_"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more." - George S. Patton_ The traditionalist martial prowess the Klingons show in their battle formations is indeed an impressive display. Combined with the more (at least during TNG & DS9) defensive minded Federation, they two complement each other quite well. Also interesting that unlike UFP & Romulans, Klingons have for their starship ranks Maj, Col, & Gen, rather than Commodore & Adm.
Dude I see you a lot with videos and channels relating to sci fi your like quasi famous it would interesting to see a youtuber being known for just posting up comments long live the GTU
@@gamer24d ; Yeah, this specific account is mainly designated for Sci-Fi stuff; though I would not consider myself that noticeable. I'm just a man who enjoys watching these types of quality videos and I give out my own thought or two at times. Terra Invicta. Forward Antares. Qapla!
I mean. Best offense is defense and best defense is offense. Outside video games both concepts are interconnected. When you attacking, you are exposed and as such preventing being destroyed play crucial role. Modern defense plans assume ambushes and counter-offenses, what on technical level aren't defensive actions.
@@TheRezro ; I agree. That why I said the more offensive doctrine of the Klingons and the more defensive doctrine of the Federation complement each other well. It's much better to have both than just one.
Sounds like they have similar tactics to the early and mid Mongols, which is basically cavalry tactics (both light and heavy). With regards to raids, strike unexpectedly, strike quickly, grab teh loot and run. Wwith regards to large organized forces, harrass with light forces. Trick them into a pursuit till their ships get strung out and disorganized, then strike with heavy heavy forces. Most people do not realize the Mongols had heavy cavalry, not just light horse archers. Not as heavy as Western knghts, but probably a bit heavier than medium cavalry of the time. They were usually held back in reserve, often hidden. When the horses of Western knights were tired out chasing the light missile cavalry, the heavy cavalry then charged into them head on as the light cav wheeled around to strike at the flanks and rear.
In a sense? Yes and no. Both factions were known from swarming. The difference is how they did that? Cardiassians were heavily organized to compensate lack of decent command. When Klingons are masters of semi independent actions and opportunism.
Maneuver warfare is basically what has defined modern warfare since WW2. The US Marines really hammered this home with Island Hopping all the way to Iwo Jima so bombers would be ever closer to Japan. Air Cavalry and Mechanized groups are prime examples today. In the sense of the Klingons they'd attack and draw off attackers/defenders and hit from different directions. Their violence of action is with their surprise or cloak and dagger tactic - this is seen in Sacrifice of Angels and Battle of Khitomer.
This is like Soviet “deep battle” probing for weakness and diverting forces to the breach where it occurs. Deep battle has similar attributes to blitzkrieg but is less focused leaning into actions on a broader front to make use of the manpower
yeah i recently read Bessonov's "Tank rider" and you do see how the soviets put together a mobile warfare doctrine to rival the germans. which of course carried through into the red army of the cold war.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 deep battle was a concept before the germans started testing armored units. It's problem is it lacked defensive considerations until mid way in the war, though in space battle being defensive is dangerous since there's so much space out there to get bypassed
@@TheRezro You got it inverted. Deep battle gave no importance to defense until the barbarossa came and they had to learn in practice. It's to the merits of the germans that the attacks were so costly for the soviets. German doctrine always had a huge deal of the defensive aspect, since they had to hold their own encirclements. But when the soviets went against Japan, in 2 weeks they were in Pequin
Something to Think About: 1 Vorcha Wing + 1 Mixed Wing + 1 B’Rel Wing + 2 K’Tinga wings + The Neghvar + 1 Extra B’rel = The Klingon fleet in “Way of the Warrior.” So these units 100% can be canon
On a strategic level the KDF seem to emphasize economic warfare. All those little cloaked ship raiding forward must mess up trade and transport of strategic materials. Especially with the emphasis on offense action, I would think that they would be capable of sweeping the star lanes clear of trade. Think Great War British cruisers that are submarines.
