@@ShinetoZeroX The novel doesn't have specific timeframe, Tomino is very clear about that. He's also quite clear on the fact that he started the project as a means to avoid corporate meddling and escape the confines of Gundam (even though he ultimately failed in the end). There is nothing in the series that ties itself to either of the entries. Besides, Gaia Gear was penned before both Hathaway and BC even started. And no, Kenneth didn't start Metatron.
I enjoyed the Beltorchika's Children manga version of events as they used Beltorchika, instead of shoehorning Chan with insufficient time for her char development. However, what ruined it for me is the Geara Dogas not helping push back axis and retreating to the Rewoola instead, and the omission of their hillarious final exchange.
I'll keep an eye out for the manga now thanks to this, thanks. CCA's Char was different enough from how he acted in both the original series and Zeta to give me the idea that it's not really him, that CCA's "Char" was a copy like Unicorn's Full Frontal, only without knowing it himself. Knowing we get a lot more from Char's perspective in the novel/manga makes me really interested to see how my interpretation would change.
I feel like, after the events of Zeta, Char lost all hope. IMO, he didn't care about any of his stated goals in CCA. I think it was all just a giant, elaborate lie to force Amuro into a duel to the death.
I wouldn't mind that. I feel like the storytelling of CCA was the film's major flaw (too much for too little time) I think the story needs to be retold with more time to breathe. Maybe then we can finally get a good official Nightingale model that stacks up to the MG and RG Hi Nu
I've always felt Char never had any intention of surviving. He would die thus atoning for his sins while forcing Amuro to either see the error of his ways and step into becoming the one to guide humanity into space or to continue to sit back knowing then everyone killed had died for nothing. He flat out tells all of Neo Zeon at the end of his address at Sweetwater that once they've succeeded he will be able to join his father. His father is dead. Once Axis falls, Char has no purpose anymore. He has achieved forcing mankind into outer space but as we see all the way back in Zeta when both Blex and Hayato suggested he become leader of the Federation but he never even tries all the way up to how he describes the political aspects of his roll as the leader of Neo Zeon, he doesn't want to be his father. He, despite being a Newtype, is a product and creature of the old system and has no place in the world he strives to create much less any right to be its leader. But he can be it's martyr.
I agree Char always intended to die. But I would go further in that I don't think he cared about anything other than dying in a glorious duel against his greatest rival. Everything just seems set up. And the way he treated Nanai and Quess (being completely insincere while manipulating them for his own ends) could be a reflection of how he saw everything. I think he was so broken from the events in his life that he lost the ability to feel any love for anyone or anything. He was a fighter and he just wanted to go out fighting.
Thank you for making such a well thought out vidoe on the characters and themes of Gundam. This community has been nothing but lore slop and MS power scaling for so long I gave up hope on there ever being an meaningful discussions of the substance of the franchise
Banger of a video! It made me appreciate CCA more. I watched the movie as a teenager and it seemed too complex and chaotic for me to understand what even happen nor why it happened, but this made me go "Ooooohh!".
You say you could go on about Beltorchika and Amuro for an hour like its a bad thing, I personally would love to see a deep dive into Beltorchika's children. (Yes, I'm biased because its my favorite story of U.C cannon)
It’s something I’d love to do in the future for sure. I was just hoping that this video specifically was going to be a short recommendation video with some facts and stuff, then it turned out to be more work than I thought 😅
I remember a page from the manga that Char talking about Artesia (his sister) in his final moment instead of talking about Lalah. I like that better than the film version. It's like, that is appropriate for him and the story itself.
In an ideal world Sayla would have actually been featured in CCA. It was truly a loss that Sunrise just didn't recast the role if the actress couldn't make time.
There is Definitely, No need to convince me to check this out. Seeing how I always tell people. I prefer this as my actual representation of counter attack. In my brain, it will forever be the only counter attack, it just starts to be messy a little when I have to tell people to watch halfway since they change halfway to fit more with the movie.
What even more sad to me that Gundam fans still prefer CCA for any cons that i have with the movie, like they prefer chan or tbought that the final dialogue was more profound than anything the manga had executed. I don't get Gundam fans sometimes
I prefer Bel simply because CCA gives no reason why she and Amuro split up. Chan is ok but her death has zero emotional weight and even though Amuro clearly senses it, it has no effect on him whatsoever. He loses another love interest but it doesn't matter to him. And BC gives so much more meat to the story that I ended up preferring it. I don't know what the rest of the fandom is smoking to prefer CCA over BC. Its the same story but with more to it and actual stakes for Amuro to fight for.
