**GILES HOW COULD YOU?!!** Buffy the Vampire Slayer S3 Ep 12 Reaction FIRST TIME WATCHING "Helpless"
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
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Was anyone else losing their mind at this point in the Season?? (don't even get me started on next week's episode...)
I'll take you up on the different perspective of the Watchers Council challenge. I'm going to make sure I don't have any spoilers, and some of this is based on educated guesses, so other people's interpretations may vary.
So far, the information Giles has dropped about the Watchers has shown that as long as there have been Slayers, there have been Watchers, and presumably a Watchers Council that oversees things. The information we got about Kendra (given up by her parents at a young age to be raised and trained by her Watcher) makes it seem like the Council has some way of identifying some potential Slayers at an early age, but we can tell from both Buffy and Faith's experiences that other Slayers aren't identified until they actually become The Slayer. Either way, the Council sends a Watcher to train and direct The Slayer in her duties to fight evil and prevent various apocalypses - so the Watcher controls the Slayer and the Council controls the Watcher, all nice and neat, until the Slayer is killed... and they don't say what happens to her Watcher after that.
The whole power structure of the Watchers Council is based on two main things: all the supernatural information and contacts they've built up over who knows how long, and all the supernatural power that rests in the form of one teenage girl (ignoring Faith right now because 2 Slayers is an anomaly). It's easy to control the information and contacts, businesses do it all the time. But how do you control a super-powered teenage girl?
First, you find the girl early and strictly train her to do her duty without questioning anything, which is what they did with Kendra. If that doesn't work, then you find the girl right after she gets her powers and you set her Watcher up as the "wise sage"/"kindly wizard" guy who teaches her all about her destiny and guides her in the fight against evil, and that works well in the beginning as she's learning what she can do with her super powers. But teenage girls grow up and get confident about what they can do, and that can threaten their control over her, right?
The Watchers Council somewhere along the way figured out what drugs were effective to make a Slayer weak, and maybe in the beginning they did it because they had a Slayer that became insane or evil and they had to keep her from hurting anyone until they could decide what to do with her. But they eventually figured out they could make up this "test" a Slayer had to pass, and they could administer this test when they decided a Slayer might be old enough to think about why she should have to follow what the Council told her to do, like Buffy becoming a legal adult at 18 years old.
If the Slayer dies during the test - oh well, there will be a new Slayer called. If the Slayer survives - she either is convinced she needs to learn more because she almost died, or she now knows the Watchers Council has ways of making her powerless and it would be better to stay on their good side by doing what they want. And if it totally pisses her off like what happened with Buffy... well, most Slayers don't live long enough to see their 20s and then they can start over with a new Slayer.
This season improved the quality, this episode is the scariest of the season, great performances by Sarah and Anthony
The next episode is next level. 😂💕
@@Kayjee17
Interesting...I see the Council as an archaic group of old, white men, who’ve lost touch with the real world...Sound familiar? Even the initial female watcher turned out to be corrupt, probably caused by working under that British, misogynistic culture of the council.
Thor, while you were wondering where Faith, the Scooby Gang, et al, were was extremely frustrating....How did the episode open? Where the hell was Angel?!!? As for not being able to climb a fence, that seemed like lazy writing, unless the serum made her weaker than if she were mortal...Otherwise, it didn’t make sense. You’re right, Thor, from all of her training, even without her Slayer strength, Buffy should have muscle memory @ the very least....
Giles in episode 7 : "You have no respect for me, or the job I perform."
Episode 12 : "My job is to poison you."
Cordelia quickly saying "of course" when Buffy asks her to drive her home is one of my favourite moments. The Watchers saying they're fighting a war but Buffy (and Faith) are their only real assets just sums them up.
It was a real abused woman moment. The moment where you don't care how much do or don't like the person you realize that there are circumstances bigger then this right now and you just have to get moving.
One of my fav Cordelia moments too. She's not even really with the group anymore and she immediately just says of course without question.
"how did he have time to develop that many"
They're Polaroids. This was the 90s. You click the button and the picture prints out immediately. I miss my old camera
I came to the comments to see if anyone answered that.
Haha, I totally yelled “IT’S A POLAROID!” At the screen. Ahhh, youth.
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 me too !
Don't forget waving it around to get the picture to come through "faster".
@@shercahn About the waving thing, it's a common trope in fiction, but is it founded on scientific proves, or is it just a popular belief ?
I love how excited you were for an episode about Buffy and her dad, because that's exactly what this episode ends up being! "You have a father's love for the child" always makes me tear up.
Sarah Michelle Gellar's acting in this episode is phenomenal, especially in her scenes with Anthony Stewart Head.
the test made perfect sense when you realize the council consider the slayer as a tool (not even paying her), that they want to be able to control. when the risk of her growing up and less controllable, they try to kill her her to get a new young controllable slayer, and if not, at least they demonstrate their power over her.
re: not even paying her, i do want to point out that kendra's watcher raised and provided for her. the fact that buffy and faith get nothing from giles seems to a personal failing of his, not an attribute of the watcher's council as an organization.
@@sirmoonslosthismind I both agree and disagree - providing for someone that is under your control is not like paying them. one is tool maintenance, the second is what I meant when I said they don't pay her. I do agree that Giles should have maintained her.