It is like German World 2 tactics of grouping tanks divisions into Panzer Corp, later Panzer Armies, by attaching them at the front of German Army roups that are largely made up of infantry division, to give more offensive firepower to break up the enemy's forces. Since the Panzer Armies are more mobile, they too use maneuver warfare. If that right, the rest of the Army Group would exploited the openings created by them to finish the enemy off. The problem is since most of the German World War 2 Army is largely foot infantry, often the tank units have to slow down for them to catch up. Ironically, even in the Panzer Armies, there are more infantry divisions than tank divisions. Tank divisions and mechanized infantry divisions, called panzergrenadier divisions since they have one battalion of tanks, were only 10% of the entire Germany World War 2 Army. So they are attached to larger units like field armies as needed
I don’t think you’ve done a breakdown of Federation doctrine. I’d like to see how Captain Sisko used his fleet in the battle to retake DS9. The Galaxy wings in particular stick out to me. I imagine it’s similar to what you showed here, simply with Galaxy, Ambassador, and Miranda class ships instead of the Klingon counterparts. You could even do a more modernized Federation fleet doctrine for Borg incursions. If you have already made these videos, I’d love to watch them all 😁
I've already covered anti-borg tactics in these two "Assimilate this!" th-cam.com/video/sZU7hcEZ9Z0/w-d-xo.html and "The Battle of Sector 001" th-cam.com/video/xnmc7xJVDvM/w-d-xo.html
Would you be interested in doing a Federation fleet doctrine or similar breakdown for Operation Return? Personally, the fleet doctrine videos are my favorites to watch. Doesn’t matter what species, it’s always enjoyable.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There's a bit more on Federation formations and tactics from the Last Unicorn Games RPG books, like Fires of Armageddon - but it's of questionable canonicity, of course.
One thing I have questioned about the Klingons is their devotion to honor doesn't seem to align with the use of cloaking technology. Cloaking is for either hiding, or ambushing. Neither seems to align with their idea of honor.
cloak is generally used for maneuvering and surprise. this contrasts with the romulan use of the cloak which is more defensive. as long you are not employing the cloak out of cowardice. it is acceptable.
@@jasonskeans3327 Maybe not but most information on what they view as honorable, and dishonorable suggest, at least to me, that the cloaking system goes against what they view as honor.
@@RickySpanish12344 no it doesn't it enables victory and victory is the most honorable there is nothing dishonorable with having a advantage over an enemy and besides they decloak before firing
I wanted to ask any chance to see the short Federation-Klingon War with the battles in Cardassian space going to well to push to reclaim holy space As in a alternate timeline the start of the Yesterday Enterprise war with the Stargazer alone to defend but thanks to the Enterprise-C called off now they open and Starfleet had enough of enough and holding ground while the newest flagship the USS Enterprise-E to show the flag along with the station Galaxy class in AO to back up Enterprise-E overall the Federation 5th Fleet (Southern Alpha) and elements of the 6th Fleet (Core) while the newly created 7th operating up near Borg encounter space USS Enterprise-E, USS Galaxy and USS Magellan along with 1 Fleet and a half mostly Task Force Bravo live action Before one Galaxy to hold the line now a Fleet but the Klingons never attack where expected to draw Federation forces away as before ignore Starbase 12 or 24 a Spacedock a relic from the old days modernized take it out cripple logistics Starfleet believe Klingon honor unaware of the Changling commander attack where they should No one wanted a fight they got one as the Admiral dead as Admiral Paris takes command of the Fleet to fight where ever Starfleet can till 6th Fleet arrives
I wonder what your take on Starfleet is. Personally, it seems a lot of their fleet doctrine is a rapid response when on the defensive, combined with performing surgical strikes as they will ignore most targets but those that give a strategic advantage. Meaning they will not occupy worlds, but go after and destroy things like factories, shipyards, and such to destroy their ability to fight a war. The only time they move to occupy a world seems to hold it to allow them to strike deeper into enemy territory. Something they are really good at for the Dominion lost more facilities to the Federation strikes despite being the only one that does not use cloaking technology.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail and every shape way and form provided on Klingon fleet doctrine and their main battle tactics and so forth indeed👌.
