As someone who mains Joker, the reasons why people don’t play him as often anymore are, funnily enough, some of the exact reasons why I do. Part of it may be my play style, but reaching that 150% is exhilarating. It might also just be me, but I never feel like that 50% happens all too often for me. Every time I try to pick another “more optimal” character, it just feels off. For me, playing Joker is fun.
For me, Joker is the perfect character for me and fits the type of game I want to play, being one that is extremely fluid and flexible. He can’t do anything the best, but he can do everything good enough to the point where it’s threatening and that’s what I like so much about him
It may just be counterplay. The competive scene was flouded with Jokers, so they had no choice but to learn how to beat Joker. Just like in the beginning Inkling seemed too broken, but now that people got the matchup down, the character seems a little underwhelming.
I think it’s probably up to 50% what you said. But that’s the obvious part of the explanation. I think what this video did so well was to account for all the other nuances
Ironically that's always been one shortcoming Megaten (Persona) struggles with. Popularity for them never comes in steady increments, it's always some ridiculously volatile bursts. It's half the reason Vets can hardly handle the newcomer floods that plague that fandom.
Was it really flooded though? It's not like Melee or Brawl where there's floods of Fox or Meta Knight players in top 8. MKLeo was really the only Joker getting big results and everyone was questioning whether Joker really was the best character or it was just MKLeo's prowess as a player.
@@IronManx70 online yes. friendlies yes. also it doesnt make sense to look at only top 8s when you say "flooded". look at top 128s/groups or even pools. there was such a huge influx of jokers once leo proved his viability it was insane. top 8 in melee has marth, yoshi, fox, pikachu, falco, falcon, puff yet its a fox dominated game and everyone knows the matchup. your point is retarded. people practiced an insane amount against jokers due to mkleo being so unstoppable on him. he was a brick wall people had to learn to play against. so 90% of pros learned the matchup well. anyone else trying to play joker and not being leo just got smoked due to matchup familiarity and everyone being so practiced on it.
Very good points imo. Bottom line, joker is really hard to play well. I can’t in good faith call myself a joker main because half the time I play a dozen other characters I enjoy to ‘take a break’ from joker. Sometimes it’s nice to turn the brain off and play donkey kong ya know
This is so true, even when I was maining Joker I remember I used to basically take breaks from the character to play Lucina ( and sometimes DK too, I swear everyone enjoys playing DK from time to time )
Exactly me. I started playing Joker a while ago and while I feel like I'm decent with him, I would never want to actually main him. I main characters like Kirby and Incineroar for a reason. They're simple, fun and stupid.
As someone who's been playing this character since he's dropped, I completely agree that he's a character who can't autopilot to the extent others can. There's never a moment where you default to one move or tool in neutral or interaction, and his flow chart is more of a clustered web of things than well, a flow chart. He gets tiring to play as well because you want to make the most of your comeback mechanic without throwing it away to the wind, but a lot of the time achieving arsene drastically changes how you and the opponent plays for those ~30 seconds, putting pressure on you to use that time window to gain an edge while your opponent makes that as hard as possible during that time. It's draining.
i think all meter gimmicks play like that. how campy does little mac get when he’s got KO punch? or cloud limit? or terry GO? not to be a shitter but if you don’t like the way the meter plays then don’t play him
@@DJchoppa666 the difference is, Joker is on a timer. Mac is based on if he gets hit, same with Kazuya past a certain percent, Terry keeps his. Cloud is the only other character who's on a timer but he can charge his on own merit. Joker LITERALLY has to make the most of his meter for that stock, 30 seconds or less, or you have to wait to either rebels guard smth again or go next stock. It's not the same as the others, they can play around their meters comfortably.
I think his high ceiling combined with the need for really tight timings to get non arsene kills is the big reason why he is not used much. Same with Peach/Shulk due to their high ceiling as well. I play Wolf/Aegis and it's much easier to swap between those 2 chars for matchups then it is to learn Joker/Peach/Shulk.
His main problem is that despite being very fast and having good frame data, his neutral and combo game isn't as easy as like Mythra, who can just outspeed everyone and nair/tilt people forever. He's got the tools and he's got the combos to do good damage, but they require more precision and skill from the player. Pikachu similarly has amazing tools throughout it's entire kit and can conceivably win almost any interaction if you play perfectly. But you can drop stuff very easily, and even Esam does so quite regularly. Pikachu then explodes from just a few screw ups. Joker isn't that fragile ( he's actually heavier than wolf and his recovery is quite great) but if you want to play a character who's a speedster with disjoints, free neutral, and still has explosive kill power, Aegis is just easier to play consistently with. Easer neutral, easier combo routes, and a much more controlled "finisher". High execution characters are just inherently going to be inconsistent for long term play, and more consistent characters aren't notably worse in this game.
There's a reason Mkleo or Zackray's joker are sick as hell to watch whereas literally everyone playing Mythra now just isn't really that interesting. We always are surprised and in awe what Leo and Zackray can pull out in their combo game and neutral, whereas Mythra is just "haha nair, fair, fair, fair, fair, up B
Joker has mediocre frame data, it's just not awful but when you got characters with -3 aerials and joker only has 2 -5 aerials that are not even -5 half of the time cause of the nature of how they're used you end up with a character that has a very big misconception placed on him and anyone who knows slightly more knowledge and says otherwise gets called bad
@@Mars-pw4iw This is off topic but comment threads keep repeating for me and just wanna know whether or not that's only a me thing because im going fucking CRAZY
@@youngveggies6558 it's off topic and only relevant to the top but doesn't it even matter if it's off topic for the comments, it's on topic for the video and this ain't a reddit thread anyways.
Surprisingly enough, I run into way too many jokers in online smash when he doesn’t perform too well with input lag. Usually I just get jokers who get Arsen and spam B and side B nonstop. But nowadays, it’s not often I see them, just a buncha swordies
LOL I always get Captain Falcon at least twice every 5 Quickplay games. Even in arenas I find him. Fatality and Sean really popularized this guy in Ultimate.
Lag in tournaments is much worse than lag in quickplay, since in quick play all players are from nearby, whereas in tournaments they could be from across the whole country. So he's much more viable on quick play than a tournament.
While I think you're right for the most part, I also think it's just because Leo is not playing him anymore and most people just ride whoever's doing good. Also It's easier to play Byleth than Joker as it's not as mentally exhausting
Even Leo said that Joker was more taxing to play as you have to keep playing him or if you don't you get really sloppy. This in contrast with Byleth (as you said), it's night and day as to see who's easier to main.
Yep. It happened with many characters. Whoever gets dropped by a top player is all of the sudden bad, low tier, or simply not worth it. This community can be very easy to sway.
Byleth and Corrin's rating went way up the moment leo played a game with them in a tournament, when before people considered them below average, with Corrin being considered possibly the worst Swordie.
I think the thing it really boils down to is that back in 2019 when Joker was at his peak, he was really seen as the "king" of the top tiers. But now there is Pyra/Mythra that are just as good as Joker (and in fact, probably a bit better) and they require a lot less grinding time to get to the top, so people tend to go for them over Joker these days. Joker requires real finesse and excellent game sense to use to his maximum potential, and while I'm not saying that playing Pyra/Mythra at the top is "free" (let's be honest, it still takes way more skill than a guy like me could pull off) you will still start seeing the results more quickly and with less effort than you would with Joker. As this video points out, the online era caused people to drop Joker and by the time it ended Pyra/Mythra were starting to show up so nobody picked him back up again.
I mean a funny thing is that Aegis isn't that dominant in top level play anyways. Even like Leo and Sparg0 dropped them. They haven't seriously depressed tournament diversity much either. And if anything the king of general consistency is still Rob. Smash Ultimate really does feel like the game that's so balanced that you can just play the character that feels best for you and you enjoy putting the time into.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa he fell off mid level for the reasons he said. The only ones who really made moves with him were zackray (whos on hiatus) and leo (swapped to byleth to have more fun) who dropped them. Now, Zackrays coming back, Marss picked them up, and some jokers are pushing the character and breaking into high-top level status. I could see a resurgence of the character.
@@zate5355 Zachray kinda plays a lot of characters, although Joker most often. He did seem interested in Shiek before taking his break though if I recall? Marss does seem like he's fully picking up the character, though we'll see if he actually replaces Zero Suit as his main or if Joker is just a secondary. I haven't heard any other notables at top level. The character is definitely very good, but due to the difficulty level, I'd be surprised if they ever grow to be a character with huge representation. Pika has a similar problem, but even more extreme.
