@hillbillypowpow the pin was unexpected. My intent was to troll the postmodernist tick talk psychologists and do a Turing Test for chatbots. Not sure what to do now...
Is it ever really talked about, that when Theon arrives to treat with his dad, they are already planning a rebellion. Which means they knew that Theon could be put to death, and they just didn't care, and he agrees to help them anyway
Dany loves Drago bc this is the happiest and most stable her life has been but that’s not because it is good, it’s because it was so awful before. She’s grateful to him bc he treats her more like a human, but she doesn’t have the perspective to understand that just bc it is better than it was doesn’t mean it’s love. Great video by the way
20:00 You spoke about Robb going against Catelyn’s wishes by not keeping Theon close, but really those were Ned’s wishes. Keeping tabs on Theon was one of the things Ned told Catelyn to do when she was in King’s Landing. Had she told Robb his father wanted him to keep Theon close I believe he would have.
The people who take things wildly out of context probably read the books years ago (or not at all) and then ideas from the show or fandom probably replaced what was there to begin with. That is the only way half of these theories make any sense. For example, the blatant theme of the story in Dorne is that revenge will not make things better, only worse. Every time Doran Martell enacts a revenge plot, one of his beloved family members dies. He is killing his family to get revenge for his family. All of his plots fail miserably. Ellaria even outright says the theme of this story in a speech. And yet, somehow there's people in the fandom who think Doran Martell is a genius whose master plan will win the day and is already crushing the Lannisters.
Also Doran waited way too long to make each move, when made all the plans failed and wasted opportunity…represented by the ripen oranges and his gout that gets worsen thanks to his lack of movement. Which is ironic because Doran is in the same situation as the man George RR Martin himself.
I agree with most points in the video. Except for stuff about marriage not equating to slavery though. I agree that it’s not a fair 1-to-1 comparison. But, well… it seems like kind of a gray area at times. Sure, slavery and marriage in Westeros aren’t quite the same thing: But it’s VERY hard to take that argument seriously when the situations you cite to claim it’s NOT slavery are *Lysa, and Cersei .* Because-besides for Lady Hornwood and Fake!Arya-I couldn’t think of worse examples you could’ve chosen to exemplify the point. (And yes: Lady Hornwood and Fake Arya are both situations you have to contend with if you want to make definite statements about the institution of marriage and slavery having no relation in Westeros. Because both marriage are considered perfectly legal by Westeros’s laws). Cersei makes the comparison of herself being treated and sold like a brood mare countless times. So when Cersei talks about “Marcella being sold to the Dornish like a sack of oats,” I believe that this is GENUINELY her perspective on the matter. It’s her assessment of the situation based upon her own experience. Just because these arranged marriages are considered “normal” by Westeros’s standards, does not mean that they don’t resemble slavery in someways. Much in the same way that *serfdom* is a normal institution of Westeros: Because I don’t think that it would be controversial to say that GRRM is drawing parallels between the Serfdom of Westeros and the naked chattel slavery practiced in Essos. I think that in both these cases GRRM is trying to get readers to think critically about these institutions (arranged marriage and serfdom) which a lot of fantasy takes for granted.
As you said yourself, forced marriages in Westeros and slavery aren't quite the same thing. That is my point. Lysa and Cersei were treated poorly by their fathers but they were not literal slaves. Lysa admitted she had a choice: marry Jon Arryn or her father would turn her out like he did the Blackfish. Cersei said she was queen regent, not a broodmare. Cersei folded in the face of her father but she did have the power to defy him. Something slaves do not have. This is the nuance I touch on in the video. This is the gray area you mention. I think we agree more than we disagree. And you're right: serfdom and slavery are very similar. Tyrion mentions this in Book Five. Which is very interesting since Dany wants to stand against slavery but she also wants to be a queen. Dany thinks in Book Two: I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father. But before she could do that she must conquer. Conquering means the people have no choice but to be her subjects. She views herself as a liberator but her ultimate goal is to be an oppressor.
Theon is the unsung hero of the show because if we look closely, we will realize that - The first sign of show going downhill was a scene in season 4 when Yara/ Asha abandoned Theon to die because she’s afraid of a shirtless Ramsay. That scene was meant to demonize Theon as some kind of coward but right now, people look back at this scene as the assassination of Asha’s character by accident. - The only person whose character arc is intact in season 8 is Theon. For a guy who has no dick and a few fingers, his arc ended beautifully in contrast to everyone else whose arcs got assassinated left, right and center.
