FWD vs RWD vs AWD - What's BEST in Snow?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2024
- FWD vs RWD vs AWD on snow is a question I get asked a lot about, and as the Tesla Model 3 Performance can (sort of) be all three, I took some time out of a Michelin test to see what the differences are. The Tesla is fitted with the excellent Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 which is one of the best ultra high performance all season tires in snow.
I drive three laps, one in front wheel drive mode, one in rear wheel drive mode and a final lap in 50/50 all wheel drive split to see what the differences are on snow, including see which is fastest and what the balance of the car is like.
Please note we were unable to do traction testing as the Tesla defaults back to AWD when the car is straight, even if it's set to 100% rear wheel drive mode only. This will come at a later date.
Ordinarily the Model 3 Performance fits 20” wheels, Michelin have modified their car to accept the base OE 18” wheels which we used for the testing.
Also, the OE 18” tire size is 235/45R18, whereas we were only able to get 245/40R18 tires in time for this test. We ran the tires at the OE pressure of 42 psi.
Any questions please ask below, and please consider subscribing.
/ tyre_reviews
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Certainly a nice test for fun but please don't take this FWD vs RWD result seriously. A prepped track with prestine packed snow with no hills is hardly real world scenario. Not to mention true FWD cars have more weight up front. Would love to spend some time on this track though, looks fun. I live in snow 6 months a year and love winter driving.
That was close enough to demonstrate the difference
Prepared track ideal for consistency, 50/50 weight distribution, no extra weight advantage. Proper test is time from dead stop to maybe a 1/4 mile in a straight line. Interesting to c the difference in distance between 1st and 2nd will end the street (not track) debate once and for all. Do it for your fans
Bonus test. Put 40lbs or so in the trunk, then the frunk Put on proper pure snow tires to stop the loss of full traction sooner. Better yet repeat on ice to really showcase the difference
@@gothicpagan.666 ehhh not really. One of the biggest reasons FWD is considered better than RWD in the snow is because of the weight of the engine. Tesla being an electric car has the weight distribution balanced over the whole car where most ICU cars have front mounted engines. That means for most cars more weight will be over the front wheels increasing performance of a FWD car and therefore also means less weight will be over the rear which decreases performance of a RWD car.
@@lamakicker69 If you buy something like a BMW or Mercedes you'll have 50/50 weight distribution, I'm Norwegian and I find both brands to be far superior to any FWD car in the snow and ice and I've driven quite a few!
For what I've understood driving it on ice and snow, in track mode with -10 it actually turns the esp off BUT it will never turn the traction control off completely. As a matter of fact if you send it (a scandinavian flick i.e.) you can spin out easly, but the wheel spin during acceleration is always controlled. It allows a certain amount of wheel spin but it won't give you all the power. It does make sense cause being 1-speed car when you floor it the wheels could reach up to 260 kph and could be very tricky to recover... just because of the rotating mass.
Intersting comment, leaving mine here to follow the thread
fully agree, going 50km/h with wheels going 260km/h would be a recipe for disaster. I know we have both tested this, although wheels only like 140km/h in 3rd or so ;)
In AWD I'd tend to agree, but I've certainly had points in RWD cars where I've been going 50 kph and the rears have been going 150kph and it's no big deal. I get why Tesla do it, but they make you jump through hoops for track mode so why not let the driver drive too? (with enough warnings)
It is a good point though, without a gearbox and 100% torque those rears would spin up reallllll fast!
@@tyrereviews there use to be a working "dyno mode" for all model 3's. As soon as someone explained the procedure to turn it on they also started counting destroyed 3's around the globe 🤣. Now the Dyno Mode uses the gps antenna to check if you really are on a dyno and eventually cuts the power down to minimum enough to pull over and turn it off!
@@alfo40 haha, that's amazing
One thing that is easy to forget with an EV - the two motors are completely decoupled. That is why Tesla kicks in AWD in a straight line, otherwise the car will be substantially slower if you choose anything other than 50:50 power distribution. It might arguably be slower in corners too, where there is not enough power for the FWD or RWD balance to overcome grip and acceleration is not traction limited like here
Makes sense
Well said, and I'm glad someone said it. It's two separate motors driving two separate axels, so if you did true 100% to one axel or the other, you'd be forfeiting an entire motor.
This makes the test even more interesting. For anyone who's wondering if they should buy the dual motor Tesla vs. the single motor Tesla - this test shows that for the extra money, it's only that little bit quicker.
@@dpnmodi Not really - even in single motor mode it is using both motors in a straight line. Plus, very few people buy a car to race round an ice track. In reality that AWD will make very little difference to you on dry and wet roads, but i can attest that to just drive up the snow and ice covered road currently outside my house the AWD makes a world of difference.
True and not true, most cars with high horsepower today have 4wd for a reason, Porsche have done it for years and a 911 4wd launch alot better than the rwd versions, was not many years ago Mercedes AMGs where rwd or even BMW M5 but after 500ish hp you need the 4wd to put down all the power.
Car weighs more, you can lose a bit of feel in the steering but the grip when it's wet or winter is better (awd dose jack shit when it's dry).
Front wheel drive was a cost savings for traditional ice cars because there is no drive shaft and other components are not used and it give you more room in the cabin was the reasoning why they make/made front wheel drive.
