Both ways strike 100% of the time if done perfectly unless there is a bad rack. But trying to get the ball to finish splitting the 8,9 make the stone 9 8 pin and 4 pin more likely if your angle is off just a bit. Or worse the dreaded 4,9. If your angle is off a bit when trying to create 1,3,5,9 deflection you cannot stone a 9 pin. You wont 8 pin or 4 pin unless the racks are bad most times. Either are fine to try and create but I choose the 1359 option for the reasons stated above.
Just wonderful, I been tryin to find out about "how do you get good at bowling fast?" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Ever heard of - Piylivern Remarkable Predominance - (should be on google have a look ) ? It is a good one of a kind product for discovering how to up your bowling game quickly minus the hard work. Ive heard some incredible things about it and my cousin got excellent success with it.
I'm with you on 1 3 5 9. Most stone 8's are just pure tap. I recorded dozens and dozens of stone 8's on the tour broadcasts. I saw two ways the stone 8 happened. 1. The 2 pin got stupid and sort of laid out on it's way to the four. The bottom of the pin literally moved the 5 pin to the right just before the ball hit it. Now the 5 pin was out of position and did not have the proper angle to hit the 8 pin, and basically went straight back. 2. I saw several times where the ball hit the pocket and the head pin bounced off the 2 pin and ricocheted very quickly back to the middle and it ended up in between the ball and the 5 pin. At this angle both the head pin and the 5 pin went straight back, missing the 8 pin. Love your videos JR.
Thanks for this, explains a lot. I'm a straight-ish bowler, 11lb ball due to permanent back/ shoulder injury. Inside L foot stand on 25, bowl on 15 board, often leave the 5 pin on a bad night. It's a love hate relationship I have with ball deflection lol
I don't know if this is universal terminology but splitting the 8 - 9 is a high flush. They are the most visually appealing strike watching the 3 - 6 - 10 get caked. I can only get those 1 or 2 times a night and if you are off a board and a half high, you are getting the 4 - 7 -10. I hit the pocket all night, but with my accuracy, the best I can hope for is to hit the pocket around the 16 board and hope I drive the ball enough to carry the 10 pin. Mistake avoidance is every bit as important as hitting high flush. Many nights I alternate between leaving the 4 pin or 10 pin.
Yes, for us southpaws, it is a mirror image, as far as pins. Right hand pocket is the 1-3. Left hand pocket is the 1-2. When they talk boards, we can use the same numbers, just from left to right, instead of right to left. Their five board is the 5th board from the right gutter. Our five board is the 5th board from the left gutter.
Sooooo helpful. Are these charts posted anywhere. I’ve always searched for diagrams that help explain what happens when you leave a single pin. How do I get these charts?
I love your vids, they give more insight into the things I do or need to think about. If you had a L.O.F.T iron on sleeve patch, I'd definitely get for my league night shirt!
Great conversation topic. I would point to Jason Belmonte and his carry percentage as evidence that a higher entry angle is superior. Jason carries more hits than anyone and his entry angle is also on the higher side of the tour
JR Raymond - I don’t believe his results are due to speed. Over the years Belmo has made a deliberate decision to reduce speed, which has resulted in an increase in entry angle. Granted, he may have reduced speed in order to improve repeatability and may not have been due to wanting more entry angle. Nevertheless I don’t believe speed can account for the great carry percentage. More likely it’s the angle
His reduce in speed was to get his ball to read the middle of the lane better. In his early years you could basically shut him out by flooding the mids. Now theres nothing he cant do.
Belmo’s strike percentage would be at least half if his messengers didn’t save him. That messenger is the result of the higher entry angle. Without that messenger though he would leave more ten pins than any two bowlers on tour combined. Of course he combines entry angle, speed and rev rate better than anyone.
Jr love your videos, the solid eight is caused by the head pain getting twisted when it hits the tooth pain in such a way that it actually hits the 5 pen sliding E5 pain a little to the right then the ball hits it driving it straight back that's leaving the solid eight, just look up the video solid 8 in slow motion anyway love you videos keep up the good work
Well, our bowling alley I know doesn’t. The barely Maintain anything. Ive seen more balls come back with craters in them. They only oil occasionally. You have to clean tons of crud and dirt off the balls. A guy I was bowling with last week asked me “Do you think they check pin setters” and I replied “Well, they certainly don’t vacuum the carpeting or clean up sticky drink spills...so what do you think” he chuckled for two minutes.
