**WE'VE REACHED the BEST** Buffy the Vampire Slayer S2 Ep 14 Innocence Reaction: FIRST TIME WATCHING
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.พ. 2022
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the thing is he was always happy with buffy, but in the back of his mind the guilt still plagued him. but in the moment where he lost his soul he didn’t think about the guilt or the things he did, all he thought about was buffy, and he was truly happy
Spot on! So many people miss the guilt part!
Many people also miss it wasn’t “making love” with Buffy that gave him pure happiness, it was sleeping peacefully with her in his arms.
YAAAY!!!!!!
Angel with a soul is like a person with deep depression. He can laugh and smile and feel other emotions but deep down he is suffering. Unfortunately that night with Buffy made him forget that for a while
I think my favorite moment from this (since you asked) is the scene near the end where Giles says "all you'll get from me is my support...and my respect"
Although the scene where Buffy marches into Miss Calendar's class and grabs her by the throat is also pretty cool
Angelus isn't just evil - he is cruel, sadistic, obsessed, vicious...remember what he did to Drusila before turning her?
To be fair I think all of those fall under the umbrella term of evil. But then much like certain other words, I use that word so sparingly with actual people because like say charity, or certainty, it's a very big word.
@@barbarabaker1457 There are different types of evil, I suppose. Spike is more like an average vampire, although cranked up to 11. He doesn't seem to appreciate sadism the way Angelus does. We can leave it there for now since a lot of these questions will be answered, or at least partially answered as the series goes on....
Nowadays they’re called narcissists.
Ok, rant over 😁
@@pdoll96 👍 Rant appreciated
@@pdoll96 what Barbara said. :)
What I love is that, without any change in costume or styling (sans vamp-face) Angel and Angelus (to differentiate) are clearly two very different creatures. I don't think DB gets enough plaudits for his acting,
You literally described me " in a wheelchair but still talking trash " 😂😂😂
Also was in a wheelchair for a few years and almost spit out my drink when he said that
Truly one of the best gothic romances to ever be on the tube. Giles being the loving father in the car gets me every time.
This was also the first time Angel really openly tells Buffy he loves her ("I love you; I try not to, but I can't stop")--to me, that signals that he's always been a touch guarded before, never fully letting himself experience the happiness she brings him (especially that "i can't stop"--seems to indicate there's some new significance happening for him there in that moment). Here, he gives into it completely. It's definitely not just the sex (notice he doesn't "change" until sometime later, after they've been lying in bed together), but the UNGUARDED intimacy that that physical intimacy represented. That's my take anyway.
He essentially was always tormented by guilt despite his outward contentment. It was about having a brief moment where he was happy enough that he was oblivious to his own self-loathing. His soul was a punishment, to torture him with guilt. So the minute it stops serving its purpose...
Yes!
Me: “Oz is the perfect man”.
Also Me: “ Angel was sexiest when he lost his soul.”😂
yep
Nah, for me it’s Giles and Oz for the tie. Lusting after narcissistic psychopaths is in my rear view window... hopefully forever onward.
During all their previous times together Angel was always holding back a little and not giving his full being to the relationship....but when he "experienced a moment of true happiness" by finally sleeping with Buffy (and it being her first time) he was expressing his full love for her. And THAT is when the curse kicks in and he turns back to evil
It wasn't so much the sex, as the complete happiness of waking up next to the woman he loves.
Technically from what is said in the show Angel, it's the fact that he had a moment where he forgot all the pain he caused people in the past. He wasn't plagued by grief.
I think what is flying a little bit over your head (not surprinsgly, as you have probably never been a teenage girl - i assume) Is that Buffys reaction to her mother has to do with her loss of Virginity. As a woman, i remember that feeling. Like it was written on your face, like everyone could see it. And due to the general Stigma that still surrounds underage passionate hugging for girls, even more back when the show aired there is always that little voice in the back of your mind asking: "Am I dirty now?"
It's terrible, but sadly it is how it often happens
What a moving comment. Thank you for sharing that perspective
Which is why she is expecting criticism from Giles for doing wrong
@@invadertifxiii Kind of also just for having sex. Sl*t shaming is real, especially from older men, mentors and such. Of course Giles is amazing, but she was still afraid.
I see Surprise/Innocence as the peak of what this show was initially going for. This is a show where the supernatural themes are meant to reflect the trials of growing up, especially early on in the series. It’s also a show that attempts to blend camp and wit with emotional depth and epic storytelling. While I don’t feel these two episodes are the best episodes of the series (though “Innocence” is probably in my top 10), I do think it’s the peak of those initial themes and creative ambitions.
Agree. Most of the first season was taking growing up tropes and spinning them with the supernatural
Eg - the parent trying to live past glories through the child, the person being ignored, bullying
And obviously this was the bf being a dick after sex
If you listen to Joss's commentary of Innocence, that's more or less what he's saying : the show had reached a point where he COULD do this brutal tone shift, and still make it work, thanks to the actors who had made the characters truly come to life.
Angelus was an incredibly evil SOB for over 100 years. A lot of the time he is barely holding it together, which is why he's so reserved. And even when he's around Buffy, he's always worried about whether they should even be together, both from a vamp and slayer perspective and from an over 200 years age difference perspective. His conscience has a LOT of weight. Even if he is enjoying something, there has to be that doubt in his mind, does he even deserve that - his soul still plagues him.
I find it easy to believe that, just for one perfect moment, waking up next to the woman he loves and has just had a great night with, lying in her arms, at that moment he was briefly at peace...
I think Angelus, Spike, and Dru's prioritizing of suffering over death and their love of drama over efficiency comes down to wanting to keep eternal life interesting. Living forever would get kinda dull if you took the most obvious route to killing your enemies. Plus sometimes they do take advantage of opportunities presented to them and Buffy still gets out of it and kicks their ass.