So excited to see ps4 all season vs. cross climate 2 vs. ice x being tested! Not only that, on a model 3!!! This is EXACTLY the information I've been wanting to see. I have PSAS4s and they are great, but also have Winter tires. I want to determine if for my climate if Crossclimate 2s are enough vs. Ice X.
Really looking forward to this, would like to see the All seasons tested in 20+c weather, they are always tested in the snow and ice lets see the others seasons please :)
This will be the most highly anticipated review.
I am super excited too!!
Just put some Michelin Cross Climate 2's on my Tesla model 3 LR. Bring on the winter!
@@trevorshields7347 It might not start under zero Celsius, unless you will put some heater on the battery.
Though this is a really interesting and fun test it's important to stress that you can't mimic the performance of a FWD or RWD car just by switching the drive settings. The weight distribution and suspension setup of RWD and FWD cars are quite different. Not to mention the AWD system kicking back in without permission! If you wanted you could use a RWD Model 3 that doesn't have a front motor at all I suppose. Also, whilst setting the fun aspects aside, the most informative comparison for the rest of us would be with the normal driver aids on. In fact any non Performance Tesla models will not allow you any of those Track Mode settings anyway. I drive a RWD Model 3 on winter tyres (on ordinary country roads) in snow and it is absurdly competent! (I have not hammered around on a protected private track ... I mean at moderate speeds!)
Completly right comment on this stuff!
Now do this test with propper RWD and FWD cars. FWD with ICE engine have a lot more weight over the front axle. This changes everything.
Cool that you can manually tweak the drive mode. Like to see this test performed on a skidpad. And with different tires. So AWD is faster & safer. Glad to see you'll do more with the Crossclimate 2.
AWD is faster and safer on the throttel, as soon as you need to brake however, it has no advantage. So if you worry about doing uphill starts, awd is your friend. If you want to give a car to a beginner or someone who never drove on snow, it could have a little potential to make is less safe with a good awd car. -> With all torque on one axle, the wheels will slip earlier and tell the driver that it is indeed slippery. With a good awd system and good winter tires it takes quite a binary approach to the throttle pedal to make it slip. So there is the chance of not "noticing" how little grip there actually is and being too fast for stopping when needed. It might sound dumb, but it happens.
@@nirfz 100%.
@@nirfz Wow, that is truly a great explanation of what I feel happens to many AWD drivers. I really think people assume they are planted in the snow driving when they are able to accelerate well enough without a ton of slippage. They fail to understand once they get up to speed they have zero benefit in stopping or turning. This acceleration can lead to faster speeds then their tires are ready to handle. I do see plenty of trucks and suvs spun out in ditches and if I happen to be passing them slow enough to see they usually have a very all season smooth looking tires.
The problem is that for most drivers the 4WD only gets you stuck in a place noone will be able to help you at, or kill you horribly.
For everyday ride on so beautifully snowy roads I'd prefer a slight front axle priority, probably around 55:45, and definitely good specialised winter tyres. Not as much fuun, but MUCH better braking distance.
I want to throw out there that Jonathan should be commended for trying to quantify and test something that has long been left to the realm of speculation and anecdotal evidence.
His commitment to further testing to shed light on the matter because the testing wasn't as clear-cut as he hoped and his transparency about the testing issues are further proof of his commitment to quality data. Thank you Jonathan!
I don't want my car to be fun in the snow, I want it to be safe and go where I want it to go as much as possible. Car enthusiasts love RWD because it is supposedly more fun, but whoever drives like that except on a track day? AWD is obviously best, but for driving in snow, I much prefer having the front wheels driven rather than the rear.
Been disappointed with the mild winter in the uk, I love driving in snow when I’ve got the right tyres. Last year was fun.
Did find some snow in the Scottish Borders, cross climate 2 did well.
There is still hope, can be snowy in February or first part of March... Happened before.
I've been disappointed with the weather here, so much snow I can't even get out of my driveway to drive on the snow!! :(
@Mark Andella yeah last February was when most of the snow came, last year was one of the coldest winters though I think this has been one of the warmest, 16c on New Year’s Day!!
Move to Sweden. Here we have snow all winter long. Thats why i drive a Subaru 😁
My winter driving is almost all city driving,so no hotdogging around curves. Getting out of my back lane is the thing I find most important. All I know is FWD is best for me if one wants to avoid getting stuck in snow. I am on my 2nd FWD (first one bought in 1995),and have not gotten stuck once in winter. At worst,I have had to rock the car back and forth to get moving.I run on all season tires year round. My RWD Cutlass would get stuck several times each winter,in spite of having studded snows and extra weight in the trunk.
So my biggest issue with this test is that when you are driving on the roads you aren’t racing in the snow. Drivetrain only changes cornering characteristics when you are using throttle. Unless there is a corner on a hill the normal driver won’t be cornering with throttle. Winter tires are always working in your favor but drivetrain can only help you when you are accelerating.
Thanks for all of your great videos though! Just wish more people realized the importance of winters in a cold/snowy climate such as where I live.
I have a Miata NA and a Veloster N. The all seasons on the Veloster can’t even touch the Miata with winters in the snow. Turning, accelerating, braking are all better with the Miata. And it doesn’t even have ABS, while the Veloster does.