Cool setup! Rather like how you put it out. The opposite of Cardassian which is top down. In Klingon tactics, the fleet leader basically rides herd. Sort of tangential - how do you see TOS era Klingon tactics?
So obviously it's smaller scale. Than in the 24th century. Maneuver still has a role in achieving local superiority. We see that in eylaan of troyuis they use warp drive to perform hit and run attacks.
so by the dominion war they are being phased out. since they were more of a stop-gap between the ktinga and the vorcha. but they probably still saw use in reserve and territorial defense units.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Considering that the Klingon Empire used K'tinga-class and D7s all the way up to the Dominion War, I don't think they phase ANYTHING out.
@@robertbarrows6687 true. but they were only used because they filled a new role. whereas anything a Kvort could do the Vorcha would do better. now your right they probably wouldn't be scrapped. but were likely relegated to territorial defense.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think they'd probably be brought in for whenever the Vorcha was unavailable due to their size, firepower and other capabilities. Hell from TNG it looks like they could have been a match for a D'Driendex-class Battleship...something like that would be wasted on territorial defense.
is it me or would a klingon force and a federation force who had trained together a lot and formed a coordinated force would be massively effectively and cover the vast bulk of each others weaknesses and amplify their strengths
Was there an addendum made to Klingon off ranks in men alpha never heard of a major It usually Lt. Cdr Capt Col Brig and Gen with the occasional Ft. Adm thrown in
The interesting thing with the KDF is that, despite primarily being a naval force like Starfleet, they do use army ranks more commonly (major, colonel, general, etc.). I’m not sure why they did that, maybe just as a way to further differentiate them from Starfleet which uses more of the traditional naval ranks
So in your mind is the Captain of a Klingon ship an Army Captain or Naval Captain? Given that your grouping the ships into Army formations I would think the former, however I could be mistaken.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 KDF? Kentucky Deep Fried? Seriously, they are in spaceships, how do the Marines get to run ships of any kind? Marines were developed to either act as police against the sailors on a ship or as an amphibious force, used to raid enemy territory.
Every senior commander must know this phrase, "You insignificant Tou'pah! Repair our damage or you will be fed to the Wolverines!" SNL skit.
Klingon Fleet doctrine just about boils down to Cavalry tactics *In spaaaaaace*
_"Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more." - George S. Patton_
The traditionalist martial prowess the Klingons show in their battle formations is indeed an impressive display. Combined with the more (at least during TNG & DS9) defensive minded Federation, they two complement each other quite well.
Also interesting that unlike UFP & Romulans, Klingons have for their starship ranks Maj, Col, & Gen, rather than Commodore & Adm.
Dude I see you a lot with videos and channels relating to sci fi your like quasi famous it would interesting to see a youtuber being known for just posting up comments
long live the GTU
@@gamer24d ; Yeah, this specific account is mainly designated for Sci-Fi stuff; though I would not consider myself that noticeable. I'm just a man who enjoys watching these types of quality videos and I give out my own thought or two at times.
Terra Invicta. Forward Antares. Qapla!
I mean. Best offense is defense and best defense is offense. Outside video games both concepts are interconnected. When you attacking, you are exposed and as such preventing being destroyed play crucial role. Modern defense plans assume ambushes and counter-offenses, what on technical level aren't defensive actions.
@@TheRezro ; I agree. That why I said the more offensive doctrine of the Klingons and the more defensive doctrine of the Federation complement each other well. It's much better to have both than just one.
@@occultatumquaestio5226 Agree.
"The best defense is an overwhelming offense." It was better in the original Klingon.
Put another way *WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!*
@@weldonwin Klingons vs Orks would be an interesting fight.