Joker is one of my absolute favorite characters to use in Ultimate and he was a character I had hoped would make it into the game. However just because I (and many other's) like him doesn't mean everyone will. These are some of the top reasons I see people not using the character, some contributing to the characters downfall. (1) Some people simply don't like the way he plays or people simply don't like the character himself and/or the game he comes from: This is by far the most common reason I see people disliking any character, so this isn't purely a Joker problem. (2) He's too difficult to master and/or use consistently: While I don't agree that Joker is in the same realm as Peach, Ice Climbers, or Shulk levels of difficulty, I do believe he's an above average level difficulty in how he's used. You not only have to know how to play Arsene Joker (the easier of the 2 to learn), but you also have to learn Base Joker as well. (3) Pyra/Mythra exists/easier top tiers exist: This kinda adds on to the last point a bit. While most people agree that Joker is a top tier character aand potentially the best character in the game, he's too difficult to master and most people can get similar and/or better results with a simpler character. Why use Joker when I can get the same results with characters like Palutena, Lucina, or R.O.B.? One character I see many former Joker mains switching to is Pyra/Mythra. The main reasons is because they're easier to use, have similar gameplay to Joker, Pyra is an on command (but slower) Arsene, and they have better range than Joker. I also see some Joker mains who liked using Base Joker switching to Sheik and Greninja since they're like Base Joker but can get kills more easily (I don't agree with that message for Sheik, but I do believe that's true for Greninja). (4) Joker got nerfed/he isn't as good as he used to be: This argument primarily comes from Arsene mains and amateur Joker's, but it's undeniable that the nerfs did affect Joker at least a tiny bit. (5) Not too many top players use him/MKLeo dropped him: This opinion primarily comes from people who let top players and/or tier lists define their opinions. I personally think it's a pretty weak mindset to let the best players influence you on the character you choose to play, but I digress. It's true that top players are dropping Joker more and more as each day passes, and this does affect how the future metagame plays (nowadays you're seeing characters like Pyra/Mythra, Steve, Sephiroth, Diddy Kong, Sonic, and Cloud be used more often then some of the pre-Covid top tiers). I'm kinda sad that Joker is no longer going to be seen in top placements as often, and it's kinda sad that people are now questioning Joker's legitimacy as a potential candidate for best character in the game. Despite this, I will continue to use Joker (alongside my main, Mewtwo) and I'm hoping to one day see a resurgence of Joker mains (highly unlikely since Pyra/Mythra exists, but a man can dream!)
I feel this way about Marth. I seriously think he's better than Lucina on paper. He has better kill potential, more combo potential, and beats characters Lucina can't and then some. However, his skill ceiling is so high that not many people use him and take the easier option (Lucina or Roy). It doesn't help that people keep trying to play Marth like it's Smash 4, or use Marth like Lucina, when he's his own character. Then Leo drops Marth after using him for... not long... and says he isn't worth it... Now Marth's very disliked because of ONE top player's opinion on a character he didn't even use right lol. It also doesn't help that both ESAM and HungryBox think Marth is mid or low tier simply because Lucina exists and since Ignaize hasn't won a major. It's very ridiculous how characters with high skill ceilings are labeled as low tier unless it's Shiek because Void. This is coming from a huge Leo, HungryBox, and ESAM fan, so no hate to them. I simply don't like how tier lists and top players easily sway the community no matter how wrong they turn out to be. Despite all of this, I still use Marth. I've gotten much better with him and I want to win a tournament with him one day. Of course I have Corrin, Hero, Terry, and Zelda to back me up in more difficult times lol.
I agree that way too many people just ride off top player opinions and tier lists. They’re not always wrong but it’s kinda sad that some people just want to pick “the best” over characters that might suit them better.
@@runaway74 I bet I could lol. He probably wouldn't believe me tho, which is understandable since I haven't done anything at all but flop with Corrin at Momocon XD
You know, everybody complains about how overtly gimmicky and easy all these comeback mechanics and combos work in the game, yet pick all of them over the character whose comeback mechanic actually requires some effort to use.
I'm very impressed by this video. It answered many questions I had about this character. Personally, I used to loathe watching joker in tournaments. Mainly because he DID seem too broken and with no obvious weaknesses. As the viewer, it wasn't interesting or fun to watch him destroy opponents. But now that his usage has decreased, I find that I respect the players who stuck with him more, and I even find myself rooting for him now - especially when he's against a Pyra/Mythra or Steve.
From a spectator's standpoint, while Joker may be difficult to do well with, he sure as hell puts on more of a show than Byleth. That one clip of mkleo resetting maister on the smashville plat with gun to lead into the u-air loops was just awesome
I just really like his movement, he's still one of the only characters where I can see how to capitalize a situation AND actually execute it because the character will just do what I want them to
I still think he is the best (or 2nd) character in the whole game,his combos and kill power are great and even has probably the best mechanic in the game
People still debate wether Joker being 1st and Pikachu being 2nd and vice versa. The community just can't decide who of them is 1st and 2nd so imo they both should just be titled as 1st
"joker is a character that need to change playstyle based on opponent's playstyle" I am surprised that many people just realized it now. from the first time I see it, I already know and I think it is the reason why joker is strong. because it is easy to adapt to every playstyle well, I like the update, it making him balance
I’m probably gonna main this guy if I ever buy the game, I just love the amount of effort that went into him and the fact that they kept the stupid running in a circle thing from the game. The victory screen is just so well done!
Interesting how in all of Ult’s history Leo’s worst placement is 33rd at Umebura with Joker; the only time he’s ever missed top 8 (and by quite a bit at that). Easily the most taxing & difficult character he’s ever made work in this game
Makes sense why people stoped playing him as much he is very hard to learn with all his combos and harder to master.I think his biggest drop was pyra and mythra as there around the same tier but pyra and mythra are much easier to play for beginners.While still being amazing in pro play.Arsene is pretty strong when you have it but without it your kill options are limited with the only good one being back air .While most other highly played characters have easy kill confirms or are easier.Joker is very inconsistent in his play style cause of this power gap between a no joker arsene and with arsene is huge but if your opponent have several ways to make you lose it fast or just wait it out.Just my take on the character he’s very fun and was the first actual dlc character of smash ultimate and I think he’s still good and has aged well as the game progressed.
Id argue joker is much easier in beginner play then aegis. There’s a reason you see way more jokers over there. He’s got projectiles and she doesn’t. That’s huge at that level of play cause beginners struggle with projectile spam.
@@wilburforce8046 I disagree, pyra mythra are easier because they are sword characters with a straight forward kit. Joker is an execution heavy character at higher levels to kill consistently. Most people can also just stall arsene if they don’t want to be killed early.
@@ronniejacksonjr4910 you said for beginners. begginers don't need execution they need spam and raw forward smashes. Joker is better then aegis in that level of play. Stalling is also uber rare in beginners. I would know I play in there.
@@wilburforce8046 I think there's a distinction between beginner player in general and beginner competitive player. Joker is easier for some rando who just plays the game at parties every few months, as he does have projectiles to spam and be annoying with and has a much better recovery. But most people talking about any kind of competitive comparison are talking about beginner competitive, as in like people at least doing decently at local tournaments. At that point you should already be able to deal with at least braindead projectile spam and be able to do basic level combos and neutral and stuff.
have one friend who mains joker, everyone trash-talk him even if he loses because joker is "broken". honestly I get it, it's super hard to have fun against a good joker main, this character has virtually no weakspots if it's played at it best. and at the same time it's hard to have fun playing joker at it maximum potencial, you NEED to work for your kills, it's not a character that will autopilot and just win. so I guess the reason joker isn't that popular it's a combination between not being fun to play or play against (at least in a competitive manner)...
@@Walterhartwellwhite07 Eh, I mean Leo can just use whoever and win most of the time anyways. But I would be surprised if Joker ever rose back to anything above occasional usage.
@@ronniejacksonjr4910 What's interesting is that Byleth is kind of an objectively weaker character and Leo has been forced off Byleth sometimes when faced with a matchup and opponent he doesn't think he can outskill. But not enough people can pressure him enough to actually swap off and if he can outskill, it seems like byleth is basically cruise control for him at this point.
I feel one of the big reasons-mainly amongst casual to intermediate players- is because one: he’s hard to pick up completely, and two: people can often shame you for playing him or at least treat you differently in some way. It’s something I’ve experienced when I tested out joker, and something my friends have also faced.
Joker reminds me a lot of Jin in T7. People say Jin has all the tools he needs to be one of the top tiers, but typically has very few mains and also is lower on tournament tier lists. This is because many characters in T7 have say 10 moves that they will typically use in neutral and each one covers a couple or many options. Jin, on the other hand, has excellent tools but each one has a specific use so it's really like 30 in neutral. There is no auto pilot allowed.
I think thats pefect irony...in the game he is a normal boy who you see how you want him to see and only under pressure he can rebel. Props to Sakurai he surly took his time.
First off, this is a fantastic video as someone who doesn't play Smash competitive I was always curious as to how an RPG protagonist as dynamic as Joker would translate into Smash Bros. What's funny is based on what you've said in the video it seems as though Joker maybe (?) the most adaptable character in the game but requires of skill to master. What's funny is, I think that's actually very fitting for his character but I can also imagine he's one of those characters who if you see him in a Smash Tournament in the hands of a good player, you're going to be paying very close attention.
Nice video. There are many factors as to why no one really plays this character anymore. One of the biggest ones is the amount of work required to see success when you could just play much less mentally taxing characters such as Aegis, Wolf, or Roy for example. And yes, Leo is a huge contributor as to why Joker was so popular in the first place; people (not everyone though) saw that and wanted to imitate it so they could be on top of the competition. Leo drops him, most of the playerbase follows. At least that's what I've taken away from it. I've also seen many players pick him up just for a quick win or out of salt and immediately drop him weeks, if not days later. He takes a deep understanding of the game and discipline to work at higher levels of play and some people just aren't cut out for that tbh. As much as I wanna see more and more Jokers pop up, people just need to play who they love, not 'the best character in the game' (even though he most definitely is if you can consistently play at that 150%). The day I drop Joker is the day he is removed from the game; I love this character and I will strive to push his meta as far as possible.
Omg hi MoSMaje! Your Joker is so good! I've learned a lot about the character and how to improve as him through your videos even though I've been playing him since day 1. Your channel is the place to go for Joker tips and advice and your clips are really stylish as well. Thanks for all the help you've provided that's allowed me to get better!