If I recall, Elize Dushku was still under 18 until halfway through S3, so her time on set was limited until she was officially an adult.
Great episode. As for how Giles could do that to Buffy-it was literally part of his job and training. The fact that he rejected it to try to help her tells you a lot about his relationship with her.
Travers says it himself "You have a father's love for the child...."
"I wanted to see some good father/daughter moments..."
and you did.
FYI, Jeff Kober, who plays the demented vampire, was also a regular on "Kindred: The Embraced" which ran a few years before BTVS premiered-where he also played a vampire, although his character wasn't necessarily evil.
Bull. No excuse for Giles’ behavior.
@@jeanetteking434 I find it upsetting Buffy isn't allowed to keep her anger like Giles did with Angel.
Something that occurred to me while listening to your final thoughts: at first, it would seem like Giles and Buffy's relationship would be forever damaged because he betrayed her. But I do think in the end, because he helped her and sided with her, pretty much going against the Council's wishes, their relationship -- while forever changed -- is possibly even stronger and closer, because it's now kind of Buffy and Giles against the stupid Council. Emotionally, they will be an even stronger team... so long as Giles doesn't lie to her again.
And Buffy's "Bite me" reply is always perfect. 😊
I thought of it the shots as not "taking away her gift" but weakening her to the point she was weaker than a normal person. like it's something that would work on anyone to make them weeker.
Several factors are leading to the Watchers Council acting this way. They consider the slayer just as a tool, so if one dies, another one is called. And the date is chosen carefully, as a minor is much easier to control by the council than an adult. The slayer being killed during the Crucimentum is probably seen as a rather desirable side effect, as it would eliminate all but extraordinary slayers.
The only issue I have with this rationale is that the tradition obviously dates back before the 18th century. No one would have seen anyone over ten as a "minor" before that point, the concept didn't exist.
@@dipperjc it begun in the 8th century but there is nothing that states that it has to be 18 when the Slayer have to go through it, they probably changed the age as society changed the age it considered adulthood.
@@Henrik_Holst So.. would you quote sources on this please? The only canon source I know of is Quentin's, and he neither stated an origin century nor a flexibility in the time of administration.
@@dipperjc well this is strange, BuffyVerse cites Helpless as source for this but I can't find it in the transcript of the episode. He only says "centuries"...
@@dipperjc ok now I found their resoning, Quentin says "But it's been done this way for a dozen centuries" so 12x100=1200 years and 1998-1200 ~ year 800
I've always looked at this test as win-win for the Watchers' Council. Obviously if a Slayer passes it's a mark of her skill and intelligence, but the Watchers consider Slayers to be disposable (as a new one is immediately called), and younger Slayers are easier to control. It's no coincidence that the test takes place at the time a girl becomes legally able to make her own decisions (at least here in America). They don't want Slayers to have agency over their lives.
Yeah, and in a very mercenary way, if after a few years of training, if the Slayer can't pass their test, then they won't trust her to save the world, so a new Slayer should be called. It is dehumanizing, but might be horrifically practical, given how many times we see Buffy has to save the world.
But over time, what might have been practical became bureaucratic ceremony instead of practical test. If a Slayer has already been tested by the actual forces of evil, as Buffy has, then she shouldn't be artificially tested like this.
"I don't have faith in Buffy without her powers."
Well there's your problem right there.
The Watcher's Council is an institution created to keep the Slayers under control, to guide them yes but also to put a leash on them (to play Devil's advocate, few things would be more dangerous than a Salyer going rogue). If you remember how Kendra talked about her slayer's duty and her relationship with her Watcher, that's how things are supposed to go, according to the Watcher's Council.
Fanfic theory is that, given that slayers are basically disposable, when the rare slayer manages to survive to 18 the Council uses this to rid themselves of the dreaded "independent" slayer so as not to loose control and power.
@@sueg3650 I've never heard that theory before, but that is such an interesting theory, because ultimately that is something the council would be extremely disturbed by as she gets stronger, wiser and more independent year by year. There's a S5 episode that has sprung to mind that makes a lot more sense to me now that I'm unpacking that theory.
I think this episode is underrated considering exactly what happens in it.
Without saying it, the council show they want to control young girls. If slayers become too independent, the council knows this day will happen and if the slayers survive, they have a _willing to obey orders_ slayer in their camp, but if not the can mold a new young girl to their whim.
Giles betrays Buffy in every sense of the word. And yet, by the end, it becomes the turning point in their Watcher and Slayer dynamic into father/daughter figure dynamic. They both respect each other. She is a teenager, though, so that attitude has to be taken into account. They have had a father daughter bond but also not quite. Here's how I see it:
Before the episode, but until Quinton mentions Giles feels that way (the only good thing Quinton does) they don't even acknowledge it to themselves or each other, which is why Giles goes through with the test to begin with. He at the beginning of the episode is still thinking himself as more a Watcher than the father figure neither he nor Buffy realizes he is until Quinton opens his mouth and says. Giles "has a father's love for the child, and that is useless to the cause." Buffy wouldn't have allowed him the rag to clean her up if she didn't realize that, through Travers, about him.
