First time I heard an atheist recognize that there is a grieving process to loss of faith rather than try to sugar coat it and make atheism the most awesome thing ever.
@@imusmoedegrasseAbsolutely. It's breaking the chains - religion was the opposite of freedom. I felt more fascination with the world, more joy in the honesty of reality. I really feel pretty much the opposite of what she's talking about. The Christian god is horrific, a murderer who has damned most of the human race with eternal torture. I find atheism very celebratory.
So l wonder why their so many sick people are out there that commit suicide and make drugs their god. Absence of God is why sin exists. Immorality, sexual or any other. Depression, mental illness. The rise of the Deism of Technology. The way people are submissive to technology and can't let go of technological devices. They get hypnotized by it. People get OCD with technology
It was Buddhism that helped me stop believing in a being that was always there to help. I would always think that 'there's always a reason' or 'someone up there likes me/doesn't like me' or even 'Why me?' None of that haunts me anymore. I am free to feel love and compassion just for the sake of love and compassion. Everyday I promise myself that I will not kill anything, I will not take anything that doesn't belong to me, I will never cheat on my wife, I will not lie and I will not take substances that would cause me to forget these precepts. None of that is god given.
To attribute "objective morality" to "god" is a very generous concession. In the Bible, the "chosen" tribe alleges that the one god arbitrarily chooses one tribe and it just so happens to be them! so a large portion of the Old Testament is this one tribe genociding all the other neighboring tribes to steal their land and property, which their descendants are now still doing to palestinians. How is this objective and how is this morality, and not self-serving and obviously immoral?
I mentioned on another TH-camr’s video that losing my faith meant that I could finally have the joyful freedom to say “I don’t know the answer to that“. But with that comes the flip side of the coin which is… horrible! I still want that comfort that was promised to me. I appreciate your video and what you’re doing to help those of us who have deconstructed.
Thank you. I have been an atheist since age 14 and have experienced much of what you explain here. Even today at the age of 68, I long for a crutch to lean on at certain times. Keep well.
The algorithm has pointed me to you, Britt. I'm currently binging on your videos. I've ordered 2 copies of your book, one for me and one for a psychologist friend. I'm looking forward to getting into it. I'm glad you mentioned at the end of this video that you weren't trying to lead us back to the church. That was the thought I had. I think I understand what you're meaning. I don't think I miss much not having a church or god anymore. Prayer, maybe. I used to love praying in tongues, but I can still do that if I want to. Community, definitely. I do miss being able to go anywhere in the world and walk into a church of my favourite denomination on a Sunday and meet people of the same persuasion. I still become awestruck at the sight of natural wonders. Justice. That's a hard one. I'm thinking........ I'll have to come back to that. Anyway, love your videos, Britt. I'll continue.
Brit, this was such a powerful and thought-provoking conversation. As someone who’s deeply immersed in exploring the emotional, psychological, and spiritual complexities of deconstruction-both personally and through my podcast Taste of Truth Tuesdays-this resonated on so many levels. The idea that we might have to choose between truth and well-being truly shook me to my core. 😮As a self-proclaimed truth seeker, it’s a question I’ve wrestled with but never framed so starkly. It’s such a powerful thought experiment and one I’m still sitting with. Your breakdown of the ‘10 Things That Die with the Death of God’ felt particularly relevant. Isolation, tradition, community, and the afterlife were all things I struggled with while unlearning harmful beliefs and trying to make sense of life without the structures I once relied on. The way you discussed objective morality, ultimate justice, and truth itself hit so close to home as I continue to examine what gives life meaning beyond rigid systems of control. Thank you for holding space for these conversations. It’s the kind of dialogue that lingers and sparks deeper reflection. I’d be incredibly honored if you would consider joining me on Taste of Truth Tuesdays to continue exploring these vital topics. Your perspective is making such an impact!❤ thank you so much 🙏
Well from my experience of watching the religious is that I noticed that I have a higher sense of morality than most of the religious people I've dealt with, and I'm an atheists with even more empathy than them too.
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism. What a cult!..
What would anyone expect? You can't connect to something false or fake. Donna Douglas is/was real. She can still be connected to because she is not a belief. Prayers go nowhere....they cast out into the eithers...without proper direction or connection.
Hmmm. More than 60 people witnessed a man in his 50's who had a brainstem stroke and could only grunt and make noises for 6 years plus, begin speaking clearly within 10 minutes of sincere prayer offered 30 feet away, out of his hearing. A nurse and physician prayed, "Dear Lord, you know how frustrated Terry is with his inability to communicate. If it is within your will for him to speak again, we pray that you grant him the ability to speak. In Jesus's Name. Amen. All i can tell you is what happened, as to the sudden change in his condition as documented in a skilled nursing facility's medical records. I have witnessed at least 5 other powerfully dramatic "coincidences."
And numerous warnings and cautions as well. A friend has a photo of a "glowing man-sized figure" behind her when she almost fell off a cliff but felt grabbed around the waist, and steadied. I know of families who were comforted several times by a male nurse at their dying mother's bedside, only to find no male nurses worked that floor, and no other staff saw a male enter or exit that room.
@@glenliesegang233 That's great prayer works for you. For me, pray harder was about as meaningful as placebo harder. Life was like never being seen as an individual.
Thank you so much for this video. You’ve captured so much of my life and thoughts in your words. I am subscribing and hope to learn more from you as I seek to live the best life I can, as I understand that to be. I hope your children are doing well. May you find much joy in this life 🫂🫂
There have been studies that have shown that people who know that others are praying for them to get well don't recover as quickly as those who do not know.
Thank you Brit. I’m one of the few who left the faith at 60. Even though that was 7 years ago, and I obsess over such content daily; you managed to articulate a few nuances in such a way, that caused me to pause, and enter into my journals. That’s quite rare!
Excellent points. What I miss most is a sense of community. I live outside the US where English is not commonly spoken. The kind of expats I have met over the past few decades has not been encouraging. I have come to accept the fact that I won't find much of a community.
I live in a country where English is not spoken, either. The expats I have met have been a mixed bag. OTOH, I have found a great community of locals and expats.
@@michaelnewsham1412 I'm glad to hear that. I have local friends and one expat friend but I lack the feeling of community. It's more a hodgepodge of individuals.
While a believer, I never lost notice of how violent the world is. That fact kept me from FULLY buying into the idea of a 'good' god at least. But, I chalked that up to a god that was mostly hands-off.
This was eye opening, I knew I missed what I no longer believed in and I work with people who go to church, meetings, eatings, celebrations that I know are more social than theological but they cannot shuck the theological because of the the stickiness that the ready made community holds. And you are right, you cannot make up your own traditions very well, other people act like this is a new dance they don't know the steps to and they really don't. Religious traditions are time tested and we act in unison, we dance in step and in time. I see the warnings of Nitch coming into being in many ways. I work with people who hold onto both, the Religion and Fascism and see no contradiction. You are right, placebo works, myth works, kidding ourselves works also. Very good vid. I will get your book.
What is the point of truth if u lose your comfort? The point is that u recognize lies, the point is that u realize that ''life is a gift'' is a dogma and your comfort has a high price that others pay. I suggest David Benatar for reading, he explained the asymmetry in pain and joy and why imposing life is not an ethical act.
While I agree, I personally find that people value different things. While I value truth, is it wrong for someone else to value comfort? I cannot find a consistent way to say so. I have found normative facts to be subjective, in that they all are about how things should be, and I don't think there is a reason to suspect an objective form of this. As such, normativity is hypothetical, an epistemology is valid if it serves your purposes. I want one that finds truth, but if one want to find comfort, they can select a different epistemology. I may find it offensive, but how can I say it is objectively wrong?
22:39 It is very difficult to accept these things and leaves you vulnerable to this threat from this hypothetical pastor. However twenty years from now your children will have your backing. 25 years after that their children will have an even larger community and also, you will have them. The best part, hopefully none of them will be traumatized by religion due to your sacrifice.
@@Lerian_V religion is made to serve the prideful ignorant people that seek power by placing themselves as middlemen to god. the catholics do it explicitly, but the protestants also do it implicitly via denominations and pastors.
Celtic, Germanic, and Roman cultures, among others, made substantial contributions to Western art, philosophy, law, and social structures. To say that without Christianity, there is no culture in the west is a bit ignorant, to say the least. WTF is a Christian atheist?
@@terezacarvalho3392 if we're all cultural christians, then we're cultural zoroastrians, pagans and polytheists, because lotsof ideas in Christianity were borrowed from all of them. its very convenient that Christians get to run their finger back along the historical timeline of religions and stop right at their religion and claim that this is where everything that's good in the west came from.