Great video! I think this applies to a lot of characters and especially pikachu who is NOT CLOSE TO #1 People need to hear this instead of taking everything in a vacuum and ignoring actually relevant situations
This Video was made because Mkleo stopped playing Joker and you had the impression that nobody plays Joker anymore. He was among the most used characters in tournaments by players according to Smash Doods. Joker just doesn't have a lot of really good players who can make it to the big screen apparently. Maybe a lot of casuals who saw Mkleo and go to small tournaments
Something I feel that is not touched on here is the idea of people in the smash community playing characters that Pro Smashers find success on become somehow intrinsically linked to their power in-game. A huge flaw in the vast majority of smash thinking imo is that results mean everything. They contribute to the discussion for sure. But they aren't the be all and end all. MKLeo was instrumental in giving the huge boost to Joker's perceived power rating for a tier list. I main Joker and have since his release. Another things I want to put into the discussion is that Smashers are so quick to complain instead of figuring out counter play (I truly believe if smashers instead of went to their keyboards to complain went to the lab to figure out how to beat something we'd be in the next timeline across from our own. And the whole game would be better for it.) Joker is the type of character where he has the tools to deal with almost any situation and I feel his meta is not being pushed because of the drop off of players post Online era. MOS Maje's channel is one of the only ones out there consistently pushing the meta with options available to Joker. Smash ultimate players are the least likely players of any "pro" game to put any practice in compared to any other esport like League/Melee/any other FGC. They want all the results with no effort so they lean to characters that little skill to master. Joker is one of those characters that get the most out of mastery he's the Riven of this game all of it looks simple enough to play but to actually achieve full effectiveness with all the tools at his disposal is truly difficult maybe not as much as Peach or some other technical characters but he's up there. No matter how much I play him IRL in tournaments or online I find nobody complains about him like they are with Steve/Kazuya/even Falco. He feels fair to fight against and Joker has to earn his openings through good movement and spacing and projectile usage to encourage approaches from opponents. Not saying everything about him is fair he's still a broken character and arsene brings him up a considerable amount but he has small weaknesses without huge upsides.
Throughout all my playtime of smash games, I've never been "omg I gotta learn how to pull off this combo consistently", I just see someone pulling a move and go "Ohhh I gotta react with this" which is why I main Joker, he's good at reacting to anything thrown at him. Joker's combos being a "high skill ceiling" to clear doesn't stop me from just ignoring the ceiling. Although the one thing is you need to have determination to stick with joker, no matter how you're planning to approach playing him.
@@spaceman9396 Did you get fucking destroyed by a Joker main today or something or what exactly compelled you to say "wasted slot" as a reply under several comments here
I think this is why I'm surprisingly good with Joker. Out of all the characters, Joker feels like one that I can consistently play because he's versatile and has a very mixed playstyle.
One of the most overlooked things on Joker is his grab game. Joker has the best combinations of throws in the game imo without question. F throw and back throw are undoubtedly some of the best positioning throws in the game, often allowing Joker to get free stage control or sending your opponent off stage, allowing Joker to abuse the hell out of his edgeguarding and projectiles, even just letting your opponent return to stage for free and letting Arsene charge. Up throw is a great early combo throw that transitions into a great juggle starter at mid to high percents and down throw is a good low and mid percent combo throw that begins killing around 170. Joker's grab game is crazy
I honestly do not think my expience matches most others here. I still see a lot of joker mains at my University and at locals, and have seen them for a long time. I always saw him as one of the most popular characters at a mid-high level, and it has not really gone down from my experience
Same. I think the real reason people drop him is simply because of the reputation he got through leo. In that its the best character or one of the best. So people would rather lose using anyone else then to lose using the best character in the game.
Your points are absolutely perfect and totally understandable to everyone. Though it's a real shame that it's like this. Joker is a character that is so interesting to spectate, especially when being played at a high, that watching Leo go absolutely ham and make top players look like they don't know how to do a forward-smash, was just so enrapturing. Seeing it gone is a real shame, even if an understadable one.
I agree on all this, and while I think Esam is correct in his assessment of Joker. Saying he's like top 2/3, can handle basically any match up, and requires reads to beat effectively. His need for higher execution without Arsene and the sheer exhaustion of playing Joker well constantly is what stops him from dominating the meta game. There are easier options that aren't much worse overall. And you can enact their gameplan without nearly as much mental fatigue. Granted you could argue fighting Joker can be nearly as exhausting as playing him, but when you combine a less mentally taxing character with easier/more tournament friendly kill combos. They're gonna be more appealing for pro players unless they're really dedicated to Joker.
Super neat Video, thank you 💜 Also, thank you for using Sunset Bridge. Easily one of my favorite Unsung Heroes of the P5 soundtrack. I could vibe to this for daaaaaaaays
To put it simply, Leo found his soul main in byleth, dropped joker, and nobody else in the world is good enough to make joker pop like Leo could. I think I comes down to Leo being so good that he was the only one that could use joker’s full kit to a top level extent. Then Leo found byleth, and he is just happier playing byleth so he’ll play them instead. People just don’t see joker because all the Leo fans also dropped that character, and the current joker mains need a few years to get at a level the Leo could play joker at. People need to remember that this game is still young, and most of us are scrubs compared to how people will be in 3-5 years from now. Joker will make a resurgence; mark my words
Yeah, most of the top players in Ultimate are Smash 4 veterans with a few Brawl veterans scattered in between (only Melee veteran I know who plays Ultimate is HBox and I've yet to ever hear of a 64 veteran play Ultimate competitively). Eventually the people who began their competitive careers on Ultimate will start to catch up to the Smash 4 veterans, but I don't think that will happen for another 2-3 years at the minimum. I also agree on the stance regarding MKLeo. People REALLY undermine herd mentality and how much a celebrity (in this case, top/pro Ultimate players) can influence people's thoughts on certain things (in this case, a characters viability). There's a LOT of people who play fighting games and only pick a character based off of a tier list or because a top player used a certain character. I honestly don't blame such people. I find them weak minded, but I understand that these players are just trying to get good as fast as possible so they take the advice of a top player/tier list a little to the extreme (I used to be like this until I one day I just decided to use whichever character I liked). While I don't believe it's the main reason Joker has fell off competitively, I do believe MKLeo had a big influence in how people perceived Joker since he was essentially the only top player who had mastered the character and got consistent results.
I just want to thank you for being the first person ever (that I hear) to bring up the fact that smash is a mentally taxing game. I thought I was weird because my friends could keep playing for 4-7 hours continuously while after 2 or 3 I was done. It’s fun, but I enjoy games that don’t require you to be thinking ALL THE TIME a little more.
When everything feels natural while using the character, you know you've found your perfect character. Joker is definitely that character for me as well. Once you get into the rhythm with his combos and movement, it's an amazing time and extremely satisfying
@@deadjoystickz7173 EXACTLY, the speed the damage and everything just fits with what I want. My only issue is using rebels guard too much and not being patient lol. He isn't a 100% always initiate character and that's my toughest thing. Also rebels guard. I use it way too much, it's just so rewarding when it hits and I never get too angry when I get punished for using it, which happens a lot, I'm more like yeah that was on me.
@@Theblaziken2000 I used to be the same way with Rebel's Guard, though I've mostly adapted to using it to remind the opponent that their combos aren't actually true or if they're being really mashy. I also won't use it for a long time and then throw it out suddenly if my opponent is a bit too eager. It's one of those things you just learn from using Joker, and honestly you can learn so much from using Joker and feeling things out. Always love to see a fellow Joker main that enjoys how he feels and not just because of his tier list placement :)
Joker has been my secondary ever since he came out and I still don't know how to play as him. As a Kirby main trying to pick up a character with a very high skill ceiling, I can't help but feel overwhelmed whenever I play against someone more experienced and yet, I still play Joker simply because I like him
I think that's what he's talking about. If most every pro considers Joker, Pika and Aegis as the top 3 characters, why aren't they the ones that all the pros use to top events? Joker and Pika have superior tools to everyone else, but require more precise performance than other options which is stressful over a long match. Pika is the most extreme of this, as if you screw up he just explodes due to his low weight, and it's why Esam is like it's only rep. Even Aegis has been dropped by Leo and Sparg0 and while they enjoy decent representation and results, they certainly aren't crushing the meta of tournaments under their heels.
This is awesome and captures a lot of the feelings I share about playing joker. I’d seen a few of your videos pop up on my feed and thought they’d be more fluff than substance. Saw praise on Twitter today for this video and finally checked it out. I was pleasantly surprised with the content. Good stuff, subbed.
Joker is my favorite character in the game, with him coming from my favorite series represented in smash and having a very quick play style who can get powerful satisfying moves and reliable projectiles. It does baffle me somewhat how a character this good and this many other miscellaneous things going for him become somewhat unpopular but I think you explained it well.
Even with only 9 videos made, these videos are both well informed and both entertaining to watch. Hope you keep these videos up, these are great, would love to see a video on Ganondorf and how he fell from grace
Joker huh? By this metric, Pikachu is next. People love seeing hard characters be played and awesome custom combos be performed, but at a top level you wanna be able to play as simple as possible. The fact that Joker goes from being 80% as strong to being 150% as strong, when many characters are a solid 110%, is why it's not as worth it to play him. Still super good though Edit: Damn, my percentage analogy actually made it into the video! Great minds think alike
Pikachu is pretty easy to understand and Esam demonstrates it pretty clearly. He's theoretically got a tool for every situation, and amazing combos and kill setups. But they are all hard to do and if you slip up a couple times Pika does just die due to his low weight. Even Esam, who dedicated his life to being the pikachu guy, drops stuff regularly, gets caught out a few times and explodes.
one thing i really hate about people's opinions on joker is when they say the rebellion guage is a comeback mechanic. It's not a comeback mechanic if you use it correctly. You need to actually know how to play joker in order to use it correctly and if you still use it as exclusively a comeback mechanic then you don't actually know how to play joker.