Before this episode, the two of them were, from _Welcome to the Hellmouth_ until _Reptile Boy,_ figuring out how to get along as Watcher and Slayer. From there until this episode they have a father/daughter dynamic, but they don't acknowledge it openly. Buffy is still hoping before the end of this episode because she only gave up on Hank's slow giving up when he turned down the ice show she loved to do with him. Once Travers acknowledges it, they can see what has been there, but neither have acknowledged to each other or even themselves.
After _Revelations,_ Faith doesn't trust any member of the group, or the council as a whole so it makes sense she isn't in the episode.
18:54-19:05 It's like what The Master said about controlling pain in _Nightmares._ Zackery Kralik has controlled the pain therefore he doesn't fear crosses.
Buffy telling the guys about a reality check. You know talk about vampires and a vampire slayer's powers over Superman and kryptonite. 🤣
Buffy finding out Angel followed her before she knew who he was came off as too _Twilight_ for me. Never liked her "that's fine" reaction she has.
Giles gave Buffy muscles relaxers so Buffy is meant to be less strong than even standard humans.
David Fury was a freelance writer at the time of writing this episode, as well as a fan of the series. When he pitched the idea of Giles being fired for this episode, his intent was to rehire him at episode's end, but Joss latched onto the idea. As a freelance writer, David Fury panicked over getting Giles fired.
I love the tone of the climax of this episode. Closest to horror they get in my opinion.
perfect comment!
Don't know if anyone here have ever tried muscle relaxants but they are POWERFUL, one of our cats had to have them at some point and he lost all control of which muscled did what and basically became a huge blob on the floor slowly dripping around.
Here's my understanding for why Giles made this mistake. In his youth he was a dangerous rebel and it got people killed. He turned tot the Watcher's Council with fervor to get himself away from all that and find meaning in his life again. Which is why he's so dedicated to it, despite its flaws - because he sees the Council as having saved him.
He was to be a watcher like his father but he rebelled against it and eventually accepted his calling
Ironically enough after that Breaking Bad reference, Buffy’s dad’s name is Hank. 😂
19:22 “That’s a ton of photos; how did he even have time to develop that many?” We’ve reached a generation that doesn’t know what a Polaroid is. 😅
The Watcher's Council are definitely being antagonistic, but they're not being stupid exactly. They're the product of a tradition defined by treating young women as expendable weapons. Hence the Cruciamentum - if a slayer has lived this long (only a few years...) they're probably pretty powerful, starting to get independent and ask questions like 'why should I listen to the Watcher's Council anyway?' Well, if they die there's a new slayer who is in the fated part of the world that she's needed and who will be depending on the council to survive. And if they live, now there's the threat that they can take away her power and kill her.
This is why I love the writing so much. Often supernatural stories are seen as fantasy, fairytale. And humans are the good guys. In Buffy, the humans are flawed and, well, human. Giles betraying Buffy was the one thing nobody thought could happen and made the viewer feel personally betrayed. So of course they wrote it in.
This was the episode I most wanted you to watch when I saw you were starting this series
6:43 "I don't even know his name; Buffy's dad."
Walter White: "Hank. His name is Hank"
That Watcher's Council is so manipulative and controlling. I wish Giles just had stepped up to them immediately, regardless of the consequences.I love that despite her banter, Cordelia will do whatever to help her friends when they truly need her.
I love Cordelia in this episode. For as briefly as she was there. The "of course" without question and complete change in tone says a lot.
I've watched a lot of reactors watch this episode and it's really interesting seeing how each one reacts to Giles' betrayal. Lots of anger and lots of denial but always peppered with confusion. It's great!
I don't think they the serum drained her powers. It made her weak. She was supposed to become like a normal person, not like a slayer who just needed some Gatorade and a nap. It had muscle relaxants so I think her muscles just weren't properly functioning for her to make use of her training in a physical way
It may have been answered but the photos were taken using a Polaroid camera which prints and develops instant photos! But to take that many it would have taken some time!
Thor: That's not Giles. That can't be Giles.
Me: 👀😬
Well... you wanted father daughter dynamics! 😉 I don't think any of us anticipated THIS, though.
Yeah it's not just Buffy's super strength that's zapped, she's drained in general. Basically she's like a regular girl here who is also drained of normal energy.
Buffy did not literally loose just her superpowers. The muscle relexants made her weak independent on how much training she had been doing.
(BTW For building the most muscles you should train with your full strength intact.)
Muscle relaxants plus adrenal inhibitors, yes? Anyone would have trouble with physical activity on a cocktail like that.
Probably my favorite episode of the season.
The serum didn't just take away her powers, it made her weaker physically. The writers wanted Buffy to be the "typical" damsel in distress. Typical women in danger are portrayed as weak so she needed to be weak in every way to match that perception. Therefore, it made to sense to me that she couldn't do a lot of physical things. The betrayal by Giles always hits me in the gut. It's so awful. He grew up and was trained by the council, brainwashed by their ideals so I understand why he followed through (he felt he was doing his duty) but it still sucks so much. Also... the council is a POS and I hate them XD
Everybody else has pretty much covered how much the Watcher's Council sucks, so I'll just address the fence thing. I think you're right, Buffy never had to learn to do things the way women without superpowers learn to do them. Obviously women can climb fences, but like with so many other physical tasks, we use different strategies to do the things that men (and superpower!Buffy) can rely on upper body strength to accomplish: leverage, agility, lower body strength, endurance. Just speaking as a tomboy who spent a lot of my childhood and adolescence jumping fences into friends' backyards, we generally learn to use our legs to push along with using our arms to pull, and that requires proper footwear if you're gonna do it fast. Depowered Buffy needs sneakers, and she's wearing cute little boots with heels that probably have terrible traction.
true but this was not Buffy without just her Slayer powers this was Buffy injected with various drugs including muscle relaxants and if you have ever experience being exposed to those you would be amazed that she managed to even stand up.
