Great conversation guys. You guys don’t see 100% eye to eye but were able to have a very constructive conversation that stayed on topic and is very resourceful. Great episode.
Nope. It’s the commercials and the marketing that for the last 20 years has completely missed the point of lighter and more durable carbon arrows being a better starting point for a more efficient arrow that has the weight in the tip. Not the tail and through out the whole arrow. Aluminum were easily bent and become wobbly in flight, and seem to be heavy from front to back. Where as a carbon arrow is opposite. The marketing ppl did everyone a disservice letting ppl believe in their own fantasies that faster as a laser beam can somehow replace the energy a heavier arrow. It’s simply not accurate.
@@HotepSaoirse yeah well I was talking to you. You and the other hundred ppl commenting and even making 40 min videos giving their grandiose opinions based on NOthing. The problem is that most people are dumb and they don’t listen, and refuse to think, and refuse to acknowledge they don’t know everything. Nor are they open to criticism or change, nor are they interested in being the best they can be. Half ass is good enough. The only people who even attempt to argue with this guy are the ppl who are dumb and incapable of listening or thinking. It’s ok to be ignorant on a subject but when someone guards their ignorance…it becomes stupidity
@@TheArrowBuilder The reason why are say this is that Dud went on to say that he had never watched the RF channel or barley new anything about him, also RF firstly told dud his long history with bow hunting, then it seemed dud tried to school him and treat him as a beginner. I know dude is very knowledgeable but some of his comments were a little harsh.
@@sgtcaco I struggle to find the right analogy - but imagine a professional engine builder who's been doing it for 35 years. Some random guy comes along on TH-cam, gains a following by essentially talking smack and saying nearly every engine builder in the country has been doing it all wrong including the manufacturers like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GMC, Toyota, etc. Then starts telling that guy that he's got it all wrong and in order to get the best results you need to do XYZ when you know that there are tradeoffs and there's no free ride. The reality is like engine building - you're making tradeoffs and the V8 you build for a drag car is completely different than the V8 you'd do for a tractor pull. Engine builders know that, just like people who build hunting arrows know that. Troy is like saying everyone should build a low end torque V8 and there's no downsides at the track. The entire archery industry has been putting stuff to test for decades, it's not some conspiracy. Range forgiveness and time in flight are REAL things. It's not make believe where you can hand wave it away. It matters and you're personal hunting conditions dictate what is best. IE are you on the track, towing or do you just need something that is good all around. This isn't to say you should shoot a underspined, low FOC, 350 spine arrow with a poor quality broadhead. That's like the Geo Metro of hunting setups. If you're looking for an all around arrow go 410 grains minimum with a 295 fps maximum for fixed blades, shoot a properly to stiff spined arrow, decent FOC, quality components and sharp great flying & durable broadheads. All of which can be done without breaking the bank.
@@TheArrowBuilder well did feels threatened then? He does the same thing, he shoots elk with a 550gn that is a heavy arrow, if dud shot buffalo he would probably use 650gn. I love both of these guys and they both make sense to me. I think it’s just dud feeling vulnerability from a marketing and archery political side of things. Even though your analogy dips cool, it’s not that deep.
Guys, arrow weight is like near the bottom of the list in Ashby's study, yet we all fight about that. It's not a factor unless you hit heavy bone. Find your sweet spot and do you.
What I am hearing about spine alignment is exactly what I have experienced as well. I find that looking down the inside of the shaft and finding the seam is not only easier and cheaper, but a better way to find a start point. Since I have started doing this, I have found that I only need one adjustment or less to nock tune my arrows.
Awesome conversation guys. I went into the holea couple years ago. I have a old Mathews Q2 , she loves the serious apalo,250 standard insert and sleeve with the ranch ferry 200 up front. Dart.. And much quieter. She's a killer
I hope they publish the arrow speeds. Draw weight doesn't really matter because bows of different poundages can shoot the same weight arrow different speeds.
Draw length makes your powerstroke significantly different which translates to fps and higher momentum with a good amount of weight. After going down this rabbithole ive settled on 500grn. Gives me the best of all worlds. @30.5" draw i get the most out of my bow so don't need the 6-700gn arrow. My favorite is a small fixed 1-1/4" 3 blade. 150gn.
Based on my own experimentation from a 400 grain arrow at 55lbs and a short 400 spine now going up to a 500 grain Easton Axis which includes a brass insert, Easton collar, and a 100 grain head, I can see the penetration difference and hear the impact. It has also quieted the bow. I upped my poundage from 55 to 60 and these arrows are hitting like a truck. I may be a little slower but I will take that as a plan B option. I’m just disappointed I did not draw this year for deer in CO.
I wouldn't describe this as that heavy of a setup. You did increase the draw weight to minimize the difference in velocity. Personally, I'd recommend a little lighter 204 GPI shaft than the Axis. Which you could then have a tad bit more FOC and a little lower weight. For no real sacrifice in penetration and a small increase in velocity. A 450-475 grain arrow would be great for you're setup to split the difference.
How is it you can get Troy to stay on subject ? lol I’ve lowered my weight on the arrow too , I’ve watched mfjj and Troy for years , like them both , my set up now is 60 pound Kure , 29 1/2 inch draw ,500 grain arrow . Shooting the 150 magnus broad heads ( not single bevel ) with 50 grain brass insert , I’m shooting 300 spine arrows because it’s what I had but the 350’s shoot good to, I’m 66 years old shot a recurve for years, don’t plan on ever shooting over 60 yards , I think razor sharp, good broad heads and arrow flight are the most important thing in killing stuff , both Troy and mfjj do agree on this point .. thank for the podcast .
I think one of the biggest issues with the Archery community is that with social media and the internet a lot of people have opinions based on knowledge they didn’t earn. They just consumed it and regurgitated it. The other hindrance is that anyone can criticize without credentials. There’s no need to rally in to camps or tribes. You, yes you. Go shoot your bow and come up with your own conclusions. Listen and consume but don’t assume you know what you’re talking about until you try it.
@@Kevanroskam I think almost everyone agrees that foc is the important distinction the grater you can get that while still maintaining a light arrow and good flight is where heavy and light guys agree. So I don't think you gain benefit from upping the arrow weight to much. But a good brass insert and the beast upping the tip weight of the arrow would be a good test
I think that shimming the cams, changes the relationship of the arrow to the center of the riser. Similar to moving the rest. Shimming the cams also changes cam lean.
Got a question.. I’m kinda old .. we have some sizable hogs here in south Mississippi.. I’m not a fan of high FOC. I’m from the 90s 3-D world where we shot 6.8% FOC for flat trajectory. (Judging yardage) that was the limit for 12 ring accuracy at 45 yards. Go to 6.6 FOC and you had tennis ball accuracy at 45.. that being said, I used weight tubes from 3-Rivers in my 340 spine arrows .. 3gr per inch, my arrows are 29”. That’s 84 grains . I also used a woodsmen head at 150gr. Machined 3 blade with an inch cut. That was 134 grains heavier than my standard set up. That put me at around 554gr. My thought is that mass is mass. You can increase spine and with with heavy inserts, outserts, heads etc and achieve the same weight. Difference is FOC. Math says they are the same momentum and KE.. my setup shoots much flatter at the same weight. Because of FOC. So we can achieve a heavy arrow with say a 9%FOC .plenty of accuracy but with a flatter trajectory.. I’d be interested in y’all’s input on that logic. I know the results I’ve probably harvested more animals than each of y’all. I’ve seen first hand many instances. I do tune bows, build arrows, all the above. Have been since the early 90s. Wonderful content and thanks for the conversation with RF..