High Streamer is the original novel that the movie and Bel's children are based on. The Mecha Designs were very different from the final movie but the overall plot and characters are Largely the same although the novel was able to expand on certain character's inner thoughts and POV. Beltorchika's Children is a novel based on an expanded version of High Streamer. When Sunrise/Bandai told tomino they wanted to adapt High Streamer into a movie he added some additional details to fill more of the script, in particular, having Beltorchika be married to Amuro and have him be a family man. The execs rejected this idea on the basis that it wasn't "appealing to youngsters" to have the MC be a dad. Tomino eventually released this version as a Novel and it's also gotten a manga adaptation. It features new Mobile suits as well, mainly the Hi-Nu Gundam replacing Nu-Gundam for Amuro and the Nightingale replacing the Sazabi for Char. Finally, Char's Counterattack is the final movie we know today. It is essentially a straight adaptation of the original High Streamer Novel but with updated mech designs.
Most of what you say isn't true. Hi-Streamer isn't what the movie is based on. It started out as another project with the intention of being its own sprawling thing. Tomino laments about the fact that it ended up being associated with the film and it's defacto prequel in the final volume. Beltorchika was born as a special project for Kadokawa after the fact because they dropped the ball and didn't have a tie-in to the film. It's based on his original draft idea for the film, yes, but it has zero ties. Hi-Streamer tells a very different story from the film and has divergent plot points. Give them a read.
I like to imagine that while the film was very much Char's story, the novel balances the focus between them by highlighting the contrast between how the past several conflicts have affected them both. The main reason speculated as to why they demanded the movie be more like the High Streamer novel was probably because Amuro being a family man would have made the ending a little more tragic than they were hoping. Which makes, but leave it to execs in suits running the anime industry to be averse to taking risks.
Gundam isn't exactly a happy go lucky franchise. One of my major complainst about UC is how it is just endless misery and hatred. Only a few years earlier, Sunrise ended Zeta by killing everyone off and having the hero go insane. I doubt Sunrise was ever against a tragic ending in Gundam.
I understand that Tomino wrote ANOTHER version of CCA in Gundam High Streamer. I don't think that novel had ever been translated (officially or by fans) but I think I heard that it was a little closer to the film version, but still different enough to be distinct. CCA all around seems to have been a troubled production. IMO, it kinda shows in the final product. Don't get me wrong, it is great, one of the best looking anime films of the 80s. However, things just feel rushed. Too many characters. Too many plot points. Too much happening. And too little time to develop everything. It isn't as bad as F91, but CCA probably would have been better served to be a 6-12 part OVA rather than a 2 hour film. P.S. If you are interested in Gundam in other mediums, I encourage you to read the novel trilogy of 0079. It is quite interesting and I think it gives you some insight into Tomino's mind since he didn't need to accommodate sponsors or networks. Much different than the TV series. More hard sci-fi, less anime melodrama. But it does fill in some little details that aren't explained in the anime.
Bro, I do not care what anybody else says I feel like A Dish should have been the original movie of all the great action scenes I was kind of disappointed when I first watched the movie I probably love Zeta Gundam to Death my favorite anime series of all time and I was super disappointed that my favorite couple in that show ended up breaking up in the movie and then he just goes on to another girl the worst part about it was that this other girl ended up dying so it all felt pointless but at least I found this manga and oh my gosh I love it so much I'm still waiting for it though.
I think you misrepresent the Char in the movie a little, because you know too much stuff that was added to the gundam franchise later on. As someone who watched everything in the release order, I was really confused by the CCA. Zeta left Char as someone who admited he was wrong in the past and should reform the world, even started becoming friend with amuro. He fights against tyranny, both from federation AND the spacenoids (main reason why he hates Haman is because she repeats the mistakes made by the zabi, not some romance shit from the "deleted affairs" written years later). Then ZZ just totally ignored him, suggesting he hide real mineva so nobody could use her (or he could use her himself). ...and then, out of the blue, CCA happens, Char is bad again, he's the lider of the new Zeon created out of ass and mineva is nowhere to be seen. But he's NOT self-serving when he hurts other people around him - that one thing is actually exactly same as in the manga. He does everything for the sake of his plan of forcing people to move out of the earth, because he belives that by turning everyone into spacenoid there will be no reason to fight anymore. Unfortunately this part of the movie is explained so poorly, that without reading wikipedia you cant really grasp what he wants to achive. Instead, the movie wastes ENORMOUS time on explaining the OYW and his past rivalry with Amuro to the newcomers (its the main reason why Quess and Hathaway are in this movie). Also, there's that infamous line about Lalah, which turns everything into Chars mommy issue out of the blue, making you think that he wasn't even really interested in this spacenoid shit, but he just wanted a pretext to fight amuro once again. I hate the movie for that. ...but this is also the place where the manga shines, because everything is put where it should be. There's still the rivalry, but most important thing is the ideological fight - Char belives that he MUST do what he does, even if he hates it, because otherwise humanity wont change and kill itself before learns the lesson. Amuro belives that we're almost there and humanity can change without forcing it out of earth. In the end, it turns out both were "right" - their struggle creates a phenomenon that turns EVERYONE in the battlefiled into newtypes for a moment. They finally "truly understand each other" and finally get that fighting is pointless, because they're all one human race. And that's why everyone rushes to stop the axis from falling. Movie doesn't explain that at all, just make everything flashy. uff, it looks like I've made an essey myself lol.