Fair comments :) Road driving would make for a boring video though, and people want to know the fastest way round :) I need to do this properly with RWD vs FWD
This was a really cool test but it's important to note that the model 3 comes in RWD and AWD flavours so it was never designed to be strictly FWD which puts it at a disadvantage
Not arguing there, plus it's really part time FWD. I'll be redoing this properly with two cars.
@@tyrereviews and if there is going to be a sequel episode would love to see the difference of driver manually applying advanced driving techniques managing traction vs automation, assuming that is allowed
There’s a significant difference between being able to slide sideways around a flat track with no obstacles and driving safely between two lines with lots of people, cars, and curbs as well as varying surfaces and inclines. This video does nothing to demonstrate which is the best for the latter.
Your 1 lap in FWD followed by 1 lap in RWD 2.1 seconds quicker is not conclusive proof that RWD is better. It could be that your FWD practice lap gave you the feel for the car and course that helped you get a better lap time in RWD. You have all the makings of a successful car journalist. Entertaining. Keep it up.
I put a set of Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4s on my 2005 Pontiac Grand Am GT1 SC/T and they work great all around. Night and day better than the previous tires I used. Cooper CS4 and some original Goodyear tires that came default with the car.
Really the perfect scenario to test drivetrain performance in the snow… same car same conditions same driver
Loved it when you have turned the X-Ice mistake into an add to subscribe.
Gotta do that youtube life
Model 3 AWD with crossclimate 2 is just nuts. No slip what so ever during my ski trip last week, even in 10cm of fresh snow.
Try it with x-ice snow, even bigger wow factor!
Agreed, but I found the CC2 slips sideways on ice much more that Blizzak.
Hi mate, great video. You're exactly right there, in track mode the adjustable power bias only comes into play when turning, I'm on my second model 3 performance now and I discovered this when they first introduced track mode. I remember when track mode was released, I downloaded it and went straight out to go and do a massive burn out but instead the car just gripped and buggered off. Its weird, it's like a hybrid of a rear wheel drive car and an all wheel drive car. I'm pretty sure it's set up like that for pace but also with 500hp and instant torque I'm certain the safety aspect was of most concern, the thing would instantly break traction rolling at much higher speeds, would probably be a death trap for the market it serves.
Always love the videos. This one is particularly relevant to me as I have a Model 3 Performance and recently got to drive in a week’s worth of snow. Fun times!
I hope you had fun :)
Looking forward to the upcoming test, especially in non-track mode (so it compares better with the Long Range) and see more of Tesla tests in general. Awesome stuff!
What would be very interesting is to see a comparison between the normal cheap Model 3 with only RWD and the AWD long-range one. I've got my RWD one and the traction control for normal driving in the snow is the best I've ever driven (I've got the Pirelli Sottozero 3 T0 on it). Always surprised how good it behaves in snow either with full-traction-control or with it limited through Slip-Start. In my opinion nobody needs the AWD version in nearly all cases, even in the mountains.
Depends on where you live. I can think of a few times awd was the only way through
@@SAGITTARlUSagree. If There are a lot of hills, awd is better. I have a lot of hills in my neighborhood. All my cars have CC tires and in the snow, my fwd vehicle would struggle to go up the inclines while the awd cars would do it easily.
Michelin Pilot Sport 5 test. We pray for it.
Regarding the consumption, if drift my Mustang my range would be roughly 43 miles at the fantastic consumption of 3.1 mpg.
The teased upcoming test of PS4 all seasons vs CC2 vs X-Ice might break the internet.
:D
I ordered this car and it should be coming in a month or so. I can't wait to drive it in the snow. I bought Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4s (20"), I think they should be really fun. Absolutely can't wait.
RWD: Fun and satisfying
AWD: Overpowered and forgiving
FWD: Boring and garbage
Great drone shots , the model 3 looks amazing .
Tesla doesn't allow driver aids to be turned off completely , can be seen on track days with the model 3 .
White on white is hard to film but looks great!
It is a very outdated design, but if you like it, go ahead...
@@jarnovilen5259 thanks for your opinion 👍
the design is half a decade old yet holds up extremely well
Hey Jonathan, hope all is well for you. I'm really hoping to see an Michelin PS5 vs PS4 comparison from you, asap. Super curious about the tyre and your thoughts regarding it.
Superb demostration that RWD is always better than FWD. I don't know why some EV get FWD instead of RWD.
Keep it up Jonathan !!
:D
RWDs are inferior in most applications IF the car is very front heavy.
Simply coz of low weight and therefore grip on the driven axle.
I've ran Michelin CrossClimate as spring/summer/autumn-tires in Norway for the last couple of years. I see no reason for going back to regular summer tires in my use case with rather cold and varying temperatures on average. Very little wear on them too.
I can compare, amongst others, but for sporty examples of each breed: FWD MQB 400+hp, RWD GT86 240hp and AWD GR Yaris, all with LSD on all driven axles, on snow (Sweden). For getting somewhere safely I'd say 1) FWD 2) RWD and 3)AWD. Speed: 1) AWD 2) FWD* 3) RWD (911 excepted). Fun: 1) AWD 2) RWD 3) FWD. It's great being able to compare with fine examples of each...
* Reason for FWD being faster then RWD is because actual FWD cars have almost 2/3 of weight on the front axle, like for like giving them more traction then RWD once rolling.