Joker is literally the second most played character in the game. Who the hell makes a video on why no one plays joker despite him being the second most played out of 80+ characters.
I think he is the literal embodiment of “volatile”, it’s either you pack it up and go, or just straight SEND IT. I think of him as more of a quick time strategist, he’s quick to punish but is very strategic in his punish game and approach.
Joker is one of the 3 best characters but he's just hard. One example, when Leo first picked up Joker he actually did worse, barely winning any majors. When he however mastered him... Well u know how it went
I’m a joker main who has been spending a long time trying to improve defensive Joker, a big part of that is footstool out of shield. Joker really struggles to play in shield, majority of the time, you’ll be flicking shield in neutral for parries. When it comes to secondaries or co-mains, you usually want characters who will cover Jokers bad match ups, or has a very different style of the joker you play, which makes it really difficult. Luckily smash ultimate allows you to just play who you want and what you’re comfortable with, but looking for secondaries is also really difficult because of how good Joker can be, that you need to put time into a whole other character to balance your weaknesses.
0:43 Piranha Plant is still the first legitimate DLC character. Just because he was a free bonus for a while and not a part of the pass doesn’t mean he isnt. You download him, he's an entirely new character. I like the vid but this sentiment always bugs me idk
It's so funny, everything you mention in this video is why I love Joker as a character. That skillful, precise gameplay, followed by strong kill moves really makes me adore his kit and style. Though I do think he struggles in certain matchups he really is a solid character
@@spicymeatballs2thespicening he struggles against characters like Pikachu, since he's very tall and mid weight, so he's prone to some combos, and he struggles a lot against characters with a lot of range, like lucina, since his hit boxes are pretty much not disjointed at all until you get Arsene.
The reason nobody plays joker like before is because before MKleo played him so they thought "oh hey he's the best character" so they stopped playing him gradually when Leo stopped maining him (also joker was hard nerfed) and now that MKleo plays Byleth and fans see how good HE is with Byleth now everyone is like "ooooooo, Byleth good, joker back (cause he got nerfed) and Leo doesn't play em). . Or that's what I think, I kinda noticed all of this go down from his rise with joker and so this why I'm saying this
the lack of a "default" move is definitely it. I'm completely new to Smash so not even remotely competitive-level yet. But the reason I hesitate to play Joker is exactly the lack of what I call a brain-dead move. With Sephiroth I do neutral B when in doubt. With Joker, I don't feel safe casually firing the pistol.
Great video. All your points apply to Pika too, I feel. It is those low lows that really keep these characters gated out of tournament top 8s a lot of the time.
As someone who mains as Joker, this video is right on the money. I know to some this may not seem like a lot, but I've put in somewhere around 100+ hours into Joker and I've been playing Smash since the N64 days. The problem is that I play almost entirely off-line. I tried playing online with Joker and I could not win a single round. There were some matches that I couldn't land a single hit with Joker because the input delay was so bad. I could switch to characters like Ike or Byleth and actually win a few rounds because their attacks don't need to be nearly as precise. Smash's input delay is startlingly bad, especially after playing something like GG: Strive online and then going back to Smash.
I mained Joker up until Sephiroth came out, and fell in love with his playstyle, see my personal reason as to why I dropped him is cause when you’ve essentially mastered Joker and most of his matchups, imo he becomes a very easy character to use and doesn’t have that much punish windows. That’s just my two cents though.
former Joker main here, now maining Diddy. I really agree that the crux of Joker’s difficulty to pilot is, paradoxically, the Arsene mechanic. For the reasons you listed, and also that there is no clearcut way for Joker to ensure that the gauge lines up nicely with the % damages of each player; to do so requires focusing on a lot of factors that are not neutral itself. For example, if you get arsene while your opponent is in respawn, your gauge is wasted on building chip damage instead of arsene’s much needed KO power. if you get arsene when you’re at 100%+, you can lose the whole gauge if you lose your stock off one lost interaction. It’s very much a character that ends matches in 2 stocks in either direction.
I still love Joker simple mechanics, speed, attack speed, and power, he is still gonna be my main. I'm surprised joker hasn't been meta in a while. And now I actually played persona 5 royal and strikers which were fun game definitely recommend playing if you have a switch (p5 strikers only) or ps5/ps4.
I feel like Joker could take some inspiration from Nago from Guilty gear strive. They’re both on the harder spectrum for their respective games, and have a ‘comeback mechanic’ that makes them op. But one thing with Nago is that despite being more on the difficult side, he has very few weaknesses. I feel like they should do that for Joker as well. Make him actually really good, but that’s the cost of making such a taxing character. Make him a go big or go home character like Nago. In fact, Nago when he reaches his ‘comeback mechanic’ loses health and can’t do his special moves, but he has a new super and his attack range is increased by a lot. Joker’s base should be really good, but the moment Arsene comes out, the enemy should be playing defence or stalling
I follow vars for league content and somehow ended up here, I always saw how he often compared league to smash, but never thought that he knew his smash this well. Smash is actually my favorite multiplayer franchise of all time, I've played it since I was in school when I would play smash 64 with friends, this might be the first time I sub to the same person twice lmao!
Can’t explain well enough how frustrating it is to play online sometimes. You get fucked by all the ness’ yoshis, and mario’s, but that one gun play offstage makes it all worth it.
As a joker secondary and I used to main him, I’ve now switched to sephiroth but still play him a lot, joker is the best character in the game with no bad matchups it’s just stupid that no one plays him
this was a wonderful insight to why there aren't very many joker players and it was really nice hearing actual criticisms towards his character without people calling him stupid broken because of arsene.
Ohhh I give such props to every smash youtuber who mentions or brings up onus, onus is so important in smash, almost single handedly why zoners have an easier mental state because the burden of approach is on the opponent
Nice video. I think joker is being less uses now is a bit because of Pyra and Mythra because they are quite easier in my opinion to play than joker, but you are right in many points thay you made. I think a video like this about sephiroth would be interesting as he doesn't get many results and there are also very few people playing him.
For his neutral special he wields a gun
So true
For his neutral special he does the funny persona 3 thing
Truer words have never been typed out
Neutral special plus jump when an opponent approaches or to somewhat ledgeguard while shooting then jumping of course.
Fax
As someone who mains Joker, the reasons why people don’t play him as often anymore are, funnily enough, some of the exact reasons why I do. Part of it may be my play style, but reaching that 150% is exhilarating. It might also just be me, but I never feel like that 50% happens all too often for me. Every time I try to pick another “more optimal” character, it just feels off. For me, playing Joker is fun.
I feel that too with sheik and joker
Agreed
For me, Joker is the perfect character for me and fits the type of game I want to play, being one that is extremely fluid and flexible. He can’t do anything the best, but he can do everything good enough to the point where it’s threatening and that’s what I like so much about him
youre a fucking dork lol joker mains are all fucking losers
*"FUN!?"*
In *MY* competitive brawler?
It's more likely than you think.
FREE PC CHECK!
It may just be counterplay. The competive scene was flouded with Jokers, so they had no choice but to learn how to beat Joker. Just like in the beginning Inkling seemed too broken, but now that people got the matchup down, the character seems a little underwhelming.
I think it’s probably up to 50% what you said. But that’s the obvious part of the explanation. I think what this video did so well was to account for all the other nuances
Ironically that's always been one shortcoming Megaten (Persona) struggles with.
Popularity for them never comes in steady increments, it's always some ridiculously volatile bursts. It's half the reason Vets can hardly handle the newcomer floods that plague that fandom.
Was it really flooded though? It's not like Melee or Brawl where there's floods of Fox or Meta Knight players in top 8. MKLeo was really the only Joker getting big results and everyone was questioning whether Joker really was the best character or it was just MKLeo's prowess as a player.
@@IronManx70 online yes. friendlies yes. also it doesnt make sense to look at only top 8s when you say "flooded". look at top 128s/groups or even pools. there was such a huge influx of jokers once leo proved his viability it was insane. top 8 in melee has marth, yoshi, fox, pikachu, falco, falcon, puff yet its a fox dominated game and everyone knows the matchup. your point is retarded. people practiced an insane amount against jokers due to mkleo being so unstoppable on him. he was a brick wall people had to learn to play against. so 90% of pros learned the matchup well. anyone else trying to play joker and not being leo just got smoked due to matchup familiarity and everyone being so practiced on it.
Most people still rate him top 2/3 though... underwhelming seems like a stretch.
Very good points imo. Bottom line, joker is really hard to play well.
I can’t in good faith call myself a joker main because half the time I play a dozen other characters I enjoy to ‘take a break’ from joker. Sometimes it’s nice to turn the brain off and play donkey kong ya know
Reject humanity, return to monke
This is so true, even when I was maining Joker I remember I used to basically take breaks from the character to play Lucina ( and sometimes DK too, I swear everyone enjoys playing DK from time to time )
Donke
True, joker is so hard to play. I play a lot of joker but can’t call myself good :). I usually used terry, marth, zss :)
Exactly me. I started playing Joker a while ago and while I feel like I'm decent with him, I would never want to actually main him. I main characters like Kirby and Incineroar for a reason. They're simple, fun and stupid.