I mean I personally cackled when he just ran at the Night's King with a spear. He literally died for nothing, Arya showed up not 30 seconds later. And no, nothing proves that Theon's "sacrifice" gave her time she needed. Since it was shock value we didn't even know where she was and Bran was not in immediate danger when Theon ran up. They were walking slow as hell, not doing anything.
5:45 this is different in the book as Drogo uses coercion rather than physical force against her. It's not nice, but Dany is more "willing" to participate in the consummation of the marriage. The relationship in the books is more "consensual" compared to the show.
Honestly, the coercion is coming more from Dany’s brother than from Drogo. Drogo’s choice to allow Dany agency on their wedding night is very significant in what it represents, and how their relationship progresses because of it.
@@marinawilson3337 too bad for Dany Jon canonically prefers redheads (I have no stake in either camp, and technically Jon is probably just going to stay dead forever rather than us find out anything about anything)
19:44 God, I hope this video includes you getting into Theon with Ramsey instead of Ned, cuz going through all those things one by one is killing me Edit: Oh, good! Just had to be more patient lol.
I would not call what drogho and dany have love. I am on Hills alive side. But also agree on something she gained affection for because he encouraged her beside all this
I guess I don't get why fans still claim this when GRRM has always confirmed they are a love story. Like I get why it feels gross for the show with how they changed the wedding night, but books wise it's very clear they both love each other immensely lol
@@Elliot226 A 13 and 36 year old can't be in love. Idk where/if GRRM confirmed that, but this is an area where his and anyone else's opinion means very little to me.
@@yetz2291 They aren't real people though. Obviously you're right in real life, but these are fictional characters that are telling a story. Should GRRM have aged Dany up from the outset? Yeah, at least 16 would have been easier to digest. But that's a him issue, like many people (including Kevin) mention. They are not real people, GRRM decides their feelings and he has chosen theirs IS a love story.
@@Elliot226I think it’s also a case where multiple things to be true at the same time. Maybe we need to challenge our own ideas about what we label a Love-Story “ought” to be. Because many people do feel genuine feelings of love, even if it’s sometimes experienced in relationships that are bad or unhealthy.
@Elliot226 Some people don't believe age gaps are acceptable even in fiction. And that's perfectly fine. Some people in this fandom reject Lyanna and Rhaegar because she was 16 and he was 20+ and a prince. They believe she was a child and there was a huge power imbalance so there's no way she could consent. The problem is when such people participate in the discourse. Because ASOIAF is medieval fantasy fiction. Though it's not confirmed yet, it's likely going to be revealed Lyanna and Rhaegar was a tragic romance. Was there an age gap and a imbalance of power? Sure. But that's kinda how this world works. When people jump into the discourse to say they don't think certain romances are morally acceptable, even in fiction, I just wonder why are they here? Why they reading these books?
It's oddly comforting to know you didnt do well in French class, I also did bad in French, I basically only know omletu fromage from Dexter lol Also the "its not a crime yet" bit had me busting up XD
@@KevinPendragon Relatable content, I was also distracted by a crush in my french class XD That and magic the gathering and music, there was like an older hooligan nerd who was always tryin to get me to smoke weed and we'd talk a lot in class too lol
Very true. A person can be dressed in the finest clothes and eat the finest foods and still be a slave. However, I am firmly against the idea that Daenerys was an actual litetal sex slave. That just doesn't seem to be the intent. It contradicts her story in many ways For example: if she was a literal slave, why did she go to Slaver’s Bay to buy slaves?
@ I think your video raised a lot of good points, and I think it’s overall really correct, but in my limited opinion I think the truth about her is she is somewhere in between a slave and any other free female character in the book when she married. I think you’re right about the Stockholm syndrome not working for her or other characters, but the reason she is unique when compared to Theon or Sansa for example in my opinion is because she is different from them in that she never had a “home base” of legitimacy like they do. Neither Theon nor Sansa are seen as pretenders, they have bad things happen and very complicated identities but they have some kind of recognizable identity in their mind they can think about and make their way back to in the right conditions someday, at least emotionally. They have a ground floor of knowing if they’re being treated well or badly when they first enter into in their abusive relationships (Theon/Ramsey and Sansa/Littlefinger). I feel like Dany is different than them because she doesn’t start out as anything but someone viewed as a pretender and on the run. The reason she is given to a Khal is because she doesn’t have the legitimacy to make a marriage with another noble family, so she is being given in marriage to a war lord by a brother who touches her sexually in the books and by a much older man. I think this makes it more likely for her to be wowed by the Khal having even minimally decent treatment of her, and I think she sees him through an abused child’s eyes that finally saw someone nice to her. So her devotion is real to him and comparably reasonable, but it’s not how she would act or perceive him if she was a regular Westerosi noblewoman instead of a beaten down, disinherited waif.