JR, I would think most 9-pin leaves are due to too much hook and not enough roll. If you want the shots most time the ball leaves the deck behind the 8 pin, which means the ball was still hooking more than it should have been rolling. A lot of hook players balls are still hooking into the pocket (pin location) instead of the last phase (rolling). I see this myself when my ball gets to far out and comes back hooking at the improper angle, thus leaving the 9. Your thoughts on this?
#14 is a good weight with the technology of the balls we have available today. The cover stock keeps the ball from deflecting. It's also has a lot less wear and tear on your body. There's nothing wrong with a #14 ball just try not to mix and match with heavier balls in your bag. It will mess with your timing.
I got a new ball that rolls long, and I'm suddenly seeing a lot of stone 9's. It's been bewildering, thanks for the drawings, helps to understand what's happening. Not sure exactly how to fix it though.
Per other coaches I have seen, other options may be to slow down your ball speed or flatten out your throw angle. EX: If you normally throw at 18mph, try teaching yourself to through at 16mph. This will allow the rotation on the ball to start biting earlier getting it into its roll earlier on the lane. or Instead of hitting the 30 board (12') and breaking at the 10 board (45') Throw at the 20 board (12') and break at 10 (45'). This will give time for the ball to start into its roll and catch a slightly narrower angle hitting the pocket. There are many adjustments that can be made, it's a matter of what Adjustment you can control the best and what works for you.
This is good JR... my thing is how many bowlers are actually looking to split the 8-9 every shot? It’s impossible. Hitting the 1-3-5-9 makes way more sense from a physics standpoint.
If this was the case the study from years ago would have shown this.. the physics dont change but If you can show me the data to back it up I'd be happy to look at it
@@Tenpindoctors It's pretty simple. At the optimal position, which is entering the pocket at 17.5 inches from the gutter, more angle means more carry. Another consideration is that the 8, 9, 4, 6 pins are all considerably easier to make than the 10 pin. Even if your theory proves true, And lets say your "perfect" shot has an ever-so-slightly higher chance of a strike.... I bet averages are higher with leaving 4, 6, 8, and 9 compared to 7, 8, 9, and 10. The marginal pins from the single pins left factor into the equation as well. If I have a 95% chance to get a strike and a 5% chance to get an 8 pin, and I make 100% of my 8 pins (which I did in the 2018-2019 season), then that's better than say a 97% chance to strike and a 3% chance to leave a 7 pin, which I convert about 92% of the time according to PinPal. Not sure there's official "data," but 100% strike rates have been achieved with ThroBot at various speed/rpm combinations th-cam.com/video/kFvw6u8gYy4/w-d-xo.html
@@Tenpindoctors Ultimately, it is nearly impossible to separate speed/revs from angle of entry. However, speed dominant players, let's say a guy playing up the boards with 19/300 rpm, pretty much always leaves more corner pins, in my experience. I mean, anecdotally, if there was a way to marginally increase strike percentage by reducing angle of entry, then you'd see more professional bowlers purposefully trying to not split the 8-9. Belmo or Wes Malott throw a lot of strikes. They also tend to split the 8-9. So are they throwing strikes because of the speed and revs, and in spite of their high entry angle? Norm Duke leaves a lot more 10 pins comparatively. Is that because of his lack of speed and revs, or his lower angle of entry? Ultimately, I'll take speed and revs regardless of entry angle.
I'll tell you this.. the best arent playing to leave an easier single pin spare. All single pins are easy at the elite level. And I'll tell you right now, very VERY few guys on tour pay attention to the way their ball exits the deck. It's not easy to see even for the best. It's easy to see the flat ten but theres a reason you will see guys wrap 10 every time on one lane. They dont see it. And that's not saying that I'm better. I am not an elite bowler by any means With this being said, if one way held a higher strike percentage then you would see more trying to accomplish it. The physics doesn't change. The optimum entry angle is the optimum entry angle until they change the weight of the pins.... one could also argue that most 1,3,5,9 hits are splitting the 8-9 but it doesnt look like it because the 5 pin takes out the 8 so quick. The ones that look cool and you literally see the 8 and 9 split by the ball generally are from a really big angle... but the fact still remains that those higher angles increase the risk of those other leaves. Whether they are easier spares or not is irrelevant.
I guess there is a debate. Bowling XP video guy says if your ball covers 2/3 of what you see as you look down the lane, it will strike 85% of the time. I find it hard to believe that the light hits in your diagrams will take out the pins you claim. I'd like to see videos of those light hits taking out those pins. You know: Seeing is believing . . .
Isn't ball speed important, too? It seems that too fast or slow doesn't allow good pin-mixing action. I'll bet some of the weird leaves I see these days are due partly to the ball blowing through the rack like a cannon ball!
