taunt: Does his Iconic pose we see in his official artwork, and when using Chaotic will in SMT V, with red demonic aura flaring from him.
Victory animations:
1: Does his Signature pose while looking at the camera menecingly.
2: Interacts with one of his 6 demon allies while praising them, then they do a pose (as a fun detail, if Demi Fiend wins a match with one of his demon allies out, the demon in question will be the one in this victory animation).
3: the screen begins to darken before the Camera pans to Demi Fiend and all 6 of his Demon allies, their eyes glowing menecingly in the darkness, Demi Fiend slowly approaching the Camera before the screen fades completely to black.
Honestly if they represented more of MegaTen other than Persona that would be great within itself
I really wish Flynn was a Joker Echo so we could have more MegaTen stuff.
while i want a mainline protag in smash, he would most certainly not be a joker echo lmao
I think the inspiration for the move set might had been from a what if joker was in p4a/p4au with adjusted to fit more along the line of smash bros. Does if fit with the series not really but when you got like a lot of ways to play a "persona game" I guess you can take a few liberties
Joker was so hard to use in Smash as well
Thank Nyarly for a another great video in truth I only found out what persona was because of smash bros when they announced that joker was going to be in smash.
This is very creative but I think a more realistic option would be to have all of the specials utilize a different persona and I think it would flow better rather than choosing from a menu. I also think it would be cool if they added Demi fiend as an echo character and the demons you mentioned would go to him while joker uses Arsene Izanagi Orpheus and Jack Frost so that he can represent persona and Demi fiend can represent mainline MegaTen
Joker just being a stand user doesn't really capture the whole feeling of the wildcard being, well, a wild card, versatile. For music, SMT IV's battle A2 has a nice feel, mechanical rhythm kinda vibes, SMT strange journey battle 2 gives me wrath of the reset bomb vibes, and I'd also personally like SMT DX2's battle theme to be on there. Now I don't really play DX2, but it has boppin music, and mobile game music is in Smash, there's a remix of Gear Up For, which is a track unique to FE Heroes, the fire emblem mobile gacha.
9:36 the eighth skin is actually supposed to represent the summer uniform, I don’t see it but I guess the model devs just didn’t want to create another model to work with the animations
I think the concept is nice, but I think this nerfs Joker quite a lot. Since he doesn’t have access to the limited use Arsene, and his aerials, smash attacks and tilts would all be his standard moves. This would leave him as a slightly stronger Shiek, with the benefit that you can change his specials.
I think the concept you presented could actually continue to his aerials and smash attacks. While the tilts and jab should remain the same, maybe you could assign a different persona to a single direction to his aerials and smash’s (kind of like Byleth).
Arsene would be assigned down, using his wings in the smash attack to hit after Joker’s swipes and give him access to a spike. Pixie would be assigned up, so she would fly up a little bit when Joker throws his dagger and fly along with Joker’s up air.
Jack Frost and Jack’o Lantern would fill the forward smash area, but do different things. Frost could come out after his swing to give Joker access to a double hit smash (kind of like Links), and the Lantern could make his smash attack slower but use his flame breath to give it more range. The former would take up the forward aerial spot, maybe swinging along with Joker, and the latter could take up his back air, which would cause maybe a small explosion after Joker’s swipe.
With all of the Persona’s assigned to a single area, you can even apply one more change: different speeds and damage ranges for each persona. In the games, each Persona has their own stats that they excel at. While you could say that each Persona could be 99 in each stats, I think it would be interesting to have each persona accomplish something different.
Arsene would be the all rounder, keeping Joker’s attacks and speed the same. Pixie would be maybe slightly faster, but have weaker attacks all around. Jack Frost and Jack’o Lantern would make Joker slower, but overall boost his attacks with Frost out while his specials would be boosted with Lanterns.
This not only strengthens his representation by showing the uniqueness of each Persona, but by allowing the player to choose they’re own play style. Not only that, but you now have more of an active reason to change your persona’s around to fit each separate situation. Just like a true Phantom Thief and just like a Wild Card… I think…
Honestly I like the way this sounds, might take the idea if I ever decide to do this for a Rivals of Aether mod
Joker feels just right in Smash, I feel like he's character, feel and style were completely on point. They nailed it. His victory screens are also the coolest in the game. Also, how can you complain about the franchise representation when he basically has 2 extra stages representing P4 and P3.
Personally, I was and still am completely satisfied with this DLC.
I think the competitive scene would be very scared with this Joker running around. Either way nobody cares about the competitive scene so I say this works well to broaden the scope of Persona representation in Smash and I love that.
He did play persona 5. He didn’t want to spoil the game by adding more personas and also made him more simple to play like other smash characters. I do understand your feelings about your character not being fully being represented but do understand how limited smash is.