Well said!
One of my favorite char moments for Xander is realizing that... he was basically seeing in real life a moment he probably had nightmares about, the moment Angel took advantage of their trust and attacked them
What amazes me is the realisation that until this ep no one apart from xander had any problems or concerns about angel's involvement with the slayer, not even giles or the watchers council whom would know that A curses could be broken if not the details and B no one bothered to research the curse.
And that angel was going to kill his other best friend.
That moment with Willow, when she says "It just means you'd rather be with someone you hate than with me" is not the most overtly dramatic moment of the show, but somehow it's always the one that hits me hardest. Just... a straight punch to the gut with a giant steel hammer. Maybe _because_ it's not big and fantastical and the stakes aren't life and death and the entire world. It's just two people who've been best friends for forever and one inadvertantly did something that _really fucking hurt_ the other and just... that quite heartbreak in Willow's voice... always gets me.
Well, go on, make a wish.
I'll just let it burn.😭
Notice it’s not the “act” itself that causes the change as some are saying. Angel loses his soul in the night AFTER the act while they are blissfully sleeping. His soul was restored as a punishment, so he would be forced to feel never ending guilt. However souls can also allow us to feel true joy. Which kinda turns the curse into a gift huh? Angel felt truly at peace lying there with her and forgot just for a moment all the pain and suffering. And THAT’s the moment his soul is lost.
Yes, Willow needed someone to protect her in that hallway and that someone was XANDER. It always gets lost when talking about this episode, that Xander went toward the danger and saved Willow. So, can we just acknowledge that he's not a coward or useless? Please and thank you.
Yes, Xander has put himself in harms way multiple times, plus no matter how annoying he may be to some people, his sarcasm never fails to make me laugh. It's why he probably ranks higher than Willow in my list. A lot of the jokes that land for me mainly come from Xander and Cordelia actually.
Whats amazing is willow's lack of self preservation, no danger sense whatsoever, it comes off as delusional behaviour like she doesn't want to acknowledge that vampires and demons are soulless killers.
Bravo to David's acting this episode. Angelous loves to mess with his victims, as Angel told Buffy in "Lie to Me": He slowly drove Drusilla insane before turning her into a vampire. Just seeing how Dru behaves as a result tells us pretty much all we need to know. And I agree, Buffy should have captured him at the very least after giving him that nice, well-deserved kick. I sooo love the conversation with Giles and Buffy in the car at the end. So good. It is a good point that Giles withheld a lot of information previously in regards to Jenny. You are right about Xander. He has some moments that really get under my skin, but when the chips are down, he's there. And yes, Oz has become more involved in the gang. His whole "So do you guys steal weapons from the army alot?" is so perfect. He has some really healthy outlooks and boundaries, as well.
It wasn't the sex that gave Angel his moment of happiness. It was the utter bliss, the perfect contentedness of holding the woman he loves in his arms, of making love with her and what it meant to both of them. And that's the cruelty of the curse. For Angel, it denies him the solace of another, of the person he cares for most. A true tragedy.
I think by 'true happiness' they mean that he let go of all his guilt and of his past, perhaps in the joy and acceptance he felt he had a moment of real hope that happiness and redemption is indeed possible for him and that lead to genuine peace of mind and well soul;))) the curse was to never allow him that. ever.
Great reaction!!! there are many many great episodes ahead..in this season and the next ones. This is where the show truly begins .
Angel always had a demon in him, that's how vampires work in the show. The soul is basically just their good conscience, their morals. Not having a soul doesn't mean he's being controlled, it's still him, just without morals, without guilt or remorse.
Enter Angelus.
I can't wait to see what happens between he and Buffy this season..
@@nickreacts6394 Please,check my main comment.(Just trying to make sure since I wrote it"late".)
This is still one of the most badass moment in TV history for me... and it's been years but Buffy in this episode still gets me in every way possible!
I love this show, but they steped up their game so hard during season 2!
Also yes! Oz gives me life and Angelus is fantastic! Still one of my favorite big bads in the show
It has to be perfect happiness, merely having a nice day won't cut it, it has to be pure joy. Angel was cursed with a soul so he could feel guilt for all the hundreds of lives he's destroyed for the 100 years before he was cursed, it was done to make him suffer. The clan didn't anticipate that not only would this vampire fall in love but it would be with a vampire slayer.
Its not that they didn't anticipate it, they just didn't care. They didn't curse him so he would stop raping, torturing and murdering, they did it to punished the demon. They didn't curse him so he would become a champion say it with me they did it to punished the demon.
Testament to David Boreanaz acting in these episodes. He is so believable in both extremes. My favorite part of this episode is when he leaves the school hallway after threatening Willow and he does that side strafe out of the door like a feral animal maintaining eye contact with its prey. Superb acting and direction. Moments like that are why Buffy was super underrated.
"The two things that matter the most to me are... emotional resonance... and rocket launchers."
-- Joss Whedon
oz is a treasure. hes such a good character. im glad that giles was there for buffy and didnt try to justify jenny. buffy really needs him to have her back here.
Yeah! We can share the Oz love now. Oz and Willow is my favourite moment, but it's tough to pick. Either that or Giles in the car. I know there is so much epic happening, but Joss Whedon writes incredible quiet moments. :) Giles' reaction breaks my heart - I always felt that Giles is reacting to the risk to Buffy, not Jenny keeping secrets. He'd give Jenny up to protect Buffy.
"He'd give Jenny up to protect Buffy."True,but in this case it's a pretty stupid move.Shutting Jenny out _won't_ help Buffy..all the opposite,I might say.