I’ve theorized that FOC doesn’t matter for impact but adding the weight upfront requires a stiffer shaft. Stiffer shaft= less shaft flapping as it enters the animal. Overtime I think what I’ve learned is that lots of stuff works. And pretty much everything works if you shoot him right in the ribs broadside!
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I completely agree with this. I tend to go one spine stiff for builds and use point weight to weaken it a hair. I also think that a mechanical greatly benefits from a stiff shaft.
I agree, the major manufactures bows get to the shop pretty squared up and won't need much to tune. The issues arise when the shop needs to change out parts (modules) to get the bow to fit you at the poundage you want. Then the shop, or you, may need to adjust cam timing and synchronize the cams.
@KirkBonds too bed you're not smart enough to realize it works really well. Guys like the hunting public and others who fought Troy are happy with the results of heavier arrows.
I can’t get the guys saying it’s wasted energy when the arrow hits the dirt behind the animal. It is energy for when things go wrong but it ain’t a bullet. Obviously arrows use energy to penetrate so they cut as much as possible. Bullets use energy to penetrate and disrupt organs and other tissue. Since we only need penetration from arrow energy, heck yes blow clean through them, 2 holes are better than 1. Don’t think I need to say that but there ya go.
Troy doesn’t give a f if you agree or don’t. Shoot what you want. There’s no reason to make stupid childish comments but hey it helps Brandon with the algorithm so whatever
A lot of the time when learning to and say you do go to the shop and you ask him to do something you want to watch what they're doing turn around fiddle around for a couple seconds and bring it back out to you and say it's good you know and usually if you got like a severe tear out the top let's say the knock is going out the top that means your top cam is picking up faster and the other way if it's at the bottom it means your bottom cams picking up faster
Brandon just said something that a lot of people might not have heard but to do bare shaft tune you better make sure your grip is good your stance your form and your release because I tell you right now if you're slapping the hell out of the trigger it's going to be really hard for you to Bear Chef too
You guys need to understand that you can set a bow to “zero” and rarely will it shoot a bullet hole without making adjustments, so was it really “zeroed” then You will have to make additional adjustments to shoot a fixed blade head accurately, so there goes your bullet hole. Which one do you think is a better representation of zeroing. I myself believe the fixed blade head is because everyone shoots differently and yes the bullet hole saves you time when making minor adjustments for the broadhead but when you’re done they both go too the same point of impact! Field tips what show you correct spine like a broadhead will.
John Dudley is shooting 75# with a 530 grain arrow and a 30.5" draw. So when you're bringing that kind of power you can use almost anything you want on the front
@@sgtcaco I'd call that a normal arrow. Heavy is relative to the archer, 530 grains for a 27.5" archer at 60# would be on the heavy side. For Dud at that length you need a stiffer shaft which generally is heavier and a longer arrow. To get the FOC decent you need a heavier insert. His mass is just a byproduct of his length, some FOC and enough fletching. If you are 28" then a normal arrow setup would be like 440. Everything is relative.
arrows spin regardless if there is a broadhead or fletchings test a bareshaft and field point almost all strings will cause a left rotation with a few brands causing a right rotation
I just feel like when you get an arrow that light and you're trying to push it that hard instead of it being drugged through the air it's being pushed really hard from the ass in and it's just so finicky I tell you now I always shot a heavy arrow and never do it and never even really knew that you know what I mean
Sorry gentleman, I have been shooting 2 months and I am ready to hunt, I have already hadn3 robinhoods, my ground a 30m are super tight, bare shafting is no problem, already made my first hunting arrows, I’m pumped and ready for the hunt.
I really think the people you are talking about that gets the 600 spine arrow really think that 600 means grains because they don't know any better I've heard people say I'm shooting 400 gr. and you look at there arrow and it's 400 spine that's my thinking on it and I really wish that the industry would redo there charts because they are really out of date
@@sgtcaco then I'm not talking about you I'm talking about people that don't know and some of them was older men that was just getting into hunting within the past few years
If you hit above the lung and it didn't drop, you shot back strap meat rt under the skin and that's all ...there is ZERO space between top of lung and spine
Groups aren’t the only thing that matters. You can still get pretty consistent groups with an out of tune bow. Chris Bee said in an interview once that sometimes out of tune was better for target archery
If a man shots a 400 grain head connected to a 400 spine arrow out of a 70 pound bow, would the arrow not fold in half immediately upon firing? All the weight in the front and the force in the back. You’re saying it will fold like a banana on target?
Dude Brandon be careful with them whitetail specials. Used em for 2 seasons, started losing deer. First year was great second year I realized how dull the blades were after I lost 2 deer
You know a lot of Target archers will tune their bare shaft with the rip in the paper a lot of guys feel like it feels the same exact Arrow every time and then if they do a bullet hole they feel like it's not as forgiving I've heard this several times this is target archery
Do you know how long Josh has been practicing the art of shooting like that though he has went through several several intense situations to get himself there where he's at and I guarantee it it was a heavy ass Arrow really high pound each bow
For as much time as they have spent working with bows and making content centered around archery, it is wild to me to hear a statement that you can't shoot a 400 grain arrow with an 80 lb bow or that it is difficult to get good arrow flight. That simply isn't true. It's just basic tuning like you would with any other setup.
@@BlackwaterBounddepends on a lot of things. I shoot 80lbs at 31”. It would be hard for me to make a 400 grain arrow with the length. It’s impossible to tune thst light of an arrow in my bow.
@brandonmcdonald6121 my bow is shooting shaft tail low left threw paper. I've backed down my shot to 25yrds but still see a sideways arrow in flight. I'm still scratching my head. I have 200 to 350 spine arrows and they all fly the same.
The problem I have with testing on animals is that no two shots are ever identical. How can you truly compare penetration between two different arrow setups when the target medium is never the same?
Through 30 years of data collection, from shooting only on animals. Oh, by the way... that's EXACTLY what the Natal Study is. 631 animals, with 119 data points for every shot on every animal. Then you analyze the trends.
@@stick__shooteryeh is a flawed medium stuck on old methods bows are now so accurate and efficient and mechanicals are improving so rapidly. You loose benifit of something if you tilt to far one way with your set up. Pretty simple build your set up to suit your ability there is a reason anyone that can shoot doesn't go overly heavy.
@stick__shooter this is the problem. I am sorry, but you are incorrect. Compound bows were also used in the Natal Study. Feel free to audit this info. All of it is available on the Ashby Bowhunting site. And the testing actually continues. Rob Nielson (the current president of the foundation) uses an 82lb compound. They've also tested crossbows. Again, all of this info is found pretty easily online. Still adding information. Testing broadheads, including sevr heads, rages, and all the popular mechanicals. That's the entire point of a study. To learn and know why. The study isn't over because new stuff comes out. You test it, and publish results. That's why I don't understand why people have so much animosity towards the foundation. It's like everyone assumes because Doc preferred an 84lb longbow named "Lady" for hunting, that was all he used. They also are under the assumption that they claim you can't kill animals sub 650gr. 650 is overkill on an elk... until you reach humorous ball or other heavy bone. Then mass above the "heavy bone threshold" is nice to have. Suffice it to say, as apparent in these comments, people would rather believe marketing hype than to actually read information.