Sounds like they have similar tactics to the early and mid Mongols, which is basically cavalry tactics (both light and heavy).
With regards to raids, strike unexpectedly, strike quickly, grab teh loot and run.
Wwith regards to large organized forces, harrass with light forces. Trick them into a pursuit till their ships get strung out and disorganized, then strike with heavy heavy forces. Most people do not realize the Mongols had heavy cavalry, not just light horse archers. Not as heavy as Western knghts, but probably a bit heavier than medium cavalry of the time. They were usually held back in reserve, often hidden. When the horses of Western knights were tired out chasing the light missile cavalry, the heavy cavalry then charged into them head on as the light cav wheeled around to strike at the flanks and rear.
Mongoltage time?
Definitely it probably was part of klingon tactics since the 22nd century which were very irregular.
@@venomgeekmedia9886
The "House" structure is very reminiscent of a clan structure.
@@ycplum7062 definitely and it's much more pronounced in the 22nd century. I do have plans for a klingon vs orion series.
First to the breach, I demand honor!
TL;DR: Klingon fleet doctrine is the exact opposite of Cardassian fleet doctrine.
In a sense? Yes and no. Both factions were known from swarming. The difference is how they did that? Cardiassians were heavily organized to compensate lack of decent command. When Klingons are masters of semi independent actions and opportunism.
The art work is always appreciated. I liked the vorcha getting breached and the neghvar with escorts
glad you enjoyed.
Maneuver warfare is basically what has defined modern warfare since WW2. The US Marines really hammered this home with Island Hopping all the way to Iwo Jima so bombers would be ever closer to Japan. Air Cavalry and Mechanized groups are prime examples today.
In the sense of the Klingons they'd attack and draw off attackers/defenders and hit from different directions. Their violence of action is with their surprise or cloak and dagger tactic - this is seen in Sacrifice of Angels and Battle of Khitomer.
Island hopping is positional warfare though
This is like Soviet “deep battle” probing for weakness and diverting forces to the breach where it occurs. Deep battle has similar attributes to blitzkrieg but is less focused leaning into actions on a broader front to make use of the manpower
yeah i recently read Bessonov's "Tank rider" and you do see how the soviets put together a mobile warfare doctrine to rival the germans. which of course carried through into the red army of the cold war.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 deep battle was a concept before the germans started testing armored units. It's problem is it lacked defensive considerations until mid way in the war, though in space battle being defensive is dangerous since there's so much space out there to get bypassed
Eh? Whole concept is heavily questioned and work only due to immense sacrifices. Where Soviet doctrine work best are the defensive actions.
@@TheRezro it worked
@@TheRezro You got it inverted. Deep battle gave no importance to defense until the barbarossa came and they had to learn in practice. It's to the merits of the germans that the attacks were so costly for the soviets. German doctrine always had a huge deal of the defensive aspect, since they had to hold their own encirclements. But when the soviets went against Japan, in 2 weeks they were in Pequin
Cheers i was looking forward to this one especially
Great breakdown on klingon fleet operations
Something to Think About:
1 Vorcha Wing + 1 Mixed Wing + 1 B’Rel Wing + 2 K’Tinga wings + The Neghvar + 1 Extra B’rel = The Klingon fleet in “Way of the Warrior.” So these units 100% can be canon
On a strategic level the KDF seem to emphasize economic warfare. All those little cloaked ship raiding forward must mess up trade and transport of strategic materials. Especially with the emphasis on offense action, I would think that they would be capable of sweeping the star lanes clear of trade. Think Great War British cruisers that are submarines.
definitely. certainly once the conventional offensive ends. one way or the other. they do move to more irregular tactics.
It is like German World 2 tactics of grouping tanks divisions into Panzer Corp, later Panzer Armies, by attaching them at the front of German Army roups that are largely made up of infantry division, to give more offensive firepower to break up the enemy's forces. Since the Panzer Armies are more mobile, they too use maneuver warfare. If that right, the rest of the Army Group would exploited the openings created by them to finish the enemy off.