I 100% agree that the bit about Illyio selling out friends is probably meant as a figure of speech. But like... considering that Illyrio’s own connections to the slave trade is an open secret, I just realized, it might *not be.* 😮‼️
Love your videos, and usually think you have good takes, however, I'm sorry, but just because Dany is Drogo's wife, doesn't mean she isn't his captive or prisoner? yes there are many others in that situation, but does that change their individual situations? if somebody else decided they had to be in that marriage and they didn't have a say in it, they are basically a prisoner. If Lysa Tully was married off without her choice, she was indeed human property. It doesn't really matter if they are exchanged for literal money or goods or for something like an army or secrets. And on Dany's consent.. James Hibberd said it was consensual in the books, and from the quote you used, GRRM didn't challenge that, but he said it hadn't been discussed and was worse. Are we saying that children can consent? does she really have a choice? what would happen to her if she refused? we know that the Dothraki r*pe, so there's no reason to assume that if she didn't go along with it, that wouldn't have happened.
Daenerys is a fictional character in a grimdark medieval fantasy story. The creator of this story established that yes, she could consent to her encounter with Drogo. This isn't my personal opinion. It's from Martin. I knew I would probably get a comment like this and that is why I stress in the video this is from Martin. Even Emilia Clarke said go to him if you want answers about choices he has made. As for Lysa Arryn: my point is that she was not a slave. Just because goods or gold is exchanged during a marriage, doesnt make someone a slave. Thats what I mean by human proprerty. One thing I argue against in my video is the literal interpretation of events. Yes, Lysa was locked in a loveless marriage but was she a literal prisoner? Yes, Dany was married off to a slaver but was she a literal slave? Because I am always shocked and by the lack of nuance in this fandom. How is Lysa prisoner when she had a choice? "I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother". Prisoners have no choice. These characters (both male and female) are often treated as pawns or property but to say "slave" or "prisoner"... that lacks something. It doesn't tell the full story. As for what Drogo would have done if Dany said no, he would have done nothing. That's why he asked her. The problem is he takes the one yes to mean yes forever
@@KevinPendragon Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden tore emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs. “Now you look all a princess,” the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms.-Dany’s 3 AGOT People always talk about that first Dany scene with Drogo but never bring up the other times were Drogo would rape her during the night to the point were she wanted to off herself. She may not have Stockholm syndrome but her situation was not ideal like a lot of women in ASOIAF. Is Jane Poole is technically the defector lady of Winterfell and the Dreadful but that doesn’t change the fact that she is a sex slave Same with Lysa Arryn just because Jon Arryn treated her well or whatever doesn’t change the fact that she was married to an old man against her wishes and saying that in Westoros it is seen as ok does not make it ok
@@KevinPendragon she might be fictional, that doesn't change the fact she's still a child. medieval fantasy or no, that doesn't change the fact it's CA if she didn't consent to the marriage in the first place, is she "consenting" to the sex or is she making the most of a bad situation? you're saying "it's from Martin" but in the source you gave, it's not even him actually saying that. i don't know what other sources you're talking from. and i'm not even denying that Dany *thinks* she consented, but plenty of underage people sadly think they are having a consensual relationship that's fine and okay but in reality they are being abused by an elder. you're even saying that Drogo serially r*pes her from this point on but somehow you think it would have mattered to him at all if she said no the first time? i didn't at any point disagree with you the word slave isn't the correct one. but you seem to be so focused on the use of that one word that it's blinding you from the bigger picture? "I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother" where is the choice in that? that quote is her explaining why she felt she didn't have a choice. what life would she have had if she chose to be "turned out"? instead, she is trapped in a marriage trying to pop out babies and ruining herself doing so. isn't this like, one of the main themes of HotD s1? i think many women (or men) in situations like this, real or fictional, would describe themselves as feeling like a slave or a prisoner (still not saying they literally are, although i think that's on a case by case basis). i can't understand why you're taking so much issue with that. i don't see where Dany had a choice in any of this. what would you have her do? (:P) she'd likely suffer the same, if not worse if she tried to escape. it's true she's forced into that situation because of her Targaryen identity, but she doesn't have any handsome Crispo's offering to run away and eat oranges with her (yet).