Christianity overtook aspects of culture when it spread in the West. Few Americans today that come from Europe as you mentioned have a history of culture in their family that is untouched by Christianity. A Christian atheist is simply someone who values Jesus as a moral teacher without superstition or the supernatural.
@@nononsensespirituality Moral teacher? Jesus taught slave morality, love for the oppressor, violence, hatred for family, etc. Luke 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not HATE father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple.". Luke 22:36 Sell all and buy a sword Matthew 10:34-36 NOT Peace, but a Sword and to divide families. Jesus taught nothing valuable.
Since there is not the slightest objective evidence of any god whatsoever then the idea of objective morality becomes somewhat moot. Choosing your god is as much as a preference as choosing red or yellow flowers.
Really? What does Dawkins say? The simplest life contains megabytes of digitally encoded information. And, at least another megabyte of non-encoded information. No random process generates digitally encoded base 64 information. Nor can sudden "orphan genes" appear in other life forms with no homologies to any other genes anywhere. Only a Superintelligence of some kind can, and "it" created two unique DNA replication schema which share no homologies.
Actually, no. The God or lack of one ,for you, influences how you make a choice in every single decision you make in your entire life, (to paraphrase Albert Einstein.)
@@glenliesegang233 again, the absence of knowing how it all began does not presuppose a god. It just means you and I don't know as of yet. It is beyond our ken as was the making of or understanding the intricacies of a computer was to the original authors of the Koran. Objective morality depends on the impacts we have on each other and the decisions we make as a result of that. Authority rests on our respect for others and how we manage responsibility. It appears to me that people are desperate for an ultimate manager and will argue for its existence despite the absence of any objective presence.
@@glenliesegang233 Your Einstein paraphrase makes no logical sense. Belief is the influence that affects choice not lack of belief. Or else your lack of belief in the tooth fairy, unicorn, Santa Claus, leprechauns and Easter bunny would be doing overtime on your life choices
I attend a Unitarian Universalist Church. I still have community. I think this is a good place to start to deconstruct, that's just my opinion. I grieved a long time over the realization that there isn't a God. I cried. I got depressed. Then I realized what a beautiful gift Life is and decided to enjoy it. I also work in healthcare and love helping people so that gives me a great sense of purpose. I strongly recommend volunteering. My local Athiest meetup group helps at the local food pantry. I suggest getting involved in local service projects.
As someone just a few years out of religion, I resonated with over half of these. I especially resonated with putting morality first, as I held on as a Christian atheist for a while, and losing a sense that I had the "right" morality at the end of it hit harder than the loss of the god years earlier.
This video was incredible. It really hits the nail on the head, at least for me, on most of the things I miss about faith in the Christian God. A couple of years ago I lost my father (he was 85 years old, so not entirely unexpected). I was already an atheist at that time, but at the funeral I gave a "sermon" based on the "faith, hope, and love" passage in Corinthians as a eulogy. I've come to think of the death of my father as a parallel to the death of my Father. While I didn't kill my father, I did kill my Father -- in a way -- and still suffer a kind of guilt over this Patricide. But in reflecting about my father's death, I still have "conversations" with him, in that when I'm facing struggles that he faced in life, I can (sort of) ask his advice by interacting with his legacy that remains in my memories of him, realizing that at this point those memories are at least in part a fiction, perhaps a fiction loosely (getting looser every year) based on history. While I cannot bring myself to _believe_ that my father still exists in some "spiritual" way, perhaps he's in some sort of "heaven" as well and my "prayers" to him are "heard" by him and I can actually "hear" his answers back to me, what I can do is temporarily _suspend my disbelief_ in a way similar to how I read a novel. I sometimes wonder if this suspension of disbelief is perhaps a good substitution for religious faith. But your video here seems to point to much, much more that needs to be replaced. This is especially true of the loss of a religious community combined with family. Anyway, thank you for getting my brain churning this morning!
@@skylinefever interesting question. I've often regarded "faith" as, instead of belief without evidence, a flexibility of mind that is used in various ways, including the suspension of disbelief we use to engage with good fiction. I've used Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry as an example. Take the parallel postulate (given a line L1 there is exactly one line L2 that is parallel to L1 passing through a single point that is not on L1) and suspend your disbelief about a specific negation of that postulate (instead of one parallel line, there are zero parallel lines, or there are an infinite number of parallel lines, through that point). Keep suspending your disbelief about this alternate postulate until you find a contradiction that proves the original postulate to be analytically true via _reductio ad absurdum_ and call it a day. Then you do so and wind up creating an entirely new geometry that is actually more useful and elegant than Euclid's original for different kinds of questions where Euclidean geometry is cumbersome and clunky. Does this require a religious mindset, or even encourage a religious mindset? I don't think so, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
@@brucee6524 the reason I look into it is because I wonder how many people will only be able to "get" certain religions by having the correct set of genetic proclivities and set of personality traits.
4. Truth is still good for survival, or (importantly) any other goal you might have. My impression is that Hoffman's examples are contrived to force the contratian results that he wants, but that *in general* evolving to perceive the truth is also the best way to see the things required to avoid extinction. We may find that our perception emphasizes, even over-emphasizes, certain things, but we can take that into account. And, just as for objective morality, free will is (at least!) as difficult a question for theists as for atheists. Accounting for free will in the presence of an omnipotent God is at least as hard as accounting for it in the presence of physics. There are good compatibilist solutions in both cases; I would say that it's easier for an atheist in fact.
We are going to discuss "objective morality" and just pretend that Ethics do not exist? Are we going to pretend that having a Conscience isn't a thing that is naturally occuring and can be found and demonstrated in every single culture and civilization? And are we going to pretend that by the age of four years old, people aren't already beginning to adapt their thinking and behavior to understand that if they do commit some sort of act which hurts another person, they wouldn't want that to happen to themselves? Are we going to pretend that a four year old can't realize that if he or she steals something...and there are no witnesses, that the four year old didn't in fact witness himself stealing something? Are we going to ignore the fact that when people do things that are socially unacceptable and cause lasting harm that the person might in fact feel regret? The reason why I have such disdain for philosophy, is philosophy has such a high regard of itself for the act of polishing words and making word salads.
All of that is subjective morality, not grounded in anything other than human experience. It's something we can still work with but it isn't quite as solid as universal moral principles. Take psychopaths or sociopaths for example who do not experience the conscience you mention, nor regret.
The hardest things for me were 1. Community. There is no particularly unified get together s and broader community for atheists. 2. The belief that someone is in charge rather than just random chance of the universe crewing you over or stamping you out because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. The realization that nothing is guiding anything to me is in the song “here to forever” with the realization there is nothing guiding the world for the good of all.
Great video. These are ideas I've thrown around for many years now. I've actually started leaning towards viewing religion, or at least "belief" as useful fiction...
Can you think of a single "use" for religion that can't also be achieved WITHOUT religion? If there were a unique benefit to religion, I might be more tolerant and think of it as a white lie, but with whatever good is in religion there also comes too much wickedness. Humans can form charitable organizations that aren't ALSO guilty of atrocities throughout history. Humans can invent a morality that doesn't make excuses for slavery, child trafficking, genocide, selling daughters into marriage...and so much more. We can do good works without tolerating all the horrors endorsed by the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah. Let's have Bingo Night WITHOUT stapling a guy to a cross, and just enjoy ourselves.
@@imusmoedegrasseTrue in some cases. Depends on how the religion responds to secular influences as well. Some religion are more open to reform than others.
I think the Plato Noble Lie may have been the greatest writing of such a concept. I guess what I never could find was how a society built on lies is able to survive when people know they were lied to.
All of this resonates with my own experience. I think I was fortunate to have gone through the process of deconstruction/reconstruction prior to the internet. The online atheist movement can be aggressively evangelical. It's often so intent on removing a cancerous but functional narrative that it forgets how important it is to replace it with a better one.
The problem with objective morality is that it doesn't exist even with a god or gods. No God (certainly not the Abrahamic God) was ever bound by it, and God is ultimately just another subject anyway. The grounding of "objectivity" in God is just subjectivity once removed, enforced by "might makes right" morality.
Correct! If we are talking about the absolute nature of reality morality by definition is a process of pick and choose. A set of preferences. As such, morality is anything but objective or absolute. Whatever is deemed as absolute must be the holder of everything. There cannot be any form of subjectivity in the sphere of the absolute. Objectivity can only be associated with the absolute, and therefor impartial to any form of morality. However, since ordinary beings do not apprehend the absolute nature of reality (although they are part of it) a set of appropriate but temporary values are useful in order to open up the heart of understanding. As such, moral guidelines may contribute towards a deeper understanding. If understanding of the temporary nature of morality arise in the mind of the practitioner later, that is one of the signs that the practice is bearing fruit and ultimate nature is being approached.