As someone who's been playing this character since he's dropped, I completely agree that he's a character who can't autopilot to the extent others can. There's never a moment where you default to one move or tool in neutral or interaction, and his flow chart is more of a clustered web of things than well, a flow chart. He gets tiring to play as well because you want to make the most of your comeback mechanic without throwing it away to the wind, but a lot of the time achieving arsene drastically changes how you and the opponent plays for those ~30 seconds, putting pressure on you to use that time window to gain an edge while your opponent makes that as hard as possible during that time. It's draining.
i think all meter gimmicks play like that. how campy does little mac get when he’s got KO punch? or cloud limit? or terry GO? not to be a shitter but if you don’t like the way the meter plays then don’t play him
@@DJchoppa666 the difference is, Joker is on a timer. Mac is based on if he gets hit, same with Kazuya past a certain percent, Terry keeps his. Cloud is the only other character who's on a timer but he can charge his on own merit. Joker LITERALLY has to make the most of his meter for that stock, 30 seconds or less, or you have to wait to either rebels guard smth again or go next stock. It's not the same as the others, they can play around their meters comfortably.
Gotta love the players who run away when Arsene shows up and it's just 30 seconds of Benny Hill music.
Wasted character slot
@@spaceman9396 that wasn't even remotely the discussion but okay! 💯👍🏾
I think his high ceiling combined with the need for really tight timings to get non arsene kills is the big reason why he is not used much. Same with Peach/Shulk due to their high ceiling as well. I play Wolf/Aegis and it's much easier to swap between those 2 chars for matchups then it is to learn Joker/Peach/Shulk.
That’s a weird way of saying “He isn’t played because he’s over powered.”
Except that that’s not what he said at all
@@Bossboko what he said is not the definitive "this is the only reason why people stopped playing Joker," everyone has different reasons.
@@Bossboko Except it’s a fact and regardless of who asked or said what, I reinstated a factual statement.
Aegis players😖
His main problem is that despite being very fast and having good frame data, his neutral and combo game isn't as easy as like Mythra, who can just outspeed everyone and nair/tilt people forever. He's got the tools and he's got the combos to do good damage, but they require more precision and skill from the player.
Pikachu similarly has amazing tools throughout it's entire kit and can conceivably win almost any interaction if you play perfectly. But you can drop stuff very easily, and even Esam does so quite regularly. Pikachu then explodes from just a few screw ups. Joker isn't that fragile ( he's actually heavier than wolf and his recovery is quite great) but if you want to play a character who's a speedster with disjoints, free neutral, and still has explosive kill power, Aegis is just easier to play consistently with. Easer neutral, easier combo routes, and a much more controlled "finisher".
High execution characters are just inherently going to be inconsistent for long term play, and more consistent characters aren't notably worse in this game.
There's a reason Mkleo or Zackray's joker are sick as hell to watch whereas literally everyone playing Mythra now just isn't really that interesting.
We always are surprised and in awe what Leo and Zackray can pull out in their combo game and neutral, whereas Mythra is just "haha nair, fair, fair, fair, fair, up B
So just play Smash 4 the character.
Joker has mediocre frame data, it's just not awful but when you got characters with -3 aerials and joker only has 2 -5 aerials that are not even -5 half of the time cause of the nature of how they're used you end up with a character that has a very big misconception placed on him and anyone who knows slightly more knowledge and says otherwise gets called bad
@@Mars-pw4iw This is off topic but comment threads keep repeating for me and just wanna know whether or not that's only a me thing because im going fucking CRAZY
@@youngveggies6558 it's off topic and only relevant to the top but doesn't it even matter if it's off topic for the comments, it's on topic for the video and this ain't a reddit thread anyways.
Surprisingly enough, I run into way too many jokers in online smash when he doesn’t perform too well with input lag. Usually I just get jokers who get Arsen and spam B and side B nonstop. But nowadays, it’s not often I see them, just a buncha swordies
Yeah for me online is infested with Cloud and Roy
LOL I always get Captain Falcon at least twice every 5 Quickplay games. Even in arenas I find him. Fatality and Sean really popularized this guy in Ultimate.
Lag in tournaments is much worse than lag in quickplay, since in quick play all players are from nearby, whereas in tournaments they could be from across the whole country. So he's much more viable on quick play than a tournament.
While I think you're right for the most part, I also think it's just because Leo is not playing him anymore and most people just ride whoever's doing good. Also It's easier to play Byleth than Joker as it's not as mentally exhausting
Even Leo said that Joker was more taxing to play as you have to keep playing him or if you don't you get really sloppy. This in contrast with Byleth (as you said), it's night and day as to see who's easier to main.
Yep. It happened with many characters. Whoever gets dropped by a top player is all of the sudden bad, low tier, or simply not worth it. This community can be very easy to sway.
Byleth and Corrin's rating went way up the moment leo played a game with them in a tournament, when before people considered them below average, with Corrin being considered possibly the worst Swordie.
@@Aaron-cs3xl he's playing joker again lmfao
I think the thing it really boils down to is that back in 2019 when Joker was at his peak, he was really seen as the "king" of the top tiers. But now there is Pyra/Mythra that are just as good as Joker (and in fact, probably a bit better) and they require a lot less grinding time to get to the top, so people tend to go for them over Joker these days.
Joker requires real finesse and excellent game sense to use to his maximum potential, and while I'm not saying that playing Pyra/Mythra at the top is "free" (let's be honest, it still takes way more skill than a guy like me could pull off) you will still start seeing the results more quickly and with less effort than you would with Joker.
As this video points out, the online era caused people to drop Joker and by the time it ended Pyra/Mythra were starting to show up so nobody picked him back up again.
So basically power greed (What I call when the game's player base actually demands power creep).
I mean a funny thing is that Aegis isn't that dominant in top level play anyways. Even like Leo and Sparg0 dropped them. They haven't seriously depressed tournament diversity much either. And if anything the king of general consistency is still Rob. Smash Ultimate really does feel like the game that's so balanced that you can just play the character that feels best for you and you enjoy putting the time into.
Even at his peak, Joker didn’t have much representation.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa he fell off mid level for the reasons he said. The only ones who really made moves with him were zackray (whos on hiatus) and leo (swapped to byleth to have more fun) who dropped them.
Now, Zackrays coming back, Marss picked them up, and some jokers are pushing the character and breaking into high-top level status. I could see a resurgence of the character.
@@zate5355 Zachray kinda plays a lot of characters, although Joker most often. He did seem interested in Shiek before taking his break though if I recall? Marss does seem like he's fully picking up the character, though we'll see if he actually replaces Zero Suit as his main or if Joker is just a secondary. I haven't heard any other notables at top level. The character is definitely very good, but due to the difficulty level, I'd be surprised if they ever grow to be a character with huge representation. Pika has a similar problem, but even more extreme.
Joker is one of my absolute favorite characters to use in Ultimate and he was a character I had hoped would make it into the game. However just because I (and many other's) like him doesn't mean everyone will. These are some of the top reasons I see people not using the character, some contributing to the characters downfall.
(1) Some people simply don't like the way he plays or people simply don't like the character himself and/or the game he comes from: This is by far the most common reason I see people disliking any character, so this isn't purely a Joker problem.
(2) He's too difficult to master and/or use consistently: While I don't agree that Joker is in the same realm as Peach, Ice Climbers, or Shulk levels of difficulty, I do believe he's an above average level difficulty in how he's used. You not only have to know how to play Arsene Joker (the easier of the 2 to learn), but you also have to learn Base Joker as well.
(3) Pyra/Mythra exists/easier top tiers exist: This kinda adds on to the last point a bit. While most people agree that Joker is a top tier character aand potentially the best character in the game, he's too difficult to master and most people can get similar and/or better results with a simpler character. Why use Joker when I can get the same results with characters like Palutena, Lucina, or R.O.B.? One character I see many former Joker mains switching to is Pyra/Mythra. The main reasons is because they're easier to use, have similar gameplay to Joker, Pyra is an on command (but slower) Arsene, and they have better range than Joker. I also see some Joker mains who liked using Base Joker switching to Sheik and Greninja since they're like Base Joker but can get kills more easily (I don't agree with that message for Sheik, but I do believe that's true for Greninja).
(4) Joker got nerfed/he isn't as good as he used to be: This argument primarily comes from Arsene mains and amateur Joker's, but it's undeniable that the nerfs did affect Joker at least a tiny bit.
(5) Not too many top players use him/MKLeo dropped him: This opinion primarily comes from people who let top players and/or tier lists define their opinions. I personally think it's a pretty weak mindset to let the best players influence you on the character you choose to play, but I digress. It's true that top players are dropping Joker more and more as each day passes, and this does affect how the future metagame plays (nowadays you're seeing characters like Pyra/Mythra, Steve, Sephiroth, Diddy Kong, Sonic, and Cloud be used more often then some of the pre-Covid top tiers).
I'm kinda sad that Joker is no longer going to be seen in top placements as often, and it's kinda sad that people are now questioning Joker's legitimacy as a potential candidate for best character in the game. Despite this, I will continue to use Joker (alongside my main, Mewtwo) and I'm hoping to one day see a resurgence of Joker mains (highly unlikely since Pyra/Mythra exists, but a man can dream!)