@@lonemotheo1964 What "people" do is pretty irrelevant when you're responding to one person about what they said over the course of an hour and a half. Did you watch the video where he explicitly brings up the things you said "people" ignore? Have you ears to hear the things he's saying that directly address what you've said after the fact? You're not engaging with the material to which you're replying, you're just reiterating your stance.
IT'S HERE!!!! Very very excited for this one I find it pretty funny the fandom wants to focus on the non-SS relationships these characters have vs the ones that actually fit better (Theon/Ramsay and Dany/Viserys - not that those are necessarily true either, but they definitely fit more and are immediately apparent)
Thank you for another great video Kevin. Do you have any ideas about the Thenns? It seems like theyre fleshed out to a point where it seems like we will visit Thenn in winds. .. somehow.
7:57 There were emergency services outside the building and the antidotes were ready. But this was the first time that doctors were faced with the horror and confusion of a real anti-terrorist operation, so tragic mistakes were made. One hundred and thirty people died, but seven hundred and eighty-two were saved. I really like your videos, but, please, next time don't use a national tragedy as a punch line for a joke.
Phoenix Ashes? You mean the asoiaf youtuber that said they hated George, hated the fandom, and used an alias to harass women and tell people to k!ll themselves on Tumblr? The person I exposed in a video on Unreliable Narrators that can be found on my second channel, @MadKingKevin? It would be best if they kept quiet
@KevinPendragon She has Stockholm syndrome with regards to Illyrio who sold her into the Khalasar, her brother who beat her. Tyrion knows about Aegon and has kept his mouth shut for once. (Tywin says - “You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing.”). He'll tell Dany about Illyrios other scheme and play them against each other... he has to paint a worse picture of them then the one she has of the Lannisters to save him from getting executed. And he has a habit of throwing truth in people's faces... just look at how he mocked Jorah on the Stinky Steward.
@KevinPendragon ...ok? Do you just don't want to answer my question? I wasn't looking to debate just to make sure I interpreted the statement correct. No need to act smug
@@murillodaniel9208 That you would completely ignore the utter mountain of evidence that indicates Depp was abusive as well only serves to prove Kevin's point about the vilification of women and the need to paint one party in a good light and the other in bad, regardless of the circumstances. You've done the opposite of what you set out to do.
@@hillbillypowpow literally what are you yapping about? I asked if thats what he said, not what I believed or what was the proof, since that was thr only interpretation I had that made sense based on what he said.
No. Because Stockholm syndrome is a made up phenomenon by spinners defending a government agency that botched a raid and got people injured.
^^^^ THIS ^^^^^
I trusted him to get there eventually
@hillbillypowpow the pin was unexpected. My intent was to troll the postmodernist tick talk psychologists and do a Turing Test for chatbots.
Not sure what to do now...
@@LoreweavverI thought you were an intellectual but I never met one that is talking about postmodernism.
@@FlorianMark if you met someone who self identified as an intellectual then I'm certain they were post modernist idjits from tick talk.
Is it ever really talked about, that when Theon arrives to treat with his dad, they are already planning a rebellion. Which means they knew that Theon could be put to death, and they just didn't care, and he agrees to help them anyway
And Theon never realizes it. Sad stuff.
@@KevinPendragonused by the Starks and grejoys
Dany loves Drago bc this is the happiest and most stable her life has been but that’s not because it is good, it’s because it was so awful before. She’s grateful to him bc he treats her more like a human, but she doesn’t have the perspective to understand that just bc it is better than it was doesn’t mean it’s love.
Great video by the way
20:00 You spoke about Robb going against Catelyn’s wishes by not keeping Theon close, but really those were Ned’s wishes. Keeping tabs on Theon was one of the things Ned told Catelyn to do when she was in King’s Landing. Had she told Robb his father wanted him to keep Theon close I believe he would have.
The people who take things wildly out of context probably read the books years ago (or not at all) and then ideas from the show or fandom probably replaced what was there to begin with. That is the only way half of these theories make any sense.
For example, the blatant theme of the story in Dorne is that revenge will not make things better, only worse. Every time Doran Martell enacts a revenge plot, one of his beloved family members dies. He is killing his family to get revenge for his family. All of his plots fail miserably. Ellaria even outright says the theme of this story in a speech. And yet, somehow there's people in the fandom who think Doran Martell is a genius whose master plan will win the day and is already crushing the Lannisters.
Some people don't pick up on the theme that revenge is bad. It's blatant with Doran and his blood oranges.
NAILED IT!