I always saw 700 Club Karens using God and Jesus as an excuse for their preferences. They couldn't just say the wanted AD&D and heavy metal gone because it gets their panties in a twist. So they just said God and Jesus when banning it. Then they blamed secularist instututional schooling when their kids grow up and don't kiss God's ass.
I have had a long and winding road to my recent full on atheism. You have giving me much to think about. Thanks. (I say somewhat sarcastically lol) Think I'll read your book.
Great little essay!!! Very succinct! Glad to have found your channel! I worked out most of these things as a teenager (I'm 68) thanks to science fiction and mentors like Bertrand Russel....I found the rainbow family of living light as the best solution for community.
Wow! Looking at your history and you came as hot out of the gate as Brandon at Mindshift! I always assumed he'd slow down at some point, though its been a year and so far no. Best of luck with your endeavor, I will take some time to watch what you've done so far.
I would like to know how Christians find their objective morality. There are two places they suggest, the first being the Bible which contains such a mix of moral and immoral commands from god I don't know anyone who follows all the moral dictates in it. The other is what is "written on our hearts" which differs wildly from person to person.
The are losses are real but generally there is a net gain. Here are some of the things you gain from losing God: 1. Higher self esteem. We are not a worthless and sinfull people by default. 2. Unconditional love and acceptance for a wider variety of people: gays and other sexually "immoral" people, etc 3. Elimination of the most unfair justice system ever: eternal punishment for a finite crime. 4. A better chance for equality across countries and races: no special chosen people, etc 5. The vast benefits that we constantly gain from the pursuit of truth are too numerous to mention. Longer life span, psychological insights, etc. 6. Putting a higher value on our life on earth since there's no heaven to look forward to 7. Processing of our fear of death on firmer grounds; We have nothing to fear since it's gonna be just like before we were born. Removal of the fear of eternal suffering in hell for the vast majority of people 8. Creating space for more inclusive rituals/celebrations. Rituals are not tied to religion: graduations, weddings, etc. Eventually more secular rituals will come about. Btw, happy holidays. 9. Pursuing peace amongst ourselves with a more flexible mindset. Removing the following destructive models: - God commands us to kill sinners - Some people are evil and/or demon possessed - Some people's lifstyle can cause God to punish a whole population. 10. A more flexible approach to defining our morality that can grow with our increasing insights, evolve to suit our changing situations and widen to include a wider variety of people
That's just gobbledygook you heard from a church tract. I know myself very well, and have seen zero evidence of anything divine. By your logic, if I studied medicine more, I would learn more about the divine? Or if I studied psychiatry and analyzed myself, I would know more about the divine? That's just presupposing that the divine had anything to do with who I am or what I am. Justify your presupposition first.
I disagree 100% about morality and want to drop the video here. And so do most atheist philosophers. Recently, statistics show most of them believe in objective morality. It does not mean one needs a deity.
Thanks for your video. About your brother. My brother-in-law got out of prison and was going to church for 6 years and doing great on his job and then fell back into his old ways of gambling drug abuse and then had his car repo ‘d & lost a really good job) he is 64 years old. I would not dare challenge his faith when I was witnessing all of this positivity. But now I question my silence. I have an intuition that real progress in his life should have been anchored in realistic therapy and steered away from a world of church going that in my opinion was a bandaid and did not offer real healing. He lives 800 miles away and may be homeless for all we know and stealing again. I like your point that we can eventually detach from believing in an invisible god but still recognize that Christianity has some nice features. The void has to be addressed I would think it must be harder for once deeply practicing Christians that get educated and stop believing. But there is a real dark downside to getting indoctrinated too. With your imagination you make up all kinds of false patterns under your perceived belief in a heavenly being. what about the belief in the devil? That can make you second guess yourself your whole life too. Was it god? was it the devil? was it just me? Was it nature? was it nurture? how can I be trusted to know? My point is there must be a whole lot of confused people out there because someone lied to us instead of just being intellectually honest and say the simple words we don’t know but here’s the attitude you can have instead. Take your 70-90 years (if your lucky to live a long life) don’t have shame and go out and find out what life has in store for you. PS people are full of it in all walks of life. They like watching violence, doing weird diets, fanning the pages of the bible and putting their finger down on a verse, stroking their ego etc. If we started with an honest premise I am almost certain we would have a lot less perversion, self doubt, deviations, addictions, confusion, and self righteousness and so on. PS I subscribed to your channel
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism. What a cult!....
At 25:16 "It's the job of the individual to create a life that's worth living for them." I have to disagree because the world (not humans) has to create a life (for humans) that's worth living. So what do we got? Well we got a universe that's given humans time and time is what humans (also with help such as A.I.) must fight for. At the end of the day you got an Immortalist world wherein you have the clear and simple choice of either continuing to exist or exit (and maybe there could even be some kind of supernatural life after death who knows). It's a type of world where everyone simply lives in it. They (plus again the A.I. thing, merging with it a possibility)can explore the universe, continue to advance civilization, search for the meaning of life etc without ever having to look at a clock. Creating meaning for oneself is exactly what religion is all about but rather giving people meaning on a silver platter the meaning creation is shifted to the individual instead. I would not call that progress. Death thus far defines life and rules over all.
Although I don't agree with the violent portions of the Bible, and I don't base my spiritual life and understanding on the Christian world view, I definitely still recognize my spirituality and divinity existing within the universe. I feel that within my deepest being, and no one can dissuade me from that. I could never be an atheist, although i have turned away from the Judeo Christian interpretation of God in Bible.
Consumerist nihilism is not the only alternative after the death of god. Epicurean philosophy furnishes methods of self-care, community, monthly gatherings and some ritual, and a cosmological naturalist doctrine with no supernatural claims. There are many other alternatives that dignify life.
1. Objective morality - objective morality based on subjective interpretation of ancient scripture is subjective morality. You just learn to see that it really is subjective and always was.
While we do not have the fiction of ultimate justice, what it gives us is awareness of the gravity of injustice. When kids starve in Ethopia, that's it for them. That was their one chance. When Joseph _Angel of Death_ Mengele escapes Nazi-hunters and dies in his seventies, that's a mark on our history we are never able to live down. And these motivate us towards building a better world where such horrors never happen again (or at least happen less.) In traditions with Karma and reincarnation, there's a notion that the suffering deserve their lot for past wrongs, and we need to take no effort to restore balance because the universe will provide this in the end. But no, the reality is people do suffer, often with no retribution against active agents, and no relief or rescue. And to the rest of us, restitution for that injustice can only be paid forward.
Been an atheist for 58 years now, been faithfully and (mostly) happily married for forty, raised three wonderful children (all atheist), have grandchildren, friends and relatives, and a wonderful community, have had ideals outside myself. The problems you are talking about here seem to be projections of your former religion.
It's interesting that the very problems that are brought to the forefront here, contain in them some of solutions needed within and that seems to be skipped? Beyond the hedge, embraced by loneliness, and able to create anything you wish (metaphorically) is where the life of an individual truly begins. That's not to say it doesn't absolutely suck for a while, but it changes to something else eventually.
1. But there's no objective basis for morality even for theists! "It's good to do what God says" is no more objective than "It's good to do what produces the greatest good for the greatest number" or any other moral system. Theists like to claim that it is, but that's just itself a subjective belief. I guess you're saying that getting out of theism means realizing that that's the case, and that you never had an objective basis for morality in the first place. Which is fine, I can see that that might be traumatic. (Never having been a theist myself, I don't directly have your experience, but I can imagine it must be painful, and appreciate your openness here.)
The Mormon example of raising children is not the same experience of other Christians in the U.S, especially when you raise a family when you do not live away from where you grew up. Other Christian denominations have a network to where they can move and find church members who will help you move in. Many people move for jobs, a change of scenery, etc, and they don't have the support of family. Finding a church community and developing that relationship with that community where you feel close to them is a long-term process. The belonging to a community is only effective if you grow up in that community and your family is around. In the U.S. whether you are religious or not, chances are you're starting over again, and that is lonely whether you are religious or not.
- There was community and meditative utility in religion. Being a theist that cannot justify the existence of a god anymore, is not the same as an atheist who has come to know that supernatural deities never existed. Parts of the religious delusion have not been totally extinguished. How can something be lost when it never existed?
We don’t teach astrology in astronomy class. We don’t teach alchemy in chemistry class. We don’t teach creationism in a biology class either. Intelligent design uses the natural with assumptions and faith to draw conclusions. That sounds like religion not science.
What is your take on process philosophy? At its base, it challenges assumptions about God/Divine, but it is open to the possibilities of human/sentient contributions to "creation" which may mean that we are in a position to develop a truly human/sentient value system that goes beyond a kind of brute survival of the fittest whether we use the "G" word or just call it a higher level of evolution. It may mean to decide that certain values such as love, compassion for all beings, perhaps others are what we will champion--much as societies decided that self-governance was superior to being ruled by established elites--its successes to be determined. I also see value in meditation, call it a form of prayer if you wish. Perhaps, some of the Buddhists have a better handle on these things than we do in the West.