Very interesting! I need to redo this properly with Audi and BMW :)
When Swedish Auto Motor & Sport tested a large group of cars on equal (Nokian) tires on an ice track with a pro driver, RWD cars absolutely beat the FWD cars easily. Some RWD cars even beat AWD cars, of the 'normal' car group the winner was BMW's 335i xDrive but also BMW 135i and Honda Civic Type R beat Audi's RS4 and all other AWD cars!
@@pistonburner6448 That's very interesting, do you have a link? I'm not sure how RWD would ever beat AWD, everything else being equal!
May i ask for the reason for your ranking of "to get somewhere safely"?
Am asking because i'm curious if it's a typo that the RWD is in front of the awd, or if it's for the reason i would put it before the awd.
(When people don't notice how little grip there is while applying throttle, they are more likely to be too fast for the conditions.)
@@tyrereviews In many kinds of conditions the ability to have absolute precision to have your tires hit the very spots with more grip (previous tire tracks, avoid small snow/slush mounds, avoid polished ice patches etc.), feel the absolute grip etc. is super important. I too was surprised that on an ice track those were the results. With a standing start the situation would probably be different, AWD would gain an advantage impossible to gain back in one or even two laps or more.
On the road it's far more understandable: having spent my youth with first an E30 and then other BMWs for myself and due to a sponsorship at one point I had Audi, then I had Porsches and BMWs, and my family had many of those and also Mercedes I had lots of cars to experience in winter conditions with. Then lots of friends with a variety of cars from road-legalised rally cars to junkers to the usual Saabs and Volvos.
On the road especially when comparing to my and my friends' Audi and Volvo AWD cars the precision of the BMW (and nowadays many others, Alfa, Maserati, Jaguar, even Mercedes is ok in this regard though all have lost steering feel) was key: On the road in the winter we always get the grooves where everyone's tires go, then right next to it just a centimetre away you have completely different conditions. So whether or not you keep your tires _exactly_ where you need them with millimetre precision is the difference between massive grip and almost no grip.
Actually I got a far faster start from standstill at the lights usually by using the edge of the tire grooves where it isn't polished ice, but it isn't too much snow either (which would then shift loose under the tires): it was a massive difference to have your tires on exactly those few centimetres of road (the tire was wider, but as long as you had the centre of the tire there it found the grip).
With Audi and Volvo you couldn't keep your tires on exactly the right spot. Period. You either had to slow down to make sure that your front doesn't wash off the groove in which case you're leaving a lot of potential speed off the table (rears had more grip to give but couldn't be used, and fronts had a little bit more grip too but you had to prioritise not losing grip since that would make you completely lose grip, maybe even go off the road completely!). And you certainly couldn't use oversteer since they were impossible to coax into precisely guided very slight oversteer, you had to man-handle them and throw them around to even get them to do anything else than understeer, and that meant total loss of precision. Dangerous too on public roads.
With the RWD car, with awesome steering feel all you had to do was brake into the corners well (could be a bit conservative in order to not completely mess up the corner), then roll it in optimising front grip and then with the gas optimising rear grip too. It was easy to hold EXACTLY on the very centimetres you could see there was grip on (and next to it was polished ice), it was easy to feel the front grip exactly, it was easy to feel the rear grip exactly.
Then for corner exit of course traction is limited but you could find the most possible grip the road had to offer and could slot into a higher gear to optimise traction out, but were you really win is corner speeds, which ultimately gives you quite an advantage for any drive type to try to claw back on the corner exit. In most winter conditions on well cared for wintry roads with good tires you don't have to be up to massive speeds to already have as good grip as you need to go full throttle or at least near that in a straight line. At least with approx 150-250hp cars. Even better if naturally aspirated as precision on the throttle too will win you tenths easily. Maybe that's why BMW's early turbo cars performed so well even against others' turbo cars since BMW had relatively good response and above all always predictable. NA is best in the winter though.
It's another winter driving skill: shifting up as early as possible to hit that sweet spot of as low revs as possible so you're just barely not breaking traction too much, just a bit of slip at most. Small thing, but that gains you time.
On polished ice RWD will of course be slower than AWD, at least in most track/road configurations. With loose stuff everywhere like after heavy snowfall the AWD just walks away, no chance for RWD. But very soon when grooves start to form in the snow the advantage of RWD precision is back again. Lots of variables of course: BMW's xDrive just like modern Alfas, Jags, Maseratis, with the same system and excellent balanced chassis have nearly all the RWD advantages and the AWD advantages. They're so precise that they can also exploit most of the grip on offer, and they give better traction, and are only somewhat negatively affected by how careful you have to be with he AWD system kicking the front or rear off course as even that excellent ZF AWD system has a bit of guesswork in its function compared to pure RWD.
Bro you tore that course up
Back in the late 80’s , County Durham, England. One weekend it snowed. Revellers in Bishop Auckland were stranded as all the Taxis were RWD Ford Sierras. Carousers in Stanley were fine as the taxis there were FWD Vauxhall Cavaliers. The amount of RWD BMW’s you see abandoned as soon as it snows in the UK is unreal.
Great video as always, big fan. However...
When looking at your summer tyre videos a track is a great place as I'm an experienced and confident driver and push the car hard. Whereas with winter tyre videos as a UK resident 'Snow' is not a full throttle, loads of space to have fun and push on a track. The information I and I assume others are looking for are about gentle driving conditions and where each drive mode will help, this would include (boringly) getting off the driveway, pulling away up hill and braking downhill, turning corners without plowing straight on! Or crashing!