CHEEMS!!! MEET ME AT RISKY REELS TO FINISH OUR WAR! I WILL PROVE TO MY WIFE AND KIDS THAT I AM THE HONORED SWEAT!! PREPARE TO BE BOXED AND DOUBLE PUMPED
the novel has 2 sequels, the original Hathaway’s Flash Novel and Gaia Gear
I gotta read Gaia Gear when I can, Hathaway’s novels were a lot better than I could’ve imagined
@ the Gaia Gear novel is currently being translated by ZeonicScans
Gaia Gear isn't a sequel to Hathaway's Flash.
Actually it sort of is and sort of isn't given when it takes place
@@ShinetoZeroX The novel doesn't have specific timeframe, Tomino is very clear about that. He's also quite clear on the fact that he started the project as a means to avoid corporate meddling and escape the confines of Gundam (even though he ultimately failed in the end). There is nothing in the series that ties itself to either of the entries. Besides, Gaia Gear was penned before both Hathaway and BC even started. And no, Kenneth didn't start Metatron.
I enjoyed the Beltorchika's Children manga version of events as they used Beltorchika, instead of shoehorning Chan with insufficient time for her char development. However, what ruined it for me is the Geara Dogas not helping push back axis and retreating to the Rewoola instead, and the omission of their hillarious final exchange.
I'll keep an eye out for the manga now thanks to this, thanks.
CCA's Char was different enough from how he acted in both the original series and Zeta to give me the idea that it's not really him, that CCA's "Char" was a copy like Unicorn's Full Frontal, only without knowing it himself. Knowing we get a lot more from Char's perspective in the novel/manga makes me really interested to see how my interpretation would change.
I feel like, after the events of Zeta, Char lost all hope. IMO, he didn't care about any of his stated goals in CCA. I think it was all just a giant, elaborate lie to force Amuro into a duel to the death.
Okay, can we adapt this manga as an ova then? I'd watch this over whatever Requiem for Vengeance is.
I wouldn't mind that. I feel like the storytelling of CCA was the film's major flaw (too much for too little time) I think the story needs to be retold with more time to breathe.
Maybe then we can finally get a good official Nightingale model that stacks up to the MG and RG Hi Nu
I've always felt Char never had any intention of surviving. He would die thus atoning for his sins while forcing Amuro to either see the error of his ways and step into becoming the one to guide humanity into space or to continue to sit back knowing then everyone killed had died for nothing. He flat out tells all of Neo Zeon at the end of his address at Sweetwater that once they've succeeded he will be able to join his father. His father is dead. Once Axis falls, Char has no purpose anymore. He has achieved forcing mankind into outer space but as we see all the way back in Zeta when both Blex and Hayato suggested he become leader of the Federation but he never even tries all the way up to how he describes the political aspects of his roll as the leader of Neo Zeon, he doesn't want to be his father. He, despite being a Newtype, is a product and creature of the old system and has no place in the world he strives to create much less any right to be its leader. But he can be it's martyr.
I agree Char always intended to die. But I would go further in that I don't think he cared about anything other than dying in a glorious duel against his greatest rival. Everything just seems set up. And the way he treated Nanai and Quess (being completely insincere while manipulating them for his own ends) could be a reflection of how he saw everything.
I think he was so broken from the events in his life that he lost the ability to feel any love for anyone or anything. He was a fighter and he just wanted to go out fighting.
The manga version of Beltorchika’s Children is being officially released state side and it’s wonderful.
Thank you for making such a well thought out vidoe on the characters and themes of Gundam.