In the beginning you mentioned studying the future of religion. I’m curious what your thoughts are on where religion is going. I’ve read studies that show Gen z (my generation) can be as high as 50% non religious.
You are a wonderful guide and teacher! I like how you view deliberately talking to oneself as a direct means of connecting sub conscious to conscious wisdom or knowledge to better focus on matters at hand. fyi. Me, born raised Roman Catholic, Jesuit taught. Pursuit of objective truth led to recognizing my own need for myth to comfort me to the idea of my own death. We are energy and matter. Non-life begot life. Life begot us/me. Great scholarship and clarity to your wonderful insights! thank you!
I have been an atheist my entire life (63 years) so I never felt the mourning of the loss of faith/religion in a direct manner. The closest would be something like learning the magical Santa didn't exist and how that felt learning that truth. While I cannot claim to know an after life and or God does not exist, religions and their holy books to some degree promote skepticism from a critical perspective. Especially for heavy thinkers, you are left with the psychology of it all, where you can't just look at it from a purely intellectual perspective, but you have to consider the emotional component as well. From this perspective, the saying "ignorance is bliss" has more meaning and value. In a nutshell, the emotional component is far more important than the intellectual component. You sort of hit on this in your video where you have to question the value of the truth at the expense of emotional pain and potential loss of enthusiasm. Going from everything matters to nothing matters. The truth certainly has value, but it appears that it does not have value across the board. Like most things in life, it seems to be about balance. Religions took hundreds of years for humans to fully develop with the human condition in mind to the point that even non-believers can relate to a lot of the messaging and it can give rise to a Christian atheist who sees this value while not believing the magical bits tied in.
"Religions took hundreds of years for humans to fully develop with the human condition in mind to the point that even non-believers can relate to a lot of the messaging and it can give rise to a Christian atheist who sees this value while not believing the magical bits tied in." Religion is nothing more then alleviating the fear of death by undermining the gravitas and significance of it. Examples of it include "God" has created (or allowed it) and is in control of death, death is nothing more then a second long soul sleep, even the bad guys are immortal in hell and so go on the Theistic explanations. Since everyone dies (A.I. plus medical science perhaps...one day soon may be able to change that condition) the business of religion is guaranteed to stay. Imagine if the majority believed that cells caused cancer instead of sin. If the majority believes that Jesus is going to save them then who or what is going to save them from cancer? Would they even care? All the magic stuff happens after death. How very convenient.
There is no objective _creed_ and yes, there's nothing metaphysical that informs the material world. However, there is a strong ground for morality in that our disposition to cooperate with each other (which is greater by order of magnitudes than any other creature we've observed) features a fundamental contract we have with our crew (clan, tribe, family, whatever). Some of these are pretty simple, such as avoiding harm, and if someone has a critical need (food, water, warmth, etc) prioritize helping them out. This is enforced not from divine power, but because there's a whole lot in the world (predators, elements, hunger, thirst, plague, rival tribes, time itself) that are glad to kill us dead, and so we really can use the force multiplier that is having more guys on our team. Since we have communities of thousands and nations of millions with giant infrastructure, we're not used to thinking about what happens when all your friends ditch you because you committed a serious faux pas. When these elements are near threats, it serves as more of a reminder to be polite.
The death of god wouldn't be the death of objective morality. Any morality that is dictated by a god's whims is the exact opposite of "objective". Today, it's moral for god to command the Israelites to take 23,000 virgin little girls for themselves, but tomorrow it's not? What kind of mental gymnastics did you have to do to decide THAT is objective morality? Relying on a single individual to dictate your morality simply because he's more powerful than you is no different than letting the strongest army decide what is moral. It is 100% subjective. I have to disagree with your stance on ultimate justice, as well. Biblically, there was never any justice. I'll use your example of the little boy: if the mom and boyfriend found Jesus, they would go to heaven. If the little boy was not a believer, he would go to hell. There is neither justice nor mercy in that scenario, but that's exactly what the bible says will happen. Your reward is 100% based on whether you believed in Jesus or not. Your crimes are immaterial and your suffering is immaterial.
Thank you. I like that you mention being careful not to push too hard against things like christianity where they are performing an actual function like keeping something worse at bay or literally being the thing that keeps somebody alive.
If people absolutely hate every moment of their existence, but don't end it because hellfire and brimstone, what is so great about it? I think it would be better if people who can't enjoy life just get it over with. I argue that if the USA didn't have hellfire and brimstone sermons in so many people, we would have numbers like Japan or South Korea.
The "death" of objective morality implies the concept is alive with God. Even if true, all we would have is objective statements of feeling about a subjective interpretation of an objective morality. Which would appear similarly to not having an objective morality at all
Seek the truth. By finding it, by feeling it's hardships you should be better able to discern and appreciate how you got your turn to ride the roller coaster of life. You as a human get to differentiate the beauty from the ugly. If you don't appreciate it then you are not one of his people. That's fine you can just be part of the chaff. Through the fire comes the refinement
"I tell you that man has no more tormenting care than to find someone to whom he can hand over as quickly as possible that gift of freedom with which the miserable creature is born." Fyodor Dostoyevsky, _The Brothers Karamozov_
When you speak of the community aspect, you seem to be forgetting that there was a time when Mormonism didn't exist. And you don't seem to remember that Mormon rituals are theirs alone. Had you been born into a different family, other than Mormon, none of these things would have taken place.
If you base your morality on god you base your moral judgments on someone else’s interpretations and preferences of what is a moral standard to follow. As such, you are no closer of following an ‘objective’ standard of morality since it is based on just another interpreter of what your god wants. In this case it all comes down to faith and who you’re going to trust. An objective standard of morality is a false idea since it cannot be based on the absolute nature of reality but a set of preferences in regards to conduct based on a selective and biased interpretation of reality. It would be much better if humanity came to an agreement on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable without the involvement with outer agents such as a god of some sort. At the end of the day, we humans do not agree on what the ultimate nature of reality is and thus cannot base an universal morality and code of conduct on such foundations. Far from all humans acknowledge an existing supreme power under whom we are all subjects.
First time I heard an atheist recognize that there is a grieving process to loss of faith rather than try to sugar coat it and make atheism the most awesome thing ever.
Really? That seems strange, as most of us talk about how we tried so hard to hang onto our faith
@@imusmoedegrasseAbsolutely. It's breaking the chains - religion was the opposite of freedom. I felt more fascination with the world, more joy in the honesty of reality. I really feel pretty much the opposite of what she's talking about. The Christian god is horrific, a murderer who has damned most of the human race with eternal torture. I find atheism very celebratory.
This is why I could not tolerate the kind of atheist that is bent on removing all religions.
I see it is removing a tool for others.
@@imusmoedegrasse Me too but I lost a lot of friends.
Well, as an atheist who never believed in God, I never had to go through a grieving process.
Religion tells you that you're sick and then tells you that religion is the cure.
So l wonder why their so many sick people are out there that commit suicide and make drugs their god. Absence of God is why sin exists. Immorality, sexual or any other. Depression, mental illness. The rise of the Deism of Technology. The way people are submissive to technology and can't let go of technological devices. They get hypnotized by it. People get OCD with technology
These losses are necessary to gain the freedom that comes with discovering the truth. "The Truth shall set you free!"
It was Buddhism that helped me stop believing in a being that was always there to help. I would always think that 'there's always a reason' or 'someone up there likes me/doesn't like me' or even 'Why me?'
None of that haunts me anymore. I am free to feel love and compassion just for the sake of love and compassion. Everyday I promise myself that I will not kill anything, I will not take anything that doesn't belong to me, I will never cheat on my wife, I will not lie and I will not take substances that would cause me to forget these precepts. None of that is god given.
Love this!
To attribute "objective morality" to "god" is a very generous concession. In the Bible, the "chosen" tribe alleges that the one god arbitrarily chooses one tribe and it just so happens to be them! so a large portion of the Old Testament is this one tribe genociding all the other neighboring tribes to steal their land and property, which their descendants are now still doing to palestinians. How is this objective and how is this morality, and not self-serving and obviously immoral?
So thought-provoking and helpful, authentic and practical! I’m loving your videos Britt. Thank you for sharing with us 😊
I mentioned on another TH-camr’s video that losing my faith meant that I could finally have the joyful freedom to say “I don’t know the answer to that“. But with that comes the flip side of the coin which is… horrible! I still want that comfort that was promised to me. I appreciate your video and what you’re doing to help those of us who have deconstructed.
So true! It is hard.