This is the point in the show where it changes from very good to amazing and mature.
The Surprise and Innocence 2-parter is just so awesome. I cannot choose because every moment is fantastic. I love Buffy's heartbreaking vulnerability, Xander's brilliant plan, Oz with Willow (so so beautiful - I love the look on Alyson Hannigan's face when Oz says "It's all right... I can wait."), Giles standing up for Buffy (with Ms. Calendar, and in the car telling her "If it's guilt you're looking for, I'm not your man"), Angel's breath-stealing viciousness, the Judge's cluelessness about modern weaponry (lol)... it's all SO GOOD.
With the Angel's one moment of happiness question, the way I think about it is this: even when Angel had those happy intimate moments with Buffy before this episode, there was probably still a layer of guilt and remorse and weight on his soul, because of the things he had done in the past as Angelus. Even when you're gloriously happy, you can still have a tiny bit of sadness in your heart that you can't quite get away from. In contrast, when having sex with Buffy, there is a pivotal moment (ahem) when the brain is finally able to blank out and fully be in the moment with her, and in that moment everything is like a whiteout of pure bliss. He forgets the baggage, he forgets everything but being with Buffy. It's a really beautiful thought... until we see the horrible outcome. I think Joss Whedon once said that (just like all the other emotional teenage struggles he tackled in this show) he wanted to explore this idea that girls often get "punished" for having sex, especially in horror films. I found this quote:
"What we basically wanted to show was a horror movie version of the idea of ‘I sleep with my boyfriend and now he doesn’t call me... and also he’s killing hookers in alleys."
Lol. Brutal.
Seriously though, this is a truly amazing season, and I cannot wait to watch your reactions to the rest of it!
Yes we have! Definitely one of my top episodes of all time (and there's more to come this season). I knew you wouldn't be ready haha. Seeing you react to the Angelus reveal was so thrilling and your disbelief was hilarious, it should become a meme 😂 - I still remember when Angel changed and how it really broke me as kid. I didn't understand the full weight of the twist but I do remember feeling an intense sadness for Buffy and the fact that it wasn't just monsters and goofy jokes anymore. I had to "grow up" and deal just like Buffy did. And not all reactors like Angel these days but I’m so glad I was fond of him, cause otherwise you miss out on experiencing those complex emotions along with Buffy. I always feel a heaviness in my heart when I watch this episode especially the scene at Angel's place. The cruelty in his words shock me every time. SMG kills the emotional scenes but also major props to David Boreanaz for making such clear a distinction in his portrayal of Angel and Angelus. Just a top tier episode on all levels but still not my #1 from Season 2 :) Great reaction though Thor, I enjoyed every minute! PS: When you said “I think you guys are a little preoccupied with a priceless expression, and not a dead expression” I was rolling. Just set up competency course in villainy already! hahaha
"Not a dead expression!" rofl
Best moment of this episode is the rocket launcher. It is just epic.
With a close follow up with Oz and Willow in the car. Who would not fall in love with Oz' words or Willows smile?
So for my 14th birthday, my mom bought me The Angel Chronicles, Vol. 1-3. Each volume is the novelization of three episodes where Angel plays a big part. Volume 3 is the novelization of Surprise, Innocence, and an upcoming episode, Passion. And to this day, the part that sticks with me from the novelization of this episode isn't a line about Buffy or Angel. It's this moment with Willow and Xander (and yes, I absolutely went and grabbed this off one of my bookcases so I could see if I remembered the line right and, yes, I still have all my Buffy books and yes, I did remember it right, lol):
Cordelia shrugged. "Well, my car is--"
"It might need to be bigger." Xander looked again at Willow.
She was steely-eyed. "No problem. I'll get Oz. He has a van."
That information--and the harsh way she delivered it--was not lost on Xander. It wasn't that he had a van; it was what they could do inside a van. She was putting him on notice that she was moving on.
That last line about putting him on notice. That one line always sticks with me. That and the moment earlier in the episode where Xander realizes that something is off about Angel. If you ever get a chance to read any of the episode novelizations, I definitely recommend them. The authors do great at getting in the characters' heads so you get to see what they might be thinking, etc. Or actually any of the novels. I'm going to stop now though because this is so long already and it'll get worse if I start throwing out book titles because I've got plenty that I'd excitedly recommend if I don't stop myself. I'm so glad you've reached this arc!
Edit: One of my favorite moments is the end with Joyce and Buffy. Joyce can tell that Buffy's not okay and that something is wrong but also that she doesn't want to talk about it so she just holds her. Meanwhile in the background, the musical they're watching is playing the most fitting song/lyrics, "Good night, my love...." Also the pain and anger Giles is clearly feeling as he makes his stand and sticks by Buffy when he tells Jenny to get out. Honestly, I just love this episode so much.
Good point about the bad security at the military. It got me thinking though and this was recorded before 2001. There were so many changes to security after 9/11 sometimes I forget how things used to be. Im not saying it would be this easy-going..but its actually not crazy at all and could definitly have happened..
Im not american but im from a military town in a western country plus i remember the 90s.
Its weird how all the extra security features in society have become so normalized that one forgets how nice and easy-going the west used to be.
My 2 fave moments are the rocket launcher scene which shows just how much of a badass buffy is and also the entire scene at the military base especially willow and oz in the van.
My fav part is willow knew from when she first saw buffy face what her and angel did.
Buffy with a bazooka will always be one of the iconic badass moments of the series. There will be bigger moments later, but I'm pretty sure this will be on everyone's list. There's also the list of most hilarious moments, best Buffy quips & puns, & heartbreaking moments.
The logic of Jenny’s family is super faulty. You curse someone with a soul (which makes them stop killing people), because they murdered your family. But you make a loophole in your curse so that the same monster will… lose their soul and become a killing monster again? He’s not exactly being tortured if he turns evil. You’re only hurting innocent people.