@@PersonalBestOutdoors he stopped using the compound in the original. Study because it kept passing through so he couldn't measure penetration. I've seen the study and it has plenty of merit when it comes to low energy setups, but modern compounds are a whole different ballpark. I'm not a pusher of super fast, light setups. I'm a middle of the road guy. 425-500 launching around 260-290 will work well on anything in North America and still have good trajectory. I was a Fairy follower several years ago and for me the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
After going up to 455 grains and 14% foc, I will never go back down. With fixed I never had a penetration problem with only 400 grains and 9% foc. The problem was when I tried that with mechanicals. I had major problems. The contrast between the two setup was night and day. Dudley and Troy have tremendously helped me in archery. I wish Dudley wasn't such an ego driven prick.
Ego driven prick? He is a phenomenal archer, and has an incredible amount of knowledge, talent, and experience. Why do you think he's an ego driven prick?
Agreed Dudley is a little condescending but he's got gravitas. The guy is a true technician with serious shooting chops. I think some of these guys like MFJJ and Dudley and others who are real equipment experts and great shooters (actually don't know if MFJJ is a great shooter) get annoyed/frustrated with people who don't have their knowledge and experience.
@@toddzoro9831 I came across with the same impression. It takes a lot of patience for someone who's ran a shop for many many years or shot competitively to sit down and listen to someone who may know quite a bit about one thing, but very little about rest. Most shop owners who deal with a wide variety of customers generally have very similar advice. I just don't buy that it's some conspiracy that only the few can see the benefits. Maybe there's real reasons that people stopped shooting these setups.
The more I rewatch these videos the more I feel the Ashby's study is missing so much by using such large game as the "standard". Bone density, size of body, distance.
people think top cam is advanced from the factory, 2 reason its ment to be so it settles to equal once shot 100 times, also people dont center the rest abd dloop the the bottom off the shart to the center off the rest hole. get an archery shop to do it, iff you want to keep paying them to never fix it
tournament archers never shoot bows in spec, they lose when they do. left tear for some perfect. broadhead tune ignore the paper tears afterwards cause they were false to begin with
So I had the PSC and still have the Evo sc34 and the PSC told me to start it at 7 8 off of the riser a complete 16th or whatever over 3/4 that's way outside what I come to find out is they had the wrong limbs on the wrong side of the bowl it's supposed to be like a mix match and you work from the top right lightest to heaviest clockwise so your light is Slim will be at the top right your heavy is limb will be at the top left I had so much trouble with that boat trying to get it to shoot broadheads now I have the new BowTech it's the 34 that like dark gray color and it is a rocket I love it is the most amazing feeling bow and arrow I have ever shot and I have a lot I have the big 38 target bow all set up with the whistles and buttons you know I I really love archery I got my own string making jigs I got my own boat press Vise I got everything you could think of you know that is a Archer's paradise and I have shot a lot of bow and arrow and it is the most forgiving most amazing draw cycle when it comes to the holding weight you can play with that
I never watched this channel, or RF’s, or Dudley’s until this week. I stumbled on the 3 way and thought Dud was a douche, but not as bad as everyone else made it seem. Regardless, I will now listen to some from all, because there is no ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT. I think there are nuggets to take away from each. Keep it up. And RF, I used my friend google and have no idea where you are selling anything - I keep hearing “we sell” “we help” and have no idea the platform you are doing this on. May want to spend some time on the marketing…
1/8 inch rest adjustment is fine, iff your beyond that, get shooting lessons, mathews and usual hoyt hace center accurate on their bows. flipping shims you will need to move them back eventually, its a last resort so move your rest. center the bottom off the arrow with the center off the rest bolt, that fixes most issues instantly, 13/16 from the epsilon housing, and the qad no need to shim, too much wrong things to do for a simple issues. you set the bow rest up wrong fix it not shim
I wish you could have talked more about using a mechanical on a higher FOC, mid weight arrow. I’m in the same boat as you Brandon. Lost two deer last year because of minimal blood trail in super thick honeysuckle with a heavy single bevel setup. This year I’m trying out the G5 Deadmeat with 530 grain total arrow weight. I’m hoping the 3 blade will result in a better blood trail and better arrow flight for more penetration. Time will tell I guess.
I know a sponsored shooter who can't shut up about heavy arrows with mechanicals. Crazy guys who can shoot a deer in a 15-20mph wind at over 100 yards, and they run as heavy as possible that still gets the range.
So I like a super light Arrow you're going to have to really pay attention to everything which way the string is served the not fit the Nock pinch every single little thing in my point of view I feel like a heavier arrow is just more forgiving
This is true. I think there is a point of diminishing returns though. Anything around 280 fps is pretty easy to tune if you're form is decent. I have zero issues at 294 fps and haven't for 10 years. If you're trying to shoot over 300 fps it's a lot more touchy - especially with fixed heads. Forget shooting a solid head at that speed IMHO. Everything is a tradeoff.
bows are set for above 80% off the people who shoot bows, difference is hand torque, get archery lessons, if you broken bones in your hand, you many need to move shims.
Perfect example right here I had a deer come in on my far left what kind of quartering to me a little bit I was shooting double bevel Broadhead right so I'm thinking I'm just going to put it right on the shoulder and let it eat okay but this was a double bevel I couldn't have done this with the mechanical there's no way in hell I would have just found stuff it hit the shoulder big phone right there for the all about the knuckle on the chest so I hit a little high but I was in an elevated tree stand I should have aimed a little lower but the Broadhead road to the left okay it was super sharp so it rolled toward his chest so not going towards the vitals going the opposite way like literally going to miss him but it may contact with that shoulder and shots straight across his brisket never went inside the animal okay but exploded the shoulder cut everything it touched because it was razor sharp he walked over about 20 yards laid down and bled out simple fact was I exploded that shoulder but that didn't help me what helped me was the fact that the arrow kept going and it was razor sharp and cut everything in its path every big artery and vein that was in that shoulder he just lost every bit of blood within a couple minutes
The answer is to that question is not so cut and dry. The lower your poundage/draw the more the mass/foc are the leading factors in penetration because you dont have the high impact velocity flexing the shaft as much. On the other end of the spectrum, if your high# and long draw, having an extremely stiff shaft is almost as important as foc. I'm near the top of the spectrum 83#/30.5" 755gr-810gr, 200spine 'currently' When I was working my way up on mass, I was using heavy inserts to gain foc and bouncing between Amazon's cheapest singlebevels and 300gr kodiaks, vpa, abowyer etc. (tuned&sighted for heavy to use on XL hogs). I started with 250spine/180gr SS outsert uncut, and had some wierd experiences with the lighter SB heads on moderately sized hogs (100-160lb'ers) where a couple stopped in them, but once I moved up to a 200 spine shaft the lighter heads started blowing through almost as good as the heavier heads. It also needs to be said that I aim to hit the top of the heart(very foward inbetween the shoulders) regardless of angle, and I'll take any angle given. The importance of foc cannot be overstated, but the importance of shaft stiffness to help keep that momentum in line is a huge factor as well imo
@@Bartimusblue27 yeah, I tested a heavy FOC arrow and a heavier arrow with lower FOC and the latter penetrated better. I think because the added mass made the shaft stiffer.