I can’t get enough of your videos!
The good news is that I no longer have a crutch. The bad news is that I no longer have a crutch. I appreciate your insights.
Thank you. I have been an atheist since age 14 and have experienced much of what you explain here. Even today at the age of 68, I long for a crutch to lean on at certain times.
Keep well.
The algorithm has pointed me to you, Britt. I'm currently binging on your videos. I've ordered 2 copies of your book, one for me and one for a psychologist friend. I'm looking forward to getting into it. I'm glad you mentioned at the end of this video that you weren't trying to lead us back to the church. That was the thought I had. I think I understand what you're meaning. I don't think I miss much not having a church or god anymore. Prayer, maybe. I used to love praying in tongues, but I can still do that if I want to. Community, definitely. I do miss being able to go anywhere in the world and walk into a church of my favourite denomination on a Sunday and meet people of the same persuasion. I still become awestruck at the sight of natural wonders. Justice. That's a hard one. I'm thinking........ I'll have to come back to that. Anyway, love your videos, Britt. I'll continue.
Wow. Thank you. In a very combative space where most interactions are aimed at winning the point, this is a very thought-provoking video.
Brit, this was such a powerful and thought-provoking conversation. As someone who’s deeply immersed in exploring the emotional, psychological, and spiritual complexities of deconstruction-both personally and through my podcast Taste of Truth Tuesdays-this resonated on so many levels.
The idea that we might have to choose between truth and well-being truly shook me to my core. 😮As a self-proclaimed truth seeker, it’s a question I’ve wrestled with but never framed so starkly. It’s such a powerful thought experiment and one I’m still sitting with.
Your breakdown of the ‘10 Things That Die with the Death of God’ felt particularly relevant. Isolation, tradition, community, and the afterlife were all things I struggled with while unlearning harmful beliefs and trying to make sense of life without the structures I once relied on. The way you discussed objective morality, ultimate justice, and truth itself hit so close to home as I continue to examine what gives life meaning beyond rigid systems of control.
Thank you for holding space for these conversations. It’s the kind of dialogue that lingers and sparks deeper reflection.
I’d be incredibly honored if you would consider joining me on Taste of Truth Tuesdays to continue exploring these vital topics. Your perspective is making such an impact!❤ thank you so much 🙏
Well from my experience of watching the religious is that I noticed that I have a higher sense of morality than most of the religious people I've dealt with, and I'm an atheists with even more empathy than them too.
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism. What a cult!..
Were these people saying they believed but didn’t really believe?
@@rickhenderson8002 religious people are bigots that pretend to be moral.
absolutely.. the most deviant people I've ever known( and I'm an old lady) were "Christians"
Belief and prayer are the earliest documents of the placebo effect.
What would anyone expect? You can't connect to something false or fake. Donna Douglas is/was real. She can still be connected to because she is not a belief. Prayers go nowhere....they cast out into the eithers...without proper direction or connection.
Hmmm. More than 60 people witnessed a man in his 50's who had a brainstem stroke and could only grunt and make noises for 6 years plus, begin speaking clearly within 10 minutes of sincere prayer offered 30 feet away, out of his hearing.
A nurse and physician prayed,
"Dear Lord, you know how frustrated Terry is with his inability to communicate. If it is within your will for him to speak again, we pray that you grant him the ability to speak. In Jesus's Name. Amen.
All i can tell you is what happened, as to the sudden change in his condition as documented in a skilled nursing facility's medical records.
I have witnessed at least 5 other powerfully dramatic "coincidences."
And numerous warnings and cautions as well. A friend has a photo of a "glowing man-sized figure" behind her when she almost fell off a cliff but felt grabbed around the waist, and steadied.
I know of families who were comforted several times by a male nurse at their dying mother's bedside, only to find no male nurses worked that floor, and no other staff saw a male enter or exit that room.
@@glenliesegang233 That's great prayer works for you.
For me, pray harder was about as meaningful as placebo harder.
Life was like never being seen as an individual.
@glenliesegang233 nonsense
I'm so glad this channel exists.
Thank you.
Thanks!
An atheist who examines atheism with the same objective honestly as she examines religion. Excellent.
Thank you so much for this video. You’ve captured so much of my life and thoughts in your words.
I am subscribing and hope to learn more from you as I seek to live the best life I can, as I understand that to be.
I hope your children are doing well.
May you find much joy in this life 🫂🫂
I'm Australian. I'm used to everything wanting to kill me ;-)
Wonderful channel. I’m glad it shows up in my feed
There have been studies that have shown that people who know that others are praying for them to get well don't recover as quickly as those who do not know.
Thank you for your videos
Visiting from Mindshift. I've subscribed to your channel, and I look forward to seeing more of your videos.
Thank you Brit. I’m one of the few who left the faith at 60. Even though that was 7 years ago, and I obsess over such content daily; you managed to articulate a few nuances in such a way, that caused me to pause, and enter into my journals. That’s quite rare!
I love uour videos! The permanent and large subtitles are not visually comfortable for me however.
Will you do a video on death with dignity/ end of life due to no quality of life?
Excellent points. What I miss most is a sense of community. I live outside the US where English is not commonly spoken. The kind of expats I have met over the past few decades has not been encouraging. I have come to accept the fact that I won't find much of a community.
I live in a country where English is not spoken, either. The expats I have met have been a mixed bag. OTOH, I have found a great community of locals and expats.
@@michaelnewsham1412 I'm glad to hear that. I have local friends and one expat friend but I lack the feeling of community. It's more a hodgepodge of individuals.
Nice to hear someone talking about these losses. No going back.
You're right, you can't go back
While a believer, I never lost notice of how violent the world is. That fact kept me from FULLY buying into the idea of a 'good' god at least. But, I chalked that up to a god that was mostly hands-off.
The universe is violent because even every atom contains zn slmost unimaginable amount of energy.
Great work young lady. Keep it up.
This was eye opening, I knew I missed what I no longer believed in and I work with people who go to church, meetings, eatings, celebrations that I know are more social than theological but they cannot shuck the theological because of the the stickiness that the ready made community holds. And you are right, you cannot make up your own traditions very well, other people act like this is a new dance they don't know the steps to and they really don't.
Religious traditions are time tested and we act in unison, we dance in step and in time. I see the warnings of Nitch coming into being in many ways. I work with people who hold onto both, the Religion and Fascism and see no contradiction. You are right, placebo works, myth works, kidding ourselves works also. Very good vid. I will get your book.
What is the point of truth if u lose your comfort? The point is that u recognize lies, the point is that u realize that ''life is a gift'' is a dogma and your comfort has a high price that others pay. I suggest David Benatar for reading, he explained the asymmetry in pain and joy and why imposing life is not an ethical act.
While I agree, I personally find that people value different things. While I value truth, is it wrong for someone else to value comfort?
I cannot find a consistent way to say so. I have found normative facts to be subjective, in that they all are about how things should be, and I don't think there is a reason to suspect an objective form of this. As such, normativity is hypothetical, an epistemology is valid if it serves your purposes. I want one that finds truth, but if one want to find comfort, they can select a different epistemology. I may find it offensive, but how can I say it is objectively wrong?
22:39 It is very difficult to accept these things and leaves you vulnerable to this threat from this hypothetical pastor. However twenty years from now your children will have your backing. 25 years after that their children will have an even larger community and also, you will have them. The best part, hopefully none of them will be traumatized by religion due to your sacrifice.
Religion : the oldest grift.
Prideful ignorance : the oldest sickness.
@@Lerian_V religion is made to serve the prideful ignorant people that seek power by placing themselves as middlemen to god. the catholics do it explicitly, but the protestants also do it implicitly via denominations and pastors.
It was at best a Plato "Noble lie."
Celtic, Germanic, and Roman cultures, among others, made substantial contributions to Western art, philosophy, law, and social structures. To say that without Christianity, there is no culture in the west is a bit ignorant, to say the least. WTF is a Christian atheist?
Well, I supose, it's nonsense spirituality.
@@terezacarvalho3392 if we're all cultural christians, then we're cultural zoroastrians, pagans and polytheists, because lotsof ideas in Christianity were borrowed from all of them. its very convenient that Christians get to run their finger back along the historical timeline of religions and stop right at their religion and claim that this is where everything that's good in the west came from.
Or simply an Atheist that camefrom Chritoanity.
Christianity overtook aspects of culture when it spread in the West. Few Americans today that come from Europe as you mentioned have a history of culture in their family that is untouched by Christianity. A Christian atheist is simply someone who values Jesus as a moral teacher without superstition or the supernatural.
@@nononsensespirituality Moral teacher? Jesus taught slave morality, love for the oppressor, violence, hatred for family, etc. Luke 14:26: “If anyone comes to me and does not HATE father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters-yes, even their own life-such a person cannot be my disciple.". Luke 22:36 Sell all and buy a sword Matthew 10:34-36 NOT Peace, but a Sword and to divide families. Jesus taught nothing valuable.