I feel this way about Marth. I seriously think he's better than Lucina on paper. He has better kill potential, more combo potential, and beats characters Lucina can't and then some. However, his skill ceiling is so high that not many people use him and take the easier option (Lucina or Roy). It doesn't help that people keep trying to play Marth like it's Smash 4, or use Marth like Lucina, when he's his own character. Then Leo drops Marth after using him for... not long... and says he isn't worth it... Now Marth's very disliked because of ONE top player's opinion on a character he didn't even use right lol. It also doesn't help that both ESAM and HungryBox think Marth is mid or low tier simply because Lucina exists and since Ignaize hasn't won a major. It's very ridiculous how characters with high skill ceilings are labeled as low tier unless it's Shiek because Void. This is coming from a huge Leo, HungryBox, and ESAM fan, so no hate to them. I simply don't like how tier lists and top players easily sway the community no matter how wrong they turn out to be.
Despite all of this, I still use Marth. I've gotten much better with him and I want to win a tournament with him one day. Of course I have Corrin, Hero, Terry, and Zelda to back me up in more difficult times lol.
I agree that way too many people just ride off top player opinions and tier lists. They’re not always wrong but it’s kinda sad that some people just want to pick “the best” over characters that might suit them better.
@@Spyder-Marth you bet you can tell the best player in the world he isn't playing his character right!!
@@runaway74 I bet I could lol. He probably wouldn't believe me tho, which is understandable since I haven't done anything at all but flop with Corrin at Momocon XD
Wasted character slot
This video is really well made man, the best in the series so far. You're making some great work here.
It feels great to have my struggles acknowledged after playing this character since release, love this video!
You know, everybody complains about how overtly gimmicky and easy all these comeback mechanics and combos work in the game, yet pick all of them over the character whose comeback mechanic actually requires some effort to use.
I'm very impressed by this video. It answered many questions I had about this character. Personally, I used to loathe watching joker in tournaments. Mainly because he DID seem too broken and with no obvious weaknesses. As the viewer, it wasn't interesting or fun to watch him destroy opponents. But now that his usage has decreased, I find that I respect the players who stuck with him more, and I even find myself rooting for him now - especially when he's against a Pyra/Mythra or Steve.
From a spectator's standpoint, while Joker may be difficult to do well with, he sure as hell puts on more of a show than Byleth. That one clip of mkleo resetting maister on the smashville plat with gun to lead into the u-air loops was just awesome
I just really like his movement, he's still one of the only characters where I can see how to capitalize a situation AND actually execute it because the character will just do what I want them to
I still think he is the best (or 2nd) character in the whole game,his combos and kill power are great and even has probably the best mechanic in the game
If you are talking purely theoretical, I could see it. I feel a lot of people overrate Joker as a practical tournament character.
He's the best imo
People still debate wether Joker being 1st and Pikachu being 2nd and vice versa. The community just can't decide who of them is 1st and 2nd so imo they both should just be titled as 1st
He's a wasted character slot
@@spaceman9396 Cope.
"joker is a character that need to change playstyle based on opponent's playstyle"
I am surprised that many people just realized it now. from the first time I see it, I already know and I think it is the reason why joker is strong. because it is easy to adapt to every playstyle
well, I like the update, it making him balance
You mean it's possible to adapt to every playstyle, not easy. If it were easy no one would drop Joker, or at least fewer would.
Joker was a character that never really clicked with me, most of the dlc didn’t. I think the most fun dlc characters to play are Byleth and Steve
Hero too for me!
@@codyruchian I mean sure if you secretly like Hero but I wouldn’t blatantly advertise it 😅
Even though I don’t have it on mine I would say mine is terry from what I played on my friends switch
Steve, Banjo, Terry and Kazuya really clicked with me, Steve and Banjo are two of my three mains
the other is DK
@@EmperorPenguin1217 Much respect ✊
DK is one of my favorites to play in this game
I’m probably gonna main this guy if I ever buy the game, I just love the amount of effort that went into him and the fact that they kept the stupid running in a circle thing from the game. The victory screen is just so well done!
Same, I’ll probably never buy a switch but if I do I’m playing joker regardless of how good he is
Oh you're new! You only have a handful of videos. Well, there really well done Andi can wait to see more from you
Well I mean technically I have two other channels but yeah I'm new to the smash content scene XD
Interesting how in all of Ult’s history Leo’s worst placement is 33rd at Umebura with Joker; the only time he’s ever missed top 8 (and by quite a bit at that). Easily the most taxing & difficult character he’s ever made work in this game
Makes sense why people stoped playing him as much he is very hard to learn with all his combos and harder to master.I think his biggest drop was pyra and mythra as there around the same tier but pyra and mythra are much easier to play for beginners.While still being amazing in pro play.Arsene is pretty strong when you have it but without it your kill options are limited with the only good one being back air .While most other highly played characters have easy kill confirms or are easier.Joker is very inconsistent in his play style cause of this power gap between a no joker arsene and with arsene is huge but if your opponent have several ways to make you lose it fast or just wait it out.Just my take on the character he’s very fun and was the first actual dlc character of smash ultimate and I think he’s still good and has aged well as the game progressed.
Id argue joker is much easier in beginner play then aegis. There’s a reason you see way more jokers over there. He’s got projectiles and she doesn’t. That’s huge at that level of play cause beginners struggle with projectile spam.
@@wilburforce8046 I disagree, pyra mythra are easier because they are sword characters with a straight forward kit. Joker is an execution heavy character at higher levels to kill consistently. Most people can also just stall arsene if they don’t want to be killed early.
@@ronniejacksonjr4910 you said for beginners. begginers don't need execution they need spam and raw forward smashes. Joker is better then aegis in that level of play. Stalling is also uber rare in beginners. I would know I play in there.
@@wilburforce8046 good point, I forgot to say that pyra and mythra have moves that hit harder with less end lag
@@wilburforce8046 I think there's a distinction between beginner player in general and beginner competitive player. Joker is easier for some rando who just plays the game at parties every few months, as he does have projectiles to spam and be annoying with and has a much better recovery. But most people talking about any kind of competitive comparison are talking about beginner competitive, as in like people at least doing decently at local tournaments. At that point you should already be able to deal with at least braindead projectile spam and be able to do basic level combos and neutral and stuff.
have one friend who mains joker, everyone trash-talk him even if he loses because joker is "broken".
honestly I get it, it's super hard to have fun against a good joker main, this character has virtually no weakspots if it's played at it best.
and at the same time it's hard to have fun playing joker at it maximum potencial, you NEED to work for your kills, it's not a character that will autopilot and just win.
so I guess the reason joker isn't that popular it's a combination between not being fun to play or play against (at least in a competitive manner)...
He might be a somewhat rare character but he still has reps like naitosharp, emass, omega, Lemmon, Marss now and maybe MKLeo at some point
Pretty sure Leo's Joker exists about as much as his Aegis at this point. Neither are quite his style currently.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa he hinted at it with that cosmos vid on twitch
@@Walterhartwellwhite07 Eh, I mean Leo can just use whoever and win most of the time anyways. But I would be surprised if Joker ever rose back to anything above occasional usage.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa I get it, Byleth is simpler and kills easier than joker.
@@ronniejacksonjr4910 What's interesting is that Byleth is kind of an objectively weaker character and Leo has been forced off Byleth sometimes when faced with a matchup and opponent he doesn't think he can outskill. But not enough people can pressure him enough to actually swap off and if he can outskill, it seems like byleth is basically cruise control for him at this point.
This vid actually made me appreciate joker's gameplan. Thanks for the insight on what was going on with the character
I feel one of the big reasons-mainly amongst casual to intermediate players- is because one: he’s hard to pick up completely, and two: people can often shame you for playing him or at least treat you differently in some way. It’s something I’ve experienced when I tested out joker, and something my friends have also faced.
Wasted character slot
Joker reminds me a lot of Jin in T7. People say Jin has all the tools he needs to be one of the top tiers, but typically has very few mains and also is lower on tournament tier lists. This is because many characters in T7 have say 10 moves that they will typically use in neutral and each one covers a couple or many options. Jin, on the other hand, has excellent tools but each one has a specific use so it's really like 30 in neutral. There is no auto pilot allowed.
I think thats pefect irony...in the game he is a normal boy who you see how you want him to see and only under pressure he can rebel. Props to Sakurai he surly took his time.
First off, this is a fantastic video as someone who doesn't play Smash competitive I was always curious as to how an RPG protagonist as dynamic as Joker would translate into Smash Bros.
What's funny is based on what you've said in the video it seems as though Joker maybe (?) the most adaptable character in the game but requires of skill to master. What's funny is, I think that's actually very fitting for his character but I can also imagine he's one of those characters who if you see him in a Smash Tournament in the hands of a good player, you're going to be paying very close attention.
Nice video. There are many factors as to why no one really plays this character anymore. One of the biggest ones is the amount of work required to see success when you could just play much less mentally taxing characters such as Aegis, Wolf, or Roy for example. And yes, Leo is a huge contributor as to why Joker was so popular in the first place; people (not everyone though) saw that and wanted to imitate it so they could be on top of the competition. Leo drops him, most of the playerbase follows. At least that's what I've taken away from it. I've also seen many players pick him up just for a quick win or out of salt and immediately drop him weeks, if not days later. He takes a deep understanding of the game and discipline to work at higher levels of play and some people just aren't cut out for that tbh. As much as I wanna see more and more Jokers pop up, people just need to play who they love, not 'the best character in the game' (even though he most definitely is if you can consistently play at that 150%). The day I drop Joker is the day he is removed from the game; I love this character and I will strive to push his meta as far as possible.
Omg hi MoSMaje! Your Joker is so good! I've learned a lot about the character and how to improve as him through your videos even though I've been playing him since day 1. Your channel is the place to go for Joker tips and advice and your clips are really stylish as well. Thanks for all the help you've provided that's allowed me to get better!