I don't want to be negative as I love the channel but track for summer works, for winter it's a more realistic test and answer video people are really looking for (and searching for).
Hope for more great videos in future, currently RWD in a M240i, maybe heading back to my old WRX STI after this recent snow.
I bought some Michelin tires based on your reviews before, so no worries.
:D
Great video, been waiting for a new one for long time. I understand why you chose this Tesla for the test, but the results are not very representative. FWD cars have most of the weight over the front axle, which this Tesla hasn't got, so dynamically it does not really tell how FWD car would behave in real world in these conditions.
I'm planning on doing it properly :)
Exactly. Three different cars with similar power and weight would be perfect. For ex: golf gti, gr 86, gr yaris
Not sure why people are surprised by these results. The power outputs alone illustrate why they came out like they did...
FWD: 197 hp (147 kW)
RWD: 283 hp (211 kW)
AWD: 480 hp (358 kW)
Those figures are pretty much irrelevant. In those conditions there is no way you can even get anything like 197bhp onto the road let alone more.
@@barrykerslake7762 LOL! Done much vehicle development, or even witnessed a rally car? 🤣
Interesting never consider there is power different between the front and rear motor. This must have been overlooked when this video was planned
@@robertshunter Barry's right. And rally cars also need perfect traction get all the hundreds of hp to the ground. Disagree?
Good data, I didn't know this, however at no point when cornering did I not have the ability to overcome the available grip (even in FWD mode) and as soon as you're straight, it's full power anyway! I will redo this with Audi / BMW or similar.
Thank you so much for all the hard work you put in to make this different drive train video in cold weather. Great to know that there is just nothing better than AWD when driving in this kind of road condition. VERY, VERY MUCH looking forward to the X-Ice Snow vs CrossClimate 2 video.
On a very different topic: I wonder if any tire manufacture would sponsor you to make an ultimate video on snow vs All-Season vs All-Weather tires vs summer vs All Terrain vs... whatever tires in snow, dry, wet, hot, cold conditions with normal, plus/minus 2, 4, 6, 8, and maximum psi tire pressure while measure the lap speeds, fuel consumptions, stability, breaking distance, noise, comfort level and whatever the expert information available from the manufacture.... so the drivers can understand the importance as well as the differences when driving in different tire pressure level. I have looked and searched for this topic on the internet over and over and only got general "you should follow the sticker by the doo, it will cause premature ware...r" information but none actually provides real life testing data and tolerance range especially on these new tire compound technology. You would be the first if it is doable. Thanks in advance.🖖
That would be the dream to do that test, but it would be so time consuming and expensive, especially trying to maintain conditions across so many tests and days!
@@tyrereviews Imagine the amount of views such video will produce since it would be the one of its kind of video ever been done and.... how many more people would subscript to the channel due to the value added information for someone/sponsor(s) who/whom is/are willing to spend the time and energy to do so! (How many more tires would people buy from the sponsored manufacture(s) who is/are welling to invest in "EDUCATING" their consumers?)🤔
@@tyrereviews start with combinations of tire compound choice and tire pressure under very similar road/weather conditions (i.e. same day but many many wheel/tire change), like you showed us other parameters could be obtained from the data log
In the end with all the electronic stability controls what counts the most are the tires.
We want a video with the new Michelin Pilot Sport 5!
Me too!
Yeeeees!
FWD is only quick when you have a setup that allows the car to turn in off power on entry and catch the instability with power a FWD race car does not understeer. FWD road cars just plough on everywhere unfortunately.
For over 30 years, they held a road race. Ona frozen lake in North Manitoba every year. A front wheel or all wheel drive car never won it once. The car that wom it 22 times was a 1981 Chevrolet Montecarlo.
Many people are experiencing winter weather and do not have the experience to drive in such weather. I think videos on how to and tire analogy would do well. Of course getting uphill, out of snowed in spots and dealing with traffic are the issues. However your driving skills, explanations would be very helpful.
And you if want the best ice and snow laptime stick with regen at 100%! It's so amazing as it will completely eliminate the understeer even on tighter turn and it won't be anyone with same tyres able to match her laptime!
There was too much rear braking with these tyres to get round quickly! Maybe with the aids on it would have helped more!
@@tyrereviews I did run with snow tyres (continental 860) on pure ice and destroyed few subaru’s, focus rs etc… super effective!
I would definitely like to see a test like this one in more realistic conditions. Can’t remember my commute to work having three lanes for my disposal to drift around corners.
Most of the time there are only two lanes, one of which is not yours.
Will do it again with IC at some point
@@Gandalf721 I beg to differ. Cornering stability, driving up a steep snow-covered incline, get going again after you had to stop in the middle of the incline and the behaviour of your car when you’re faced with inconsistent road conditions - all while staying safely within your lane - that’s what actually matters for most people.
You can do that with any vehicle, you’re right about that, the question is: How easy or difficult will it be? That’s the difference we will experience in every day driving.
Most people don’t spend their weekends on some prepped snow circuits pulling of drifts while chasing lap times.