Yes ball speed is a factor but remember it's about deflection so the higher the ball speed the less angle you need generally because deflection goes down
Both ways strike 100% of the time if done perfectly unless there is a bad rack. But trying to get the ball to finish splitting the 8,9 make the stone 9 8 pin and 4 pin more likely if your angle is off just a bit. Or worse the dreaded 4,9.
If your angle is off a bit when trying to create 1,3,5,9 deflection you cannot stone a 9 pin. You wont 8 pin or 4 pin unless the racks are bad most times. Either are fine to try and create but I choose the 1359 option for the reasons stated above.
Just wonderful, I been tryin to find out about "how do you get good at bowling fast?" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Ever heard of - Piylivern Remarkable Predominance - (should be on google have a look ) ? It is a good one of a kind product for discovering how to up your bowling game quickly minus the hard work. Ive heard some incredible things about it and my cousin got excellent success with it.
I'm with you on 1 3 5 9. Most stone 8's are just pure tap. I recorded dozens and dozens of stone 8's on the tour broadcasts. I saw two ways the stone 8 happened. 1. The 2 pin got stupid and sort of laid out on it's way to the four. The bottom of the pin literally moved the 5 pin to the right just before the ball hit it. Now the 5 pin was out of position and did not have the proper angle to hit the 8 pin, and basically went straight back. 2. I saw several times where the ball hit the pocket and the head pin bounced off the 2 pin and ricocheted very quickly back to the middle and it ended up in between the ball and the 5 pin. At this angle both the head pin and the 5 pin went straight back, missing the 8 pin. Love your videos JR.
Great great explanation of how important is the exit of the bowling based on the angle of entry.
The content being produced continues to get better and better!
Thanks!
Thanks for this, explains a lot. I'm a straight-ish bowler, 11lb ball due to permanent back/ shoulder injury. Inside L foot stand on 25, bowl on 15 board, often leave the 5 pin on a bad night. It's a love hate relationship I have with ball deflection lol
No problem. Thanks for watching
Awesome very helpful especially after I steady leave 10 pins like it’s nothing smh thank you
Perfect explanation. Wish I was scoter to take lessons
Hi! It would be great if you can do a video to discuss how to adjust entry angel, so that we can do correction mid-games to get more strikes. Thanks.
I'll work on putting something together
JR Raymond thanks a lot!
Regent Gan th-cam.com/video/CoaZDDZ7AFA/w-d-xo.html
I don't know if this is universal terminology but splitting the 8 - 9 is a high flush. They are the most visually appealing strike watching the 3 - 6 - 10 get caked. I can only get those 1 or 2 times a night and if you are off a board and a half high, you are getting the 4 - 7 -10. I hit the pocket all night, but with my accuracy, the best I can hope for is to hit the pocket around the 16 board and hope I drive the ball enough to carry the 10 pin. Mistake avoidance is every bit as important as hitting high flush. Many nights I alternate between leaving the 4 pin or 10 pin.
As a left handed bowler, seems like I'd have to aim more at 1, 2, 5, 8 to get the same results. Would this be accurate?
Yeah id say so
Duh!
Yes, for us southpaws, it is a mirror image, as far as pins. Right hand pocket is the 1-3. Left hand pocket is the 1-2.
When they talk boards, we can use the same numbers, just from left to right, instead of right to left. Their five board is the 5th board from the right gutter. Our five board is the 5th board from the left gutter.
Yes, of course.
Sooooo helpful. Are these charts posted anywhere. I’ve always searched for diagrams that help explain what happens when you leave a single pin. How do I get these charts?
Thanks for the diagrams, puts alot in perspective
No problem. Thanks
I love your vids, they give more insight into the things I do or need to think about. If you had a L.O.F.T iron on sleeve patch, I'd definitely get for my league night shirt!
I have stickers but no patches unfortunately
I would love to see a video with what a 6 degree entry angle actually looks like on the lanes. That seems so small.
Is it fair to say that if you’re leaving too many 10 pins, it’s better to actively try and split the 8-9?
How do I get setup for a proper launch angle when my break point is supposed to be around board 9 or 10, but not sure how to start getting that angle
Yes!
Great conversation topic. I would point to Jason Belmonte and his carry percentage as evidence that a higher entry angle is superior. Jason carries more hits than anyone and his entry angle is also on the higher side of the tour
Is it though? Or is it the higher speed and rev rate?