@@minotaurinmaze ❤️ much thanks homie. Please stay tuned as you’re in for a treat with the stuff releasing soon.
@@MajeFGC I'm looking forward to it!
Great video!
I think this applies to a lot of characters and especially pikachu who is NOT CLOSE TO #1
People need to hear this instead of taking everything in a vacuum and ignoring actually relevant situations
This Video was made because Mkleo stopped playing Joker and you had the impression that nobody plays Joker anymore.
He was among the most used characters in tournaments by players according to Smash Doods.
Joker just doesn't have a lot of really good players who can make it to the big screen apparently.
Maybe a lot of casuals who saw Mkleo and go to small tournaments
Crazy how even a year after this video joker is STILL in the top 10 most played tournament characters
Something I feel that is not touched on here is the idea of people in the smash community playing characters that Pro Smashers find success on become somehow intrinsically linked to their power in-game. A huge flaw in the vast majority of smash thinking imo is that results mean everything. They contribute to the discussion for sure. But they aren't the be all and end all. MKLeo was instrumental in giving the huge boost to Joker's perceived power rating for a tier list. I main Joker and have since his release. Another things I want to put into the discussion is that Smashers are so quick to complain instead of figuring out counter play (I truly believe if smashers instead of went to their keyboards to complain went to the lab to figure out how to beat something we'd be in the next timeline across from our own. And the whole game would be better for it.) Joker is the type of character where he has the tools to deal with almost any situation and I feel his meta is not being pushed because of the drop off of players post Online era. MOS Maje's channel is one of the only ones out there consistently pushing the meta with options available to Joker. Smash ultimate players are the least likely players of any "pro" game to put any practice in compared to any other esport like League/Melee/any other FGC. They want all the results with no effort so they lean to characters that little skill to master. Joker is one of those characters that get the most out of mastery he's the Riven of this game all of it looks simple enough to play but to actually achieve full effectiveness with all the tools at his disposal is truly difficult maybe not as much as Peach or some other technical characters but he's up there. No matter how much I play him IRL in tournaments or online I find nobody complains about him like they are with Steve/Kazuya/even Falco. He feels fair to fight against and Joker has to earn his openings through good movement and spacing and projectile usage to encourage approaches from opponents. Not saying everything about him is fair he's still a broken character and arsene brings him up a considerable amount but he has small weaknesses without huge upsides.
I like your take on Joker as a character and his playstyle.
The persona music in the back is a W. Its the small details. Ill sub
Surprised this video was 5 seconds long
"Leo dropped him, be sure to like favorite and subscribe"
I love that I recognise the footage you're playing in the background and I love that you used 2021 Leo footage instead of all 2019 stuff
Throughout all my playtime of smash games, I've never been "omg I gotta learn how to pull off this combo consistently", I just see someone pulling a move and go "Ohhh I gotta react with this" which is why I main Joker, he's good at reacting to anything thrown at him. Joker's combos being a "high skill ceiling" to clear doesn't stop me from just ignoring the ceiling. Although the one thing is you need to have determination to stick with joker, no matter how you're planning to approach playing him.
He's a wasted character slot
@@spaceman9396 Did you get fucking destroyed by a Joker main today or something or what exactly compelled you to say "wasted slot" as a reply under several comments here
I think this is why I'm surprisingly good with Joker. Out of all the characters, Joker feels like one that I can consistently play because he's versatile and has a very mixed playstyle.
He’s so cool and fun to watch tho
One of the most overlooked things on Joker is his grab game. Joker has the best combinations of throws in the game imo without question. F throw and back throw are undoubtedly some of the best positioning throws in the game, often allowing Joker to get free stage control or sending your opponent off stage, allowing Joker to abuse the hell out of his edgeguarding and projectiles, even just letting your opponent return to stage for free and letting Arsene charge. Up throw is a great early combo throw that transitions into a great juggle starter at mid to high percents and down throw is a good low and mid percent combo throw that begins killing around 170. Joker's grab game is crazy
I honestly do not think my expience matches most others here. I still see a lot of joker mains at my University and at locals, and have seen them for a long time. I always saw him as one of the most popular characters at a mid-high level, and it has not really gone down from my experience
Same. I think the real reason people drop him is simply because of the reputation he got through leo. In that its the best character or one of the best. So people would rather lose using anyone else then to lose using the best character in the game.
Your points are absolutely perfect and totally understandable to everyone. Though it's a real shame that it's like this. Joker is a character that is so interesting to spectate, especially when being played at a high, that watching Leo go absolutely ham and make top players look like they don't know how to do a forward-smash, was just so enrapturing. Seeing it gone is a real shame, even if an understadable one.
Well the video title didnt age very well
I agree on all this, and while I think Esam is correct in his assessment of Joker. Saying he's like top 2/3, can handle basically any match up, and requires reads to beat effectively. His need for higher execution without Arsene and the sheer exhaustion of playing Joker well constantly is what stops him from dominating the meta game. There are easier options that aren't much worse overall. And you can enact their gameplan without nearly as much mental fatigue. Granted you could argue fighting Joker can be nearly as exhausting as playing him, but when you combine a less mentally taxing character with easier/more tournament friendly kill combos. They're gonna be more appealing for pro players unless they're really dedicated to Joker.
On the topic of comeback mechanics, I'd love a video on Lucario for this series
Oh he's definitely getting an episode haha
Super neat Video, thank you 💜
Also, thank you for using Sunset Bridge. Easily one of my favorite Unsung Heroes of the P5 soundtrack. I could vibe to this for daaaaaaaays
To put it simply, Leo found his soul main in byleth, dropped joker, and nobody else in the world is good enough to make joker pop like Leo could. I think I comes down to Leo being so good that he was the only one that could use joker’s full kit to a top level extent. Then Leo found byleth, and he is just happier playing byleth so he’ll play them instead. People just don’t see joker because all the Leo fans also dropped that character, and the current joker mains need a few years to get at a level the Leo could play joker at. People need to remember that this game is still young, and most of us are scrubs compared to how people will be in 3-5 years from now. Joker will make a resurgence; mark my words
Yeah, most of the top players in Ultimate are Smash 4 veterans with a few Brawl veterans scattered in between (only Melee veteran I know who plays Ultimate is HBox and I've yet to ever hear of a 64 veteran play Ultimate competitively). Eventually the people who began their competitive careers on Ultimate will start to catch up to the Smash 4 veterans, but I don't think that will happen for another 2-3 years at the minimum.
I also agree on the stance regarding MKLeo. People REALLY undermine herd mentality and how much a celebrity (in this case, top/pro Ultimate players) can influence people's thoughts on certain things (in this case, a characters viability). There's a LOT of people who play fighting games and only pick a character based off of a tier list or because a top player used a certain character. I honestly don't blame such people. I find them weak minded, but I understand that these players are just trying to get good as fast as possible so they take the advice of a top player/tier list a little to the extreme (I used to be like this until I one day I just decided to use whichever character I liked). While I don't believe it's the main reason Joker has fell off competitively, I do believe MKLeo had a big influence in how people perceived Joker since he was essentially the only top player who had mastered the character and got consistent results.
This is a crazy good video, talking points and just the overall quality.
I sense a pattern here, Joker has alot of similarities with Taliyah: not many flairs but takes lots of patience n' game knowledge to play well
Form league?
@@Moodyboytodd obvious, yeah
I just want to thank you for being the first person ever (that I hear) to bring up the fact that smash is a mentally taxing game. I thought I was weird because my friends could keep playing for 4-7 hours continuously while after 2 or 3 I was done. It’s fun, but I enjoy games that don’t require you to be thinking ALL THE TIME a little more.
Joker is just so fun for me. He just feels right for me. I don't really mind that nobody else is playing him.
That's how I feel like Sora
He's the right kind of Floaty
Inkling feels good to play
And Hero's just fun to play
When everything feels natural while using the character, you know you've found your perfect character. Joker is definitely that character for me as well. Once you get into the rhythm with his combos and movement, it's an amazing time and extremely satisfying
@@deadjoystickz7173 EXACTLY, the speed the damage and everything just fits with what I want. My only issue is using rebels guard too much and not being patient lol. He isn't a 100% always initiate character and that's my toughest thing. Also rebels guard. I use it way too much, it's just so rewarding when it hits and I never get too angry when I get punished for using it, which happens a lot, I'm more like yeah that was on me.
@@Theblaziken2000 I used to be the same way with Rebel's Guard, though I've mostly adapted to using it to remind the opponent that their combos aren't actually true or if they're being really mashy. I also won't use it for a long time and then throw it out suddenly if my opponent is a bit too eager. It's one of those things you just learn from using Joker, and honestly you can learn so much from using Joker and feeling things out. Always love to see a fellow Joker main that enjoys how he feels and not just because of his tier list placement :)
@@deadjoystickz7173 it also doesn't hurt that Persona 5 is one of my favorite games.
Joker has been my secondary ever since he came out and I still don't know how to play as him. As a Kirby main trying to pick up a character with a very high skill ceiling, I can't help but feel overwhelmed whenever I play against someone more experienced and yet, I still play Joker simply because I like him
No one plays Joker?? Idk about that man, maybe just not top results from any Joker right now.
I think that's what he's talking about. If most every pro considers Joker, Pika and Aegis as the top 3 characters, why aren't they the ones that all the pros use to top events? Joker and Pika have superior tools to everyone else, but require more precise performance than other options which is stressful over a long match. Pika is the most extreme of this, as if you screw up he just explodes due to his low weight, and it's why Esam is like it's only rep. Even Aegis has been dropped by Leo and Sparg0 and while they enjoy decent representation and results, they certainly aren't crushing the meta of tournaments under their heels.