Ive driven both fwd and rwd in harsh Alberta winters and my daily is the rear wheel drive crown victoria lx trim (not a police or taxi fleet vehicle). That car has excellent 50/50 weight distribution as is and handles so good in winter with my winter tires of course. Ive never added weight to the trunk and never been stuck. For the average driver, they dont care about "fun", just getting from point A to B, nor do they possess the finesse and knowledge to handle rear wheel drive in slippery conditions and, they don't know about the technical aspects of each drive train. As someone who understands all points mentioned above, rear wheel drive will always be my go to, for the everyday driver that doesnt know these points, I can understand why they would think front wheel drive is better. Im not trying to insult anyone who prefers fwd, or you standard everyday drivers that don't "study vehicles". Im simply stating, you have no idea what youre missing out on when you're sticking with that fwd car you got.
-10 stability control plus 100% rear bias actually puts the car into "drift mode" where you have the least amount of stability and traction control in the corner. Anything less than 100% rear bias then the stability and traction will come back in and that's what you've experienced in the AWD test.
That explains it! But even in drift mode, it doesn't give you full rear axle control
@@tyrereviews yes, the bias is only when the wheel is turned. Whenever the steering is straight, it will send power to both front and rear. As far as I know, there is no official way to enable just the front or rear motor.
I'm super excited to see your PSAS4 VS crossclimate 2 VS x ice snow video.
I think I'm about to buy PSAS4's and X ice snows for my car and cross climates for my mom's identical car. I've run continental DWS/DWS06 on my car for almost a decade, and I love my blizzak WS90's but they just don't have enough tread life. She needs more snow grip than her conti touring tires will provide.
Thanks, as always!
Sounds like a nice little setup! :)
All season tires are so good now. With something 3 mountain peak and AWD or FWD, I’m questioning whether you need a pure winter tire. Outside of an Alpine climate.
I’ll be honest, having had some Michelin AS vs Winter tires, huge difference in snow and ice
If you don't get much snow and ice, all seasons are better in fall/winter then winter tyres.
All weather tyres are great for milder winter climates
I guess it depends on what you define as "best for winter". If you meant best for winter on public roads, I don't care that you aren't having fun while driving. I want you to be safe and not crash into me while having fun drifting around a corner.
This proves that FWD is the best. Here are the reasons: It drives straighter, it is more safe and slower, it usually stops faster than AWD and 4WD (not in electric vehicle probably). If a car drives sideways in a turn on a busy real life street in winter snow and ice, it's not fun, it's dangerous. The best would be FWD with higher ground clearance to get over deep snow - something like Kia Soul or small SUV with FWD. Cars with FWD are good too, if snow is not deep (deep is 5-6 in or more). Most dangerous would be RWD trucks - because they are heavy and will turn sideways crushing into oncoming traffic or parked cars. RWD - are very bad in winter - no ground clearance and turning sideways at the sight of snow - that car can be driven backwards better than forwards. AWD SUV have less chance to get stuck in snow, but usually crash in the backs of other cars, because of really long stopping distances and sometimes behave like RWD - turning sideways. 4WD usually drive in RWD, using 4WD to get out of deep snow.
White car in a purely white track and a drone following. This looks great :)
Hard to film but it does look good
Nice! Now I’m waiting for the same video with X-ICEs. :)
Well, the reason the RWD got a better time than FWD, is that in Tesla Model 3 Performance the rear motor is 283hp while the front motor is 197hp
I'd change the title to "Tesla Model 3 FWD vs RWD vs AWD - Which is BEST in Snow?"
I would like to see 3 very much alike cars with different wheel drives and then do the Crossclimate 2, Pilot Sport AS and Winter. I think the proper FWD front-heavy vehicle will have great results.
Nope, fwd is the worst drivetrain performance wise
@@E9X330 fwd with the engine in the front is a lot better than a rwd with the engine in the front. Does not even need to be tested
@@djolecar88 no it isn't, as soon as you accelerate, weight shifts to the rear, there's a reason 99% of successful pre-AWD cars were rwd
@@E9X330 For a split second, then it has front weight bias. The reason most older cars were rwd is because it was easier and cheaper to make...
@@djolecar88 wrong, majority of the weight stays on the rear until you stop accelerating, there's a reason most modern electric base cars including sub compacts, are switching to rwd ;)
Michelin PSAS4 aren't available in the UK! This tyre would be perfect choice for the spirited driver who cares about performance in all conditions, is it possible to ask Michelin through your contacts and see what can be done! Love this video BTW (as always).
I second that!!
want it in the Netherlands as well !
I've been asking for them! As they were never intended for Europe, they haven't been through the required European regulations. They'd certainly pass but it's not as simple as Michelin just deciding to sell them here, it's a big process.
If we keep asking maybe we'll get the next version in Europe, who knows.
I disagree completely. It is not perfect for the spirited driver who cares about performance in all conditions. Proper, far better performance tires are better than PSAS4 in at least three seasons of the four.
@@pistonburner6448 only for winter season. Rest of the year performance summer tyre .
There was a bit of bias as the weight distribution of an electric car is near 50/50, vs a front or rear engine car.
MY thoughts too. A ICE FWD car has the weight of the engine and transmission to help with traction. A ICE RWD car has no extra engine weight at the rear to aid traction. The weight distribution of the Tesla is near 50/50 with a motor in both wheels. I have a Bolt with FWD (motor in Front only) and with winter tires it does great in show and ice. I still believe winter tires matter more than drive wheels.