This community has been nothing but lore slop and MS power scaling for so long I gave up hope on there ever being an meaningful discussions of the substance of the franchise
Banger of a video! It made me appreciate CCA more. I watched the movie as a teenager and it seemed too complex and chaotic for me to understand what even happen nor why it happened, but this made me go "Ooooohh!".
Cheems talking about Char's Counterattack? Hell yea!
You say you could go on about Beltorchika and Amuro for an hour like its a bad thing, I personally would love to see a deep dive into Beltorchika's children. (Yes, I'm biased because its my favorite story of U.C cannon)
It’s something I’d love to do in the future for sure. I was just hoping that this video specifically was going to be a short recommendation video with some facts and stuff, then it turned out to be more work than I thought 😅
@CheemsBased well it worked, I click IMMEDIATELY when I saw it.
Spend 16 hours at your local Wal Mart just people watching she tell me Char is wrong.
Thanks! OMG I totally missed the plot of CCA all these years!!!! lol
My favorite mecha furry has comeback from the dead
I remember a page from the manga that Char talking about Artesia (his sister) in his final moment instead of talking about Lalah. I like that better than the film version. It's like, that is appropriate for him and the story itself.
In an ideal world Sayla would have actually been featured in CCA. It was truly a loss that Sunrise just didn't recast the role if the actress couldn't make time.
Char was supposed to be in ZZ and act as a guerrilla commander again vs neo Zeon. CCA would not have been able to happen if char was scrapped from ZZ.
There is Definitely, No need to convince me to check this out. Seeing how I always tell people. I prefer this as my actual representation of counter attack.
In my brain, it will forever be the only counter attack, it just starts to be messy a little when I have to tell people to watch halfway since they change halfway to fit more with the movie.
we also have Hi Streamer
I don't think that has ever been translated, so non-Japanese fans are out of luck.
Would love a full essay vid about char and amuro
What even more sad to me that Gundam fans still prefer CCA for any cons that i have with the movie, like they prefer chan or tbought that the final dialogue was more profound than anything the manga had executed. I don't get Gundam fans sometimes
I prefer Bel simply because CCA gives no reason why she and Amuro split up. Chan is ok but her death has zero emotional weight and even though Amuro clearly senses it, it has no effect on him whatsoever. He loses another love interest but it doesn't matter to him. And BC gives so much more meat to the story that I ended up preferring it. I don't know what the rest of the fandom is smoking to prefer CCA over BC. Its the same story but with more to it and actual stakes for Amuro to fight for.
High Streamer is the original novel that the movie and Bel's children are based on. The Mecha Designs were very different from the final movie but the overall plot and characters are Largely the same although the novel was able to expand on certain character's inner thoughts and POV.
Beltorchika's Children is a novel based on an expanded version of High Streamer. When Sunrise/Bandai told tomino they wanted to adapt High Streamer into a movie he added some additional details to fill more of the script, in particular, having Beltorchika be married to Amuro and have him be a family man. The execs rejected this idea on the basis that it wasn't "appealing to youngsters" to have the MC be a dad. Tomino eventually released this version as a Novel and it's also gotten a manga adaptation. It features new Mobile suits as well, mainly the Hi-Nu Gundam replacing Nu-Gundam for Amuro and the Nightingale replacing the Sazabi for Char.
Finally, Char's Counterattack is the final movie we know today. It is essentially a straight adaptation of the original High Streamer Novel but with updated mech designs.
Most of what you say isn't true. Hi-Streamer isn't what the movie is based on. It started out as another project with the intention of being its own sprawling thing. Tomino laments about the fact that it ended up being associated with the film and it's defacto prequel in the final volume. Beltorchika was born as a special project for Kadokawa after the fact because they dropped the ball and didn't have a tie-in to the film. It's based on his original draft idea for the film, yes, but it has zero ties.
Hi-Streamer tells a very different story from the film and has divergent plot points. Give them a read.
I like to imagine that while the film was very much Char's story, the novel balances the focus between them by highlighting the contrast between how the past several conflicts have affected them both.
The main reason speculated as to why they demanded the movie be more like the High Streamer novel was probably because Amuro being a family man would have made the ending a little more tragic than they were hoping. Which makes, but leave it to execs in suits running the anime industry to be averse to taking risks.
Gundam isn't exactly a happy go lucky franchise. One of my major complainst about UC is how it is just endless misery and hatred. Only a few years earlier, Sunrise ended Zeta by killing everyone off and having the hero go insane. I doubt Sunrise was ever against a tragic ending in Gundam.