@@Henrik_Holst They made the muscle relaxants just enough to take away her powers
@@alicequinn505 gotta be special ones that only exist in the Buffyverse cause out here in the real world that would not be possible (they relax the muscles as a whole so regardless of how powerful they just stop responding to input).
@@Henrik_Holst there are muscle relaxants that aren’t extreme. I have to take one several times a day due to a messed up shoulder and it barely seems to work. There are controlled and non controlled muscle relaxants as well. The controlled ones would give more credence what you are saying, which I am sure are the ones you are thinking about. The non controlled are more to take an edge off or loosen the muscle.
@@simgirl451 thanks for the info! However one would assume that the Watchers would use the kind that are bit above "barely seems to work" in order to incapacitate a Slayer 🙂
A great performance by Jeff Kober as the vampire Zachary Kralick. Writer David Fury named him after his very young nephew cuz he thought it sounded like a good name for a villain.
The test makes sense if you remember the conditions: slayers are going girls when they're called. They need the watchers to train and guide them. And if one dies, another one takes her place, no big deal. But if a slayer is smart and strong and capable enough to reach adulthood? She won't really need a watcher.
So when the slayer reached 18, the watchers make her helpless, lock her in a house, and unleash a monster on her. She dies and new, younger, more easily controlled slayer takes her place.
PS: the medication they injected Buffy with wasn't magic or anything, it was just muscle relaxants and adrenal suppressers. She wouldn't be able to train better with it.
Those pictures were taken with a camera that instantly develped the pictures
Out of all the episodes of Buffy, this is genuinly the one I find the scariest, because it feels so real.
The villain in this episode was played by Jeff Kober, he was already a seasoned supporting actor when he did this episode and I think it shows, this character was really charismatic and I truly believe it had more to do with his acting than the directing. He was very active in the 90's but you might have seen him more recently in Sons of Anarchy or The Walking Dead... By the way, the whole point of this series is that despite the craziness of the supernatural it's still relatable because everything that happens is a metaphor for the hardships that everyone goes through as a teenager. Also, you're going to be dissapointed with each and every character at some point because that's the way real life is, relationships of any kind are never easy, it takes hard work, flexibility and a lot of forgiveness to maintain relationships since nobody's perfect. Every character is deeply flawed because they are as real as they get, there's enough nonsense with the vampires, witches and demons, there was no point in making unrealistic characters 🙂
P.S. So glad you're enjoying these episodes! Honestly, season 3 is probably one of the very best. The rest of the s3 episodes ahead of you are ALL good. From what I recall, not a dud in the bunch. Buckle up and enjoy! (LOL)
Definitely not alone in your comments about the characters on the show - and that's why we're still watching and the show is still impressing new watchers 20 years later. Yes, the humour is there, the action is there, but most of all, the brilliantly realised, complex, and realistic characters are there, and that's what makes this show so great.
I always thought it was crazy how high and mighty the watchers council acts and how much they crap on Giles. There is one slayer at a time and Giles is her watcher!! He should be given the upmost repect!!
I agree, but I don't really think the Watchers Council care if the slayers lives or dies as long as she follows their orders, they might even like it if they die young, that way they can get more impressionable girls that will do as they wat. So in that regard if they feel like the watcher doesn't follow in line as well they wouldn't show him any respect.
He is nuts and he enjoys the pain.
This is one of those episodes that makes you think, how is it to best handle this situation? Clearly, the conclusion one comes to is that Giles should've told Buffy The Council's plan and then the two would keep it a secret between themselves.
It does indeed make narrative sense, that conscientious, thoroughly academic, prim and proper Giles follows The Council's orders, and Buffy's response of anger, confusion, and upset makes complete sense too. Buffy's response and Giles trying to explain himself is an emotional gut punch, and hard to watch, but damn good drama.
This episode feels palpably suspenseful due to a realistic feel, with Buffy fleeing in terror, and it elevates it with the Giles drama, one of season 3's best I think.
Ah the Council - you gotta love em... *cough*
oh yeah...