The problem is since most of the German World War 2 Army is largely foot infantry, often the tank units have to slow down for them to catch up. Ironically, even in the Panzer Armies, there are more infantry divisions than tank divisions. Tank divisions and mechanized infantry divisions, called panzergrenadier divisions since they have one battalion of tanks, were only 10% of the entire Germany World War 2 Army. So they are attached to larger units like field armies as needed
agreed sound verry much like ww2 german doctrine
I agree it does sound like German panzer warfare
I'd like to see a fleet breakdown. Go through each faction and list all the ships and brief rundown of the ships.
I don’t think you’ve done a breakdown of Federation doctrine. I’d like to see how Captain Sisko used his fleet in the battle to retake DS9. The Galaxy wings in particular stick out to me. I imagine it’s similar to what you showed here, simply with Galaxy, Ambassador, and Miranda class ships instead of the Klingon counterparts.
You could even do a more modernized Federation fleet doctrine for Borg incursions.
If you have already made these videos, I’d love to watch them all 😁
I've already covered anti-borg tactics in these two
"Assimilate this!" th-cam.com/video/sZU7hcEZ9Z0/w-d-xo.html
and "The Battle of Sector 001" th-cam.com/video/xnmc7xJVDvM/w-d-xo.html
Would you be interested in doing a Federation fleet doctrine or similar breakdown for Operation Return? Personally, the fleet doctrine videos are my favorites to watch. Doesn’t matter what species, it’s always enjoyable.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There's a bit more on Federation formations and tactics from the Last Unicorn Games RPG books, like Fires of Armageddon - but it's of questionable canonicity, of course.
I think Starfleet just goes "Well, it worked for the Klingons so it probably would work for us also"
One thing I have questioned about the Klingons is their devotion to honor doesn't seem to align with the use of cloaking technology. Cloaking is for either hiding, or ambushing. Neither seems to align with their idea of honor.
Nothing is more honorable than victory.
cloak is generally used for maneuvering and surprise. this contrasts with the romulan use of the cloak which is more defensive. as long you are not employing the cloak out of cowardice. it is acceptable.
Humans and Klingon have different ideas of honour and do not match 1 to 1
@@jasonskeans3327 Maybe not but most information on what they view as honorable, and dishonorable suggest, at least to me, that the cloaking system goes against what they view as honor.
@@RickySpanish12344 no it doesn't it enables victory and victory is the most honorable there is nothing dishonorable with having a advantage over an enemy and besides they decloak before firing
I wanted to ask any chance to see the short Federation-Klingon War with the battles in Cardassian space going to well to push to reclaim holy space
As in a alternate timeline the start of the Yesterday Enterprise war with the Stargazer alone to defend but thanks to the Enterprise-C called off now they open and Starfleet had enough of enough and holding ground while the newest flagship the USS Enterprise-E to show the flag along with the station Galaxy class in AO to back up Enterprise-E overall the Federation 5th Fleet (Southern Alpha) and elements of the 6th Fleet (Core) while the newly created 7th operating up near Borg encounter space
USS Enterprise-E, USS Galaxy and USS Magellan along with 1 Fleet and a half mostly Task Force Bravo live action
Before one Galaxy to hold the line now a Fleet but the Klingons never attack where expected to draw Federation forces away as before ignore Starbase 12 or 24 a Spacedock a relic from the old days modernized take it out cripple logistics Starfleet believe Klingon honor unaware of the Changling commander attack where they should
No one wanted a fight they got one as the Admiral dead as Admiral Paris takes command of the Fleet to fight where ever Starfleet can till 6th Fleet arrives
YES , the Klingon version of Blitzkrieg
2 people who gave this a thumbs down are without honor!
Indeed they R
Glory to you, Venom! And your houuuse. O O
I wonder what your take on Starfleet is.