"longly awaited" wtf
Camile becoming a quiet dude
and I always wished char stayed with the good guys
@@k.Miles789 Char was never a "good" guy. Beltorchika points it out plainly in Zeta.
@@narutoman876 I know, but I wished he was
Quests is like those college students now days, mind washed to think fighting a war to keep the world peace then end up the world at war…..
Where turn a video???
I’m still working on it, it became a lot more challenging than I thought 😭
Okay gang, let's do it, let's make Cheems analyze Z, it's time.
Have you ever checked out the original mobile suit Gundam novelization?
I’ve read a good chunk of it a year or two ago, I enjoyed what I read so far but I haven’t continued it since then
Beard Noah is Best Bright
I understand that Tomino wrote ANOTHER version of CCA in Gundam High Streamer. I don't think that novel had ever been translated (officially or by fans) but I think I heard that it was a little closer to the film version, but still different enough to be distinct.
CCA all around seems to have been a troubled production. IMO, it kinda shows in the final product. Don't get me wrong, it is great, one of the best looking anime films of the 80s. However, things just feel rushed. Too many characters. Too many plot points. Too much happening. And too little time to develop everything. It isn't as bad as F91, but CCA probably would have been better served to be a 6-12 part OVA rather than a 2 hour film.
P.S. If you are interested in Gundam in other mediums, I encourage you to read the novel trilogy of 0079. It is quite interesting and I think it gives you some insight into Tomino's mind since he didn't need to accommodate sponsors or networks. Much different than the TV series. More hard sci-fi, less anime melodrama. But it does fill in some little details that aren't explained in the anime.
Bro, I do not care what anybody else says I feel like A Dish should have been the original movie of all the great action scenes I was kind of disappointed when I first watched the movie I probably love Zeta Gundam to Death my favorite anime series of all time and I was super disappointed that my favorite couple in that show ended up breaking up in the movie and then he just goes on to another girl the worst part about it was that this other girl ended up dying so it all felt pointless but at least I found this manga and oh my gosh I love it so much I'm still waiting for it though.
Cool😢
I think you misrepresent the Char in the movie a little, because you know too much stuff that was added to the gundam franchise later on. As someone who watched everything in the release order, I was really confused by the CCA. Zeta left Char as someone who admited he was wrong in the past and should reform the world, even started becoming friend with amuro. He fights against tyranny, both from federation AND the spacenoids (main reason why he hates Haman is because she repeats the mistakes made by the zabi, not some romance shit from the "deleted affairs" written years later). Then ZZ just totally ignored him, suggesting he hide real mineva so nobody could use her (or he could use her himself).
...and then, out of the blue, CCA happens, Char is bad again, he's the lider of the new Zeon created out of ass and mineva is nowhere to be seen. But he's NOT self-serving when he hurts other people around him - that one thing is actually exactly same as in the manga. He does everything for the sake of his plan of forcing people to move out of the earth, because he belives that by turning everyone into spacenoid there will be no reason to fight anymore. Unfortunately this part of the movie is explained so poorly, that without reading wikipedia you cant really grasp what he wants to achive. Instead, the movie wastes ENORMOUS time on explaining the OYW and his past rivalry with Amuro to the newcomers (its the main reason why Quess and Hathaway are in this movie). Also, there's that infamous line about Lalah, which turns everything into Chars mommy issue out of the blue, making you think that he wasn't even really interested in this spacenoid shit, but he just wanted a pretext to fight amuro once again. I hate the movie for that.
...but this is also the place where the manga shines, because everything is put where it should be. There's still the rivalry, but most important thing is the ideological fight - Char belives that he MUST do what he does, even if he hates it, because otherwise humanity wont change and kill itself before learns the lesson. Amuro belives that we're almost there and humanity can change without forcing it out of earth. In the end, it turns out both were "right" - their struggle creates a phenomenon that turns EVERYONE in the battlefiled into newtypes for a moment. They finally "truly understand each other" and finally get that fighting is pointless, because they're all one human race. And that's why everyone rushes to stop the axis from falling. Movie doesn't explain that at all, just make everything flashy.
uff, it looks like I've made an essey myself lol.
When Seed?
When it gets good
Lol
CHEEMS!!! MEET ME AT RISKY REELS TO FINISH OUR WAR! I WILL PROVE TO MY WIFE AND KIDS THAT I AM THE HONORED SWEAT!! PREPARE TO BE BOXED AND DOUBLE PUMPED
@@CheemsBased So episode 1.
when tf one
👀
I still hate quess paraya