Yeah no matter how you look at it, it's a stupid curse. Like I get that they made it their mission to watch over Angel and insure his prolonged suffering, but nothing would torture Angelus more than Angel living a happy life
First, they (the gypsies) weren't interested in stopping his killing, they wanted him to suffer for as long and as deeply as possible. He has no mystic restraint on his ability to harm others, although his soul and his violent past would definitely push him to not harm/kill others where normally a vampire would easily do so without much cause or any restraint.
I see two ways to explain the curse, both which could apply here.
First is the general idea of how curses and whatnot work in fairy tales and myth. There's always a catch, something you might consider to be impossible, or very unlikely, but a simple thing which undoes the curse. It's more of a "you don't get something for nothing" affair where a terrible fate imposed on someone must have a simple counter, and the trick for the one making the curse is to arrange the counter to be as difficult / undesirable for the cursed to do either by the nature of the curse itself (as in Angel's case) or have it be a rare occurrence not a difficult one. The gypsies want Angel to suffer, but the nature curses requires there to be a way to "easily" stop it, so thus he is no longer cursed if he can be truly happy which in general is quite difficult due to how much his past tortures him when he has his soul. Also, alternatively, "true love's kiss" is a common breaker of curses, and in Angel's case it is just the M-rated version of that.
Second way to look at it is by thinking about how the curse keeps going, for over 100 years the curse has gone on, holding his soul in his body while he remembers all the bad things he's done, I could see it making sense that the pain Angel feels is literally keeping the spell going, and that if he stopped being tortured by those memories, not only would the gypsy's revenge fall flat, but the actual fuel for the spell would be gone, and thus it breaks. Thus the "condition" of perfect happiness may not so much chosen as it is a realization of what it would take to break the trap, once Angel had a source of happiness that could make him forget / not feel the pain of all he's done the curse has lost it's power source and falls apart.
Being a vampire though does mean that Angel lives forever (barring being killed by one of a vampire's few weaknesses) so the unlikely event of him finding the happiness that would break is curse is far greater than for a mortal being. The gypsies at the time probably weren't thinking hard enough (or care) that the curse would eventually be broken, just that they exacted vengeance on the being that harmed them so, by having him suffer longer than anyone ever had before. The later generations would obviously still try to keep the curse going as long as possible though, as no one wants Angel to revert, which is why Jenny is there, to watch for "danger signs" and intervene to keep the curse going.
@@cookie_of_nine Remember he killed and turned that guy with a soul.
The soul was to curse Angelus. It stopped serving it's purpose when Angel and Angelus were BOTH happy.
Been waiting for this one!
I can understand haha, this one is EPIC
@@nickreacts6394 Insofar as the show set out to depict the struggles of coming of age as a young woman, this episode is brilliant. I won't speak for other girls, but when I was a kid, "losing your virginity" was made into a very big deal, and it was a very real fear that a guy would pretend to be one person in order to take that from you, and then become a completely different person after you'd given it up. Angel turning on Buffy as soon as she loses her virginity to him is a very relatable fear to me (although I've come to view the whole thing differently as an adult).
The curse must have pretty high standards for "true happiness", or Angel would've lost his soul the first time he almost peed his pants and just barely reaching a toilet in time.
😅😅😅
This episode is bonkers amazing! Oz in the van is such a parallell to the scene with Giles and Buffy, both men being peak loveable in an important time for the person they love.
When Angelus killed a gypsy girl, the girls family cursed angel and gave him back his soul. When angel and buffy slept together he lost his soul and became Angelus again. So what buffy did see of angels death was true.
This is where things get interesting. I enjoy your reactions and am really looking forward to everything you've still to see. I'm glad I've tuned in early in your Buffy verse journey.
It's not that Angel was not truly happy with Buffy, it's more that he could never forget the Guilt for what he had done, even when he was happy. And it took a very... _specific_ moment during that pasionate cuddle for him to forget it for an instance... if you catch my drift.
Afterglow is the turning point, not orgasm
had to add, this is more of a reverse possession: the angel that we and buffy know and love is both the demon that took over the person's body after death AND the soul that was the person before death. This Angel (often called Angelus) is just the demon
Happiness is not a strong enough word that will break the curse. It is the unadulterated bliss in the arms of the one person you know for absolutely certain is the person you want to hold forever; the joyous truth in which they reciprocate and share with only you the beauty of the timeless moment, where it is you and her, the world with all its horrors and wonders fall away and not even space and time mean anything; you with your soul and her with her soul feel linked together in an eternal bond of pure love. Also it's not about sex, it was never about the sex.
there's so many layers to this episode - the unsureness of losing your virginity being met with sadism and dismissal, coupled with the act itself being what lost angel his soul - giles understanding what "one true moment of utter happiness" meant with regards to buffy and angel and using all of it as a means of discussing purity culture. angel "loses his immortal soul" after having sex. it's so well written..!
Angel being all nasty to Buffy was one of the hardest things David Boreanaz had to do. He and Sarah Michelle Gellar have a really great on screen chemistry, because they are such good friends in real life. David always was comforting Sarah Michelle, when she had to cry through these scences. The hardest one was, where Angels breaks up with Buffy. SMG had a breakdown and was crying for more than 20 minutes, but David stayed with here and tried to make her feel good again.
One moment of pure joy takes Angel's soul. His & Buffy spending the night together was that moment of pure joy. That is the curse of Jenny's family. Soo..sad all around😢
There are a few eps in BTVS that are really important, and elevate the series to a new level. Prophecy Girl is an obvious one, When She Was Bad and Halloween are clearly important, but this one is the first true God Tier ep for me; the first real evidence of why this little basic cable genre show is still so loved and studied and obsessed over a generation later.