On impact, the flex of the shaft will cost some energy but it's mostly dependent on the harness and mass of the target. A stiffer arrow AND a heavier arrow will both benefit, but a heavier projectile should benefit more than simply a stiffer spine. Above the buckling strength of the shaft, more stiffness doesn't provide significant returns.
people are getting weaker, hard to buy 60 65ln bows, 70 80lb are always in stock. tests should be done with 55 60lb bows to cover the broadest range of shooters
when an arrow stops, it tells it faled, if it passes through it’s obviously it tells alot more, it worked. no point dwelling on why something stopped. better to collect data from undiscovered animals, set a baseline to set the standard and fine people who fail to comply. its an industry killer. stop the potshot long range light arrows shooters who lose more then they recover. in the past shot distances was set around 40 feet, several 70lb bows shoot faster then current 80lb bows. bragging rights, fine them, fine people who use inadequate arrows. well doesnt matter, chemical food eaters want hunting banned. 10yrs from now their gone (sickness, death or returned to meat to live), you can present data and appropriate rules
@@quintenbullard2921you will shoot at a deer at 25 and it will react and your slow arrow will hit it in the ass. lol. Story after story online. Need some level of speed to be accurate.
@@isaacjestus I don’t think you understand what’s being taught. Perfect arrow flight with a well constructed broadhead/arrow as heavy as you can go while maintaining arrow flight that you find acceptable. On top of that the difference in arrow flight is 10th or hundreds of seconds like a snap. You’re not gaining that much speed as you increase arrow weight. I also don’t think most of those stories are accurate. People shoot deer bad. They get excited and make bad shots. Do some deer react more than others? Yes but that hunter may have made a bad shot or could have misread the animals body language If you’re talking 30 yards and in the different in impact time is very minimal and 50+ the “fast arrow” also allows time for them to move What’s the limitations of a bow and arrow?
@@isaacjestus what about the stories of no penetration without hitting heavy bone. Or your arrow turning 90 degrees on impact because the blades act funny
thing that is bad, division people think you push 750gr arrow to hunt a rabbit to get through the bone, then dumb people go use an 80lb bow 450gr arrow on a buffalo to prove, it may work whith a thousand shots. seem alot off people dont get reality, buy 2 bows small and larger game bows, buy a third iff you want to hunt a big game animal. its about speed, fine why my 500gr arrow doing 300fps then your 420gr arrow doing 280fps oh cause his arrows lighter it must be faster is so pathetic, they should be banned from injuring animals
You have to understand the beast head penetrates like a fixed due to having independently compressible blade tech. You can't call that a normal mechanical.
It's an old design it's better than standard rear deployment heads but just go back and look at rocky mountain gator xp heads same as beast without the springs from back in early 2000s
I shoot 18Inches of POLISHED MACHINED REBAR for my crossbow bolts out my 1000fps Homemade DIY VERTICAL INLINE MINI CROSSBOW with STAINLESS STEAL 6 inch 4blade (COC) hybrid mechanical Broadheads that ARE electrofied and they PARALYZE the deer 🦌 upon impact & during ARROW penetration/ pass through so IT'S quite a shocking experience to say the least ... it basically cleans and cooks the deer , pig or whatever animal you choose for you !
The dudes at griz Stix must be scratching their heads over the publicity this ass clown gets when they have the same info on their website and ashby has been the base of their tech from the beginning.
Troy said they were going to test the average bow hunter set up well a 600 plus grain arrow is not the average guys set up! I think the average guys set up is 65 pounds to 72 pounds and a 430 to 520 grain arrow. Test that not 600 plus
Great conversation guys. You guys don’t see 100% eye to eye but were able to have a very constructive conversation that stayed on topic and is very resourceful. Great episode.
Maybe I am wrong but I feel like the social media bow hunting world is over complicating this whole thing.
Nope. It’s the commercials and the marketing that for the last 20 years has completely missed the point of lighter and more durable carbon arrows being a better starting point for a more efficient arrow that has the weight in the tip. Not the tail and through out the whole arrow. Aluminum were easily bent and become wobbly in flight, and seem to be heavy from front to back. Where as a carbon arrow is opposite.
The marketing ppl did everyone a disservice letting ppl believe in their own fantasies that faster as a laser beam can somehow replace the energy a heavier arrow. It’s simply not accurate.
Nope. You're not wrong. And people still think it's all about the weight of the arrow when it's not even the main part of it.
@@HotepSaoirse nobody’s ever said that. Nobody! The problem is that everyone is too lazy to think or listen.
@@voxpopuli905 I wasn't talking to you
@@HotepSaoirse yeah well I was talking to you. You and the other hundred ppl commenting and even making 40 min videos giving their grandiose opinions based on NOthing. The problem is that most people are dumb and they don’t listen, and refuse to think, and refuse to acknowledge they don’t know everything. Nor are they open to criticism or change, nor are they interested in being the best they can be. Half ass is good enough. The only people who even attempt to argue with this guy are the ppl who are dumb and incapable of listening or thinking. It’s ok to be ignorant on a subject but when someone guards their ignorance…it becomes stupidity
Been watching you both for years. Great pod! Good luck this season to the both of you.
445 to 500 is plenty of weight i believe for deer..For 20 years I shot a 420 to 435 arrow with great success...
Great arrow weight!
Love Ranch Fairy and Brandon collabs, great video guys.
Thanks for watching it!
Always a good conversation with you two.
Thanks for the solid convo with RF, not just having him on to stroke your own ego like dud dun did
Yeh how strange was that behaviour from dud, I respect dud but he was showing some narcissistic tendencies there. It was really weird.
@@sgtcaco I didn't come away with that impression at all. I thought Dudley held it together really well
@@TheArrowBuilder The reason why are say this is that Dud went on to say that he had never watched the RF channel or barley new anything about him, also RF firstly told dud his long history with bow hunting, then it seemed dud tried to school him and treat him as a beginner. I know dude is very knowledgeable but some of his comments were a little harsh.
@@sgtcaco I struggle to find the right analogy - but imagine a professional engine builder who's been doing it for 35 years. Some random guy comes along on TH-cam, gains a following by essentially talking smack and saying nearly every engine builder in the country has been doing it all wrong including the manufacturers like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, GMC, Toyota, etc. Then starts telling that guy that he's got it all wrong and in order to get the best results you need to do XYZ when you know that there are tradeoffs and there's no free ride.
The reality is like engine building - you're making tradeoffs and the V8 you build for a drag car is completely different than the V8 you'd do for a tractor pull. Engine builders know that, just like people who build hunting arrows know that. Troy is like saying everyone should build a low end torque V8 and there's no downsides at the track. The entire archery industry has been putting stuff to test for decades, it's not some conspiracy. Range forgiveness and time in flight are REAL things. It's not make believe where you can hand wave it away. It matters and you're personal hunting conditions dictate what is best. IE are you on the track, towing or do you just need something that is good all around.