Personally, it seems a lot of their fleet doctrine is a rapid response when on the defensive, combined with performing surgical strikes as they will ignore most targets but those that give a strategic advantage. Meaning they will not occupy worlds, but go after and destroy things like factories, shipyards, and such to destroy their ability to fight a war. The only time they move to occupy a world seems to hold it to allow them to strike deeper into enemy territory. Something they are really good at for the Dominion lost more facilities to the Federation strikes despite being the only one that does not use cloaking technology.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail and every shape way and form provided on Klingon fleet doctrine and their main battle tactics and so forth indeed👌.
Another video well done. Thank you.
Cool setup! Rather like how you put it out. The opposite of Cardassian which is top down. In Klingon tactics, the fleet leader basically rides herd.
Sort of tangential - how do you see TOS era Klingon tactics?
So obviously it's smaller scale. Than in the 24th century. Maneuver still has a role in achieving local superiority. We see that in eylaan of troyuis they use warp drive to perform hit and run attacks.
Where do the bigger classes of Birds of Prey fit in the doctrine, the ones we saw during TNG?
so by the dominion war they are being phased out. since they were more of a stop-gap between the ktinga and the vorcha. but they probably still saw use in reserve and territorial defense units.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Considering that the Klingon Empire used K'tinga-class and D7s all the way up to the Dominion War, I don't think they phase ANYTHING out.
@@robertbarrows6687 true. but they were only used because they filled a new role. whereas anything a Kvort could do the Vorcha would do better. now your right they probably wouldn't be scrapped. but were likely relegated to territorial defense.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think they'd probably be brought in for whenever the Vorcha was unavailable due to their size, firepower and other capabilities. Hell from TNG it looks like they could have been a match for a D'Driendex-class Battleship...something like that would be wasted on territorial defense.
@@robertbarrows6687 "a match for the DD" but by the dominion war thats not a particularly useful comparison.
A little like general Patton strategy. ( attack attack attack) .
Do the Romulans great video
definitely on the way but in the meantime you should check out "Raptors Revenge"
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I did I have seen it almost 3 times big fan of your work and Star Trek best sci fi ever
Do romulan doctrine next
is it me or would a klingon force and a federation force who had trained together a lot and formed a coordinated force would be massively effectively and cover the vast bulk of each others weaknesses and amplify their strengths
yes... yes it would...
just a suggestion, can you make a Fleet Doctrine & Organisation playlist?
Definitely shall.
Your awesome and awesome video
Another Extremely fascinating video i can't wait 2 C your nxt video
The german army has called, they want their WW2 handbooks back.
What happened to the Commander level??? Always a great video...
this video was made before i introduced that tier thats all.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Ahhhh
Was there an addendum made to Klingon off ranks in men alpha
never heard of a major
It usually Lt. Cdr Capt Col Brig and Gen with the occasional Ft. Adm thrown in
The interesting thing with the KDF is that, despite primarily being a naval force like Starfleet, they do use army ranks more commonly (major, colonel, general, etc.). I’m not sure why they did that, maybe just as a way to further differentiate them from Starfleet which uses more of the traditional naval ranks
Why was the negh'var not mentioned? Did I just miss it?
wasn't used in significant numbers. and was generally only used in command/ or fire support roles.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ok thanks
As always great in information
So in your mind is the Captain of a Klingon ship an Army Captain or Naval Captain? Given that your grouping the ships into Army formations I would think the former, however I could be mistaken.
I love the video series thank you
thats alot...
Qapla'
tera' voDleH hoch DotlhwI' tu'lu'
the strategy of least respect. where's the honor in an easy victory.
Why army ranks and unit designations? Why not navy?
because the KDF is descended from a Marine force, not a navy.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 KDF? Kentucky Deep Fried? Seriously, they are in spaceships, how do the Marines get to run ships of any kind? Marines were developed to either act as police against the sailors on a ship or as an amphibious force, used to raid enemy territory.