@@sevenflashowls There's a lot of ICE RWD cars with 50/50 too. Almost all BMW:s for example.
@@sevenflashowls Have you never heard of rear-engine and mid-engine cars? The 911 has over 60% of its weight on the rear axle, which is more than many FWD cars.
@@ARCNA442 if you read the main point of my comment, it was that Tires matter more than drive wheels. Of course I have heard of a 911 and many y other cars that have different drive configurations I also know about how the different AWD and 4wd systems work from Bosch, Aptiv, etc. but once again, my comment was that Tires matter more than drive wheels
I started watching this video and couldn't get through the first minute because the guy said something misinformed right out the gate (and there's been hundreds of examples of other TH-cam videos showing this misconception)... That slider does not adjust to turn off front wheel or rear wheel, it only affects how much oversteer or understeer you would like to have in your driving rotation. It would be so lovely to be able to lock out one axle or the other...
When it snows my husband and I drive the Challenger to have fun, and the TL with winters for literally everything else.
What is tl?
id like to see a highway loop of each see if they use less energy switching to just fwd vs awd vs rwd
Great video with the 3’s drive modes but honestly, I’m super excited for the results from your up coming video with the 2 All Season tires I’m on the fence with (CC2 vs PSAS4). I have an AWD GLA 45 in Toronto so it’s a tough decision. Love your work man!
Another exciting morning thanks to your video!
Thank you :)
Been running CC2’s on my long range model 3 for 15000 kms through Canadian winter with average 198 wh/km. Efficiency is improving tho as days are getting warmer. Surprisingly as per third party Tezlab app I regularly had better winter efficiency than other model 3’s around my area probably running dedicated winters or all seasons.
Good winter tyres and driver skills are the best options for winter.
Awesome. That made a great video and looked so much fun 👍👌
I knew AWD would be quicker but I was surprised that FWD was slower than RWD.
RWD still splits the traction duties of the tires across both axles. That's still true in any traction condition. So it's not entirely surprising. FWD, however, is supposed to be safer.
@@Antenox Definitely safer, I have a FWD & a RWD car & I would 100% choose the FWD in the snow.
@@Thireen FWD being safer is an unintelligent myth. It's based on the time when cars were overall terrible and had no traction or stability controls. Basing something being safer because of some supposed 'advantage' from being worse dynamically is not a good idea, encouraging people to not know the slightest thing about handling or road conditions (which would be aided by RWD cars' better feel) and relying that a predominantly understeering car will be a band-aid for it...
Then in reality people still got oversteer in their FWD cars and were even less prepared for it....
It was spread by non-car-people who had FWD cars and usually just because they were jealous of people owning sportier, more expensive cars like BMWs, ignoring the difference in feel, balance, etc.
Also FWD motor is less powerfull than the RWD one. I don't know if it would make a difference in these snowy conditions at full throttle
@@pistonburner6448 I disagree, I've driven all kinds of cars on snow and ice, and FWD is safer than RWD imo, especially to normal drivers who are entirely overwhelmed when having to catch a loose rear end. It takes much, much more practice to do safely. Yes, there is still lift off oversteer on FWD cars, but in most situations people don't even get there when it's slippery. Plus the traction on snow is usually better on FWD cars when starting from a stop as there's more weight on the front wheels. To those of us who practice driving and test the limits when safely possible, it's a different story, but not enough people do that, they just want to get from A to B.
I'm literally getting ready to buy some cross climate 2's, think I'll hold fire till the next video! Brilliant video!
That'll be October I'm afraid!
love the south carolina plate with tons of snow all around
I just wonder how the times would be if you set the traction for 60:40 and then 40:60! Please, try it next time!
I love that you're able to make the same car do FWD, RWD, and AWD. I'd imagine other EV's going forward will probably have similar functions as well.
It’s only available on performance models with track mode, not even on other regular Teslas. So I wish too but I doubt it’ll become more common.
The new chevy can be ordered with fwd/rwd/awd as in actual motors and not just software tuning
Nice idea for the test but not sure it’s applicable to the dynamics of most ICE cars…
Most ICE cars have the engine in the front, which is typically where the biggest concentration of weight is - I know that’s a generalisation, but so are tests like this; you can’t be properly scientific.
The flaw here is that the weight and handling characteristics of a Tesla (and most EVs) are pretty different to non-EVs due to the weight and location of the batteries.
As an example, RWD are often rubbish in the snow because:
a - they typically have wider rear tyres than average (i.e. they don’t penetrate the snow as much).
b - the engine is typically in the front, so there’s less weight pushing the tyres into the snow.
Non of the above is applicable to the Tesla.
Still a cool test, just don’t think it’s overly relatable to ICE vehicles.
Cheers as always for the vid - always enjoy your channel 😃
Lol… a lot of ICE are actually very well balanced close and even up to 50%50 and those cars can actually shift 100% of their power to the rear or the front unlike the tesla that can only do 50% from or 59% rear.
Fun test, although I prefer FWD in the real world because it’s predictable. Looking forward to the different Michelin comparisons.
Thanks for this test 😊!
I laughed all the way through this video. Good job.