Also Doran waited way too long to make each move, when made all the plans failed and wasted opportunity…represented by the ripen oranges and his gout that gets worsen thanks to his lack of movement.
Which is ironic because Doran is in the same situation as the man George RR Martin himself.
I agree with most points in the video.
Except for stuff about marriage not equating to slavery though. I agree that it’s not a fair 1-to-1 comparison. But, well… it seems like kind of a gray area at times.
Sure, slavery and marriage in Westeros aren’t quite the same thing: But it’s VERY hard to take that argument seriously when the situations you cite to claim it’s NOT slavery are *Lysa, and Cersei .*
Because-besides for Lady Hornwood and Fake!Arya-I couldn’t think of worse examples you could’ve chosen to exemplify the point. (And yes: Lady Hornwood and Fake Arya are both situations you have to contend with if you want to make definite statements about the institution of marriage and slavery having no relation in Westeros. Because both marriage are considered perfectly legal by Westeros’s laws).
Cersei makes the comparison of herself being treated and sold like a brood mare countless times. So when Cersei talks about “Marcella being sold to the Dornish like a sack of oats,” I believe that this is GENUINELY her perspective on the matter. It’s her assessment of the situation based upon her own experience.
Just because these arranged marriages are considered “normal” by Westeros’s standards, does not mean that they don’t resemble slavery in someways. Much in the same way that *serfdom* is a normal institution of Westeros: Because I don’t think that it would be controversial to say that GRRM is drawing parallels between the Serfdom of Westeros and the naked chattel slavery practiced in Essos. I think that in both these cases GRRM is trying to get readers to think critically about these institutions (arranged marriage and serfdom) which a lot of fantasy takes for granted.
As you said yourself, forced marriages in Westeros and slavery aren't quite the same thing. That is my point. Lysa and Cersei were treated poorly by their fathers but they were not literal slaves. Lysa admitted she had a choice: marry Jon Arryn or her father would turn her out like he did the Blackfish. Cersei said she was queen regent, not a broodmare. Cersei folded in the face of her father but she did have the power to defy him. Something slaves do not have. This is the nuance I touch on in the video. This is the gray area you mention. I think we agree more than we disagree.
And you're right: serfdom and slavery are very similar. Tyrion mentions this in Book Five. Which is very interesting since Dany wants to stand against slavery but she also wants to be a queen. Dany thinks in Book Two: I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father. But before she could do that she must conquer.
Conquering means the people have no choice but to be her subjects. She views herself as a liberator but her ultimate goal is to be an oppressor.
The humor sprinkled in this one was pretty good. Thank you again. Looking forward to the Dany vid re:nuance.
Theon is the unsung hero of the show because if we look closely, we will realize that
- The first sign of show going downhill was a scene in season 4 when Yara/ Asha abandoned Theon to die because she’s afraid of a shirtless Ramsay. That scene was meant to demonize Theon as some kind of coward but right now, people look back at this scene as the assassination of Asha’s character by accident.
- The only person whose character arc is intact in season 8 is Theon. For a guy who has no dick and a few fingers, his arc ended beautifully in contrast to everyone else whose arcs got assassinated left, right and center.
It took a character being beaten down into nothingness and complete plot irrelevance for their story to not be butchered by the writers.
I mean I personally cackled when he just ran at the Night's King with a spear. He literally died for nothing, Arya showed up not 30 seconds later. And no, nothing proves that Theon's "sacrifice" gave her time she needed. Since it was shock value we didn't even know where she was and Bran was not in immediate danger when Theon ran up. They were walking slow as hell, not doing anything.
5:45 this is different in the book as Drogo uses coercion rather than physical force against her. It's not nice, but Dany is more "willing" to participate in the consummation of the marriage. The relationship in the books is more "consensual" compared to the show.
Honestly, the coercion is coming more from Dany’s brother than from Drogo. Drogo’s choice to allow Dany agency on their wedding night is very significant in what it represents, and how their relationship progresses because of it.
@@bluecat1462 He is the one that betrothed them too.
Dany stans hate Sansa but also want Dany to be the girl getting beaten for doing nothing… aka they want her to have Sansa’s story
The two characters have not met in the books. Dany doesn't know Sansa exists and vice versa. I don't get how there is a rivalry between their fans.
@ I think it’s cause of Jon and who he’ll end up with.
@@marinawilson3337 too bad for Dany Jon canonically prefers redheads (I have no stake in either camp, and technically Jon is probably just going to stay dead forever rather than us find out anything about anything)
19:44 God, I hope this video includes you getting into Theon with Ramsey instead of Ned, cuz going through all those things one by one is killing me
Edit: Oh, good! Just had to be more patient lol.