@@nickreacts6394 For years I failed to see what was wrong with the Council because in my head they were just a bunch of Gileses...I only recently realized Giles was *the exception* to the rule.😑💢
"No, we really don't."-The ENTIRE BTVS fanbase
Cordelia has had some mean moments, but she also has so many hilarious moments, and I really have to concur with her on this one: "Is the world ending again? I have to research a paper on Bosnia, but if the world's ending.... forget it." Lol! And I do love how quickly she notices Buffy being upset and agreeing to drive her home. How much she's grown since the first episode already, while still keeping her Cordelia essence: "If the world doesn't end, I'm going to need a note." 🤣
This episode has always been particularly memorable to me. The main vampire in this is super scary and does a great job. I would posit, though that the actual main antagonist is the Watcher’s Council. They are a fairly large group of old men who can wield the slayer as a weapon or tool and only see her as a means to an end. It’s a bit of objectification in the way that they see her as something other than a person - a literal object to be used. Joss used them as a metaphor for the patriarchy. They’re the worst and not that powerful without the slayer, but somehow the Slayer somewhat depends on this system. I’m glad that Giles rose above this system to actually defend Buffy
Jeff Kober plays the unstable Crazy Vampire in this episode of Buffy, he has a long list of TV and Movie credits (140 credits on IMDB) the latest credit is "Cyrus Renault" the Big Bad Mobster and recurring role on the daytime soap opera General Hospital ... He was played In "the Sons of Anarchy" and "the Walking Dead", an excellent Actor. As for Giles in his defense He is rather new as a watcher Buffy is his first Slayer and the Watchers Council have been around for Centuries, Giles grew up rebellious but went to the Watchers school and waited for his calling. So there is a part of Giles that still feels green new and He has this fear that if he doesn't follow the Council's orders (by following tradition in training that has gone on for Centuries) then He will be removed as Buffy's Watcher who he has grown to love as a Daughter figure but the loving rebellious part of Him is the one that got involved at the end to take out the last Vampire.
Faith is on one of her “unannounced walkabouts” because after the events of Revelations, she hasn’t really been hanging out with the Scoobies because she doesnt trust them/doesn’t think they’re really friends. Also, Buffy’s dads name is Hank Summers. This episode has always been super heartbreaking, especially Buffy’s reaction once she finds out what Giles has been up to (the betrayal on her face hurts), but I love at the beginning when she throws the vampire down the slide, he says “I’m going to kill you for that!” and she says “For that? What were you trying to kill me for before?”
"Faith is on one of her "“unannounced walkabouts”" because after the events of Revelations, she hasn’t really been hanging out with the Scoobies because she doesn't trust them/doesn’t think they’re really friends." Thank you!!! I run into so many people who don't understand that. Personally, I think every moment/episode/arc Faith misses can be highlighted by a previous episode issue where she had issues with the Scoobies.
@@Buffy8Fan You are everywhere and I love it! I was even disappointed not to find one of your comments under this video! :)
Unfortunately, people do not try to understand Faith's point of view, and prefer to side with the heroine....
@@reenmomo4501 I was typing it as you typed this but saw this comment as I was typing my comment.
S3 is my all time favourite..I mean look how good it's been & you still have half a season left.
Your reaction was mine watching this episode the first time. But then I understood that the only matter is power, to control the slayer and if she fails they get a new one.
The one thing that never made sense about this episode to me is that once Buffy realized the vampire had taken Joyce, why she just didn't get Angel to at least help. I mean, he has literal super powers.
I never noticed Buffy was disappointed by her dad and her watcher, but she understands Giles has more affection for her, unlike her dad. Well written and acted
a thing I just thought of why didn't Buffy or Giles go get Angel to help? I know Giles likely still hates Angel but this seems like the time to go to him.
Yes, I think this season had great episodes but (in my opinion) they were placed in the wrong order. Something like this episode should be 1) before Angel came back & 2) before Faith arrived. Among other misplaced episodes.
Thor Bro this episode is on top ten horror episodes and Buffy’s first time running from a vampire screaming and being a normal girl 👧 ps Giles is a traitor
Basically all big organizations are like the Watchers. They become successful due to very motivated and capable men who build it into an impressive force, only to become controlled by arrogant power-loving execs.
The main vampire of this episode reminded me of a young Gary Busey lol.
No spoilers, I promise.
I’m gonna make a drinking game…
Every time you make a prediction that makes me say, “Ohh just just wait” I take a sip.
Some of your predictions will not come to fruition in the way you might expect and it’s more satisfying. Hearing your speculations reminds me of when I watched Buffy the first time and all things seemed possible.
I always thought that the serum sapped a bit more then the slayers powers. Like having a fever added to having a normal body. So in fact she would be weaker as a regular person.
The villain is played by recent Daytime Emmy winner Jeff Kober (General Hospital).
It *would* have been interesting to see Buffy's relationship with Hank but the fact of the matter is Joss Whedon has issues and therefore his protagonists can't have healthy relationships with their fathers
When one Slayer falls, another is called. The Watchers Council is in charge of the Slayers's training, and their mission. And that is the case, whether the Slayer is a seasoned, self aware veteran, or a shiny new tween Slayer, who may or may not have just figured out how to get dessert without finishing her veggies, and who also would likely be more easily molded and manipulated, if need be. Seems like there's a slight possibility-and I know I'm going out on a limb here-but, a slight possibility that this scenario presents a small conflict of interests? Nah, probably not.
I for one have never made a mistaik in my life...
Great reaction!
Was so upset with Giles and felt so bad for Buffy that he betrayed her trust but at least he came through in the end.
Yeah thank goodness he had a change of heart!
It's been too long since I've seen this show back in the day, and then it was only sporadically. Been watching it with you now. But I'm starting to think the Watchers aren't necessarily protectors / guides in service of the Slayer. They're not just watching out for her, they're watching her. Testing the Slayers, making sure weak Slayers die early to not waste time training a weaker Slayer (since there can only be one - or two now - at a time they would want the strongest one they can get), potentially killing Slayers who turn evil or kill humans. The guiding seems secondary to all that.