Since there is not the slightest objective evidence of any god whatsoever then the idea of objective morality becomes somewhat moot.
Choosing your god is as much as a preference as choosing red or yellow flowers.
Really? What does Dawkins say? The simplest life contains megabytes of digitally encoded information. And, at least another megabyte of non-encoded information.
No random process generates digitally encoded base 64 information.
Nor can sudden "orphan genes" appear in other life forms with no homologies to any other genes anywhere.
Only a Superintelligence of some kind can, and "it" created two unique DNA replication schema which share no homologies.
Actually, no.
The God or lack of one ,for you, influences how you make a choice in every single decision you make in your entire life, (to paraphrase Albert Einstein.)
@@glenliesegang233 again, the absence of knowing how it all began does not presuppose a god.
It just means you and I don't know as of yet.
It is beyond our ken as was the making of or understanding the intricacies of a computer was to the original authors of the Koran.
Objective morality depends on the impacts we have on each other and the decisions we make as a result of that.
Authority rests on our respect for others and how we manage responsibility.
It appears to me that people are desperate for an ultimate manager and will argue for its existence despite the absence of any objective presence.
@@glenliesegang233
Your Einstein paraphrase makes no logical sense.
Belief is the influence that affects choice not lack of belief.
Or else your lack of belief in the tooth fairy, unicorn, Santa Claus, leprechauns and Easter bunny would be doing overtime on your life choices
I attend a Unitarian Universalist Church. I still have community. I think this is a good place to start to deconstruct, that's just my opinion. I grieved a long time over the realization that there isn't a God. I cried. I got depressed. Then I realized what a beautiful gift Life is and decided to enjoy it. I also work in healthcare and love helping people so that gives me a great sense of purpose. I strongly recommend volunteering. My local Athiest meetup group helps at the local food pantry. I suggest getting involved in local service projects.
As someone just a few years out of religion, I resonated with over half of these.
I especially resonated with putting morality first, as I held on as a Christian atheist for a while, and losing a sense that I had the "right" morality at the end of it hit harder than the loss of the god years earlier.
■■■ "PRAYING DOESN'T CHANGE GOD,
BUT IT CHANGES HIM WHO PRAYS."
--Soren Kierkegaard
This video was incredible. It really hits the nail on the head, at least for me, on most of the things I miss about faith in the Christian God.
A couple of years ago I lost my father (he was 85 years old, so not entirely unexpected). I was already an atheist at that time, but at the funeral I gave a "sermon" based on the "faith, hope, and love" passage in Corinthians as a eulogy. I've come to think of the death of my father as a parallel to the death of my Father. While I didn't kill my father, I did kill my Father -- in a way -- and still suffer a kind of guilt over this Patricide.
But in reflecting about my father's death, I still have "conversations" with him, in that when I'm facing struggles that he faced in life, I can (sort of) ask his advice by interacting with his legacy that remains in my memories of him, realizing that at this point those memories are at least in part a fiction, perhaps a fiction loosely (getting looser every year) based on history. While I cannot bring myself to _believe_ that my father still exists in some "spiritual" way, perhaps he's in some sort of "heaven" as well and my "prayers" to him are "heard" by him and I can actually "hear" his answers back to me, what I can do is temporarily _suspend my disbelief_ in a way similar to how I read a novel.
I sometimes wonder if this suspension of disbelief is perhaps a good substitution for religious faith. But your video here seems to point to much, much more that needs to be replaced. This is especially true of the loss of a religious community combined with family.
Anyway, thank you for getting my brain churning this morning!
Very interesting. God bless you sincerity❤
Brilliant reply. I think very Very much like you do
I wonder if the people who do not get religion also do not get the ability to suspend disbelief.
@@skylinefever interesting question. I've often regarded "faith" as, instead of belief without evidence, a flexibility of mind that is used in various ways, including the suspension of disbelief we use to engage with good fiction.
I've used Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry as an example. Take the parallel postulate (given a line L1 there is exactly one line L2 that is parallel to L1 passing through a single point that is not on L1) and suspend your disbelief about a specific negation of that postulate (instead of one parallel line, there are zero parallel lines, or there are an infinite number of parallel lines, through that point). Keep suspending your disbelief about this alternate postulate until you find a contradiction that proves the original postulate to be analytically true via _reductio ad absurdum_ and call it a day.
Then you do so and wind up creating an entirely new geometry that is actually more useful and elegant than Euclid's original for different kinds of questions where Euclidean geometry is cumbersome and clunky.
Does this require a religious mindset, or even encourage a religious mindset? I don't think so, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
@@brucee6524 the reason I look into it is because I wonder how many people will only be able to "get" certain religions by having the correct set of genetic proclivities and set of personality traits.
4. Truth is still good for survival, or (importantly) any other goal you might have. My impression is that Hoffman's examples are contrived to force the contratian results that he wants, but that *in general* evolving to perceive the truth is also the best way to see the things required to avoid extinction. We may find that our perception emphasizes, even over-emphasizes, certain things, but we can take that into account.
And, just as for objective morality, free will is (at least!) as difficult a question for theists as for atheists. Accounting for free will in the presence of an omnipotent God is at least as hard as accounting for it in the presence of physics. There are good compatibilist solutions in both cases; I would say that it's easier for an atheist in fact.
We are going to discuss "objective morality" and just pretend that Ethics do not exist? Are we going to pretend that having a Conscience isn't a thing that is naturally occuring and can be found and demonstrated in every single culture and civilization? And are we going to pretend that by the age of four years old, people aren't already beginning to adapt their thinking and behavior to understand that if they do commit some sort of act which hurts another person, they wouldn't want that to happen to themselves? Are we going to pretend that a four year old can't realize that if he or she steals something...and there are no witnesses, that the four year old didn't in fact witness himself stealing something? Are we going to ignore the fact that when people do things that are socially unacceptable and cause lasting harm that the person might in fact feel regret?
The reason why I have such disdain for philosophy, is philosophy has such a high regard of itself for the act of polishing words and making word salads.
All of that is subjective morality, not grounded in anything other than human experience. It's something we can still work with but it isn't quite as solid as universal moral principles. Take psychopaths or sociopaths for example who do not experience the conscience you mention, nor regret.
second video of yours i am hearing. i love how much food for thought yu put out.
The hardest things for me were 1. Community. There is no particularly unified get together s and broader community for atheists. 2. The belief that someone is in charge rather than just random chance of the universe crewing you over or stamping you out because you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The realization that nothing is guiding anything to me is in the song “here to forever” with the realization there is nothing guiding the world for the good of all.
Great video. These are ideas I've thrown around for many years now. I've actually started leaning towards viewing religion, or at least "belief" as useful fiction...
Can you think of a single "use" for religion that can't also be achieved WITHOUT religion?
If there were a unique benefit to religion, I might be more tolerant and think of it as a white lie, but with whatever good is in religion there also comes too much wickedness.
Humans can form charitable organizations that aren't ALSO guilty of atrocities throughout history. Humans can invent a morality that doesn't make excuses for slavery, child trafficking, genocide, selling daughters into marriage...and so much more. We can do good works without tolerating all the horrors endorsed by the Bible, the Quran, and the Torah.
Let's have Bingo Night WITHOUT stapling a guy to a cross, and just enjoy ourselves.
@@imusmoedegrasseTrue in some cases. Depends on how the religion responds to secular influences as well. Some religion are more open to reform than others.
I think the Plato Noble Lie may have been the greatest writing of such a concept.
I guess what I never could find was how a society built on lies is able to survive when people know they were lied to.
God was never alive for me and yet I still cope with life. It's not hard to do.
All of this resonates with my own experience.
I think I was fortunate to have gone through the process of deconstruction/reconstruction prior to the internet.
The online atheist movement can be aggressively evangelical. It's often so intent on removing a cancerous but functional narrative that it forgets how important it is to replace it with a better one.
The problem with objective morality is that it doesn't exist even with a god or gods. No God (certainly not the Abrahamic God) was ever bound by it, and God is ultimately just another subject anyway. The grounding of "objectivity" in God is just subjectivity once removed, enforced by "might makes right" morality.
Correct! If we are talking about the absolute nature of reality morality by definition is a process of pick and choose. A set of preferences. As such, morality is anything but objective or absolute. Whatever is deemed as absolute must be the holder of everything. There cannot be any form of subjectivity in the sphere of the absolute. Objectivity can only be associated with the absolute, and therefor impartial to any form of morality.