Fave moment: 17:00 There’s so much great acting in this ep, from Boreanaz and Landau joyfully chewing the scenery to Tony Head’s masterful final monologue in the car to SMG’s work throughout; but the performance that always blows me away is Alyson Hannigan’s, especially in the van scene. Watch her look when Oz says “I can wait”. The first of several times that just watching her face reacting to something is one of the highlights of the show. God she’s good.
So something to keep in mind when considering things to do with Angel and his soul and all of that, is that Angel has always been possessed by a demon. At least it’s been the case since he was turned into a vampire. When he got his soul back the demon didn’t go away. It was more of a battle of wills from that point on between the demons and his human soul, his conscience, his sense of right and wrong and I have shame end of compassion. What has happened now is that the human soul has once again been taken from him leaving nothing but the demon to sort of pilot his body and mind. In a metaphysical sense, he is truly an entirely different and autonomous person from the person he was with a soul. From a worldly physical perspective he is the same person, just without a conscience, without compassion or empathy. The truest sociopath. One truth I hope you hold onto despite what you might hear from some corners of the fandom is that angel with a soul is truly divorced from the actions of angel without a soul.
My fourth favorite episode (I should really get back to finishing that list as I am only officially on episode thirty-nine overall).
Everything Angelus does in this episode is exactly what Angel said Angelus was like in _Lie to Me._
Think about this also, The Judge wanted, and could have burned Spike and Dru, but Angelus "is clean. There is no humanity in him." So he is even more evil than most evil creatures.
Willow has a right to be upset about Xander being with Cordelia, but not a right to be angry about it. As long as she never asked him out he is free to ask out whoever he wants, whether a right decision or a wrong one. And at this point she has already brought Oz as a date to Buffy's party, so not only does it seem odd to be angry (not hurt, but angry), but Oz is also correct in calling Willow "empty" for trying to kiss him in revenge of what Xander is perfectly allowed to do. And Xander shouldn't have to feel guilty for Willow having other justifiable reasons for not liking Cordelia.
Angel being happy/sex wasn't the reason he lost his soul. The Scoobies believe that because Giles asks Buffy how it happened, which makes Buffy assume it was sex and she asks Jenny "so it was me" to which Jenny confirms by saying, "I think so." But because Buffy is driving the actions and conversation of that scene, Jenny never explains to the group that Enyos tells her earlier the ultimate and real cause was because, "one moment where the soul that we restored no longer plagues his thoughts, and that soul is taken from him." Meaning when Angel feels guilt he loses his soul. In this particular instance, Buffy made him happy enough to not feel guilt. But anything could make him feel guilty enough to lose his soul.
11:46 is the reason I don't blame Jenny the way the Scoobies do. Gypsies are a closed knit family and society. She was more than likely breaking enough rules just by dating Giles "You thought you are Jenny Calendar now?! You are still Janna, of the Kalderash people! A Gypsy." I don't blame her for being torn between two families. Plus kicking her out of the Scoobies is kicking out the one person with any information that could help.
On a rational level I agree that Willow has no rights to be angry with Xander,but think about this for a second:not only Willow has a decades-lasting unresolved crush on Xander(which would make her mad seeing him with anybody else _even_ if it was someone she liked probably),but getting together with someone usually implies making that person part of your core friends group. Now..Cordy has already hanged out with the Scoobies,either because she was in danger and Buffy had to save her or simply because they are school mates,but it's a completely different perspective to have Cordy be *actually* part of the gang as Xander's girlfriend. It potentially means having to see her much more often AND seeing her kissing Xander or sharing words and/or gestures of affection with him. Now..we know that's not very likely due to their temper,but it COULD happen and THAT would be a real torture for poor Willow!
SPOILER
I know this for sure because this is *exactly* what happened to me the moment Spike developed a crush on Buffy. I had *always* hated Spike,but as long he was a Villain and nothing more than that,I could bare his presence because I was *allowed* to hate him *and* because most of the Scoobies were too,Buffy included. But the moment Buffy started to smooch him and having sex with him and making him part of the gang *THAT'S* when his presence became literally *UNBEARABLE* to me...AND I DON'T EVEN HAVE A CRUSH ON BUFFY!!! I SIMPLY HATE SPIKE!!!>O
@@Nicamon And your comment is the reason she has the right to be upset. Cordelia has been rotten to Willow for years I mentioned this above when I said, "Xander shouldn't have to feel guilty *for Willow having other justifiable reasons for not liking Cordelia."* But what she say to Xander in anger is about not being chosen by him romantically. But since she never asked him and since he doesn't seem interested in her that way, he has the right to be with whoever he wants whether others consider it wrong or not, and as said she can be upset, but her reasons for being angry at him "rather [being] with her than [Willow]" are unfounded considering she is starting a relationship with Oz
@@Buffy8Fan Well,yes,but no,because as I said,her crush with Xander is"unresolved"which means that _it doesn't matter_ she's currently with someone else..her feelings for Xander _are still there_ under the surface(not even that much considering what she asked Oz in the van!;-P)and ok,probably Xander doesn't know/ guesses it,but this doesn't make it any less true. That's why I said that Willow would _probably_ get mad even if Xander dated someone she didn't dislike. Because,as irrational,childlish and unfair as it is,it makes perfectly sense to get hurt because you haven't been chosen...and Xander KNOWS Willow has a thing on him..he said it explicitely while he was possessed by the hyena and he could tell when he made the ice-cream move on her so now he can't just"fall from the clouds"(as we say in Italian,I don't know if you say it in English too)just because Willow has a brand new date.X-P
@@Nicamon Unresolved or not, it doesn't give her the right to be angry at him, only upset that she has unresolved feelings that he doesn't return. And whether or not Xander knows about her feelings still doesn't mean anything if neither of them ever talked about it with each other. Xander still had the right to date Cordelia, and Willow getting angry at him when she had never talked to him about her feelings or these issues only makes things more strained when she yells at him instead of talking to him. Being upset expresses her emotions in a healthy way. Anger is a toxic emotion that could make romance (Oz) and friendship (Xander) relationship toxic.