If you aren't on a race track, FWD with winter tires is probably the safest combination. AWD gives drivers false confidence and impression of traction, and then when they have to turn or brake hard, it's too late and they fly into the ditch.
Very true, I see this alot with Land/Range Rovers, as soon as frost hit there in the ditch, well round my way it is.
There is absolutely no basis for that statement. FWD is in no way safer than RWD, and has negatives too, especially as they usually have very compromised feel and dynamics due to their platform, structure, weight distribution and sub-optimal suspension setup.
@@pistonburner6448 I'm talking about in extreme winter conditions, in the real world and not on a race track.
For most of ppol maybe... For me never gimme AWD every day of the week in any condition
@@billyhw5492 I am talking about that too.
I have those ties on my 2009 Nc Miata and it handles like a champ!! big props to the michelin pilot sport 4s
Still can’t wait for the Pilot Sport 5 review. Heard you have them in the UK. Would love to see a full review and comparison to the PS4S before they land in the US in March
They don't compare to the PS4S, just the PS4, see latest community post!
This was a really cool experiment to watch!
nice review ! but there's 2,2s between FWD and RWD, not 1.2s. In the end, for normal snow driving, keep your Model3 in 4wd.
Appreciating the Casio CA53W-1 cameo at :21. 👍
Swapped Michelin PS4S on my M3 Performance for Pirelli P Zeros as there's a two month wait for Michelins in the UK at the minute. Pirellis are definitely worse - might be ok in the summer, but no use at this time of year (and yes I do know about all seasons - I have them in my car - but lease companies aren't interested). 25k mile Michelins had more grip than brand new Pirellis.
Awesome test
Meanwhile in Norway; people laughing at self proclaimed «tire expert» doing tests with «all weather» tires😅
Oh you're back, you must be really bored.
1) they're American spec ultra high perfosnce all season tires, this was shot in America, these are a tyre that gets used in the model 3. Norway doesn't even have these tyres available. There's more to the world than Norway.
2) this video is about drive train, what does it matter what tyre I'm using?
It would be interesting what consumption the ICE cars are getting in such tests. I doubt it would be 30mpg.
Obviously depends on the car, but definitely low teens or lower
It would be interesting to see what the total EV consumption is including preconditoning before driving, preheating the battery before charging (I believe this Tesla also uses 7kW for that!! They've been seen to do that for half an hour for one charge!!), charging losses (German testers found the BEST cade they found to still be 10%...and with rapid charging it can absolutely skyrocket, and if battery is not at optimum temperature it can skyrocket due to that too!).
I'd rather save the ten thousand at least by buying an ICE car and save society the TRILLIONS needed to totally change all infrastructure to make them work and all the subsidies needed, and invest a few percent of that to get us to _LOWER_ CO2 emissions with biofuels and e-fuels than we can get to with EVs. We'd also get to lower CO2 _immediately_ since current ICE cars run on biofuels and e-fuels, instead of only after decades of replacing ICE cars with EVs. Then all the rest of that incredibly, astoundingly large amount of money we'd save by NOT forcing everyone to EVs we could invest in things that really, actually educe global warming and better our lives, instead of on the disgraceful LIE that "EV = zero emission" which is only use to steal billions from taxpayers through corruption.
And no, I am not biased, I bought my first EV 5 years ago, have owned several PHEVs, and have now returned to a lightweight ICE because that is the most environmentally friendly in low-mileage covid times _by far_ .
Another brilliant video mate 👌
Can't wait to see you in Finland!
This snow track looks fun as hell but looks fairly flat elevation wise?...a sweet test would be to race on a more hilly terrain to really put the tires and drive modes to it's capabilities
There's 10-20% incline hills but it's useless when the car goes AWD whatever the setting in a straight line!
Can you test also front, back and all wheel drive on snowy hills and do comparison, thx
Completely unrealistic. No one in their normal right mind is going to drive that fast on snowy roads (getting sideways). A more realistic test would be going up and down slopes in the snow in various power modes to check slip and stability.
Great idea and execution!
Thanks!
Which would be on with roads and off camber turns in the snow? The track is somewhat a controlled environment. LSDs have their own character, but I gather would be a value add. Great vid.
You are simply the best :)
Thanks :)
that is what tesla says that control is doing .... but its not. its a slip angle tolerance. we've had them out ice racing before, and they are not ever 100% fwd or 100% rwd. you can watch the wheels, even with "100% rwd, the fronts are still spinning" its basically a slider for traction control, not drive.
Thanx! Professional review as always.
Having driven a RWD Tesla with X ice tires vs a Kia Optima with some off brand winters I can say that FWD is way better than RWD in snow. On flat surfaces like this test, the test is only measuring speed which RWD will dominate since it oversteers vs understeers. Factor in hills etc FWD will be better than RWD.
Just had an 8 series with xdrive loaner with all seasons and I much prefer my rwd m235i with winter tires. You can stop and steer a lot better however with the awd when I couldn't stop I could throw the car into a turn at 15-20 and just slide perfectly through a corner lol
Sounds fun!
Bro, amazing content
❤️
Test is fun .. and it's almost apples to apples comparison .. except weight. ICE single drive cars are lighter, and FWD is the lightest of them all, due not having also extra weight of driveshaft & transmission tunnel to back that RWD has. AWD still would be faster, especially so on loose grip scenarios, but "loss" of fwd & rwd would be a bit smaller.