However, since ordinary beings do not apprehend the absolute nature of reality (although they are part of it) a set of appropriate but temporary values are useful in order to open up the heart of understanding. As such, moral guidelines may contribute towards a deeper understanding. If understanding of the temporary nature of morality arise in the mind of the practitioner later, that is one of the signs that the practice is bearing fruit and ultimate nature is being approached.
I always saw 700 Club Karens using God and Jesus as an excuse for their preferences.
They couldn't just say the wanted AD&D and heavy metal gone because it gets their panties in a twist. So they just said God and Jesus when banning it.
Then they blamed secularist instututional schooling when their kids grow up and don't kiss God's ass.
Although religion allows a forum for these; ritual, community, etc. I see no need to allow religion to claim ownership.
For number 2 I never saw committing a hideous act on someone and then claiming Jesus as your savior, all your sins forgiven as justice.
I have had a long and winding road to my recent full on atheism. You have giving me much to think about. Thanks. (I say somewhat sarcastically lol) Think I'll read your book.
For me, grieving would be too strong a word, but I did try to find reasons to remain a christian, but couldn’t.
Great little essay!!! Very succinct! Glad to have found your channel! I worked out most of these things as a teenager (I'm 68) thanks to science fiction and mentors like Bertrand Russel....I found the rainbow family of living light as the best solution for community.
Wow! Looking at your history and you came as hot out of the gate as Brandon at Mindshift!
I always assumed he'd slow down at some point, though its been a year and so far no.
Best of luck with your endeavor, I will take some time to watch what you've done so far.
I would like to know how Christians find their objective morality. There are two places they suggest, the first being the Bible which contains such a mix of moral and immoral commands from god I don't know anyone who follows all the moral dictates in it. The other is what is "written on our hearts" which differs wildly from person to person.
They just blindly let pastors and priests choose the passages to believe.
@@courtneybrown6204 Yes, and I never see Christlike behavior aimed at money changers.
The are losses are real but generally there is a net gain.
Here are some of the things you gain from losing God:
1. Higher self esteem. We are not a worthless and sinfull people by default.
2. Unconditional love and acceptance for a wider variety of people: gays and other sexually "immoral" people, etc
3. Elimination of the most unfair justice system ever: eternal punishment for a finite crime.
4. A better chance for equality across countries and races: no special chosen people, etc
5. The vast benefits that we constantly gain from the pursuit of truth are too numerous to mention. Longer life span, psychological insights, etc.
6. Putting a higher value on our life on earth since there's no heaven to look forward to
7. Processing of our fear of death on firmer grounds; We have nothing to fear since it's gonna be just like before we were born.
Removal of the fear of eternal suffering in hell for the vast majority of people
8. Creating space for more inclusive rituals/celebrations. Rituals are not tied to religion: graduations, weddings, etc. Eventually more secular rituals will come about. Btw, happy holidays.
9. Pursuing peace amongst ourselves with a more flexible mindset. Removing the following destructive models:
- God commands us to kill sinners
- Some people are evil and/or demon possessed
- Some people's lifstyle can cause God to punish a whole population.
10. A more flexible approach to defining our morality that can grow with our increasing insights, evolve to suit our changing situations and widen to include a wider variety of people
To know thy self is to know who the divine is 🙏
That's just gobbledygook you heard from a church tract. I know myself very well, and have seen zero evidence of anything divine.
By your logic, if I studied medicine more, I would learn more about the divine? Or if I studied psychiatry and analyzed myself, I would know more about the divine? That's just presupposing that the divine had anything to do with who I am or what I am. Justify your presupposition first.
I disagree 100% about morality and want to drop the video here. And so do most atheist philosophers. Recently, statistics show most of them believe in objective morality. It does not mean one needs a deity.
well done
Just brilliant!
This is the 69th comment, and I'm your 666th subscriber. 🙃
Here is upvote 420, dudes.
That was world changing for me too! Couldn’t believe god could allow that.
You didn't just compare gender and sexuality to being like a "cult" did you? Tell me i didn't hear that?
Thanks for your video. About your brother. My brother-in-law got out of prison and was going to church for 6 years and doing great on his job and then fell back into his old ways of gambling drug abuse and then had his car repo ‘d & lost a really good job) he is 64 years old. I would not dare challenge his faith when I was witnessing all of this positivity. But now I question my silence. I have an intuition that real progress in his life should have been anchored in realistic therapy and steered away from a world of church going that in my opinion was a bandaid and did not offer real healing. He lives 800 miles away and may be homeless for all we know and stealing again.
I like your point that we can eventually detach from believing in an invisible god but still recognize that Christianity has some nice features.
The void has to be addressed I would think it must be harder for once deeply practicing Christians that get educated and stop believing. But there is a real dark downside to getting indoctrinated too. With your imagination you make up all kinds of false patterns under your perceived belief in a heavenly being.
what about the belief in the devil? That can make you second guess yourself your whole life too. Was it god? was it the devil? was it just me? Was it nature? was it nurture? how can I be trusted to know?
My point is there must be a whole lot of confused people out there because someone lied to us instead of just being intellectually honest and say the simple words we don’t know but here’s the attitude you can have instead. Take your 70-90 years (if your lucky to live a long life) don’t have shame and go out and find out what life has in store for you.
PS people are full of it in all walks of life. They like watching violence, doing weird diets, fanning the pages of the bible and putting their finger down on a verse, stroking their ego etc.
If we started with an honest premise I am almost certain we would have a lot less perversion, self doubt, deviations, addictions, confusion, and self righteousness and so on.
PS I subscribed to your channel
Atheism is not just a religion with its dogma, but a religious cult, and as any religious cult it talks about religion, God and so on, and you are trapped into this religious cult but you will never admit you are in, right? In few words there is nothing good in atheism. What a cult!....
At 25:16 "It's the job of the individual to create a life that's worth living for them."
I have to disagree because the world (not humans) has to create a life (for humans) that's worth living. So what do we got? Well we got a universe that's given humans time and time is what humans (also with help such as A.I.) must fight for. At the end of the day you got an Immortalist world wherein you have the clear and simple choice of either continuing to exist or exit (and maybe there could even be some kind of supernatural life after death who knows). It's a type of world where everyone simply lives in it. They (plus again the A.I. thing, merging with it a possibility)can explore the universe, continue to advance civilization, search for the meaning of life etc without ever having to look at a clock.
Creating meaning for oneself is exactly what religion is all about but rather giving people meaning on a silver platter the meaning creation is shifted to the individual instead. I would not call that progress.
Death thus far defines life and rules over all.
Although I don't agree with the violent portions of the Bible, and I don't base my spiritual life and understanding on the Christian world view, I definitely still recognize my spirituality and divinity existing within the universe.
I feel that within my deepest being, and no one can dissuade me from that. I could never be an atheist, although i have turned away from the Judeo Christian interpretation of God in Bible.
Consumerist nihilism is not the only alternative after the death of god. Epicurean philosophy furnishes methods of self-care, community, monthly gatherings and some ritual, and a cosmological naturalist doctrine with no supernatural claims. There are many other alternatives that dignify life.
1. Objective morality - objective morality based on subjective interpretation of ancient scripture is subjective morality. You just learn to see that it really is subjective and always was.
While we do not have the fiction of ultimate justice, what it gives us is awareness of the gravity of injustice. When kids starve in Ethopia, that's it for them. That was their one chance. When Joseph _Angel of Death_ Mengele escapes Nazi-hunters and dies in his seventies, that's a mark on our history we are never able to live down. And these motivate us towards building a better world where such horrors never happen again (or at least happen less.)
In traditions with Karma and reincarnation, there's a notion that the suffering deserve their lot for past wrongs, and we need to take no effort to restore balance because the universe will provide this in the end. But no, the reality is people do suffer, often with no retribution against active agents, and no relief or rescue. And to the rest of us, restitution for that injustice can only be paid forward.
Unique. I used to be Mormon too.
Been an atheist for 58 years now, been faithfully and (mostly) happily married for forty, raised three wonderful children (all atheist), have grandchildren, friends and relatives, and a wonderful community, have had ideals outside myself.
The problems you are talking about here seem to be projections of your former religion.
She is a genius in this space!
It's interesting that the very problems that are brought to the forefront here, contain in them some of solutions needed within and that seems to be skipped? Beyond the hedge, embraced by loneliness, and able to create anything you wish (metaphorically) is where the life of an individual truly begins. That's not to say it doesn't absolutely suck for a while, but it changes to something else eventually.
You are amazing
1. But there's no objective basis for morality even for theists! "It's good to do what God says" is no more objective than "It's good to do what produces the greatest good for the greatest number" or any other moral system. Theists like to claim that it is, but that's just itself a subjective belief.
I guess you're saying that getting out of theism means realizing that that's the case, and that you never had an objective basis for morality in the first place. Which is fine, I can see that that might be traumatic.