@@Buffy8Fan I'm not saying she's _right_ only that what she does is _understandable._
Oh, The Judge burns humanity out via touch, it happens without choice, he couldn't burn Angelous, he is truly evil, possibly one of the most evil creatures ever, he actually has no humanity in him, only a few vampires are like that. The Master for example.
What I love about this episode and the last one is this build up about this solo blue man group making us think he is the big bad evil of the season when in fact, all along, as a secondary narrative, it's actually Angel.
I've never seen such a serious reaction to this episode, love the way you appreciate and recognize how game changing it is. This is where things get really different in this show, they're always dealing with monsters and creatures that kill or hurt people but is not easy to deal with them, there's always a conflict (Amy's mother being the villain, Chris and his brother, Ford's motives) but for Buffy and her friends to see Angel turn against them, someone you trusted and cared about, despite the fact they know is not him because Angel's soul is gone and this is Angelus, it's awful, heartbreaking and really scary. Just like you said he could've killed her very easily but he didn't, he wants to hurt her, to make her suffer.
I don't want to get ahead of myself.... but this may be the best season of television to ever exist
Everything has already been said in previous comments. Let me just add the DB is at his best when playing Angelus imo. Happy birthday, Buffy!
pretty much all the commentary from 3:40 on had me laughing almost Non-Stop. A few times I did it was because of the refreshingly solid grasp of serious moments. Best example is I caught the huge emotional manipulation by Willow on Xander when she found out about him and Cordelia but I hadn't really thought about how mature it was to be like, okay I'm setting this aside, we have bigger issues. And now that you pointed it out I can really get a sense of how strong a mirror it is for episode 12 last season between Xander and Buffy.
On the connection between Drusilla and Angelus, I mean he did torture her into Insanity, so that had to have created some kind of emotional connection which can affect what you see.
On Angelus and how much he is Angel I quote him from episode 7 "the demon gets your body but it doesn't get your soul, no conscience no remorse it's an easy way to live." That suggests that whatever this is is a mix of the demon and whatever Angel is without a conscience. A lot of people say that makes him fully responsible but I disagree. There's a reason the insanity plea is a thing. If you have brain damage and become a serial killer I don't consider you the same person you were before said brain damage. Let's face it, that's the part of the brain that gets destroyed when they do. Even worse because he became a demon by somebody else's choice (Darla), it's more like somebody hitting him in a bat in just the right spot, intentionally. Same time the average person doesn't go around eating people, nor are they necessarily capable in the usual sense, so there's definitely some demon aspects to this.
On the happiness of ice skating, I have no idea how it works exactly but my best guess is that for a second, there was like "you know maybe I did enough and maybe I can be at peace after all these years, especially since we're probably going to die over this judge thing anyway and hey I found love so why not? But as I said, just a guess I'm sure anybody could comment about that theory.
So welcome to the next flavor of Buffy. I liken Buffy to ice cream the last season was vanilla an often underrated flavor and the basis of everything, I've been debating what to call this season, I'm going to go with Neapolitan, if anyone has a better suggestion feel free.
"A lot of people say that makes him fully responsible but I disagree. There's a reason the insanity plea is a thing. If you have brain damage and become a serial killer I don't consider you the same person you were before said brain damage."Exactly. I don't get people saying that Angel&Angelus are the same person(both audience and Xander 😒💢)but never applying that same logic to Wolf-Oz,for example.Just because Angelus can talk and reason like a man and he has _some_ common traits with Angel doesn't mean they're _literally_ the same person.Expecially because Angel can't just _decide_ not to become Angelus or to"snap out of it"! It's not even like when you're considered responsible for an accident or a rape happened while you were drunk because you can _choose_ not to drink,but Angel can't _choose_ not to be cursed! I get feeling _partially_ responsable for whatever Angelus does,but never 100%!>___<
"I liken Buffy to ice cream the last season was vanilla an often underrated flavor and the basis of everything, I've been debating what to call this season"🤔That's an interesting parallel...I wonder what flavours would _I_ associate the seasons of"Buffy"...it probably won't be easy for me since I truly like very few ice-cream flavours,but I could try...;-9
SPOILER
S1 = Vanilla. One of the flavours I like the most and at the same time,one of the most"basic"one.(Thanks for the suggestion!;-D)
S2 = Coffee. *A LOT* of people love it,I HATE IT WITH BURNING PASSION!X-PPP
S3 = Stracciatella. Basically,vanilla,but even better because it has pieces of chocolate that makes everything more interesting!Like a certain F character...;-]
Here it becomes difficult because I already mentioned the only 2 flavours I *regularly* take...