"do understand how limited smash is"
Meanwhile Hero can use a whole lot of spells they cannot learn, Terry can Power Wave in the air, Snake can ride an Cypher, K Rool uses abilities of his three different personas (lol) from the DKC trilogy and 64, the Belmonts can use different sub items at the same time...
And do I really need to mention Steve and Kazuya here?
@@OniLinkBrazil1993 it was for spoiler reasons. You can always go look at the joker video he made on his release day. Coming after me won’t fix joker. 🤷🏿 Also he was in the first line of dlc terry and the rest were better anyway
@@OniLinkBrazil1993 Remember competitive Smash fans hate Hero because of how inconsistent he is, which is bound to happen when an RPG character is a one to one translation of their games.
Sakurai usually focus more on balance than representation. So he simplifies the characters if they have too much to work with. Steve doesn't need to be simplified because he's very simple on the surface and is slow. Persona 5 is not simple.
@@Litegami give Persona and Smash, some credit, at least jokers friends are in the background. Cloud and Hero don’t have that.
I have to disagree with agilao being the neutral special because come on it's exactly the same as zio, eiga, and bufu so it should be the side special. Also I am very much aware of fire breaths prominence in SMT games, but like.. it's not in persona 5. I would suggest having him cast dazzler for neutral special (since in my perfect world agilao is his side special), which would work like Mario's cape but with bigger range and no ability to reflect
Eh I think his taunts involving Morgana is the least offensive thing
like does it need him? no. but can you think of a good reason not to have him?
Joker's always with Morgana in game like him or not he's a mascot and one of joker's
friends canonically the gang likes him even if other people don't. I say at least keep the one
where he says "looking cool joker"
As for his moveset I save buff him so he can do some significant damage cause like samus it
just feels like he can't deal a killing blow but is light enough to get destroyed at like 50%+ percent by anyone.
Meanwhile I can play mario and dust alot of people at the 40% mark; Maybe I'd add that Arsene's reach would me more
in his kicks, stay out longer and the rebellion gage would be easier to fill out.
As for his final smash I think it's fine as is, remember Switch JUST got royal and it's not even out currently.
That would be a huge spoiler for the game, weather a person wants to play joker or another does. Keeping it
All out attack lives the best climax of the game intact and a surprise for anyone new to P5.
That be like showing Sora showing a big spoiler from kingdom hearts in his final smash. I overall think Joker is fine
if not in need for a buff.
Man who hates Morgana doesn't want Morgana in the taunts.
...this is my shocked face. xP
does anyone like Morgana? I thought you either tolerated or hated him?
@@-aexc- I mean, I personally like Morgana.
@@-aexc- I think Morgana is cute.
first off
i guess no one... saw joker coming?
Also
i think its nice the shadows that turn into mario and the bozos are the mementos shadows!
I think all of the references were limited to outside the main moveset. (All out attack, mementos changing colors, victory screen and music change)
Personally I'm perfectly fine with Joker's moveset as it is right now, especially the detail how all of his specials are items/basic actions from the game when he doesn't have Arsene (like how "Eiha" is actually him snapping his fingers to use a Curse Bomb)
Loved the video and i defiantly agree with joker final smash being santanel. Honestly that should have been his final smash for when he has aresne out by default when he was first release
Agreed with almost everything with the exception of his final smash. Honestly his final smash is good as is. Smash already has a lot of characters whose final smash is just "character casting a huge flashy looking spell". Examples are Sephiroth, Kazuya, Samus and Dark Samus, to a certain degree Sora, Megaman, Palutena and King K Rool and Joker pulling up Satanael would just be more of that. His current final smash not only does it have its own artstyle pulled from the game but its probably the most unique looking final smash in the game since its not just 3d models doing stuff.
Loving the variety of content
I wan to see nyarly make a video talking about the plot of each persona game
His reveal trailer didnt say "Super Smash Bros X SMT", it said "Super Smash Bros X Persona 5". He wasnt meant to represent the ENTIRE SMT series or even the entire persona series.
I liked it so I don’t forget to watch it after school or in lunch
Based
I honestly love this! But i do wish joker could use his gun even when he has a persona out. The gun is so much fun to use in smash and it'd limit the player to only use it when persona break or before commiting to a persona
Finally someone who agrees with me on Joker feeling like an Advertisement for Persona 5.