I will say that the higher entry angle creates more off the wall hits
JR Raymond - I don’t believe his results are due to speed. Over the years Belmo has made a deliberate decision to reduce speed, which has resulted in an increase in entry angle. Granted, he may have reduced speed in order to improve repeatability and may not have been due to wanting more entry angle. Nevertheless I don’t believe speed can account for the great carry percentage. More likely it’s the angle
His reduce in speed was to get his ball to read the middle of the lane better. In his early years you could basically shut him out by flooding the mids. Now theres nothing he cant do.
Belmo’s strike percentage would be at least half if his messengers didn’t save him. That messenger is the result of the higher entry angle. Without that messenger though he would leave more ten pins than any two bowlers on tour combined. Of course he combines entry angle, speed and rev rate better than anyone.
JR do you think that there is an optimal rev rate range for generating the best carry? What do you estimate that would be?
That I wouldnt know. That seems to be a higher the better type of thing
Agree
Thanks a ton
Jr love your videos, the solid eight is caused by the head pain getting twisted when it hits the tooth pain in such a way that it actually hits the 5 pen sliding E5 pain a little to the right then the ball hits it driving it straight back that's leaving the solid eight, just look up the video solid 8 in slow motion anyway love you videos keep up the good work
The video is by team stat Pro 8 Pin leave in slow motion, I wanted to give credit where credit is due that's how I learned about it
Yup I misspoke
I really enjoy your videos keep up the good work especially when you have the camera set up when you're bowling regionals very informative
Is there somewhere we can get those diagrams?
First thing I ever learned, is your ball only hits four pins. 1 3 5 9. I agree higher percentage. Thanks for the information. Good stuff.
Appreciate the comment
The 1-3-5-9 still makes sense after all these years......
Very informative, thanks!
You're welcome. Thanks for the comment
MO Pinel talked about this last week, but he didn't say much about the possibilities of bad carry splitting the 8-9
Yeah I think theres more to it
MO Pinel doesn't say much about anything ,anymore. R.I.P.
HIGH ON THE 1,2 & 1,3 and pray.
I really wonder how many bowling centers actually check their machines to see if the pins are offset on a regular basis.
I'd be curious as well
Well, our bowling alley I know doesn’t. The barely Maintain anything. Ive seen more balls come back with craters in them. They only oil occasionally. You have to clean tons of crud and dirt off the balls. A guy I was bowling with last week asked me “Do you think they check pin setters” and I replied “Well, they certainly don’t vacuum the carpeting or clean up sticky drink spills...so what do you think” he chuckled for two minutes.
Good explanation but HOW do we correct an incorrect pindeck entry angle? 🤔
JR, I would think most 9-pin leaves are due to too much hook and not enough roll. If you want the shots most time the ball leaves the deck behind the 8 pin, which means the ball was still hooking more than it should have been rolling. A lot of hook players balls are still hooking into the pocket (pin location) instead of the last phase (rolling). I see this myself when my ball gets to far out and comes back hooking at the improper angle, thus leaving the 9. Your thoughts on this?
It's most times because of entry angle. Sometimes because the ball never gets into the roll phase but alot of times just angle
I am wondering what I need to hit as a left handed bowler
Just as often, the 1 pin deflects off the 2 pin and the 1 takes out the 5 pin "before" the ball and results in stone 8s or 9s.
Actually that's how it happens most times. I misspoke in this video
both my places have off set pins. One is terrible. Different rack every time.
Small Advice Watch out For the 3,10,7 or the 7,5,10.those are Nasty pick ups.
Is there anyway you can post that diagram you created. I think it will be a handy tool to have a around.
Email lifestractioncontroljr@gmail.com and I'll send it to ya
Hi JR, what us your stance on bowling ball weight? Many of the guys in league are going to 14 lbs and they seem to love it.
#14 is a good weight with the technology of the balls we have available today. The cover stock keeps the ball from deflecting. It's also has a lot less wear and tear on your body. There's nothing wrong with a #14 ball just try not to mix and match with heavier balls in your bag. It will mess with your timing.
Thanks Jay, appreciate your advise.
@@joemorales3035 your welcome:-)
I havent done much study of weight differences
@@Tenpindoctors there's be studies done with balls weighing 14 to 16 pounds and the #14 doesn't lose much energy going through the pins.
I got a new ball that rolls long, and I'm suddenly seeing a lot of stone 9's. It's been bewildering, thanks for the drawings, helps to understand what's happening. Not sure exactly how to fix it though.
Try a little surface. Hit the ball with a 3000 pad and take the shine off if its shiny
Per other coaches I have seen, other options may be to slow down your ball speed or flatten out your throw angle.