Do not watch the intro for the first episode of Angel, if you are going to be watching the spinoff, spoilers.
The main vampire villian in this episode is actually in a few Buffy episodes (as different characters), & is currently on my soap opera (General Hospital).
The lack of consent and the Watchers Council's sense of entitlement was the point of the episode
Can we takr a moment to really appreciate Cordy in this episode. She had fallen out with the entire gang yet the second Buffy asks her for help, there is no sarcasm, no mean comments she just agrees. Like i'd argue Cordy is a better friend to Buffy than even Willow and Xander at times. Especially for someone who doesn't really care for Buffy that much.
A rare case of a freelance episode. David Fury pitched it (he and his wife did Go Fish, another freelance) and Joss, of course, made some changes like Giles being really fired at the end. The success of the episode and the lack of writers (at that point it was mostly Joss, Greenwalt, Marti, and recently Petrie and Espenson) granted Fury a real writer job starting next season. Actually, due to his experience, he began as de facto number 3 behind Marti and, of course, Joss.
Check out The Passion of the Nerds take on this episode . The Watchers Council is a Patriarchal organization . The Cruciamentum is about Control . Few Slayers survive the ordeal. That means the next slayer will be--more controllable. Teenagers rebel against Authority. This ordeal makes sure the Slayers stay young.No Slayer has lived past the age of 25.
if buffy was just meeting giles, do you honestly think buffy would ever forgive him?
You would make a great watcher, your training tips made me think. Is Buffy really building any strength at all, training the way she is? We know she heals faster, and is stronger than a regular human. Does this mean she builds more muscles faster, or less because she never trains at capacity?
I think the serial killer in this episode may be partly based on real world killer Ed Kemper, a giant man with a burning hatred for his mother.
It’s so great to see Buffy using her wits here. As a small female, it’s an unsettling reality to always be aware on some level that most could overpower you physically if they tried. And yes, I’d like to see Quentin fight a vampire.
„It this a Spider-Man 2 Moment? Loosing her Powers.“ 🤠You ARE a Part of the Scooby-Gang!
😄
It’s easy to call Giles a evil 😈 Demon, making it easy to separate his bad mistakes. Just Follow Orders is a big Rule in a Grown up Society: the Goverment. Like in X-Files: Trust no One. Back in they Day there was a big mistrust to Authority in 🇺🇸.😈
Another great episode for several reasons. I think this episode cements the father/daughter relationship Giles and Buffy even further, it's obvious that Giles is not the first Watcher to rebel against the Watcher's Council and makes me wonder how many times that has happened. While I can understand the idea of the test I terms of testing the Slayer's intelligence it is cruel to strip their powers from them. I believe the reason why the Watcher's Council are so cold to slayers are due to their short lifespans so they ended up seeing them as tools because of it, sure the majority of slayers are not legal adults as well as metaphors of the council but those ideas do fall flat when you look at history. Can't wait to see you reaction to the next episode Thor.
This for me is one of the best episodes of this season I love it I'm a big horror fan so it really clicks with me and the music is fab the ending with the show spelling out Giles love for Buffy is everything
You don't have any faith in Buffy without her powers?! How could you ever lose faith in Buffy?
I always thought it was interesting how buffy and her mum ended up moving to sunny Dale where the hellmouth is. How did Joyce decide this was where she needed to be. It's not like she is supernatural in any way as far as we know. Did the council act like some kind of illuminati esque force paying one of their watchers to open an art gallery and offer Joyce a job to get her to move there so the slayer was in the right location for her role in saving the world. I'd love to hear other people's theories on how Joyce was drawn to that place. What do you all think?
It had to be a city with a museum within driving distance of LA so Buffy could still see her father, and I’m sure I read or heard somewhere that sunnydale high was the only place that would take Buffy in after burning down her old school’s gym.
One of my favourites
Alrighty, so... I love debating. Give me any issue, and tell me which side I'm arguing, and I can always come up with *something*. So... I'm taking the challenge and justifying the Council's tradition.
There is always a Slayer. When one Slayer dies, another one rises immediately. Given that fact, there's not really a lot to "lose" if a Slayer doesn't pass the test, from a pure resources position. Since the tradition is done when a Slayer turns 18 (interestingly establishing that the majority of the time, Slayers are minors by modern standards when initially called) it would seem to suggest that the primary concern of the Watcher's Council is that aging Slayers lose some of their effectiveness. It's not likely to be a physical thing; more likely, it's about the Slayer's mental and emotional capacity. Perhaps in ages past, Slayers who lived long enough to realize what a raw deal it is have rejected their calling, or perhaps other cares in the world exerted an undue toll. The test, therefore, establishes a few things:
1) It ensures that the Slayer has enough wit and mental skill to continue to function effectively after their physical abilities naturally diminish with age.
2) It ensures that the Slayer is committed to the cause, both by providing empathy with the common person's plight and by ensuring that their minds are oriented to overcoming the challenges that the demonic threat represent.
3) It ensures that the Slayer knows that the Watcher's Council can disable her at will; not necessarily a bad thing to establish given the likelihood that a mature Slayer might resent and challenge their role (although given how Buffy reacted to the test, one might question the efficiency of that in modern times).
Put simply, it's quality control. Either they get a Slayer who demonstrates more than just her power, or they get a new Slayer. Win-win, for them.