My idea was to make the jabs bare more resemblance to the 3-hit combo in P5, the tilts are fine as they are. For smash attacks though, I thought it'd be cooler and more practical for Joker to summon personas that use physical skills. Up smash - Summons Siegfried to use Rising Slash, Down smash - Summons Yoshitsune to use either Hassou Tobi, Forward smash - Summons Kali to use Brave Blade. Here's where things get a bit much if they haven't already. Joker's specials enhance when he hits 100%. Gun for Neutral Special is fine but turns into One-shot kill at 100% that shoots 1 piercing projectile, dealing huge damage and knockback but can't be used until he hits 100% again. Side Special summons Jack frost for Bufula that has the same effect as ice climbers down B, turns into Bufudyne at 100% which freezes a second or two longer and deals 7 more percent than bufula. Down Special summons Pixie for Mazionga which sends out 2 electric spheres akin to Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, turns into Maziodyne which has 3 spheres orbit Joker and can be launched in the direction he's facing with additional presses and deal more damage when fired. Up special stays the same but at 100% summons Arsene for Wings of Rebellion. Grab changes to use the grappling hook, down throw changes to Arsene stomping, aerials stay the same except down air changes to spike all the time, dash attack stays the same and the final smash is the All-out Attack but it kills 4% sooner. This was all a LOT but it'd showcase how much Joker uses personas and stuff and stuff
I definitely think that if Joker is going to lose his Gun neutral B then it should be added into other parts of his kit. Maybe his downtilt is a croutching shot in front of him or his down Smash is a weaker version of the knockdown shot from his game.
Other than that, I think that either Pixie or Jack Frost should be replaced. This might be more of a personal thing but they seem to clash with Arsene too much. Instead they should be a P5 party option where each special summons out a different party member. Side B would summon out the Morgana car that Joker can ride. His neutral special should be himself and 3 other party members shooting out in front of them like how they do in some boss fights. His down B could have a Yusuke come out and defend him as a counter. His up B could be the grappling hook here.
I feel like this would fit the image they were going for with Joker a bit better. Namely he's a master thief and he has his tools. From Arsene as a powerhouse, Pyro Jack as the explosives expert, the rest of the Phantom Thieves being his entourage and Jack Frost/Pixie being there.
Interesting ideas but I disagree with your logic of replacing All-out attack being "we see it too much in P5". AoT is a staple of the Persona franchise so it makes sense that the FS is that rather than the one-time cutscene only move Sinful Shell. Even if AoT is used a lot it's still more iconic and memorable than Sinful Shell. As for grappling hook grabbing onto people if I recall correctly that was only in P5R which wasn't out at the time (Royal came out in Oct 2019 in JP (2020 elsewhere), Joker was announced in Dec 2018 & came out in June 2019). Also, like someone else said Joker's representing P5 (and to an extent P4/3 as well), not SMT as a whole, though him using more than one persona would've been nice to see I will admit.
Maybe if a new smash game is made and Joker's included he'll be changed but I doubt it as outside of a few exceptions Sakurai doesn't like changing characters movesets for fear of alienating their players.
They should definitely put digital devil saga music in smash
Knowing how sakurai/nintendo works, IF there's a next smash and joker comes back, they probably are just changing his Up-B to be always Arsene's wings and make the hook a tether grab.
I love almost everything about this. My change would be to have something more akin to the system that Shulk uses but that's just because I want to be able to throw out more personas. The Jacks are great and I love Pixie but it feels very bare bones. I'd be more inclined to pull out some of the more mid to late game demons like King Frost or Thor but that's just my thoughts.
I have no clue why you think they chose Joker to “represent” megaten or even persona. He’s there to represent the P5 only’s lmao. They didn’t even add a Jack Frost spirit, they don’t care about the other games at all
Ya, joker is cool but I woulda liked diff sp moves other than just side b, but I like that he comes off as this fast quick assassin. Just wish it fit in more with his methodical, burst heavy tactician like approach. Mostly cause ya joker looks and acts cool but really his whole thing in the games that makes him special is that he's a Pokemon trainer
Sweet a new Nyarly Video!
I really like this take on Joker even if I do enjoy the character as it is in the game. The only things I would change are 1: switching the neutral and down specials. It would make it a bit more intuitive as he'd essentially play the same way as Shulk with how he changes Monado arts with his neutral special. And 2: Change Pyro Jack for another persona, but I can't really decide on which one. It'd have to be someone that can inherit the moves you gave Pyro Jack without looking too out of place. Again, I like the direction they took in the end, but this moveset makes a lot of sense for a character like Joker, especially when we have characters like Shulk, Hero and Sora to compare him to.
While I did think it would've been neat to see Joker use other personas other than Arsene, I never really was bothered by Joker's moveset at all and didn't think it needed much change BUT with the context of Hero being brought up (Which I had never made the comparison until watching this video), the moveset change DOES make alot of sense!