This isn't to say you should shoot a underspined, low FOC, 350 spine arrow with a poor quality broadhead. That's like the Geo Metro of hunting setups. If you're looking for an all around arrow go 410 grains minimum with a 295 fps maximum for fixed blades, shoot a properly to stiff spined arrow, decent FOC, quality components and sharp great flying & durable broadheads. All of which can be done without breaking the bank.
@@TheArrowBuilder well did feels threatened then?
He does the same thing, he shoots elk with a 550gn that is a heavy arrow, if dud shot buffalo he would probably use 650gn. I love both of these guys and they both make sense to me. I think it’s just dud feeling vulnerability from a marketing and archery political side of things. Even though your analogy dips cool, it’s not that deep.
Guys, arrow weight is like near the bottom of the list in Ashby's study, yet we all fight about that. It's not a factor unless you hit heavy bone. Find your sweet spot and do you.
Agree
What I am hearing about spine alignment is exactly what I have experienced as well. I find that looking down the inside of the shaft and finding the seam is not only easier and cheaper, but a better way to find a start point. Since I have started doing this, I have found that I only need one adjustment or less to nock tune my arrows.
That’s the main reason why I buy victory arrows anymore they come spine aligned
Awesome conversation guys. I went into the holea couple years ago. I have a old Mathews Q2 , she loves the serious apalo,250 standard insert and sleeve with the ranch ferry 200 up front. Dart.. And much quieter. She's a killer
I am glad to see you back. I have been wondering where you were.
I hope they publish the arrow speeds. Draw weight doesn't really matter because bows of different poundages can shoot the same weight arrow different speeds.
Draw weight makes a huge difference. Can you elaborate?
Draw length makes your powerstroke significantly different which translates to fps and higher momentum with a good amount of weight.
After going down this rabbithole ive settled on 500grn. Gives me the best of all worlds. @30.5" draw i get the most out of my bow so don't need the 6-700gn arrow.
My favorite is a small fixed 1-1/4" 3 blade. 150gn.
@@islandpainter3964 I agree with you, I'm confused on where you came to the conclusion that draw weight doesn't really matter?
Based on my own experimentation from a 400 grain arrow at 55lbs and a short 400 spine now going up to a 500 grain Easton Axis which includes a brass insert, Easton collar, and a 100 grain head, I can see the penetration difference and hear the impact. It has also quieted the bow. I upped my poundage from 55 to 60 and these arrows are hitting like a truck. I may be a little slower but I will take that as a plan B option.
I’m just disappointed I did not draw this year for deer in CO.
I wouldn't describe this as that heavy of a setup. You did increase the draw weight to minimize the difference in velocity. Personally, I'd recommend a little lighter 204 GPI shaft than the Axis. Which you could then have a tad bit more FOC and a little lower weight. For no real sacrifice in penetration and a small increase in velocity. A 450-475 grain arrow would be great for you're setup to split the difference.
How is it you can get Troy to stay on subject ? lol I’ve lowered my weight on the arrow too , I’ve watched mfjj and Troy for years , like them both , my set up now is 60 pound Kure , 29 1/2 inch draw ,500 grain arrow . Shooting the 150 magnus broad heads ( not single bevel ) with 50 grain brass insert , I’m shooting 300 spine arrows because it’s what I had but the 350’s shoot good to, I’m 66 years old shot a recurve for years, don’t plan on ever shooting over 60 yards , I think razor sharp, good broad heads and arrow flight are the most important thing in killing stuff , both Troy and mfjj do agree on this point .. thank for the podcast .
Do the math ! Sharp, stiff arrow, good arrow flight. Would you rather be hit by a 100 mph fastball or 100 mph F150 ! Weight matters !
I think one of the biggest issues with the Archery community is that with social media and the internet a lot of people have opinions based on knowledge they didn’t earn. They just consumed it and regurgitated it. The other hindrance is that anyone can criticize without credentials. There’s no need to rally in to camps or tribes.
You, yes you. Go shoot your bow and come up with your own conclusions. Listen and consume but don’t assume you know what you’re talking about until you try it.
I want to see @ranchfairy test the Beast broadheads with a heavy arrow. I’m just curious what that head will do….
@@Kevanroskam I think almost everyone agrees that foc is the important distinction the grater you can get that while still maintaining a light arrow and good flight is where heavy and light guys agree. So I don't think you gain benefit from upping the arrow weight to much. But a good brass insert and the beast upping the tip weight of the arrow would be a good test
I think that shimming the cams, changes the relationship of the arrow to the center of the riser. Similar to moving the rest. Shimming the cams also changes cam lean.
That's exactly what it does.
Got a question.. I’m kinda old .. we have some sizable hogs here in south Mississippi.. I’m not a fan of high FOC. I’m from the 90s 3-D world where we shot 6.8% FOC for flat trajectory. (Judging yardage) that was the limit for 12 ring accuracy at 45 yards. Go to 6.6 FOC and you had tennis ball accuracy at 45.. that being said, I used weight tubes from 3-Rivers in my 340 spine arrows .. 3gr per inch, my arrows are 29”. That’s 84 grains . I also used a woodsmen head at 150gr. Machined 3 blade with an inch cut. That was 134 grains heavier than my standard set up. That put me at around 554gr. My thought is that mass is mass. You can increase spine and with with heavy inserts, outserts, heads etc and achieve the same weight. Difference is FOC. Math says they are the same momentum and KE.. my setup shoots much flatter at the same weight. Because of FOC. So we can achieve a heavy arrow with say a 9%FOC .plenty of accuracy but with a flatter trajectory.. I’d be interested in y’all’s input on that logic. I know the results I’ve probably harvested more animals than each of y’all. I’ve seen first hand many instances. I do tune bows, build arrows, all the above. Have been since the early 90s. Wonderful content and thanks for the conversation with RF..
I’ve theorized that FOC doesn’t matter for impact but adding the weight upfront requires a stiffer shaft. Stiffer shaft= less shaft flapping as it enters the animal. Overtime I think what I’ve learned is that lots of stuff works. And pretty much everything works if you shoot him right in the ribs broadside!
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I completely agree with this. I tend to go one spine stiff for builds and use point weight to weaken it a hair. I also think that a mechanical greatly benefits from a stiff shaft.
I agree, the major manufactures bows get to the shop pretty squared up and won't need much to tune. The issues arise when the shop needs to change out parts (modules) to get the bow to fit you at the poundage you want. Then the shop, or you, may need to adjust cam timing and synchronize the cams.
I’ve seen a noticeable quality increase from 10 years ago. It’s impressive imo how consistently good all the manufacturers seem to be now
Farm Pixie strikes again with his recurve theory applied to compound.
@KirkBonds too bed you're not smart enough to realize it works really well. Guys like the hunting public and others who fought Troy are happy with the results of heavier arrows.
I can’t get the guys saying it’s wasted energy when the arrow hits the dirt behind the animal. It is energy for when things go wrong but it ain’t a bullet. Obviously arrows use energy to penetrate so they cut as much as possible. Bullets use energy to penetrate and disrupt organs and other tissue. Since we only need penetration from arrow energy, heck yes blow clean through them, 2 holes are better than 1. Don’t think I need to say that but there ya go.
Brandon , try the IP nock with the 3d hv, I switched to that from the pin nock and they shoot excellent.