Thank you for sticking with the video lol
Copium is my breed and butter because Littefinger is my favourite character. He is the true hero of the story.
1:41 BASED NGL
I would not call what drogho and dany have love. I am on Hills alive side. But also agree on something she gained affection for because he encouraged her beside all this
I guess I don't get why fans still claim this when GRRM has always confirmed they are a love story. Like I get why it feels gross for the show with how they changed the wedding night, but books wise it's very clear they both love each other immensely lol
@@Elliot226 A 13 and 36 year old can't be in love. Idk where/if GRRM confirmed that, but this is an area where his and anyone else's opinion means very little to me.
@@yetz2291 They aren't real people though. Obviously you're right in real life, but these are fictional characters that are telling a story. Should GRRM have aged Dany up from the outset? Yeah, at least 16 would have been easier to digest. But that's a him issue, like many people (including Kevin) mention. They are not real people, GRRM decides their feelings and he has chosen theirs IS a love story.
@@Elliot226I think it’s also a case where multiple things to be true at the same time. Maybe we need to challenge our own ideas about what we label a Love-Story “ought” to be. Because many people do feel genuine feelings of love, even if it’s sometimes experienced in relationships that are bad or unhealthy.
@Elliot226 Some people don't believe age gaps are acceptable even in fiction. And that's perfectly fine. Some people in this fandom reject Lyanna and Rhaegar because she was 16 and he was 20+ and a prince. They believe she was a child and there was a huge power imbalance so there's no way she could consent.
The problem is when such people participate in the discourse.
Because ASOIAF is medieval fantasy fiction. Though it's not confirmed yet, it's likely going to be revealed Lyanna and Rhaegar was a tragic romance. Was there an age gap and a imbalance of power? Sure. But that's kinda how this world works. When people jump into the discourse to say they don't think certain romances are morally acceptable, even in fiction, I just wonder why are they here? Why they reading these books?
It's oddly comforting to know you didnt do well in French class, I also did bad in French, I basically only know omletu fromage from Dexter lol
Also the "its not a crime yet" bit had me busting up XD
First time I took French, I failed because I was too busy staring at a boy and not the board
Second time I took it... 9/11 😭
@@KevinPendragon A tale as old as time...
@@KevinPendragon Relatable content, I was also distracted by a crush in my french class XD
That and magic the gathering and music, there was like an older hooligan nerd who was always tryin to get me to smoke weed and we'd talk a lot in class too lol
That part of Dexter has no right to be permanently installed in my brain.
@@KevinPendragoncan I quote this somewhere? It feels quotable
Historical sex slaves could wear very fine clothes depending on who owned them
Very true. A person can be dressed in the finest clothes and eat the finest foods and still be a slave.
However, I am firmly against the idea that Daenerys was an actual litetal sex slave. That just doesn't seem to be the intent. It contradicts her story in many ways
For example: if she was a literal slave, why did she go to Slaver’s Bay to buy slaves?
@ I think your video raised a lot of good points, and I think it’s overall really correct, but in my limited opinion I think the truth about her is she is somewhere in between a slave and any other free female character in the book when she married.
I think you’re right about the Stockholm syndrome not working for her or other characters, but the reason she is unique when compared to Theon or Sansa for example in my opinion is because she is different from them in that she never had a “home base” of legitimacy like they do. Neither Theon nor Sansa are seen as pretenders, they have bad things happen and very complicated identities but they have some kind of recognizable identity in their mind they can think about and make their way back to in the right conditions someday, at least emotionally. They have a ground floor of knowing if they’re being treated well or badly when they first enter into in their abusive relationships (Theon/Ramsey and Sansa/Littlefinger). I feel like Dany is different than them because she doesn’t start out as anything but someone viewed as a pretender and on the run. The reason she is given to a Khal is because she doesn’t have the legitimacy to make a marriage with another noble family, so she is being given in marriage to a war lord by a brother who touches her sexually in the books and by a much older man. I think this makes it more likely for her to be wowed by the Khal having even minimally decent treatment of her, and I think she sees him through an abused child’s eyes that finally saw someone nice to her. So her devotion is real to him and comparably reasonable, but it’s not how she would act or perceive him if she was a regular Westerosi noblewoman instead of a beaten down, disinherited waif.