As for music, I absolutely would've loved to see more tracks from older games, if not from the original PS1 releases then at least in remake form. Maybe one or two SMT tracks would've been nice to hear too, especially since the Velvet Room stage wouldn't have Mementos' (Although VERY cool) colour change gimmick.
a lot of the specials seem really fun, but I feel like one of jokers strong suits in ssbu is his normals when he does have his persona. It's hard for me to think of a balanced way to change his normals based on his persona though
i get a lot of your ideas but i think all the mainline smt representation should be saved for if a mainline protag makes it in (which i hope is the case.)
honestly the only things i personally think joker should change are the following:
his idle stance and animations. make them from persona 5 instead of these nothing animations they gave us.
i agree with what you said about his jab so i wont talk about it here
his neutral special when arsene is out should be the same but change the name to triple down. its always bothered me that its called "gun special" when most of his normal gun attacks already act like how gun special works in p5.
his down taunt should be his showtime prompt in royal (yknow where hes like "lets do this!")
his side taunt should be the pause screen of persona 5
his final smash can be all out attack for basic joker and sinful shell when arsene is out (if ryu and ken can have two final smashes so can he)
his alts should represent the other phantom thieves instead
his stage should have purple and orange variations with persona 1/2 tracks along with it
his spirits should also have more from the persona series
and lastly, his series icon should be that face thats on the back of the tarot cards in most of the persona games instead of the phantom thief logo
The reason Dragon Quest uses four of the hero’s is because they look similar. Persona hero’s are too different in designs.
@@orangeslash1667 i meant just simple color pallettes not full on alts
@@livingdoubt54 actually jokers alts in smash represent the color theme of the persona games. Blue is persona three, yellow is persona four, and purple is persona two.
@@orangeslash1667 purple is persona 1. if youre gonna tell me something i already know at least get it right
@@livingdoubt54 I couldn’t remember if there is a difference between one and two in terms of color theme. It’s not super obvious compared to three and four.
One of the things I’ve noticed in Smash is that if a characters representation jersey meet, Farren, expectation, most likely means that the character is purposely reduced for balance reasons. So if a character in Smash exceeds expectations that means the character is canonically not overpowered???
As much as I like Sinful Shell to be the final smash, most people would be spoiled on the ending of P5 original. I know a lot of people know it, but it is one helluva moment and should be experienced firsthand. I think for the next smash, they should take ques from Persona 5 Strikers and have Morning Star as the final smash. Why? Because that is the strongest Persona one can obtain before fighting any of the final bosses and would give huge SMT representation. Also, for the Jack Bros and Pixie, they could work like Hero from Dragon Quest and have them perform Agi-Agidyne, Bufu-Bufudyne, Zio-Ziodyne, with Arsene having One-shot Kill and Eigaon.
Another idea that'd be more of a "small but nice" change.
Is where his Rebellion Gauge thing stays. But it's not just Arsene. Each smash and special would get it's own Persona. Could make it 1 of each arcana of his team. I can't remember lists off the top of my head so I can't give specific examples.
I always thought a somewhat simple way to fix Joker was to leave everything mostly the same, but remove Arsene's special effects. However, he can use shield + special (like inkling) to switch to a different persona. Only the side special and down special would be different. I imagine the side specials wouldn't be too different from each other, just with ice, fire, etc. but enough to make them stand out (such as where the attack originates and the effect it applies when hit). The down special could be used for buffs or defensive moves. Best of both worlds, I feel.
Perhaps he could also charge the side specials to make them the stronger variants, just without the ability to store them like Hero's neutral special.
@@RoomFiller Joker feels like Sakurai looked at how combo heavy Joker can be in his animations in Persona 5, and reduced him to mostly that. Mostly because Sakurai didn't want joker to be too similar to Hero since their both RPG characters.
9:23 wouldn’t that spoil the ending of p5 ? The current final smash is there because it’s recognised and doesn’t spoil things
You dont even need to use your head, is this simple: down special changes persona, side special changes the magic spell depending on the persona, and the up special arsene is always available but is weaker, neutral special his still gun but it changes properties and damage dependin on the persona..... You can put at least 4 to 6 personas with that kit in mind. Or you could change every normal with a persona, that would make..... Almost 18 more personas
It's a strange case of "Joker isn't a Megaten rep, He's a P5 rep". Diddy Kong doesn't have much Country inspiration, like with the Animal buddies, but that doesn't make him any less a cool addition. Joker here is the same
This is a pretty awesome idea if only smash was on PC so we could have mods
Edit: I also think the P1 saving rooms with the Pink tree could be a cool Idea for a stage
There is a lot of mods for smash ultimate on switch you know
cool video
id like it if they made a reference to p5's stealth by making jokers dodge him turning into a ball of shadow briefly as he did in persona 5. and maybe a taunt of joker checking his phone too.
I don't agree that the final smash should be replaced though, all-out attack is a pretty cool final smash and is the perfect thing to have for someone from the persona series. sinful shell is too spoiler imo (like shulk's fs)
I love xeno games and shulks is abit harder to see because of the speed but sinful shell is too much