At 15:14 the Fairy picks his nose, then eats his booger on video!! LMAO
He is just picking that fairy dust outta his nostril..He had that drainage.
nice try he did no such thing lol he picked his nose not eat it after
Yup, he 100% ate it.
Yup, he definitely ate that booger.
Troy doesn’t give a f if you agree or don’t. Shoot what you want. There’s no reason to make stupid childish comments but hey it helps Brandon with the algorithm so whatever
I also built a set just as Troy mentions where the shaft shot up to 300 gr field tips but would not shoot broadheads.
I've been waiting for this to post!
I just cant imagine shooting a ski pole out of my bow.
What about a noodle lol?
Well said 💪
@@kingbronco6398 LOL
A lot of the time when learning to and say you do go to the shop and you ask him to do something you want to watch what they're doing turn around fiddle around for a couple seconds and bring it back out to you and say it's good you know and usually if you got like a severe tear out the top let's say the knock is going out the top that means your top cam is picking up faster and the other way if it's at the bottom it means your bottom cams picking up faster
Brandon just said something that a lot of people might not have heard but to do bare shaft tune you better make sure your grip is good your stance your form and your release because I tell you right now if you're slapping the hell out of the trigger it's going to be really hard for you to Bear Chef too
I've personally lost faith that 90% of hunters can bareshaft tune. Their form doesn't allow for it.
You guys need to understand that you can set a bow to “zero” and rarely will it shoot a bullet hole without making adjustments, so was it really “zeroed” then You will have to make additional adjustments to shoot a fixed blade head accurately, so there goes your bullet hole. Which one do you think is a better representation of zeroing. I myself believe the fixed blade head is because everyone shoots differently and yes the bullet hole saves you time when making minor adjustments for the broadhead but when you’re done they both go too the same point of impact! Field tips what show you correct spine like a broadhead will.
Bullet hole is just a good starting point, I agree. But since there has to be a starting point it may as well be, bullet hole. 🤷🏻♂️
John Dudley is shooting 75# with a 530 grain arrow and a 30.5" draw. So when you're bringing that kind of power you can use almost anything you want on the front
That’s a heavy arrow anyway,
@@sgtcaco I'd call that a normal arrow. Heavy is relative to the archer, 530 grains for a 27.5" archer at 60# would be on the heavy side. For Dud at that length you need a stiffer shaft which generally is heavier and a longer arrow. To get the FOC decent you need a heavier insert. His mass is just a byproduct of his length, some FOC and enough fletching. If you are 28" then a normal arrow setup would be like 440. Everything is relative.
arrows spin regardless if there is a broadhead or fletchings test a bareshaft and field point almost all strings will cause a left rotation with a few brands causing a right rotation
We need an “On the Mic with McDonald Podcast” or something!
I just feel like when you get an arrow that light and you're trying to push it that hard instead of it being drugged through the air it's being pushed really hard from the ass in and it's just so finicky I tell you now I always shot a heavy arrow and never do it and never even really knew that you know what I mean
Sorry gentleman, I have been shooting 2 months and I am ready to hunt, I have already hadn3 robinhoods, my ground a 30m are super tight, bare shafting is no problem, already made my first hunting arrows, I’m pumped and ready for the hunt.
Happy hunting.
I really think the people you are talking about that gets the 600 spine arrow really think that 600 means grains because they don't know any better I've heard people say I'm shooting 400 gr. and you look at there arrow and it's 400 spine that's my thinking on it and I really wish that the industry would redo there charts because they are really out of date
Really? I have been into archery for 5 weeks and I know the difference, you would have to be pretty dumb to get the two mixed up.
@@sgtcaco
then I'm not talking about you I'm talking about people that don't know and some of them was older men that was just getting into hunting within the past few years
@@tracychilds3546 were*
If you hit above the lung and it didn't drop, you shot back strap meat rt under the skin and that's all ...there is ZERO space between top of lung and spine
I shoot 90 # bowtech 450 grains at 320 fos shoots just as good as my 70 # mathews with 600 ranch fairy arrows
Yall need to look at Dudleys HIL method. It will show you what you arrow spine is doing to your groups
Groups aren’t the only thing that matters. You can still get pretty consistent groups with an out of tune bow. Chris Bee said in an interview once that sometimes out of tune was better for target archery
If a man shots a 400 grain head connected to a 400 spine arrow out of a 70 pound bow, would the arrow not fold in half immediately upon firing? All the weight in the front and the force in the back. You’re saying it will fold like a banana on target?
Dude Brandon be careful with them whitetail specials. Used em for 2 seasons, started losing deer. First year was great second year I realized how dull the blades were after I lost 2 deer
IP nock is probably the best nock out right now. I use them on all my target and hunting arrows
They’re great!
It's most definitely the most durable.
You know a lot of Target archers will tune their bare shaft with the rip in the paper a lot of guys feel like it feels the same exact Arrow every time and then if they do a bullet hole they feel like it's not as forgiving I've heard this several times this is target archery
Do you know how long Josh has been practicing the art of shooting like that though he has went through several several intense situations to get himself there where he's at and I guarantee it it was a heavy ass Arrow really high pound each bow
For as much time as they have spent working with bows and making content centered around archery, it is wild to me to hear a statement that you can't shoot a 400 grain arrow with an 80 lb bow or that it is difficult to get good arrow flight. That simply isn't true. It's just basic tuning like you would with any other setup.
I'm not going to re listen or look for it but I'm sure they said 400 spine.
@@vickventer53 It's at 2:54 in the video. For people who may not know a 400 grain arrow is the weight used to IBO speed test an 80lb bow.
@@BlackwaterBounddepends on a lot of things. I shoot 80lbs at 31”. It would be hard for me to make a 400 grain arrow with the length. It’s impossible to tune thst light of an arrow in my bow.
That is the problem with the bow shop by me
Bummer
@brandonmcdonald6121 my bow is shooting shaft tail low left threw paper. I've backed down my shot to 25yrds but still see a sideways arrow in flight. I'm still scratching my head. I have 200 to 350 spine arrows and they all fly the same.
The problem I have with testing on animals is that no two shots are ever identical. How can you truly compare penetration between two different arrow setups when the target medium is never the same?
Through 30 years of data collection, from shooting only on animals.
Oh, by the way... that's EXACTLY what the Natal Study is. 631 animals, with 119 data points for every shot on every animal.
Then you analyze the trends.
@@PersonalBestOutdoors with inefficient stick bows.
@@stick__shooteryeh is a flawed medium stuck on old methods bows are now so accurate and efficient and mechanicals are improving so rapidly. You loose benifit of something if you tilt to far one way with your set up. Pretty simple build your set up to suit your ability there is a reason anyone that can shoot doesn't go overly heavy.
@stick__shooter this is the problem. I am sorry, but you are incorrect. Compound bows were also used in the Natal Study. Feel free to audit this info. All of it is available on the Ashby Bowhunting site.