EX:
If you normally throw at 18mph, try teaching yourself to through at 16mph. This will allow the rotation on the ball to start biting earlier getting it into its roll earlier on the lane.
or Instead of hitting the 30 board (12') and breaking at the 10 board (45') Throw at the 20 board (12') and break at 10 (45'). This will give time for the ball to start into its roll and catch a slightly narrower angle hitting the pocket.
There are many adjustments that can be made, it's a matter of what Adjustment you can control the best and what works for you.
This is good JR... my thing is how many bowlers are actually looking to split the 8-9 every shot? It’s impossible. Hitting the 1-3-5-9 makes way more sense from a physics standpoint.
My point exactly. Thank you!
I thought you just had to get the ball to the 17 1/2 board and you don’t have to worry about the entry angle
Or I See one pin slides but still stays up been there seen it.
The math and data both suggest splitting the 8-9. You can leave stone 8s and stone 9s, but way fewer 7s and 10s
Please show this.
If this was the case the study from years ago would have shown this.. the physics dont change but If you can show me the data to back it up I'd be happy to look at it
@@Tenpindoctors
It's pretty simple. At the optimal position, which is entering the pocket at 17.5 inches from the gutter, more angle means more carry.
Another consideration is that the 8, 9, 4, 6 pins are all considerably easier to make than the 10 pin.
Even if your theory proves true, And lets say your "perfect" shot has an ever-so-slightly higher chance of a strike....
I bet averages are higher with leaving 4, 6, 8, and 9 compared to 7, 8, 9, and 10.
The marginal pins from the single pins left factor into the equation as well.
If I have a 95% chance to get a strike and a 5% chance to get an 8 pin, and I make 100% of my 8 pins (which I did in the 2018-2019 season), then that's better than say a 97% chance to strike and a 3% chance to leave a 7 pin, which I convert about 92% of the time according to PinPal.
Not sure there's official "data," but 100% strike rates have been achieved with ThroBot at various speed/rpm combinations
th-cam.com/video/kFvw6u8gYy4/w-d-xo.html
@@Tenpindoctors Ultimately, it is nearly impossible to separate speed/revs from angle of entry.
However, speed dominant players, let's say a guy playing up the boards with 19/300 rpm, pretty much always leaves more corner pins, in my experience.
I mean, anecdotally, if there was a way to marginally increase strike percentage by reducing angle of entry, then you'd see more professional bowlers purposefully trying to not split the 8-9.
Belmo or Wes Malott throw a lot of strikes. They also tend to split the 8-9. So are they throwing strikes because of the speed and revs, and in spite of their high entry angle?
Norm Duke leaves a lot more 10 pins comparatively. Is that because of his lack of speed and revs, or his lower angle of entry?
Ultimately, I'll take speed and revs regardless of entry angle.
I'll tell you this.. the best arent playing to leave an easier single pin spare. All single pins are easy at the elite level. And I'll tell you right now, very VERY few guys on tour pay attention to the way their ball exits the deck. It's not easy to see even for the best. It's easy to see the flat ten but theres a reason you will see guys wrap 10 every time on one lane. They dont see it. And that's not saying that I'm better. I am not an elite bowler by any means
With this being said, if one way held a higher strike percentage then you would see more trying to accomplish it. The physics doesn't change. The optimum entry angle is the optimum entry angle until they change the weight of the pins.... one could also argue that most 1,3,5,9 hits are splitting the 8-9 but it doesnt look like it because the 5 pin takes out the 8 so quick. The ones that look cool and you literally see the 8 and 9 split by the ball generally are from a really big angle... but the fact still remains that those higher angles increase the risk of those other leaves. Whether they are easier spares or not is irrelevant.
I guess there is a debate. Bowling XP video guy says if your ball covers 2/3 of what you see as you look down the lane, it will strike 85% of the time.
I find it hard to believe that the light hits in your diagrams will take out the pins you claim.
I'd like to see videos of those light hits taking out those pins.
You know: Seeing is believing . . .
What seriously upsets me is when I get a solid pocket shot and leave a 7 - 10 split. How the heck does that even happen? I blame a poor rack.
Isn't ball speed important, too? It seems that too fast or slow doesn't allow good pin-mixing action. I'll bet some of the weird leaves I see these days are due partly to the ball blowing through the rack like a cannon ball!
Yes ball speed is a factor but remember it's about deflection so the higher the ball speed the less angle you need generally because deflection goes down
I thought that the stone 8 that the ball doesn’t hit the 5 pin
Sometimes when it quiet I can hear the 10 pin laughing at me, $#* of *@#&$+!
Bowling balls be like: 😮
Sorry had to re start your video
The audio is not on
Yes it is. It's on your end
I split the 8 - 9 with my ball coming off the 3rd board at the breakpoint