Thank You ! I'll watch this tomorrow on my way to work ;)
Have a safe commute
I 100% agree that the bit about Illyio selling out friends is probably meant as a figure of speech. But like... considering that Illyrio’s own connections to the slave trade is an open secret, I just realized, it might *not be.* 😮‼️
I see the fued continues. LOL Always love your analysis.
This video isn't directed toward any one person but yes it is full of shade. And thank you lol
Love your videos, and usually think you have good takes, however, I'm sorry, but just because Dany is Drogo's wife, doesn't mean she isn't his captive or prisoner? yes there are many others in that situation, but does that change their individual situations? if somebody else decided they had to be in that marriage and they didn't have a say in it, they are basically a prisoner. If Lysa Tully was married off without her choice, she was indeed human property. It doesn't really matter if they are exchanged for literal money or goods or for something like an army or secrets.
And on Dany's consent.. James Hibberd said it was consensual in the books, and from the quote you used, GRRM didn't challenge that, but he said it hadn't been discussed and was worse. Are we saying that children can consent? does she really have a choice? what would happen to her if she refused? we know that the Dothraki r*pe, so there's no reason to assume that if she didn't go along with it, that wouldn't have happened.
Daenerys is a fictional character in a grimdark medieval fantasy story. The creator of this story established that yes, she could consent to her encounter with Drogo. This isn't my personal opinion. It's from Martin. I knew I would probably get a comment like this and that is why I stress in the video this is from Martin. Even Emilia Clarke said go to him if you want answers about choices he has made.
As for Lysa Arryn: my point is that she was not a slave. Just because goods or gold is exchanged during a marriage, doesnt make someone a slave. Thats what I mean by human proprerty.
One thing I argue against in my video is the literal interpretation of events. Yes, Lysa was locked in a loveless marriage but was she a literal prisoner? Yes, Dany was married off to a slaver but was she a literal slave? Because I am always shocked and by the lack of nuance in this fandom.
How is Lysa prisoner when she had a choice? "I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother". Prisoners have no choice.
These characters (both male and female) are often treated as pawns or property but to say "slave" or "prisoner"... that lacks something. It doesn't tell the full story.
As for what Drogo would have done if Dany said no, he would have done nothing. That's why he asked her. The problem is he takes the one yes to mean yes forever
@@KevinPendragon Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden tore emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs.
“Now you look all a princess,” the girl said breathlessly when they were done. Dany glanced at her image in the silvered looking glass that Illyrio had so thoughtfully provided. A princess, she thought, but she remembered what the girl had said, how Khal Drogo was so rich even his slaves wore golden collars. She felt a sudden chill, and gooseflesh pimpled her bare arms.-Dany’s 3 AGOT
People always talk about that first Dany scene with Drogo but never bring up the other times were Drogo would rape her during the night to the point were she wanted to off herself. She may not have Stockholm syndrome but her situation was not ideal like a lot of women in ASOIAF. Is Jane Poole is technically the defector lady of Winterfell and the Dreadful but that doesn’t change the fact that she is a sex slave
Same with Lysa Arryn just because Jon Arryn treated her well or whatever doesn’t change the fact that she was married to an old man against her wishes and saying that in Westoros it is seen as ok does not make it ok
@@KevinPendragon she might be fictional, that doesn't change the fact she's still a child. medieval fantasy or no, that doesn't change the fact it's CA
if she didn't consent to the marriage in the first place, is she "consenting" to the sex or is she making the most of a bad situation?
you're saying "it's from Martin" but in the source you gave, it's not even him actually saying that. i don't know what other sources you're talking from. and i'm not even denying that Dany *thinks* she consented, but plenty of underage people sadly think they are having a consensual relationship that's fine and okay but in reality they are being abused by an elder.
you're even saying that Drogo serially r*pes her from this point on but somehow you think it would have mattered to him at all if she said no the first time?
i didn't at any point disagree with you the word slave isn't the correct one. but you seem to be so focused on the use of that one word that it's blinding you from the bigger picture?
"I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother"
where is the choice in that? that quote is her explaining why she felt she didn't have a choice. what life would she have had if she chose to be "turned out"? instead, she is trapped in a marriage trying to pop out babies and ruining herself doing so.
isn't this like, one of the main themes of HotD s1?
i think many women (or men) in situations like this, real or fictional, would describe themselves as feeling like a slave or a prisoner (still not saying they literally are, although i think that's on a case by case basis). i can't understand why you're taking so much issue with that.
i don't see where Dany had a choice in any of this. what would you have her do? (:P) she'd likely suffer the same, if not worse if she tried to escape. it's true she's forced into that situation because of her Targaryen identity, but she doesn't have any handsome Crispo's offering to run away and eat oranges with her (yet).