Of course, all of that ignores the concept that the Slayer is a *human being with feelings*, but when you consider the course of human history in general, that's still a pretty novel concept overall.
Are all the tiers on Patreon watch along with your own copy of the show or are the higher tiers going to have the videos included?
I’m not sure if I read it or saw it in an interview, but I believe Kristine Sutherland actually is very scared of monsters. So, imagine how difficult making this episode must had been for her.
This is a tough episode for me. I don’t buy all the excuses everyone in the fandom makes for Giles. He is responsible for almost killing Buffy. What true father figure does that? Not to mention jeopardizing Joyce’s life in the ensuing chaos. And we are supposed to believe that everyone laughs about it at the end? Haha Xander will open the peanut butter…. If Joyce knew Giles was injecting her child with drugs would she really be cool with it? Just all swept under the rug apparently.
100%
The Council is a bunch of bastards, far less helpful in the fight than you think. The watchers less so (if lucky). Giles do risk deportion for being honest and Buffy could get a Travers type watcher, just viewing slayers to be canonfodder,kinda garanteeing her early demise. Giles was trying to protect them both. Besides Buffy and Giles are both rebels at heart.
Watchers whom were given Slayers were always told that the test was essential to their training and continued survival, however in my opinion this is completely false and the 'head' watchers actually sanctioned the test because an adult slayer wasn't as easily controlled as a child. If she dies during the test then another more 'controllable' child is activated. The Watchers Council don't see the Slayer as a person, but as a tool, when the tool stops working properly they replace it. Two problems with this, 1) killing Buffy wouldn't activate another slayer, since she died she's been removed from the direct slayer line (they'd have to kill Faith) and 2) Giles has a history of rebelling, he also doesn't bow down to those in a higher position of authority, as seen in his behaviour with Snyder. Putting a slayer who already does her own thing with a watcher with a history of rebelling against his destiny as a watcher was a terrible idea from the perspective of the council.
Cordelia can be a bitch, yes, but she has a good heart. That's why we love her. If you pay attention to what we get to know about her home life, her 'I'm better' - attitude makes sense and she uses it to mask the sweetheart she can be. As soon as Buffy asked her to please take her home in a very serious and hurt tone, she cut the sass and immediately said yes without hesitation.
aw sorry bro.. just started watching and im sorry u had to go through this.. it was really brutal to watch the first time... sarah is such an amazing actress and props to the actor who played this vampire
Well yes, the watcher's council sucks. They've been fighting a war for centuries but I feel like their methods haven't really evolved and maybe that's the point. They're a bunch of rich men (mostly) sitting in comfortable chairs deciding over the fates and lives of others.
I can understand that you're frustrated with a lot of characters' decisions at this point, but to me that's part of the beauty of the show. The characters (and relationships) aren't one-dimensional. They have layers, they constantly evolve in a realistic way and everyone makes mistakes (sometimes huges ones) they have to deal with.
It's a show about growing up. It's stuffed with amazing actors and the humor is just so good. I'm just amazed by how the show keeps on being both mature/dark/tragic and hilarious at the same time. Seven seasons and there isn't a single bad episode of Buffy. Maybe a hand full of okay ones, but they're usually somewhere on a scale from good to awesome. With at least three episodes actually beeing epic mind-blowing pieces of tv history. Can't wait for you to encounter them eventually ;)
Faith didn't have to go through this because she became a Slayer way after her 18th birthday not before
Actually, Faith is younger than Buffy (canonically), so her time is yet to come. I bet she’ll hear about it from Buffy and reject it.
@@markwright2705 Faith is not even in high school in the series she's older if you watched the show then you would know faith never had to go through that
I misspoke. No one “knows” how old Faith is for sure. But you make a good argument for her being older. I always assumed she just had a rough life and that made her grow up fast.
@@markwright2705 yeah I think she did have a rough life I think briefly she mentioned her parents but I think for the longest time she's been on her own and I'm sure she dropped out of school I think when she became a Slayer everything changed for her but no matter how many people she surrounded herself around she always felt completely and utterly alone
This episode outlines what a bunch of misanthropist bastards the Council actually is. If the Slayer passes the test, they have demonstrated the thumb that they have upon her (oh, not to mention her Watcher, despite the seeming denouement at the end.) Buffy is utterly violated in this episode, and it always makes me angry when I see this one. No spoilers, but Quentin's attitude is "Done it this way forever, if she dies another will be called." Eff-em.
Well, why would you have a mature, 18-19 year old slayer, who’s probably questioning things by this time, when you can have her ‘fail her test’ & thereby get a young, more easily controlled slayer.
It’s definitely a good thing they left for England, before Buffy got her strength back..😡
@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 I believe we are in violent agreement. And I suspect you might have also been through this series a few times, as have I.
Was always frustrated with this episode as well as I love Giles. I like to think he had faith that Buffy would pull through regardless, and he was also worried what the council would do if he disobeyed as well. I think that they didn't properly portray all of that though, and it's not until later that we potentially learn more about the Council. (The end result of him being fired is probably the minimum concerns he had outside Buffy being hurt). The episode is jarring I feel like because it feels out of place for Giles to me though and I always found it frustrating.