And the testing actually continues. Rob Nielson (the current president of the foundation) uses an 82lb compound. They've also tested crossbows. Again, all of this info is found pretty easily online. Still adding information. Testing broadheads, including sevr heads, rages, and all the popular mechanicals. That's the entire point of a study. To learn and know why. The study isn't over because new stuff comes out. You test it, and publish results. That's why I don't understand why people have so much animosity towards the foundation. It's like everyone assumes because Doc preferred an 84lb longbow named "Lady" for hunting, that was all he used. They also are under the assumption that they claim you can't kill animals sub 650gr. 650 is overkill on an elk... until you reach humorous ball or other heavy bone. Then mass above the "heavy bone threshold" is nice to have.
Suffice it to say, as apparent in these comments, people would rather believe marketing hype than to actually read information.
@@PersonalBestOutdoors he stopped using the compound in the original. Study because it kept passing through so he couldn't measure penetration. I've seen the study and it has plenty of merit when it comes to low energy setups, but modern compounds are a whole different ballpark. I'm not a pusher of super fast, light setups. I'm a middle of the road guy. 425-500 launching around 260-290 will work well on anything in North America and still have good trajectory. I was a Fairy follower several years ago and for me the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
After going up to 455 grains and 14% foc, I will never go back down. With fixed I never had a penetration problem with only 400 grains and 9% foc. The problem was when I tried that with mechanicals. I had major problems. The contrast between the two setup was night and day. Dudley and Troy have tremendously helped me in archery. I wish Dudley wasn't such an ego driven prick.
Ego driven prick? He is a phenomenal archer, and has an incredible amount of knowledge, talent, and experience. Why do you think he's an ego driven prick?
Agreed Dudley is a little condescending but he's got gravitas. The guy is a true technician with serious shooting chops. I think some of these guys like MFJJ and Dudley and others who are real equipment experts and great shooters (actually don't know if MFJJ is a great shooter) get annoyed/frustrated with people who don't have their knowledge and experience.
@@toddzoro9831 I came across with the same impression. It takes a lot of patience for someone who's ran a shop for many many years or shot competitively to sit down and listen to someone who may know quite a bit about one thing, but very little about rest. Most shop owners who deal with a wide variety of customers generally have very similar advice. I just don't buy that it's some conspiracy that only the few can see the benefits. Maybe there's real reasons that people stopped shooting these setups.
Anyone seen Chris Bees newest waterbuffalo pincushioning?
I was hoping Troy would have a conversation on that.
lol it was terrible
Bee is a joke.
Yes, shameful. He should have known better than that. He bought too much into Joel Maxfield's bullshit and ballistic gel penetration tests.
@@cjr4497 yeah, what a joke.
The more I rewatch these videos the more I feel the Ashby's study is missing so much by using such large game as the "standard". Bone density, size of body, distance.
Quality of the material hitting the animal, lots of questions
people think top cam is advanced from the factory, 2 reason its ment to be so it settles to equal once shot 100 times, also people dont center the rest abd dloop the the bottom off the shart to the center off the rest hole. get an archery shop to do it, iff you want to keep paying them to never fix it
The more I watch and listen to archery/bow hunting vids, I learn I’m Jon Snow, and I’ll prob never be able to bow hunt ethically.
tournament archers never shoot bows in spec, they lose when they do. left tear for some perfect. broadhead tune ignore the paper tears afterwards cause they were false to begin with
You can’t run a 300 grain arrow in an 80 lb how? Since when…
400 spine
@@coobsoutdoors sorry, 300.
So I had the PSC and still have the Evo sc34 and the PSC told me to start it at 7 8 off of the riser a complete 16th or whatever over 3/4 that's way outside what I come to find out is they had the wrong limbs on the wrong side of the bowl it's supposed to be like a mix match and you work from the top right lightest to heaviest clockwise so your light is Slim will be at the top right your heavy is limb will be at the top left I had so much trouble with that boat trying to get it to shoot broadheads now I have the new BowTech it's the 34 that like dark gray color and it is a rocket I love it is the most amazing feeling bow and arrow I have ever shot and I have a lot I have the big 38 target bow all set up with the whistles and buttons you know I I really love archery I got my own string making jigs I got my own boat press Vise I got everything you could think of you know that is a Archer's paradise and I have shot a lot of bow and arrow and it is the most forgiving most amazing draw cycle when it comes to the holding weight you can play with that
Dan Fitzgerald shoots right handed with fingers no sides and he’s blind in his right eye. Use his left one.
Yes! So glad yall are doing this! Can’t wait to watch!! Yall are both awesome!
I never watched this channel, or RF’s, or Dudley’s until this week. I stumbled on the 3 way and thought Dud was a douche, but not as bad as everyone else made it seem. Regardless, I will now listen to some from all, because there is no ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT. I think there are nuggets to take away from each. Keep it up. And RF, I used my friend google and have no idea where you are selling anything - I keep hearing “we sell” “we help” and have no idea the platform you are doing this on. May want to spend some time on the marketing…
Sirius archery is one avenue
Yeah Sirius archery. He doesn’t care about mass marketing much.
Sirius Archery and Ashby Bowhunting Foundation, to be exact.
1/8 inch rest adjustment is fine, iff your beyond that, get shooting lessons, mathews and usual hoyt hace center accurate on their bows. flipping shims you will need to move them back eventually, its a last resort so move your rest. center the bottom off the arrow with the center off the rest bolt, that fixes most issues instantly, 13/16 from the epsilon housing, and the qad no need to shim, too much wrong things to do for a simple issues. you set the bow rest up wrong fix it not shim
I wish you could have talked more about using a mechanical on a higher FOC, mid weight arrow.
I’m in the same boat as you Brandon. Lost two deer last year because of minimal blood trail in super thick honeysuckle with a heavy single bevel setup.
This year I’m trying out the G5 Deadmeat with 530 grain total arrow weight. I’m hoping the 3 blade will result in a better blood trail and better arrow flight for more penetration. Time will tell I guess.
I know a sponsored shooter who can't shut up about heavy arrows with mechanicals. Crazy guys who can shoot a deer in a 15-20mph wind at over 100 yards, and they run as heavy as possible that still gets the range.
@@YoureSoVane who
@@takuroshinji2445 I'm not too comfortable with real names, but he's sponsored by Elite, Victory, and one of the shops in my state.
@@takuroshinji2445 I know that sponsored shooters want to be recognized, but I don't feel like name dropping where people might send hate mail.
@@YoureSoVane I just wanted to watch their content tbh
So I like a super light Arrow you're going to have to really pay attention to everything which way the string is served the not fit the Nock pinch every single little thing in my point of view I feel like a heavier arrow is just more forgiving
This is true. I think there is a point of diminishing returns though. Anything around 280 fps is pretty easy to tune if you're form is decent. I have zero issues at 294 fps and haven't for 10 years. If you're trying to shoot over 300 fps it's a lot more touchy - especially with fixed heads. Forget shooting a solid head at that speed IMHO. Everything is a tradeoff.
420 grains is more than enough on a deer!
Depends where you hit ‘em!
bows are set for above 80% off the people who shoot bows, difference is hand torque, get archery lessons, if you broken bones in your hand, you many need to move shims.