@@KevinPendragon George is a certified pedophile
@@lonemotheo1964 What "people" do is pretty irrelevant when you're responding to one person about what they said over the course of an hour and a half. Did you watch the video where he explicitly brings up the things you said "people" ignore? Have you ears to hear the things he's saying that directly address what you've said after the fact? You're not engaging with the material to which you're replying, you're just reiterating your stance.
IT'S HERE!!!! Very very excited for this one
I find it pretty funny the fandom wants to focus on the non-SS relationships these characters have vs the ones that actually fit better (Theon/Ramsay and Dany/Viserys - not that those are necessarily true either, but they definitely fit more and are immediately apparent)
I've been researching and working on this for over a year. It's good to finally be done with it. Please enjoy!
wow what an amazing video
Thank you for another great video Kevin.
Do you have any ideas about the Thenns? It seems like theyre fleshed out to a point where it seems like we will visit Thenn in winds. .. somehow.
I wish we knew more about them. I just went to the wiki and there's barely anything. Do we even know how old Sigorn is?
Using the Theon and Ramsey's dynamic would be apt as well.
Very true
Fixed the spelling error in the title 😭
7:57 There were emergency services outside the building and the antidotes were ready. But this was the first time that doctors were faced with the horror and confusion of a real anti-terrorist operation, so tragic mistakes were made. One hundred and thirty people died, but seven hundred and eighty-two were saved.
I really like your videos, but, please, next time don't use a national tragedy as a punch line for a joke.
Sorry for mistakes, English is my second language. I'm actually practicing by watching ASOIAF videos
I really wanted this video
Hope you enjoyed! I've been working in this since 2023
I feel like another one thing that debunks Belle has Stockholm Syndrome is. She left wasn’t isolated she had the servants. She was talking to them
Do you think Phoenix Ashes will respond to the Dany part?
Phoenix Ashes? You mean the asoiaf youtuber that said they hated George, hated the fandom, and used an alias to harass women and tell people to k!ll themselves on Tumblr? The person I exposed in a video on Unreliable Narrators that can be found on my second channel, @MadKingKevin?
It would be best if they kept quiet
@ bloody hell an almost 3 hour long video? I’m in for a long treat it seems
Tyrion will pull the veil away from Danys eyes regarding her stockholm syndrome
How so?
@KevinPendragon She has Stockholm syndrome with regards to Illyrio who sold her into the Khalasar, her brother who beat her. Tyrion knows about Aegon and has kept his mouth shut for once.
(Tywin says - “You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing.”).
He'll tell Dany about Illyrios other scheme and play them against each other... he has to paint a worse picture of them then the one she has of the Lannisters to save him from getting executed.
And he has a habit of throwing truth in people's faces... just look at how he mocked Jorah on the Stinky Steward.
@@CheeseCrumbs00this utter nonsense. You could only believe this if you think the words by which you describe your ideas have no actual meaning.
@@hillbillypowpow this is utter nonsense. You could only believe this if you think the words by which you describe your ideas have no actual meaning.
@@CheeseCrumbs00 No...just no
La Belle (The Beauty) et La Bete (The Beast)
🗣🗣🗣🗣hill's alive mention🗣🗣🗣🗣
When?
Dude, Stockholm is not even in Westeros
For me personally I always find villains more interesting than the hero. I just think Danny is kinda boring same way Superman is boring
1:05:18 - I'm sorry, are you implying Amber Heard was telling the truth and Depp was the one lying?
You don't have to be sorry
@KevinPendragon ...ok? Do you just don't want to answer my question? I wasn't looking to debate just to make sure I interpreted the statement correct. No need to act smug
@@murillodaniel9208 That you would completely ignore the utter mountain of evidence that indicates Depp was abusive as well only serves to prove Kevin's point about the vilification of women and the need to paint one party in a good light and the other in bad, regardless of the circumstances. You've done the opposite of what you set out to do.
@@hillbillypowpow literally what are you yapping about? I asked if thats what he said, not what I believed or what was the proof, since that was thr only interpretation I had that made sense based on what he said.
Not a fan of musicals either. Very minority opinion. [Also, Oswald acted alone.] Ty so much for the content. Musicals don't have to be for everyone.
1:05:07 dude amber heard was the abuser
It's incredibly clear that they were both abusive
you're more of a robot than an actual robot - this is painful to listen to
Bad take.
Compared to a robot AGAIN 🤖 😭