S4 = Strawberry. I used to like it when I was little,then I stopped. Now,this is not the reason I chose it..I chose it because S4 has a thing that I like VERY MUCH(it's the only season in which we get _both_ O and T ;-3)but overall it's a bit"boring"and not _that_ interesting apart from the plot bits revolving around _those_ 2 characters and a couple of *really,really,REALLY good episodes!* 🤩🤩(You probably _KNOW_ what I'm talking about!😉)
S5 = Lemon. Another flavour I used to take when I was little and then I stopped. I chose to associate S4 with Strawberry and S5 with Lemon because in S5 there are some heavier things that happen and there's a _certain character_ that can leave an annoying feeling in your mouth,just like a sour flavour!;-S
S6 = This is *very* difficult. Since we're talking about _ice-cream_ specifically,I'd say chocolate. I like chocolate *VERY MUCH* in many forms,but NOT as an ice-cream flavour,so this for me represents a season that _still_ has _some_ good things in it(the T character!!🤍),but overall it's just very annoying!X-P
S7 = Oh,gosh...what's a flavour that's even _worse_ than coffee?!?!X-P
EDIT: I didn't know what kind of flavour"Neapolitan"was(funny,considering the fact I'm Italian!😅)and,if I understood correctly,it's not _a_ flavour..it's a 3-balls ice-cream with Vanilla,Strawberry _and_ Chocolate. So basically you think S2 is a mix of S1,S4 _and_ S6?!?;-D
@@Nicamon I kinda love this comment 🤣
Okay my turn SPOILERS walk away Thor!
S3 stracciatella as well, because it's perfect.
S4 moose tracks, it always felt confusing to me but has some amazing elements as you said.
S5 mint chip cookie dough also because almost everyone loves it and while parts of it I love my body somehow rejects it (sensitivity to mint, not sure what it is exactly about That season and there's some great things that I had issues especially the soundtrack like it has the least songs of every season and for some reason that doesn't vibe with me emotionally)
S6 probably the minority but I love it but then for me my favorite part of stories is psychology. I call it Rocky road (the admittedly I'm thinking fudge and not ice cream there).
S7 wildly up and down for me, pistachio I love it one day I hate it the next no idea why. On chocolate have you ever tried making it with bar chocolate instead, it's a very different flavor. I will also never go back to powdered chocolate milk/hot chocolate ever again. Although I make an ice cream like Häagen-Dazs and my favorite version is actually a mixed berry syrup I make for pancakes that I just add some Rosemary to for contrast. This is weird I'm literally editing a video for dessert right now. French silk to be specific. Basically a thick moose pie.
@@barbarabaker1457 I had to go search for most of these flavours...you have very complicated ice-cream flavours compared to the ones *I* know!!😂😅
P.S. I guess your Stracciatella was S3?You forgot to put the number!;-P
@@Nicamon Edited. Also yeah, both sides of my family cook a lot and when I know a food I Really get to know it.
@@barbarabaker1457 Oh,cool!😃
Does the actor playing The Judge look familiar? He also played Luke in season 1, the Masters sidekick. (I love when shows do that 🙂)
Anyways....the show is amazing here on out. I mean it was great before but now it's got some spice.
Oh, that's why he sounded familiar. I don't think I ever knew that.
8:25 wait till you find out what he did to Drucilla
I think that the most important description of this curse is not what Jenny said when Buffy rushed on her, but what Jenny's uncle said, and especially that sentence : "one moment where this soul we gave him no longer tortures him...."
The point is, being happy with someone is not enough, you have to be so happy that you just forget everything else that should be bothering you. That you are at peace. And when you have to deal with the guilt of torturing and killing dozens (hundreds ?) of people... It's definitely not an easy goal to achieve.
Drucilla can see things. Drucilla is psychic and crazy. When buffy and angel had their thing. The curse that the gyspies put on angel gave him his soul when he become happy he became Angelus again.
I think it's cool that the actors playing Giles and Spike both have fake accents. Anthony Stewart Head coached James Marsters on a Cockney accent, since Marsters is an American, and Head's native accent is Cockney. So Marsters puts on a fake Cockney accent, and Head affects RP English.
. . . Spiffy?
And so it begins 😈
I agree. This is the best episode...So far.
I love this episode so much! I mean, yes, it hurts, but it's so good! I won't answer your questions, because either you already got the answer or it'd be a spoiler XD
And you can of course see Whedon's hand in this one. Maybe you want to hold on to your chair when you see "Written and directed by Joss Whedon". Just saying...
Favourite moment, probably the rocket luncher. That's a scene you don't forget! On the other hand, when Angel says "Love you too" to Buffy, I kinda want to strangle him XD
How about another live stream after episode 17? That'd be fun!
The episode that made this series a hit..oh it was Buffys parts down south that turned Angel evil.
It’s against all laws of God and man - it’s Cordelia!!!! 🤣
This is so fun watching you react to this series! I never missed an episode. You are in for quite the ride when I think of all happens down the line!
This is a awesome episode 💯 Have a wonderful weekend Bro 🙏🏼
"What's that do?"
*dies*
😂😂😂
Yeah, as good as this episode is, it's not the best of the season, IMHO. Yeah, this season is just that good.
"No, we can't have Angel turn evil...."
Yeah, about that...
It's funny because I had thought the Buffy/Angel romance was so boring back in the late 90s when this show first aired but Angel going evil midseason was one of the coolest twists on tv at the time that no one saw coming.
The only problem with these reacts is how long it takes to get the next one
This show is so great at portraying events that have huge impact on the characters.
You're afraid for them, because you know they can be affected by so many things in their lives. The Buffy characters have vulnerability that few shows try to portray.
i've seen this episode three or four time in my rewatches... this is heartbreaking...
Ahh time for innocence, the episode that made us lose ours and realize Joss whedon doesn't want us to have nice things. 😠
I live that you can immediately tell Angel from Angelus from that slight shift in his tone of voice. Always thought it was a nice touch to help ones mind make the distinction
Welcome to the „Fallen Angel“ Trilogy. Some of the best Episodes of Buffy are waiting for you! Have Fun and despair! 😎
Spike in Wheelchair is now the Brain, Drusilla is the Spirit and Angel is the dark, twisted Heart of the Gang. A Mirror to Giles, Willow & Xander.