I lost 2 monsters with my arrow bounced off there shoulder almost. I'll never ever go back to flapper
Perfect example right here I had a deer come in on my far left what kind of quartering to me a little bit I was shooting double bevel Broadhead right so I'm thinking I'm just going to put it right on the shoulder and let it eat okay but this was a double bevel I couldn't have done this with the mechanical there's no way in hell I would have just found stuff it hit the shoulder big phone right there for the all about the knuckle on the chest so I hit a little high but I was in an elevated tree stand I should have aimed a little lower but the Broadhead road to the left okay it was super sharp so it rolled toward his chest so not going towards the vitals going the opposite way like literally going to miss him but it may contact with that shoulder and shots straight across his brisket never went inside the animal okay but exploded the shoulder cut everything it touched because it was razor sharp he walked over about 20 yards laid down and bled out simple fact was I exploded that shoulder but that didn't help me what helped me was the fact that the arrow kept going and it was razor sharp and cut everything in its path every big artery and vein that was in that shoulder he just lost every bit of blood within a couple minutes
26:54 it’s the mass.
The answer is to that question is not so cut and dry. The lower your poundage/draw the more the mass/foc are the leading factors in penetration because you dont have the high impact velocity flexing the shaft as much.
On the other end of the spectrum, if your high# and long draw, having an extremely stiff shaft is almost as important as foc.
I'm near the top of the spectrum 83#/30.5" 755gr-810gr, 200spine 'currently'
When I was working my way up on mass, I was using heavy inserts to gain foc and bouncing between Amazon's cheapest singlebevels and 300gr kodiaks, vpa, abowyer etc. (tuned&sighted for heavy to use on XL hogs). I started with 250spine/180gr SS outsert uncut, and had some wierd experiences with the lighter SB heads on moderately sized hogs (100-160lb'ers) where a couple stopped in them, but once I moved up to a 200 spine shaft the lighter heads started blowing through almost as good as the heavier heads.
It also needs to be said that I aim to hit the top of the heart(very foward inbetween the shoulders) regardless of angle, and I'll take any angle given.
The importance of foc cannot be overstated, but the importance of shaft stiffness to help keep that momentum in line is a huge factor as well imo
@@Bartimusblue27 yeah, I tested a heavy FOC arrow and a heavier arrow with lower FOC and the latter penetrated better. I think because the added mass made the shaft stiffer.
@@paulheberling2750 adding mass makes the dynamic spine weaker, but increases the amount of 'pulling power' it has over the entire projectile.
@@Bartimusblue27 well doesn’t that depend on where the mass is added?
Like 95% of your vids but can't do these podcast things. 👍👍👍
On impact, the flex of the shaft will cost some energy but it's mostly dependent on the harness and mass of the target. A stiffer arrow AND a heavier arrow will both benefit, but a heavier projectile should benefit more than simply a stiffer spine. Above the buckling strength of the shaft, more stiffness doesn't provide significant returns.
31:39 👌
mathews top hats are easy not hard like other shims
people are getting weaker, hard to buy 60 65ln bows, 70 80lb are always in stock. tests should be done with 55 60lb bows to cover the broadest range of shooters
when an arrow stops, it tells it faled, if it passes through it’s obviously it tells alot more, it worked. no point dwelling on why something stopped. better to collect data from undiscovered animals, set a baseline to set the standard and fine people who fail to comply. its an industry killer. stop the potshot long range light arrows shooters who lose more then they recover. in the past shot distances was set around 40 feet, several 70lb bows shoot faster then current 80lb bows. bragging rights, fine them, fine people who use inadequate arrows. well doesnt matter, chemical food eaters want hunting banned. 10yrs from now their gone (sickness, death or returned to meat to live), you can present data and appropriate rules
Be careful snorting that fairy dust..It will get ya in the end.
How so?
@@quintenbullard2921you will shoot at a deer at 25 and it will react and your slow arrow will hit it in the ass. lol. Story after story online. Need some level of speed to be accurate.
@@isaacjestus
shooting at 25 yards is nothing with just about any set up besides traditional so you really don't know what your talking about
@@isaacjestus I don’t think you understand what’s being taught. Perfect arrow flight with a well constructed broadhead/arrow as heavy as you can go while maintaining arrow flight that you find acceptable.
On top of that the difference in arrow flight is 10th or hundreds of seconds like a snap. You’re not gaining that much speed as you increase arrow weight.
I also don’t think most of those stories are accurate. People shoot deer bad. They get excited and make bad shots. Do some deer react more than others? Yes but that hunter may have made a bad shot or could have misread the animals body language
If you’re talking 30 yards and in the different in impact time is very minimal and 50+ the “fast arrow” also allows time for them to move
What’s the limitations of a bow and arrow?
@@isaacjestus what about the stories of no penetration without hitting heavy bone. Or your arrow turning 90 degrees on impact because the blades act funny
If your broadheads are hitting right of the field points you have to move your rest to the right not the left.
Opposite of point of impact, but in the direction of the tear through paper if moving the rest. Just an FYI. 👍🏻
@@Vondoobie He's 100% correct. A broadhead right = tail left tear = move rest right.
@@TheArrowBuilder yes my comment was wrong. I deleted it to not spread disinformation.
Let’s go 🎉da man is back to TH-cam.
Lmmfao😂 1 min in and this clown talkin 1200 Mf grain arrow lmmfao😂
Testing the extremes! Also mentioned 350g just sayin
All the tuning, blah, blah, blah only to move the rest for the broadhead. Makes no sense.
Can you elaborate?
thing that is bad, division people think you push 750gr arrow to hunt a rabbit to get through the bone, then dumb people go use an 80lb bow 450gr arrow on a buffalo to prove, it may work whith a thousand shots. seem alot off people dont get reality, buy 2 bows small and larger game bows, buy a third iff you want to hunt a big game animal. its about speed, fine why my 500gr arrow doing 300fps then your 420gr arrow doing 280fps oh cause his arrows lighter it must be faster is so pathetic, they should be banned from injuring animals
You have to understand the beast head penetrates like a fixed due to having independently compressible blade tech. You can't call that a normal mechanical.
It's an old design it's better than standard rear deployment heads but just go back and look at rocky mountain gator xp heads same as beast without the springs from back in early 2000s
I shoot 18Inches of POLISHED MACHINED REBAR for my crossbow bolts out my 1000fps Homemade DIY VERTICAL INLINE MINI CROSSBOW with STAINLESS STEAL 6 inch 4blade (COC) hybrid mechanical Broadheads that ARE electrofied and they PARALYZE the deer 🦌 upon impact & during ARROW penetration/ pass through so IT'S quite a shocking experience to say the least ... it basically cleans and cooks the deer , pig or whatever animal you choose for you !
So you’re the one with Thor’s Hammer and a Tesla coil in your workshop…Verrry Niiice!!
the fairy is to archery what an ingrown toenail is to a marathon runner.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
The dudes at griz Stix must be scratching their heads over the publicity this ass clown gets when they have the same info on their website and ashby has been the base of their tech from the beginning.
waste of time, pounding away over and over
Troy said they were going to test the average bow hunter set up well a 600 plus grain arrow is not the average guys set up! I think the average guys set up is 65 pounds to 72 pounds and a 430 to 520 grain arrow. Test that not 600 plus
Well he said 400gr also
He sure did
You didn't listen very well.
Pretty sure @brandonmcdonald hates us 🥺😭. Lol no more videos
Not true!! Just not creative enough to make good videos with the limited time I’ve got now. I miss posting regularly!
@@brandonmcdonald6121 we miss it too !