(Never having been a theist myself, I don't directly have your experience, but I can imagine it must be painful, and appreciate your openness here.)
You can't remove morality from the subjective experience. The purpose of doing that is to force your subjective preferences on other people.
excellent
I never believed in gods so I never experienced any loss when they never tried to contact me.
The Mormon example of raising children is not the same experience of other Christians in the U.S, especially when you raise a family when you do not live away from where you grew up. Other Christian denominations have a network to where they can move and find church members who will help you move in. Many people move for jobs, a change of scenery, etc, and they don't have the support of family. Finding a church community and developing that relationship with that community where you feel close to them is a long-term process. The belonging to a community is only effective if you grow up in that community and your family is around. In the U.S. whether you are religious or not, chances are you're starting over again, and that is lonely whether you are religious or not.
What is justice anyway
Love your videos but please check the audio levels next time
I'm really sorry about that, I'm learning! At some point I'll go back and revisit this subject with better audio and video.
Well, I know there is zero evidence for any gods. I know that there is 100% evidence that man has created gods.
Telling it as it is.👍🏼
- There was community and meditative utility in religion. Being a theist that cannot justify the existence of a god anymore, is not the same as an atheist who has come to know that supernatural deities never existed. Parts of the religious delusion have not been totally extinguished. How can something be lost when it never existed?
We don’t teach astrology in astronomy class.
We don’t teach alchemy in chemistry class.
We don’t teach creationism in a biology class either.
Intelligent design uses the natural with assumptions and faith to draw conclusions. That sounds like religion not science.
What is your take on process philosophy? At its base, it challenges assumptions about God/Divine, but it is open to the possibilities of human/sentient contributions to "creation" which may mean that we are in a position to develop a truly human/sentient value system that goes beyond a kind of brute survival of the fittest whether we use the "G" word or just call it a higher level of evolution. It may mean to decide that certain values such as love, compassion for all beings, perhaps others are what we will champion--much as societies decided that self-governance was superior to being ruled by established elites--its successes to be determined. I also see value in meditation, call it a form of prayer if you wish. Perhaps, some of the Buddhists have a better handle on these things than we do in the West.
Buddha was a idiot. Meditate to connect.
In the beginning you mentioned studying the future of religion. I’m curious what your thoughts are on where religion is going. I’ve read studies that show Gen z (my generation) can be as high as 50% non religious.
Religion is going in the toilet. Where it belongs. You that ask where actual spirituality is going.
You are a wonderful guide and teacher!
I like how you view deliberately talking to oneself as a direct means of connecting sub conscious to conscious wisdom or knowledge to better focus on matters at hand.
fyi. Me, born raised Roman Catholic, Jesuit taught. Pursuit of objective truth led to recognizing my own need for myth to comfort me to the idea of my own death.
We are energy and matter. Non-life begot life. Life begot us/me.
Great scholarship and clarity to your wonderful insights!
thank you!
Teacher of what?
@@gothboschincarnate3931 How to bravely explore the unknown without the comfort of group acceptance of group myths.
@@stevenewstart7918 she's and atheist and not doing that. Exploring the before/afterlife is what I do.
I have been an atheist my entire life (63 years) so I never felt the mourning of the loss of faith/religion in a direct manner. The closest would be something like learning the magical Santa didn't exist and how that felt learning that truth. While I cannot claim to know an after life and or God does not exist, religions and their holy books to some degree promote skepticism from a critical perspective. Especially for heavy thinkers, you are left with the psychology of it all, where you can't just look at it from a purely intellectual perspective, but you have to consider the emotional component as well. From this perspective, the saying "ignorance is bliss" has more meaning and value. In a nutshell, the emotional component is far more important than the intellectual component. You sort of hit on this in your video where you have to question the value of the truth at the expense of emotional pain and potential loss of enthusiasm. Going from everything matters to nothing matters. The truth certainly has value, but it appears that it does not have value across the board. Like most things in life, it seems to be about balance. Religions took hundreds of years for humans to fully develop with the human condition in mind to the point that even non-believers can relate to a lot of the messaging and it can give rise to a Christian atheist who sees this value while not believing the magical bits tied in.
"Religions took hundreds of years for humans to fully develop with the human condition in mind to the point that even non-believers can relate to a lot of the messaging and it can give rise to a Christian atheist who sees this value while not believing the magical bits tied in."
Religion is nothing more then alleviating the fear of death by undermining the gravitas and significance of it. Examples of it include "God" has created (or allowed it) and is in control of death, death is nothing more then a second long soul sleep, even the bad guys are immortal in hell and so go on the Theistic explanations. Since everyone dies (A.I. plus medical science perhaps...one day soon may be able to change that condition) the business of religion is guaranteed to stay.
Imagine if the majority believed that cells caused cancer instead of sin. If the majority believes that Jesus is going to save them then who or what is going to save them from cancer? Would they even care? All the magic stuff happens after death. How very convenient.
There is no objective _creed_ and yes, there's nothing metaphysical that informs the material world. However, there is a strong ground for morality in that our disposition to cooperate with each other (which is greater by order of magnitudes than any other creature we've observed) features a fundamental contract we have with our crew (clan, tribe, family, whatever). Some of these are pretty simple, such as avoiding harm, and if someone has a critical need (food, water, warmth, etc) prioritize helping them out.
This is enforced not from divine power, but because there's a whole lot in the world (predators, elements, hunger, thirst, plague, rival tribes, time itself) that are glad to kill us dead, and so we really can use the force multiplier that is having more guys on our team. Since we have communities of thousands and nations of millions with giant infrastructure, we're not used to thinking about what happens when all your friends ditch you because you committed a serious faux pas. When these elements are near threats, it serves as more of a reminder to be polite.
Your hope dies and then reality dies next!
The death of god wouldn't be the death of objective morality. Any morality that is dictated by a god's whims is the exact opposite of "objective". Today, it's moral for god to command the Israelites to take 23,000 virgin little girls for themselves, but tomorrow it's not? What kind of mental gymnastics did you have to do to decide THAT is objective morality? Relying on a single individual to dictate your morality simply because he's more powerful than you is no different than letting the strongest army decide what is moral. It is 100% subjective.
I have to disagree with your stance on ultimate justice, as well. Biblically, there was never any justice. I'll use your example of the little boy: if the mom and boyfriend found Jesus, they would go to heaven. If the little boy was not a believer, he would go to hell. There is neither justice nor mercy in that scenario, but that's exactly what the bible says will happen. Your reward is 100% based on whether you believed in Jesus or not. Your crimes are immaterial and your suffering is immaterial.
Thank you. I like that you mention being careful not to push too hard against things like christianity where they are performing an actual function like keeping something worse at bay or literally being the thing that keeps somebody alive.
If people absolutely hate every moment of their existence, but don't end it because hellfire and brimstone, what is so great about it?
I think it would be better if people who can't enjoy life just get it over with. I argue that if the USA didn't have hellfire and brimstone sermons in so many people, we would have numbers like Japan or South Korea.
The "death" of objective morality implies the concept is alive with God. Even if true, all we would have is objective statements of feeling about a subjective interpretation of an objective morality. Which would appear similarly to not having an objective morality at all
Seek the truth. By finding it, by feeling it's hardships you should be better able to discern and appreciate how you got your turn to ride the roller coaster of life. You as a human get to differentiate the beauty from the ugly. If you don't appreciate it then you are not one of his people. That's fine you can just be part of the chaff. Through the fire comes the refinement
Fear of FREEDOM?
Who the hell doesn't wannabe FREE?
"I tell you that man has no more tormenting care than to find someone to whom he can hand over as quickly as possible that gift of freedom with which the miserable creature is born." Fyodor Dostoyevsky, _The Brothers Karamozov_
Psychologically our brains don't like freedom as much as we think we do!
When you speak of the community aspect, you seem to be forgetting that there was a time when Mormonism didn't exist. And you don't seem to remember that Mormon rituals are theirs alone. Had you been born into a different family, other than Mormon, none of these things would have taken place.
If you base your morality on god you base your moral judgments on someone else’s interpretations and preferences of what is a moral standard to follow. As such, you are no closer of following an ‘objective’ standard of morality since it is based on just another interpreter of what your god wants. In this case it all comes down to faith and who you’re going to trust. An objective standard of morality is a false idea since it cannot be based on the absolute nature of reality but a set of preferences in regards to conduct based on a selective and biased interpretation of reality.
It would be much better if humanity came to an agreement on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable without the involvement with outer agents such as a god of some sort. At the end of the day, we humans do not agree on what the ultimate nature of reality is and thus cannot base an universal morality and code of conduct on such foundations. Far from all humans acknowledge an existing supreme power under whom we are all subjects.
Isn't a cult a cult whether it is religious or political. Why choose either.