This is awesome and captures a lot of the feelings I share about playing joker. I’d seen a few of your videos pop up on my feed and thought they’d be more fluff than substance. Saw praise on Twitter today for this video and finally checked it out. I was pleasantly surprised with the content. Good stuff, subbed.
Joker is my favorite character in the game, with him coming from my favorite series represented in smash and having a very quick play style who can get powerful satisfying moves and reliable projectiles. It does baffle me somewhat how a character this good and this many other miscellaneous things going for him become somewhat unpopular but I think you explained it well.
Even with only 9 videos made, these videos are both well informed and both entertaining to watch. Hope you keep these videos up, these are great, would love to see a video on Ganondorf and how he fell from grace
Only 9 videos on this channel but over 300 on my other two channels combined xD
@@VarsIII Seen the Genshin videos too when I used to play Genshin before I didn’t like the game, doing a good job making this
Everyone plays him tho
There’s no top level rep every since Leo dropped him and Zackray took a break from smash
Bro what region you live in? I have no joker main over here.
"Why people stopped playing Joker"
MKLeo 2months later: Hold my chela
TLDR: Most people find Grab->Hook combos quite difficult, and overlook mechanics like Eiha/Eigaon poison effect
As a joker main i can safely say that down B/side B are the only moves i use
Joker huh? By this metric, Pikachu is next. People love seeing hard characters be played and awesome custom combos be performed, but at a top level you wanna be able to play as simple as possible. The fact that Joker goes from being 80% as strong to being 150% as strong, when many characters are a solid 110%, is why it's not as worth it to play him. Still super good though
Edit: Damn, my percentage analogy actually made it into the video! Great minds think alike
Inkling won the poll
Pikachu is pretty easy to understand and Esam demonstrates it pretty clearly. He's theoretically got a tool for every situation, and amazing combos and kill setups. But they are all hard to do and if you slip up a couple times Pika does just die due to his low weight. Even Esam, who dedicated his life to being the pikachu guy, drops stuff regularly, gets caught out a few times and explodes.
I didn't even realize people stopped playing joker, I still find him hella fun
I feel offended as a Joker main! /J
Me too
one thing i really hate about people's opinions on joker is when they say the rebellion guage is a comeback mechanic. It's not a comeback mechanic if you use it correctly. You need to actually know how to play joker in order to use it correctly and if you still use it as exclusively a comeback mechanic then you don't actually know how to play joker.
Joker is literally the second most played character in the game. Who the hell makes a video on why no one plays joker despite him being the second most played out of 80+ characters.
I think he is the literal embodiment of “volatile”, it’s either you pack it up and go, or just straight SEND IT.
I think of him as more of a quick time strategist, he’s quick to punish but is very strategic in his punish game and approach.
Joker is one of the 3 best characters but he's just hard. One example, when Leo first picked up Joker he actually did worse, barely winning any majors. When he however mastered him... Well u know how it went
>sees Joker all the time in online play
>also sees him fairly often in tournaments
... alright then.
Wdym he's still one of the most popular champs
I’m a joker main who has been spending a long time trying to improve defensive Joker, a big part of that is footstool out of shield. Joker really struggles to play in shield, majority of the time, you’ll be flicking shield in neutral for parries.
When it comes to secondaries or co-mains, you usually want characters who will cover Jokers bad match ups, or has a very different style of the joker you play, which makes it really difficult. Luckily smash ultimate allows you to just play who you want and what you’re comfortable with, but looking for secondaries is also really difficult because of how good Joker can be, that you need to put time into a whole other character to balance your weaknesses.
People want to see more low tiers characters rather than the same old high tier characters.
Do u mean Vars video-wise or people main low tiers?
@@M255-n9z low tiers in general
0:43 Piranha Plant is still the first legitimate DLC character. Just because he was a free bonus for a while and not a part of the pass doesn’t mean he isnt. You download him, he's an entirely new character. I like the vid but this sentiment always bugs me idk
a few of my friends and i are all joker mains, we just don't play the game as often as we used to :(
It's so funny, everything you mention in this video is why I love Joker as a character. That skillful, precise gameplay, followed by strong kill moves really makes me adore his kit and style. Though I do think he struggles in certain matchups he really is a solid character
What matchups does he ever struggle with
@@spicymeatballs2thespicening he struggles against characters like Pikachu, since he's very tall and mid weight, so he's prone to some combos, and he struggles a lot against characters with a lot of range, like lucina, since his hit boxes are pretty much not disjointed at all until you get Arsene.
The reason nobody plays joker like before is because before MKleo played him so they thought "oh hey he's the best character" so they stopped playing him gradually when Leo stopped maining him (also joker was hard nerfed) and now that MKleo plays Byleth and fans see how good HE is with Byleth now everyone is like "ooooooo, Byleth good, joker back (cause he got nerfed) and Leo doesn't play em).
.
Or that's what I think, I kinda noticed all of this go down from his rise with joker and so this why I'm saying this
My brother convinced me to get joker for the sole purpose that he has a gun
the lack of a "default" move is definitely it. I'm completely new to Smash so not even remotely competitive-level yet. But the reason I hesitate to play Joker is exactly the lack of what I call a brain-dead move. With Sephiroth I do neutral B when in doubt. With Joker, I don't feel safe casually firing the pistol.
sephiroth neutral b is not a good move to just throw out in neutral it’s really easy to punish
8:12 absolutely perfect clip to show off brawl
M2K metaknighting and Esams facial expressions
Great video. All your points apply to Pika too, I feel. It is those low lows that really keep these characters gated out of tournament top 8s a lot of the time.
Hey Vars, Marss watched this video!
Short answer: joker mains actually want to make friends
As someone who mains as Joker, this video is right on the money. I know to some this may not seem like a lot, but I've put in somewhere around 100+ hours into Joker and I've been playing Smash since the N64 days. The problem is that I play almost entirely off-line. I tried playing online with Joker and I could not win a single round. There were some matches that I couldn't land a single hit with Joker because the input delay was so bad. I could switch to characters like Ike or Byleth and actually win a few rounds because their attacks don't need to be nearly as precise. Smash's input delay is startlingly bad, especially after playing something like GG: Strive online and then going back to Smash.
I mained Joker up until Sephiroth came out, and fell in love with his playstyle, see my personal reason as to why I dropped him is cause when you’ve essentially mastered Joker and most of his matchups, imo he becomes a very easy character to use and doesn’t have that much punish windows. That’s just my two cents though.
former Joker main here, now maining Diddy. I really agree that the crux of Joker’s difficulty to pilot is, paradoxically, the Arsene mechanic. For the reasons you listed, and also that there is no clearcut way for Joker to ensure that the gauge lines up nicely with the % damages of each player; to do so requires focusing on a lot of factors that are not neutral itself. For example, if you get arsene while your opponent is in respawn, your gauge is wasted on building chip damage instead of arsene’s much needed KO power. if you get arsene when you’re at 100%+, you can lose the whole gauge if you lose your stock off one lost interaction. It’s very much a character that ends matches in 2 stocks in either direction.
I still love Joker simple mechanics, speed, attack speed, and power, he is still gonna be my main. I'm surprised joker hasn't been meta in a while.
And now I actually played persona 5 royal and strikers which were fun game definitely recommend playing if you have a switch (p5 strikers only) or ps5/ps4.
I am once again asking for a why no one plays incineroar
I feel like Joker could take some inspiration from Nago from Guilty gear strive. They’re both on the harder spectrum for their respective games, and have a ‘comeback mechanic’ that makes them op. But one thing with Nago is that despite being more on the difficult side, he has very few weaknesses.
I feel like they should do that for Joker as well. Make him actually really good, but that’s the cost of making such a taxing character. Make him a go big or go home character like Nago.
In fact, Nago when he reaches his ‘comeback mechanic’ loses health and can’t do his special moves, but he has a new super and his attack range is increased by a lot.
Joker’s base should be really good, but the moment Arsene comes out, the enemy should be playing defence or stalling
I follow vars for league content and somehow ended up here, I always saw how he often compared league to smash, but never thought that he knew his smash this well.
Smash is actually my favorite multiplayer franchise of all time, I've played it since I was in school when I would play smash 64 with friends, this might be the first time I sub to the same person twice lmao!
I'm so glad Leo took out Joker recently for the finals of a recent tournament, plus he went absolutely insane on Dabuzz
This video was so well done wow, very in good analysis of the character and i look forward to whatever u do in the future
Can’t explain well enough how frustrating it is to play online sometimes. You get fucked by all the ness’ yoshis, and mario’s, but that one gun play offstage makes it all worth it.
As a joker secondary and I used to main him, I’ve now switched to sephiroth but still play him a lot, joker is the best character in the game with no bad matchups it’s just stupid that no one plays him
this was a wonderful insight to why there aren't very many joker players and it was really nice hearing actual criticisms towards his character without people calling him stupid broken because of arsene.
Ohhh I give such props to every smash youtuber who mentions or brings up onus, onus is so important in smash, almost single handedly why zoners have an easier mental state because the burden of approach is on the opponent
I took my sleeping meds and clicked this video and his voice and the persona 5 music is such a sleepy vibe
Everyone started to ALWAYS SEE HIM COMING!
Nice video. I think joker is being less uses now is a bit because of Pyra and Mythra because they are quite easier in my opinion to play than joker, but you are right in many points thay you made. I think a video like this about sephiroth would be interesting as he doesn't get many results and there are also very few people playing him.