Oz is wonderful, because he is the only sane person in a World of Weirdness. If you wonder, his full name is Daniel „Oz“ Osborn. Maybe he is related to the Spider-Man Family Osborn 😈.
The curse was always a silly concept, but to rationalize it, Angel doesn’t allow himself to fully believe he’s worthy of love..and that prevents him from experiencing “true” happiness with Buffy. Sharing intimacy with someone evens the playing field, allowing for mutual vulnerability and comfort. He was able to completely let go in that moment, forgetting every past sin.
I have always loved the metaphor of the “perfect boyfriend changing overnight” after having sex. I’m sure it’s an idea that helped a lot of us get through high school, watching Buffy herself endure it.
You're soo innocent Thor! I love it :D
This is an unkillable demon....
This is an unkillable demon on Buffy..... *gets blown to smitherenes with a rocket launcher*
.......Any questions?
Oh boy, strap in, you’re in for a hell of a ride. Buffy just gets better and better.
One of the best episodes ever, the twist and the plot are brillantly written, the best of the season will come :)
Things are about to get very interesting
That episode made me cry.
I know I'm almost a year late but, nice commentary, but a bit off. Normally you get everything but in this case two things bug me.
1. Angel. As he said in the previous episode, he never looked further than the present with Buffy. This was a clue. He definitely loved her, was happy, but in his mind he was still not ready to see a future together. That changed when she said she loved him, saw a future, and then gave herself completely. And every man knows the peaceful serene feeling you get just afterwards, when the whole world is great, and the two of you can face everything together. That was the moment that broke the curse.
Which brings me to
2. Angelus is not possessed. No matter how much we like Angel, he was a vampire. So, a dead body with a demon steering it. Only he was cursed with the human soul which used to occupy that body, which felt horror and remorse for everything the demon had done, and thus inflicting pain and remorse on the demon. When the curse lifted, the soul was freed, leaving only the vampire, really angry about all those feelings everyone made him feel. Which brings me to
3. Bad guys not immediately killing their nemesis. Yes, if they did, movies and series would be a lot shorter. But I do think this series really goes out of its way to establish why. Spike likes to make things grand, make a show of it. It has to be an achievement. Drusilla is very powerful, but crazy, thanks to Angelus, so she loses focus quite often, especially when she gets excited. And Angelus? It is well established that he loves to torture those he focuses on. His mark should almost beg him for release, for him to feel he did a good job. No quick snapping of necks. Which brings me to
4. You focus solely on the bad guys, but what about the good guys? Buffy defeats Angel, but she doesn't kill him. Yes, because of feelings, but that is exactly why the bad guys don't finish her off, albeit because of different feelings. She also lets him go instead of trapping him, even though she knows he is a psycho who loves torturing, especially by killing those around you. Why should she get a free pass for that mistake? Just saying you should have mentioned that as well. It is not just the bad guys that let their characters get the better of them.
Oh, and there's no way Angel can take control over his body again because he's not there. He's dead.
First of all: welcome to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Everything you saw until now was the prologue. Now you are watching the real thing.
Secondly, as someone who saw it when it was originally aired, I would say that the history of TV for me is split in two: before this episode, and after this episode. I've never seen anything like it on television before. After that, everything was possible.
"First of all: welcome to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Everything you saw until now was the prologue. Now you are watching the real thing." I hate when people say that.😓This is one of the parts I like _the least_ of the whole show and I *LOVE* "Buffy" as a show overall,so no..I disagree..this is not THE real thing. It's just a *part* of the real thing,just as S1 was!
While the show as a whole continues to get better as the seasons progress, I think the rocket launcher is the single most iconic scene in the series. Second most iconic is the opening sequence of the next episode, iirc. The actor who played the Judge also played Luke in season 1 (he also appears in an episode of Chuck, which I think more people should react to).
OK, looks like I was wrong about the placement of the 2nd most iconic scene. It is just a throw away run and stumble with a vamp with no dialog, just an exchange of changing facial expressions, and I could swear it was intercut with Xander and Cordelia making out in the car, but now I can’t remember what episode it opens.
Aha! It was season 1 episode 12, Cordelia was making out with someone else.
...get an "absolute shark of a character who goes for the kill". Well the Master pretty much went for the jugular - literally.
@Saiyasha: I always saw that moment between Joyce and Buffy as Joss Whedon playing on the concern that, especially for girls, when you lose your virginity, that the change in you “shows” and your parents always know. The thought that those closest to you can sense that something is - not “dirty” but just different.
The Angel - Buffy "morning after talk" is still tough to watch and I've seen this show when it started. Dru and Angel obviously have a connection but her visions aren't necessarily just about Angel. Though it is curious that Spike and Dru ended up in Sunnydale. Was it just a coincidence or did Dru kinda lead them there.
At the start of the episode, Angel was getting kicked out of the building. Angelus had returned
I'm really happy you're watching buffy. The series has a lot of growth especially the characters. Spike is the best character of the show. His story arc is my favorite.
(Continuing my comment about Angel being a gentleman on the last video) Angelus is a duche nozzle.
I agree with your idea of capturing Angel in general, but practically - and then what? Keep him where? Who's going to guard him 24/7 in case Drusilla decides to get him out?
The car scene between Giles and Buffy is so important, every teen needs that kind of respectful, supportive presence in their life. And "I'll just let it burn." - Joyce has to be so lost in how to help her daughter.
The rocket launcher is a brilliant idea. It's pretty much in the same vein as Buffy being revived by CPR messing with the slayer magic, and these clashes of ancient magic and modern times have so much potential for shenanigans.
Then and then what isn't the point its that they never considered it, just like they never considered find a way to make angel human again. It just never occurred to them.