Polaroids develop themselves. No need for a darkroom or anything.
this council that controls everything, especially a young girl they use to do all their work is run by out of touch white men?! im shocked! SHOCKED! but really i love this episode. its so good. but also so sad. first her dad totally lets her down,and then her actual father figure not only doesnt pick up on that andcome through for her there but then betrays her as well. and shes so hurt and its so justified. but i also feel bad for giles. he answers to people above him. and there are things he has to do. and there are consequences. like he did not follow through here and now hes fired and someone else will be in charge of what buffy does. thats a BIG consequence. and he does love her like a father. that moment at the end is so powerful and she does see it and know he is there. the thing about the serum he was injecting her with was that its not no more slayer powers. like he said its a compound that has some herbs and stuff but also muscle relaxers. her working out does nothing if you pump her full of muscle relaxers. thats why she couldnt climb the fence ect. it doesnt take away her being a slayer, it takes away her ability to use her muscles properly which is strength, aim, ect. the whole idea is to use your brain and not rely on your body all the time. but it was dangerous and cruel. and i dont know why they couldnt at least do it as a test she knows is happening. i think that would solve a lot of the trust issues that come with it. but i thinkt hat giles relationship with her is not the typical. think of kendra. she would not have questioned this test. she would have been like this is my training and i should be able to do it. they are doing what they think is best. buffy just isnt that way and giles is kind of a rebel. welp, new watcher time. that can only go well.
This guy missed SO MUCH. She was injected with muscle relaxers. It’s not about Buffy’s training.
I actually don't remember this one at all but I really enjoyed it. First of all...when you said "this is inadvisable" with Buffy and Angel at the beginning, I was like..."C'mon, let the Bangel fans have this moment. Please!" hahaha. As for Giles...this was so difficult for me. I agree that what he did was wrong. It's a betrayal 100%...but knowing how much he truly loves Buffy as a daughter, I just couldn't bring myself to be mad at him. I also understand how hard that must have been for Giles who is so use to following the rules. Then there's his job as a Watcher, which I think he sees as his identity. I feel like it's more than a job for him...So, I dunno, maybe I have too much of a soft spot for Giles to be impartial here. I will say that the scene with Buffy at the end where Giles helps with her wound is one of my favourite scenes of the episode. He really is the father figure she never had and that was so beautifully acted. Final point about Buffy not being able to climb a fence. I felt attacked! haha. I don't think I could've done it personally...however, you're right...Buffy has been training so I don't understand why she had zero muscle strength in those scenes?? PS: "they're not stones, they're minerals" snap, snap, snap. I thought the exact same thing! I seriously need to get a t-shirt with Hank's quote 😂
00:53 - 00:58 ...or the Watchers...🙄💢
01:55 - 01:57 Speak for yourself!🙄I wish I could see them *NEVER AGAIN!!!* 😠💢
04:29 - 04:41 Yeah,keep dreaming...🙄🙄🙄
06:28 - 06:37 Same.😣 06:43 - 06:45 Hank.Hank Summers.
08:25 - 08:32 Aaww!🥺💔
09:55 - 09:58 Said the girl with literal superhuman powers.X-P
11:06 Always...!!!T^T 💞
12:01 - 12:28 I love them so much!!!😭💛🖤I will never not ship them!!! 12:29 - 12:36 C'mon,how can you *not* love these 2 dorks?!😄💞
13:33 - 13:59 Little Red Riding Hood...X-[
Sarah's performance in the betrayal scene though...!!!😭💔
15:44 - 15:49 🥺💜💛I love it when these 2 support each other! 15:51 - 16:03 But yeah,only Cordy can be that funny in that scenario...!😆💜
17:05 - 17:17 True.And since he's not a character I used to like,I manage to enjoy him *much more* as a Villain!😎👿
17:19 - 17:24 Faith in Faith...LOL.😄🤎
20:18 - 20:41 😎👏👏👏👏👏
The test in itself could be potentially very useful...I mean..it COULD happen that a Slayer would have to fight without her powers(for example if they were taken by a spell from a magical opponent)so it's actually smart to make her develop other stuff like cleverness and strategy,but you know what's stupid about that test?That if it fails they just let the Slayer to die instead of giving her backup.And TPN's Buffy Guide explained why they make the test that way.Those assholes actually *don't want* the Slayers to pass it!When a Slayer starts to grow too much she can become more difficult to control,so they wanna replace her with a younger one they can still have power over on.😣💢That's why the entire Council is trash and only Giles deserves rights among them!🤍
25:55 - 27:24 Let me introduce you to"The Wilds"...
33:40 - 34:11 You're a genius!😎🙌You really *should* be a Watcher!...Unless the Slayer's body can build a resistence to that serum so each time you'd need to take more in order for it to be effective...:-S
Polaroids
It's too bad the entertainment industry isn't like real technology.
Calculus based on Trigonometry based on algebra based on arithmetic,..etc.
This show, BTVS, 25 years ago was groundbreaking, original and cutting edge.
Some of the current marvel, vampire, star wars, superhero academy crap fails to apply any good fundamentals from BTVS.
No I agree to do this test absolutely didn't make any damn sense to me at all Sir Anthony Stewart who played Giles he did this pisses me off any feelings I know but I watch this episode and I watch all of these episodes 1 holes out over my knee and Walkers relax British behind then again I also wanted to look for the other council members fine